April 23, 2021 • 38 mins
Herbert Cukurs invited "Anton Kuenzle" to visit him at his home, not knowing, of course, "Kuenzle" is the spy Mio, undercover. So the spy prepares for the meeting. He doesn't know what Cukurs wants, which was the real question. Most spies use a handful of motives to get people to do what they want: money, sex, patriotism. But Cukurs was an odd fish. He seemed to want to be a hero again, to be beloved. The spy couldn’t offer him that - so what could he dangle in front of the Butcher?
“Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher" came out of Stephan Talty's work on a related book, The Good Assassin. Explore other parts of this story in the book: Buy The Good Assassin
The spy decides on his approach. He will dangle a chance at redemption in front of the Butcher: a last shot at riches and fame. That was the bait.
Cukurs suggests the two of them take a trip inland — he owned two plantations there. The long trip gives Cukurs a chance to see if they're being tailed. If the spy had people following him, they would be exposed on the deserted roads. The Butcher was hunting the spy as much as the spy was hunting him.
“Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher” is written and hosted by Stephan Talty. Produced and directed by Scott Waxman and Jacob Bronstein. Executive Producers: Scott Waxman and Mark Francis. Story editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman and Mangesh Hattikudur. Editing, mixing, and sound design by Mark Francis. With the voices of: Nick Afka Thomas, Omri Anghel, Andrew Polk, Mindy Escobar-Leanse, Steve Routman, and Stefan Rudnicki. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Archival research by Adam Shapiro. Thanks to Oren Rosenbaum at UTA.
Special thanks to Kevin Anderson and the Anderson family for permission to use the Jack Anderson recording, Leah Richardson and the Special Collections Research Center at George Washington University Library, and Ron Saah.
Learn more about Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Diversion podcasts. This episode contains descriptions of graphic violence and
scenes of genocide. Listener's discretion is advised. Mio was back
(00:30):
in sal Polo. He'd had a few close brushes on
his trip to Brazilia. We had almost been spotted by
some Israeli friends, but his cover was still intact. At
his hotel, Mio found business letters and telegrams waiting for him,
requesting your authorization to close the hundred thousand dollar deal
(00:50):
we discussed prior to your departure. Read one. The letters
looked real, but they weren't. Mio's massad boss back in Paris,
Joseph your Reeve, had sent them in case. The butcher
was checking up on his new friend Anton kunz La
while he was out of town. Herbert Suckers had invited
(01:12):
kunz La to visit him and his family at his home,
so me was getting ready for the meeting. He had
no idea what would happen, but they would ask him.
He didn't even know what Suckers wanted, which was a
real question. Most spies use a handful of motives to
get people to do what they want. Money, sex, patriotism, resentment.
(01:32):
You've seen things like that in the movies, they're all
easy ways into somebody's life. But suckers, he was not fish.
He seemed to want to be a hero again, to
be beloved. Neo couldn't offer him that. It was beyond
his powers. So what could he dangle in front of
the butcher? Here's former U. S. Army intelligence officer Chris Costa,
(01:56):
so human intelligence officers. They are rain to be a
little bit psychologist, a little bit body language expert. They
are also a father confessor. There are a rabbi, they're
a priest. They're a friend. They're a teacher, they're a mentor,
(02:17):
they're a coach, they're a student. They have to adapt.
But all along the way, you are looking for clues
as to what motivates this individual that I have to manipulate.
Neal would have to play amateur psychologists. He sat on
his hotel bed. He thought back to his meeting with Sukers,
(02:40):
and he asked himself a few questions. What was the
butcher missing in his life? What did the butcher really want?
And how could he give the butcher that one thing
he lacked? I tried to imagine what had gone through
Uker's mind since our so called accidental earst encounter that
(03:01):
had ended over a glass of brandy in the cabin
of his boat. It was clear that Herbert Stookers missed
the days of glory as deputy commander of the Rigor Ghetto.
Then he had been almost an almighty god. At least
(03:22):
where's the life and death of the Jews of Riga
was concerned. He most probably recalls those days fondly, when
he was at the zenith of his power, treated with
great reverence and fear by anyone who saw him riding
on horseback through the streets of the ghetto, clasped heavy handgun,
(03:44):
clad in his black leather pilot's court. Then he had
unlimited power, the power to determine the fate of other people.
How he must long for those days which seem now
looking through the window of the shabby ticket office of
(04:04):
his undown both rental business like a mirage produced by
in memory sells with an overdeveloped imagination. I'm Stephen Talty
(04:27):
in this as good assassin's hunting the butcher, So he's
the first part was to find and not be looking forward,
while for the second part was to find a nag
and healing. He shot fast and see expertise that comes
from experience, the end of a trail of blood and horror,
(04:47):
in the end of a man whose name will be
written in infamy. M Episode five, Baiting the hook. Sitting there,
(05:16):
Mio began to feel his way into Zuker's life. He
thought about this former superstar pilot now working as a
kind of grease monkey. How far this man had fallen
in the world. Question one? What was the Butcher missing
in his life? Respect? The Jewish activists who discovered Suckers
living in Rio hadn't managed to get him deported or arrested,
(05:38):
but they had badly damaged his public image. Zuckers was
a social outcast now, and it was clear he hated it.
Question too. If making him a hero was out of
the question, was there anything that could substitute for it?
Mio thought about that a narcissist like Suckers, he wants
(05:58):
what he used to have, power and fame. The Butcher
wanted people to look up to him. Back in Latvia,
he'd been a winner, He was beloved, and he liked
that a lot. So Question three, how could MEO get
the Butcher or pretend to get the Butcher? The power
that he so clearly wanted. They could always start with money.
(06:19):
Money would buy Zookers new suits, and it would buy
him new glasses to replace the taped up ones he'd
been wearing at the docks. First came money, then respect,
then power. It was an age old formula, but it worked.
Me was guessing at all this he had no idea
really what was in the butcher's heart. But as it
turned out, he'd come very close to the truth. Again,
(06:42):
Chris Costa, this is ultimately, this particular case is an
incredible example of looking every step of the way to
understand what motivates this target so that I can set
up the ultimate trap. And I think in this case
he was motivated by wanting to regain something that he lost.
(07:06):
He wanted more financial stability, He wanted to be an
important person again, so he was vulnerable to a great
business opportunity with somebody he trusted. In. Doing my research,
I came across an interview that Sucker's wife had later
given to police. She told them that when Zuker's first
(07:26):
started getting successful in Brazil, he told his friends he
was going to quote create a great club and found
a school of seaplane pilots, unlike anything that had ever
existed in Brazil. Not only that, he wanted to build
a new airplane engine that would revolutionize the industry. His
dream had always been to be a pioneer, to shock
(07:47):
the world with his genius in building airplanes. All he
needed was an investor to help him with money. Meal
didn't know about any of these dreams, but he'd somehow
detected what Sukers was looking for. A backer, someone to
believe in him. Who knows, maybe with the help of
(08:11):
Kunzle and his backer's capital, he will finally be able
to pull himself out of this dismal existence, all of
his on the verge of poverty, and become rich, a
respectable member of society, and and read himself of the
persecution of the Jews that had been beleaguing him for years.
(08:33):
The American reporter Jack Anderson, who traveled to Brazil in
nineteen sixty to cover Nazi fugitives, sensed it too. Suckers
wanted to rehabilitate himself, and both Anderson and Mio offered
him a shot. So interestingly, Zookers turned up the charm
and trotted out a very similar routine for both Meo
(08:53):
and Jack Anderson. I think that he was afraid, not
so much of the publicity as he was of the Jews.
I think one of the reasons that he may have
been willing to talk to me was to present his
case how he had saved this girl, and how he
was not a Jew killer, and how he had been misrepresented. So,
(09:18):
sitting on his hotel bed, Neil decided on his approach
he would dangle a chance at redemption in front of
the butcher, a last shot at riches and fame. That
was the bait. Neo got into his rented v W
and followed the directions that seekers had given him to
(09:40):
his house. When he turned the corner onto the final street,
he found he was in a normal, boring suburb lined
with modest homes. Here's how Anderson describes it. It was
about twenty miles, as I recall, out of dirt road,
out of kind of a remote but very pastoral setting
outside of So Paulo, comparable to a lakeside development where
(10:06):
wealthy people might have bungalows. Couldn't have been more peaceful
looking place. It was almost a postcard tranquility. And when
I got there there were three seaplanes. You are enough sitting,
three of them sitting anchored near his house, and two
(10:27):
big burly guards at his gate. It was easy to
spot the Sucre's residence. In fact, it stuck out like
a sore thumb. The house was completely surrounded by a
high fence topped with barbed wire. The German shepherd that
year Reeve had warned him about was barking at me
O through the fence, showing its teeth. The house was
pretty basic and there was a garden shed in the yard.
(10:49):
It confirmed me as guests clearly Sucers was hurting for money.
The butcher emerged from the house spotted me O getting
out of the VW. His face broke into a wide
grin and he called out to Meo, saying how glad
he was to see him. Sucers tied up the German
shepherd and invited his guest inside. Here's how Anderson describes
(11:12):
meeting Suckers. I approached the gate and asked identified myself
and asked for him, And one of these two big
burly guards goes up to the door and knocks on
the door, and a guy comes out. He's thirty yards away,
forty yards away. The waves still need to come on in,
(11:34):
and so they let me in and I walked in,
and it was kind of chilling because he was wearing
a leather jacket. Not read all the stuff. He was
wearing this leather jacket. When he turned around open the door,
he had a pistol book and out of his back pocket.
Kind of chilling. He invited me in and we talked
to Great Lane. As he entered the house, his eyes
(11:59):
darted around the here he was looking for signs of
the past. During the years nineteen forty one nineteen forty four,
Zukers had a messed a small fortune robbed from his
Jewish victims, but he had to leave most of it
in Latvia when he escapes the Red Army to the
(12:21):
vest and the remains of the stolen goods had to
be sold in order to finance the long escape route
from Riga to South Paolo. Now, as he studied Sucers home,
Nero realized that the money and the jewels they were
long gone. There were no chandeliers or grand pianos here.
The rooms were modestly furnished, even a little shabby. It
(12:43):
was a good sign his instincts have been right. The
butcher introduced me out to his children and to his wife, Milda,
a thin woman with messy hair. She looked frazzled or
maybe anxious. Sucers brought me over to a wooden chest,
and he pulling out medals and ribbons and showing them
to me O. He was clearly proud of them. Most
(13:05):
of them were for daring trips to Africa Japan once
he'd made in the thirties when he was a world
famous pilot. He was showing me O that he had
once been somebody. Neo nodded and congratulated Sukers. His eyes
drifted around the drawer. He spotted a bunch of other medals.
These ones they were different, They had swastikas on it.
(13:30):
Clearly they had nothing to do with aviation. This was
for work Zukers had done during the war. At ze moments,
I preferred not to think of the activities for which
Chukos had been a wall did these declarations. Here's how
Jack Anderson describes getting a similar tour from Zuker's and
(13:52):
I at some point asked him a question that required
him to look up some papers or documents, and the
open the closet. It was by the front door. They
opened the closet, and they're hanging. In that closet was
a row of Nazi uniform and all freshly pressed, complete
(14:14):
with a swastika. He made a big point. I remember
doing the discussion. He denied the atrocities, which I would
expected him to, but spoke crudely of Jews, you know,
us him I'm not a Jew killer, saying it contemptuously,
as if he wishes he were. And his greatest evidence
(14:36):
of that was that he had helped a Jewish girl escape.
And I talked to people about it and they said, yes,
that's correct. He did help, and there was an obvious ploy,
so that if he ever got caught, he would This
was going to be his great excuse, his great justification
for not having his own neck wrong. What do you mean,
(14:58):
I'm a Jew killer? I save this girl? And he
did save this girl, but he killed many others and
raped many others, but he saved one. I was told
by the Jews themselves. Yes he didn't save one girl.
I mean he did that to create an alibi for himself.
What came next was even more disturbing. Seekers opened another
(15:22):
drawer and Mio immediately saw guns. There were two pistols. Apperetta,
a German mauser, and a semi automatic rightful. All the
evidence that I saw around there checked completely with the
file that I had, even to the point that it
made the hair on back of my next stand up.
It checked completely with him with what was in the
(15:43):
file in these affidavits, The way he acted his physical appearance,
where he dressed the pistol in the back of his pocket,
his his arrogant attitudes is brutal. Ways. He wasn't brutal
to me. Of course, he wasn't brutal, but he conducted
himself like a man who would be brutal. I would
(16:03):
have hated to build his prisoner in that place. I'll
tell you that his big brutal look of brutal talking.
So I came away convinced that he was exactly what
the Jews said. He was just struck me as a
kind of a guy who would have probably enjoyed kicking
me around secrets. Was having a good time picking up
(16:27):
each gun and showing it off. He leaned over to
Mio and told him he knew how to take good
care of himself. Meo wondered why Zukers was showing him
the weapons he was posing as a developer, and Sucris
was auditioning for a job. It's not as if you
need an arsenal to sell real estate. Was the butcher
(16:47):
trying to prove to Meo that he'd once been a soldier?
Or was it a warning? Maybe Sucres suspected that Meo
really wasn't who he said he was. Neo couldn't figure
it out, not yet, but he felt exposed. The lack
of backup he'd insisted on now seemed foolish. Nia realized
it wouldn't be easy to eliminate this man. He was
(17:10):
crafty and suspicious. Suckers brought Meo out to the workshed
showed him some pictures he developed. He'd taken them from
his plane, and they covered different areas of the city
that might be right for investment. After the scare over
the guns was a positive sign. Showed that Sukers was
interested in working on the real estate stuff. He was
(17:32):
hungry and that was a good thing. Afterwards, the family
sat in the living room. Suckers was talkative, but his
sons and daughters they were kind of awkward. They didn't
say a lot. Mean got the sense that the family
didn't get many visitors. Though some resilience had defended Suckers
when he was accused of being the Butcher, many others
(17:53):
they had abandoned him. He'd lost friends, the family seemed
starved for company. Anton Kouzla Uh was a lifeline. Neil
could feel how much the Zookers needed a savior. As
they munched on cake and sip coffee, the kids loosened
up a bit. They began asking Kunzla about the future.
(18:14):
He assured them that he was planning big things for Brazil.
He and his partners were serious about investing and making
a lot of money there, and their father he was
part of their big plans. If you're this far into
the story, we're assuming you're enjoying Hunting the Butcher. If
(18:35):
you're listening on Apple podcasts, would you be able to
take a minute to give the show a rating and
a review. Just find the show's page on Apple Podcasts,
scrolled down to the section called Ratings and Reviews and
tap one of those purple stars to give it a rating.
Then tapped a little purple link that says write a
review and leave a few words about what you think
(18:56):
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out and let other listeners know about the podcast. Much appreciated.
Now on with the show. Later, he and Zukers drove around.
(19:17):
They were looking at properties that could become vacation resorts.
Neo feigned interest, but he was thinking about how to
get the butcher out of the country. If Zukers had
shown him the most beautiful plot of land in Brazil,
he wouldn't have cared. He was building trust dependence. Zuker
says that Kunsla was bored the places he'd shown him
(19:38):
weren't doing the trick, so he came up with an idea.
The two of them should take a trip inland away
from the coast. He told the secret agent they owned
two plantations there. Maybe they'd be right for MEO's tourism business.
Neo immediately agreed. It would be like a boy's trip,
an adventure. They can relax on the way to the plantations,
(19:58):
they could bond. I should point out here that me
was violating almost every rule of working undercover, especially when
your target was as dangerous as the Butcher was. And
it doesn't surprise Chris Costa. So in many cases you
are so you're a singleton. You're alone, you don't have
a backup, you don't have a quick reaction force, you
(20:21):
don't have the ability to simply call for help. There's
no switch you can activate that sends a message that
you're at risk. So this is where you have to
constantly assess the risk and the amount of risk you're
willing to accept. Usually, an espionage work, if there's a
(20:46):
risk your cover will be blown and you'll be exposed.
You try to keep your interactions to public places that
are easy to escape from, or where a killer might
feel reluctant to shoot you, because there could be witnesses.
So you keep your meeting to the safest places you
can think of, not plantations out in the middle of nowhere.
(21:06):
Saucers was proposing going into the back country, the two
of them alone. It was super risky. If Mio had
passed the idea by his boss, your reeve, you probably
would have said no. But your read was thousands of
miles away and Mia was flying solo. He agreed to go.
(21:27):
Meo could see that Sucers was starting to dream about
the future, to get excited. That's what Mio wanted. In
the morning, Meal's first stop was to a sporting goods store.
He felt strange about going with Suckers into the jungle unarmed,
so he bought a small knife. He would have preferred
(21:50):
a gun or something more lethal, but he couldn't conceal
a gun, so he had this thing that was really
a glorified pen knife. Most massad agents would laugh at
such a weapon. What are you going to do with that?
But it was the best Meal could think of. When
Mea arrived at Suker's house, the butcher emerged carrying supplies,
(22:10):
canned food and other things, and his other hand was
a long bag. Meio knew what that was and he froze.
It was the rifle he'd seen the day before. Why
was the butcher bringing a long gun to the jungle,
Neil began to get nervous. There was one other detail
he worried about. On the drive to the plantations, he
(22:32):
like most Jewish men, was circumcised, but his cover was
an Austrian businessman, and Austrian most likely wouldn't be circumcised.
So how would Mio explain if the two of them
went to take a leak in jungle and Suckers glanced over?
He had to prepare for everything. He decided to tell
the butcher that he'd gotten the sexually transmitted disease during
(22:55):
the war, and that doctors had performed in operation. Soldiers
were always getting syphilis and things like that. They could
laugh about it, reminisce about the war. Maybe it would work.
The long trip to the plantations would also give Zukers
a chance to see if they were being tailed. If
Mio had people following him, some kind of a backup team,
(23:17):
they would be exposed on the deserted roads. At least
for now, MEO's decision to come to Brazil solo look smart.
It was hot, a typical Brazilian day. Finally they drove
up to the first plantation. It was disappointing, a small
(23:40):
plot of land, not much to look at. Meo shook
his head. There was nothing out here. Why would Sukers
think this would be a good spot for an expensive resort.
It had been a waste of time. They got back
in the car and headed to the second place. This
one it was much more promising, a huge farm with
thousands of banana trees, the leaves swaying in the breeze.
(24:03):
It was pretty impressive. Actually, at least there was room
for a hotel and maybe a swimming pool. It might
work as a tourist destination. There was one other thing.
The place was completely deserted, like not a soul in sight.
Neo parked the car and got out. Zukers did too.
Then he reached back in and grabbed the rifle. Zukers
(24:27):
asked me to take a short walk. He pointed to
a small path leading to an uncultivated area full of
trees and tall bushes and tells me it leads to
a small river swarming with crocodiles. Meal appeared perfectly calm,
(24:47):
but inside he was tense. Something was very wrong. Clearly
the trip wasn't about real estate ventures or plots of land.
You could dismiss bringing a rifle along. Leave the plantations
had wild animals. But the butcher wasn't even trying to
talk up the place as a tourist destination. He was
up to something else. Suckers had brought him here to
(25:10):
see if Kula really was who said he was. I
knew that Zukers was observing my reactions closely, and hastened
to accept tiso without any hesitation. They walked down the
path and stopped at a small clearing, where Sukers took
the rifle out of the bag. Suckers asked me, oh
for shooting match. If he'd really been on the Eastern Front,
(25:32):
he should know how to shoot along gu Sucers pointing
to a tree about fifty yards away. There was a
metal plate nailed to the trunk that would be the target.
You're being led in the jungle to shoot with a
guy that you know has already killed people with his
own hands. Is this yet again? Are you being tricked
(25:54):
and manipulated by somebody that certainly was vicious and displayed
viciousness during World War Two and a propensity to kill
people All of a sudden, You're alone on some plantation.
Is this a setup? Are you going to be killed?
I had no doubt in my mind that the shooting
competition was no spoiler of the moment idea. It was
(26:19):
a well planned move by Zukers, intended to put me
to the test and maybe even beyond it. Mio also
realized that if it came to a fight, his little
pocket knife wasn't going to be much use. Zukers loaded
ten bullets into the rifle and sighted the plate hanging
on the tree. He let off ten shots, one right
(26:41):
after the other. You could tell he knew how to
handle a gun. He shot fast, with the expertise that
comes from experience, a large part of which had been
the clad by shooting naked and petrofied Jews in the
head in the Valley of the Dead in Rombula Forest.
(27:02):
The Rambola forest was the place near Riga where the
Nazis had murdered twenty five thousand Jews in the winter
of Suker. Shots all hit their target within two inch radius.
He'd done well. He handed the rifle to Mio. I
could see out of the corner of my eye how
(27:22):
he followed my every move, waiting to find out whether
I was an imposta. I had to reach military best.
From the minute I had taken this mission upon myself,
Anton kuns had become an inseparable part of me. Meo
(27:42):
pulled the trigger again and again. When he was finished,
the two men walked towards the tree. Me was praying,
you'd at the target. When they studied the plate, it
turned out that meal shots were clustered in the center.
He'd done even better than Zukers. The butcher seemed excited.
He cried out, way to go and slap me on
the shoulder. Like many soldiers, he placed a lot of
(28:05):
weight on whether a man could shoot a gun. I
us almost completely convinced I was all right. As of
that moment, It's the atmosphere between us became much lighter,
as if the shooting match was some male ritual of
the two former comrades and alms in the service of
(28:26):
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(29:09):
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test was over Meo he passed. The two men walked
back along the path. As he went, Leo felt a
sharp jab in his foot. A nail had gone through
(29:32):
the bottom of his boot and pierced the skin. He
sat down, took off the boot and looked at the cut.
Seekers was standing above him holding the stock of the rifle.
Suddenly he handed the gun to Meo and told him
to pound the nail down so it wouldn't cut him again.
The magazine in the canvas loaded van bullet in his
(29:55):
head at the point BLANKO inch another bulletins are hot
to ascertain death and the mission is complete, they thought.
By the time they find them hearing this remote corners about,
I should be long on to Europe. Do you decide
that you're going to take this mission in your own hands?
(30:17):
And despite the plan that you're developing, are you going
to kill this guy? It was tempting, but in the
end he couldn't do it. The butcher had to die
in a certain way, almost a ceremonial way, for the
mission to succeed. The team had to read a verdict
out and this had to happen in the country that
wouldn't endanger Jews. It was just too soon, and it
(30:39):
took an incredible amount of discipline. But intelligence officers always
have to keep in mind that they have a plan.
There's a logic for that plant. Who could have known
that you would end up on a plantation alone with
no help, shooting a weapon with the target of your
later assassination him. So the amount of discipline and courage
(31:03):
it took to to not use that weapon when you
had it in your hand while you're executing a target practice.
The amount of discipline I took him not to end
the mission right then and there is extraordinary. Neil pounded
down the nail. He got up. The two made their
way back to the caretaker's hut. Were sukers, fixed dinner
(31:24):
from the camed food he brought. Darkness had closed in
and they sat on their camp beds, getting ready to sleep.
Neil was thinking of the past. I remember Tuesday's day,
the moments of the pouture from my family and hometown,
and the whistle of the train as it slowly rolled
(31:46):
out of the main station, adorned with dozens of huge
Nazi flags. It still rings in my ears. My parents
stood on the platform and raved goodbye to the fifteen,
the old sound traveling on his way to a far
off land. At that moment, I felt I was cutting
(32:09):
myself off from everything Chong, preparing to become a proud
Jew in the land of Israel. I could not help
but to think of my family exterminated by murder. Was
similar to the man who said less than a meter
away from me from testimonies, I guessed. After the war,
(32:32):
I learned that my father died in Tisan stat in May.
A short while afterwards, my mother was transported to Auschwitz, where,
together with millions of other Jews, she was murdered by
the Nazis, who were assisted by monsters like Suckers. Now
(32:58):
the butcher was only a few is away. It felt
surreal to Meo and an odd way. Suckers was a
kind of connection to Mio's own family. Suckers had been
there in the middle of the action. He had been
close enough to touch the Jewish men and women as
they were marched to the death pits. I wonder if
(33:22):
Mio was asking himself the same questions I've been asking
for the past three years. Why had Suckers done it?
Why had he betrayed those people? Mio had the ultimate
chance to get the answer straight from a Nazi. The
guy was sitting right there next to him. But Mio,
when he recalled that moment later on, didn't talk about motives.
(33:44):
He just seemed to accept that Suckers was evil or
just responsible. The why didn't seem to bother him. He
wanted to kill the butcher, not psychoanalyze him. That bothers me.
To be honest, is it pointless to ask why Zukers
became a killer? If MEO felt satisfied that he understood
(34:05):
the butcher, maybe I should be too. But after thinking
about it, I can't agree. Saying Zukers had done evil
things wasn't the same as saying that he was a
pent evil. There has to be a way to get
closer to his actual reasons for doing what he did.
The moment passed, Niel saw Zukers slip a pistol under
(34:28):
his pillow. There wasn't anyone around for miles, but the
butcher was still on his card. Hours later, in the
darkness of the small hut, he woke up. He saw
Zuker standing up and taking the gun from underneath the pillow.
My heart started to race. What was he doing? What's
(34:49):
to be on the safe side. I grabbed my personal weapon.
It's a poor small pocket knife I had purchased in
South Boodo. Zukers turned and walked outside. He was just
going to take a leak with his gun. It was
almost comical to me. I could not believe the butcher
expected an ambush in the middle of the Brazilian jungle.
(35:11):
How much harder would it be to assassinate him in
a foreign country when his paranoia was sure to be
even more pumped up. I'm sure Mio had the same thoughts.
Zukers was going to make the kidnapping of Ada Kman
look easy. When I spoke to get sh Imran, the
Massot agent who knew me O, he commented on this,
(35:31):
no doubt that Meal was aware that course is not
an easy target. Of course was suspicious. He was aware
that he is on the wanted list of some of
the survivors of the Holocaust. And he I mean, first
of all, his awls looked like a like a wild wist,
(35:53):
fortifications like al aloid. He had guns at home, the
dog bobbed wires, Etceteraight off. It was very, very suspicious
of anybody trying to get too close. Socus from time
to time expressed his suspicious that something is wrong with
this nice off them businessman or boat of lore appeared
(36:15):
in like life with the promises for golden future and
excellent business and as we know so was still the
last moment, was not fully sure that the meal is kosher.
Sorry for using this Jewish word in this case. Finally
(36:38):
Mia went to sleep. He couldn't solve the puzzle yet.
He had to get closer to this Nazi. He needed
more time. He felt he and Sukers had made a
kind of breakthrough in the jungle. The guy trusted Kunzla,
or at least it felt like he trusted him, but
he was about to find out that Bond was fragile.
(36:59):
The Butcher, as it turned out, was hunting Meo as
much as Meo was hunting him. Good assassins. Hunting the
Butcher is a production of Diversion Podcasts in association with
(37:20):
I Heart Radio. This season is written and hosted by
Stephen Tulting, produced and directed by Scott Waxman and Jacob Bronstein.
Executive producers Scott Waxman and Mark Francis. Story editing by
Jacob Bronstein, with editorial direction from Scott Waxman and mangesh
At Ticket or editing, mixing and sound designed by Mark
(37:41):
Francis with the voices of Nick Avka Thomas Amrie, Angele
Andrew Polk, Mindy Escobar, Leants, Steve Rautman, and Stefan Rudnitsky.
Theme music by Tyler Cash. Archival research by Adam Shapiro,
thanks to Oran Rosenbaum at you d A. A special
(38:05):
thank you to Kevin Anderson and the Anderson family for
permission to use the Jack Anderson recording, Leah Richardson and
the Special Collections Research Center at George Washington University Library
in ron Saw diversion
Diversion podcasts. This episode contains descriptions of graphic violence and
scenes of genocide. Listener's discretion is advised. Mio was back
(00:30):
in sal Polo. He'd had a few close brushes on
his trip to Brazilia. We had almost been spotted by
some Israeli friends, but his cover was still intact. At
his hotel, Mio found business letters and telegrams waiting for him,
requesting your authorization to close the hundred thousand dollar deal
(00:50):
we discussed prior to your departure. Read one. The letters
looked real, but they weren't. Mio's massad boss back in Paris,
Joseph your Reeve, had sent them in case. The butcher
was checking up on his new friend Anton kunz La
while he was out of town. Herbert Suckers had invited
(01:12):
kunz La to visit him and his family at his home,
so me was getting ready for the meeting. He had
no idea what would happen, but they would ask him.
He didn't even know what Suckers wanted, which was a
real question. Most spies use a handful of motives to
get people to do what they want. Money, sex, patriotism, resentment.
(01:32):
You've seen things like that in the movies, they're all
easy ways into somebody's life. But suckers, he was not fish.
He seemed to want to be a hero again, to
be beloved. Neo couldn't offer him that. It was beyond
his powers. So what could he dangle in front of
the butcher? Here's former U. S. Army intelligence officer Chris Costa,
(01:56):
so human intelligence officers. They are rain to be a
little bit psychologist, a little bit body language expert. They
are also a father confessor. There are a rabbi, they're
a priest. They're a friend. They're a teacher, they're a mentor,
(02:17):
they're a coach, they're a student. They have to adapt.
But all along the way, you are looking for clues
as to what motivates this individual that I have to manipulate.
Neal would have to play amateur psychologists. He sat on
his hotel bed. He thought back to his meeting with Sukers,
(02:40):
and he asked himself a few questions. What was the
butcher missing in his life? What did the butcher really want?
And how could he give the butcher that one thing
he lacked? I tried to imagine what had gone through
Uker's mind since our so called accidental earst encounter that
(03:01):
had ended over a glass of brandy in the cabin
of his boat. It was clear that Herbert Stookers missed
the days of glory as deputy commander of the Rigor Ghetto.
Then he had been almost an almighty god. At least
(03:22):
where's the life and death of the Jews of Riga
was concerned. He most probably recalls those days fondly, when
he was at the zenith of his power, treated with
great reverence and fear by anyone who saw him riding
on horseback through the streets of the ghetto, clasped heavy handgun,
(03:44):
clad in his black leather pilot's court. Then he had
unlimited power, the power to determine the fate of other people.
How he must long for those days which seem now
looking through the window of the shabby ticket office of
(04:04):
his undown both rental business like a mirage produced by
in memory sells with an overdeveloped imagination. I'm Stephen Talty
(04:27):
in this as good assassin's hunting the butcher, So he's
the first part was to find and not be looking forward,
while for the second part was to find a nag
and healing. He shot fast and see expertise that comes
from experience, the end of a trail of blood and horror,
(04:47):
in the end of a man whose name will be
written in infamy. M Episode five, Baiting the hook. Sitting there,
(05:16):
Mio began to feel his way into Zuker's life. He
thought about this former superstar pilot now working as a
kind of grease monkey. How far this man had fallen
in the world. Question one? What was the Butcher missing
in his life? Respect? The Jewish activists who discovered Suckers
living in Rio hadn't managed to get him deported or arrested,
(05:38):
but they had badly damaged his public image. Zuckers was
a social outcast now, and it was clear he hated it.
Question too. If making him a hero was out of
the question, was there anything that could substitute for it?
Mio thought about that a narcissist like Suckers, he wants
(05:58):
what he used to have, power and fame. The Butcher
wanted people to look up to him. Back in Latvia,
he'd been a winner, He was beloved, and he liked
that a lot. So Question three, how could MEO get
the Butcher or pretend to get the Butcher? The power
that he so clearly wanted. They could always start with money.
(06:19):
Money would buy Zookers new suits, and it would buy
him new glasses to replace the taped up ones he'd
been wearing at the docks. First came money, then respect,
then power. It was an age old formula, but it worked.
Me was guessing at all this he had no idea
really what was in the butcher's heart. But as it
turned out, he'd come very close to the truth. Again,
(06:42):
Chris Costa, this is ultimately, this particular case is an
incredible example of looking every step of the way to
understand what motivates this target so that I can set
up the ultimate trap. And I think in this case
he was motivated by wanting to regain something that he lost.
(07:06):
He wanted more financial stability, He wanted to be an
important person again, so he was vulnerable to a great
business opportunity with somebody he trusted. In. Doing my research,
I came across an interview that Sucker's wife had later
given to police. She told them that when Zuker's first
(07:26):
started getting successful in Brazil, he told his friends he
was going to quote create a great club and found
a school of seaplane pilots, unlike anything that had ever
existed in Brazil. Not only that, he wanted to build
a new airplane engine that would revolutionize the industry. His
dream had always been to be a pioneer, to shock
(07:47):
the world with his genius in building airplanes. All he
needed was an investor to help him with money. Meal
didn't know about any of these dreams, but he'd somehow
detected what Sukers was looking for. A backer, someone to
believe in him. Who knows, maybe with the help of
(08:11):
Kunzle and his backer's capital, he will finally be able
to pull himself out of this dismal existence, all of
his on the verge of poverty, and become rich, a
respectable member of society, and and read himself of the
persecution of the Jews that had been beleaguing him for years.
(08:33):
The American reporter Jack Anderson, who traveled to Brazil in
nineteen sixty to cover Nazi fugitives, sensed it too. Suckers
wanted to rehabilitate himself, and both Anderson and Mio offered
him a shot. So interestingly, Zookers turned up the charm
and trotted out a very similar routine for both Meo
(08:53):
and Jack Anderson. I think that he was afraid, not
so much of the publicity as he was of the Jews.
I think one of the reasons that he may have
been willing to talk to me was to present his
case how he had saved this girl, and how he
was not a Jew killer, and how he had been misrepresented. So,
(09:18):
sitting on his hotel bed, Neil decided on his approach
he would dangle a chance at redemption in front of
the butcher, a last shot at riches and fame. That
was the bait. Neo got into his rented v W
and followed the directions that seekers had given him to
(09:40):
his house. When he turned the corner onto the final street,
he found he was in a normal, boring suburb lined
with modest homes. Here's how Anderson describes it. It was
about twenty miles, as I recall, out of dirt road,
out of kind of a remote but very pastoral setting
outside of So Paulo, comparable to a lakeside development where
(10:06):
wealthy people might have bungalows. Couldn't have been more peaceful
looking place. It was almost a postcard tranquility. And when
I got there there were three seaplanes. You are enough sitting,
three of them sitting anchored near his house, and two
(10:27):
big burly guards at his gate. It was easy to
spot the Sucre's residence. In fact, it stuck out like
a sore thumb. The house was completely surrounded by a
high fence topped with barbed wire. The German shepherd that
year Reeve had warned him about was barking at me
O through the fence, showing its teeth. The house was
pretty basic and there was a garden shed in the yard.
(10:49):
It confirmed me as guests clearly Sucers was hurting for money.
The butcher emerged from the house spotted me O getting
out of the VW. His face broke into a wide
grin and he called out to Meo, saying how glad
he was to see him. Sucers tied up the German
shepherd and invited his guest inside. Here's how Anderson describes
(11:12):
meeting Suckers. I approached the gate and asked identified myself
and asked for him, And one of these two big
burly guards goes up to the door and knocks on
the door, and a guy comes out. He's thirty yards away,
forty yards away. The waves still need to come on in,
(11:34):
and so they let me in and I walked in,
and it was kind of chilling because he was wearing
a leather jacket. Not read all the stuff. He was
wearing this leather jacket. When he turned around open the door,
he had a pistol book and out of his back pocket.
Kind of chilling. He invited me in and we talked
to Great Lane. As he entered the house, his eyes
(11:59):
darted around the here he was looking for signs of
the past. During the years nineteen forty one nineteen forty four,
Zukers had a messed a small fortune robbed from his
Jewish victims, but he had to leave most of it
in Latvia when he escapes the Red Army to the
(12:21):
vest and the remains of the stolen goods had to
be sold in order to finance the long escape route
from Riga to South Paolo. Now, as he studied Sucers home,
Nero realized that the money and the jewels they were
long gone. There were no chandeliers or grand pianos here.
The rooms were modestly furnished, even a little shabby. It
(12:43):
was a good sign his instincts have been right. The
butcher introduced me out to his children and to his wife, Milda,
a thin woman with messy hair. She looked frazzled or
maybe anxious. Sucers brought me over to a wooden chest,
and he pulling out medals and ribbons and showing them
to me O. He was clearly proud of them. Most
(13:05):
of them were for daring trips to Africa Japan once
he'd made in the thirties when he was a world
famous pilot. He was showing me O that he had
once been somebody. Neo nodded and congratulated Sukers. His eyes
drifted around the drawer. He spotted a bunch of other medals.
These ones they were different, They had swastikas on it.
(13:30):
Clearly they had nothing to do with aviation. This was
for work Zukers had done during the war. At ze moments,
I preferred not to think of the activities for which
Chukos had been a wall did these declarations. Here's how
Jack Anderson describes getting a similar tour from Zuker's and
(13:52):
I at some point asked him a question that required
him to look up some papers or documents, and the
open the closet. It was by the front door. They
opened the closet, and they're hanging. In that closet was
a row of Nazi uniform and all freshly pressed, complete
(14:14):
with a swastika. He made a big point. I remember
doing the discussion. He denied the atrocities, which I would
expected him to, but spoke crudely of Jews, you know,
us him I'm not a Jew killer, saying it contemptuously,
as if he wishes he were. And his greatest evidence
(14:36):
of that was that he had helped a Jewish girl escape.
And I talked to people about it and they said, yes,
that's correct. He did help, and there was an obvious ploy,
so that if he ever got caught, he would This
was going to be his great excuse, his great justification
for not having his own neck wrong. What do you mean,
(14:58):
I'm a Jew killer? I save this girl? And he
did save this girl, but he killed many others and
raped many others, but he saved one. I was told
by the Jews themselves. Yes he didn't save one girl.
I mean he did that to create an alibi for himself.
What came next was even more disturbing. Seekers opened another
(15:22):
drawer and Mio immediately saw guns. There were two pistols. Apperetta,
a German mauser, and a semi automatic rightful. All the
evidence that I saw around there checked completely with the
file that I had, even to the point that it
made the hair on back of my next stand up.
It checked completely with him with what was in the
(15:43):
file in these affidavits, The way he acted his physical appearance,
where he dressed the pistol in the back of his pocket,
his his arrogant attitudes is brutal. Ways. He wasn't brutal
to me. Of course, he wasn't brutal, but he conducted
himself like a man who would be brutal. I would
(16:03):
have hated to build his prisoner in that place. I'll
tell you that his big brutal look of brutal talking.
So I came away convinced that he was exactly what
the Jews said. He was just struck me as a
kind of a guy who would have probably enjoyed kicking
me around secrets. Was having a good time picking up
(16:27):
each gun and showing it off. He leaned over to
Mio and told him he knew how to take good
care of himself. Meo wondered why Zukers was showing him
the weapons he was posing as a developer, and Sucris
was auditioning for a job. It's not as if you
need an arsenal to sell real estate. Was the butcher
(16:47):
trying to prove to Meo that he'd once been a soldier?
Or was it a warning? Maybe Sucres suspected that Meo
really wasn't who he said he was. Neo couldn't figure
it out, not yet, but he felt exposed. The lack
of backup he'd insisted on now seemed foolish. Nia realized
it wouldn't be easy to eliminate this man. He was
(17:10):
crafty and suspicious. Suckers brought Meo out to the workshed
showed him some pictures he developed. He'd taken them from
his plane, and they covered different areas of the city
that might be right for investment. After the scare over
the guns was a positive sign. Showed that Sukers was
interested in working on the real estate stuff. He was
(17:32):
hungry and that was a good thing. Afterwards, the family
sat in the living room. Suckers was talkative, but his
sons and daughters they were kind of awkward. They didn't
say a lot. Mean got the sense that the family
didn't get many visitors. Though some resilience had defended Suckers
when he was accused of being the Butcher, many others
(17:53):
they had abandoned him. He'd lost friends, the family seemed
starved for company. Anton Kouzla Uh was a lifeline. Neil
could feel how much the Zookers needed a savior. As
they munched on cake and sip coffee, the kids loosened
up a bit. They began asking Kunzla about the future.
(18:14):
He assured them that he was planning big things for Brazil.
He and his partners were serious about investing and making
a lot of money there, and their father he was
part of their big plans. If you're this far into
the story, we're assuming you're enjoying Hunting the Butcher. If
(18:35):
you're listening on Apple podcasts, would you be able to
take a minute to give the show a rating and
a review. Just find the show's page on Apple Podcasts,
scrolled down to the section called Ratings and Reviews and
tap one of those purple stars to give it a rating.
Then tapped a little purple link that says write a
review and leave a few words about what you think
(18:56):
of Hunting the Butcher. It really helps get the word
out and let other listeners know about the podcast. Much appreciated.
Now on with the show. Later, he and Zukers drove around.
(19:17):
They were looking at properties that could become vacation resorts.
Neo feigned interest, but he was thinking about how to
get the butcher out of the country. If Zukers had
shown him the most beautiful plot of land in Brazil,
he wouldn't have cared. He was building trust dependence. Zuker
says that Kunsla was bored the places he'd shown him
(19:38):
weren't doing the trick, so he came up with an idea.
The two of them should take a trip inland away
from the coast. He told the secret agent they owned
two plantations there. Maybe they'd be right for MEO's tourism business.
Neo immediately agreed. It would be like a boy's trip,
an adventure. They can relax on the way to the plantations,
(19:58):
they could bond. I should point out here that me
was violating almost every rule of working undercover, especially when
your target was as dangerous as the Butcher was. And
it doesn't surprise Chris Costa. So in many cases you
are so you're a singleton. You're alone, you don't have
a backup, you don't have a quick reaction force, you
(20:21):
don't have the ability to simply call for help. There's
no switch you can activate that sends a message that
you're at risk. So this is where you have to
constantly assess the risk and the amount of risk you're
willing to accept. Usually, an espionage work, if there's a
(20:46):
risk your cover will be blown and you'll be exposed.
You try to keep your interactions to public places that
are easy to escape from, or where a killer might
feel reluctant to shoot you, because there could be witnesses.
So you keep your meeting to the safest places you
can think of, not plantations out in the middle of nowhere.
(21:06):
Saucers was proposing going into the back country, the two
of them alone. It was super risky. If Mio had
passed the idea by his boss, your reeve, you probably
would have said no. But your read was thousands of
miles away and Mia was flying solo. He agreed to go.
(21:27):
Meo could see that Sucers was starting to dream about
the future, to get excited. That's what Mio wanted. In
the morning, Meal's first stop was to a sporting goods store.
He felt strange about going with Suckers into the jungle unarmed,
so he bought a small knife. He would have preferred
(21:50):
a gun or something more lethal, but he couldn't conceal
a gun, so he had this thing that was really
a glorified pen knife. Most massad agents would laugh at
such a weapon. What are you going to do with that?
But it was the best Meal could think of. When
Mea arrived at Suker's house, the butcher emerged carrying supplies,
(22:10):
canned food and other things, and his other hand was
a long bag. Meio knew what that was and he froze.
It was the rifle he'd seen the day before. Why
was the butcher bringing a long gun to the jungle,
Neil began to get nervous. There was one other detail
he worried about. On the drive to the plantations, he
(22:32):
like most Jewish men, was circumcised, but his cover was
an Austrian businessman, and Austrian most likely wouldn't be circumcised.
So how would Mio explain if the two of them
went to take a leak in jungle and Suckers glanced over?
He had to prepare for everything. He decided to tell
the butcher that he'd gotten the sexually transmitted disease during
(22:55):
the war, and that doctors had performed in operation. Soldiers
were always getting syphilis and things like that. They could
laugh about it, reminisce about the war. Maybe it would work.
The long trip to the plantations would also give Zukers
a chance to see if they were being tailed. If
Mio had people following him, some kind of a backup team,
(23:17):
they would be exposed on the deserted roads. At least
for now, MEO's decision to come to Brazil solo look smart.
It was hot, a typical Brazilian day. Finally they drove
up to the first plantation. It was disappointing, a small
(23:40):
plot of land, not much to look at. Meo shook
his head. There was nothing out here. Why would Sukers
think this would be a good spot for an expensive resort.
It had been a waste of time. They got back
in the car and headed to the second place. This
one it was much more promising, a huge farm with
thousands of banana trees, the leaves swaying in the breeze.
(24:03):
It was pretty impressive. Actually, at least there was room
for a hotel and maybe a swimming pool. It might
work as a tourist destination. There was one other thing.
The place was completely deserted, like not a soul in sight.
Neo parked the car and got out. Zukers did too.
Then he reached back in and grabbed the rifle. Zukers
(24:27):
asked me to take a short walk. He pointed to
a small path leading to an uncultivated area full of
trees and tall bushes and tells me it leads to
a small river swarming with crocodiles. Meal appeared perfectly calm,
(24:47):
but inside he was tense. Something was very wrong. Clearly
the trip wasn't about real estate ventures or plots of land.
You could dismiss bringing a rifle along. Leave the plantations
had wild animals. But the butcher wasn't even trying to
talk up the place as a tourist destination. He was
up to something else. Suckers had brought him here to
(25:10):
see if Kula really was who said he was. I
knew that Zukers was observing my reactions closely, and hastened
to accept tiso without any hesitation. They walked down the
path and stopped at a small clearing, where Sukers took
the rifle out of the bag. Suckers asked me, oh
for shooting match. If he'd really been on the Eastern Front,
(25:32):
he should know how to shoot along gu Sucers pointing
to a tree about fifty yards away. There was a
metal plate nailed to the trunk that would be the target.
You're being led in the jungle to shoot with a
guy that you know has already killed people with his
own hands. Is this yet again? Are you being tricked
(25:54):
and manipulated by somebody that certainly was vicious and displayed
viciousness during World War Two and a propensity to kill
people All of a sudden, You're alone on some plantation.
Is this a setup? Are you going to be killed?
I had no doubt in my mind that the shooting
competition was no spoiler of the moment idea. It was
(26:19):
a well planned move by Zukers, intended to put me
to the test and maybe even beyond it. Mio also
realized that if it came to a fight, his little
pocket knife wasn't going to be much use. Zukers loaded
ten bullets into the rifle and sighted the plate hanging
on the tree. He let off ten shots, one right
(26:41):
after the other. You could tell he knew how to
handle a gun. He shot fast, with the expertise that
comes from experience, a large part of which had been
the clad by shooting naked and petrofied Jews in the
head in the Valley of the Dead in Rombula Forest.
(27:02):
The Rambola forest was the place near Riga where the
Nazis had murdered twenty five thousand Jews in the winter
of Suker. Shots all hit their target within two inch radius.
He'd done well. He handed the rifle to Mio. I
could see out of the corner of my eye how
(27:22):
he followed my every move, waiting to find out whether
I was an imposta. I had to reach military best.
From the minute I had taken this mission upon myself,
Anton kuns had become an inseparable part of me. Meo
(27:42):
pulled the trigger again and again. When he was finished,
the two men walked towards the tree. Me was praying,
you'd at the target. When they studied the plate, it
turned out that meal shots were clustered in the center.
He'd done even better than Zukers. The butcher seemed excited.
He cried out, way to go and slap me on
the shoulder. Like many soldiers, he placed a lot of
(28:05):
weight on whether a man could shoot a gun. I
us almost completely convinced I was all right. As of
that moment, It's the atmosphere between us became much lighter,
as if the shooting match was some male ritual of
the two former comrades and alms in the service of
(28:26):
the fuer Hi. This is Stephen Talty, host of Good
Assassins Hunting the Butcher. The folks that helped me bring
you the show, Diversion Podcasts, have just launched another podcast
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(29:09):
Radio app or wherever you listen to your podcasts. The
test was over Meo he passed. The two men walked
back along the path. As he went, Leo felt a
sharp jab in his foot. A nail had gone through
(29:32):
the bottom of his boot and pierced the skin. He
sat down, took off the boot and looked at the cut.
Seekers was standing above him holding the stock of the rifle.
Suddenly he handed the gun to Meo and told him
to pound the nail down so it wouldn't cut him again.
The magazine in the canvas loaded van bullet in his
(29:55):
head at the point BLANKO inch another bulletins are hot
to ascertain death and the mission is complete, they thought.
By the time they find them hearing this remote corners about,
I should be long on to Europe. Do you decide
that you're going to take this mission in your own hands?
(30:17):
And despite the plan that you're developing, are you going
to kill this guy? It was tempting, but in the
end he couldn't do it. The butcher had to die
in a certain way, almost a ceremonial way, for the
mission to succeed. The team had to read a verdict
out and this had to happen in the country that
wouldn't endanger Jews. It was just too soon, and it
(30:39):
took an incredible amount of discipline. But intelligence officers always
have to keep in mind that they have a plan.
There's a logic for that plant. Who could have known
that you would end up on a plantation alone with
no help, shooting a weapon with the target of your
later assassination him. So the amount of discipline and courage
(31:03):
it took to to not use that weapon when you
had it in your hand while you're executing a target practice.
The amount of discipline I took him not to end
the mission right then and there is extraordinary. Neil pounded
down the nail. He got up. The two made their
way back to the caretaker's hut. Were sukers, fixed dinner
(31:24):
from the camed food he brought. Darkness had closed in
and they sat on their camp beds, getting ready to sleep.
Neil was thinking of the past. I remember Tuesday's day,
the moments of the pouture from my family and hometown,
and the whistle of the train as it slowly rolled
(31:46):
out of the main station, adorned with dozens of huge
Nazi flags. It still rings in my ears. My parents
stood on the platform and raved goodbye to the fifteen,
the old sound traveling on his way to a far
off land. At that moment, I felt I was cutting
(32:09):
myself off from everything Chong, preparing to become a proud
Jew in the land of Israel. I could not help
but to think of my family exterminated by murder. Was
similar to the man who said less than a meter
away from me from testimonies, I guessed. After the war,
(32:32):
I learned that my father died in Tisan stat in May.
A short while afterwards, my mother was transported to Auschwitz, where,
together with millions of other Jews, she was murdered by
the Nazis, who were assisted by monsters like Suckers. Now
(32:58):
the butcher was only a few is away. It felt
surreal to Meo and an odd way. Suckers was a
kind of connection to Mio's own family. Suckers had been
there in the middle of the action. He had been
close enough to touch the Jewish men and women as
they were marched to the death pits. I wonder if
(33:22):
Mio was asking himself the same questions I've been asking
for the past three years. Why had Suckers done it?
Why had he betrayed those people? Mio had the ultimate
chance to get the answer straight from a Nazi. The
guy was sitting right there next to him. But Mio,
when he recalled that moment later on, didn't talk about motives.
(33:44):
He just seemed to accept that Suckers was evil or
just responsible. The why didn't seem to bother him. He
wanted to kill the butcher, not psychoanalyze him. That bothers me.
To be honest, is it pointless to ask why Zukers
became a killer? If MEO felt satisfied that he understood
(34:05):
the butcher, maybe I should be too. But after thinking
about it, I can't agree. Saying Zukers had done evil
things wasn't the same as saying that he was a
pent evil. There has to be a way to get
closer to his actual reasons for doing what he did.
The moment passed, Niel saw Zukers slip a pistol under
(34:28):
his pillow. There wasn't anyone around for miles, but the
butcher was still on his card. Hours later, in the
darkness of the small hut, he woke up. He saw
Zuker standing up and taking the gun from underneath the pillow.
My heart started to race. What was he doing? What's
(34:49):
to be on the safe side. I grabbed my personal weapon.
It's a poor small pocket knife I had purchased in
South Boodo. Zukers turned and walked outside. He was just
going to take a leak with his gun. It was
almost comical to me. I could not believe the butcher
expected an ambush in the middle of the Brazilian jungle.
(35:11):
How much harder would it be to assassinate him in
a foreign country when his paranoia was sure to be
even more pumped up. I'm sure Mio had the same thoughts.
Zukers was going to make the kidnapping of Ada Kman
look easy. When I spoke to get sh Imran, the
Massot agent who knew me O, he commented on this,
(35:31):
no doubt that Meal was aware that course is not
an easy target. Of course was suspicious. He was aware
that he is on the wanted list of some of
the survivors of the Holocaust. And he I mean, first
of all, his awls looked like a like a wild wist,
(35:53):
fortifications like al aloid. He had guns at home, the
dog bobbed wires, Etceteraight off. It was very, very suspicious
of anybody trying to get too close. Socus from time
to time expressed his suspicious that something is wrong with
this nice off them businessman or boat of lore appeared
(36:15):
in like life with the promises for golden future and
excellent business and as we know so was still the
last moment, was not fully sure that the meal is kosher.
Sorry for using this Jewish word in this case. Finally
(36:38):
Mia went to sleep. He couldn't solve the puzzle yet.
He had to get closer to this Nazi. He needed
more time. He felt he and Sukers had made a
kind of breakthrough in the jungle. The guy trusted Kunzla,
or at least it felt like he trusted him, but
he was about to find out that Bond was fragile.
(36:59):
The Butcher, as it turned out, was hunting Meo as
much as Meo was hunting him. Good assassins. Hunting the
Butcher is a production of Diversion Podcasts in association with
(37:20):
I Heart Radio. This season is written and hosted by
Stephen Tulting, produced and directed by Scott Waxman and Jacob Bronstein.
Executive producers Scott Waxman and Mark Francis. Story editing by
Jacob Bronstein, with editorial direction from Scott Waxman and mangesh
At Ticket or editing, mixing and sound designed by Mark
(37:41):
Francis with the voices of Nick Avka Thomas Amrie, Angele
Andrew Polk, Mindy Escobar, Leants, Steve Rautman, and Stefan Rudnitsky.
Theme music by Tyler Cash. Archival research by Adam Shapiro,
thanks to Oran Rosenbaum at you d A. A special
(38:05):
thank you to Kevin Anderson and the Anderson family for
permission to use the Jack Anderson recording, Leah Richardson and
the Special Collections Research Center at George Washington University Library
in ron Saw diversion
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