May 3, 2022 • 43 mins
KLUTCH Sports Group Founder & CEO Rich Paul is on a rocket ship, growing a powerhouse sports agency with over $1 billion in negotiated contracts and star clients including the likes of LeBron James, Anthony Davis, and John Wall. We chat with the entrepreneur about the upbringing that’s shaping his current success and his partnership with UTA. Plus, he talks about driving the reversal of the NCAA’s so-called “Rich Paul Rule” and what he really looks for in talent.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good Company is a production of I Heart Radio. I
couldn't be in a better place, in a better position,
extremely happy for what we've been able to build. We're
growing faster than than a newborn baby, for sure. Hi,
I'm Michael Casson. Welcome to Good Company, where I'll explore
(00:21):
how marketing, media, entertainment and tech are intersecting, transforming our
lives and the way we do business at a breakneck speed.
I'll be joined by some of the greatest business minds
and strongest leaders who will share how they build companies
from the ground up or transform them from the inside out.
My bed is you'll pick up a lesson or two
along the way. It's all good. It's really a great
(00:43):
pleasure to welcome Rich Paul to Good Company. Rich is
the CEO and founder of Clutch Sports. Doesn't need too
much of an introduction, as Clutch Sports and Rich Paul
have become synonymous with leadership in sports in the agency
side of the business US and the exciting part for me,
of course, is when Media Link joined forces with the
(01:06):
United Talent Agency at the end of One of the
great benefits of that was the ability to call Rich
Paul my partner and my friend, so rich, welcome, thank you,
thank you for the kind words, and uh, I appreciate
you allowed me to get on and have this conversation.
Is pretty much just a typical dinner nite for us,
but we'll do it at at tend There you go,
(01:28):
so rich your story, and you know, I had the
pleasure of hearing it directly from you, and I know
our audience will will love to hear your story. But
can you just kind of give us a little bit
of a picture of how you got started? And you know,
it's a funny thing to say how you climb the ranks,
because I think you traversed them in a way that
it's kind of never been done. You kind of went
(01:50):
in auto terms from zero to sixty and about two seconds,
putting yourself right in the center of the action in sports.
But I loved it. Just talk about kind of where
you got started. And as my friend Jeffrey Katzenberg once said,
when he asked somebody who's a singer, when he wants
to know their motivation, he says to them, who was
(02:10):
the artist and what was the song? So I would
say to you, you know, who was it and what
was it that that kind of catapulted you. I think
my dad was my biggest motivation. You know, my story
is a story of faith, it really is, and passion too,
But my dad was probably my biggest motivation. And I
think my environment was my my biggest push. You know,
(02:35):
I come from a place in which we have very
few outlets, have very few options, there's zero infrastructure. The
education that you are able to obtain through public resources
is very what I would say, basic basic education. And
(02:56):
so you know, as a kid, I looked around, I
saw things at a very early age I probably shouldn't have.
I heard things I probably shouldn't have. But also the
bright side of that was the world that I live
in today. I know that it's not necessarily everyday life
for every one, and so it allows me to have
(03:19):
a great balance, allows me to actually appreciate the position
that I'm in and some of the things I've been
able to do along with my team over over the
course of the past ten years. And the grind. It
really allows you to appreciate the grind. Nothing was given,
everything was earned and will continue to be and as
(03:39):
it pertains to the to the clients that we are
able to represent, it allows you to have this relatability
and understanding of each other as people first, not being
seen as just a transaction or a fee. We've been
able to build the business on the foundation of that integrity,
and so I couldn't be in a better place and
a better position, Extremely happy for what we've been able
(04:02):
to build. We're growing faster than than a newborn baby,
for sure, and it's a lot of fun. It's a
lot of fun, well rich. It's interesting. You know. I'd
tell people, and this might surprise you, but I tell
people that my parents did me a great service and
they did me a disservice. The great service was I
grew up early. I grew up fast. I had two
(04:24):
older sisters, and so whether it was social or other
aspects of life, I was exposed to a lot as
the youngest and the only child, the only boy. And
you know with with older sisters, you tend to grow
up a little faster. It just you know, you're part
of the equation in a different way from me. And
I've always said, I don't know that I had a
(04:44):
proper childhood. I didn't have an improper childhood, but again,
I was exposed to things that were probably beyond my years.
You know, when movies start started putting ratings on them. Um,
you know, you couldn't see a PG thirteen or are
or what have you. My family didn't have that filter
of PG thirteen. Yeah, no, And it's it's really interesting,
(05:07):
but I think it contributed a lot to you know,
whatever monicum amount of success I've been able to achieve.
And similar to you, those things are motivators and you know,
again are are growing up experiences were likely you know,
different but but similar in that way that on the
one hand, it made me, it made me a better person.
(05:28):
On the other hand, I kind of felt like some
of the some of the childhood stuff escaped me. So
it's interesting that that, you know, we hadn't had that
conversation before. It can be a sword and a shield
when you have that exposure too early, what you know,
the idea of too much too soon can really you know,
screw up a lot of people. In your case, it
(05:49):
obviously acted as a as a projectile, and in my
case it did too because I just felt like I
was already there. I was already older. I already needed
to become ridding myself as an older person because I
felt older. That's I mean, yeah, that aligned directly with
how I grew up. It was a se sauce sort
of speaking with the good and the bad. But what emotion? Emotion?
(06:13):
I think it's necessary as well. I think I wouldn't
change I wouldn't change anything. Rich Let me go back
to that question though, what was the singer and what
was the song? You know, who was the artist and
what was the song? What made you realize that that
you know sports and you know representation. I'm sure you
didn't think about it in that context at that moment,
(06:34):
but what was that moment? And I know you've told
me a story about a jersey. I'd love you to
share that story. Yeah, I think the I think the
artists from a figure to perspective was probably just Um
warm Moon as a sports figure. You know, that jersey met.
My understanding of who warm Moon was and being a
(06:57):
fan of his led me to purchasing his jersey, and
that jersey got the attention at that time in that moment,
a young man happened to be uh Lebron James. But
you know, I think again the song was was just
it wasn't a specific song, it was just entrepreneurial spirit.
(07:21):
You know I had that as a kid, I had that.
I don't know. I guess my dad would probably say
I might have been two or three years of age. Um.
And I was always very aware of my surroundings and
able to understand the detail and in the different characters
(07:42):
of people, you know, because I was able to see
characters every day all day, you know, because my dad
on the corner store and you're in the corner in
the neighborhood. There's all type of characters that come, male, female, kids, adults,
It don't matter. And so you know, one day I
took a bus trip and it was my friend's mom
(08:04):
was throwing a bus trip and I was really at
his house to visit him. And when she explained to
me they were having this bush trip, I was being
I was really being supportive, and I said, you know,
I'll pay for four four people to go. Gave her
the money and I didn't think twice about it. So
about three weeks later, it was in the wee hours
(08:27):
the morning, I get this call and it's my friend's
mom and I'm like hello, She's like, um, you know, basically,
where you guys at. I'm like, who is you guys?
You know? What are you talking about? She's like, we're
at the At that time, it was it was Tops
and Tops was a grocery store chain in Ohio. It
was it's sort of like Rouse here, and they would
(08:50):
park the cars there for the bus to meet him. Indeed,
you would go. And I was like, um, well what
do you What are you asking me to do? And
she was like, we're waiting on you. We can't leave.
Were waiting on you. So I was like, I didn't
really want to go. I was paying for someone else
to go. And she was like, well, we're here. And
I was with a friend of mine and he was like, well, man,
we might as well just go. And so we went
(09:12):
and we're only men, the only men on this bus.
And we go to New York City and we get
off on Canal Street and they were going to bargain shop,
which all understand, but I wasn't a bargain shopper. And
so we got in the cab and we went over
to Fifth Avenue and did some shopping and whatnot. And
then the last stop I made was an NBA store
(09:35):
and I was going to get a jersey I had
been wanting for a while because I was known to like, say, sneakers.
So I would have sneakers for like six months and
we're wearing It's a weird thing I would do before
this whole sneaker thing went crazy. But but nevertheless, I
was there and I was in line. I had the
jersey I wanted and it was actually the Trails Freewell Nicks.
(09:57):
I wanted to go with these bow Jackson I had
had for And at the corner of my eye, I
saw this little area and it was and I was
asked to guys, said what is that over there? He said,
that's our new hardwood classics, and I said hardwood classics.
So they had an Elgin Baylor Lakers, a Bill Russell Celtics,
and they had an Oscar Robberson Bucks. I bought two
(10:19):
to three Celtics, I mean Bucks and Lakers and got
to the register and I didn't even look at the
price of the of these jerseys. So when I got
to the register, my balance jumped off. It jumped all
the way up, and I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, what
the hell the day he goes? Hey, man, each one
of these is like three So I was like, So
(10:42):
I was like, okay, So I bought him, and I'm
mosy on we get back because the bus is going
back that day. It's not like you're spending night and
check into a hotel. So hot back on and we
get back. And in Cleveland, Thursday through Sundays the biggest
club nights. And so I wear these two jerseys to
the club different nights. And I just got this crazy
response Michael, and I'm like, hmm, so that Sunday is
(11:05):
our biggest night. And I might have got home in
like five in the morning. And I bought my first
home when I was nineteen years old, so where yeah,
And I had this little makeshift, makeshift office because I
was trying to put myself through college. I was going
like two days out of the week. And I stayed
up all night thinking about this jersey response I was getting,
(11:30):
and I googled. It wasn't even Google you, I don't
think I put in the A. O. L. Hardwood Classics.
First thing that came on the search was this story
in Atlanta called Distant Replays. And when I went on
their site, they had all these different jerseys and that
caused me to stay up till nine in the morning.
And I was the first person to call this story
(11:51):
and the guy answers and I get to talk to
him about jerseys on the side and said, well, we
don't have this where we have this one blah blah blah.
And over time I developed a relationship with this with
this guy, and I would buy jersey from me every
week and I would ram to the club and I
would get the same response. I did this for for
two months straight, and finally, after the two months. His
(12:13):
name was Andy Hyman. I asked Andy. I said, Andy,
do you think it's possible that I can invest in
your business? And he said, if you're serious, fly down
to Atlanta and see me. Well, I had one major problem.
I had never flown before because we would drive everywhere,
you know, for for sports and things like that. We
(12:34):
would always dry And so a friend of mine said
to me, I told him about this conversation I had.
He said, you know what, my high school classmates, they
all go to clark in More house. They live in Atlanta.
So I booked the flight. You just pay me the
money back and we can stay at my friend's house
in Marietta. You go to your meeting, we'll hang out
and come on back. So that's what we did. I
(12:56):
didn't know he was gonna book this flight out of
akron Kent Airport. I thought he would book it out
of Cleveland. You know, Hopkins, you got Delta and goes
right there. He was trying to save money on the
purchase of the ticket. But we have to go forty
five minutes to Act from Canton and come back forty
five minutes. So time is money, it's what It's the
way I would think. Luckily, that's not how he was thinking.
(13:19):
And so through my travels, one day I'm at the
gate and these kids are I see these tall kids,
and they're like looking at me. I'm looking at them
and I don't know what they want, you know. And
and then one of them asked me, like, hey man,
what kind of jerseys that you have? Bre And I
go into explaining and we get on the plane and
get the baggage claim. Here they come again. And so
(13:41):
I gave him my business card and I said, listen,
go to this store. If you have any problems. If
I'm not there, have him called me. You can use
my discount. Sure enough, and he calls me. But I'm
back in Cleveland. And when he calls me, and he goes,
there's some kids in here. They're shopping and dropping your name.
I said, what they buying and say buying one? Jursey
(14:02):
said which one? Because we always wanted to know what
someone was buying Magic Johnson Lakers. I said, okay, so yeah,
they can use my discount. By the way, Rich, Rich,
you understood then how important data was. Okay, you you
were trying to you were you were getting the data,
so you were ahead, you were prescuted, you were ahead
of the curve. You understood that data was gonna be
(14:23):
predictive for your business. So that's a that's an important
message to the audience. Trust me. Yeah, And without knowing
data back then, I guess. So I guess you're right,
and that kid end up being Lebron James. Out of nowhere.
That's good data. That's good literally out of nowhere. And
so that started the relationship. But then, you know, I
(14:43):
was always a kid into sports and into fashion and
into culture, and that's what I was known for my neighborhood.
I was known for being very fashion forward, like in
I think I got pictures of this definitely in seven,
you know, wearing DC and why my jeans were a
(15:04):
little slimmer and everyone else's. And I remember having like
a Versace shirt, you know VERSACEI he didn't think it
made and it was tight at a moment where guys
were there, but you know, it was me, So people
didn't really make fun of me. They wanted to more so. No,
what that was, and that was like my my thing
growing up. It really was. Well, you haven't lost that.
(15:27):
You're still a fashion east. I'll tell you you got
some stuff. You've got some style going on. No one
gets put clothes on here, so I just wear hoodie. Yeah, Rich,
you know, you you broke a milestone, not recently, but
some time ago with you know, a nice round number
(15:49):
of representation and contracts and and you know clients generating
you know, in excess of a billion dollars in contract value.
Probably you know, I've seen numbers anywhere from a billion
to two billion dollars in contract value on behalf of
some of the boldest face names in sport. Let's be clear.
(16:11):
I mean, whether it's Lebron or Anthony Davis or you know,
go down the list. There's there's the envy of all.
But I think the part of your story that is
so interesting, not many people. And I'll tell you again,
maybe this is a similarity in our backgrounds would put
me in the media business. Was actually rewriting a law.
(16:33):
As crazy as that sounds, I represented a client when
I was a lawyer rich and that client got into
a bankruptcy circumstance and I was a tax lawyer, but
I helped change a law. I went to Washington on
behalf of a client back in and actually wrote a law.
But I actually wrote a sentence that is still on
the books of the United States Bankruptcy Code because it
(16:55):
was around fairness in a in a particular provision. And
a senator from Ohio, uh, Howard met Zimbaum, who was
your senator, turned out to be an extraordinarily close friend
of mine and changed the course of my career. And
I mean that genuinely great respect and affection for Howard
met Zimbaum. And that name is it's just crazy that
(17:18):
you say that, because Metsinbaum for me growing up, was
a place that they took kids that were didn't have parents.
Yeah really, I'm sure. I'm sure named after his family. Yeah,
so so that's that's a funny, separate story. But the
senator from Ohio changed my career, and I probably wouldn't
(17:40):
be in the media business if it wasn't for Howard
met Zimbaum in a funny kind of crazy way. But um,
you know, I get to write a law. They wrote
a law for you, the so called Rich Paul rule.
I'd love you to give some some some background on
that and and you know what led to that, and
you know, and and its hats off to you for
(18:01):
getting people to pay attention to what probably was a
law that needed to be rewritten or a rule that
needed to be changed. Yeah. Look, I think for many
years that there has always been a monopoly uh in
the industry of sports and representation just in general, and
you can say probably in in representation in the Hollywood
(18:23):
space as well. And the biggest thing was they weren't
used to the black face, um, especially an unapologetic black face.
UM A young you know, do things my way. I'm
going to add fashion forward, um you know, um, not
(18:48):
afraid of conflict, not playing the the game of you know,
lie to your client while doing lunch with the owner
type of face. They weren't used to that. And the
barriers that were placed and the challenges that were placed
was from a collective. You know, it wasn't just a
CIA that were trying to make it hard for me
(19:10):
when I decided to start Clutch. It was everybody involved,
all the competitors involved, whether they were you know, given
information to media outlets or trying to drive a wadge
amongst clients and things like that through false information. And
so when the Rich Paul rule came about that restriction
(19:34):
number one, it made absolutely no sense because you know,
any in the representation business, the best agents are more,
you know, they learned more from the hands on experience,
and they can never learn from having a degree, right, Like,
what is the degree going to do for you in
this space? And so I felt like what they knew
(19:56):
was there was less people of color to even have degrees,
because an education is something that it's not the first
thing you think about when you're trying to survive in
everyday life. And I knew that my ribs is touching
because of hunger. How the hell I'm gonna think about
opening this book to understand the opt to triangle or
(20:18):
the A word problem, or if I have to write
this paper in the m l A format, I can
give a ship that's about that. When I got my
siblings here that that's hungry, you know, And so I
was really disturbed by it. And you know, they make
up these rules and they create these narratives in this
(20:39):
perception um based upon how they view you. So we know,
higher education wasn't something that people of color was going
to be able to obtain in abundance. So therefore, all
of a sudden, you gotta be or were You're supposed
to be a lawyer. To be able to be an agent,
you had to have a law degree. That's what it
(20:59):
would said to be. So now if you are someone
of color and you do have a law degree, then
you're accepted because that's going to be a small it's
still gonna be a small group of people. When I
came along, it became a thing where you don't want
to be with somebody that listens to your type of music,
or that doesn't wear a suit, or that goes to
the club with you. Those are all things that I
(21:22):
actually did. And so when the competition would be in
the rooms, they would say, knowing that they probably meet
with me next or met with me prior, not to
do these things. And it became a thing to where
you know, you want to be with us because we're
in this space. Well, it's funny how today is every
(21:44):
chance they get to hire the young, cool black guy,
they do it and they'll pay them double triple because
they think that's all Rich Paul is. And so we
just got to duplicate that, which is pretty adya to
think about that, But that's your where it is now.
It used to be we wanted to you had to
have the qualifications. Now you just gotta have the cool.
(22:08):
My thing is great. So the Rich Paul rule, they
bring that with trying to light on it, and it
goes away because they knew that was not right. They
knew that that was just something that I that I
felt like they put these stipulations in these restrictions and
regulations about what right that not in this because this
(22:28):
is the one business that we're in that that actually
don't apply. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not for
anyone just jumping into being a representation business because it's
a big business. You are advising young men and women
at the highest level. You're doing contracts the highest level,
so the capabilities have to be there, but you don't
(22:52):
necessarily have to have capabilities with the degree capabilities could
just be capabilities, right. You know it wasn't you or me.
It was Mark McCormick who wrote a great book called
What You Don't Learn at Harvard Business School, and you
are the personification of that. But but my journey came
through experience. Like people don't understand my dad. I worked
(23:14):
in my dad's store since I was like six years
of age. Right there, you learn customer service. Where in
the service business you learn that, you know, whether it's
you learn marketing. I was there when the friedolay Man
came in and he's introducing the coup ranch to Rito.
This is so now He's explained to you why we
(23:34):
want to showcase this blue bag when the red bag
has been selling for the loan. You know, Richard's so interesting.
When I was in um High school, maybe I was
a freshman in college, I knew that I was going
to be I knew I was going to go to
law school. At that point, I also knew that I
didn't want to practice law forever. I knew that for
me it was a means to an end. But I
(23:56):
knew I wanted to go to law school. And I
said to my dad, add, can you call your lawyer
and see if I can get a job working in
a law firm, you know, as an not I wasn't
ready to be an intern, but you know, as a
gopher as in the mail whatever, you know, just to
be around a law firm. And my dad called his
lawyer and said the lawyer's name was Max. I'll never forget,
and he said, Max Michael would like to have a
(24:17):
job working in a law firm because he wants to
go to law school ultimately. And Max's advice to my
dad was not what he should do. Let him go,
park cars, let him go. We'll learn how to deal
with people. He can. He's got plenty of time to
be an intern and a law clerk and all of
that right now. The best thing he could do is
go learn how to deal with people. And interestingly enough,
(24:39):
the job I took that summer instead of working in
a law firm was a camp counselor. And for me,
I learned through the lens of kids. You know, I
was I was as a kid, I was a pretty
good baseball player. So sports and baseball and whatnot we're
really important to me, and particularly baseball as a kid.
And so I said, you know what, this is the
(25:00):
way I can give back. Even as a young person,
I gave back to the community. I literally found a
team at a little league that didn't have a parent
able to manage it, and I became a manager of
a little league team. I didn't have a kid. I
was in you know, I was senior in high school
or maybe a freshman in college. That was the road
I took because I said, I took that advice and
(25:20):
I said, I'm going to learn more by working with people,
and you know, being a salesman in a men's clothing
store and being a camp counselor and doing jobs like that.
Just so it's so interesting to have a master's in
denning with people from top to bottom, from the worst
to the to the to the most. You know, qualify,
you've got a PhD. You got more than a master's.
(25:41):
And so you know, I think that I tell this
all the time because you know, by us and when
I say us, you know what I've been able to accomplish,
what Mavericks been able to accomplish. Obviously, um, you know
Lebron being on the court, and you know, people kind
of lump us all together. Sometimes that's our start. We
started together and and obviously Randy as well. But they
(26:06):
look at it and say, okay, well he did that,
we should be able to do it. I said, well,
wait a minute. In order for you to be me
and your twenty you gotta be willing to be me.
And year one you don't. You don't start here, you
work your way up. And in year one there was
nothing for me to do. I'll never forget the conversation
(26:26):
when I asked, well, what am I own a salary
to do? And I never made more than forty eight
thousand dollars a year, and it was nothing. There's zero
for you to do, And so right in and there
I had to make my way. I worked at Nike
for four years understanding whether it was brand strategy, marketing
(26:48):
the athlete, the voice of the athlete, cutting so sneaker.
You know, I can. I can go into any shoot
company and work on their side as well as on
the side for for for my client, and so that
dual threat people. People don't understand the experience and the
capabilities can bind. And I'm not discouraging anyone from I
(27:11):
want people to be encouraged and to be motivated, motivated
to come into this space. But don't come into the
space with an entitlement because you're sibling or because you're
a friend. Come into this space with the understanding that
I'm not gonna get rich overnight. That's not gonna happen.
(27:33):
And I have to know what I don't know. So therefore,
my biggest value to this person that's allowing me to
have an opportunity is to understand and to know what
I don't know. So therefore, if I can identify what
I don't know, then I can go and allocate somebody
that actually does know. And that's a smart decision by me,
(27:55):
for my client or for someone that I'm working alongside everyone,
especially in my space and come from my world. We
have this mentality that we want to do it ourselves
and no one does it. Look at all these people
in this car. It's not just Rich and Michael on
the car, because no one does it by themselves. But
(28:17):
that was the mentor. And it's a trick, right, It's
a trick because what one thing about doing it by yourself?
You know what that does? That makes you devalue infrastructure,
that makes you devalue expertise, and that's not a good thing. Yeah,
Rich it's it's interesting. I grew up with a friend
who the way I described him to somebody once was
(28:39):
this was a guy who was always looking for the
easy way out, and so was I. But what I
learned early was the only way you get to the
easy way out is to work really hard, and then
you can find the easy way out. But it's not
easy to find the easy way out. You got you
gotta work hard to find it. Yeah, And and working
hard comes in several packages. Going back to the rich
(29:00):
Paul Roue, I just think that that was more based
upon trying to discourage someone to continue down the path
that they that they inspired to be. And so discouragement,
I say this all the time, has definitely killed more
people than guns. And we know how many people guns
have killed. But discouragement is just as bad. And so
(29:22):
I don't see here today in my seat to discourage anyone.
I built the business that actually has an open doorpot.
I don't care if you have a degree from Michigan
or if you have a felony. I really don't give
a shit about either one. What I care about is
who you are as a person, your ability to come
in and be willing to learn and listen, and you're
(29:42):
and develop good habits and capabilities and how you fit
within our team well and and and and that's the
great outlook. And I have to add in as a
plug for the Wolverines. I'm glad you chose Michigan because
I think you know this. All three of my kids
went to uh, the University of Michigan. So go Blue.
I'll give you that. But you know where I stand
on a book. I do. I do so rich. You
(30:05):
and I made a similar decision a couple of years apart,
but we made a similar decision to to you know,
partner and and and aligned with United Talent Agency. I
know my motivation. I'm curious what yours was and what
was what was the attraction? And you know it's interesting because,
as I say, we both made a similar decision. Both
(30:27):
had you know, fortunately built successful businesses in their own right.
And you know I'd sold once before, as you know,
but I bought it back with you t A. You know,
you made that decision in what was it that you
saw that would enhance the Clutch story as part of
the United Talent Agency. And you know as well, the
(30:48):
opportunity which I don't mind sharing on this call, on
this discussion of us working together, but but generally, what
was what was the motivation for you? And in u
t A, Well, it was a couple of things. For me,
I kind of foresaw what the business was going. And
although I was and we were at Klutch, was considered,
you know, the the cool kid on the block, I
(31:11):
never was complacent in that position. And so what I
the athletes is always evolving as the world evolves. And
I had a choice to either I wanted to grow,
and I wanted to grow from a perspective of infrastructure
and expertise. And so it's a couple of ways you're
doing that. One was partnering with someone who already had
(31:34):
that in house. The other was going out and raising
capital and then finding the people to do so. And
when I sat down with Jamie and we had a conversation,
and actually Jim Burkes had a conversation with a partner
of a business associative mind Uh and Paul and Paul
(31:54):
and Jim had a conversation which led to Jammy and
I had the conversation. And when I and my first
sit down, I actually I like Jammie a lot, not
knowing if I was going to go down the road
of doing business with him. I just like the person,
and through the conversation he understood where I was trying
to go. We had some great dialogue and I think,
(32:16):
you know, we got the deal done in probably sixty days.
And it wasn't more so about finance for me than
it was about being able to scale properly and grow
my business properly and being able to, if necessary, represent
the athlete holistically. Every athlete is not going to need
the resources that we now have with this clutch. U
(32:37):
t a partnership, but for the one that does, I
wanted to be prepared and we wanted to be prepared.
And so the having that partnership has been great. It
will continue to be great. I think we're hitting our
stride in a way in which for that client that
needs it one department or two departments or every department great.
(33:01):
And you never know, these things come up. These things
come up, and every everybody is different, and our younger
players are evolving and eventually they don't want to become
entrepreneurs and want to be in executive producing fam and television,
so on and so forth. And then when you came
about it just even added a more of an expertise
(33:21):
to what we do. And this is something that we
don't from like, you know, we're not out there saying, oh,
look what we did, Look what we got. We got
doing that. If you're inside the end phone, then you're
able to take advantage and be so far ahead of
your peers in my opinion, because of this expertise and
it's abundance and endless part of resources that you have.
(33:47):
And I think one thing that people don't understand, and
especially from an athlete perspective, and this is what's really
tricky in my In my world, athletes have to lead
with ego. But that ego drives a competitive nature, which
is great for your sport on the field, on the court,
(34:08):
right in business is not so great. And so you
have to understand how to balance that and then pulled
that ego cape off and put on more of a
business minded cape to really value the people within the
walls of the business. I've counseled people my whole career
(34:31):
that the the successful people that I know in every
walk of life have an ego and people have to
A person's got an ego, I go, I'm not I'm
kind of not interested in people who don't have an ego.
What I've always tried to counsel people. You talked about
it in terms of an ego cape. I love that.
I've always said it, if you don't have an ego,
(34:54):
you never get into the room. But once you get
into the room, you got leave your ego outside, because
it's your ego that gets you there. But if you
let your ego then get in the way of what
you accomplish or try to accomplish in the proverbial room,
whatever that means. Your room, maybe the court. It may
be in front of a camera, it may be behind
(35:17):
a camera. It maybe noodling on on on representation. From
an agent perspective, it's any of those things. You don't
get successful without an ego. But again, the people who
know how to check that ego once they've gotten to
the room, that's the people who win all the time
on the court, behind the you know, think about it
(35:40):
just in the in the in sport. If if if
it's all about me, all about my ego, all about
my taking that shot, that you're never going to be
as successful as the person who has a collaborative approach
and the egos put aside in the effort to win right,
because you are in control of what's to be. You know,
(36:04):
if this was Apple right and you were and you
were a colder, well that's different. But you are in
control of the sport because it's me that's on the
court and I'm scoring thirty or on the field, I'm
throwing touchdowns and running for touchdowns. And so what that
causes you to do is it causes you to buy.
(36:26):
You push all your chips in on that ability. And
what it causes the people around you to do is
say it's say, okay, all we need is actually this
person because they're doing the actual act right there. They're
scoring the touchdown or they're they're they're making the basket,
(36:48):
but they're forgetting one thing. Once you come off that field,
there's a different business practice that an expertise that you
have to have within and that takes a different thought process.
And just because you're able to get that person on
the phone every day or tell this person where to be,
(37:09):
don't mean you have the capabilities to actually do the
job necessary going forward to build the business. And that's
where in my world people running into a very very
big problem. So so so rich I want to I
want to kind of, you know, wrap on on one
topic here. UM. I know, recently, in partnership with the
(37:31):
et you you produced you know, an original documentary I
think it was called the Clutch Academy. UM, talk a
little bit about the Clutch Academy and and and the
purpose of that, because look, we're in we're in a
world right now, we're just about every conversation that we
both have involved content, and we talk about content and commerce.
(37:56):
We talk about content and culture, we talk about content
and community. You got into the content business, and you
obviously in sports representation, you're in the content business because
the talent that we represent, that you represent, they're creating content.
Content maybe on the court, that may be behind the
camera all the same. But what what was the motivation
(38:18):
on the Clutch Academy and and as it achieved what
you wanted through the utilization of content. I just I
just wanted to allow it like a sneak peek into
what we actually do. You know, you get into a
lot of these rooms and you know, again the competition
they just tell lies, you know, and so content is king.
You know, content is the new market. I tell families
(38:40):
that all the time, like you know, you know brands,
they think different today and they thought twenty years ago,
ten years ago for that matter, and so I would
submit it's ten weeks ago. It's changing on a on
a pretty dynamic basis. I wanted to do a number
of things right. It was pretty layer in my decision
behind it. Number want to give the kids a platform
(39:01):
to allow people to understand who they are, not just
as ball players, but as people. I think nowadays, you know,
you want to get into having an understanding of who
that person is, why they do what they do, why
they think the way they think, what's important to them,
and so on and so forth. So that was me
and us as a company providing them a platform Number one.
(39:23):
Number two give a little inside of who we are
as a company, how we think, how we differentiate from
the so called competitors out there, and what's important to us.
And I think people were able. If you actually watched it,
you were able to see that, you know what this
group really cares. This is not just TV, this is
(39:45):
this is real, This is genuine, this is authentic. You
saw them there that I don't hold no punches. I
hope myself accountable. I hope my team accountable, and we
hold the the the client accountable because you can't walk
on X shels in this business, you know which most
agents does. Most agents, you know, the client wants you
(40:06):
to run and jump over a boy wire offense. Okay,
how fast we want to do it. It's just, you know,
like that you see in the movies, that's not who
I am, that's not what we represent um And so
I wanted to kind of showcase that. And I also
wanted to allow the younger people, male, female, whatever, who
no matter what color you are, who aspired to be
in this space to have a little bit of understanding
(40:29):
direction on what it actually is really about. And I've
gotten phone calls from young men that are now agents
that are competing, you know, or not competing but recruiting
against us in the in the marketplace and whatnot. And
you know what, and they said, man, we really appreciate it.
You helped us so much. And that's really what it's about.
(40:50):
You know, we can't represent every player. That's not gonna happen.
You only represent those allow you to represent them, which
is great. But we accomplished what we wanted to accomplish.
I didn't I wanted it to be tasteful. I didn't
want it to be a reality like type drama type
of thing because that's not what I'm about. And so
it was a lot of hard work. It was a
(41:11):
roller closure of emotions, but it was fun to do
UM and and the families. I was glad to do
it for the families. I enjoy it. And you know,
we're launching Clutch Originals, which we are going into the
content space. We're going to produce our own content, original
content UM as well as aligned with you know, some
some different UM writers and things like that and by
(41:33):
projects and so on and so forth. And so what
I'm looking at and what I wanted to create holistically
was a branded house, you know, not a house of brands.
And so I think we have the ability to do so.
We got a great team UM and so we're still
a very young company. It's only we's only we've only
(41:55):
been here for ten years, which is very young. And uh,
We'll continue to to challenge ourselves to get better and
do better and continue to surround ourselves with people such
as yourself, Michael, who are o g s in the
game so to speak, and have been around for a
long time and kind of understand the dudes and don'ts
and lean on you when when we have to and
(42:15):
when we need to to to better our education in
the space because we don't know everything. You know, I
tell people all the time, I don't know everything. I
don't pretend to know everything. But guess what I do know.
I know I can pick up somebody who's willing to
answer my phone call that does know what I don't know.
And that's the power right there. That's it. And and
and rich you know, the idea of using Clutch Academy
(42:36):
as a as a as a way for people to
get insight into what you've done and how you do
it and how Clutch operates and your motivation. I want
to thank you profusely for giving this audience that same
opportunity to understand not only where you came from, but
where you are and where you're going. No, thank you,
(42:58):
thanks for having me on it. I'm Michael Casson. Thanks
for listening to Good Company. Good Company is a production
of I Heart Radio. A special thanks to Lena Peterson,
chief brand Officer and Managing director of Media Link for
her vision on Good Company, and to Jen Seely, Vice
president Marketing Communications of media link for programming, amazing talent
(43:19):
and contentm
Good Company is a production of I Heart Radio. I
couldn't be in a better place, in a better position,
extremely happy for what we've been able to build. We're
growing faster than than a newborn baby, for sure. Hi,
I'm Michael Casson. Welcome to Good Company, where I'll explore
(00:21):
how marketing, media, entertainment and tech are intersecting, transforming our
lives and the way we do business at a breakneck speed.
I'll be joined by some of the greatest business minds
and strongest leaders who will share how they build companies
from the ground up or transform them from the inside out.
My bed is you'll pick up a lesson or two
along the way. It's all good. It's really a great
(00:43):
pleasure to welcome Rich Paul to Good Company. Rich is
the CEO and founder of Clutch Sports. Doesn't need too
much of an introduction, as Clutch Sports and Rich Paul
have become synonymous with leadership in sports in the agency
side of the business US and the exciting part for me,
of course, is when Media Link joined forces with the
(01:06):
United Talent Agency at the end of One of the
great benefits of that was the ability to call Rich
Paul my partner and my friend, so rich, welcome, thank you,
thank you for the kind words, and uh, I appreciate
you allowed me to get on and have this conversation.
Is pretty much just a typical dinner nite for us,
but we'll do it at at tend There you go,
(01:28):
so rich your story, and you know, I had the
pleasure of hearing it directly from you, and I know
our audience will will love to hear your story. But
can you just kind of give us a little bit
of a picture of how you got started? And you know,
it's a funny thing to say how you climb the ranks,
because I think you traversed them in a way that
it's kind of never been done. You kind of went
(01:50):
in auto terms from zero to sixty and about two seconds,
putting yourself right in the center of the action in sports.
But I loved it. Just talk about kind of where
you got started. And as my friend Jeffrey Katzenberg once said,
when he asked somebody who's a singer, when he wants
to know their motivation, he says to them, who was
(02:10):
the artist and what was the song? So I would
say to you, you know, who was it and what
was it that that kind of catapulted you. I think
my dad was my biggest motivation. You know, my story
is a story of faith, it really is, and passion too,
But my dad was probably my biggest motivation. And I
think my environment was my my biggest push. You know,
(02:35):
I come from a place in which we have very
few outlets, have very few options, there's zero infrastructure. The
education that you are able to obtain through public resources
is very what I would say, basic basic education. And
(02:56):
so you know, as a kid, I looked around, I
saw things at a very early age I probably shouldn't have.
I heard things I probably shouldn't have. But also the
bright side of that was the world that I live
in today. I know that it's not necessarily everyday life
for every one, and so it allows me to have
(03:19):
a great balance, allows me to actually appreciate the position
that I'm in and some of the things I've been
able to do along with my team over over the
course of the past ten years. And the grind. It
really allows you to appreciate the grind. Nothing was given,
everything was earned and will continue to be and as
(03:39):
it pertains to the to the clients that we are
able to represent, it allows you to have this relatability
and understanding of each other as people first, not being
seen as just a transaction or a fee. We've been
able to build the business on the foundation of that integrity,
and so I couldn't be in a better place and
a better position, Extremely happy for what we've been able
(04:02):
to build. We're growing faster than than a newborn baby,
for sure, and it's a lot of fun. It's a
lot of fun, well rich. It's interesting. You know. I'd
tell people, and this might surprise you, but I tell
people that my parents did me a great service and
they did me a disservice. The great service was I
grew up early. I grew up fast. I had two
(04:24):
older sisters, and so whether it was social or other
aspects of life, I was exposed to a lot as
the youngest and the only child, the only boy. And
you know with with older sisters, you tend to grow
up a little faster. It just you know, you're part
of the equation in a different way from me. And
I've always said, I don't know that I had a
(04:44):
proper childhood. I didn't have an improper childhood, but again,
I was exposed to things that were probably beyond my years.
You know, when movies start started putting ratings on them. Um,
you know, you couldn't see a PG thirteen or are
or what have you. My family didn't have that filter
of PG thirteen. Yeah, no, And it's it's really interesting,
(05:07):
but I think it contributed a lot to you know,
whatever monicum amount of success I've been able to achieve.
And similar to you, those things are motivators and you know,
again are are growing up experiences were likely you know,
different but but similar in that way that on the
one hand, it made me, it made me a better person.
(05:28):
On the other hand, I kind of felt like some
of the some of the childhood stuff escaped me. So
it's interesting that that, you know, we hadn't had that
conversation before. It can be a sword and a shield
when you have that exposure too early, what you know,
the idea of too much too soon can really you know,
screw up a lot of people. In your case, it
(05:49):
obviously acted as a as a projectile, and in my
case it did too because I just felt like I
was already there. I was already older. I already needed
to become ridding myself as an older person because I
felt older. That's I mean, yeah, that aligned directly with
how I grew up. It was a se sauce sort
of speaking with the good and the bad. But what emotion? Emotion?
(06:13):
I think it's necessary as well. I think I wouldn't
change I wouldn't change anything. Rich Let me go back
to that question though, what was the singer and what
was the song? You know, who was the artist and
what was the song? What made you realize that that
you know sports and you know representation. I'm sure you
didn't think about it in that context at that moment,
(06:34):
but what was that moment? And I know you've told
me a story about a jersey. I'd love you to
share that story. Yeah, I think the I think the
artists from a figure to perspective was probably just Um
warm Moon as a sports figure. You know, that jersey met.
My understanding of who warm Moon was and being a
(06:57):
fan of his led me to purchasing his jersey, and
that jersey got the attention at that time in that moment,
a young man happened to be uh Lebron James. But
you know, I think again the song was was just
it wasn't a specific song, it was just entrepreneurial spirit.
(07:21):
You know I had that as a kid, I had that.
I don't know. I guess my dad would probably say
I might have been two or three years of age. Um.
And I was always very aware of my surroundings and
able to understand the detail and in the different characters
(07:42):
of people, you know, because I was able to see
characters every day all day, you know, because my dad
on the corner store and you're in the corner in
the neighborhood. There's all type of characters that come, male, female, kids, adults,
It don't matter. And so you know, one day I
took a bus trip and it was my friend's mom
(08:04):
was throwing a bus trip and I was really at
his house to visit him. And when she explained to
me they were having this bush trip, I was being
I was really being supportive, and I said, you know,
I'll pay for four four people to go. Gave her
the money and I didn't think twice about it. So
about three weeks later, it was in the wee hours
(08:27):
the morning, I get this call and it's my friend's
mom and I'm like hello, She's like, um, you know, basically,
where you guys at. I'm like, who is you guys?
You know? What are you talking about? She's like, we're
at the At that time, it was it was Tops
and Tops was a grocery store chain in Ohio. It
was it's sort of like Rouse here, and they would
(08:50):
park the cars there for the bus to meet him. Indeed,
you would go. And I was like, um, well what
do you What are you asking me to do? And
she was like, we're waiting on you. We can't leave.
Were waiting on you. So I was like, I didn't
really want to go. I was paying for someone else
to go. And she was like, well, we're here. And
I was with a friend of mine and he was like, well, man,
we might as well just go. And so we went
(09:12):
and we're only men, the only men on this bus.
And we go to New York City and we get
off on Canal Street and they were going to bargain shop,
which all understand, but I wasn't a bargain shopper. And
so we got in the cab and we went over
to Fifth Avenue and did some shopping and whatnot. And
then the last stop I made was an NBA store
(09:35):
and I was going to get a jersey I had
been wanting for a while because I was known to like, say, sneakers.
So I would have sneakers for like six months and
we're wearing It's a weird thing I would do before
this whole sneaker thing went crazy. But but nevertheless, I
was there and I was in line. I had the
jersey I wanted and it was actually the Trails Freewell Nicks.
(09:57):
I wanted to go with these bow Jackson I had
had for And at the corner of my eye, I
saw this little area and it was and I was
asked to guys, said what is that over there? He said,
that's our new hardwood classics, and I said hardwood classics.
So they had an Elgin Baylor Lakers, a Bill Russell Celtics,
and they had an Oscar Robberson Bucks. I bought two
(10:19):
to three Celtics, I mean Bucks and Lakers and got
to the register and I didn't even look at the
price of the of these jerseys. So when I got
to the register, my balance jumped off. It jumped all
the way up, and I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, what
the hell the day he goes? Hey, man, each one
of these is like three So I was like, So
(10:42):
I was like, okay, So I bought him, and I'm
mosy on we get back because the bus is going
back that day. It's not like you're spending night and
check into a hotel. So hot back on and we
get back. And in Cleveland, Thursday through Sundays the biggest
club nights. And so I wear these two jerseys to
the club different nights. And I just got this crazy
response Michael, and I'm like, hmm, so that Sunday is
(11:05):
our biggest night. And I might have got home in
like five in the morning. And I bought my first
home when I was nineteen years old, so where yeah,
And I had this little makeshift, makeshift office because I
was trying to put myself through college. I was going
like two days out of the week. And I stayed
up all night thinking about this jersey response I was getting,
(11:30):
and I googled. It wasn't even Google you, I don't
think I put in the A. O. L. Hardwood Classics.
First thing that came on the search was this story
in Atlanta called Distant Replays. And when I went on
their site, they had all these different jerseys and that
caused me to stay up till nine in the morning.
And I was the first person to call this story
(11:51):
and the guy answers and I get to talk to
him about jerseys on the side and said, well, we
don't have this where we have this one blah blah blah.
And over time I developed a relationship with this with
this guy, and I would buy jersey from me every
week and I would ram to the club and I
would get the same response. I did this for for
two months straight, and finally, after the two months. His
(12:13):
name was Andy Hyman. I asked Andy. I said, Andy,
do you think it's possible that I can invest in
your business? And he said, if you're serious, fly down
to Atlanta and see me. Well, I had one major problem.
I had never flown before because we would drive everywhere,
you know, for for sports and things like that. We
(12:34):
would always dry And so a friend of mine said
to me, I told him about this conversation I had.
He said, you know what, my high school classmates, they
all go to clark in More house. They live in Atlanta.
So I booked the flight. You just pay me the
money back and we can stay at my friend's house
in Marietta. You go to your meeting, we'll hang out
and come on back. So that's what we did. I
(12:56):
didn't know he was gonna book this flight out of
akron Kent Airport. I thought he would book it out
of Cleveland. You know, Hopkins, you got Delta and goes
right there. He was trying to save money on the
purchase of the ticket. But we have to go forty
five minutes to Act from Canton and come back forty
five minutes. So time is money, it's what It's the
way I would think. Luckily, that's not how he was thinking.
(13:19):
And so through my travels, one day I'm at the
gate and these kids are I see these tall kids,
and they're like looking at me. I'm looking at them
and I don't know what they want, you know. And
and then one of them asked me, like, hey man,
what kind of jerseys that you have? Bre And I
go into explaining and we get on the plane and
get the baggage claim. Here they come again. And so
(13:41):
I gave him my business card and I said, listen,
go to this store. If you have any problems. If
I'm not there, have him called me. You can use
my discount. Sure enough, and he calls me. But I'm
back in Cleveland. And when he calls me, and he goes,
there's some kids in here. They're shopping and dropping your name.
I said, what they buying and say buying one? Jursey
(14:02):
said which one? Because we always wanted to know what
someone was buying Magic Johnson Lakers. I said, okay, so yeah,
they can use my discount. By the way, Rich, Rich,
you understood then how important data was. Okay, you you
were trying to you were you were getting the data,
so you were ahead, you were prescuted, you were ahead
of the curve. You understood that data was gonna be
(14:23):
predictive for your business. So that's a that's an important
message to the audience. Trust me. Yeah, And without knowing
data back then, I guess. So I guess you're right,
and that kid end up being Lebron James. Out of nowhere.
That's good data. That's good literally out of nowhere. And
so that started the relationship. But then, you know, I
(14:43):
was always a kid into sports and into fashion and
into culture, and that's what I was known for my neighborhood.
I was known for being very fashion forward, like in
I think I got pictures of this definitely in seven,
you know, wearing DC and why my jeans were a
(15:04):
little slimmer and everyone else's. And I remember having like
a Versace shirt, you know VERSACEI he didn't think it
made and it was tight at a moment where guys
were there, but you know, it was me, So people
didn't really make fun of me. They wanted to more so. No,
what that was, and that was like my my thing
growing up. It really was. Well, you haven't lost that.
(15:27):
You're still a fashion east. I'll tell you you got
some stuff. You've got some style going on. No one
gets put clothes on here, so I just wear hoodie. Yeah, Rich,
you know, you you broke a milestone, not recently, but
some time ago with you know, a nice round number
(15:49):
of representation and contracts and and you know clients generating
you know, in excess of a billion dollars in contract value.
Probably you know, I've seen numbers anywhere from a billion
to two billion dollars in contract value on behalf of
some of the boldest face names in sport. Let's be clear.
(16:11):
I mean, whether it's Lebron or Anthony Davis or you know,
go down the list. There's there's the envy of all.
But I think the part of your story that is
so interesting, not many people. And I'll tell you again,
maybe this is a similarity in our backgrounds would put
me in the media business. Was actually rewriting a law.
(16:33):
As crazy as that sounds, I represented a client when
I was a lawyer rich and that client got into
a bankruptcy circumstance and I was a tax lawyer, but
I helped change a law. I went to Washington on
behalf of a client back in and actually wrote a law.
But I actually wrote a sentence that is still on
the books of the United States Bankruptcy Code because it
(16:55):
was around fairness in a in a particular provision. And
a senator from Ohio, uh, Howard met Zimbaum, who was
your senator, turned out to be an extraordinarily close friend
of mine and changed the course of my career. And
I mean that genuinely great respect and affection for Howard
met Zimbaum. And that name is it's just crazy that
(17:18):
you say that, because Metsinbaum for me growing up, was
a place that they took kids that were didn't have parents.
Yeah really, I'm sure. I'm sure named after his family. Yeah,
so so that's that's a funny, separate story. But the
senator from Ohio changed my career, and I probably wouldn't
(17:40):
be in the media business if it wasn't for Howard
met Zimbaum in a funny kind of crazy way. But um,
you know, I get to write a law. They wrote
a law for you, the so called Rich Paul rule.
I'd love you to give some some some background on
that and and you know what led to that, and
you know, and and its hats off to you for
(18:01):
getting people to pay attention to what probably was a
law that needed to be rewritten or a rule that
needed to be changed. Yeah. Look, I think for many
years that there has always been a monopoly uh in
the industry of sports and representation just in general, and
you can say probably in in representation in the Hollywood
(18:23):
space as well. And the biggest thing was they weren't
used to the black face, um, especially an unapologetic black face.
UM A young you know, do things my way. I'm
going to add fashion forward, um you know, um, not
(18:48):
afraid of conflict, not playing the the game of you know,
lie to your client while doing lunch with the owner
type of face. They weren't used to that. And the
barriers that were placed and the challenges that were placed
was from a collective. You know, it wasn't just a
CIA that were trying to make it hard for me
(19:10):
when I decided to start Clutch. It was everybody involved,
all the competitors involved, whether they were you know, given
information to media outlets or trying to drive a wadge
amongst clients and things like that through false information. And
so when the Rich Paul rule came about that restriction
(19:34):
number one, it made absolutely no sense because you know,
any in the representation business, the best agents are more,
you know, they learned more from the hands on experience,
and they can never learn from having a degree, right, Like,
what is the degree going to do for you in
this space? And so I felt like what they knew
(19:56):
was there was less people of color to even have degrees,
because an education is something that it's not the first
thing you think about when you're trying to survive in
everyday life. And I knew that my ribs is touching
because of hunger. How the hell I'm gonna think about
opening this book to understand the opt to triangle or
(20:18):
the A word problem, or if I have to write
this paper in the m l A format, I can
give a ship that's about that. When I got my
siblings here that that's hungry, you know, And so I
was really disturbed by it. And you know, they make
up these rules and they create these narratives in this
(20:39):
perception um based upon how they view you. So we know,
higher education wasn't something that people of color was going
to be able to obtain in abundance. So therefore, all
of a sudden, you gotta be or were You're supposed
to be a lawyer. To be able to be an agent,
you had to have a law degree. That's what it
(20:59):
would said to be. So now if you are someone
of color and you do have a law degree, then
you're accepted because that's going to be a small it's
still gonna be a small group of people. When I
came along, it became a thing where you don't want
to be with somebody that listens to your type of music,
or that doesn't wear a suit, or that goes to
the club with you. Those are all things that I
(21:22):
actually did. And so when the competition would be in
the rooms, they would say, knowing that they probably meet
with me next or met with me prior, not to
do these things. And it became a thing to where
you know, you want to be with us because we're
in this space. Well, it's funny how today is every
(21:44):
chance they get to hire the young, cool black guy,
they do it and they'll pay them double triple because
they think that's all Rich Paul is. And so we
just got to duplicate that, which is pretty adya to
think about that, But that's your where it is now.
It used to be we wanted to you had to
have the qualifications. Now you just gotta have the cool.
(22:08):
My thing is great. So the Rich Paul rule, they
bring that with trying to light on it, and it
goes away because they knew that was not right. They
knew that that was just something that I that I
felt like they put these stipulations in these restrictions and
regulations about what right that not in this because this
(22:28):
is the one business that we're in that that actually
don't apply. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not for
anyone just jumping into being a representation business because it's
a big business. You are advising young men and women
at the highest level. You're doing contracts the highest level,
so the capabilities have to be there, but you don't
(22:52):
necessarily have to have capabilities with the degree capabilities could
just be capabilities, right. You know it wasn't you or me.
It was Mark McCormick who wrote a great book called
What You Don't Learn at Harvard Business School, and you
are the personification of that. But but my journey came
through experience. Like people don't understand my dad. I worked
(23:14):
in my dad's store since I was like six years
of age. Right there, you learn customer service. Where in
the service business you learn that, you know, whether it's
you learn marketing. I was there when the friedolay Man
came in and he's introducing the coup ranch to Rito.
This is so now He's explained to you why we
(23:34):
want to showcase this blue bag when the red bag
has been selling for the loan. You know, Richard's so interesting.
When I was in um High school, maybe I was
a freshman in college, I knew that I was going
to be I knew I was going to go to
law school. At that point, I also knew that I
didn't want to practice law forever. I knew that for
me it was a means to an end. But I
(23:56):
knew I wanted to go to law school. And I
said to my dad, add, can you call your lawyer
and see if I can get a job working in
a law firm, you know, as an not I wasn't
ready to be an intern, but you know, as a
gopher as in the mail whatever, you know, just to
be around a law firm. And my dad called his
lawyer and said the lawyer's name was Max. I'll never forget,
and he said, Max Michael would like to have a
(24:17):
job working in a law firm because he wants to
go to law school ultimately. And Max's advice to my
dad was not what he should do. Let him go,
park cars, let him go. We'll learn how to deal
with people. He can. He's got plenty of time to
be an intern and a law clerk and all of
that right now. The best thing he could do is
go learn how to deal with people. And interestingly enough,
(24:39):
the job I took that summer instead of working in
a law firm was a camp counselor. And for me,
I learned through the lens of kids. You know, I
was I was as a kid, I was a pretty
good baseball player. So sports and baseball and whatnot we're
really important to me, and particularly baseball as a kid.
And so I said, you know what, this is the
(25:00):
way I can give back. Even as a young person,
I gave back to the community. I literally found a
team at a little league that didn't have a parent
able to manage it, and I became a manager of
a little league team. I didn't have a kid. I
was in you know, I was senior in high school
or maybe a freshman in college. That was the road
I took because I said, I took that advice and
(25:20):
I said, I'm going to learn more by working with people,
and you know, being a salesman in a men's clothing
store and being a camp counselor and doing jobs like that.
Just so it's so interesting to have a master's in
denning with people from top to bottom, from the worst
to the to the to the most. You know, qualify,
you've got a PhD. You got more than a master's.
(25:41):
And so you know, I think that I tell this
all the time because you know, by us and when
I say us, you know what I've been able to accomplish,
what Mavericks been able to accomplish. Obviously, um, you know
Lebron being on the court, and you know, people kind
of lump us all together. Sometimes that's our start. We
started together and and obviously Randy as well. But they
(26:06):
look at it and say, okay, well he did that,
we should be able to do it. I said, well,
wait a minute. In order for you to be me
and your twenty you gotta be willing to be me.
And year one you don't. You don't start here, you
work your way up. And in year one there was
nothing for me to do. I'll never forget the conversation
(26:26):
when I asked, well, what am I own a salary
to do? And I never made more than forty eight
thousand dollars a year, and it was nothing. There's zero
for you to do, And so right in and there
I had to make my way. I worked at Nike
for four years understanding whether it was brand strategy, marketing
(26:48):
the athlete, the voice of the athlete, cutting so sneaker.
You know, I can. I can go into any shoot
company and work on their side as well as on
the side for for for my client, and so that
dual threat people. People don't understand the experience and the
capabilities can bind. And I'm not discouraging anyone from I
(27:11):
want people to be encouraged and to be motivated, motivated
to come into this space. But don't come into the
space with an entitlement because you're sibling or because you're
a friend. Come into this space with the understanding that
I'm not gonna get rich overnight. That's not gonna happen.
(27:33):
And I have to know what I don't know. So therefore,
my biggest value to this person that's allowing me to
have an opportunity is to understand and to know what
I don't know. So therefore, if I can identify what
I don't know, then I can go and allocate somebody
that actually does know. And that's a smart decision by me,
(27:55):
for my client or for someone that I'm working alongside everyone,
especially in my space and come from my world. We
have this mentality that we want to do it ourselves
and no one does it. Look at all these people
in this car. It's not just Rich and Michael on
the car, because no one does it by themselves. But
(28:17):
that was the mentor. And it's a trick, right, It's
a trick because what one thing about doing it by yourself?
You know what that does? That makes you devalue infrastructure,
that makes you devalue expertise, and that's not a good thing. Yeah,
Rich it's it's interesting. I grew up with a friend
who the way I described him to somebody once was
(28:39):
this was a guy who was always looking for the
easy way out, and so was I. But what I
learned early was the only way you get to the
easy way out is to work really hard, and then
you can find the easy way out. But it's not
easy to find the easy way out. You got you
gotta work hard to find it. Yeah, And and working
hard comes in several packages. Going back to the rich
(29:00):
Paul Roue, I just think that that was more based
upon trying to discourage someone to continue down the path
that they that they inspired to be. And so discouragement,
I say this all the time, has definitely killed more
people than guns. And we know how many people guns
have killed. But discouragement is just as bad. And so
(29:22):
I don't see here today in my seat to discourage anyone.
I built the business that actually has an open doorpot.
I don't care if you have a degree from Michigan
or if you have a felony. I really don't give
a shit about either one. What I care about is
who you are as a person, your ability to come
in and be willing to learn and listen, and you're
(29:42):
and develop good habits and capabilities and how you fit
within our team well and and and and that's the
great outlook. And I have to add in as a
plug for the Wolverines. I'm glad you chose Michigan because
I think you know this. All three of my kids
went to uh, the University of Michigan. So go Blue.
I'll give you that. But you know where I stand
on a book. I do. I do so rich. You
(30:05):
and I made a similar decision a couple of years apart,
but we made a similar decision to to you know,
partner and and and aligned with United Talent Agency. I
know my motivation. I'm curious what yours was and what
was what was the attraction? And you know it's interesting because,
as I say, we both made a similar decision. Both
(30:27):
had you know, fortunately built successful businesses in their own right.
And you know I'd sold once before, as you know,
but I bought it back with you t A. You know,
you made that decision in what was it that you
saw that would enhance the Clutch story as part of
the United Talent Agency. And you know as well, the
(30:48):
opportunity which I don't mind sharing on this call, on
this discussion of us working together, but but generally, what
was what was the motivation for you? And in u
t A, Well, it was a couple of things. For me,
I kind of foresaw what the business was going. And
although I was and we were at Klutch, was considered,
you know, the the cool kid on the block, I
(31:11):
never was complacent in that position. And so what I
the athletes is always evolving as the world evolves. And
I had a choice to either I wanted to grow,
and I wanted to grow from a perspective of infrastructure
and expertise. And so it's a couple of ways you're
doing that. One was partnering with someone who already had
(31:34):
that in house. The other was going out and raising
capital and then finding the people to do so. And
when I sat down with Jamie and we had a conversation,
and actually Jim Burkes had a conversation with a partner
of a business associative mind Uh and Paul and Paul
(31:54):
and Jim had a conversation which led to Jammy and
I had the conversation. And when I and my first
sit down, I actually I like Jammie a lot, not
knowing if I was going to go down the road
of doing business with him. I just like the person,
and through the conversation he understood where I was trying
to go. We had some great dialogue and I think,
(32:16):
you know, we got the deal done in probably sixty days.
And it wasn't more so about finance for me than
it was about being able to scale properly and grow
my business properly and being able to, if necessary, represent
the athlete holistically. Every athlete is not going to need
the resources that we now have with this clutch. U
(32:37):
t a partnership, but for the one that does, I
wanted to be prepared and we wanted to be prepared.
And so the having that partnership has been great. It
will continue to be great. I think we're hitting our
stride in a way in which for that client that
needs it one department or two departments or every department great.
(33:01):
And you never know, these things come up. These things
come up, and every everybody is different, and our younger
players are evolving and eventually they don't want to become
entrepreneurs and want to be in executive producing fam and television,
so on and so forth. And then when you came
about it just even added a more of an expertise
(33:21):
to what we do. And this is something that we
don't from like, you know, we're not out there saying, oh,
look what we did, Look what we got. We got
doing that. If you're inside the end phone, then you're
able to take advantage and be so far ahead of
your peers in my opinion, because of this expertise and
it's abundance and endless part of resources that you have.
(33:47):
And I think one thing that people don't understand, and
especially from an athlete perspective, and this is what's really
tricky in my In my world, athletes have to lead
with ego. But that ego drives a competitive nature, which
is great for your sport on the field, on the court,
(34:08):
right in business is not so great. And so you
have to understand how to balance that and then pulled
that ego cape off and put on more of a
business minded cape to really value the people within the
walls of the business. I've counseled people my whole career
(34:31):
that the the successful people that I know in every
walk of life have an ego and people have to
A person's got an ego, I go, I'm not I'm
kind of not interested in people who don't have an ego.
What I've always tried to counsel people. You talked about
it in terms of an ego cape. I love that.
I've always said it, if you don't have an ego,
(34:54):
you never get into the room. But once you get
into the room, you got leave your ego outside, because
it's your ego that gets you there. But if you
let your ego then get in the way of what
you accomplish or try to accomplish in the proverbial room,
whatever that means. Your room, maybe the court. It may
be in front of a camera, it may be behind
(35:17):
a camera. It maybe noodling on on on representation. From
an agent perspective, it's any of those things. You don't
get successful without an ego. But again, the people who
know how to check that ego once they've gotten to
the room, that's the people who win all the time
on the court, behind the you know, think about it
(35:40):
just in the in the in sport. If if if
it's all about me, all about my ego, all about
my taking that shot, that you're never going to be
as successful as the person who has a collaborative approach
and the egos put aside in the effort to win right,
because you are in control of what's to be. You know,
(36:04):
if this was Apple right and you were and you
were a colder, well that's different. But you are in
control of the sport because it's me that's on the
court and I'm scoring thirty or on the field, I'm
throwing touchdowns and running for touchdowns. And so what that
causes you to do is it causes you to buy.
(36:26):
You push all your chips in on that ability. And
what it causes the people around you to do is
say it's say, okay, all we need is actually this
person because they're doing the actual act right there. They're
scoring the touchdown or they're they're they're making the basket,
(36:48):
but they're forgetting one thing. Once you come off that field,
there's a different business practice that an expertise that you
have to have within and that takes a different thought process.
And just because you're able to get that person on
the phone every day or tell this person where to be,
(37:09):
don't mean you have the capabilities to actually do the
job necessary going forward to build the business. And that's
where in my world people running into a very very
big problem. So so so rich I want to I
want to kind of, you know, wrap on on one
topic here. UM. I know, recently, in partnership with the
(37:31):
et you you produced you know, an original documentary I
think it was called the Clutch Academy. UM, talk a
little bit about the Clutch Academy and and and the
purpose of that, because look, we're in we're in a
world right now, we're just about every conversation that we
both have involved content, and we talk about content and commerce.
(37:56):
We talk about content and culture, we talk about content
and community. You got into the content business, and you
obviously in sports representation, you're in the content business because
the talent that we represent, that you represent, they're creating content.
Content maybe on the court, that may be behind the
camera all the same. But what what was the motivation
(38:18):
on the Clutch Academy and and as it achieved what
you wanted through the utilization of content. I just I
just wanted to allow it like a sneak peek into
what we actually do. You know, you get into a
lot of these rooms and you know, again the competition
they just tell lies, you know, and so content is king.
You know, content is the new market. I tell families
(38:40):
that all the time, like you know, you know brands,
they think different today and they thought twenty years ago,
ten years ago for that matter, and so I would
submit it's ten weeks ago. It's changing on a on
a pretty dynamic basis. I wanted to do a number
of things right. It was pretty layer in my decision
behind it. Number want to give the kids a platform
(39:01):
to allow people to understand who they are, not just
as ball players, but as people. I think nowadays, you know,
you want to get into having an understanding of who
that person is, why they do what they do, why
they think the way they think, what's important to them,
and so on and so forth. So that was me
and us as a company providing them a platform Number one.
(39:23):
Number two give a little inside of who we are
as a company, how we think, how we differentiate from
the so called competitors out there, and what's important to us.
And I think people were able. If you actually watched it,
you were able to see that, you know what this
group really cares. This is not just TV, this is
(39:45):
this is real, This is genuine, this is authentic. You
saw them there that I don't hold no punches. I
hope myself accountable. I hope my team accountable, and we
hold the the the client accountable because you can't walk
on X shels in this business, you know which most
agents does. Most agents, you know, the client wants you
(40:06):
to run and jump over a boy wire offense. Okay,
how fast we want to do it. It's just, you know,
like that you see in the movies, that's not who
I am, that's not what we represent um And so
I wanted to kind of showcase that. And I also
wanted to allow the younger people, male, female, whatever, who
no matter what color you are, who aspired to be
in this space to have a little bit of understanding
(40:29):
direction on what it actually is really about. And I've
gotten phone calls from young men that are now agents
that are competing, you know, or not competing but recruiting
against us in the in the marketplace and whatnot. And
you know what, and they said, man, we really appreciate it.
You helped us so much. And that's really what it's about.
(40:50):
You know, we can't represent every player. That's not gonna happen.
You only represent those allow you to represent them, which
is great. But we accomplished what we wanted to accomplish.
I didn't I wanted it to be tasteful. I didn't
want it to be a reality like type drama type
of thing because that's not what I'm about. And so
it was a lot of hard work. It was a
(41:11):
roller closure of emotions, but it was fun to do
UM and and the families. I was glad to do
it for the families. I enjoy it. And you know,
we're launching Clutch Originals, which we are going into the
content space. We're going to produce our own content, original
content UM as well as aligned with you know, some
some different UM writers and things like that and by
(41:33):
projects and so on and so forth. And so what
I'm looking at and what I wanted to create holistically
was a branded house, you know, not a house of brands.
And so I think we have the ability to do so.
We got a great team UM and so we're still
a very young company. It's only we's only we've only
(41:55):
been here for ten years, which is very young. And uh,
We'll continue to to challenge ourselves to get better and
do better and continue to surround ourselves with people such
as yourself, Michael, who are o g s in the
game so to speak, and have been around for a
long time and kind of understand the dudes and don'ts
and lean on you when when we have to and
(42:15):
when we need to to to better our education in
the space because we don't know everything. You know, I
tell people all the time, I don't know everything. I
don't pretend to know everything. But guess what I do know.
I know I can pick up somebody who's willing to
answer my phone call that does know what I don't know.
And that's the power right there. That's it. And and
and rich you know, the idea of using Clutch Academy
(42:36):
as a as a as a way for people to
get insight into what you've done and how you do
it and how Clutch operates and your motivation. I want
to thank you profusely for giving this audience that same
opportunity to understand not only where you came from, but
where you are and where you're going. No, thank you,
(42:58):
thanks for having me on it. I'm Michael Casson. Thanks
for listening to Good Company. Good Company is a production
of I Heart Radio. A special thanks to Lena Peterson,
chief brand Officer and Managing director of Media Link for
her vision on Good Company, and to Jen Seely, Vice
president Marketing Communications of media link for programming, amazing talent
(43:19):
and contentm
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