July 9, 2025 • 43 mins
James Rooke, President of Comcast Advertising, is leading a bold transformation of the TV ad marketplace, making premium video more accessible, more measurable, and far less complicated. In this episode, he unpacks how he's breaking down industry silos, simplifying access for marketers, and challenging Big Tech’s dominance with a powerful call for transparency, consistency, and next-gen innovation in media.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good Company is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You want to live a little bit outside your comfort zone.
You want to feel in your chest. It's a little
bit nerve wracking, and it's a little bit tight, because
that is where growth happens. The media entertainment's industry is
moving at such pace you have a choice. You can
wake up every day and look at the world and
say this is a threat, this is scary, or you
(00:26):
can wake up every day and say, look, this is
just the reality of the industry. Have chosen to work in.
I am going to lean in and I'm going to
see it as opportunity.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I'm Michael Casson and this is Good Company. Together we'll
explore the dynamic intersection of media, marketing, entertainment, sports and technology.
I'll be joined by visionaries, pioneers, and yes, even a
couple of disruptors for candid conversations as we break down
how these masters of ingenuity are shaping the future, business,
culture and everything in between. My bet is you'll pick
(01:05):
up a lessen or two along the way. As I
like to say, it's all good. Welcome everyone to Good
Company today. I'm thrilled to have with me an accomplished
advertising leader, a true catalyst in our industry, and a
good friend. James Rook, the president of Comcast Advertising. James
(01:26):
isn't just steering one of the most influential ad platforms
in the world. He's redefining how brands connect with audiences
in so many ways. Under his leadership, Comcast introduced Universal Ads,
a revolutionary one stop platform that's making premium video advertising
more accessible than ever before, transforming the TV marketplace of
(01:46):
the future in its wake. From his meaningful work bridging
the gap between traditional TV and digital to his relentless
pursuit of data driven insights, James brings an invaluable perspective
on turning our industry's complex challenge into clear, actionable strategies. James,
welcome to.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Good company app see you having me on.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Let's dive in. On the eve of the Consumer Electronics
Show this year in January feels like a year ago.
You introduced and announced Universal Ads, a sort of one
stop shop for TV advertising platform that brings together the
top publishers with a simpler access to the premium video category.
(02:30):
I love to get underneath that and understand the vision
that you were putting forth from a Comcast perspective, but
personally your view on that, James.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, it feels like a very long time ago that
we were in Vegas, and I'm sure it won't be
long for back there again. The genesis for universal ads
as you look at the big picture, what's clear to
everybody is that dollars caninuing to move out of the
(03:02):
traditional TV ecosystem. That's no surprise. What's interesting though, is
there's a lot of conversation about dollars shifting from linear
television into streaming and there's obviously no question connective TV
advertising is growing at a double digit clip. But the
(03:23):
reality is what's really happening is the majority of growth
is going to a couple of areas. One is YouTube
and two is into social video. So if you look
at the data, there's more dollars flowing out of the
ecosystem into social video than there is sort of switching
(03:46):
between linear and connective TV.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I want to interrupt there for a moment. Have you
left retail media out purposefully or are you looking at
retail media through a different lens?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
So retail media will be part of the universal ads story.
I can get into that, and yes, absolutely right, there
are dollars moving into retail media. I think with retail
media there will be a bit of a reckoning where
everybody is a retail media network. There will be I
think a small number of players that will be incredibly
successful and a large number that will likely go away.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
And what I'm actually hearing in the marketplace, James, and
I'm curious on your view here. I'm hearing that the
onslaught that we felt kind of over the last year
is slowing down. And you're right, you know, the cream
is going to rise. And I look at this through
the lens of You've got a wildly fragmented circumstance right now,
(04:42):
and is there going to be consolidation of that in
some way? Because you're right, the big players are going
to be able to command more. But if the move
slows down, and it's funny to call it retail media now,
because it's not just retailers to the media networks, you know,
because you've got folks like Uber and Lyft and Chase
(05:03):
Bank having media networks, I guess they're in the retail business,
but not in the way we traditionally define retail. So
I'm curious if you see that shift as well.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, and I think part of why you're going to
see a smaller number of scaled retail media networks comes
back to supply and demand dynamics, which I'll get to
to talk about universal ads and what we're solving for.
Because the reality is that with retail media networks is
obviously incredibly strong data signals that exist from a number
(05:36):
of those players, But the reality is that only a
few number of those players have scaled supply that's on platform,
and you need to be able to extend that off
platform in meaningful ways. The part of the problem there
is how do you connect a quality premium video from
the major media companies in a frictionless way to help
(06:01):
retail media networks or others find authenticated audiences sort of
off platform. And that is not simple right now for
a series of reasons. And so that is a problem
that needs to be solved, and I think that the
major media companies can be a part of that.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Solution absolutely, James, you use the words simple, So I'm
going to use that as a springboard to my next question.
One of the things that you and I have chatted
about over the years, and I know you've been a
public proponent of this is sort of stressing the need
to simplify TV. Add by it's a complicated journey. You
go on, I'd love if you could give our listeners
(06:37):
a kind of behind the scenes view of how you're
trying to do that and where you see the opportunity
and simplification totally.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
So I'm going to probably oversimplify this answer, so excuse
me for doing that in a spirit of simplification. But
when we look at things at the beginning, I said, look,
the majority of the growth is going to social video.
It's you know, it's going to YouTube. Yes, it's going
to retail media. But social video and YouTube are the
(07:06):
big winners. And you ask the question why. One of
the reasons why is that big tech has done an
incredible job and they should be applauded for this of
making buying advertising frictionless and the opposite is the case
for the big media companies. Now, one of those reasons
(07:27):
is the big tech companies have an inherent advantage in
everything that they execute is on an IP backbone versus
the media companies that have to bridge traditional linear infrastructures
with streaming infrastructures. But even that said, simple matters humans
like simple, and so that is reason one. Reason two
(07:49):
the big tech companies have done incredibly well is because
they are closer to the point of sale, and they
have done a great branding job, which is ironic considering
TV is supposed to be good at branding of coining
the term performance. And there has been an over attribution
of credit to the big tech companies who are taking
(08:11):
attribution away from the work done sort of higher up
the purchase funnel. Again, credit to them for doing that.
And the third thing is that there isn't a level
playing field. And what I mean by that, and I've
spoken pretty publicly on this point, and that is that
as more competition comes in for the same dollars. So
(08:32):
if you look at all the new players coming in
competing for TV dollars, in some instances, the rules that
the big media companies are held to in terms of
providing impression, transparency, in terms of being held to legacy
measurement models, those rules do not apply to many of
(08:52):
the new players coming in, and that is highly problematic.
And it's highly problematic because it means that when the
big media companies wake up every day in the one
hundred meter sprints of the day, they start the day
twenty meters behind the starting line because they are held
to a higher standard. And the second reason that that's
problematic is that when you look at pricing and everyone
(09:15):
looks at CPMs, that's not the metric to look at.
It's effective CPM. So when you look at the scandals
that have happened over the years, including like twenty twenty
three when YouTube got exposed for buyers thinking they were
buying true view and in fact, you know, three billion
dollars plus was being spent on Google Video Network on
(09:35):
a bunch of inventory that brands didn't think they wanted
to be associated with. The actual effective CPM that was
being paid was not great. So you know, my concern
is like why are the tragical media companies held to
a higher standard.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Well, you know, James, it's like back in the day,
I would be asked frequently if people would pay a
premium for addressable advertising. I said, well, if you could
actually deliver truly addressable advertising, maybe it wouldn't be viewed
as a premium. Maybe it would be viewed as a
fair price. Because I'm actually reaching James Rook And so
if you do that, then I wouldn't feel like I'm
(10:10):
paying a premium. I feel like I paid fair value
because I actually reached my target, you know, desired result
or you know, whatever the KPI might have been, I've
reached it. So it's interesting to look at it through
that lens. And you know, it's funny because somebody in
your role years ago, comparing New York or Philadelphia, if
(10:31):
you will, to the west coast, said, you know, there
are smart people back east as well. It's not all
it's not all in the valley, okay. And you know,
I know that that's not what you're saying, but it's
kind of what you're saying, because you know, I look
at it through a different lens when standards and practices
(10:52):
my recollection. When a different network than the one Comcast
owns had a wardrobe maultfunction at the Souper years ago,
their FCC license was going to be questioned. And I
think about that against the backdrop of what you were
saying in terms of left coast, right coast, and making
(11:13):
that distinction for purposes of just ease, that the standards
are different. I remember thinking, boy, if a wardrobe malfunction
on a broadcast network, linear TV could subject you to
losing your license. Imagine looking at brand safety on the
other side of the country, and you know, it's just
(11:34):
it's funny because I'm I'm taking a comparison that's not relevant,
but it's relevant because you're saying the same thing.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It's relevant. The irony is and then let's get back
to simplicity. The irony is the of course, healthy competition
to deliver the best return on investment of any given
dollar for a marketer. Everyone should bring that on, but
it should be whereby the rules are consistent between media
(12:01):
companies and big tech companies. And the reality is for
certain big tech companies they don't have to play by
the same rules. Firstly because of you know, historic things
down in Washington and regulation, which will be an interesting
battle over over the next few years. But secondly, the
reality is that they can play by different rules because
(12:21):
of the leverage they've gone.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Well and because of the leverage. But the market gave
them the leverage, the market allowed them.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Market gave them the leverage. But also the majority of their
revenue comes from small businesses. And so whenever any scandal
happens and everyone throws their hand up, guess what happens.
The curve keeps going to upwards into the right.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
When the boycotts happened, I remember because I was actively
involved personally, the percentage was astounding. That being a spec
that's right on the palette if you will, because SMB
was you know, eighty percent of the business.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
That's exactly right. And so the point here isn't to
moan about those things. Those are, but those are things
that need to have a spotlight show on them because
if you're a marketer, if you're a CMO, then ultimately
you want to maximize the ROI in every dollar. You
should have it transparency into where your impressions deliver, not opaqueness.
(13:17):
Otherwise you can't make those comparisons.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
But the simplicity that you create will allow SMB access
in a different way.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So this is it. So this is where I come
back to like applauding the big tech companies who have
made it simple. And if the media companies don't simplify
access to advertisers who haven't bought TV before, then those
advertisers are rightfully going to continue to move their money
(13:49):
into a small number of players because it's too hard.
And that is the big first problem that needs to
be solved. So what we are doing, and when I
say we, I'm going to talk as we the premium
video ecosystem because everything we're doing with universal ads is
trying to move an ecosystem is if you look at meta,
(14:10):
meta owns social video, if you look at YouTube, YouTube
owns short form and unscripted. If you look at premium
video or multiscreen TV, whatever you want to call it,
then it's a set of federated companies that have highly performative, engaging,
brand safe, transparent media that works. It works. But what's
(14:34):
been happening in the last few years is everybody sees
the same problem, i e. Were too hard to buy.
But everyone is moving individually at launching solutions to try
and solve that. So the majority of major media companies
have either launched their own self serve solution or they're
thinking about launching it. And our view was the problem
(14:56):
with that is we're propagating complexity and so the advertiser
is like, yeah, it's great, I can buy media company A,
B or C. But I've got three different workflows, three
different data spines in the back end, Like ah, it's
too difficult. Therefore, I'm just going to keep moving my
money where it is. So problem one that we're trying
(15:18):
to solve is and the bar that we're setting with
Universal Ads is providing a single front door experience where
there has to be zero and I mean zero learning
curve for advertisers who have been highly conditioned by the
big tech companies for how they expect to buy. That
(15:38):
is the bar. The bar is zero learning curve. So
that is what we have done as sort of step one,
and our belief is that by doing that you remove
one of the major obstacles, and that is enabling access
to scale into a product, and that product is premium
video that is highly performative with a zero learning curve
(15:58):
user experience. That sort of step one. Step two is
you then have to solve the proof of performance challenge
because we know that there's been an overallocation of attribution
through to those guys, and that's the second thing we're solving.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
And also the grading of one's own homework is a
challenge that needs to be factored into this consideration set
as well.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
It does for sure, although.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
That's the other side of the trade here though, but.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, it's the other side of the trade. We've we
just put out an announcement with a company called Measured,
and most people in the media space probably haven't heard
of companies like Measured. The reason they haven't heard of
them is these are the companies that provide third party
sort of arbitration for attribution of incrementality, which is a mouthful,
(16:49):
but what that really means is how much did one
media channel contribute to the cell, how much incrementality did
it deliver? And that is how players like Meta and
Google and others, that is the ecosystem they work in.
So what we're going to do with Universal ads is
we're not going to be measured by Nielsen and comScore
(17:12):
and video app like that's that's not what we're going
to do. We are going to be part of the
ecosystem where companies that have built their businesses on social
and YouTube. We're going to be part of that mix.
And our strong hypothesis and ours is not Comcast. Ours
is all the big media companies are involved.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And by the way, you're facilitating this the industry.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
That's right. We believe that truth is on our side
here and that we will demonstrate the meaningful incrementality that
our products deliver to a marketer and what's been fascinating
is we've spoken to over two hundred and fifty cmos
from sort of growth stage businesses that have never bought TV,
(17:55):
and the resounding feedback is we companies are seeing diminishing
returns from social video. We are running out of qualified audiences.
We desperately want to access the good stuff, but it
is too hard to do it. Make it easy. And
(18:15):
then once it's made it easy, which we've done, is
you have to integrate with the players, the measurement partners
and others that we work with, and then at least
you have an opportunity to go on offense.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Good company will be right back after the break. Leveling
the playing field is an important thing. And I had
a conversation with somebody the other day. This goes back
(18:51):
to one of my pet peeves of what's my password
for this site or that site? You know, when it's
too complicated, what do I do? I just forget about
it and I don't go read that article because I
can't go remember what the password was there. And you know,
it's the same thing again what I said earlier. I'm
dumbing it down for me. That's what the marketplace is
saying to you, and hats off to Comcast for listening,
(19:15):
and hats off on behalf of the industry, and I
mean this for taking the step to do what's necessary
to give the SMB community a real choice.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Thank you, And look now it comes down to execution excellence.
And you know, the headwinds are strong, but for me
sort of waking up every day, what motivates me is
having the ability to swing and go for it. You know.
That's what we're doing. And the other way that we
think about this is worst case scenario, we as a
(19:50):
collective industry are unable to demonstrate the performance power of
premium video. I'm very confident we will, but if we don't,
then I'm now sort of coming back to the fourteen
thousand because everything I've been talking about is outside the
fotunen thousand. And when we talk about SMBs, there are
(20:10):
many sort of stratifications of SMBs. There's Joe's Pizza at
the local, local level, but there are gross stage businesses
that spend millions and millions every month on advertising but
have not spent one dollar on TV. Like there's a
wide set of clients to go after that. However, worst case,
if you fail, there I don't think we will, but
(20:33):
if you do, then you still have to come back
to the core client base of the big media companies,
which is the fourteen thousand, and the principles that we've
been talking.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
About apply across there. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
No, we have to make it simple.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
This is a win win because it either wins on
the new front or I'm using new front I don't
mean new fronts. It either wins on that side or
wins on the traditional side, but it wins. And you
also talked about commondeering is probably a good way to
say what you said about the word performance. The tech
companies had commandeered the word performance or took ownership of it.
(21:12):
I've struggled over the last few years with the concept,
not struggled, but it's been an opportunity, candidly, the blending
of brand and performance.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
And you know what you're talking about here is the
ability to look at those two words coming together. I
protected a word in the market which I've talked about
for a few years, and I think you and I
have talked about it, James, which is brandformance. Because it
was the idea of infusing the same data the same
you know, results, orientation, that one has on performance against brand,
(21:46):
because why wouldn't you if it's available to you, you
bring them together in some way, not just organizationally, but
structurally and how you go to market. And I think
you're kind of talking about that as well here.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, very much agree. And my colleague at our sister company,
NBC Universal, Marshal, is very loud on this on this
topic because both of us and you know, the heads
of sales of all the big media companies feel very
aligned on this point. Premium video is performative, and it
is a full funnel solution period and and and that
(22:21):
has been proven time and time and time and time again.
There's been sort of three to four billion dollars plus
in the last three or four years that has entered
TV from first time TV buyers, and those direct consumer
companies have some of the most sophisticated back end attribution models,
data scientists, et cetera. And they know that they know
(22:44):
that it works. However, and there's there's a big However,
we can pat ourselves on the back that those post
campaign results that show up in reports X months later
show good outcomes, but that's not good enough. That is
not good enough. So for me. It comes down to
(23:05):
being able to operationalize the same way that big tech
companies can, the ability to show incrementality. And what I
mean by that is when a campaign is running, we
need to be able to show the impact that that
campaign is having, for example on search results or on
(23:25):
website lift or through using first party pixels. Be able
to show the impact on driving traffic to purchase pages
or ultimately app downloads or whatever it may be. Trying
to fight the battle at bottom bottom of funnel is
a losing battle. What we think is interesting is mid
funnel and being able to demonstrate in near real time
(23:47):
mid funnel impact, then you can show, sometimes deterministically, but
often probabilistically, what that halo effect is on lower funnel.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And James, you said something that really resonated with me,
because is getting the results a few weeks later doesn't
work in the SMB market any better than it does
in the large brand market. Why Because the SMB, my bet,
this is a hunch, is overwhelmingly retail, as we describe
(24:17):
retail with a capital R retail, and they need real
time results. I know when I ran a media agency
and bought media for a large entertainment company. Me telling
them three weeks later that that campaign on opening that
movie didn't work doesn't do them any good at all.
(24:38):
They need Saturday morning results, they need Friday at noon results.
They need to be able to know. And you're talking
about retail. That's why the dashboard capability, that real time feedback,
the ability to change on a dime, has to be
available for this playing field to get leveled.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
That's exactly right. So if you go back to two things,
it's simplest and it's proof of performance, and both of
them are about making it easy and doing it quickly. So
like if you talk to on the first one, if
you talk to chief investment officers at the major agencies
and they say to you, hey, if i've got making
numbers up, I've got ten million dollars, I've got to
(25:16):
move on a Friday. I need to start that Friday
morning and get it done by Friday night. Ten million
dollars is going to a few large, big tech players,
and those chief investment officers don't necessarily want to do
that because they understand they would ideally like to allocate
a percentage of that to the big media companies because
it's performative and it works, but they have no choice
(25:37):
because it's too difficult. So again the simplicity mantra applies
regardless if you're talking about Joe's pizza or chief investment
officer at an agency, and then on proof performance, exactly
the same if you think about addressable advertising. Addressable advertising
is growing in a really healthy way. But if I
(25:58):
was to hold the mirror to ourselves, and we do
a lot of dress ball advertising ourselves, we have to
improve the SLA. We have to improve the time by
which the impact of those results get in the hands
of the media planner and the media buyer so they
can make the adjustments in campaign. It's just a reality.
And so this brand formance you know concept is I'm
(26:19):
not saying there shouldn't be money spent on search. There
should be money spent on search. I'm just saying that
the bleeding between the two worlds, the war has to
collapse between the two and that comes back also to
this level playing field concept we talked about. Because I'll
also tell you and I'm sure you know this as well,
there is frustration within the agencies with regard to the
(26:42):
opaqueness or the lack of transparency they get from certain
big tech companies around where impressions are delivered, as we
talked about earlier, but also, you know, under the guise
of AI and under the protection of data privacy, unable
to actually show what's going on in terms of why
(27:03):
dollars are being allocated where they are. I've heard from
agencies that a lot of the recommendations coming back from
the wonderful AI algorithms are saying you should put more
money in branded search. Shocking, and so you know, we
know the game's going on, but we can complain about
it again.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Or or you can do something about it, or we.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Could do something about it. And so I'm going to
continue to sort of shine spotlights on areas that I
think are problematic. But that's not good enough. We've got
to do something about it. And that's sort of the
call to action.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
And you certainly have heard that clarion call and stepped up, James.
Can we switch gears and talk about audience express and
kind of the strategy for premium content providers? Can you
shine some light on that for us?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Sure, I think from a monetization standpoint, obviously I won't
talk on behalf of the media companies if I'm going
to wear my free Will hat for a second. Free Will,
you know, free Wills want to be assets is part
of Comcast Advertising and one of our crown jewels. We
think it plays a crucial role as an industry platform
to help, to your point, enable publishers to be able
(28:13):
to monetize their scarce supply in a way that sort
of maximizes yield and delivers on the outcomes that they're
responsible for. For marketers, the way we think about it
is as viewing fragments. The job for free Will is
to be able to support the media company in being
(28:35):
able to reaggregate that fragmented audience and therefore bring sort
of a single pool of supply into which demand can compete.
And then when you look at demand, as you know,
the world has gone from everything being direct sold insertion
order to what we see now and it's still pretty low.
(28:58):
Is across free Will clients only a twenty five percent
of total supplies being monetized through programmatic pipes, and of
that probably eighty percent is programmatic guaranteed and the rest
is through private marketplaces. But the job for free Will
is to be able to maximize demand density onto the
(29:19):
supply of a publisher. So what that means in English
is anytime a user presses play on a video on
a Fox, An, NBC or Warner Brothers show, you want
all the possible demand to compete for that impression, and
that is demand that comes from the direct sales team,
or that is demand that comes from the trade desk, Xander, Google,
(29:41):
three sixty, whatever it may be, and that is sort
of goal on. What's interesting though, is going back to
what we talked about before, is the majority of that
demand that competes for media companies supply is still coming
from the Fortune thousand and So this comes back to
what we're trying to do with the rest of the
media industry on universal ads is increase the amount of
(30:04):
demand that can compete for that supply by enabling thousands
of new advertisers that have never bought TV to also
have an opportunity to buy that impression. That is good
for the reasons we talked earlier, but it is also
good for the media company because it increases demand density,
and then you go back to one oh one economics,
that is a good thing. So for me, it's pretty
(30:26):
simple in terms of sort of our role as an
operator of freewheel is to work on behalf of the
publisher to enable them to reaggregate their fragmented audience and
enable the maximum amount of demand to compete for that
supply so they can maximize the yield on that inventory.
And on the flip side, for the agency, I'm going
(30:47):
to bring us back, Michael, to simplicity. For the big agencies.
We want them to be able to have the most
direct path as the crow flies to the major supply
pools where they can find the audiences that they need
to on behalf of the marketer and I go there
because as we've been talking about simplicity for a lot
(31:09):
of this, I would argue that as the world moves
to more programmatic, the media supply chain is broken and
it is the opposite of simple, and I think that
is sort of highly problematic.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
We're going to hit pause for a moment, but stay
with us after the break, we've got more insights to share.
There is an open dialogue between the agencies and the
market and solving that problem, especially at the agency level,
(31:48):
because that's where the bulk of obviously premium money is
coming from, not the SMB money, but the premium money.
Is coming from. That's the cinequanon of this conversation is
the investment leads at the agencies.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
That's right. And I know this may sound glass at
full but I have a strong belief that there is
a shared incentive from the end marketer, the brand marketer,
whoever the marketer is, and the agency and the publisher
to be able to simplify the media supply chain so
(32:26):
that route demand gets to root supply in the most
efficient way possible. And the reason there's a lining center,
I think there are aligned incentives there ultimately, even if
that's not the case today, is because I think we
have to look at the world through two lenses with
this question or two stakeholders. One is the marketer and
(32:47):
two is the consumer. And for the marketer, the goal
is how do we maximize working media for that marketer,
And in today's programmatic world, too much working media is
coming out of the leaky pipe to intermediaries. That's unnecessary. Absolutely,
So that's sort of number one. And number two is
the viewer and the viewer experience, and the viewer experience
(33:11):
gets interrupted or made more difficult to deliver with excellence
when you have speed bumps along the way in terms
of so many intermediaries, and so one good example of this,
the freewheel is very focused on, and I think is
in fact the whole industry is focused on. It is
live sports. And if you look at what's happening with
(33:33):
live sports and the shift to streaming, now, intersect that
trend line with the growth in programmatic. When you intersect
live sports for programmatic, it sounds yay. This is a
huge opportunity and it's great for everyone. It is in
nightmare because technology players aren't ready to support these massive
(33:54):
spikes in viewership. Viewer experience is not where it needs
to be, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so
when I think about cleaning up the media supply chain,
I look at it through the lens of look, we
need to maximize working media for the brand. Everyone is
incentivized to do that, and we have to be able
to make this transition from you know, traditional linear into
(34:14):
a world of streaming where ultimately everything will be IP
delivered in a way the looks after the viewer experience.
Otherwise dollars will sort of move out the ecosystem because
eyeballs will. So that for me and for comcost advertising
is a big focus and we're working very closely with
the agencies and the publishers to be able to bring
(34:35):
that to life.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Well, James, you deserve the Congressional Medal of Honor because
I know you. It's the old expression about pioneers and settlers.
Pioneers take the arrow, settlers get the land. I think
you're probably taking some arrows on this road, but you're
getting the appropriate land. I love to kind of round
out these conversations with a bit of a lightning round. Yeah,
(34:57):
we've covered a lot of important ground today, and I
so appreciate it because your insights are valuable and the
listeners should be rewarded and properly so for being able
to hear this in language that is understandable. So I
appreciate that and I thank you for that. But now
I'm going to give you a little bit of a
(35:17):
lightning round and I'm going to throw some questions at you,
and you can go as deep or as shallow as
you want on the answers. But let me get it started.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
So I have phone a friend abilities or yeah, no, no, no,
this is.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
All your baby. What's one small habit in your daily
routine that brings you unexpected joy.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
One small habit, this isn't maybe a habit, but one
small event that happens that brings me unexpected joy is
when I have emails forwarded to me that have come
from lower levels of the organization and they've been forwarded six, seven,
(35:58):
eight times and end up in my desk, and are
small wins that have happened in some of our media
markets where we've been fighting hard, where we've been talking
about something on global town halls, where we've launched, we've
launched a new capability or whatever it may be, and
(36:18):
seeing that salesperson call it in and ring the bell
and say what a difference it made? Like that is
that is meaningful because it gives you hope and it
gives you confidence that you are moving from sort of
strategy through to execution and making a client impact. So
for me, those are the those are the times that
(36:39):
are great because in my role, a lot of what
I get problems and so when you get those emails
that that is something that makes me very happy.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Well, that should bring you joy. I got an answer
from somebody which was they like to put on their
bathroobe when they get home so yours answer was an
entirely different but it's all good.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
It's all good if you want that version. You and
I've talked about this over drinks and it's something that
takes a lot of discipline. But my greatest point of
joy every single day is when I get home and
I get to lie in bed with my five year
old daughter my eight year old daughter, read them a
(37:20):
story and it puts in perspective what's important in life,
and they want me every night I have to tell
them a story about something in my childhood, which is
interesting because you have to think back to, Oh my god,
I love my childhood. And it's the connection with my
kids where whatever's been going on in the day life.
(37:41):
Coming back to the simplification theme of this whole podcast
is everything seems simpler and purer and it makes me smile.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Well, that's a good one, and we did talk about that,
and I know how important that is. Speaking of the
younger people in your life, if you could give your
your younger self one piece of advice, what would it be.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Be the person that always says yes to whatever the
opportunity may be, even if it feels nerve wracking to you,
because You never know where it's going to take you
and what you may learn, even if it turns out
that it's something that's not that interesting to you. The
worst case, you make new people and build new connections
(38:23):
and learn what you do and don't like. And for me,
do that without asking for reward or whatever it may be.
Just say yes and take the leap, and you never
know it's going to take you.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
It's a great outlook. Was there a mentor earlier in
your career that you could identify and was there a
particular piece of advice that that mentor or many of
us are fortunate to have more than one mentor, but
is there one that sticks out for you? And was
there any one particular piece of advice that that mentor
gave you or any mentor.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
My first boss I was in the UK, working in London,
working in consulting for my sins, and my first boss
was a woman called Claire Eichenbach. Claire actually Michael is
now She lives in New York and she's a CEO
of the James Beard Foundation, So you may have crossed
parts with her.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
I did because Wenda Mallard, my partner many years ago,
was on the board of the James Beard Foundation, So
I did have the ability to get to know some
of the folks there.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
So that's the content and by the way, and I
ate well as a result, I would expect. So the
impact that Claire has had on me and continues to
have on me as a mental to me is pretty profound.
She was a senior member of the team and I
was a junior member of the team, and the number
one lesson I learned from her is that she treated
(39:50):
all of the junior members, the sort of analysts at
that time, as if we were senior members of the team.
And what I mean by that is she was transfer
barn and built trust through transparency with all of us
where she was sort of with the troops in the trenches,
and she would always provide big picture context of what
(40:11):
was going on, which meant that when we went back
to the little cog that we were running as an analyst,
we had context, We had context, and to be treated
as an adult and with that level of maturity and
trust meant we wanted to work so damn hard for her.
And it is a lesson that stayed with me where
I know that in my organization now, the answers lie
(40:37):
where the work is being done.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
James, you said it at the beginning of this part
of the conversation when you said a happy place for
you is when your local teams come back to you.
So you're consistent on that, and what I love about that.
My story a little different an early mentor to me
when I started my career practicing law, and I know
I'm asking you the questions, but I'll share this because
(41:00):
it's in line with what you just talked about. He
was the kind of guy, the senior partner in this
law firm. I have the ability to look out my
window and see the Pacific Ocean, which is a special thing.
What he would do is let you swim as far
as you could, no matter what band you were in.
If we're talking about employee band, you know, first year,
second year, whatever wherever you were. It didn't matter. If
(41:23):
you could swim, he would let you swim. And by
the way, if you swam a little further than you
should have, he would throw you a life round and
he'd probably do that the second time. The third time
he'd probably say keep swimming. But the ability to empower
people that way, either through information as you just said,
and context or the ability to just let them swim.
(41:48):
That's a brilliant contribution from a leader, and.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
I love that because you're right. When I advise those
sort of early on in their career. Is one thing
I'll always say is that you want to live a
little bit outside your comfort zone.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
You want to look at it outside your band.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yes, that's well said. You want to feel in your
chest it's a little bit nerve wracking and it's a
little bit tight because that is where growth happens, and
in particular in today's world, where the media entertainment's industry
is moving at such pace, you have a choice. You
can wake up every day and look at the world
(42:23):
and say this is a threat, this is scary, or
you can wake up every day and say, look, this
is just the reality of the industry. Have chosen to
work in. I am going to lean in and I'm
going to see it as opportunity. It is a choice.
Doesn't mean it's going to be easier, but it's a
choice about how you approach your day.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
Absolutely, James Rook, I can't thank you enough for taking
this time today. I know that I've learned a lot
and I am certain that our listeners will as well.
You are a total gentleman, and you are a tribute
to this industry and a gift to this industry. James Rook,
thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
I'm Michael Casson, Thanks for listening to Good Company.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Good Company is brought to you by Three C Ventures
and iHeart Podcasts. Special thanks to Alexis Borger Purdeo, our
executive producer and head of Content and Talent, and to
Carl Catle, executive producer at iHeart Podcasts. Episodes are produced
and edited by Mary Doo. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
We'll see you next time.
Good Company is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
You want to live a little bit outside your comfort zone.
You want to feel in your chest. It's a little
bit nerve wracking, and it's a little bit tight, because
that is where growth happens. The media entertainment's industry is
moving at such pace you have a choice. You can
wake up every day and look at the world and
say this is a threat, this is scary, or you
(00:26):
can wake up every day and say, look, this is
just the reality of the industry. Have chosen to work in.
I am going to lean in and I'm going to
see it as opportunity.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I'm Michael Casson and this is Good Company. Together we'll
explore the dynamic intersection of media, marketing, entertainment, sports and technology.
I'll be joined by visionaries, pioneers, and yes, even a
couple of disruptors for candid conversations as we break down
how these masters of ingenuity are shaping the future, business,
culture and everything in between. My bet is you'll pick
(01:05):
up a lessen or two along the way. As I
like to say, it's all good. Welcome everyone to Good
Company today. I'm thrilled to have with me an accomplished
advertising leader, a true catalyst in our industry, and a
good friend. James Rook, the president of Comcast Advertising. James
(01:26):
isn't just steering one of the most influential ad platforms
in the world. He's redefining how brands connect with audiences
in so many ways. Under his leadership, Comcast introduced Universal Ads,
a revolutionary one stop platform that's making premium video advertising
more accessible than ever before, transforming the TV marketplace of
(01:46):
the future in its wake. From his meaningful work bridging
the gap between traditional TV and digital to his relentless
pursuit of data driven insights, James brings an invaluable perspective
on turning our industry's complex challenge into clear, actionable strategies. James,
welcome to.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Good company app see you having me on.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Let's dive in. On the eve of the Consumer Electronics
Show this year in January feels like a year ago.
You introduced and announced Universal Ads, a sort of one
stop shop for TV advertising platform that brings together the
top publishers with a simpler access to the premium video category.
(02:30):
I love to get underneath that and understand the vision
that you were putting forth from a Comcast perspective, but
personally your view on that, James.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah, it feels like a very long time ago that
we were in Vegas, and I'm sure it won't be
long for back there again. The genesis for universal ads
as you look at the big picture, what's clear to
everybody is that dollars caninuing to move out of the
(03:02):
traditional TV ecosystem. That's no surprise. What's interesting though, is
there's a lot of conversation about dollars shifting from linear
television into streaming and there's obviously no question connective TV
advertising is growing at a double digit clip. But the
(03:23):
reality is what's really happening is the majority of growth
is going to a couple of areas. One is YouTube
and two is into social video. So if you look
at the data, there's more dollars flowing out of the
ecosystem into social video than there is sort of switching
(03:46):
between linear and connective TV.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I want to interrupt there for a moment. Have you
left retail media out purposefully or are you looking at
retail media through a different lens?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
So retail media will be part of the universal ads story.
I can get into that, and yes, absolutely right, there
are dollars moving into retail media. I think with retail
media there will be a bit of a reckoning where
everybody is a retail media network. There will be I
think a small number of players that will be incredibly
successful and a large number that will likely go away.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
And what I'm actually hearing in the marketplace, James, and
I'm curious on your view here. I'm hearing that the
onslaught that we felt kind of over the last year
is slowing down. And you're right, you know, the cream
is going to rise. And I look at this through
the lens of You've got a wildly fragmented circumstance right now,
(04:42):
and is there going to be consolidation of that in
some way? Because you're right, the big players are going
to be able to command more. But if the move
slows down, and it's funny to call it retail media now,
because it's not just retailers to the media networks, you know,
because you've got folks like Uber and Lyft and Chase
(05:03):
Bank having media networks, I guess they're in the retail business,
but not in the way we traditionally define retail. So
I'm curious if you see that shift as well.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, and I think part of why you're going to
see a smaller number of scaled retail media networks comes
back to supply and demand dynamics, which I'll get to
to talk about universal ads and what we're solving for.
Because the reality is that with retail media networks is
obviously incredibly strong data signals that exist from a number
(05:36):
of those players, But the reality is that only a
few number of those players have scaled supply that's on platform,
and you need to be able to extend that off
platform in meaningful ways. The part of the problem there
is how do you connect a quality premium video from
the major media companies in a frictionless way to help
(06:01):
retail media networks or others find authenticated audiences sort of
off platform. And that is not simple right now for
a series of reasons. And so that is a problem
that needs to be solved, and I think that the
major media companies can be a part of that.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Solution absolutely, James, you use the words simple, So I'm
going to use that as a springboard to my next question.
One of the things that you and I have chatted
about over the years, and I know you've been a
public proponent of this is sort of stressing the need
to simplify TV. Add by it's a complicated journey. You
go on, I'd love if you could give our listeners
(06:37):
a kind of behind the scenes view of how you're
trying to do that and where you see the opportunity
and simplification totally.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
So I'm going to probably oversimplify this answer, so excuse
me for doing that in a spirit of simplification. But
when we look at things at the beginning, I said, look,
the majority of the growth is going to social video.
It's you know, it's going to YouTube. Yes, it's going
to retail media. But social video and YouTube are the
(07:06):
big winners. And you ask the question why. One of
the reasons why is that big tech has done an
incredible job and they should be applauded for this of
making buying advertising frictionless and the opposite is the case
for the big media companies. Now, one of those reasons
(07:27):
is the big tech companies have an inherent advantage in
everything that they execute is on an IP backbone versus
the media companies that have to bridge traditional linear infrastructures
with streaming infrastructures. But even that said, simple matters humans
like simple, and so that is reason one. Reason two
(07:49):
the big tech companies have done incredibly well is because
they are closer to the point of sale, and they
have done a great branding job, which is ironic considering
TV is supposed to be good at branding of coining
the term performance. And there has been an over attribution
of credit to the big tech companies who are taking
(08:11):
attribution away from the work done sort of higher up
the purchase funnel. Again, credit to them for doing that.
And the third thing is that there isn't a level
playing field. And what I mean by that, and I've
spoken pretty publicly on this point, and that is that
as more competition comes in for the same dollars. So
(08:32):
if you look at all the new players coming in
competing for TV dollars, in some instances, the rules that
the big media companies are held to in terms of
providing impression, transparency, in terms of being held to legacy
measurement models, those rules do not apply to many of
(08:52):
the new players coming in, and that is highly problematic.
And it's highly problematic because it means that when the
big media companies wake up every day in the one
hundred meter sprints of the day, they start the day
twenty meters behind the starting line because they are held
to a higher standard. And the second reason that that's
problematic is that when you look at pricing and everyone
(09:15):
looks at CPMs, that's not the metric to look at.
It's effective CPM. So when you look at the scandals
that have happened over the years, including like twenty twenty
three when YouTube got exposed for buyers thinking they were
buying true view and in fact, you know, three billion
dollars plus was being spent on Google Video Network on
(09:35):
a bunch of inventory that brands didn't think they wanted
to be associated with. The actual effective CPM that was
being paid was not great. So you know, my concern
is like why are the tragical media companies held to
a higher standard.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Well, you know, James, it's like back in the day,
I would be asked frequently if people would pay a
premium for addressable advertising. I said, well, if you could
actually deliver truly addressable advertising, maybe it wouldn't be viewed
as a premium. Maybe it would be viewed as a
fair price. Because I'm actually reaching James Rook And so
if you do that, then I wouldn't feel like I'm
(10:10):
paying a premium. I feel like I paid fair value
because I actually reached my target, you know, desired result
or you know, whatever the KPI might have been, I've
reached it. So it's interesting to look at it through
that lens. And you know, it's funny because somebody in
your role years ago, comparing New York or Philadelphia, if
(10:31):
you will, to the west coast, said, you know, there
are smart people back east as well. It's not all
it's not all in the valley, okay. And you know,
I know that that's not what you're saying, but it's
kind of what you're saying, because you know, I look
at it through a different lens when standards and practices
(10:52):
my recollection. When a different network than the one Comcast
owns had a wardrobe maultfunction at the Souper years ago,
their FCC license was going to be questioned. And I
think about that against the backdrop of what you were
saying in terms of left coast, right coast, and making
(11:13):
that distinction for purposes of just ease, that the standards
are different. I remember thinking, boy, if a wardrobe malfunction
on a broadcast network, linear TV could subject you to
losing your license. Imagine looking at brand safety on the
other side of the country, and you know, it's just
(11:34):
it's funny because I'm I'm taking a comparison that's not relevant,
but it's relevant because you're saying the same thing.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It's relevant. The irony is and then let's get back
to simplicity. The irony is the of course, healthy competition
to deliver the best return on investment of any given
dollar for a marketer. Everyone should bring that on, but
it should be whereby the rules are consistent between media
(12:01):
companies and big tech companies. And the reality is for
certain big tech companies they don't have to play by
the same rules. Firstly because of you know, historic things
down in Washington and regulation, which will be an interesting
battle over over the next few years. But secondly, the
reality is that they can play by different rules because
(12:21):
of the leverage they've gone.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Well and because of the leverage. But the market gave
them the leverage, the market allowed them.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Market gave them the leverage. But also the majority of their
revenue comes from small businesses. And so whenever any scandal
happens and everyone throws their hand up, guess what happens.
The curve keeps going to upwards into the right.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
When the boycotts happened, I remember because I was actively
involved personally, the percentage was astounding. That being a spec
that's right on the palette if you will, because SMB
was you know, eighty percent of the business.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
That's exactly right. And so the point here isn't to
moan about those things. Those are, but those are things
that need to have a spotlight show on them because
if you're a marketer, if you're a CMO, then ultimately
you want to maximize the ROI in every dollar. You
should have it transparency into where your impressions deliver, not opaqueness.
(13:17):
Otherwise you can't make those comparisons.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
But the simplicity that you create will allow SMB access
in a different way.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So this is it. So this is where I come
back to like applauding the big tech companies who have
made it simple. And if the media companies don't simplify
access to advertisers who haven't bought TV before, then those
advertisers are rightfully going to continue to move their money
(13:49):
into a small number of players because it's too hard.
And that is the big first problem that needs to
be solved. So what we are doing, and when I
say we, I'm going to talk as we the premium
video ecosystem because everything we're doing with universal ads is
trying to move an ecosystem is if you look at meta,
(14:10):
meta owns social video, if you look at YouTube, YouTube
owns short form and unscripted. If you look at premium
video or multiscreen TV, whatever you want to call it,
then it's a set of federated companies that have highly performative, engaging,
brand safe, transparent media that works. It works. But what's
(14:34):
been happening in the last few years is everybody sees
the same problem, i e. Were too hard to buy.
But everyone is moving individually at launching solutions to try
and solve that. So the majority of major media companies
have either launched their own self serve solution or they're
thinking about launching it. And our view was the problem
(14:56):
with that is we're propagating complexity and so the advertiser
is like, yeah, it's great, I can buy media company A,
B or C. But I've got three different workflows, three
different data spines in the back end, Like ah, it's
too difficult. Therefore, I'm just going to keep moving my
money where it is. So problem one that we're trying
(15:18):
to solve is and the bar that we're setting with
Universal Ads is providing a single front door experience where
there has to be zero and I mean zero learning
curve for advertisers who have been highly conditioned by the
big tech companies for how they expect to buy. That
(15:38):
is the bar. The bar is zero learning curve. So
that is what we have done as sort of step one,
and our belief is that by doing that you remove
one of the major obstacles, and that is enabling access
to scale into a product, and that product is premium
video that is highly performative with a zero learning curve
(15:58):
user experience. That sort of step one. Step two is
you then have to solve the proof of performance challenge
because we know that there's been an overallocation of attribution
through to those guys, and that's the second thing we're solving.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
And also the grading of one's own homework is a
challenge that needs to be factored into this consideration set
as well.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
It does for sure, although.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
That's the other side of the trade here though, but.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, it's the other side of the trade. We've we
just put out an announcement with a company called Measured,
and most people in the media space probably haven't heard
of companies like Measured. The reason they haven't heard of
them is these are the companies that provide third party
sort of arbitration for attribution of incrementality, which is a mouthful,
(16:49):
but what that really means is how much did one
media channel contribute to the cell, how much incrementality did
it deliver? And that is how players like Meta and
Google and others, that is the ecosystem they work in.
So what we're going to do with Universal ads is
we're not going to be measured by Nielsen and comScore
(17:12):
and video app like that's that's not what we're going
to do. We are going to be part of the
ecosystem where companies that have built their businesses on social
and YouTube. We're going to be part of that mix.
And our strong hypothesis and ours is not Comcast. Ours
is all the big media companies are involved.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
And by the way, you're facilitating this the industry.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
That's right. We believe that truth is on our side
here and that we will demonstrate the meaningful incrementality that
our products deliver to a marketer and what's been fascinating
is we've spoken to over two hundred and fifty cmos
from sort of growth stage businesses that have never bought TV,
(17:55):
and the resounding feedback is we companies are seeing diminishing
returns from social video. We are running out of qualified audiences.
We desperately want to access the good stuff, but it
is too hard to do it. Make it easy. And
(18:15):
then once it's made it easy, which we've done, is
you have to integrate with the players, the measurement partners
and others that we work with, and then at least
you have an opportunity to go on offense.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Good company will be right back after the break. Leveling
the playing field is an important thing. And I had
a conversation with somebody the other day. This goes back
(18:51):
to one of my pet peeves of what's my password
for this site or that site? You know, when it's
too complicated, what do I do? I just forget about
it and I don't go read that article because I
can't go remember what the password was there. And you know,
it's the same thing again what I said earlier. I'm
dumbing it down for me. That's what the marketplace is
saying to you, and hats off to Comcast for listening,
(19:15):
and hats off on behalf of the industry, and I
mean this for taking the step to do what's necessary
to give the SMB community a real choice.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Thank you, And look now it comes down to execution excellence.
And you know, the headwinds are strong, but for me
sort of waking up every day, what motivates me is
having the ability to swing and go for it. You know.
That's what we're doing. And the other way that we
think about this is worst case scenario, we as a
(19:50):
collective industry are unable to demonstrate the performance power of
premium video. I'm very confident we will, but if we don't,
then I'm now sort of coming back to the fourteen
thousand because everything I've been talking about is outside the
fotunen thousand. And when we talk about SMBs, there are
(20:10):
many sort of stratifications of SMBs. There's Joe's Pizza at
the local, local level, but there are gross stage businesses
that spend millions and millions every month on advertising but
have not spent one dollar on TV. Like there's a
wide set of clients to go after that. However, worst case,
if you fail, there I don't think we will, but
(20:33):
if you do, then you still have to come back
to the core client base of the big media companies,
which is the fourteen thousand, and the principles that we've
been talking.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
About apply across there. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
No, we have to make it simple.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
This is a win win because it either wins on
the new front or I'm using new front I don't
mean new fronts. It either wins on that side or
wins on the traditional side, but it wins. And you
also talked about commondeering is probably a good way to
say what you said about the word performance. The tech
companies had commandeered the word performance or took ownership of it.
(21:12):
I've struggled over the last few years with the concept,
not struggled, but it's been an opportunity, candidly, the blending
of brand and performance.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
And you know what you're talking about here is the
ability to look at those two words coming together. I
protected a word in the market which I've talked about
for a few years, and I think you and I
have talked about it, James, which is brandformance. Because it
was the idea of infusing the same data the same
you know, results, orientation, that one has on performance against brand,
(21:46):
because why wouldn't you if it's available to you, you
bring them together in some way, not just organizationally, but
structurally and how you go to market. And I think
you're kind of talking about that as well here.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, very much agree. And my colleague at our sister company,
NBC Universal, Marshal, is very loud on this on this
topic because both of us and you know, the heads
of sales of all the big media companies feel very
aligned on this point. Premium video is performative, and it
is a full funnel solution period and and and that
(22:21):
has been proven time and time and time and time again.
There's been sort of three to four billion dollars plus
in the last three or four years that has entered
TV from first time TV buyers, and those direct consumer
companies have some of the most sophisticated back end attribution models,
data scientists, et cetera. And they know that they know
(22:44):
that it works. However, and there's there's a big However,
we can pat ourselves on the back that those post
campaign results that show up in reports X months later
show good outcomes, but that's not good enough. That is
not good enough. So for me. It comes down to
(23:05):
being able to operationalize the same way that big tech
companies can, the ability to show incrementality. And what I
mean by that is when a campaign is running, we
need to be able to show the impact that that
campaign is having, for example on search results or on
(23:25):
website lift or through using first party pixels. Be able
to show the impact on driving traffic to purchase pages
or ultimately app downloads or whatever it may be. Trying
to fight the battle at bottom bottom of funnel is
a losing battle. What we think is interesting is mid
funnel and being able to demonstrate in near real time
(23:47):
mid funnel impact, then you can show, sometimes deterministically, but
often probabilistically, what that halo effect is on lower funnel.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And James, you said something that really resonated with me,
because is getting the results a few weeks later doesn't
work in the SMB market any better than it does
in the large brand market. Why Because the SMB, my bet,
this is a hunch, is overwhelmingly retail, as we describe
(24:17):
retail with a capital R retail, and they need real
time results. I know when I ran a media agency
and bought media for a large entertainment company. Me telling
them three weeks later that that campaign on opening that
movie didn't work doesn't do them any good at all.
(24:38):
They need Saturday morning results, they need Friday at noon results.
They need to be able to know. And you're talking
about retail. That's why the dashboard capability, that real time feedback,
the ability to change on a dime, has to be
available for this playing field to get leveled.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
That's exactly right. So if you go back to two things,
it's simplest and it's proof of performance, and both of
them are about making it easy and doing it quickly. So
like if you talk to on the first one, if
you talk to chief investment officers at the major agencies
and they say to you, hey, if i've got making
numbers up, I've got ten million dollars, I've got to
(25:16):
move on a Friday. I need to start that Friday
morning and get it done by Friday night. Ten million
dollars is going to a few large, big tech players,
and those chief investment officers don't necessarily want to do
that because they understand they would ideally like to allocate
a percentage of that to the big media companies because
it's performative and it works, but they have no choice
(25:37):
because it's too difficult. So again the simplicity mantra applies
regardless if you're talking about Joe's pizza or chief investment
officer at an agency, and then on proof performance, exactly
the same if you think about addressable advertising. Addressable advertising
is growing in a really healthy way. But if I
(25:58):
was to hold the mirror to ourselves, and we do
a lot of dress ball advertising ourselves, we have to
improve the SLA. We have to improve the time by
which the impact of those results get in the hands
of the media planner and the media buyer so they
can make the adjustments in campaign. It's just a reality.
And so this brand formance you know concept is I'm
(26:19):
not saying there shouldn't be money spent on search. There
should be money spent on search. I'm just saying that
the bleeding between the two worlds, the war has to
collapse between the two and that comes back also to
this level playing field concept we talked about. Because I'll
also tell you and I'm sure you know this as well,
there is frustration within the agencies with regard to the
(26:42):
opaqueness or the lack of transparency they get from certain
big tech companies around where impressions are delivered, as we
talked about earlier, but also, you know, under the guise
of AI and under the protection of data privacy, unable
to actually show what's going on in terms of why
(27:03):
dollars are being allocated where they are. I've heard from
agencies that a lot of the recommendations coming back from
the wonderful AI algorithms are saying you should put more
money in branded search. Shocking, and so you know, we
know the game's going on, but we can complain about
it again.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Or or you can do something about it, or we.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Could do something about it. And so I'm going to
continue to sort of shine spotlights on areas that I
think are problematic. But that's not good enough. We've got
to do something about it. And that's sort of the
call to action.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
And you certainly have heard that clarion call and stepped up, James.
Can we switch gears and talk about audience express and
kind of the strategy for premium content providers? Can you
shine some light on that for us?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Sure, I think from a monetization standpoint, obviously I won't
talk on behalf of the media companies if I'm going
to wear my free Will hat for a second. Free Will,
you know, free Wills want to be assets is part
of Comcast Advertising and one of our crown jewels. We
think it plays a crucial role as an industry platform
to help, to your point, enable publishers to be able
(28:13):
to monetize their scarce supply in a way that sort
of maximizes yield and delivers on the outcomes that they're
responsible for. For marketers, the way we think about it
is as viewing fragments. The job for free Will is
to be able to support the media company in being
(28:35):
able to reaggregate that fragmented audience and therefore bring sort
of a single pool of supply into which demand can compete.
And then when you look at demand, as you know,
the world has gone from everything being direct sold insertion
order to what we see now and it's still pretty low.
(28:58):
Is across free Will clients only a twenty five percent
of total supplies being monetized through programmatic pipes, and of
that probably eighty percent is programmatic guaranteed and the rest
is through private marketplaces. But the job for free Will
is to be able to maximize demand density onto the
(29:19):
supply of a publisher. So what that means in English
is anytime a user presses play on a video on
a Fox, An, NBC or Warner Brothers show, you want
all the possible demand to compete for that impression, and
that is demand that comes from the direct sales team,
or that is demand that comes from the trade desk, Xander, Google,
(29:41):
three sixty, whatever it may be, and that is sort
of goal on. What's interesting though, is going back to
what we talked about before, is the majority of that
demand that competes for media companies supply is still coming
from the Fortune thousand and So this comes back to
what we're trying to do with the rest of the
media industry on universal ads is increase the amount of
(30:04):
demand that can compete for that supply by enabling thousands
of new advertisers that have never bought TV to also
have an opportunity to buy that impression. That is good
for the reasons we talked earlier, but it is also
good for the media company because it increases demand density,
and then you go back to one oh one economics,
that is a good thing. So for me, it's pretty
(30:26):
simple in terms of sort of our role as an
operator of freewheel is to work on behalf of the
publisher to enable them to reaggregate their fragmented audience and
enable the maximum amount of demand to compete for that
supply so they can maximize the yield on that inventory.
And on the flip side, for the agency, I'm going
(30:47):
to bring us back, Michael, to simplicity. For the big agencies.
We want them to be able to have the most
direct path as the crow flies to the major supply
pools where they can find the audiences that they need
to on behalf of the marketer and I go there
because as we've been talking about simplicity for a lot
(31:09):
of this, I would argue that as the world moves
to more programmatic, the media supply chain is broken and
it is the opposite of simple, and I think that
is sort of highly problematic.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
We're going to hit pause for a moment, but stay
with us after the break, we've got more insights to share.
There is an open dialogue between the agencies and the
market and solving that problem, especially at the agency level,
(31:48):
because that's where the bulk of obviously premium money is
coming from, not the SMB money, but the premium money.
Is coming from. That's the cinequanon of this conversation is
the investment leads at the agencies.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
That's right. And I know this may sound glass at
full but I have a strong belief that there is
a shared incentive from the end marketer, the brand marketer,
whoever the marketer is, and the agency and the publisher
to be able to simplify the media supply chain so
(32:26):
that route demand gets to root supply in the most
efficient way possible. And the reason there's a lining center,
I think there are aligned incentives there ultimately, even if
that's not the case today, is because I think we
have to look at the world through two lenses with
this question or two stakeholders. One is the marketer and
(32:47):
two is the consumer. And for the marketer, the goal
is how do we maximize working media for that marketer,
And in today's programmatic world, too much working media is
coming out of the leaky pipe to intermediaries. That's unnecessary. Absolutely,
So that's sort of number one. And number two is
the viewer and the viewer experience, and the viewer experience
(33:11):
gets interrupted or made more difficult to deliver with excellence
when you have speed bumps along the way in terms
of so many intermediaries, and so one good example of this,
the freewheel is very focused on, and I think is
in fact the whole industry is focused on. It is
live sports. And if you look at what's happening with
(33:33):
live sports and the shift to streaming, now, intersect that
trend line with the growth in programmatic. When you intersect
live sports for programmatic, it sounds yay. This is a
huge opportunity and it's great for everyone. It is in
nightmare because technology players aren't ready to support these massive
(33:54):
spikes in viewership. Viewer experience is not where it needs
to be, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so
when I think about cleaning up the media supply chain,
I look at it through the lens of look, we
need to maximize working media for the brand. Everyone is
incentivized to do that, and we have to be able
to make this transition from you know, traditional linear into
(34:14):
a world of streaming where ultimately everything will be IP
delivered in a way the looks after the viewer experience.
Otherwise dollars will sort of move out the ecosystem because
eyeballs will. So that for me and for comcost advertising
is a big focus and we're working very closely with
the agencies and the publishers to be able to bring
(34:35):
that to life.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Well, James, you deserve the Congressional Medal of Honor because
I know you. It's the old expression about pioneers and settlers.
Pioneers take the arrow, settlers get the land. I think
you're probably taking some arrows on this road, but you're
getting the appropriate land. I love to kind of round
out these conversations with a bit of a lightning round. Yeah,
(34:57):
we've covered a lot of important ground today, and I
so appreciate it because your insights are valuable and the
listeners should be rewarded and properly so for being able
to hear this in language that is understandable. So I
appreciate that and I thank you for that. But now
I'm going to give you a little bit of a
(35:17):
lightning round and I'm going to throw some questions at you,
and you can go as deep or as shallow as
you want on the answers. But let me get it started.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
So I have phone a friend abilities or yeah, no, no, no,
this is.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
All your baby. What's one small habit in your daily
routine that brings you unexpected joy.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
One small habit, this isn't maybe a habit, but one
small event that happens that brings me unexpected joy is
when I have emails forwarded to me that have come
from lower levels of the organization and they've been forwarded six, seven,
(35:58):
eight times and end up in my desk, and are
small wins that have happened in some of our media
markets where we've been fighting hard, where we've been talking
about something on global town halls, where we've launched, we've
launched a new capability or whatever it may be, and
(36:18):
seeing that salesperson call it in and ring the bell
and say what a difference it made? Like that is
that is meaningful because it gives you hope and it
gives you confidence that you are moving from sort of
strategy through to execution and making a client impact. So
for me, those are the those are the times that
(36:39):
are great because in my role, a lot of what
I get problems and so when you get those emails
that that is something that makes me very happy.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Well, that should bring you joy. I got an answer
from somebody which was they like to put on their
bathroobe when they get home so yours answer was an
entirely different but it's all good.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
It's all good if you want that version. You and
I've talked about this over drinks and it's something that
takes a lot of discipline. But my greatest point of
joy every single day is when I get home and
I get to lie in bed with my five year
old daughter my eight year old daughter, read them a
(37:20):
story and it puts in perspective what's important in life,
and they want me every night I have to tell
them a story about something in my childhood, which is
interesting because you have to think back to, Oh my god,
I love my childhood. And it's the connection with my
kids where whatever's been going on in the day life.
(37:41):
Coming back to the simplification theme of this whole podcast
is everything seems simpler and purer and it makes me smile.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Well, that's a good one, and we did talk about that,
and I know how important that is. Speaking of the
younger people in your life, if you could give your
your younger self one piece of advice, what would it be.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Be the person that always says yes to whatever the
opportunity may be, even if it feels nerve wracking to you,
because You never know where it's going to take you
and what you may learn, even if it turns out
that it's something that's not that interesting to you. The
worst case, you make new people and build new connections
(38:23):
and learn what you do and don't like. And for me,
do that without asking for reward or whatever it may be.
Just say yes and take the leap, and you never
know it's going to take you.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
It's a great outlook. Was there a mentor earlier in
your career that you could identify and was there a
particular piece of advice that that mentor or many of
us are fortunate to have more than one mentor, but
is there one that sticks out for you? And was
there any one particular piece of advice that that mentor
gave you or any mentor.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
My first boss I was in the UK, working in London,
working in consulting for my sins, and my first boss
was a woman called Claire Eichenbach. Claire actually Michael is
now She lives in New York and she's a CEO
of the James Beard Foundation, So you may have crossed
parts with her.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
I did because Wenda Mallard, my partner many years ago,
was on the board of the James Beard Foundation, So
I did have the ability to get to know some
of the folks there.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
So that's the content and by the way, and I
ate well as a result, I would expect. So the
impact that Claire has had on me and continues to
have on me as a mental to me is pretty profound.
She was a senior member of the team and I
was a junior member of the team, and the number
one lesson I learned from her is that she treated
(39:50):
all of the junior members, the sort of analysts at
that time, as if we were senior members of the team.
And what I mean by that is she was transfer
barn and built trust through transparency with all of us
where she was sort of with the troops in the trenches,
and she would always provide big picture context of what
(40:11):
was going on, which meant that when we went back
to the little cog that we were running as an analyst,
we had context, We had context, and to be treated
as an adult and with that level of maturity and
trust meant we wanted to work so damn hard for her.
And it is a lesson that stayed with me where
I know that in my organization now, the answers lie
(40:37):
where the work is being done.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
James, you said it at the beginning of this part
of the conversation when you said a happy place for
you is when your local teams come back to you.
So you're consistent on that, and what I love about that.
My story a little different an early mentor to me
when I started my career practicing law, and I know
I'm asking you the questions, but I'll share this because
(41:00):
it's in line with what you just talked about. He
was the kind of guy, the senior partner in this
law firm. I have the ability to look out my
window and see the Pacific Ocean, which is a special thing.
What he would do is let you swim as far
as you could, no matter what band you were in.
If we're talking about employee band, you know, first year,
second year, whatever wherever you were. It didn't matter. If
(41:23):
you could swim, he would let you swim. And by
the way, if you swam a little further than you
should have, he would throw you a life round and
he'd probably do that the second time. The third time
he'd probably say keep swimming. But the ability to empower
people that way, either through information as you just said,
and context or the ability to just let them swim.
(41:48):
That's a brilliant contribution from a leader, and.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
I love that because you're right. When I advise those
sort of early on in their career. Is one thing
I'll always say is that you want to live a
little bit outside your comfort zone.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
You want to look at it outside your band.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yes, that's well said. You want to feel in your
chest it's a little bit nerve wracking and it's a
little bit tight because that is where growth happens, and
in particular in today's world, where the media entertainment's industry
is moving at such pace, you have a choice. You
can wake up every day and look at the world
(42:23):
and say this is a threat, this is scary, or
you can wake up every day and say, look, this
is just the reality of the industry. Have chosen to
work in. I am going to lean in and I'm
going to see it as opportunity. It is a choice.
Doesn't mean it's going to be easier, but it's a
choice about how you approach your day.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
Absolutely, James Rook, I can't thank you enough for taking
this time today. I know that I've learned a lot
and I am certain that our listeners will as well.
You are a total gentleman, and you are a tribute
to this industry and a gift to this industry. James Rook,
thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
I'm Michael Casson, Thanks for listening to Good Company.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Good Company is brought to you by Three C Ventures
and iHeart Podcasts. Special thanks to Alexis Borger Purdeo, our
executive producer and head of Content and Talent, and to
Carl Catle, executive producer at iHeart Podcasts. Episodes are produced
and edited by Mary Doo. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
We'll see you next time.
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