Craig Hartzman

This week, Jamie talks with her good friend Craig Hartzman about how their unexpected friendship grew and developed. They discuss family, “easy” friendships and so much more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
If there's something I don't already allative from a good friend. Hi, everybody,
it's Jamie Lee Curtis, and you're listening to the Good
Friend Podcast, presented to you by I Heart Radio. It's
a podcast about friendship. We talk about everything, We cry,

(00:24):
we laugh, we think about what it really means to
be a good friend. And I have conversations with some
of my best friends, some people I've never met, and
sort of everything in between. So I hope by the
end of it that you have a really good sense

(00:47):
of what friendship means to me and the people that
I consider friends. And I hope you can take those
same ideas into your own friendship groups, and I hope
you enjoy it. I don't know idea a a audiative
and a good friend isn't it? Isn't that what it

(01:10):
is to be a good friend. You just trust that friend,
and I'm just trusting Okay, Um, Well, it is a podcast.
It is called the good Friend Podcast. Uh, and I,
Jamie Lee Curtis, am your host, tess um of an
hour's conversation between me and people that I'm interested in

(01:32):
knowing more about what it means to be a good friend.
That's it. It's a pretty simple concept, but we go
wherever the world takes us in that moment. It's free form,
free flowing fun and occasionally there will be sobbing Um. I,
as you know, can sob on a dime um, and

(01:56):
have done so a couple of times here. Um, so
welcome Craig Hartsman. So my friend is Craig Hartsman. Say hello, Creig,
you can speak to my listener. How are you? How
are you doing? It's it's great to be here, to
be honest, Um, it's a kind of a cold and
chilly day where I am right here, so it's kind
of nice to be wrapped up inside chatting. See. Well,

(02:18):
it is a warm I hope are how you're received here?
It feels warm and yummy. I refer to my listener
because of course I have no idea I'm going to
record these and have these conversations before they ever air,
so you know, I'm talking into the ether right now. Um,
And so I refer to I need to know that

(02:40):
there's at least one listener, and um, it just makes
me center in and understand that I'm not just here
by myself with you. So we do have a listener.
I don't know who they are. There might be more
than one, but I don't take that for granted. Um
So I am friends with Craig Hartsman, and my life

(03:01):
is better for it, and mine is too, And we've
been friends for a long time. So I was thinking
about that last night, how we kind of first came together.
It's kind of interesting. So we are both friends with
another woman who we both love, and um, I know
her and her family. But what I the reason that

(03:21):
I thought it would be fun to talk to Craig one?
He's a dude. Well, do not have that many dudes
that you're chatting with? I don't, Actually I don't because
I don't actually foster too many male friends. It's not
out of disrespect or disregard for men. I just doesn't

(03:44):
happen very often, and it happened really strongly with you. Now.
I have a couple of ideas why. And by the way,
we both love our friend who introduced us, and we
both when we see her have beautiful relationships with her

(04:06):
when we see each other. So it's there isn't this
thing like I stole Craig from other people? But you can't.
I think the reason that I wanted to explore this
conversation today is because we connected through another person that
we both know and love, and yet our connection became

(04:30):
something really powerful, um out of a surprise, I think
for both of us a little bit. I think that's
that's really true. You know a lot of times people
try to put people together or you're going to really
like this person, and it's always kind of this strange,
forced thing and it either works or it doesn't. And

(04:52):
what was natural and organic how you and I met
is we were just introduced. It wasn't any expectations. We
just kind of came together. Now we had some very
strong common experiences in life and goals in life, and
it was immediate. And I think you go back and

(05:12):
you look at friendships that you have in the world,
and I think the ones that really endure and are
always there are kind of come out of that. They're
very um naturally happened to each other and you're just drawn.

(05:33):
I mean, you and I were just drawn immediately to
each other as friends, and we just fostered that, you know.
I think we were on a hike or we went somewhere.
We both had children. Craig has two children, both Craig's
children and my children are both adopted children. UM. Craig
and his husband Jim have their daughter and son, and

(05:56):
Christopher and I have our children. And I think that
was a link because here we were two different UM
we had just been introduced through our mutual friend and
and we both were living of similar relationship there with

(06:16):
our children and how our family was built. UM, and
I remember it. I remember, I have pictures of that day.
You know, we went. It was a group activity and
and it it was fun and it remains fun. But
something happened, right, And I think and again that there

(06:41):
is you know, it's tricky here because we both love
the other person, but at the same time, there's a
feeling like are we allowed to feel what we're feeling?
Does it feel weird if we get close? And we
got close, and we got close honestly through circumstances. Things

(07:02):
happened and we shared with each other hard things, heavy
things which we are obviously not going to discuss here,
but personal things that involved our children, that involved our
personal health, that involved our relationships. And you know, you
can't schedule that. That was a that was what happened, right,

(07:26):
And I think that's exactly what I'm talking about, that
those friendships become um and I have a few of
them in life. I don't have a lot of them,
but I have a few of them that are just
those friendships that you always go back to, you always
turned to when things are incredible, when things are wonderful,

(07:47):
and when things are tough. And you and I have
shared those tough times. But but from the beginning it
became and I have to say, I mean, you know,
as as a gay man who kids are now twenty three,
and you know, there weren't a couples adopting and having
families and having children, and and so we didn't have

(08:09):
anybody who had any kind of experience what we were.
We thought we were all alone. And I'm not saying
that you can understand it, but the fact that you
and Chris were these adoptive parents, it was this immediate
connection that we could connect on on that level. I mean,
you came from Hollywood. I I don't come from that.
I come from a different thing. But we had these

(08:30):
homes nearing each other up in where we have our
homes up in the mountains, and we could share that.
But but we come from different but yet similar places,
and it just became this instant. Okay, we're friends, but
now what you say about our friend is interesting because
there was a little guilt of that and there is

(08:52):
something that's fine, and that's fine, right, that's fine. And
what's important year is that you know, as we all know,
life is in session. The clock is ticking. We are
all here to manifest our destinies in the universe. We

(09:16):
are designed. We are not to live alone. We're not
supposed to be alone. People were supposed to connect up
with other people. It is the nature of human life.
It's the nature of relationships. And when you make a
friend like we had. And by the way, so you know,
Craig and I are like Craig is the brother I

(09:36):
never had. I'm the sister he never had. In this way,
like we are. Our personalities dovetails so deeply and crazy
much like each other. We are very similar people and
our husbands are very very similar people. Yes, it's true.
It's true, um not to our type people, but yes,

(10:00):
Christopher m. Jim are similar types of people. Personality wise.
They're both very quiet, they're very sort of studied quiet people,
and you and they're very very measured, well but by
the way, that is what again drew both of us
to our partners. I mean, that's how the world works.

(10:21):
But it's also what drew each other to each other.
You and me. Well, you know what's funny. You say
that you wrote a book, and I remember you. You
you wrote many books, but you wrote a book about
an option and about um what was it? Tell me
about the night? I was telling me again about the
night I was born? And then at the end you

(10:41):
included in one of the versions, you included a song
in it and then you could get it on a
tape or whatever. This is, Uh, the Wind blew you
to me? The Wind brought you to me. It was
written by Nick Turns, his best friend who was on
this very podcast or who or who will be because
we don't know what order they're going to be in.
But David nick turn who is a songwriter who also

(11:05):
wrote Midnight at the Oasis. Oh yes, he wrote a song.
When we were going to include a song with an
addition of of the book tell Me again about the
Night I was born, and he wrote a song called
the Wind Brought You to Me. I used to play
that for the kids when you sent that book to

(11:26):
me and they were little, and I used to send
it and that was one of those things everybody send
you things about, you know, adoption in books and all that.
And you sent that to me and I play used
to play that song to both the kids. I don't
even know if they listened, but before they went to bed,
we'd read that. But it went beyond that about the
kids coming to you. I really firmly believe this, that

(11:48):
that's yours and my friendship also we you know, it
was just the wind was meant to be. Yeah, it
was an unexpected friendship. I um. As you said, our
worlds didn't cross pollinate other than kind of time and

(12:09):
place where we lived, the families we built, of the
friends we had in common. Um. But of course that
has now grown and developed and grown and developed. So
now there's a whole new group of friends that you
are now close with, who are friends through me that originally,

(12:32):
so I now was able to foster a little connection
with other people. And if you told me, and we
won't name them, but if you told me that you
were going to go off and do and you have
gone off and done things with these other people, right,
and I hear about it. I don't. I'm not jealous.

(12:53):
I'm not snarky about it. I'm like not like, oh well,
I hit Tom. It makes me happy because I am
not possessive about really much of anything anymore. The older
I get, the the more I understand the universe. I

(13:17):
am really working on impermanence, non attachment that someone who
used to feel because I felt as a child sort
of unattached, like I felt like I needed to attach
to something. And now I'm I'm the wind will take it.
The wind will take me and ultimately ashes to ashes,

(13:40):
the wind will take me, and you know we'll be
done well. And you once I don't know when it
was a while back you were talking about friendships, and
here we are talking today about friendships. But just you
and I were just chatting about friendships, and and we're
kind of describing a lot of friends we have and
how they fit into your life and the ones that

(14:01):
really do endure to me and you and I've talked
closely about this are the ones that friendships. The friendship
is easy. It's never taken granted for, but it's just easy.
You know the person is there. You and I have
spent many a time where I need you right now,
and you know something was happening and you were there,

(14:22):
and um, Yet we don't foster it every day, you know,
we don't talk, you're off doing it. And I think
those are when those are when they become really special
and I need you to do this. Okay, I'm there,
But then we don't talk for quite a while, but
it's an instant you're right back in each other's lives
and part of each other's lives. And I think that's

(14:43):
that has become and especially during COVID, I mean, COVID's
been such an interesting thing for a lot of this
um and how we look at life and friendships and
all that. You know, well, this was born from COVID.
This was born from that idea of you know, I mean,
it was conceived simply from a song. And then the

(15:05):
reality is that we have as friends. Many people haven't
seen each other in a very long time, and if
we do see each other, it's in a very limited way,
with all the guards and masks and shields and ways
to stay apart from each other. And yet the friendships
are what help us get through this as much, if

(15:28):
not more than anything else. And that's where the term
good friend came from something I know I'll get. If
I'm a good friend. We'll be right back with more
good friend after this quick break, So stick around. I
know I'm a friend. I'd you brought up that you're gay, right, Um,

(15:58):
you were also gay when you were in college. Right,
and you were the president of your frat as an
openly gay man. No, so as a closeted gay man. Yes,
so I I you know, in in recovery, which I

(16:20):
talked about a lot because I can't help it. I
just can't, because you know, I talk recovery all day
long with a lot of people. There's a phrase, Yeah,
there's a phrase we use call that says you're only
as sick as your secrets. You know, the secrets keep
you in the silent sickness of of that. If you

(16:42):
have a secret, um, that must have been really interesting
for you to foster your friendship. So I really wanted
to talk about your early life. I know you have brothers, Yeah,
older brother, younger brother. You and I are this. You
and I are the same age. We're the same person, Craig.
I don't know why we have the same haircut. I

(17:02):
swear people are just to see your picture and go like,
oh my god, they're the same people. So, but I'm
interested in your early life. Let's just go into your
early life for a few minutes, because I'm I'm also
interested in how people form friendships and how many they
carry with them later and stuff. And you're being gay
and figuring out that you were gay. Um, I'm assuming

(17:25):
you didn't know you were gay when you were a
young boy. Did you? Maybe you did, I don't know.
Very typical question. I mean, you know, what's the answer
to that? Who knows? Yes, you know you're different and
you're something, but you know you you spend your life
as every so many gay people in their early sixties
will tell you of of life. You can't be out.

(17:47):
You couldn't be out. And I grew up you. You
mentioned my brothers who are talking about friends. I just
got a note from my younger brother who's um just
recently it's fifty eight and I'm sixty one, and told
me I was his best friend and we had this
whole long thing and it was just really great that
I helped him out on some things. And you know,

(18:08):
but but you grow up with these the three of
you in this very male dominated family and sports, and
I was a sports guy and I was competitive. I
was competitive with my brothers, with my friends. I couldn't
be gay. I mean, there's no possible way. And there
was a book written many years ago by a guy
named Annie Tobias, but he wrote it under a different name,

(18:28):
called The Best Little Boy in the World, and you
know that was me. I mean I was the best
little boy in the world. I did everything right. I
was a sports guy, was the political guy, was the
big guy at high school, involved in everything. And I
can't be gay. But yeah, you do know in the
back of your head, and you try to have those
girlfriends and all that. And what's interesting to talk about friendship.

(18:49):
My college girlfriend is a very good friend of mine
today and after all that, and she and I dated,
and she she's told me I would have been the
ones she wanted to marry, but that was not to be.
Over years and we became friends, really good friends, and
talk about our kids together and all that. But yeah,
I mean it was tough. And you go off to

(19:09):
college and you're trying the end of the seventies and
you're trying to live that life and you don't have
friends to talk to and that is a lonely place.
I mean, let's take that. Yeah, I knew who you were,
getting to know what I was. I'm curious about it.
It's not I'm not trying to talk to them, not
trying to lead the witness here. I'm saying, I'm trying

(19:32):
to bear witness as your friend to what I'm assuming
was a lonely time, very lonely. And you have all
these friends, but they don't really know you, and you
know what they think they know now that now, interestingly,
we go back to this who are your really good

(19:52):
friends throughout life? And there were three guys in my
fraternity house of a large Frattney house, and I'll say
that U, C. L. A. And UM living that perfect
all life. And I my parents found out I was
gay between my junior and senior year and sent me
to a psychiatrist. And all this my my Jewish liberal parents.
You know, we're supposed to be so liberal and understanding.

(20:14):
It wasn't easy, right, and they sent me And I'm
now trying to run my fraternity house because you were
the president and I was the president of the house.
Very straight house back then, I mean that nobody was
out and trying to come back from my from my
junior year to my senior year that and starting my
senior year, and I'm trying to and yet my dad

(20:35):
is sending me to a psychiatrist to deal with this,
you know, and I can't tell anybody, and it goes
to French and I finally realized my roommate, I had
to tell somebody I was busting, you know, and I
had to and I knew he could handle it, and
I told him and he was great, and to this
day we're still very good friends. I've gone through his

(20:57):
divorce with his wife and you know, and we really
close and he was just fantastic. And that was that
release that I needed it to say. And then it
ended up being fine with my parents later in life.
And really because I met my husband or my boyfriend
who became my husband and loved him. I think that
they liked him better than me, I think, but uh, anyway,

(21:18):
it was that moment of that I could lean on
a friend and I knew that it was gonna be,
you know, okay. And then my second fraternity brother, he
and I became the only other Jewish guy in the house,
and he and I became good friends and UM and
he found out about it, and they were the first
two that really found out and UM and now he's

(21:40):
going through a cancer struggle and he and his wife
and I'm in fact, I'm having them come down here
in a couple of weeks, just being the son from
Seattle and just you those are those moments that you
just go back in life and go they were there
for me and it was great, but you're right, it
was lonely. But that's when your friends, your true ends.

(22:01):
Really you need them at those moments to be able
to um share things that you know, I couldn't even
share with my brothers at the time, I mean at all.
I was wondering about that. Yeah. And you know it's
interesting because then my older brother got mad at me
later because I was dealing with my mom and dad
with this and I wasn't including them in it, and

(22:23):
he was mad that I didn't include him as a friend,
not as so much as a brother. But you know,
he goes, well, you didn't give me a chance, And
he was right. You know, I didn't give him a
chance to help me and to deal with well, because
by the way, to give him a chance, there was
a chance that he would react negatively to it or

(22:43):
or have a response to it that would have perpetuated
the shame. I'm so glad he didn't. But at the time,
right as you said, there weren't that many out guys
in a frat. So and you went through life and Amy,
you went through life completely panicked of telling you know,
this is just pre aids and um that you would

(23:07):
tell anybody and how they would react. And then HIV
comes along, and then you're panicked that anybody you know
you It was a lonely, lonely time and a tough time,
uh to deal with. But you go back on these
friendships and then you know when Jim and I got
married and finally when it was legal to get married,

(23:28):
and are really our kids pushed us to do that?
And uh in two thousand thirteen, and you happen to
be there. Uh why do you think I was By
the way, why do you think I was there? I
was there because I was invited to be there. I
was there because I wanted to bear witness to that
moment of joy and commitment and community with you and

(23:53):
your family. It was very important to me and I
will I don't I was going to say I'll share
in the chat, because that's what we all say now
with all of these Zoom meetings. Was like, well, i'll
share in the chat. So I took a photograph. I'm
a photographer. I've mentioned this now on this podcast. Either
it's the first time you're hearing it or the hundredth

(24:14):
time you've heard me say that I'm a good photographer.
But I took a fantastic photograph um of Craig and Jim.
It's spectac yeah, up in the room before we went
down as a photographer, like I mentioned, or you will

(24:34):
hear that I mentioned with my friend Debra Oppenheimer before
the Oscar ceremony when she allowed me to come over
with my Lika and just be very quiet, not say anything,
just let her kind of do her thing getting ready
for the Oscar ceremony where she was nominated for the
Into the Arms of Strangers stories of the Kinder Transport movie,

(24:55):
and you know the same thing. I just hung around
and when you guys got married, I remember saying, can
I just come up and sort of be a fly
on the wall, and you guys were getting dressed and um,
but then there was a moment and I was like, Oh,
don't move, just stay right where you are, doing exactly

(25:15):
what you're doing. Please, just stay where you are, doing
exactly what you're doing, whatever you're thinking, whatever you're feeling.
Let it continue for about another fifteen seconds, so that
I could set my aperture. And I would also because
I can pull up on my phone pretty definite quick,
I would right now go look for it. But we
are live on a podcast, and so I will or

(25:38):
taped on a podcast, so I will not spend the
time searching for it. But what's funny about that moment
is then that right after the photographer for the wedding
came in and we, like Jim and I both got
now you go out. And as you know, my husband,
he is not demonstrative at all, and you know he's
not a romantic kind of guy, but v he is.

(25:59):
But that picture, it became the picture of our wedding.
That not only because take the photographs out of that
this other guy you know, took that we hired. It
came because it had depth and soul and meaning and
it was shot by my friend there. It is Oh
my god, she can pull up anything on her phone.

(26:20):
Let me tell you it is a scary ding. Yeah,
that's it, and that became the photo of our wedding,
and well, it is the photo of your wedding, and
it is it's by the way, it's my friends Craig
and Jim in silhouette facing each other just before a kiss,

(26:41):
and you see, and it in a weird way, makes
a heart shape. The shadow of the light behind them
creates a sort of it's it's spect by the way,
should I ever get to make another book, it will
absolutely be a photograph that would be included. But it
was a proven lige to be at your wedding. And
we're about to have our thirty five anniversary. Holy shit,

(27:06):
I know, been together thirty five years. But anyway, let's
go back on the on the COVID thing. I mean,
it's been an interesting, interesting time of friendships. And you know,
do you lose friendships through it? You keep friendships? You
went interesting with German. I got COVID in US one
year ago this weekend. Yes, I was gonna say in

(27:28):
the early days, in the early days, you you had
gone up to our mountain's home and there was a
big outbreak up there. I really believe that Chris Um,
you know, just missed it because he was domestic because
he came right after that, yes, and before that when
was he there, and he was there regardless, it was

(27:50):
a very near miss for him since many people contracted
coronavirus up in that mountain town right at that time,
and you both did and then came back to yourself
in California and then you know, wrote it out here
and Jim got you know, pretty sick. But it was
interesting during all that time is then our doctor happens

(28:13):
to live right behind us, and he and as he
came over to check on Jim, and you know, we
didn't know what was happening really at first. Well then
he ended up getting it, and then his husband got it.
So we ended up starting this thing because we all
had it, not many other people had, and we couldn't
be out meeting with people. So every Sunday we would
get together and have dinner outside um here and right

(28:37):
out kind of being sick. And they they were sick,
not not very badly. But we then continued this this
thing of a very small group of friendship over Sunday
night dinners. And now we kind of still wanted to
go on and we're gonna keep it going. We call
it Sunday supper and uh, we're having in our house
outside or at their house outside, which is a very

(28:58):
small It was became our little love bubble, if you will, Um.
And I'm not sure that our friendships with them would
have fostered into what it is, but because of COVID,
it really did it. You know, I talked about COVID
in a weird way in Jewish religion. I informed Jewish,
we don't hold to it that much, but on we

(29:19):
have Shabbat, and I used to tell the kids, Um,
on Friday night, can you please just be home? Can
we just have dinner? And it was that moment to
what Shabbat is about. The Sabbath is about just taking
that time out and putting everything aside and relaxing and
I kind of and relaxing with your family, exactly, the
people in your home and your community. And it's why

(29:42):
I don't look at COVID is this horrible, awful time,
because I think it's been a reset and a time
out for so many of us that we're going through
life so frenetically and running around and it stopped. It
made us all kind of stop and exactly what were
talking about today. I think maybe this sounds to trite

(30:03):
or whatever, but it made us kind of evaluate our
friendships with people and connect with people that if we
were still running around maybe we wouldn't have done so much.
It really made us slow down and stop and make
contact with people and check in with people. So that's
super lining of COVID. I think it's been just kind
of wonderful. You know, I agree with you, yes, and

(30:27):
the and you know the thing that we I have
to you know, because my listener maybe a single person. Um.
You know, COVID was brutal and single people, single people
who the loneliness of you know, when Chris and I'm
married a woman named Lee Hancock who's no longer alive,

(30:51):
she wrote her own vows. Um my sister in lawhead
used her, had had her marry them, and so, you know,
I didn't know anybody who got married and you know,
so we were like, okay, we'll use her too, And
we met with her in New York and she was

(31:11):
lovely and we flew her out here in blah blah blah.
And in the marriage ceremony, which, by the way, I
have married other people and I have used this part
of her ceremony when I have married other people, Um,
and it says today you have chosen, you have come

(31:34):
together today to combat the loneliness of human existence. Mm hmm.
That you're you're saying you to loneliness. That you are saying,
we are making a commitment to come together to fight
the loneliness of human existence. And you know, I know

(31:56):
many single people who suffered hor doably during COVID. UM,
I agree with you about the silver lining and the
closeness of relationships. Some some some relationships have distanced, and
that has been challenging because can you make up the
distance in a way, you know, like when you think

(32:18):
about a race, even though friendship obviously is not a competition.
We hope, we hope, we hope, we hope, But you know,
if you just think of it as a race, and
you know, people have moved ahead of each other, it's
very hard to catch up sometimes. Uh COVID will I
think Obviously a lot of marriages have broken up during COVID,
A lot of relationships have broken up during COVID. A

(32:42):
few relationships have been cemented because of COVID. Certainly certain
friendships have been strengthened. Um, with COVID m both the
vulnerability and fragility of our friends and the horrific realities
of what COVID did to people, and the way I

(33:02):
think the way people showed up for other people during
the COVID pandemic is the part of this that felt
to me so life affirming. Was watching neighbors help neighbors.
UM in my own small circle. You know, Jenny who
works with me and who runs my hand in yours

(33:25):
my little company. Um. Jenny adopted nurse families in her neighborhood,
and we all supported her effort to simply provide food
and you know, for these nurse families, so that these

(33:46):
nurses who were every day on the front line of
this battle with this pandemic, that they would come home
and have dinner. And I will never meet these people.
These are these are group of women who live in
her neighborhood who are nurses. And she just was like,
this is how I'm gonna This is my paying it forward,

(34:07):
this is my suiting up and showing up for other people.
And I think COVID certainly did that in many, many
ways in many areas, right, And that checking in of
other people just on their well beings. Yep, absolutely, yeah.
You know interesting. I just recently we were traveling. We're
not traveling, but we have another home somewhere and I

(34:27):
was over there and I sat down. I hadn't done
it for so long. Actually, our daughter who just got
engaged on Christmas eve MASLTV, thank you, blessing on your head.
Mazltof to muzzletov to see your daughter wed, muzzle to
muzzle talk that poor wedding planner has to deal with

(34:49):
two dads anyway. And the really nice young man who
she got engaged to in the middle of all, he
was with us on the trip uh at our place.
Um his grandfather passed away from COVID and it was
really hard to watch because they couldn't be there with him.
You know, so many people dealt with that, and I

(35:09):
don't know. I've met this young man's mother, so the
daughter of the person who passed away just once. But I,
instead of I sat down and wrote a letter, a
really long handwritten letter to her. And then I went, wow,
let me do more of that. And I sat down
and wrote a couple of other people. My friend who's
an attorney, brother who's has cancer. Now I sat and

(35:30):
wrote him a long letter in handwriting, and I have
terrible handwriting, but I said, well, screw this, I'm just
doing this. And it became this moment of friendships that
I would never have sat down, I think before COVID
if this hadn't made me stop and go, you have
the time, sit down and do this. It's gonna mean
a lot more to them if they get this handwritten

(35:52):
note uh to them. Oh absolutely. And it was just
kind of well, I kind of go also, and I'm
not but I got inspired by your you know, your
whole thing that you're doing for the hospital, for the
children's hospital. I know you've talked about that quite a bit,
but it was about the hands and the carrying in

(36:13):
that my hand in yours, and that's what it became.
And I was really, you know, friends don't always get
to tell you this. I think what you've done. And
I'm not blowing smoke because you and I don't need
to do that, dumbs. No, we're not those people. But
it's very inspiring, you know what what you have done
in that in a in a time. You know, my
mom is dealing with pancatic cancer and I gave her

(36:36):
one of the you know your hand gulptures that she
has right next to her bed, and those are those
things and during this time has been really pretty amazing. Yeah,
it's something I know I'll get if I'm a good friend.
We'll be right back with more good friends after this

(36:59):
quick break and a good well. I haven't actually even
mentioned it on this podcast yet, so this opportunity right
at this moment. So for the uninitiated listener, thanks to
the lovely assist from Craig Hartsman, my friend, our guest

(37:24):
today on the Good Friend Podcast. UM, I know my
voice gets very late night DJ kind of by lean
in and I get a little quiet. It's like we're
all here together and dark I whenever someone is in
trouble anywhere any time being a health issue or personal issue,

(37:45):
or we're separated by time and space. Um, and I've
sent something I always right on a card, always and
have for a very long time. My hand in yours.
You know, I've heard about what And I love you
my hand in yours, Jamie, which is my way of
saying I'm not with you. But imagine what it would

(38:07):
feel like if I was sitting right next to you
with my hand in yours. That it would you would
feel what that feels like. And I had always done
that and um I before COVID. Weirdly enough, as I
am now of a certain age where TikTok TikTok TikTok.
We joked, you're a sports fan. Christopher and David nick Turn,

(38:30):
who wrote the song the Wind brought you to me.
We're on the podcast and we were talking about age,
TikTok tiktotok, no time to waste, TikTok TikTok, and Chris.
Chris said he was describing where he is in his
life in baseball metaphors, and he said, if you know

(38:55):
second base is mid middle age. He said he was
caught in a rundown between third and home and the
catcher has the ball, like that's that's where he is. No, no, no, no, no,
no he is. He is saying he's caught in a rundown.

(39:16):
And then we and then David nick Turn and we
spoke of it, and I said, that's the greatest name
for a song, caught in a rundown. I mean, my goodness.
So maybe there'll be a song that will be born
out of the Good Friend podcast. UM by David nickturn. Anyway,
I'm at that age where I've got to get done.

(39:37):
I am just TikTok TikTok, like I better get stuff
doing it. And I had this idea. I know I
collect and Ricketts, a sculptor. I collect her work, those
little bronze hands feet, little sculptures. I'm going to call her,
I know her. I'm going to commission her to create

(39:59):
a UH a sculpture of two hands holding. And my
thought was that I would sell them on Instagram. Literally,
I thought I'd sell them on Instagram because I invented Instagram.
But we'll discuss that later. Anyway, I that I went
to her, she said, yes, I ordered UM. I ordered
a hundred sculptures from her, and of course I'm paying

(40:21):
for them. She was very generous and said, I won't
charge you my fee. I'll just charge you the production.
It's all going to charity. I said to her, I'm
going to underwrite it and give all the money to charity.
And what happened was are other friends that I've introduced
you to UM through UH in the way that friend

(40:44):
good friends meet other good friends. They run a business,
a restaurant business, and they have a great website, and
right when COVID hit, I remember, I called them and said,
I think I maybe need a website for this. How
do I do that? Who is it? And they gave
me a name of a young guy in Canada and

(41:04):
I called this guy and I was talking to him
and I said, thang and thang, and it's the sculptures
and I'm gonna underwrite it and give all the money
to children's hospitals Angeles. And he said how many did
you order? And I said I ordered a hundred and
he said to me, you will sell those in a day.
And I said the F word to him. His name

(41:24):
is Oliver, and I said, f you, Oliver. Come on,
and he said, Jamie. People want what you're about to
offer them. People want a way to give to charity.
People want to connect, people want to do something good.
And what you're saying is you will receive a sculpture,

(41:47):
and the money's I pay for that sculpture? Will I pay?
Meaning you the consumer will be donated two children's hospitals,
zero overhead. Anyway, it began something much bigger than I
ever ever anticipated, and we've now you know, really um

(42:08):
expanded it. We have a lot of items. We have beanies,
we have candles, we have wind chimes, We're gonna have
baseball hats. Um. We have beautiful necklaces and sculptures. We
have little medallions, which are our lowest price point item,
which is a twelve dollar item, but a hundred percent
of that goes to Children's Hospital. And up to this point, Um,

(42:33):
we have donated two hundred and fifty thousand dollars to
Children's Hospital Los Angeles through my hand in yours, which
was started August four of last year. That's unbelievable, but
you know, mactacular, but so thank you for letting me
describe to my podcast listener, um what I've been up

(42:55):
to this year. But it is it is the nature
of a good friend, babe. It it's born out of friendship.
The fact that you even brought it up. Well, and
I told you and your coins weren't met for this.
But these incredible medallions I bought, I bought I think
ten or twenty of them. Now I give them out
to friends who I play golf with a ball markers

(43:17):
as ball markers because they're just great and everybody loves
them and they really are just But it's it's it's
the nature of your giving heart. Also, what you need
to know about Craig and Jim is their commitment to
the arts. And that's the other thing that I wanted
to talk about today before I lose you, which is

(43:40):
art is a crucial aspect of society, any society, anywhere
from primitive cave societies on. Art is the expression of
a society. It is um the most sacred aspect of
a society is the art that is produced. And let me.

(44:04):
Let me and as we go back and do history,
let's go back to Pharaoh's times and we go into
the pyramids. What do we see. We see the art
that's left. We go to Ephesus and we go and
we see the art and architecture and things like that
that has left. And it defines societies that have come
and gone. And that's why it is so important to

(44:26):
keep arts alive. And it's it's the greatest extension of
friendship because your commitment to art brought me into your
commitment to art. That's how it works. It's it's a
great example of good friendship because art pulls people together.

(44:50):
It is a unifier. It is something that joins us
all in so many ways, and I have you always
is felt that way? Or is this something that's happened
more in your adult know, it's funny. I am so
not artistic, you know, aging I am like the last
guy who you know, You've got a couple other really

(45:13):
good gaugings. So well, I don't know about that, but
um yeah, I've always loved art and I love the
visual I love the stimulation of it. I love what
it does. I do love that it can't. What's important
to me is that it can um bridge between economic

(45:34):
areas and color areas of humanity, that they can all
see it and enjoy it and be inspired by it,
and it is a universal language. Worries from it learned.
But to me, it's always been about exposure to art
and what we can do to to help with that. Uh.
In fact that my kids school, my kids aren't even

(45:56):
into art. However, my son is now an art history
agent going to you know, which is interesting that he
did that, but he went a whole different way. He's
very much into historical art and um and and I'm
a contemporary art collector. But we've built a art education
place at my art kids school in Portland, Oregon, so yeah,
I've always been involved. Now I'm very involved in in

(46:19):
an art museum and uh, but important for me is
exposing young people and communities of color that don't always
have the chance um opening up to their exposure to
art and to help them. I mean, you just talk
about friendships. You help me out on a big thing.
Now you just sent me something that I might be

(46:39):
interested in, and I am. I think it speaks right
to what and I think that's what friends do there, like, oh,
this is I need to get this to them. They
can do it and there's no you don't expect me
to do that, to get involved in it. But it's
just but I but you might be interested. I think
that's great about us that we can do that. Yeah,

(46:59):
I think that what good friendship is. And I think
my friend Dan McCleary started something called Art Division for
underserved um predominantly black and brown young people in the
city of Los Angeles, to expose them to the fine

(47:19):
arts and exactly what I talked about. So it exactly
my heart right and that's and so the other day
when Dan McCleary and I connected up, the person who
popped in my mind was Craig not not because I
expect you to help them, but because I know that

(47:42):
this is the mission that you care about, and that
that's I think a responsibility of good friendship is that
we connect dots back. But um, the other thing that is,

(48:03):
and we have to be careful because we don't know, um,
where my listener lives and um whether that my listen
listeners a man or a woman or um. We don't
know anything about our listeners. So we just put it
out there, our thoughts, our ideas with a sort of

(48:25):
global wide reaching umbrella of inclusivity, UM, understanding people's points
of view, etcetera. All of that is a really poorly
worded lead up to politics, the dreaded P word. But
the thing that I and I we don't need. This

(48:48):
is not red bashing or blue bashing. It's not a
political podcast. We are not I'm not even espousing political
ideology here besides humanity and the continuation of humanity and friendship.
But your ability is a intellectual leader, as someone who

(49:13):
puts their money where their mouth is. Um, you have
also been a guide and a help because your passion
and your enthusiasm for change and progressive ideas has led
me and Christopher too. Things you have been I do

(49:36):
look at you as someone who i've I believe I've
maybe said the words a couple of times, Run, Craig, Run,
because I do think you're the whole Enchilada. I think
you have the intelligence, the experience, the humanity, the resources,
the humor, You're are kind of handsome, um and all

(50:04):
of that. As I mean, I have a face for radio.
Is that what you're saying. You have. You just have
a heart for politics, is what I'm saying. And without
getting into specific politics or policy or I can't imagine
people don't know that I am somewhat more of a

(50:25):
progressive person, but but I'm also a very conservative person
in many many ways that I think people would be shocked.
But again, this is not the podcast for that. But
what I did want to say is that I do
as a good friend, I lean in when you talk
about things because you talk about things from a place

(50:49):
of research and intelligence, and I'm impressed with you in
that regard. You know what's what's guided me. And we
talked about my college days or Elier and I was
a political science international relations major out of U c
l A. And I did go into politics at a
very young age, working um for a governor of California.

(51:12):
And uh, I'm trying to say, interesting, my, my, And
this is why it's okay to say that, because I
started out on one political party and moved to another.
But but what's guided me is not politics. What's guided
me And and this goes to you know, I sound
very Jewish and I'm really not, but I was very

(51:33):
involved but in progressive Judaism. And we have a thing
in Judaism that goes back into the tour at tokunalum,
which is repair the world. And that's why a lot
of us are involved in social conscious issues and um.
And that's kind of always guided me. I know what
guided my father very strongly, who was a doctor, and

(51:56):
it was repairing people and and and hoping with people.
But he was also guided and m was not very religious,
but he built the synagogue where I grew up, uh
as a as a layman, but he was so much
more interested in kind of that tokuna love repairing the
world and looking for at social issues and that and

(52:18):
it kind of always guided guided me, uh in in
so much of what I do. And I just want
that fair and and fair to everybody. I mean, obviously
I'm a gay man and come out of looking for
LGBT rights. I was involved with human rights campaign and
at a pretty young age, which was the largest gain
lest being. But but really, you know, it's it's always

(52:40):
been about equality, equality for everybody. Raising a young woman
uh in my family to make sure she realized that
she could one day be equal and have that. And
I don't know why we all don't work together as friends,
as politicians and everybody, why we have to be so
split upon the aisle. We need to work together on

(53:04):
on what I think is common humanity goals. And that's
what's what's always guided me in that, and I do
my research. I've been involved with some politicians on leadership
and and and you talked about run Run Run, Well,
you know I've thought about that. I've chatted about that.
I have friends whore talking about it. Right now, I'm
taking more of a leadership role with some young politicians

(53:25):
that I think have a future in where they're in,
helping to guide them where they're going. But again, as
long as they uh, we have to stop being so
afraid to you know, reach across and to build friendships.
And that's why I asked you to be a guest
on a good Friend podcast because I knew that you

(53:47):
would figure out a way to be able to articulate
that which is important to talk about in a time
of great division. And I think coming from a gay
man who, as you so poignantly talked about, lived not
a gay man's life early on in your life, because

(54:09):
that just wasn't I wasn't going to fly. And that
you have come to such a place of of understanding
and contemplation and advocacy and and support. Um. And you
know that is the quality of a good friend. I
don't like any if there's If that isn't a quality

(54:33):
of a good friend, Craig Hartsman, then I'm not sure
what is. And we shouldn't ever have a podcast called
good Friend because if you can't say that, if the
way you just articulated the thing that is almost unarticulatable, UM,
then I'm I'm very happy that that was uttered under

(54:54):
this umbrella of good friendship. And you are a good friend.
I love you. UM. Thank you for being our guest
on the Good Friend podcast, and for anybody listening if
you're out there, stay safe, you know, take care of yourselves,
make good choices, and reach out to a friend. And
reach out to a friend, and we'll see you again.

(55:19):
Thanks for living. Don't Already Good Friend is produced by
Dylan Fagin and is a production of my Heart Radio.
Our theme song, good Friend is written, produced, and performed

(55:43):
by Emily King. Don't already well gative I'm a good friend.
I don't already iative I'm a good Friend. For more
podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.