Surviving Jeffrey Epstein feat. Lisa Phillips

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Atlanta. Guess what the good Moms are coming to your
city on April twenty six. We're pulling up at the
Black Effect Podcast Festival.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
That's right, We'll be hitting the stage with other hot
podcasts like R and B, Money, Trap Nerds, Naked Sports,
and Sarah Jakes.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
And if you've ever been to a Good Mom's Bad
Choices show, you know it gets real, real bad and
we have some special guests. So I'm so excited to
meet our Atlanta tribe. Make sure you pull up April
twenty six to the Black Effect Podcast Festival and get
your tickets at Black Effect dot Com Slash Podcast Festival.
See you there, hey, tribe. Happy Sexual Assault Awareness and

(00:38):
Prevention Month. This episode is due for trigger warning. We
are getting into some deep topics about sexual assault sexual
abuse and we wanted to brief you before watching this episode.
I encourage you to listen. It's very informative, it's very honest,
and hopefully helpful.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Once upon a time was a good old traditional housewife.
Cod She cleaned and cared for her children and the
man of the house, and of course she didn't talk back.
She was both obeat, hint and soft by nature. She
was a good woman who always made good choice.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
We're good Mom's bad choices too, single mom who said
fuck the patriarchy, shared all their bad choices and found
out they were so bad after all, we're experts.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
Overshares and your new besties.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Sit back and enjoy the ride.

Speaker 5 (01:27):
I can.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
Welcome back to good Mom's bad choices. I'm Erica and
I'm Mila. Happy Wednesday, Happy hump Day, y'all. How you doing,
I'm pretty good. You look cute. Thanks, We're giving Tantrica
boss bitch. You know I had a client today. Did
you wear this singer? Client? No?

Speaker 2 (01:48):
But feeling the energy because I put this on. I'm like, yeah,
I'm gonna put a blazer on. Yeah, I'm having a
good week. I'm just you know, seasons are switching. I
had a good weekend with Luna. This weekend, we went
to the We went to Alvin Ailey Ballet. It was
her first time.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, I saw. I'm so mad. I like, when I
was looking online the tickets were so expensive they probably
didn't sell out and so we could just walk in.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
No, what happened is I bought them online. I was
going I was gonna drop off to my mom because
I wanted her to experience it. And then I was like,
let me just fucking go. And I found a ticket.
It was it was too good to be true. It
was Orchestra for sixty eight dollars. And then I got
there and they're like, oh, stub Hub's been scamming people
all day, so we've been giving. We've been selling tickets
for twenty five dollars. So I'm like, she's like, you
can just you can like dispute it, and I was like, fine,

(02:31):
I'll just buy the ticket twenty five dollars though, but
it was on the balcony. I saw everything as beautiful.
I was tired as fuck.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Though.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
We left like a park birthday party. They drove two
hours to get to. Then I went to the ballet.
But at the end we saw Angela Bassett and my
mom was like, and then I was like, and then
she was like, and then we were all like, and
then here goes Linda. That's the girl from Wakanda. I
was like, girl, that's Tina Turner. I was like, look
at the fucking age difference up in here talking about

(02:58):
that's the lady from Wakanda.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
I mean, well, that's the beauty of her career. It's
spanned so many fucking years. She's been so many different.

Speaker 4 (03:06):
Characters, right, we're all star striking, like meaningful.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
To different people at different stages in their life. Yeah,
that was like pretty.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
I felt like I saw a black royalty. You did,
so that was like walt. Yeah, me and my mom
and Luna were all hype.

Speaker 4 (03:21):
So it was really cute.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
And then yesterday we watched Mawana too, which wasn't as
good because it's not as you know, Lynna Mmanuel Miranda
didn't do the music. I only know that because Linda
told me. And and then we rode eight mile eight
mile bike ride eight miles.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
You and Luna, where the fuck did you go? Didn't
Elle's house? So you drove, You rode there and rode back. Wow,
it wasn't that bad. She was a bit proud of her. Yeah,
she was like it's hot.

Speaker 4 (03:51):
I was like, it's gonna get hotter, so you might
as well.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Did she like stop for waters and ice.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
We stopped for one water and you know, I pumped
her tire, poor thing. I think she was trying really hard,
but the fucking tire was a little flat. So I
was like, I was like, is that better. She's like, yeah,
much better.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
I'm like, canm. I'm happy obstacles, You're like, get it together.
Her first fucking ten mile ride.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
She's had a long one before. We were like in
the street, like in the bike lane too. I'm like
looking behind me, like, please, God, nothing happened to her.
I'm fucking biking her eight miles.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Oh my god. It was fun.

Speaker 4 (04:23):
We had a good time.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Then we went to dinner and she told me secrets
from her school and I was like, perfect group, best friends,
tell me everything.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
So we had a good We had a good weekend,
so I'm happy. That's cool. How was your weekend? It
was good. We saw Cleo Soul so that was great.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Oh yeah, we did that too. I had the weekend
of the arts. Yeah that was great.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
And then what did I do the day after that
birthday party? The birthday party? I drove two hours the
birthday party, shout out to Nearland, Happy birthday, Julia, We
love you. I lived for as fuck, so everywhere I
go is going to be that. And then yesterday I
did something that I've been wanting to do and I'm
happy to share that I finally did it. Me talk
about this on our episode with Nicole Russell generational silence

(05:04):
about interviewing my grandmother and my great aunt and my mom,
and so I finally did it. How was it? It
was really good. I'm very drained today though, like I
didn't I know, like I know that like I take
on people take on energy. But I was literally sitting
on the floor in the middle of all of them
as they're sharing and talking, and it was good. My

(05:26):
grandmother really came like I asked her, like when I started,
I opened up the space and was like, oh, this
is a safe space. Please just be as honest as
you can. And she was. She was very, very honest.
She shared things with me that I've never heard her
say before, and it was just interesting, Like I had
I had spoken about this the other day that I
listened to this episode with mel Robbins and doctor Gabor

(05:46):
and he was talking about epigenetics and all the childhood trauma,
and he was also talking about how siblings have different
experiences in the same household and a lot of times
siblings are kind of discarded and being like, oh, yeah,
like I don't you were raised by the same parents,
Like what the fuck are you talking about? And this
was a prime example of being in the same household. Obviously,

(06:08):
my grandmother and my great aunt are nine years apart,
so they definitely got differentis of they got different parents,
they had different experiences, and it was challenging for my aunt,
who was younger than my grandmother, to hear my grandmother
talk about their father because that's not the experience that
she had with her father. My grandmother had a very
traumatic childhood with her dad, and my great aunt had

(06:31):
a really great experience with her dad. So interesting, So
I saw her getting emotional and like, you know, she said,
like I don't want to sit here and defend him
because I can't because that's not my experience. All I
can say is like it breaks my heart that you've
that you had that experience and that wasn't my experience.
But I do feel like this like urge to defend him,
but I'm not going to. So it was it got heavy,

(06:54):
It got heavy, and I realized I got to do more.
Like there was we were sat there for three hours.
It was three hours and still and still like I
feel like I got to like I didn't even get
to like the like to meet of it. You know.
It was like I was really trying to document their
journey from like New Mexico, Mexico to California, and like
also weave in like what was going on during those times.

(07:17):
And I just I know now that like I need
to sit with my grandmother one on one too and
talk to her, because it's a little bit different when
you're sitting in front of your daughter and everybody's there.
So I feel really inspired to continue the conversation. My
grandmother was like, please don't share this on the TV screens. No, Graham,
not the TV on the TV screen does She's like,

(07:37):
this is yesterday's conversation. Was so stupid and silly. Say that, yeah,
it's so stupid. I don't know why you want to
know any of that stuff, but just don't share it
on the TV screens, okay. And I was like, I'm
not going to share it, Tony. I'll only share it
with your permission. And I don't really have a desire
to share it. I really just did this for my family. Yeah.
So anyway, this morning I woke up. I was bitch.

(07:58):
I was so tired. I tried to wake up like
four times and I could not. So this morning I
finally got to the shower I saged. I was like,
maybe I need a sage something mother fucking energy off
of me. That didn't work, but I feel I'm here,
I'm sitting in our in our seat, and I feel better.
At least you did it. I did it.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
It's recorded, you can always reference it back. You can
keep doing it and make it easier the second time.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, I have.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
One great aunt left. I'm like, do I need to
go to Philly and like this one she's Jehovah. I
don't know how open she's going to be. I feel
like all the Jehovah's are cool.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
I'd be surprised how much people are waiting to share.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Okay, thanks, Yeah, so now I feel I didn't even
think about her as an option, but she's like my
last oldest living relative. So I have to so thank
you for the inspiration and I'm glad that you did it.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, it's important. Well anyway, you guys, we have a
special guest here today. I'm really excited because this month,
if you didn't know, a sexual assault awareness and prevention month.
And I met this beautiful woman that say next to
me a few years ago at the Model Experience. Shout
out to Ashley Runway and I was hosting a panel

(09:03):
and we connected and I've been watching her journey over
the last six months and I'm so inspired by you.
So I want to welcome to the show. Lisa J. Phillips,
who is the host of From now On podcast, which
is a podcast that shares the shares people that have
been victims of sexual assault within the entertainment industry and

(09:24):
the arts and the creator in film, TV, sports, Welcome
to the show.

Speaker 6 (09:30):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, thank you for coming.

Speaker 6 (09:32):
Super excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
So I was super inspired by just the work that
you've been doing. It's been I've been seeing all the
clips on Instagram and you're really going there, like with
a lot of with your story, which we'll get into,
and just all the people that are sharing and speaking
out about their these horrible experiences that they've had, and

(09:56):
I think that so many women and people have not
just in the entertainment industry, but just in the wind
just living and existing. So yeah, can you give us
like a little bit of insight and to like your
journey to the podcast. I know that you had a
whole career before being a podcaster as a model and

(10:17):
an agent. I think or is that what you're doing. Okay,
so yeah, maybe tell us a little bit about your
journey into your podcast.

Speaker 6 (10:27):
Well you just said it. You were like, you know,
people just want to share. You'd be surprised of how
much people want to share when she was talking about
your grandmother. And that's what I found, is that people
connect over sharing those stories. And so, like you said,
I was in the fashion business since I was a teenager,
travel all around the world and loved it, and I

(10:47):
felt like I built myself up to a certain level
as an agent and then a manager and opened my
own business and all that stuff, and I'm just like,
I just want to do something that just means something
that's something that his career ageous and brave, and just
something where I can just step out of this person
who I've been and just become somebody a lot more
powerful because I knew it was in me and I

(11:09):
had this story that I've been telling little bits by bits,
and then everyone's doing podcasting now, so I was like,
I just want to do a podcast. That's the way
I want to start sharing my story. But I felt
like I needed to share in a way that felt
comfortable and I felt supported with another survivor to share
as well. So I started this podcast where it's called Fromenolon,

(11:33):
where I share my story, but I also open up conversations,
deeper conversations about other survivors abuse and assaults that have
happened to them on their way of building their careers
or you know, ambitious women, they come up against powerful
men and a lot of times, you know, we are

(11:56):
in situations where it's compromising and and you know, assaults
happen or abuse and then.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Feel powerless and just and so for our audience, so
that you guys know Lisa, she is a survivor of
Jeffrey Epstein. And you know, Jeffrey committed suicide in twenty nineteen,
I think in suicide or whatever. Yeah, suicide is that
is Do you not believe that he committed suicide?

Speaker 4 (12:23):
You believe somebody killed him in prison?

Speaker 6 (12:27):
Yeah, I mean that's what I believe. Yeah, sure, just
what I think.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
I mean, he probably had a lot of people's secrets
on his oh right, right on his Yeah.

Speaker 6 (12:36):
And there was the whole basis of Jeffrey was that
he was recording everything on powerful people, so you knew
everyone's secrets.

Speaker 4 (12:43):
What a cynical little crazy fuck?

Speaker 1 (12:48):
How did it all start? Like I because I think
some people think like it's sexual assault is like one way.
I know, it's very layered and it's nuanced. So how
what was your journey into this, this situation with Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 6 (13:04):
Well, I just think like nowadays, like people are learning
about assault because everyone's talking about it on a podcasts
or being educated more so. I mean we're talking about
twenty years ago now, you know when this happened. So
I didn't know anything about this type of abuse or
even what to look out for. I was naive and
just thought everyone was so I want to help you out.
Of course they want to help me out, and I

(13:26):
just didn't know. You know, when you're younger, who do
you trust?

Speaker 1 (13:31):
You can trust? Yeah? And then you meet like a wealthy,
powerful man who's charming and nice and listens and thoughtful.
And I think that's like a lot of the grooming
that happens where it's confusing for people, where they're like, wait,
did I participate in this? Like is it my fault?
Like I think I was reading I was reading some

(13:51):
stats on sexual assault and I was actually fucking astonished.

Speaker 6 (13:56):
Oh yeah, you'll be shocked.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
And I want to just read through some of this
stuff for our audience before we get into this, because
I had no idea some of these stats. One in
five women and one in seventy one men will be
raped at some point in their lives.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
One in five compared to one in seventy WHOA, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Eighty one percent of women and forty three percent of
men report experiencing some sort of sexual harassment during their lifetime.
And like we were talking about this, I was like,
eighty one seems low. Yeah, Actually, I feel like ninety
nine point nine percent of women, approximately one in three
women and one in six men have experienced some sort
of sexual violence other than rape. And this is the

(14:37):
stuff that really was crazy is around sixty eight percent
of sexual assaults are not reported to law enforcement, and
ninety eight percent of rapists will never spend a jail,
a day in jail or prison, like ninety eight percent.

Speaker 6 (14:54):
Well, most of them get away with it because they
don't report it, and there's so much shame around it.
First of all, you don't report it, and you have
to do it pretty quickly after to do the rape kit,
and a lot of times, you know, you just have
so much shame. Most people report it or start talking
about it six or seven years later, Right, that's the average, Wow,

(15:14):
many years later, And it's usually because you hear someone
else's story or you watch, like, you know, a TV
show and you see like the similar dialogue. Wait a second,
that happened to me?

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Right, you have to almost like see it played out
to understand that it's actually experienced that well.

Speaker 6 (15:28):
I mean, I knew what happened to me, you know,
in twenty twenty, sorry, in two thousand. I knew what
happened to me. I was aware of it, but you
have shame, you suppress it, you don't know who to
talk to about it. And it wasn't until you know,
women started speaking out about Jeffrey Epstein that I felt
comfortablely be like, okay, what is second, that's what happened
to me, and then wanting to reach out to them

(15:49):
and talk about it and see where our stories kind
of lined up. And you know, all the stories accord
with this guy were all the same, whether you were
underage or not.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
And the gay and they were in this in these
stats that were saying that most assault happens between the
ages of eighteen and thirty four, how old were you
when eighteen thirty four? How old were you when you
started when this started happening to you?

Speaker 6 (16:11):
Twenty twenty one, twenty.

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Twenty two, that twenty or twenty one years old? Yes, okay,
And I was reading you know, when I was reading
your your story about how you met him, which was
I think you guys you were you had to shoot
in the Virgin Islands and then a friend of yours
invited you to his private island or something, or his
island he was renting.

Speaker 6 (16:32):
Yeah, well, that's so crazy about it because most people
who were invited into Jeffrey Epstein's web were through Gallaine Maxwell,
the underage girls in Florida, or you knew him or
introduced through another friend. That's just the way he operated.
And was like, oh, hey, your first friend, you know,
I was a mentor of mine, Come meet him. But
I was just on a photo shoot in the islands,

(16:52):
right I was just minding my own business and a
photo shoot. And the other young model was like, hey,
we have a day off. I have a friend who
owns an island right here. Do you want to go?
And I'm thinking, well, I just want to get away
from the photographer of them want to shoot with right,
because he's the photographer, was also like creeping into my
bed at night, you know, and I was just like
so freaked out. And he was a younger, like hot photographer,

(17:14):
but it wasn't it was still right. And so when
she invited me, I was like, yeah, I want to
get away from him, not knowing that another predator's.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Out to a whole other, whole.

Speaker 6 (17:25):
Different type of predator. So yeah, and we just took
a boat over to his island and just thought I
was just meeting like this wealthy guy who kind of
just kept to himself and you know, played in the pool.
But I observed some things when I was on the
island that probably wasn't supposed to see, and he introduced
me to someone who just had walked up, who later

(17:47):
ended up being these young girls were saying this man
had assaulted them.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
You know, they said that during the at the island,
they told you this.

Speaker 6 (17:57):
Well, he's part of royalty in England, so you know,
I just saw some things that had happened. And then
later on when I when I got home, he relentlessly
called me over and over and over, and I, in
hindsight think that the reason why he did was because
I saw things and he wanted to kind of keep
me in his orbit.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
To make sure you were good, Like good, did the
girls that you the other girls that you saw there,
or did they were like obviously young?

Speaker 4 (18:21):
Were You're like, god, they look even younger than me.

Speaker 6 (18:23):
Well, no, because I was young.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, so you're like, I'm so mature, And.

Speaker 6 (18:26):
Do we ever do we ever say old? Are you elder?
I just assume we're all young, right, So I just
assumed they were around the same age as me. Yeah,
I didn't know at the time, or even if I
had asked them. Thember was a while ago. Maybe they
said they were older. I don't know, but I didn't
know they were or fifteen, six or seventeen at that time.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
I mean, I think all girls are kind of like young.
First of all, we're like we're groomed by society at
just immediately, like we were literally groomed by society by
like boys will be boys or you.

Speaker 4 (18:54):
Know, older men.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
You know, like there's just like an an an understanding
that you just be quiet and you show up and
like you smile and nod and like if you're here,
then you're lucky. Exactly you're lucky and you're mature, and
just keep it hushy, like.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
They want you to feel like chosen that everyone gets
to come here, or if someone's handsy with you, it's
because you're you're beautiful and that's normal and like, well.

Speaker 6 (19:16):
That's a sense of power. Yeah, So anyone in the
music industry, the modeling business, fashion, arts, entertainment, sports, whenever
you have that power dynamic, especially when they're ten, fifteen,
twenty years older than you, it's always this power dynamic.
So you you are, as a woman, usually just kind
of quiet. You kind of go along with things because
you're scared to speak out, you know, or if someone
touches you, you don't know how to react in that moment.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
You were not trained on that smiling and keeping it
cute because if we, like if we blew up, then
you'd be causing a scene and that'd be crazy.

Speaker 4 (19:45):
And then why are you dressed like that?

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Why are you there?

Speaker 6 (19:47):
Exactly? And they also play on your dreams, so a
big one is okay, Like Jeffrey was like that with me,
what do you want to do? Like what are you?
What's your big dream? And you know, I had super
big dreams and I was ambitious at that time, so
they play on that ambition, right, and so he kind
of used that, you know later on, but he was
asking those questions in the beginning, and I thought, oh

(20:08):
my gosh, this man who cares about me. He's asking
questions and most men don't ask you about anything about yourself,
and so when someone does, it's like, white a second.
They care about me, you know, in a certain way
where you feel like you drop your guard you feel
feel like welcomed and special, special, special.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
You know.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
When I was reading, I was reading an article that
you I think it was on The Guardian where you'd
shared your story about the girl that brought you to
the island and how you know, she had made it
very like this is normal, like she didn't like really
explain anything to you, and how he invited you to
to give him him a massage and she just was like, yeah,

(20:49):
let's do it. And I know that in the article
it shared that you shared that you obviously felt uncomfortable,
but you went through with.

Speaker 6 (20:55):
It because well, it's on the island, you are not
island alone and all myself. Yeah, and I remember this
man had kind of groomed me for the last two hours, right,
I felt comfortable. It was amazing.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
So this was like day one.

Speaker 6 (21:07):
Yeah, well yeah, we went over to the island and
we spent like the day there and this was at dinner.
So at dinner for two hours and hanging out, he
focused his attention on me, asking me tons of questions
about myself and and I have kind of an interesting
past because my father was in the Air Force, so
I grew up half my life in Europe, so you know,
I had lived in England. And at that moment, you know,

(21:28):
a prince walks up. So it was like, wow, you know,
I have really important people on this island, and.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
This princess I think I was reading recently, it's finally
like come to light. It's Prince Andrew like that. He
has a deep, dark past of this and it's finally
being exposed. And I don't know if he's ever going
to go to jail for it. Probably not.

Speaker 6 (21:48):
But the girls don't want to speak out. The women
now don't want to speak out, right because you get shamed,
and you know it would probably scared too, And yeah,
most people are scared. You don't want to go up
against that type of power. But I mean that this
power has been taken away because he's been shamed in
many different ways since. So I started speaking out because

(22:10):
I had a girlfriend after I came home from the
island and stuff, who was told by Jeffrey to go
into a room with this, said Prince. So when I
started speaking out in two thousand, it was for her
to say, wait a minute, I saw things, I know things,
you know. So I was trying to like just speak
out for her, not even knowing so much about No, no, no,

(22:34):
I didn't really want to talk about me. I wasn't
ready yet, you know. So it came about because I
saw him on the island when I was there in
two thousand. I saw another thing that happened with him,
and so that's what I was speaking out about.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Not even your own stuff, No, like this this is
more important, not my own thing.

Speaker 6 (22:53):
For us that you know, it wasn't. And remember I
was also so brainwashed after that to think that this
was a good person.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
So even after that experience, you felt like you had
a good time there, even though like you had an
uncomfortable time, have a good time. Oh maybe not a
good time, but like it was in it was there
was something that brought you back enough to there was
a grooming had gotten had groomed enough for you to.

Speaker 6 (23:14):
Say, well, well i'll explain what happened. Okay, it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (23:18):
So yeah, So I was abused on that island that
night with the girl in a kind of a threeesome
situation where it was just a massage. Come in, you know,
Jeffer's ready for his massage, and we did a massage.
It was a real he did like massages, but that's
how he kind of opened it up, you know, lures
you in. It's just a massage, and then the massage
can turn into assault. So that's what happened on the island.

(23:40):
And then I went home disgusted and I hated this man, right,
so I didn't want anything to do with him. But
like I said, in hindsight, I think from what I
saw on the island, he and his women who worked
the secretaries were constantly calling me every single week, sometimes

(24:00):
twice or three times a week, and it was almost
like harassment because I kept saying, why are you calling me?
I'm not going to go see that man. And then
Jeffrey called me one day and he said Lisa. I answered,
and he said, Lisa, I remember what you told me
on the island is that you wanted to be a
Ford model. And I'm like yeah, and he's like, yeah,

(24:20):
well I'm friends with Katie Ford, and I'm like Katie Ford,
like she was the owner of Ford Model Agency at
that time forod models, and so I'm just like yeah,
and he's like, well, I know her and I think
that you that she would like you, and I want
you to go meet with her. And so that was
it for me. That was it because that was my
big goal and dream. Oh yeah, I started modeling at

(24:44):
fifteen and sixteen. I had already been working at a
high level and worked all around Europe and South Africa
and went to Greece. You know, I was working at
a very good level. But that was the agency, the
dream agency in two thousand that I want to do with.
And on the island he asked me, he said what
was your big goal? And I said, well, I want
to be a Ford model. I'm an actresses, I want
to all these things, but I want to be a
Ford model. And I don't know if I don't know

(25:05):
if he mentioned he knew Katie Ford back then, but
when he called me up on the phone four months later,
that was just it for me, And that's kind of
how it happens the grooming process. They do something big
for you, or if you want to be a singer,
it's like I know some and so right, So that
was kind of it for me. And after that, I
just went and I met with Katie Ford and from
there signed up with the agency and I was with

(25:27):
Ford Malling Agency for over ten years after that.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
And after that? What was your relationship with him after that?
How was that? How did it did he feel? Did
he make I'm just wondering because I think the abusers,
they use and they yield their power in so many
different ways. Some people will be like remember that thing
I did for you, or they just keep giving you
things to keep you coming in. Right.

Speaker 6 (25:50):
Well, we have to differentiate between these types of master
manipulators and abusers and the ones that just want to
be who go up to girls and like, I can
help you with your singing career, your podcast into all
this stuff, and they haven't really, they don't have any
way they're really going to do it, or even they
may know people in the business, but they just really
want one thing from you, right. I Mean, there's so

(26:10):
many of those types of men. Let's say they're men,
because most are men you know, in you know, Hollywood
and in the music business and arts and entertainment. So
there are men like that. Then you have these men
who are really good at grooming you and making you
trust them and making it seem like they have alter motives,

(26:31):
right that are just more silicious and more devious and dark.
Jeffrey is in that category, right. So whatever he was
doing with me was to probably keep me quiet because
you know, a few years later things came out about
him and he wanted to make sure that I wasn't talking.
So it was to keep what I had seen quiet.
And it works because when they are a person who's

(26:54):
actually doing things for you. So he did something for
me that was huge, That was huge, That was life
changing for me right right at that time of my life.
And so now all of a sudden, Jeffrey's a good
guy in my you know, my mind. Wow, it switched.
You want to why, because when I went to meet
with Katie Ford, she said, I love Jeffrey. After that,

(27:14):
he would invite you to charity events, big, you know,
big charity events and things, and and after that it
was like everyone loved him. Everyone talked highly about him.
He was a genius. And you have to remember who
we know of Jeffrey Epsteen today was not who we
knew of him twenty years ago. He was a powerful person,
but he wasn't a playboy. He never gave you drugs,

(27:35):
drugs and alcohol. He wasn't a P diddy, right, He
never gave you drugs and alcohol. He wasn't doing all
these things where people were like, oh, don't go with
p Didty party?

Speaker 7 (27:43):
Right know?

Speaker 6 (27:44):
You know, we all knew what you know Shawn Colmebs
was doing back then, but with Jeffrey, it was more
like on this higher level of powerful person, you know.
So it was just it was just very different. And
I'm a kid, like I mean.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Most of all, like I think people forget, like in
your early even like you don't know shit and you
think you know shit, and so all you know of
the world is like this person is something like huge
for me.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
It's life changing.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
And so there's an admiration and the love that like
in a respect that you can never like there's no
there's nobody else who could probably have done that for you,
and so you're just leveraging that energy and thinking like
you're in debt to this person. And I think like
even now when you hear like you know, the trolls
on the internet and shit like that, Like the shame
that people cast on victims is so crazy to me

(28:35):
because a lot of times it's like you don't even
have to be a kid to be manipulated by men.
You don't even have to be you know, like like
I said, like society grooms women this way, we super
like sweep under the carpet, like the manipulation of men,
and like how deep grooming can go into like and
to grown women, you know, like it doesn't matter how

(28:55):
old you are. You can think, you can feel empowered.
You can feel like powerful and still get got because
you're like, oh shit, like they just conned me real quick,
and you know, charm and personality and giving people the
benefit of the doubt because women have literally been trained
to be to be quiet and to be you know, palatable,
and to be like, oh like be nice and sweet

(29:18):
because if you're rowdy, then no one's going to like you.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
If you make a big noise, no one's going to
like you.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
So we're constantly questioning ourselves, Like damn was he being weird,
that was kind of weird, that massage.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
Was weird, but then he did this.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
So then you're constantly going back and forth, Like I
think we are bred in society that literally has planted
seeds of us forgetting our intuition, yes, moving away from
our bodies, moving away from the in like the natural
indicators that something is going off and something is wrong.
And so we're constantly trying to be liked and loved

(29:49):
by people around us and not make a lot of
noise and not like make a lot of trouble, and
so things happen to it.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
Grooming happens to us easier, and like even in school like.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Be quiet, raise your hand, Like there's all these like
minor things that train us to shut the fuck up
essentially and to go against our own bodies. And then
shit like this happens, and then people are like, well,
why the fuck do you do that? Well, bitch, because
I love it here right.

Speaker 6 (30:13):
No, that's what a lot of people will say to you,
like why didn't you why'd you fall for it? Why
didn't you get out? Why didn't you do this? Why
don't you do that? But that's the thing, like even
just like the power dynamic at school, the teacher, you know,
high school and college, the teacher and student. They they're
holding something over you. And you find there's so much
abuse actually with women with boys too in the school
of coming out lately too, because you know, you have
that power and you can get whatever, like flirtatious thing

(30:36):
that you want from the student.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
And I guess there is a level of like uh
like programming that even women are given to.

Speaker 4 (30:43):
Leverage our sexual our sexual power, that that.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
It means something that we then have some type of
power over these older men, when in fact they know
what the fuck they're doing, and you feel like, oh,
I'm liked, I'm mature, he's choosing me. Oh this this
person of statue likes me than this, and like even
with the like the school dynamics, like yeah, like I
think as adults we underestimate the power dynamic because you

(31:09):
think that you're in your power, you feel empowered, but
then when some shit happens and you look back, you're like, oh,
what the.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Fuck just happened? It can be that quick.

Speaker 6 (31:17):
Yeah, like you're not even aware of it until probably
months or years later.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
I mean I think too, I mean in the industry
that you're in, which is modeling. You're revered for your beauty,
you revered for your body. You're yielding all of these
physical qualities to book the job, to get them to
buy the product, like all these things. And so then
when you're actually when you're twenty years old, twenty one
years old, I was like, you're still figuring out even
though you've necessary, I guess, mastered in some capacity, how

(31:48):
to yield your sexual your sexuality, I guess in a
physical form. Mentally, there's still this little girl inside that
still doesn't even know who she is sexually, who probably
doesn't even know her body, who doesn't have the stamina
the confidence to say no in those type of situations
where there's like a power dynamic, and also there's a

(32:10):
way there's also where we leave our bodies too, Like
in situations we're like, okay, well it's just that one time,
it's fine, and like we were having this conversation on
camera where like you start to think, well, I've given
my bodies, I've had sex with people for less, so
it's fine. I've had that one night stand and I
woke up and I was like, what the fuck did
I do? And so at least I'm gonna get something
from this, and then you're like not realizing how much

(32:32):
harm you're actually doing to yourself because it was actually
easier to get nothing.

Speaker 6 (32:37):
It's funny you say that because a lot of users
will say that you'll just go with the you know,
a guy your age, and it like they use abusy,
So why can't you be with me when I'm actually
doing something for you. You're actually gonna get something out
of it, right, And then.

Speaker 4 (32:49):
You're like, well that's kind of true.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Ye You're like, yeah, I have slept with so and
so from fucking the ninth grade and he's stupid. You know,
there is and there's a level like you said, like
of like oh he chose me, and that means I
have something special and like I'm special because I'm with
Even in movies, like if you look at even like media,
like older rich men are depicted as something like to

(33:12):
be like surprized.

Speaker 6 (33:12):
Yeah, to be desired.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
When did this abuse stop?

Speaker 6 (33:18):
I went on for about three or four years?

Speaker 1 (33:20):
Okay, and what was it?

Speaker 5 (33:21):
Was it?

Speaker 1 (33:21):
You that were just like finally stopped? Likely enough is enough?
I'm not going to like, well.

Speaker 6 (33:26):
I feel like I couldn't I couldn't never get away.
You know, I just always felt like this person, like
how am I supposed to just stop going to see him?
Because I was also getting something out of in a
way that he was like a mentor to me, and
he was also this genius. So when I would go
visit him, I always felt like, Wow, I just want
to pick his brain. I want to learn more, you know,

(33:48):
when he would tell me little secrets, I felt like
I was like in with him, or invite myself friends
to dinner parties or like charity events or Broadway shows,
and was always a group of people, and I felt
like I was part of it all. You know. It
wasn't until it was like okay, you're ready for your
massage and it's like, how do I get out of here?

Speaker 2 (34:07):
You know, then you feel like indebted, Yes exactly, but
we got the tickets, go to the dinner, and now
I'm like, fuck, Okay, I knew this was coming, and
now I kind of have to do it.

Speaker 6 (34:15):
Well, that's how it is with all abuse, because it's
always a good and bad and every because it was
all bad, you would never go back right right, But
it's the good. They're always even abusive relationship is always
the good husband for a while fifty percent of the time,
maybe even up to seventy percent of the time, and
then he beats you. Right, So it's like this always
this cognitive dissonance that you have in your mind. I've

(34:38):
had that for years in other relationships too, where it's
this good, this constant good that they feed you and
feed you, but then they then it's.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
Abuse, well because they know how to, they know how
to like get you really really really high and make
you feel really really good, and then they snatch it
from you. And then you're always trying to scramble back
to this person that you once knew and this this time,
and you're.

Speaker 4 (34:59):
Like, wait, well, where's that person?

Speaker 2 (35:00):
And it's almost like you're in competition with yourself because
you're like, if I can if I could have got
this this version of him this time, then eventually this other,
this version is going to come back out, and then
you're constantly like what the fuck.

Speaker 6 (35:10):
Yeah, And you're constantly going out and everyone's saying what
an amazing person is. Everybody back then said that he
was the most amazing person. I used to say it, right, so.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
And then like on top of this, him you're in
an industry where you're constantly fighting for your life and
genuinely like and I can only imagine like photographers, and
just like the constant like interference and boundary crossing that
you're already dealing with on top of this assault.

Speaker 6 (35:40):
And this like you know, so thinking it's normal.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
So you're just like it's like I feel it everywhere.

Speaker 6 (35:45):
You know, in older men and younger women. You see
a lot in like parties and things like that.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Still, what like now that you're stepped away and you're
out of that part of your life, when you're looking
back on that in those times, like, do you see
like the ways in which this assault was like affecting
affecting you in different ways, like the way you showed up.
I don't know if like you fell into any any
habits or anything for coping. What were those ways? Oh?

Speaker 6 (36:13):
For to suppress the memories, I would go out like
I was like a socialite, a big social light back then.
I would go to all the parties and the events,
and you know, drink alcohol and I've used drugs, you know,
and things like that, just to kind of suppress the memories,
because it absolutely does work. I don't I don't advise
you to do it that way, but it works in
a way. I'm just like, oh, I've forgotten about.

Speaker 4 (36:33):
It for so long.

Speaker 6 (36:34):
Oh yeah, you have a bad episode, you know what
I mean? And then you know, something horrible happens, and
then you wanted to go out drinking and partying that night.
Because also on the flip side of that, you feel worthless, right,
and there's a lot of shame that comes with it,
and in your mind like what am I doing? How
do I get out of this? And then you can't
talk to people, you can't say hey.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
You know.

Speaker 6 (36:54):
The crazy thing about that is is in the three
and a half years that I knew him, it wasn't
until my girlfriend came to me crying that said to me,
you don't know who Jeffrey is, Like, you don't know
who this man is?

Speaker 1 (37:06):
Like what do you mean?

Speaker 6 (37:07):
Because she has some different experiences and and she's just like,
you know, he made me do something that was really awful.
You know, he made her go into a room in
his house and have sex with someone, and he made
her do it. And after that she was like, who
are you? Like, why would you make me do that?
And remember I remember he's recording everything, like filming, filming

(37:29):
as cameras everywhere in a room in his house in
his Upper East Side biggest mansion, or a townhouse in Manhattan,
and he's filming everything, every room, everything that goes on.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
So people know that they are being filmed.

Speaker 6 (37:42):
I mean, we knew there were cameras in there, but
probably not the men that are going in rare and
probably didn't know because I mean, the girls are young girls,
and if they're not under age, a younger girl, let's
say twenty four and under, I would say that's about
the age range. You know, they're not doing it for fun.
They're not doing because they want to go sleep with
the prince or go to sleep with this guy or

(38:04):
this fat lawyer or this like, you know, whatever it
is that they're disgusting some of these men, but he's
making them do that, do this as the women that
have come out and spoken out about it, and it's
awful because he's using you, right, he's making you feel
like I'm doing all these things for you, but he's
using you. So that that didn't happen to me. That
happened to my best friend at the time, and after

(38:25):
she told me that, I was like, what do you
mean he made you go into a room and have
sex with this guy?

Speaker 5 (38:30):
You know?

Speaker 6 (38:31):
Said, I didn't understand it because that was getting so
much darker.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Than what I thought it was. I thought it was
just light. You know.

Speaker 6 (38:39):
You think it's light because you see these things happen
parties and you know lots of people who maybe flirt
with somebody or maybe even have sex with them to
you know, get a movie roll or get this or
get that so that you know that kind of stuff happens.
But when it's on a darker level where he's taking
these women and introducing you to these older, powerful men
who still the list has not come out.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
Right do you think that list will ever come out?

Speaker 6 (39:03):
All they did was release a list who showed up
at his parties in that island. Who cares Oprah or
whoever showed up doesn't mean they know anything that's going
on right right right, So the list know the powerful men,
the ones that I know and the ones that my
friends know about, have never come out.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Because they're paying big bucks to make sure that shit
never comes out because the video someone has these videos
store never. People are getting paid off majorly not to
release that shit.

Speaker 6 (39:27):
Well, the most powerful and wealthiest people in America, so
it's never going to come out.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
So when that happened, that was when when your friend
shared this with you. What did that do? What did
that do to you?

Speaker 6 (39:39):
Well, it just was like quite a second. Well first
I was just like scared death. But I went to
go see Jeffrey after that and kind of confronted him
because I wanted to get out of like this whole
web I was in with him. And after that, I mean,
she told me I would think March or April, and
I had left New York by May and moved to
Los Angeles. It was two thousand and.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
Four, and that was the biggest reason why.

Speaker 6 (40:00):
Yeah, I lovet because of him with.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
That conversation, like when he when you brought that to him.

Speaker 6 (40:07):
Well, he just the one thing I've always remembered. He said,
I like to have things on people.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
I like to have things on people.

Speaker 6 (40:15):
So it was just getting so dark.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
And he meant that to you as well, like he
was threatening you.

Speaker 6 (40:23):
There's something that happened that day that I've never really
talked about that went pretty dark. And after that I
knew what kind of person he was. But years up
until then, I was always saying, Deffrey's amazing, He's great.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
You know.

Speaker 6 (40:35):
My parents' house was not that far from his home
that he owned owned in New Mexico. My parents lived
in New Mexico at the time, and so you know,
I would go to his house and like ride horses.
He wasn't there, you know, he was like part of
Like he would send gifts to my parents' house. In
the little Black Book that came out, my parents' number
was in it, you know, So like I knew him,

(40:57):
and I always thought, like, Okay, I have things that
I don't want to talk about. But he was also
part of my life and a mentor and a really
good mentor of you know things that he really taught
me about life and business. And he started the businesses
of many of my friends. He put them through college,
He bought computers. He introduced a lot of friends to
their husbands. Like this is a man who did major

(41:20):
things for young women. So a lot of people loved
and adored him during that time, and he was part
of things. So when it came out in two thousand
and six that he and Gallaine Maxwell were actually abusing
underage girls, that's when everybody flipped the script on Jeffrey Epstein.
It was after we found out about underage because the

(41:42):
over age eighteen to twenty five, I mean everybody, that's fine,
and we're doing that right, those kinds of things, so
it wasn't unheard of. So what really hurt Jeffrey was
finding out about these underage girls. And these girls were
not like the eighteen to twenty five in New York
City that were ambitious and beautiful actresses and models. And

(42:04):
you know, he helped a lot of these women. He
was hurting me, hurt the other women too, but he
was hurting the underage his children. These children were from
like rough parts of town. They were already addicted to
drugs or came from abusive families. And Glaine and she's
in prison now, you know, I went to her trial.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
That was what also. But his lover, right, wasn't I supposedly.

Speaker 6 (42:27):
I guess then back in the day and then she
was in his circle of powerful people and helping to
find I mean literally going to look for these underage
mostly blonde or you know, white females.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
Right, she's in jail forever, I'm hoping or what's coming?

Speaker 6 (42:43):
Did she get sentenced she got sentenced, but probably not forever.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (42:47):
To be the only woman, the only person that's gone
to jail for everything that Jeffrey Epsen has done is
a woman.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
Interesting, that's crazy. It's interesting that she even like as
a one. Like a lot of times abusers have women
to help. Oh, that's like always it makes it makes
it feel comfortable, safer. Yeah, but that's always like astonishing
to me because what the fuck like that a woman
would do that to another woman.

Speaker 6 (43:10):
But I mean probably, yeah, I didn't care about these
young girls. And she's from a royal family, or not
a royal family, but a wealthy family in England with
friends with Prince Andrew and all those people and stuff.
So I think she just looked down on these young
girls like there were nothing. I mean, I've ever heard
that she said that about them. So it's this whole
level of evil.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
How do you feel, like, you know, reflecting back on
the situation and then like thinking about just your childhood,
was there anything that like is correlated in like any
sort of experiences or the childhood of that could have
contributed to you feeling powerless?

Speaker 6 (43:51):
Well, I mean it's funny you say that, but the
childhood I think the first seven years is it defines
all of us for the rest of our lives.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
Right.

Speaker 6 (44:00):
So the childhood is funny thing because I would have
never have said. I always said I had a great childhood.
Traveled all around the world, you know, and went to
great schools, and had supportive parents that you know, we're
always there for me. My mom stayed at home, my
dad worked, I had everything I wanted, popular are lots
of friends. I always said I had a great childhood.

(44:21):
But to answer question, I never had like a relationship
with my parents that I felt loved and adored and
cared for. And I never felt like they were proud
of me. You know. I always had a little bit
of shame maybe about my childhood, and that had to
do with my parents. My dad never really called me
and checked on me, how are you doing, you know,

(44:41):
and telling me I saw you on TV or I
did this because I was very successful in my twenties.
I was always on TV maybe five ten commercials every
that were popular commercials, and you know, in magazines and
things like that. I never felt like nobody gave a
shit about me, to be honest. So I think when
Jeffrey gave me that attention that it's a father figure
would give you, not a playboy, it was a father

(45:02):
figure mentor. I was just desperate for it, you know, Yeah,
I was desperate for it. So I just wanted I
like that attention from a man. I did, and I
like learning from him, and I felt like someone cared about.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Me right here, giving you guidance, giving you support.

Speaker 6 (45:20):
I did, and that's why. Also when he died, I
still get emotional when he died. When I saw him
the news that he died, I felt like part of
me had died. So sick to say that because of
who he is, but a part of but he was
a part of my life for a few years that
I looked up to and he was a mentor to me.
So it was confusing, very right, So you feel kind

(45:41):
of like a family member died. I feel differently now
now because I've been on this journey and I've met
with survivors and I know now what I was, what
I was going through, and what I went through, and
I'm very much aware of the abuse that I went through,
where a few years ago I didn't even think about it.
It almost like it didn't even happen. And I've had

(46:01):
to go through many years of therapy to actually talk
about it. And it took me three or four months
even to start talking about the abuse that happened to me
at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
You know, I think people underestimate the fact that like
a lot of times, your abuser is someone that you
admire and love, and that it's usually generally very confusing.
It doesn't matter like if something happens to you very
young or like it's it's a lot of times in
order to be groomed, you have to you have to
grow an affinity for that person in order for them

(46:32):
to be for you to be vulnerable enough.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
To let it happen.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
And I think people like particularly men or people who
are looking from the outside and like, are not recognizing
how deeply intricate those relationships actually are. Even to like
childhood shit, when like you're you know, kids are molested,
it's like you're you're also being aroused, so your body
is responding in a way that it feels good because

(46:56):
this is what your body does, and then.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
That feels very confusing.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
I think even for me, I was molested for a
long time growing up, and it took me a long
time to even consider it that because it was from
someone who's close to me. It's a female, she's a
little bit older than me. Like I thought, like, this
is what kids do, very normal. I thought this was
normal normalcy. And as I started to go get older
and talk to other people and like just educate myself
more and just these conversations become more like on the forefront,

(47:24):
I recognized that, Like in my adulthood, when I would
be in situations with boys that I did like, but
I didn't want to keep going. I would just freeze
and shut up. I would freeze, and I there was
like a specific moment where I remember like saying no, no, no,
and then I.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Just literally checked out. And I was like, what the
fuck is that?

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Even in my own head, like that's weird that I
could just check out, but recognizing like as a kid,
I did that, and so our bodies, how our bodies
deal with trauma in childhood. It's like if you cannot
handle the big emotion, if you cannot process it, that's
how your body protects you. Your body, your psyche is
protecting you. So you do forget, you do freeze, you

(48:06):
do literally tether from your body because you can't handle
what's going on. And so if that is something that
has happened to you in childhood or you know, early
developmental ages, is as you're getting older, that is something
that you will your body will automatically do to protect itself,
and so you just think you're protecting yourself. And same
like even as an adult, Like in my thirties, I

(48:27):
was raped and I would never even say that word
until I had a client. I was doing her lashes
and she was raped by someone she was having sex
with on a regular basis, but this one particular time,
he would not stop and she was telling me about it,
and the client was a little bit kooky, a little
bit crazy, and I was like, she's crazy a little
bit and I was like, uh huh. And you know,

(48:49):
she came back three weeks later to get her lashes
refilled and she was like, you know, I've told my
friends that story and none of them said I'm sorry.
None of them they were all like judging me. And
in that moment I realized fun I judged her.

Speaker 4 (49:01):
And then in that.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
Moment again, as I keep going, I'm like, bitch, you
were raped.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
It took all of those steps to acknowledge that I
was a not having any empathy for this woman because
it was someone that she had had, you know, voluntary
sex with before and she's an adult. And then it
took her step further part to be like, my friends
didn't even like show up in a caring way, and
I was like, damn, I didn't really I didn't really
feel And then that moment, I was like, bitch, this

(49:27):
happened to you very recently by someone that you love
and that you had sex with voluntarily, so you didn't
I didn't even think to consider this thing rape.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
And it just it took.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
A lot even for me to say the word rape
because it's such a heavy word that women are mostly
told not to say.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
And also so like putting that putting that word on
your abuse or feels like heavy, too heavy, because that
you can't take it back.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
You can't say that, yeah, that like it's like it's.

Speaker 4 (50:00):
It's it's it's a weird thing for women.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
It's a weird thing in general because if I then
call you a rapist, then that's what you are, and
then then I'm in it. Then I have then I'm
a victim, and then I'm a victim and then I
haven't done anything. And there's all these there's all these
layers to abuse and how it starts and how it
like and how it continues and how it plants its
seeds in your life as an adult. And even now

(50:24):
in this very moment, like I've had shit happened to me,
like it, even in this process of like good Moms
talking every week for fucking seven years, I feel very empowered.

Speaker 4 (50:36):
I feel very confident.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
So I thought, so I think you know, and so
I have been put in situations as an adult like
I never even said anything about this on the podcast.
But when I went to school for TANTRA, a school
that is supposed to be trauma informed, well, we learned
about sexual assaults specifically and trauma. The night of my graduation,
a teacher who had comforted me and supported me through

(51:00):
like a release that had to do with sexual assault,
then groped me and said something like rubbed his fucking
bare body on the back of me and said like
basically he wanted to have sex with me, and I
fucking froze.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
And I just didn't know what. I literally didn't do anything,
and I didn't.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Know what else to do, and I didn't even like
I The next day, I was so like other people
saw other students, everyone noticed what was happening, except the
people who were supposed.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
To notice what was happening.

Speaker 6 (51:32):
But I did that in front of everyone.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yeah, and he did.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
His wife was there what At one point, the owner
of the school was there.

Speaker 4 (51:39):
Apparently nobody noticed any of this behavior.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
The next day, I called Orlando and I was like, Yo,
this shit so and so happened. And I was like,
I don't want to tell on him, and He's like,
what the fuck are you talking about. I was like,
I don't want him to get in trouble. I even
said to one of the other students. She was like,
let's go back there and tell the other teacher. I
was like, I don't want to tell the white man.
I don't want to tell the white man on the
black man. And she was like, that's the only other
man that there is. And I was like, hold the

(52:04):
fuck is this guy that I'm protected.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
Protecting this black man for what?

Speaker 2 (52:08):
And I just recognized, like in that moment, like I
started to unravel and I was just like I literally
even when I called I called the founder of the school.
I was shaking and I had two students around me,
like I'll support you while you do this call, and
I'm like, still not really processing why am I shaking
from something something so much deeper? And even when I

(52:29):
called her, I said, please don't say anything. I don't
want him to get in trouble.

Speaker 6 (52:32):
You're protecting him.

Speaker 4 (52:34):
I was like, I like literally reverted back into childhood.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
I was like five years old, and I couldn't even
understand it. Like someone who feels confident, someone who feels empowered,
someone who I feel like I use my voice often.
In this moment, like all that shit went out the window.
I had just finished a two year course about fucking
trauma and sexual shit, and I could not even understand
while I was reacting this way.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
I didn't even realize.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
It was just something that immediately made me just say
I don't want to do it. And it took like
a lot to kind of start peeling back the layers
of why I reacted this way, why I allowed it
to happen, why I didn't just say, like, yo, what
are you doing? Like I didn't say any of these things,
and in fact, nobody did, even the wife who was

(53:18):
over in the corner peeping shit, because she also froze
because this was a bad situation. And even even I
didn't even think that in that situation because I'm a
grown ass adult, like I'm not in high school, I'm
not in college. This is like a post you know,
like an adult college essentially. I still felt so deeply
about this power dynamic that this was my teacher and

(53:41):
this administrator, like you know, this administration. I didn't want
to disappoint anyone, but it just it took me, like
it's that happened almost two years ago, a year and
a half ago, and it still weighs on me because
I wanted it to just go away. I wanted to
just be done with school, graduate, be happy, go into
this practice that I spent all the money in.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
But it's it.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Has lingered and lingered and lingered and lingered because I
didn't say anything. I had someone recently tell me, like
I'm going to that school, and I was like, okay,
you know, like should I say something? Is this going
to discredit like all the education that I got. Is
this going to like, you know, why didn't I do anything?

Speaker 4 (54:19):
But I'm like, this is.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
How deeply rooted this shit is because it doesn't like
you can be confident, you can be empowered, you can
have kids. All these things can happen, and you can
still become a victim because in the moment.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
You a lot of times revert. And we know, like
women are not trained in this.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
We're just now getting to a place where we can
have these conversations and be like this happened to me
and not feel like discarded, not feel worthless because of it,
and also know like this shit had nothing to do
with me, Like and it's and it's it's scary that
shit scared me. And there's been times in my adulthood,
like I said, these separate, you know, incidents where I'm like,

(54:56):
what the fuck who am I? And it makes me
realize there's something so much deeper, like that's like implanted
in me, like that this is how I react that
I literally check out of my body. And it happens
like in certain situations you'll notice like if you just
don't have any feeling at all, you go numb, it's
because you're checking out of your fucking body because that's

(55:16):
what's safe for you, and that's what's protected you. And
like it takes a lot of time to recon to
say like you're safe and you don't have to check out.
You can stay here and deal with these feelings. They're
not too big. But I just like, even in having
the reluctancy to even say it here, to the reluctancy

(55:40):
to say it to my man, the reluctancy like when
he got hype, I was like, Yo, calm down, this is.

Speaker 6 (55:44):
The first time you've talked about it.

Speaker 7 (55:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Yeah, this is the first time I ever talked down
on the air. And because I don't feel like, I
don't feel like they did enough. I don't feel I
feel like after I had conversations with the woman who
owned the school and I was like, this has caused
a lot of issues, and her response was this is good.
It was time to you know, look at these things.

(56:06):
Everyone should go to therapy. And that's crazy, you know
what I mean. And it made me realize like this
person who I was like looking at as like this
amazing person with all this information, which the information is great.
What I got from it was great. How the situation
was dealt with was not great. Like the whatever training
that you go into, like when you're dealing with women

(56:29):
in sex specifically, there's a lot of vulnerabilities there and
the people who are in that space need to be
trained times ten. And I don't think that was what
happened there, and it made me it let me, let
me leave with a lot of shame. I felt shame
that I didn't say anything. I didn't make a bigger
deal about it that I you know, until this day,
like I don't feel good about it. And it just

(56:52):
it just it just brought up a lot of things
that I didn't recognize were unresolved and that I hadn't
worked through. And like even right now, Erica and I
are in this or in a queen healing program with
Goddess Jesse at the Sweet Love Sanctuary, and you know,
we're going through like a twelve week process of different
different things are I mean, it's come up and you know,

(57:14):
recently in week six we were talking about are just
like our relationships with our pussies, experiences that we've had
using our pussies for bad and are like you know,
selling it for less than it's worth energetically and finance,
like just actually tangible money and just like have you
ever been in a situation like just posing questions that

(57:34):
I think in adulthood is women and just as people
who have experienced sexual assault, you you can just live
your life and move forward without ever having to think
about these things again. But when they're like questions are
posed to like have you ever been a situation where
you did something sexual you didn't want to do? Hell yeah,
for years and years and years, and even in my

(57:55):
college years, getting so drunk, getting blacked out, drunk because
I'm suppressing something, not because I'm partying and it's fun
because bitch, you're hurt, and not even connecting those two
things even to the point like recently, I was like
with my man and he choked me and like being
like on some kinki, like being intimate, and I I

(58:17):
passed out a little bit and when I woke up
it probably was like eight seconds. But I had a
moment where I was like where am I? And immediately
I felt shame. Immediately I felt guilt, I felt scared,
and it made me feel like I was in my
twenties blacked out somewhere with somebody I didn't know or recognize,
and I immediately started crying and he's like, whoa are

(58:38):
you okay? I was like no, and I couldn't even
say what was bothering?

Speaker 7 (58:41):
Me.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
I couldn't even put into words like that. This felt
eerily familiar. And just recognizing that, like by suppressing these
feelings by not ha like even in girlfriend's situations, like
has there been a time or someone's done something to
you that you haven't acknowledged it is this is where
h the healing happens. If we can't have the conversations,

(59:04):
we will never address the thing. And the thing about
Tantra is what I did learn is like that shit
doesn't go anywhere.

Speaker 4 (59:09):
It lives in your body. The body keeps the score.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
So even if you think you've forgotten, if you keep
sweeping shit under the carpet, bitch, it's going to come up.
And you know, obviously in this chapter of my life,
I've done a lot of work and I'm in a
really safe relationship and I can have these conversations. And
even then, I recognize when I have memories come up
and I'm not ready to talk about them, and I
leave them there until I'm ready to revisit them, Okay,

(59:34):
And like it is a it's a process, and I
just I know that there are so many women who
have experienced shit like this, and you're listening and you're like, damn,
I wanted to leave that there, and I'm encouraging you
to like look at it, you know, like go on
your body and find where that memory lives and kind
of trace that thread, because I think a lot of
us think that we can cut it and you can't.

(59:56):
It lives like those those things live and when you
give birth, you know, like epigenetics, And I'm thinking of
us all as black women, you know. I was just
looking at something today about the vessel and how you know,
just like historically, when when you have all your value
and like historically our vessel, there's so much has been
put on the vessel, how we start to move in

(01:00:18):
that way? And for a long time, I was like,
I'm powerful. I could fuck over I want. I don't
give a fuck because I don't care, because it was
me trying to say that, like even if someone has
done something to me, now I'm I'm in control now
when I haven't been, I've just fucking suppressed and wilding
the fuck out and thinking that like just you know,
bearing it more and more and more and doing more

(01:00:39):
is just going to make it go away, and when
in fact, I'm just fucking burying myself deeper in the shit.

Speaker 6 (01:00:44):
But I'm just that makes you feel powerful still.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
No, No, yeah, Like I'm like I'm a kept woman,
Like I'm not like, of course I have whole tendencies.
I'm a very sexual person. Like I like my sexual part.
And I think that's another thing for women too, is
like we are innately sexual, we give birth, we create,
but it's been so demonized. So there's like this weird

(01:01:11):
we don't we're not in connection with it, but we're
being used for it, and so it's it's it's like
a oppressive.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
Energy inside of us.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
It's like I want to be sexual and I feel
I feel connected to my sensuality, but also I hate it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
There's so many women.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Who like completely suppress that part of them because it's
like if I don't give attention to anyone, if I
cover up, then maybe I'm no one's gonna see me,
maybe I won't be hurt again.

Speaker 4 (01:01:32):
But we all know that doesn't make a difference.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
I mean it goes both ways. There's that there's that woman,
and then there's the woman who's over using, using her
sexual proudness for protection, yeah, for protection, to forget to
feel powerful because she doesn't feel in control, but she
feels like, oh, I can control these niggas right here,
and they and I don't give a fuck about them.
So I'm I'm somehow in control when really you're not.

(01:01:55):
And I think, like, I like, it's just like such
a it's just a cycle that will continue and continue.
Like you said, like your body keeps the score. It
doesn't just leave, it stays. And I think too, as women,
we often downplay the trauma too, because it's like, oh,
and like I hear your story or I hear her story,
and I'm like, well, mine isn't that bad, So I

(01:02:15):
think it's so hot I think get raped. So maybe it's.

Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
Like I should I shouldn't take away the intention from
something that's actually a really bad abuse.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
Yeah, And and like yeah, and women historically we've done that.
I've done that a lot in my life, not just
even just like sexual assault, but just in life in general,
downplaying the things that have deeply affected me because it
wasn't it didn't feel substantial enough to the next person's story.
And so I think it's so important for us to
have these type of conversations so that we understand that, Okay, yes,

(01:02:44):
there is a spectrum. At the end of the day,
it's one thing, you know, like it's one thing, and
it's trauma, and it's hurt and it's pain, and the
beauty of all of it is that you can heal
from it. You can. You can't access it, you have
you have the power to access it, but you have
to you have to face it, you have to sit
with it. You have to say, oh my god, yeah,
these are big things, big feelings, and I'm ready to now,

(01:03:07):
like conquer it one thing at a time, though, because
it can feel totally overwhelming, We're like, where the fuck
do I even start, you know, And so I guess
my question for you is like where did you start?
Where did you start on.

Speaker 6 (01:03:19):
The healing journey? Here? For me, first acknowledging what happened,
you know, the acknowledgment of what happened, and finding people
that I could speak to that I trusted, where it
felt like a safe place for me. So when I
started speaking out, I mean I had best friends, friends,

(01:03:42):
boyfriend and listen to me, family members that didn't want
to support and so I had to go and look.
Where I went was to other survivors, usually of the
same abuser or just anyone who's survivors, which is why
the podcast came about. But I wanted to just speak
to women who under stood what I had gone through
then weren't going to judge because I found as I

(01:04:05):
was speaking out, oh, just everyone just judges you so much,
like you're the bad person, or you stayed in an
abusive relationship, or why did you do that, and just
everything that just makes you just want to clam up
and not talk about it, your abuse. So but I
was ready to because I'm just because you know, it
was in the news and everything, and the survivors were
speaking out and I knew that I had a very

(01:04:25):
similar story. So I connected with other survivors. Many of
them started a group chat. We started speaking on the
phone for hours, and I lost a lot of some
of my family and some friends, you know, through through
this journey, and to me, that was the hardest part

(01:04:46):
of just not having your closest family and friends really
support you. That was hard for me. But I you know,
as you do a podcast, you meet so many wonderful
people and you build all these new friendships. So that's
been really helpful for me the healing journey. That and
also EMDR therapy. I was telling you before, EMDR therapy
is just has changed my life. So it's a type

(01:05:08):
of therapy. It's not just talking. You use rapid eye movement,
so there's flashlights where your eyes are moving back and
forth like this, back and forth, and it's going into
certain parts of your memory. And you have pulse pulsators
in your hand going back and forth, and you have
the music going back and forth. There's all these different things,
and it really makes you go back into suppressed thoughts

(01:05:30):
and memories that you kind of don't want to talk
about or think about, or that you're just literally suppressing.
It means that you don't want anything to do with
it anymore. But as you both were saying, when you
go through this whole healing journey, it's like you have
to really own it, the good, bad, the ugly. You
really have to own what you went through and talk
about it and then you can finally move into healing

(01:05:53):
from it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:05:54):
But I mean, for so many years I just suppressed
it and didn't think about it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
When those feelings come up, I'm thinking because for me,
my memory is something that I'm always really insecure about,
Like I feel so worried about when I'm getting old
and I'm like, am I going to remember my life?
I have a really hard time remembering things. And as
I've been in this work with Goddess Jesse in the
Queen Healing Circle, I've just realized that I think so

(01:06:22):
much of my suppression is because as a child, I
was going through different traumatic events and I didn't know
where to put them, and so I put everything in
one box. And so now I put everything in one box.
Even the good shit is in one box. Like I
can't even remember good memories. They're all in one box,
and they're just kind of like it's like this foggy
glass where it's like I can see it, but I

(01:06:42):
can't really like see the detail that. And so through meditation,
through a lot of generational healing, ancestral healing, it's there's
little things that are starting. Even me interviewing my family
this week, part is part of my process of like
trying to like access things and remember things. But em

(01:07:04):
you said, what's called EMDR. I was like that sounds
really interesting, and I'm wondering, like I would work for you,
like where where the fuck are these memories?

Speaker 6 (01:07:12):
Now? That I would work for you? Because for me,
I didn't have those memories either. You didn't know they
can't they pressed them.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
They literally came from that. Interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:07:19):
Interesting, I have a question about ADMR.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
I know it's like it has like like a lot
of relation to like hypno, but I'm always confused about
like are you are they like the therapist is like
telling you to bring up the stories and repeat them
back and like kind of go there so you can
tell them in deep at detail. And then is there
a part where there are you read telling this like

(01:07:42):
after you say it a lot of times? Are you
then retelling the story in a way that is something
you can sit with?

Speaker 6 (01:07:48):
Well, he doesn't, He doesn't ask me any questions. Okay,
So I just come in every week because of the podcast.
I do it twice a week to deal with the
trauma that brings in problem right from my guests. But
for me, I just talk about my day, what's been
going on, or what's happened that week, and then from
that trauma from the past is going to show up
daily or weekly, monthly. So as you're talking about things

(01:08:11):
in he'll say, Okay, tell me more about that. You'll
just talk a little bit more. But why did you
do that if you go on if you're dating or
something with your husband or whatever, and he just dives
into that a little bit deeper with you, and then
you know, you can start the music, start the polls,
and then you doing the rapid eye movement and then
you go deeper into some of those memories. So it's

(01:08:31):
just bringing stuff up as you bring it up.

Speaker 4 (01:08:33):
It's like it kind of creates the kind of root
back to where it's rooted to.

Speaker 6 (01:08:37):
Yeah, it's not the normal therapy where they're asking you
questions or whatever. It's like they wait until your talk
and he will sit there, minutes will go by until
you start talking because it's all about you. And so yeah,
so I would just so many things. I mean, I've
been doing it for a year now and it's incredible
because not only as you go through this healing process.
I just I used to be like against therapy, like

(01:08:59):
I don't need that because they used to do talk
therapy for years and did nothing for me. Like I
almost would like not want to.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
Go alternative therapy is like a lot of times you
need something more than just talking.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Because I needed it.

Speaker 6 (01:09:11):
I needed something deeper.

Speaker 4 (01:09:12):
Because we're trained to just talk in a way that
suppresses what like you don't tell the truth, yeah, or
you just dance around the same because I don't want
to talk about that ship.

Speaker 6 (01:09:22):
Exactly, you dance around it. And plus plus I alrea't
even remember what happened about certain situations, right, But this
this kind of memory, it's like he waits until you
talk about Then it's like he knows exactly where to
dig into, dig into a little bit, dig into a
little bit more. A lot of times I'll be in
there for an hour and a half, two hours and
come out and for days be so angry because I
brought up things that I don't want I didn't want

(01:09:43):
to think about that really like and also a lot
of times you don't want to have memories about certain
people in your life that you think are good in
your life.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
You've made You've made a story about them, so you've
made so they can exist there. And so it's like
if I don't, if I don't want to, if I
don't want to interrupt the story I've been telling myself exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
Then I just did. I just don't.

Speaker 6 (01:10:03):
We're all telling the same story all the time. It's
not always true we're telling so yeah, so it goes
into those memories over and over and over again until
I can finally start healing them, owning it, you know,
and then pushing putting that in a safe place.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
So bringing up like just weekly daily things, and then
how do they relate to these deep suppressed memories, Because.

Speaker 6 (01:10:23):
It could just be something you're talking about with your daughter,
some advice you gave her. Where did that come from?
Let's talk more about that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
That's so interesting because even yesterday and I was sharing
with you what she told me about the girl at
school liking girls, I to, you know, at first, I
was like, you know, it's not a big deal. I
was like, except if someone tries to make you do
something you don't want to do. And in that moment,
it made me think about should I do that I
didn't want to do as a kid at being around
her age, and I'm like like, for a brief moment
that went there, but then I just like, I don't

(01:10:50):
want to make it too heavy, and just like, yeah,
just you know, I always do what you want to do.

Speaker 6 (01:10:54):
But there's there's that's important to say.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
We forget that on a regular, daily, weekly basis, there
are probably things that come up that will trigger those
memories briefly, but if you are so busy suppressing them
and covering them, you're gonna you're gonna breeze right past them, hit.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
The less instead of the right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Yeah. And the thing about suppression about what you were saying.
And I've said this before, and I truly believe this
because I feel like me and Eric have both experienced
this in this like peak of good moms, like experiencing
all these new things together and like, you know, accomplishing
all these amazing things together. I feel like when you
have things that happen to you that are really bad
that you don't go into, when things that happen to

(01:11:32):
you that are really good, your body loses the ability
to react in any in any way that's too high,
too sad, too traumatic, or too happy. So you're kind
of always at like this this middle neutral fuel because
you're you've trained yourself to suppress big emotions, and so
what happens is like you're like, I'm so happy, and

(01:11:54):
then you're like, but I don't know why I can't
really feel. It's because when things that happen that are true,
you don't feel things that what happened that are really
good you also won't feel and so there's like a
you have to give yourself permission to like constantly feel
like well, yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:12:09):
And crying is so important. Actually getting those tears outs
when you kind of release is super important. You ever
talk to people are like, I've never cried, Well that
was me. I hadn't cried for like twenty years. Wow,
and thought of like those kinds of things that would
make me cry. And then after going through emdr By,
I cry all the time. You guys, you guys, I'm
always backed yeah, and I'm always like on this sensitive thing.

(01:12:30):
I can feel when like I'm getting sensitive.

Speaker 4 (01:12:32):
Because you're in touch with your body, guper.

Speaker 6 (01:12:34):
In touch now, and then when you're super in touch
with your body, then you can have those boundaries right
when you're you know.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
Right because you actually know what your body does doesn't want,
and what it actually does want. I know you're a
mother of three boys. How has this, like, I guess, honesty,
this unearthing. Have you discussed it with them? Like, I
mean I'm assuming you have because they're a little bit older.

Speaker 6 (01:12:58):
Yeah, what was that conversation? Like from the start I
always told them when I went to speak or was
interviewed for a documentary. I would tell them what it
was for. Well, like you said, they're older. So I
have teenagers now, but at first they were under eight
or something, I probably wouldn't have said something like that,
but as they were getting older, I've always been that
type of mom where I just want them to know.

(01:13:18):
I don't like to sugarcoat anything, and I don't do
the birds and the bees. Have you asked me about sex,
I'm telling you exactly what it is, right, and I
just want to be super honest about things because that's
the way the world is. You don't want to sugarcoat
things too much for kids because you want to. It's
a harsh world and not everybody's good out there, so
you need to let them know. From when they're little,

(01:13:40):
you know, little by little you know, but what to
really expect out of life. So when I told them
and using your stuff that you've gone through as an example,
so as they're becoming teenagers and speaking out about sexual
assault and things that I went through when I was
in my early twenties and even teens, just being honest

(01:14:01):
about that so they learn from your mistakes and learn
from things that you've gone through and especially with boys
and girls, they're thinking about how when they get in
a certain situation, they're like, oh, my mom went through this,
or mom taught me about this in a roundabout way
instead of like don't do this or you know, it's
more like, Okay, my mom went through this, so I understand.
So they've been my biggest supporters. They've been so awesome

(01:14:24):
and just I mean, I couldn't have done it without him,
to be really honest, without their support, because they're basically
all I had. You know, when I was speaking out,
like I said, I had friends and family, they just
dropped off the boyfriend. During that time, I was ready
to start speaking out about what I went through with
the Jeffrey Epstein, which was like this crazy story, and
he just literally just looked at me. I was like,

(01:14:45):
I don't want to hear about it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:47):
Wow, now I don't want to hear about it.

Speaker 6 (01:14:49):
I don't want to hear about it. Like I see
later on told me, oh, I thought he was like
a playboy and maybe you have this like sugar daddy
relationship Like no, well, and are nothing to do with it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:58):
But are you listening to me?

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
Are you now?

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
You just drew a picture that you wanted to that
you that was like for him, I guess so.

Speaker 6 (01:15:05):
I mean, I realized in that moment the relationship that
I have with him for those three years wasn't even
a relationship. He never even asked me anything about myself ever,
knew nothing about me, So why would he want to
know something deeper about me?

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
Right?

Speaker 7 (01:15:17):
Right?

Speaker 6 (01:15:17):
It was a very relationship, shallow surfacy relationship when I
realized I was probably just an object to him at
that point, didn't really want to get to know me.
And so when you start speaking out about these kind
of things, like you said, when you open up a
lot of you know, kind of who your real true
friends are at them moment. Yeah, yeah, it's not it's

(01:15:38):
not easy to speak out.

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
No, I think you're so incredibly brave, especially because of
I guess the power that your abuser yields and the
people that he's connected with, who are I'm sure quivering
in their boots still in this moment and trying to
see how much does this person know? Who did he tell? You? Know,
there's a lot of you're mangering that I'm sure I

(01:16:01):
don't know if you've experienced that that want to silence
women like you. So I commend you for continuing, continuing,
and not only just continuing, like creating a platform where
people can share their stories. If you guys haven't checked
out her podcast, make sure you go check out from
now on pod. It's such a powerful place for people,

(01:16:24):
especially who have experienced any sort of sexual assault or
just want information on how to be able to identify it,
protect themselves, protect your kids. I think that it starts
so young, and it starts so like it's like these
little micro aggressions that happen, and then Sunday one day
you wake up and you're like, what the fuck? How
did I get here? And I think that it's important

(01:16:48):
for us to educate ourselves our boys too. That's why
I'm really happy to hear how supportive your sons are,
because like the boys, like, they really need to understand
how much power they have in that dynamic, the masculine
over the feminine in that.

Speaker 6 (01:17:01):
Way, even just knowing consent and.

Speaker 1 (01:17:04):
Consent, yes, the asking the consent piece is.

Speaker 6 (01:17:08):
Always because a lot of times it's just by educating
our kids you can change so many things that happened
to women and young women. Just the consent part if
a woman's clammed up like this, she's probably not into you.
Maybe even if a woman needs to be touching you,
into instigating, starting things, then she's into you. But if
a woman's all clammed up like this, maybe you should stop. Yeah,

(01:17:29):
she's uncomfortable. I just can't say so.

Speaker 1 (01:17:31):
Yeah, and that consent isn't just the warble, no, yeah,
really being able to Yeah, read the room, read body language,
and get get your desires out of the fucking way,
because I think that's what a lot of times what
happens is like okay, but like I really want to
do this right now, like she'll enjoy it once we
get in there, you know, and it's just it's really unfortunate.

(01:17:51):
So yeah, thank you. Do you have an affirmation that
you can share with our audience.

Speaker 6 (01:17:58):
Well, I do personal my personal affirmations. I don't know
if it'll work for everybody, but for me, I like
the sound of my name when I say affirmations because
when someone says it to me, it does something for
me because I grew up like not really hearing my
name in a loving way. It was only like Lisa
and Phillips, you know, when you're like you're in trouble,

(01:18:19):
so I always say what I want to hear, what
I want other people to say to me that don't right.
And I'm proud of you, Lisa.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
I'm proud of you, Lisa. I'm proud of you.

Speaker 6 (01:18:33):
Yes, I'm proud of you. And also you're worthy of
everything that you want. You're worthy of everything you want.

Speaker 4 (01:18:39):
You're worth everything that you want me, and you're very powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:18:43):
You're very powerful.

Speaker 6 (01:18:46):
Yeah. So those are the three that I say I'm
a most often to myself. Yeah, or even sometimes like
under my breath, like so someone can't hear me and
I'm walking through like home goods or something. But if
you sometimes you catch yourself in a mirror, sometimes you
just want to say that, remind yourself, you know, because
it's throughout the day. It's not always just like in
the morning in the mirror.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
No, I like the name, like, I like personalizing it
for you because sometimes you needs to not be general.

Speaker 4 (01:19:11):
You need to know it's for you.

Speaker 6 (01:19:12):
A lot of times when you personalize it, you get
the motions come up.

Speaker 1 (01:19:15):
It shift, it shifts the s energy.

Speaker 4 (01:19:17):
You're not just saying a thing, You're saying it to you.

Speaker 1 (01:19:19):
I like that, Yeah, me too. Well, before we get
out of here. I would love if you pulled a
card for Tarot time.

Speaker 5 (01:19:26):
Oh boy, the Emperor, Emperor.

Speaker 6 (01:19:44):
It already sounds good.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
Yeah, he looks powerful. He looks like he's yielding his
power for good, it seems the Emperor, and shout out
to bitty terror. Not terror, it's a bitty terror. It's
black owned tarot, female founded, Mama owned tarot brand. So
make sure you check out what should I just call

(01:20:09):
them mahogany. I call mahogany.

Speaker 2 (01:20:12):
Shout out to Biddy who we always read the definition
to mahogany is what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
The Emperor as the father figure of the Tarot deck.
The Emperor suggests that you are adopting this fatherly role,
regardless of whether you're male or female, providing for your family,
protecting and defending your loved ones, or yourself. You may
be the breadwinner or the rock for those who rely
on your stability and security. Similarly, the Emperor represents a
powerful leader who demands respect and authority. Status, power and

(01:20:47):
recognition are essential to you, and you are most comfortable
in leadership role where you can command and direct others.
As a leader, you rule with a firm but fair hand.
You have a clear vision of what you want to create,
and you organize those around you to manifest your goal.
You listen to the advice of others, but you prefer
to have the final say. Conflict doesn't scare you, and

(01:21:07):
you won't hesitate to use your power to protect those
you care about, and in return, those people will repay
you with the.

Speaker 1 (01:21:14):
Loyalty and respect you deserve.

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
Claim your authority as leader and influencer, and don't let
others put you down. It reflects a system bound by
rules and regulations. You create law and order by applying
principles or guidelines to a specific situation. Create calm out
of chaos by breaking down any problems into its parts
and then mapping out the actions you need to take

(01:21:38):
to resolve it. Be systematic, strategic, and highly organized in
your approach, and stick to your plan until the end.

Speaker 1 (01:21:45):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (01:21:46):
I love that seeing everything out to the end is
so important.

Speaker 2 (01:21:51):
It says through the course of your life you have
gained valuable wisdom and life experience, and now you enjoy
offering guidance, advice and direction to someone who might benefit
from it.

Speaker 6 (01:22:00):
I do.

Speaker 2 (01:22:00):
Maybe a teacher, coach, boss, or a good friend who
likes to take what you have learned and pass it
on to others so they can be wise and as
powerful as you.

Speaker 6 (01:22:08):
Wow, I love that I picked a good card and
I had been the breadwinner for my kids. I've raised
my kids all by myself.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
It picked you, baby boys.

Speaker 6 (01:22:16):
Yeah, no, that's not easy.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
Yeah, for real And honestly, like I want to say
to you, like, yes, I'm in awe of the work
that you've done, and like the pivot that you've taken
and that you said, shit's going to shift and I'm
going to say what I need to say and taking
your power back.

Speaker 4 (01:22:31):
And also just like I think this.

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
I've been saying this for a while, but I really
genuinely believe like this is the resurrection of the feminine
of the women. I think there is like a power
that we're getting back right now universally, and I think
that it's time.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
It's time.

Speaker 2 (01:22:46):
I think a lot of us have suffered at the
hands of the patriarchy, and I think we're all like
getting our voice back and like getting on our feet.
And like I think the men that have thrived and
you know from the abuse of women, it's over or
free bitches. Ooh, I like that, and I think like
it is. It's over, free bitches for real, Like brace

(01:23:07):
ourselves because when like when as we come back into
our power, as we're resurrecting, we're coming back from the ashes,
like it's about, it's going to be impossible for you
to hurt us. It's going to be impossible because we're
here together, because we're in community, because we're using our voice,
and because this is what we're supposed to do historically anyway,
and now that we're coming back into that power, like

(01:23:28):
it's done.

Speaker 6 (01:23:31):
Yeah, stop sharing.

Speaker 1 (01:23:33):
Yeah. And I want to say to you, Mila, I'm
really proud of you for sharing this your testimony and
your story because I know this is something that you've
been kind of suffering and silent, not kind of you've
been suffering with for a while now. And so I'm
really proud of you for feeling brave enough to share
share that.

Speaker 6 (01:23:51):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
So I love you. Thank you. I love you too. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:23:54):
How do you feel after sharing that?

Speaker 2 (01:23:56):
I feel good. I feel like it's just the beginning.
Like I have to, like, you know, like work through
all the things. And I'm still working through it, you know.
I and I you know, I just I want everyone
else listening to know that this kind of shit takes time,
and it's not like an overnight it's two years. Yeah, years,
Like it's it's a commitment to shift, and it's a
commitment to doing things differently. And if you've done things

(01:24:17):
a certain way, it's going to take time to uncover
all of those like those habits. And you know, we're
not no one's perfect or experts at healing or exactly
my healing looks different from yours and yours and yours,
And just like I really want to encourage everyone to
just stay stick the course and even when it gets

(01:24:37):
difficult and you know, and take breaks, rest, but then
go back to it and understand that like that's where
the power lies. Look at Lisa, you know, like literally
your power lives with spreading the word about the things
that you've experienced so that other people feel empowered to
do the same thing.

Speaker 6 (01:24:52):
Right, really good, Yes, Lisa works.

Speaker 1 (01:25:00):
Can our audience find you?

Speaker 6 (01:25:02):
Let's see here. So I'm on Instagram. I am Lisa Phillips. Also,
my podcast from No One is on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
Okay, yeah, make sure you go tap into Lisa's podcast
and yeah, just I think it's such an important space.
If you created, like I said, so, thank you. Thank
you for the work that you're doing. You guys know
where to find us, or if you don't, make sure
you go follow us on Instagram at Good Mom's Underscore
Bad Choices. Make sure that you tap into our retreats.

(01:25:30):
We have the Good Vibe Retreat coming up the summer.
We have a couple's retreat in June. We have two
women's retreats in July and August. And rate and review
this episode. If you haven't rateed and review this episode,
please please do. It really makes the difference for us.
We've been at this for seven years and we should
have a lot more reviews on Apple. I'm just going
to subscribe. Review.

Speaker 4 (01:25:49):
You get this shit for free.

Speaker 2 (01:25:50):
That's pay in subscriptions and comments, and even if you
hate it, say that shit. But just whatever you do
before you fucking hang up this phone after we've given
you two hours of our life, subscribe, hit a comment
and thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:26:04):
Appreciate it, and make sure you check out our merch our.
I don't even like calling emrch It's our clothing line
designs on our website. Good Momsbad Choices dot com. If
you're not a patron yet, what are you doing? Join Patreon.
You get all of our YouTube episodes early. You get
everything early, and on top of that, you get bonus
episodes and access to our Discord, which is direct access

(01:26:27):
to us really in our entire community, where we're talking
even more candidly than on Instagram, because Instagram are the ops.

Speaker 2 (01:26:36):
And find a friend, find a friend in the discord
in your city. If you want your erk to your Amila,
go on Patreon. I mean, go on Patreon to get
in discord and find people in your city, because I
know moms get lonely, and you know women get lonely.
And we have a really beautiful I feel like a
tribe of come as you are. It's a judgment free
zone whoever you are. It's like a place, a safe

(01:26:57):
space to be who you are and you find a
friend who's going to accept you as is. That's one
thing I really love about our community. It's like free
and loving and we offer support just for free.

Speaker 4 (01:27:06):
So come in like vent and find a friend.

Speaker 1 (01:27:09):
Yes, it's ten dollars a month and it's worth every
fucking penny. So Patreon dot com slash good mom's bad choices,
and we see this week good hey pleasing?

Speaker 7 (01:27:19):
Yeah, I'm living so good.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
Can't you tell?

Speaker 7 (01:27:22):
I went through a drought, that's until I found a
well maym have been known Earth? I used to be
broken tail, now got the blues dancing might Beyonce Jasell
throat shot or popping his cow wearing our voices. Patriarchy
kept it in the box. To what'spois? Women put the
pee and powers, so what's pointless?

Speaker 1 (01:27:38):
They want me to be good?

Speaker 6 (01:27:39):
So I made bad choices.

Speaker 7 (01:27:40):
Bad mom, not a bad mom, but a bad mom.
Gitter's in, put cannabis in their bath, bon walk in
bosses cap and I blew his.

Speaker 1 (01:27:48):
Cat balls hot dog. Now I'm immune to the cat
called Herbie.

Speaker 7 (01:27:51):
And no waisted straight to win like a dollar sign. Mother,
rent the lover when so Woden's like a water someone
where you're rent the winter resentual will win the summer
time I do it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
Oh, they know one that needs to run it by

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Hosts And Creators

Erica Dickerson

Jamilah Mapp

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Surviving Jeffrey Epstein feat. Lisa Phillips