October 14, 2021 • 51 mins
On this episode of Good Friend, Jamie talks with her husband Christopher Guest and his best friend David Nichtern. Christopher and David were born two weeks apart and have been friends since a very early age. They talk about their shared love of music and how their friendship has evolved over the years.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
If there's something native I'm a good friend. Hi, everybody,
it's Jamie Lee Curtis and you're listening to the Good
Friend Podcast, presented to you by I Heart Radio. It's
a podcast about friendship. We talk about everything, We cry,
(00:24):
we laugh, we think about what it really means to
be a good friend. And I have conversations with some
of my best friends, some people I've never met, and
sort of everything in between. So I hope by the
end of it that you have a really good sense
(00:47):
of what friendship means to me and the people that
I consider friends. And I hope you can take those
same ideas into your own friendship groups, and I hope
you enjoy it. I don't know idea on the locative
I'm a good friend. Well, this is a first, really
(01:10):
a first for me in many ways. I'm new at
this podcast game, um, although I'm playing it um imperfectly
and I am happy, very happy to be doing it
because I'm having conversations with people that I love and
(01:31):
that I respect, some strangers and some people I am
married to, which is the current moment. Um. My guests
today are a too, a two fer um. My husband,
Christopher Guest, is there Hello, and his friend and my
(01:55):
friend David Nick turn reading, and we are going to
have a conversation about friendship sort of obviously your guys friendship,
um mostly, and then how the three of us sort
of interact and intersect, and how Dave and I've gone
off in a couple of tangents and come back. Um.
(02:18):
It should be flowy and easygoing. And I'm not trying
to be a hard hitting journalist here and I'm not
gonna go for a gotcha moment. So obviously none of
the people listening to the Good Friend podcast know much
about your friendship, the two of you, um, and why
(02:39):
I would choose to do the two of you together.
So I would love I know a little bit about this,
but I would love to hear from each of you
sort of your first memories of how you met, where
you met, and what your first impressions of each other were.
So I'll start with Dave. UM, I just think it's
(03:01):
better to start with you, David, So tell me tell
us this new group of friends for you a little
bit about how you met Mr Guest and when and
where and you know the sort of time and place
and setting if you would, So as we go, back
through the veils of time, which we have to do. Um.
(03:25):
The origin story is that my mom introduced because his
parents to each other. I actually had not remembered that,
and you know, Dave, we were just talking that Chris's mother,
who died I think four years ago, would have been
a hundred years old just the other day, So I
(03:48):
did not remember that. But that's interesting. And then we
were born two weeks apart, which is also an intriguing fact.
He came first on February five, and two weeks later
I was born in So we've literally had kinship or
friendship or the potential of it since literally the day
(04:10):
of birth. That's a very I don't have anybody else
even near to that kind of you know, parameter. Now
as to when we first met, I think I'm gonna
have to say we first met before even my memory worked,
So you know, I have early memories, but I don't
know if I have going back to like I'm sure
(04:31):
we hung out when we're three months old, but I
don't remember that. But I do remember a lot of
childhood memories. And we we definitely had visits that were
our families coming together, and so we could we hung
out I don't think Dave, that when you're three months
old you're hanging out. I think what's happening is you're
(04:51):
lying on your back, you're poping in a diaper theoretically,
and you you just have a glazed expression. I mean,
can't speak for you. That's what I was enjoying doing well,
But we don't know, we don't know. Looking up to
you because you were the elder I was saying, is
that kid canna stop pooping in his diaper? And star autatomy? Yeah,
(05:15):
and it took this long. Well, I'm glad to be
the facilitator for the post whooping and talk because it's
it's yielded some deep stuff. Mr Guest. What earliest memories
of David and and that experience, if you have them.
(05:36):
The earliest memory we were told as kids, what what
what the beginning was, which is not a real memory.
It's a memory of someone telling you what happened. And
what they told us was that we were in school
together at the age of four, and there was an
(06:00):
apparent incident, not the kind of incident that would be
in the newspapers theoretically, but where you tell me if
I'm wrong, David, you were in the situation. I don't
know if you were being teased and that I came
in to the rescue. Basically, yeah, I think I was
(06:20):
saving my butt kick. Well, that's what I was trying
to say. And you said, you said all right, boys,
you said alright, as the cops in New York say, okay,
shows all right. So the other four year old backed
away in fear. Of course, I don't remember that. I
don't think David remembers that. But we were told that,
(06:43):
and it may or may not be true. Um, I
don't have any memories of much of anything at that time.
I remember the school. The first memory of David as
a person. Uh. Well, it's interesting because I think it
is probably when we started to play music together. We
(07:04):
were about thirteen. I'm guessing that accurate, Dave, roughly, yeah,
but I can go back way further than that, eight maybe,
And your apartment is on Waverley Place. And that the
walls were close enough in the hallway that we could
climb the walls. Do you remember that we put our
(07:24):
feet out and our hands that we could come Well,
it was it was it was something that I could do.
I could go up to the ceiling and then I
would show people and then whether or not you you've
got to the stealing and rang a little bell and
came down. I don't know. I don't know, but I
(07:48):
take your word for it. I mean I remember climbing
the literally climbing the walls so well. The reason the
reason I bring it up is, you know, as Chris said,
and I think it's it's appropriate. You know, what are
memories that were told to you by your parents? You know,
you guys were such good friends, you loved each other
so much. But as Chris just said, the real connective tissue,
(08:10):
the thing that actually has created the relationship that has
carried you through a lot of time. His music, that
that was the first connection. And how like, I know
that's going to sound you know, uh, un sophisticated. But
(08:32):
is it just that you have a guitar, Chris, and
you're and you're playing something and Dave comes over and says,
that's cool. I like that, I can I do this?
Or like I'm curious because it has to start somewhere.
Do you have any memory of how that happened? No? No, um,
I don't. And some of this is feeling like it's
(08:54):
even though David pointed out that we were the families
were seeing each other when we were younger, that the
the lasting memory comes from playing music together. And how
that happened. Uh, I also couldn't say, but I think independently,
and I don't even know how this happened. We both
(09:15):
started listening to a specific kind of music, which was
arcane in the most part. It wasn't rock and roll,
it wasn't regular folk music that was happening. It was
bluegrass music, and that was not very popular ultimately. Um,
(09:38):
but we fell in love with it at about the
same time, and it really was a powerful thing, so
that when we got together and play, that's what we
would typically play. Well. Friendship is born usually out of
some shared thought, idea, feeling, activity. Rare to just sort
of become super tight with somebody without some connection. Um,
(10:03):
do you remember that music, Dave, do you remember anything
specific about that. I was thinking today about friendship because
you sent me the cup that said friends and on it,
and I know that's the motif of your podcast. And
then I started thinking, well, what is friendship and I
came to the same conclusion. It's shared experience. It's like
a joint bank account into which certain experiences go and
(10:26):
and it's true I came up when I was thinking
about Chris. There was so many musical moments along the way,
and it was we shared this esoteric interest in bluegrass music,
which was, you know, not the common thing in New
York City at the time, although there was a kind
of focused cloister of people who are into it. And
(10:47):
so I don't have that many friends throughout my life
who even know who Bill Monroe is. For example, you know,
and not only do we know who Bill Monroe is,
but we know who played banjo with him in nine whatever.
You know, So the specifics of that, and then we
could play that music, we could render that music. So
I have pictures of us when we're fifteen, of me
playing banjo and crisplaying guitar. I have a picture in
(11:09):
my house of that. Maybe you'll send me that picture.
It might be my apartment, so if I get in there,
I will have been if you ever get to go
back to you ever go back to New York City, definitely,
Um well, I think this joint account, this joint bank
account of experiences, of influences, of chemistry that you know,
(11:30):
connects and and grows and pulses. It's really a live thing.
But I love the idea because it also means you
can be out of it's a shared account, but that
doesn't mean you don't go off and have your own
life and the other life. I think that's what's beautiful
about dropping into friendship because certainly so far on the podcast,
(11:54):
you're the longest relationship that I think I will probably
talk to or think about, which is this longevity of
a friendship. But most of the conversations I've already had
have to do with the idea of dropping in and
out of friendship, that it's not this big, just continual
river of incredible depth and connection. That it's the nature
(12:19):
of life that people go off and then they come back,
and then they go off and then they come back.
But music was the connection for you guys, and continues
to be there as so many moments. There's a lot
of through moments. We had a we had a rock
and roll band in college together called Voltaire's Nose what's
the name? And you know, we've done music projects together
(12:42):
and right up to the present day. And I think
I'm looking at your house there and Chris and I
usually sit in your kitchen which is one of the
best sounding rooms there is, and we play until COVID happened.
We would sit there and play mandolin, guitar and and
you know that gave at the certain music projects that
we did together. So yeah, music is a big thread,
(13:03):
I think, and stick is the other one. Probably. Well,
then that gets into the as we were discussing a
week or so ag Dave the the straight man, uh premise,
which is in comedy, at least in comedy teams, there's
a straight man and then there's another. And this isn't
(13:24):
a sexual thing. Let's a it's a someone who sets
up jokes and then there's a person who is ostensibly funny.
But when Dave says stick, Dave is, as I explained
to him just recently, a natural straight man. And that's
a very hard thing to come by, just born straight man.
(13:45):
I had to tell him that he didn't know that.
You don't get a letter from any agents, government agency
saying you're even anointed a straight man. But Dave has
always been a very good straight man. What makes a
good trait man? Mr Guest, Well, Uh, it's very hard.
(14:05):
It's one of the hardest things to do. It's hard
to I think there's a uh selflessness about it. There's
a a sense of what the hell just happened here? Why?
Why is the other person saying that? Why are they laughing?
Maybe some of those things are are part of it. Well,
(14:28):
it's music, right, it's it's it's the way music goes,
where someone plays one part of the music and then
there's another part of the music. I mean it is.
It's a it's a relationship a straight man and a sticker,
somebody who does the comedy. You can't have one without
the other. It's that's what makes it so good. Well,
(14:50):
I I would in in my work, whatever that is,
I would not think of my I would think of
myself as um sort of in between. But that but
that for whatever that's worth. We'll be right back with
(15:11):
more good friend after this quick break, so stick around.
I want to go back to Voltaire's Nose for a minute.
John Carpenter when I knew him, when we first met,
(15:33):
and he was just thirty, and he and Tommy Wallace
and Nick Castle. Nick Castle was the guy behind the mask.
Tommy Wallace was the production designer and I think also
did props on the original Halloween movie which was made
for you know, three thousand dollars and twenty days or
(15:56):
seventeen days actually, Um, they had to and and their
original band was the Coupe Devills and they were a
garage rock and roll band and and sort of did
covers and I think they probably had some original music.
Did Voltaire's nos? Did you guys do covers or did
you do your own stuff? Did mostly cover? I can't
(16:20):
remember what the original stuff would have been. It was parties.
I know there were some fraternity parties of Columbia kind
of parties where it was it's a challenging thing. It's
mainly young kids drinking. And we were probably how old
twenty dave I would go if that if and I
(16:43):
graduated from Columbia when I was christ so might have
even been like eighteen or nineteen, could could have been younger. Um,
isn't that crazy to just say those numbers and you
know eighteen and nineteen year olds today and you're like,
oh my god, like you just said it. It was yeah,
and we played some outside things. I don't remember how
(17:05):
those were secured, those uh gigs, but it was an
electric band. But I don't remember that what the original
songs would have been. I remember one song I Don't
Want a part Time Woman. I don't know how the
hell I remember that, and I don't know why I
would be thinking that at either, but I'm pretty sure
that was the name of an original song we did. Wow,
(17:27):
I would love to hear that. Yeah, it's that early
thing of going through different things. For for musicians, you're
also going through the guitar thing, the actual what guitar
are you playing? Thing, and that's a very big thing
through people's lives. It sounds like kind of just a
materialistic thing, but it's when you're young and you see
(17:51):
players that you like here, players that you like, you
clock what instruments they're playing. It's a very powerful thing.
So for me, Mike Bloomfield was playing a less Paul
guitar for the most part, and B. B. King was
(18:12):
playing a three thirty five, and you wanted to emulate that.
I did, as if that was going to be some
kind of magic thing. Dave and I um Dave had
a black guitar, maybe a three fifties it Gibson right,
and I had a three thirty five. We both had
(18:35):
Martin d and that all becomes part of the same thing.
You know of who's playing, what what the sound of
something is. And yeah, it's it's part of that. Well,
it's a language from from my standpoint when I look
at particularly men in relationship. You know, women just by
(18:57):
nature sort of talk more out things as they kind
of first couple up and start exploring young life, young
creative lives. Um. And I'm not saying that women musicians
aren't going to have the similar thing. But you guys
are musicians, and that is in itself a language, and
(19:18):
I have been privy to it in our as you said,
the studio in our home, just the acoustics in the kitchen.
But I've never not seeing you guys play music. There's
just never been a time where the two of you
are in a room not playing music. I've also gone
to bed listening to you guys talk. Um. Your long friendship, David,
(19:44):
for the uninitiated, is a lifelong Buddhist. Um. I mean
since you were in your teens. Yeah twenty okay, I was, Hey,
I pulled twenty out of my ass. Look at that. Um.
You know, you've been dedicated to a very specific path
(20:05):
and teaching, and you are a teacher, you are a student.
It has been a very very big part of your life.
And Christopher has obviously been a musician, but he's also
gone off and and made movies and done many other
(20:29):
activities most people don't know his His most current passionate
really is the intricate tying of these little flies for
fly fishing, which he spends and practices really in the
execution of them. He spends quite long amount of time
(20:52):
daily in that practice. But both of you have dedicated
your lives to a practice of something. You both play music.
Christopher practices his instruments on a daily basis. Chris, Yeah,
And that's something that I think the two of you
have shared in your friendships. It's it's the way you
guys play music together is in a way a language
(21:16):
between you two. Um. And when you do improvisational music,
it is the jazz conversation between the two of you.
And one goes off one place and then somebody else,
and then you come back and you join up again,
then you go off. UM. And I was thinking about
that because I've known the two of you and you've
both gone off and done a lot of things. Has
(21:38):
there been times where your focus in this other world
has taken you kind of off and you've had to
find your guys way back because there have been period
of time, David, where I didn't see you as often,
and then there have been times where I've seen a
lot of you. Well, I think, UM, and I don't
know the exact timeline of this, but when David Uh
(22:03):
graduated college, there was a separation. Basically, I don't know
if you moved, if you did you go to Colorado?
Did you go? I know at one point here what
happened was I, you know, I think probably we're still
in contact with both playing around the village, you know,
for a while. And then I went back to music school,
(22:25):
to Berkeley College of Music, and during that year that
was seventy, I met my Buddhist teacher and then I
got very involved with that. UM and and then i'm
you know, you and I were both out in California
different times, but I lived in l a. And then
I was the director of a meditation center in Vermont
for a couple of years. So during that time I
was pretty drawn, also starting my family, and so there
(22:48):
was a gap there. And what actually happened, Chris is
I had a lucid dream with you in it, Uh,
when I came back to Um, I guess I came
back to New York and I just kind of, you know,
had a very strong feeling of connection, and I called
you up and then I came out and during that time,
during those years, Jamie's when Chris and you were getting together.
(23:10):
So then then when I when I came out to
l A that next time, we had a visit and
then I met you, Jamie, and then I think from
then on though, we've been you know, pretty much in
contact for you know, as as every time I come
to Los Angeles, we were hanging out, you know and visiting.
So that would have been how many years ago would
(23:31):
that have been born? Yeah, So you guys have been
together a long time. We've been together thirty six years
because you know what, you had a cake in the freezer,
had your wedding cake in the freezer for years, but
I you shared a piece with me. Yeah, so that's
(23:51):
when that's when I met you, Jamie our many that's
thirty five years ago. Yeah. Well for the listening audience, UM,
I've been married to Mr Guest for all of that time. UM,
and you know, the cake and the freezer thing is
the kind of old fashioned like you get married and
(24:13):
then you take a piece of your cake and then
you freeze it on your first anniversary. I think you
have a bite of it. You know, I did the
throwing the thing. Um, come on, help me out where
you get married? Flowers no flowers in your hand, your
bouquet and my pregnant is that I didn't catch my
(24:36):
own bouquet. My pregnant, unmarried sister caught the bouquet. Um. Yeah,
that's a good line right there. Yeah, that's a good
opening line for a book. Um. But yes, but I'm
you know, we're I I would say we're traditional that way.
And you know this podcast came from a song. David.
(25:00):
Don't know if you got to hear my theme song,
but I will. Uh for everyone else has heard it
because they tuned in and heard it. Um it's called
good Friend by Emily King. Um. I thought I connected
it on the bottom of the email to you. Anyway,
The point is that I just lost the point. Hold on,
I'll find it. It'll come back. Traditional traditional, thank you,
(25:24):
because I think there are traditional mora's in friendships. There
are traditional ideas. And what I've loved about you guys
as friends is that it's fairly non traditional. Like I
say traditional in the kind of classic dude. My experience
of a classic dude friendship, like it's you do you,
(25:47):
You speak musically to each other. It's always amazing when
you see each other. You There's never been a time
where I haven't gone to sleep and woken up three
hours later. You guys are still talking. Some of that.
Some of that, in all fairness, is prerecorded because we're
(26:08):
watching a movie basically, but it sounds better to have
what sounds like a philosophical discussion. So that's playing and
we're in another room watching TV basically, but no, we talk.
We talk a lot, and we still talk a lot,
and we talked on the phone. I'd say it's those
two things. Yeah, And if we could come back to
(26:31):
the straight man thing for just a moment, please. Here's
my interpretation of it, and it's a basketball analogy. If
if we were a basketball team, I would be the
point guard and I'm kind of setting up the play
and Chris is a toll forward. He's cutting to the hoop.
I'm lobbing the ball up in slow motion. It's hovering
(26:52):
above the rim, and he absolutely, without fail black belt
style is gonna leap, catch the ball, turnaround, twist to
a three sixty, and dunk it. Every Well, if seven,
if the hoop is seven ft high, yes, that's that's
what I would be doing. I'm not getting anywhere near there.
(27:12):
If it's it's it's it's too high. Well, that's that's
a very interesting way of putting it. I think it's. Um,
thank you, thanks for the set up, thanks for the past. Well,
and if Chris is on your team, you want him
to shoot, right, Jamie. You know people all over the
(27:33):
world want him to take that shot. I think that Well,
if it's set up, well, I think we want you
to take the shot, Chris. Um. I mean, obviously, the
thing that's always not surprising to me, but is the
beauty of the long relationship we've had is that you know,
Chris can drop me with no warning. So it's the
(27:57):
it's the facility for maybe I'm an easy target. I
mean I am a fairly easy target. Yeah, so you know.
But and but isn't that really a big draw in
a friendship? See? I want in my friendships. I want
to be seen and heard. I want people to know
me well and be able to drop me. Uh to
(28:19):
my knees in in laughter when I don't see it coming.
When I'm you know, the best thing with Chris for
us is that when I'm so mad, I can't be
mad because all Chris has to two is adjust his
face and no matter how angry I am, no matter
(28:40):
what the issue is, I'm I'm done, and it's you.
You can't in in recovery. I heard once that you
can't hate someone and pray for them at the same time.
You know, you can't. It's not possible because one is
turning over feeling about them that they are safe a
(29:03):
little meta prayer, you know, like a little You can't
do a meta prayer and be like really incensed at
somebody at the same time they are counterpurposing and so
in that sense, it's it's anyway. It's been something that
has occurred with my husband and I for a long
long time. Yeah. Um, do you guys introduce each other
(29:24):
to other people? You know? That's another thing in friendships
is that friendship groups grow and spreads. Has that occurred
with you guys? Dave visited us in our country place
and met some of the friends that Jamie and I
have several friends, but I don't think I have met
(29:47):
Um David's friends now other than people that we both
knew from a long time ago. Well, and I thought
of Chris one thing right away, which is there's a
couple of things that we both are pretty tuned into,
and a lot of our conversation revolves around kind of
two poles of how how screwed up things are out
(30:08):
in the world and why and how and how did
it get that way? And also that against that backed up,
there's this almost miraculous onslaught of talented young musicians and
artists and creators UM. And so I just thought when
you said that, I thought right away with Julian Lage,
who Chris made friends with UM and then introduced me
to and we became friends and musical friends too. And
(30:30):
he's also a meditator, so you know, So that is
a shared passion that we have. Is is an amazement
that we have that in the in the darkness of
these dark ages, that there's these young beings emerging with
so much light and so much talent and so much
to give an offer. So I think that's a thread,
there's a theme there. Well, it isn't it. The I mean,
(30:53):
that's the evolution. I mean, we you hope that there
are some bright lights too too, and that if you
can be a conduit. I know you have been involved
at Berkeley. I know Christopher was on their board for
a long long time, and you know, has been very
focused on young people and how to help them because
(31:16):
nobody really understands, like, you go to a music school
like that, but can they teach you the reality of
what the music businesses today, which is, you know, you
don't want to be a dream buster, but it's a
really complicated world. And I know Chris really focused on
that to try to help people and also to connect
(31:37):
them with instruments to be able to have something that
then they get to go off and create there light
as you just refer to it. So I think obviously
there's a you know, that's to me the evolutionary force
of musical friendship, which is what I would call your
(31:57):
guys friendship, which is a musical friendship. But there's this
other pole and Chris can speak to it. But you know,
I I as I know you guys do have a
wide array of friendships and Chris is almost reminds me
of the kind of scholar sage of days gone by.
(32:17):
You know, he's he's studied, he's he's read a lot
about history. Um, he has a perspective that's that's deeper
than the kind of shallow perspective. And he's looking at
current events against that backed up and UM, it's erudite,
and it's you know, it's it's it's some it's somebody
that I listened to, Um, you know, talking about current
events against that backed up. And you know, maybe a
(32:40):
lot of people don't know that about him. I don't
know if they do or they don't. It's it's, Um,
he's a scholar, but it's it's that's part of the
connective tissue to you. Yeah, I'm interested in those things too.
From a slightly different perspective, I wouldn't say I have
to jump in and say I'm not a scholar in
the literal sense. I read a lot, but I'm not
(33:00):
a scholar. There are people who have read a hundred
books about a given time period. I do like to
read about history, um, and be informed about that. Yes.
But what David is saying, obviously is that as a friend,
I mean, it's a podcast called good Friend. The gift
(33:25):
for him is that you're someone with that kind of
scholarly or I mean, but what you do is that
you then distilled the world today and apply what you've
read and learned of why we are where we are.
And I've obviously been married to for a very long time,
(33:45):
and we are as opposite as two people can be
in that way, because I'm somebody who can look at
the big picture and get the picture of it and
can still distill quite a lot. I don't have to
read the fine details to get basically the idea. And
I mean it's an example of our partnership, Chris, because
(34:08):
you you actually get into the weeds of things. Well,
I yes, And I guess David's weeds are in the
work that he does there there. Everyone has their own weeds, hopefully,
because if you don't, then you're just being a superficial person.
(34:32):
So maybe when we talk that's what we end up
talking about the idea of weeds. For me, that's the
most interesting thing, and it took to some people it
would be not of any interest because it's ourcane in
some way. But for me, the more arecane, the more
(34:52):
interesting it is to me. And I think when David
speaks to people about what he does. If he's speaking
two people about meditation who are not meditators, is a
different way of speaking to them than for someone who is.
(35:17):
There has to be a way to bridge that. I
guess if you have some knowledge, you can't just jump
in to the deep end right away, but you have
to find a way as friends to have a common
point which reflects both of both of the things. I
guess something, friend, We'll be right back with more good
(35:44):
friend after this quick break. You know, there's some friendships
that envelope each other where there is no open on
bro there. It's just not there. It's so ameshed, so
(36:06):
without kind of boundaries that you can't almost discern one
from the other and to try to extricate. And what
I love about that as a theme is that in
a way, the three of us have that because there's
a part of our relationship. David um and I have
(36:28):
collaborated on my children's books. David has written music for
my children's books. Um I am not a Buddhist, but
as Dave might say, but I can play one on
TV um I But at the same time, without any
of the knowledge base of Buddhism, without any of the study,
(36:50):
I still do have a practice that is Buddhism light
is some I don't know essence of it because you've
we've talked about it both on your podcasts and talking
about my own practice as a sober woman and how
I've tried to bring some sort of spiritual life, some
(37:13):
feeling to my own life. So that I and that's
that connective tissue because our circles, my husband and I
have that. You know, we we we are a pair
of opposites, and we both can operate in that opposite
sphere very healthfully without we are a matched pair of opposites.
(37:41):
But where we connect our children, our marital life, our
physical life together, sexual as well as physical um in
time and place and location, and a shared love of
of nature, love of small animals shared, you know, there
(38:06):
the connective tissue is strong with us, which has meant
that we can withstand the thirty six year journey together
while both operating and very other big, exciting, creative um
(38:26):
passionate other spheres. And I'm happy, very happy to be
having this conversation because you've known each other a long time.
Chris and I have known each other a long time,
and you and I have known each other a long time,
and that connective little dot in the middle is what
this episode is really about, which is how do you
have that other life but then still come here when
(38:50):
you guys haven't seen each other in a while. It
never feels that there's any sense of having to find
your way back with each other. Of you just picks
up a guitar and starts to play something. The next
thing you know, you're singing harmony. Yeah, can you repeat that? Yes? No,
(39:10):
that's uh. I think that's true. There doesn't feel like
there's a well, now we have to kind of go
over this to re establish whatever this is. No. I
think that in the last year it's been strange for
everyone that everyone's relationships outside of marriages or boyfriend and
(39:34):
girlfriend or girlfriend and girlfriend and boyfriend and boyfriend or
whatever it is, have been tested by this social separation.
H But I've talked to David on the phone on
a fairly regular basis. I mean, there are times where
a month could go by when you don't speak, but
(39:55):
it doesn't feel like, well, who is this again? When
when also like now you don't have sort of the
more physical pursuits that you share David, am I correct,
I'll answer for him, because well, I do. We we have.
(40:16):
Part of the separation is that David has his practice,
his Buddhist practice, his teaching, which I'm not I'm not
a part of. He's talked about it, but I'm not
a part of that. I have a life, a physical life,
whether it's fly fishing or skiing, or hiking or golf.
That is different, and that those those things that we
(40:40):
actually don't share. But we share the other things so well.
And I like to I don't. I don't like friends
who do exactly what I do. I'm not drawn very
much to that usually, So the idea of being able
to add sorb, you know, somebody else's experience. So when
Chris is talked about fly fishing or skiing, um, I'm
(41:04):
very interested in hearing him talk about it because it's
um and and I'm also interested in finding threads to it.
For example, his he talked about his relationship with his
ski instructor, which is almost like a you know, kind
of serious mentoring relationship as I understood it, and it
had principles that were very similar to like studying Buddhism
or something like that. Well, there, and there are connections
(41:26):
with all of this when I've described to you and
to other people as well, But the feeling of being
alone in the wilderness where literally alone, of camping out
by a river in the bottom of a canyon somewhere,
(41:48):
and you're hearing what's what you're hearing. You're hearing different birds,
or you're hearing coyotes at night, or wolves or whatever.
And for me, that is my version of a meditation.
It's obviously not a practice in the way David does it,
(42:09):
but that is a connective tissue that becomes something we
can talk about where it's relatable. I guess well, I
think that is just a really interesting aspect of your friendship.
About your good friendship is that you don't share a
lot of those music, yes, but that these other worlds.
(42:30):
As you said, Dave, Chris knows about things and is
interested in things that you're not, and you he brings
that into your life, and then as you said, you
find a little thread that jives with something that you're doing,
and vice versa with Chris. He doesn't do what you do.
And you're right. It's a lot of people I think
(42:54):
would say that they connect as you did with music,
but that that connection then stay is all the way
through their lives, and as I said before, that they're
they're so ameshed that it's hard to separate them. You
both have very specific pursuits, and I think people listening
probably have that with other relationships in their lives. That
(43:15):
you each bring to each other, that very special thing
where you can lean in because he's telling you something
or he can lean into you, and you know, I
think that's a beautiful aspect of this, certainly as a
as a witness to it. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's a
(43:36):
big world. You can't cover it by yourself. Yeah, you
gotta have friends, but you have to have friends who
also know you all of you. You know, we we
learn about each other and we're friends in certain areas.
But it isn't a complete portrait because or it's to me,
(43:58):
it's an incomplete portrait because are so much about both
of you that you both know from a very young age,
this cellular growth that has occurred so that you can
all both go off and do your separate things. Well, Jamie,
there's another piece of this, which is that I mean,
I'm just jamming with you guys, but there's something about
(44:19):
my relationship with Chris. It's kind of molecular in the
sense that I've known his molecules since he just barely
had them. How are they doing before they dropped? And uh,
I can when every time I look at him, I
superimposed about ten images of him at different ages, fairly
vivid images of him at eight jumping on a basketball
(44:43):
and being able to stand up, and what his face
looked like, of of him playing guitar. I'm sorry, he
can jump on a basketball. You put the basketball on
the floor. I hate to say this, but you know,
and then um, he could just jump on top of
it and most people go, you know, it would be
the Dick Vandyke show. You know, Oh, I you know?
And he he yeah, that's right. And he would invite
(45:03):
other people who lived in his household to try it
and with not good effect, um, including me probably. Let's say, Um,
so Chris was agile, But I can visualize him at
different stages of his life because I've seen him at
different stages of his life. So it's uh. And and
yet the current iteration is always superimposed right on top
of it. So I'm looking at a molecular evolving situation
(45:26):
there that I'm pretty intimate with in terms of the
at least the visual aspect of it. And I don't
have anybody else like that, you know, I go back
to the oldest other friends. I have to go back
to about twenty Wow, I don't know anybody now it's
my sister. That's all the same thing. Yeah, right, And
(45:47):
we're now getting to an age where we're saying by
to a lot of our friends. That is the new
sort of door that we we our generation of post sixties. Um,
death is the new black well. It's also more of
a trap door and a door. Um. Yeah. And uh,
(46:07):
that's true. And Dave and I are are virtually the
same age. Jamie's younger by ten years. Um. But that's
another thing as you look ahead. I just in terms
of describing your mathematical age two people, I've I always
(46:27):
looked at it as a baseball diamond that you know,
you start out as a baby and you're you could say,
you're at bat and if your middle age, you're on
second base. And someone said where are you now to me,
and I said, I'm caught in a run down between
third and home and the catcher has the ball by
the way, So, um, caught and run down by the way.
(46:52):
Is a very good song title. So that's yeah, and
that changes the perspective of friendship to when you're looking
at everything in a in a slightly different way. If
you're in your twenty, early twenties, even early thirties, you're
not looking at things the same way, and this is different,
(47:13):
you know, Jamie. There's one other piece, which is Chris's mom.
H was the closest to my mom energetically in a
lot of ways they had. They're both very active in
the theater world, in the in the entertainment world. They're
both kind of you know, um business entertainment people. I
used to visit Pushy, you know, Chris's mom, because she
(47:35):
lived out here in near East Hampton and I hung
with her. I don't have that many friends from that
generation that I actually hung out with, and it reminded
me of being with my mom, who's long gone. And
so when Pushy left, I thought, there goes that generation.
That there's nobody to verify any of the stories that
he and I are telling about the days before we
(47:57):
remember what was happening. They're gone, nobody verify, and that's
the that's the um Honestly, that's the reason I don't.
It makes me cry to say it. But I don't
ask Chris to participate in my creative life, this being
part of it, because our pannumbra is so rich and
(48:22):
satisfying that I don't need to kind of go out
into that other realm, you know. But I asked you
guys to do this with me today. I don't ask
you both to do things I wouldn't ask normally. Chris
two come on my podcast and talk. But you see,
(48:45):
your relationship, your long friendship, is something I think people
want to hear about because, as Chris just said with
the you know, caught in the rundown, it's such a
reality of all of our lives, um, and we're all
navigating it with grace and some humor I hope, um
(49:07):
and some expansion, but that you guys really do do
and we'll always have this and as you said this,
you've known each other really molecularly, and um, it will
go all the way to when you're not around. And
not that I wanted to have you guys on the podcast.
(49:30):
You guys are gonna be around. It's so nice for
people to be able to listen. But I wanted that
because it's an example, you know this is a podcast
about good friendship, UM, and what that means and how
does that manifest? Do you have any parting thoughts? Mr Guest,
I don't know if I could sum all of this up.
(49:52):
I'm glad we got to talk, and I don't know
if I could sum it all up. That would be
a big task. I think I know that the people
who have been listening to the Good Friend podcast will
identify with their oldest friend, their friend they made when
they were very young. Maybe the parents brought them together,
(50:14):
maybe they found music together or tennis, you know, whatever
it is, and then they have now grown into adult
people and have kind of come back and forth into
each other's lives the way you guys have. And maybe
they're you know, rounding third and heading for home also,
(50:35):
And I should think they should slide That's the only
thing they should slide into. Okay, UM, But I'm grateful
on behalf of the listeners of the Good Friend podcast. UM.
I am grateful that you guys would take some time
to explore this old friends, old good friends, UM, and
I love you both. And Good Friend is produced by
(51:09):
Dylan Fagin and is a production of I Heart Radio.
Our theme song, good Friend, is written, produced, and performed
by Emily King. Unlogative from a Good Friend, Don't Already
(51:34):
From a good Friend. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
If there's something native I'm a good friend. Hi, everybody,
it's Jamie Lee Curtis and you're listening to the Good
Friend Podcast, presented to you by I Heart Radio. It's
a podcast about friendship. We talk about everything, We cry,
(00:24):
we laugh, we think about what it really means to
be a good friend. And I have conversations with some
of my best friends, some people I've never met, and
sort of everything in between. So I hope by the
end of it that you have a really good sense
(00:47):
of what friendship means to me and the people that
I consider friends. And I hope you can take those
same ideas into your own friendship groups, and I hope
you enjoy it. I don't know idea on the locative
I'm a good friend. Well, this is a first, really
(01:10):
a first for me in many ways. I'm new at
this podcast game, um, although I'm playing it um imperfectly
and I am happy, very happy to be doing it
because I'm having conversations with people that I love and
(01:31):
that I respect, some strangers and some people I am
married to, which is the current moment. Um. My guests
today are a too, a two fer um. My husband,
Christopher Guest, is there Hello, and his friend and my
(01:55):
friend David Nick turn reading, and we are going to
have a conversation about friendship sort of obviously your guys friendship,
um mostly, and then how the three of us sort
of interact and intersect, and how Dave and I've gone
off in a couple of tangents and come back. Um.
(02:18):
It should be flowy and easygoing. And I'm not trying
to be a hard hitting journalist here and I'm not
gonna go for a gotcha moment. So obviously none of
the people listening to the Good Friend podcast know much
about your friendship, the two of you, um, and why
(02:39):
I would choose to do the two of you together.
So I would love I know a little bit about this,
but I would love to hear from each of you
sort of your first memories of how you met, where
you met, and what your first impressions of each other were.
So I'll start with Dave. UM, I just think it's
(03:01):
better to start with you, David, So tell me tell
us this new group of friends for you a little
bit about how you met Mr Guest and when and
where and you know the sort of time and place
and setting if you would, So as we go, back
through the veils of time, which we have to do. Um.
(03:25):
The origin story is that my mom introduced because his
parents to each other. I actually had not remembered that,
and you know, Dave, we were just talking that Chris's mother,
who died I think four years ago, would have been
a hundred years old just the other day, So I
(03:48):
did not remember that. But that's interesting. And then we
were born two weeks apart, which is also an intriguing fact.
He came first on February five, and two weeks later
I was born in So we've literally had kinship or
friendship or the potential of it since literally the day
(04:10):
of birth. That's a very I don't have anybody else
even near to that kind of you know, parameter. Now
as to when we first met, I think I'm gonna
have to say we first met before even my memory worked,
So you know, I have early memories, but I don't
know if I have going back to like I'm sure
(04:31):
we hung out when we're three months old, but I
don't remember that. But I do remember a lot of
childhood memories. And we we definitely had visits that were
our families coming together, and so we could we hung
out I don't think Dave, that when you're three months
old you're hanging out. I think what's happening is you're
(04:51):
lying on your back, you're poping in a diaper theoretically,
and you you just have a glazed expression. I mean,
can't speak for you. That's what I was enjoying doing well,
But we don't know, we don't know. Looking up to
you because you were the elder I was saying, is
that kid canna stop pooping in his diaper? And star autatomy? Yeah,
(05:15):
and it took this long. Well, I'm glad to be
the facilitator for the post whooping and talk because it's
it's yielded some deep stuff. Mr Guest. What earliest memories
of David and and that experience, if you have them.
(05:36):
The earliest memory we were told as kids, what what
what the beginning was, which is not a real memory.
It's a memory of someone telling you what happened. And
what they told us was that we were in school
together at the age of four, and there was an
(06:00):
apparent incident, not the kind of incident that would be
in the newspapers theoretically, but where you tell me if
I'm wrong, David, you were in the situation. I don't
know if you were being teased and that I came
in to the rescue. Basically, yeah, I think I was
(06:20):
saving my butt kick. Well, that's what I was trying
to say. And you said, you said all right, boys,
you said alright, as the cops in New York say, okay,
shows all right. So the other four year old backed
away in fear. Of course, I don't remember that. I
don't think David remembers that. But we were told that,
(06:43):
and it may or may not be true. Um, I
don't have any memories of much of anything at that time.
I remember the school. The first memory of David as
a person. Uh. Well, it's interesting because I think it
is probably when we started to play music together. We
(07:04):
were about thirteen. I'm guessing that accurate, Dave, roughly, yeah,
but I can go back way further than that, eight maybe,
And your apartment is on Waverley Place. And that the
walls were close enough in the hallway that we could
climb the walls. Do you remember that we put our
(07:24):
feet out and our hands that we could come Well,
it was it was it was something that I could do.
I could go up to the ceiling and then I
would show people and then whether or not you you've
got to the stealing and rang a little bell and
came down. I don't know. I don't know, but I
(07:48):
take your word for it. I mean I remember climbing
the literally climbing the walls so well. The reason the
reason I bring it up is, you know, as Chris said,
and I think it's it's appropriate. You know, what are
memories that were told to you by your parents? You know,
you guys were such good friends, you loved each other
so much. But as Chris just said, the real connective tissue,
(08:10):
the thing that actually has created the relationship that has
carried you through a lot of time. His music, that
that was the first connection. And how like, I know
that's going to sound you know, uh, un sophisticated. But
(08:32):
is it just that you have a guitar, Chris, and
you're and you're playing something and Dave comes over and says,
that's cool. I like that, I can I do this?
Or like I'm curious because it has to start somewhere.
Do you have any memory of how that happened? No? No, um,
I don't. And some of this is feeling like it's
(08:54):
even though David pointed out that we were the families
were seeing each other when we were younger, that the
the lasting memory comes from playing music together. And how
that happened. Uh, I also couldn't say, but I think independently,
and I don't even know how this happened. We both
(09:15):
started listening to a specific kind of music, which was
arcane in the most part. It wasn't rock and roll,
it wasn't regular folk music that was happening. It was
bluegrass music, and that was not very popular ultimately. Um,
(09:38):
but we fell in love with it at about the
same time, and it really was a powerful thing, so
that when we got together and play, that's what we
would typically play. Well. Friendship is born usually out of
some shared thought, idea, feeling, activity. Rare to just sort
of become super tight with somebody without some connection. Um,
(10:03):
do you remember that music, Dave, do you remember anything
specific about that. I was thinking today about friendship because
you sent me the cup that said friends and on it,
and I know that's the motif of your podcast. And
then I started thinking, well, what is friendship and I
came to the same conclusion. It's shared experience. It's like
a joint bank account into which certain experiences go and
(10:26):
and it's true I came up when I was thinking
about Chris. There was so many musical moments along the way,
and it was we shared this esoteric interest in bluegrass music,
which was, you know, not the common thing in New
York City at the time, although there was a kind
of focused cloister of people who are into it. And
(10:47):
so I don't have that many friends throughout my life
who even know who Bill Monroe is. For example, you know,
and not only do we know who Bill Monroe is,
but we know who played banjo with him in nine whatever.
You know, So the specifics of that, and then we
could play that music, we could render that music. So
I have pictures of us when we're fifteen, of me
playing banjo and crisplaying guitar. I have a picture in
(11:09):
my house of that. Maybe you'll send me that picture.
It might be my apartment, so if I get in there,
I will have been if you ever get to go
back to you ever go back to New York City, definitely,
Um well, I think this joint account, this joint bank
account of experiences, of influences, of chemistry that you know,
(11:30):
connects and and grows and pulses. It's really a live thing.
But I love the idea because it also means you
can be out of it's a shared account, but that
doesn't mean you don't go off and have your own
life and the other life. I think that's what's beautiful
about dropping into friendship because certainly so far on the podcast,
(11:54):
you're the longest relationship that I think I will probably
talk to or think about, which is this longevity of
a friendship. But most of the conversations I've already had
have to do with the idea of dropping in and
out of friendship, that it's not this big, just continual
river of incredible depth and connection. That it's the nature
(12:19):
of life that people go off and then they come back,
and then they go off and then they come back.
But music was the connection for you guys, and continues
to be there as so many moments. There's a lot
of through moments. We had a we had a rock
and roll band in college together called Voltaire's Nose what's
the name? And you know, we've done music projects together
(12:42):
and right up to the present day. And I think
I'm looking at your house there and Chris and I
usually sit in your kitchen which is one of the
best sounding rooms there is, and we play until COVID happened.
We would sit there and play mandolin, guitar and and
you know that gave at the certain music projects that
we did together. So yeah, music is a big thread,
(13:03):
I think, and stick is the other one. Probably. Well,
then that gets into the as we were discussing a
week or so ag Dave the the straight man, uh premise,
which is in comedy, at least in comedy teams, there's
a straight man and then there's another. And this isn't
(13:24):
a sexual thing. Let's a it's a someone who sets
up jokes and then there's a person who is ostensibly funny.
But when Dave says stick, Dave is, as I explained
to him just recently, a natural straight man. And that's
a very hard thing to come by, just born straight man.
(13:45):
I had to tell him that he didn't know that.
You don't get a letter from any agents, government agency
saying you're even anointed a straight man. But Dave has
always been a very good straight man. What makes a
good trait man? Mr Guest, Well, Uh, it's very hard.
(14:05):
It's one of the hardest things to do. It's hard
to I think there's a uh selflessness about it. There's
a a sense of what the hell just happened here? Why?
Why is the other person saying that? Why are they laughing?
Maybe some of those things are are part of it. Well,
(14:28):
it's music, right, it's it's it's the way music goes,
where someone plays one part of the music and then
there's another part of the music. I mean it is.
It's a it's a relationship a straight man and a sticker,
somebody who does the comedy. You can't have one without
the other. It's that's what makes it so good. Well,
(14:50):
I I would in in my work, whatever that is,
I would not think of my I would think of
myself as um sort of in between. But that but
that for whatever that's worth. We'll be right back with
(15:11):
more good friend after this quick break, so stick around.
I want to go back to Voltaire's Nose for a minute.
John Carpenter when I knew him, when we first met,
(15:33):
and he was just thirty, and he and Tommy Wallace
and Nick Castle. Nick Castle was the guy behind the mask.
Tommy Wallace was the production designer and I think also
did props on the original Halloween movie which was made
for you know, three thousand dollars and twenty days or
(15:56):
seventeen days actually, Um, they had to and and their
original band was the Coupe Devills and they were a
garage rock and roll band and and sort of did
covers and I think they probably had some original music.
Did Voltaire's nos? Did you guys do covers or did
you do your own stuff? Did mostly cover? I can't
(16:20):
remember what the original stuff would have been. It was parties.
I know there were some fraternity parties of Columbia kind
of parties where it was it's a challenging thing. It's
mainly young kids drinking. And we were probably how old
twenty dave I would go if that if and I
(16:43):
graduated from Columbia when I was christ so might have
even been like eighteen or nineteen, could could have been younger. Um,
isn't that crazy to just say those numbers and you
know eighteen and nineteen year olds today and you're like,
oh my god, like you just said it. It was yeah,
and we played some outside things. I don't remember how
(17:05):
those were secured, those uh gigs, but it was an
electric band. But I don't remember that what the original
songs would have been. I remember one song I Don't
Want a part Time Woman. I don't know how the
hell I remember that, and I don't know why I
would be thinking that at either, but I'm pretty sure
that was the name of an original song we did. Wow,
(17:27):
I would love to hear that. Yeah, it's that early
thing of going through different things. For for musicians, you're
also going through the guitar thing, the actual what guitar
are you playing? Thing, and that's a very big thing
through people's lives. It sounds like kind of just a
materialistic thing, but it's when you're young and you see
(17:51):
players that you like here, players that you like, you
clock what instruments they're playing. It's a very powerful thing.
So for me, Mike Bloomfield was playing a less Paul
guitar for the most part, and B. B. King was
(18:12):
playing a three thirty five, and you wanted to emulate that.
I did, as if that was going to be some
kind of magic thing. Dave and I um Dave had
a black guitar, maybe a three fifties it Gibson right,
and I had a three thirty five. We both had
(18:35):
Martin d and that all becomes part of the same thing.
You know of who's playing, what what the sound of
something is. And yeah, it's it's part of that. Well,
it's a language from from my standpoint when I look
at particularly men in relationship. You know, women just by
(18:57):
nature sort of talk more out things as they kind
of first couple up and start exploring young life, young
creative lives. Um. And I'm not saying that women musicians
aren't going to have the similar thing. But you guys
are musicians, and that is in itself a language, and
(19:18):
I have been privy to it in our as you said,
the studio in our home, just the acoustics in the kitchen.
But I've never not seeing you guys play music. There's
just never been a time where the two of you
are in a room not playing music. I've also gone
to bed listening to you guys talk. Um. Your long friendship, David,
(19:44):
for the uninitiated, is a lifelong Buddhist. Um. I mean
since you were in your teens. Yeah twenty okay, I was, Hey,
I pulled twenty out of my ass. Look at that. Um.
You know, you've been dedicated to a very specific path
(20:05):
and teaching, and you are a teacher, you are a student.
It has been a very very big part of your life.
And Christopher has obviously been a musician, but he's also
gone off and and made movies and done many other
(20:29):
activities most people don't know his His most current passionate
really is the intricate tying of these little flies for
fly fishing, which he spends and practices really in the
execution of them. He spends quite long amount of time
(20:52):
daily in that practice. But both of you have dedicated
your lives to a practice of something. You both play music.
Christopher practices his instruments on a daily basis. Chris, Yeah,
And that's something that I think the two of you
have shared in your friendships. It's it's the way you
guys play music together is in a way a language
(21:16):
between you two. Um. And when you do improvisational music,
it is the jazz conversation between the two of you.
And one goes off one place and then somebody else,
and then you come back and you join up again,
then you go off. UM. And I was thinking about
that because I've known the two of you and you've
both gone off and done a lot of things. Has
(21:38):
there been times where your focus in this other world
has taken you kind of off and you've had to
find your guys way back because there have been period
of time, David, where I didn't see you as often,
and then there have been times where I've seen a
lot of you. Well, I think, UM, and I don't
know the exact timeline of this, but when David Uh
(22:03):
graduated college, there was a separation. Basically, I don't know
if you moved, if you did you go to Colorado?
Did you go? I know at one point here what
happened was I, you know, I think probably we're still
in contact with both playing around the village, you know,
for a while. And then I went back to music school,
(22:25):
to Berkeley College of Music, and during that year that
was seventy, I met my Buddhist teacher and then I
got very involved with that. UM and and then i'm
you know, you and I were both out in California
different times, but I lived in l a. And then
I was the director of a meditation center in Vermont
for a couple of years. So during that time I
was pretty drawn, also starting my family, and so there
(22:48):
was a gap there. And what actually happened, Chris is
I had a lucid dream with you in it, Uh,
when I came back to Um, I guess I came
back to New York and I just kind of, you know,
had a very strong feeling of connection, and I called
you up and then I came out and during that time,
during those years, Jamie's when Chris and you were getting together.
(23:10):
So then then when I when I came out to
l A that next time, we had a visit and
then I met you, Jamie, and then I think from
then on though, we've been you know, pretty much in
contact for you know, as as every time I come
to Los Angeles, we were hanging out, you know and visiting.
So that would have been how many years ago would
(23:31):
that have been born? Yeah, So you guys have been
together a long time. We've been together thirty six years
because you know what, you had a cake in the freezer,
had your wedding cake in the freezer for years, but
I you shared a piece with me. Yeah, so that's
(23:51):
when that's when I met you, Jamie our many that's
thirty five years ago. Yeah. Well for the listening audience, UM,
I've been married to Mr Guest for all of that time. UM,
and you know, the cake and the freezer thing is
the kind of old fashioned like you get married and
(24:13):
then you take a piece of your cake and then
you freeze it on your first anniversary. I think you
have a bite of it. You know, I did the
throwing the thing. Um, come on, help me out where
you get married? Flowers no flowers in your hand, your
bouquet and my pregnant is that I didn't catch my
(24:36):
own bouquet. My pregnant, unmarried sister caught the bouquet. Um. Yeah,
that's a good line right there. Yeah, that's a good
opening line for a book. Um. But yes, but I'm
you know, we're I I would say we're traditional that way.
And you know this podcast came from a song. David.
(25:00):
Don't know if you got to hear my theme song,
but I will. Uh for everyone else has heard it
because they tuned in and heard it. Um it's called
good Friend by Emily King. Um. I thought I connected
it on the bottom of the email to you. Anyway,
The point is that I just lost the point. Hold on,
I'll find it. It'll come back. Traditional traditional, thank you,
(25:24):
because I think there are traditional mora's in friendships. There
are traditional ideas. And what I've loved about you guys
as friends is that it's fairly non traditional. Like I
say traditional in the kind of classic dude. My experience
of a classic dude friendship, like it's you do you,
(25:47):
You speak musically to each other. It's always amazing when
you see each other. You There's never been a time
where I haven't gone to sleep and woken up three
hours later. You guys are still talking. Some of that.
Some of that, in all fairness, is prerecorded because we're
(26:08):
watching a movie basically, but it sounds better to have
what sounds like a philosophical discussion. So that's playing and
we're in another room watching TV basically, but no, we talk.
We talk a lot, and we still talk a lot,
and we talked on the phone. I'd say it's those
two things. Yeah, And if we could come back to
(26:31):
the straight man thing for just a moment, please. Here's
my interpretation of it, and it's a basketball analogy. If
if we were a basketball team, I would be the
point guard and I'm kind of setting up the play
and Chris is a toll forward. He's cutting to the hoop.
I'm lobbing the ball up in slow motion. It's hovering
(26:52):
above the rim, and he absolutely, without fail black belt
style is gonna leap, catch the ball, turnaround, twist to
a three sixty, and dunk it. Every Well, if seven,
if the hoop is seven ft high, yes, that's that's
what I would be doing. I'm not getting anywhere near there.
(27:12):
If it's it's it's it's too high. Well, that's that's
a very interesting way of putting it. I think it's. Um,
thank you, thanks for the set up, thanks for the past. Well,
and if Chris is on your team, you want him
to shoot, right, Jamie. You know people all over the
(27:33):
world want him to take that shot. I think that Well,
if it's set up, well, I think we want you
to take the shot, Chris. Um. I mean, obviously, the
thing that's always not surprising to me, but is the
beauty of the long relationship we've had is that you know,
Chris can drop me with no warning. So it's the
(27:57):
it's the facility for maybe I'm an easy target. I
mean I am a fairly easy target. Yeah, so you know.
But and but isn't that really a big draw in
a friendship? See? I want in my friendships. I want
to be seen and heard. I want people to know
me well and be able to drop me. Uh to
(28:19):
my knees in in laughter when I don't see it coming.
When I'm you know, the best thing with Chris for
us is that when I'm so mad, I can't be
mad because all Chris has to two is adjust his
face and no matter how angry I am, no matter
(28:40):
what the issue is, I'm I'm done, and it's you.
You can't in in recovery. I heard once that you
can't hate someone and pray for them at the same time.
You know, you can't. It's not possible because one is
turning over feeling about them that they are safe a
(29:03):
little meta prayer, you know, like a little You can't
do a meta prayer and be like really incensed at
somebody at the same time they are counterpurposing and so
in that sense, it's it's anyway. It's been something that
has occurred with my husband and I for a long
long time. Yeah. Um, do you guys introduce each other
(29:24):
to other people? You know? That's another thing in friendships
is that friendship groups grow and spreads. Has that occurred
with you guys? Dave visited us in our country place
and met some of the friends that Jamie and I
have several friends, but I don't think I have met
(29:47):
Um David's friends now other than people that we both
knew from a long time ago. Well, and I thought
of Chris one thing right away, which is there's a
couple of things that we both are pretty tuned into,
and a lot of our conversation revolves around kind of
two poles of how how screwed up things are out
(30:08):
in the world and why and how and how did
it get that way? And also that against that backed up,
there's this almost miraculous onslaught of talented young musicians and
artists and creators UM. And so I just thought when
you said that, I thought right away with Julian Lage,
who Chris made friends with UM and then introduced me
to and we became friends and musical friends too. And
(30:30):
he's also a meditator, so you know, So that is
a shared passion that we have. Is is an amazement
that we have that in the in the darkness of
these dark ages, that there's these young beings emerging with
so much light and so much talent and so much
to give an offer. So I think that's a thread,
there's a theme there. Well, it isn't it. The I mean,
(30:53):
that's the evolution. I mean, we you hope that there
are some bright lights too too, and that if you
can be a conduit. I know you have been involved
at Berkeley. I know Christopher was on their board for
a long long time, and you know, has been very
focused on young people and how to help them because
(31:16):
nobody really understands, like, you go to a music school
like that, but can they teach you the reality of
what the music businesses today, which is, you know, you
don't want to be a dream buster, but it's a
really complicated world. And I know Chris really focused on
that to try to help people and also to connect
(31:37):
them with instruments to be able to have something that
then they get to go off and create there light
as you just refer to it. So I think obviously
there's a you know, that's to me the evolutionary force
of musical friendship, which is what I would call your
(31:57):
guys friendship, which is a musical friendship. But there's this
other pole and Chris can speak to it. But you know,
I I as I know you guys do have a
wide array of friendships and Chris is almost reminds me
of the kind of scholar sage of days gone by.
(32:17):
You know, he's he's studied, he's he's read a lot
about history. Um, he has a perspective that's that's deeper
than the kind of shallow perspective. And he's looking at
current events against that backed up and UM, it's erudite,
and it's you know, it's it's it's some it's somebody
that I listened to, Um, you know, talking about current
events against that backed up. And you know, maybe a
(32:40):
lot of people don't know that about him. I don't
know if they do or they don't. It's it's, Um,
he's a scholar, but it's it's that's part of the
connective tissue to you. Yeah, I'm interested in those things too.
From a slightly different perspective, I wouldn't say I have
to jump in and say I'm not a scholar in
the literal sense. I read a lot, but I'm not
(33:00):
a scholar. There are people who have read a hundred
books about a given time period. I do like to
read about history, um, and be informed about that. Yes.
But what David is saying, obviously is that as a friend,
I mean, it's a podcast called good Friend. The gift
(33:25):
for him is that you're someone with that kind of
scholarly or I mean, but what you do is that
you then distilled the world today and apply what you've
read and learned of why we are where we are.
And I've obviously been married to for a very long time,
(33:45):
and we are as opposite as two people can be
in that way, because I'm somebody who can look at
the big picture and get the picture of it and
can still distill quite a lot. I don't have to
read the fine details to get basically the idea. And
I mean it's an example of our partnership, Chris, because
(34:08):
you you actually get into the weeds of things. Well,
I yes, And I guess David's weeds are in the
work that he does there there. Everyone has their own weeds, hopefully,
because if you don't, then you're just being a superficial person.
(34:32):
So maybe when we talk that's what we end up
talking about the idea of weeds. For me, that's the
most interesting thing, and it took to some people it
would be not of any interest because it's ourcane in
some way. But for me, the more arecane, the more
(34:52):
interesting it is to me. And I think when David
speaks to people about what he does. If he's speaking
two people about meditation who are not meditators, is a
different way of speaking to them than for someone who is.
(35:17):
There has to be a way to bridge that. I
guess if you have some knowledge, you can't just jump
in to the deep end right away, but you have
to find a way as friends to have a common
point which reflects both of both of the things. I
guess something, friend, We'll be right back with more good
(35:44):
friend after this quick break. You know, there's some friendships
that envelope each other where there is no open on
bro there. It's just not there. It's so ameshed, so
(36:06):
without kind of boundaries that you can't almost discern one
from the other and to try to extricate. And what
I love about that as a theme is that in
a way, the three of us have that because there's
a part of our relationship. David um and I have
(36:28):
collaborated on my children's books. David has written music for
my children's books. Um I am not a Buddhist, but
as Dave might say, but I can play one on
TV um I But at the same time, without any
of the knowledge base of Buddhism, without any of the study,
(36:50):
I still do have a practice that is Buddhism light
is some I don't know essence of it because you've
we've talked about it both on your podcasts and talking
about my own practice as a sober woman and how
I've tried to bring some sort of spiritual life, some
(37:13):
feeling to my own life. So that I and that's
that connective tissue because our circles, my husband and I
have that. You know, we we we are a pair
of opposites, and we both can operate in that opposite
sphere very healthfully without we are a matched pair of opposites.
(37:41):
But where we connect our children, our marital life, our
physical life together, sexual as well as physical um in
time and place and location, and a shared love of
of nature, love of small animals shared, you know, there
(38:06):
the connective tissue is strong with us, which has meant
that we can withstand the thirty six year journey together
while both operating and very other big, exciting, creative um
(38:26):
passionate other spheres. And I'm happy, very happy to be
having this conversation because you've known each other a long time.
Chris and I have known each other a long time,
and you and I have known each other a long time,
and that connective little dot in the middle is what
this episode is really about, which is how do you
have that other life but then still come here when
(38:50):
you guys haven't seen each other in a while. It
never feels that there's any sense of having to find
your way back with each other. Of you just picks
up a guitar and starts to play something. The next
thing you know, you're singing harmony. Yeah, can you repeat that? Yes? No,
(39:10):
that's uh. I think that's true. There doesn't feel like
there's a well, now we have to kind of go
over this to re establish whatever this is. No. I
think that in the last year it's been strange for
everyone that everyone's relationships outside of marriages or boyfriend and
(39:34):
girlfriend or girlfriend and girlfriend and boyfriend and boyfriend or
whatever it is, have been tested by this social separation.
H But I've talked to David on the phone on
a fairly regular basis. I mean, there are times where
a month could go by when you don't speak, but
(39:55):
it doesn't feel like, well, who is this again? When
when also like now you don't have sort of the
more physical pursuits that you share David, am I correct,
I'll answer for him, because well, I do. We we have.
(40:16):
Part of the separation is that David has his practice,
his Buddhist practice, his teaching, which I'm not I'm not
a part of. He's talked about it, but I'm not
a part of that. I have a life, a physical life,
whether it's fly fishing or skiing, or hiking or golf.
That is different, and that those those things that we
(40:40):
actually don't share. But we share the other things so well.
And I like to I don't. I don't like friends
who do exactly what I do. I'm not drawn very
much to that usually, So the idea of being able
to add sorb, you know, somebody else's experience. So when
Chris is talked about fly fishing or skiing, um, I'm
(41:04):
very interested in hearing him talk about it because it's
um and and I'm also interested in finding threads to it.
For example, his he talked about his relationship with his
ski instructor, which is almost like a you know, kind
of serious mentoring relationship as I understood it, and it
had principles that were very similar to like studying Buddhism
or something like that. Well, there, and there are connections
(41:26):
with all of this when I've described to you and
to other people as well, But the feeling of being
alone in the wilderness where literally alone, of camping out
by a river in the bottom of a canyon somewhere,
(41:48):
and you're hearing what's what you're hearing. You're hearing different birds,
or you're hearing coyotes at night, or wolves or whatever.
And for me, that is my version of a meditation.
It's obviously not a practice in the way David does it,
(42:09):
but that is a connective tissue that becomes something we
can talk about where it's relatable. I guess well, I
think that is just a really interesting aspect of your friendship.
About your good friendship is that you don't share a
lot of those music, yes, but that these other worlds.
(42:30):
As you said, Dave, Chris knows about things and is
interested in things that you're not, and you he brings
that into your life, and then as you said, you
find a little thread that jives with something that you're doing,
and vice versa with Chris. He doesn't do what you do.
And you're right. It's a lot of people I think
(42:54):
would say that they connect as you did with music,
but that that connection then stay is all the way
through their lives, and as I said before, that they're
they're so ameshed that it's hard to separate them. You
both have very specific pursuits, and I think people listening
probably have that with other relationships in their lives. That
(43:15):
you each bring to each other, that very special thing
where you can lean in because he's telling you something
or he can lean into you, and you know, I
think that's a beautiful aspect of this, certainly as a
as a witness to it. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's a
(43:36):
big world. You can't cover it by yourself. Yeah, you
gotta have friends, but you have to have friends who
also know you all of you. You know, we we
learn about each other and we're friends in certain areas.
But it isn't a complete portrait because or it's to me,
(43:58):
it's an incomplete portrait because are so much about both
of you that you both know from a very young age,
this cellular growth that has occurred so that you can
all both go off and do your separate things. Well, Jamie,
there's another piece of this, which is that I mean,
I'm just jamming with you guys, but there's something about
(44:19):
my relationship with Chris. It's kind of molecular in the
sense that I've known his molecules since he just barely
had them. How are they doing before they dropped? And uh,
I can when every time I look at him, I
superimposed about ten images of him at different ages, fairly
vivid images of him at eight jumping on a basketball
(44:43):
and being able to stand up, and what his face
looked like, of of him playing guitar. I'm sorry, he
can jump on a basketball. You put the basketball on
the floor. I hate to say this, but you know,
and then um, he could just jump on top of
it and most people go, you know, it would be
the Dick Vandyke show. You know, Oh, I you know?
And he he yeah, that's right. And he would invite
(45:03):
other people who lived in his household to try it
and with not good effect, um, including me probably. Let's say, Um,
so Chris was agile, But I can visualize him at
different stages of his life because I've seen him at
different stages of his life. So it's uh. And and
yet the current iteration is always superimposed right on top
of it. So I'm looking at a molecular evolving situation
(45:26):
there that I'm pretty intimate with in terms of the
at least the visual aspect of it. And I don't
have anybody else like that, you know, I go back
to the oldest other friends. I have to go back
to about twenty Wow, I don't know anybody now it's
my sister. That's all the same thing. Yeah, right, And
(45:47):
we're now getting to an age where we're saying by
to a lot of our friends. That is the new
sort of door that we we our generation of post sixties. Um,
death is the new black well. It's also more of
a trap door and a door. Um. Yeah. And uh,
(46:07):
that's true. And Dave and I are are virtually the
same age. Jamie's younger by ten years. Um. But that's
another thing as you look ahead. I just in terms
of describing your mathematical age two people, I've I always
(46:27):
looked at it as a baseball diamond that you know,
you start out as a baby and you're you could say,
you're at bat and if your middle age, you're on
second base. And someone said where are you now to me,
and I said, I'm caught in a run down between
third and home and the catcher has the ball by
the way, So, um, caught and run down by the way.
(46:52):
Is a very good song title. So that's yeah, and
that changes the perspective of friendship to when you're looking
at everything in a in a slightly different way. If
you're in your twenty, early twenties, even early thirties, you're
not looking at things the same way, and this is different,
(47:13):
you know, Jamie. There's one other piece, which is Chris's mom.
H was the closest to my mom energetically in a
lot of ways they had. They're both very active in
the theater world, in the in the entertainment world. They're
both kind of you know, um business entertainment people. I
used to visit Pushy, you know, Chris's mom, because she
(47:35):
lived out here in near East Hampton and I hung
with her. I don't have that many friends from that
generation that I actually hung out with, and it reminded
me of being with my mom, who's long gone. And
so when Pushy left, I thought, there goes that generation.
That there's nobody to verify any of the stories that
he and I are telling about the days before we
(47:57):
remember what was happening. They're gone, nobody verify, and that's
the that's the um Honestly, that's the reason I don't.
It makes me cry to say it. But I don't
ask Chris to participate in my creative life, this being
part of it, because our pannumbra is so rich and
(48:22):
satisfying that I don't need to kind of go out
into that other realm, you know. But I asked you
guys to do this with me today. I don't ask
you both to do things I wouldn't ask normally. Chris
two come on my podcast and talk. But you see,
(48:45):
your relationship, your long friendship, is something I think people
want to hear about because, as Chris just said with
the you know, caught in the rundown, it's such a
reality of all of our lives, um, and we're all
navigating it with grace and some humor I hope, um
(49:07):
and some expansion, but that you guys really do do
and we'll always have this and as you said this,
you've known each other really molecularly, and um, it will
go all the way to when you're not around. And
not that I wanted to have you guys on the podcast.
(49:30):
You guys are gonna be around. It's so nice for
people to be able to listen. But I wanted that
because it's an example, you know this is a podcast
about good friendship, UM, and what that means and how
does that manifest? Do you have any parting thoughts? Mr Guest,
I don't know if I could sum all of this up.
(49:52):
I'm glad we got to talk, and I don't know
if I could sum it all up. That would be
a big task. I think I know that the people
who have been listening to the Good Friend podcast will
identify with their oldest friend, their friend they made when
they were very young. Maybe the parents brought them together,
(50:14):
maybe they found music together or tennis, you know, whatever
it is, and then they have now grown into adult
people and have kind of come back and forth into
each other's lives the way you guys have. And maybe
they're you know, rounding third and heading for home also,
(50:35):
And I should think they should slide That's the only
thing they should slide into. Okay, UM, But I'm grateful
on behalf of the listeners of the Good Friend podcast. UM.
I am grateful that you guys would take some time
to explore this old friends, old good friends, UM, and
I love you both. And Good Friend is produced by
(51:09):
Dylan Fagin and is a production of I Heart Radio.
Our theme song, good Friend, is written, produced, and performed
by Emily King. Unlogative from a Good Friend, Don't Already
(51:34):
From a good Friend. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
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