September 22, 2025 • 58 mins
This week, Granger and AntMan wrestle with a hard question: where is God when tragedy strikes? The conversation centers on the recent shooting of Charlie Kirk and how moments like this stir up doubts and fears. They look to Scripture for examples of suffering and persecution, and talk honestly about why God allows evil in a broken world.
Granger shares how our response to pain reveals what we truly believe about God’s character. AntMan adds perspective on how easy it is to seek quick answers, but how the Bible calls us to trust even when life doesn’t make sense. Together, they remind listeners that God has not abandoned us, even in times of chaos.
The episode is both sobering and hopeful, pointing us back to the truth that faith is not about avoiding hardship but about holding on to Christ when everything else feels uncertain.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good email came in, and I think it's one of
these questions that we could hear and we could think
that maybe it's a little immature, maybe it's a little stupid,
but in the back of our minds, all of us
want it answered. And it could apply this to any
kind of evil or suffering. And the question is this
specifically in this context, where was God when Charlie Kirk
(00:22):
got assassinated? Let's unpack this.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
On this episode.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Back on the podcast, ant Man the most consistent guest
I have these days sometimes. And I said that on
purpose because sometimes people say you and your co host,
well maybe, and then I thought, maybe I don't say
his name enough. The ant Man is with me.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
And then that feels weird, Why are you call him that?
Then he goes, yeah, your name's Anthon. But that's no fun,
no it no, that's good. You always felt because it
started in radio started and Anthony feels like a mouthful
to say on the radio.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Oh okay, I got it.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
And once my very first job, I was a morning
show producer in the morning show host just started calling
me aunt man.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I was like, that's way easier to say.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, I like it up using it so here we
are discussing another topic, another category of the same topic,
I should say, And the reason I said it because
we covered on U podcast. We covered it on the
Smiths of course extensively on social media. But we're back
to these Charlie Kirk. Thanks, you got an email, and
(01:47):
that's that's why we're going to address this. Yes, and
I think it's important, So let's dive into this.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
It's been a big been a big week week and
a half since, yeah, and so a lot of questions.
But I thought, and this is so simple and it
fits kind of how we do the podcast. Is said,
I've got a question for you, Granger that's been weighing
on me. Where was God when Charlie Kirk got shot.
It's hard to make sense of something like this, and
(02:14):
I'd love to hear your perspective on how we can
trust God in moments it feels so dark.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Thanks, Brian.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, and totally normal question to think. And it's funny
because we're doing a show in this today and it's
a question that probably I'm assuming most people they think
about it, but they don't want to ask it because
it kind of sounds stupid. Maybe maybe there's an obvious answer,
(02:44):
and so I don't I don't really want to say
it out loud, but we'll cover it here because we've
dealt with this in other ways. And in one way
we dealt with it, you and I on this show
for Trump, Yes, the opposite we said did God save Trump?
I think that was the title of that podcast. Yeah, yeah,
(03:06):
And and we made the argument that yes, he did
save Trump. And then the implication of that was, how
do we know that? Because he's alive and God does
all things, not necessarily for an individual, you know, not
not He didn't intervene in the Trump assassination for because
(03:31):
of a he was caught off guard. I should say
it that way, because he was suddenly caught off guard
and he thought, ooops, I gotta kind of straighten things out.
God doesn't operate that way. And so let's flip it
before we dive into all this. So let's flip and
say did God not save Charlie Kirk? And we're talking physically,
(03:51):
not not spiritually, we would say no, he didn't.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
He didn't.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
How do we know because he died? Yeah, you know
what I mean? The first first thing we think of
when we think and and I have done. I have
done so much thinking on this subject and for so long,
you know, after you know, somebody like me that has
(04:18):
held my dead boy in my arms and looked into
the the open eyes of my dead three year old son,
you know, I have felt and still can't feel that
cold skin and fe the the heaviness of a dead
(04:42):
body when it's when it does, when it has no
nothing's working, you know, there's no muscle, and so it's
just limp. Yet heavy is so unhumanlike even when we
sleep we have some kind of rigidity, you know, like,
but when you're dead like that, you're just loose. It
(05:03):
doesn't feel human. It feels like a doll. Those kind
of memories for me have have screamed out that kind
of question, where was God?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
You know?
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And early on in my grief journey after River, as
I was reading through the Bible, started highlighting things and
no one was discipling me at the time, which is unfortunate.
But as I was reading through the Bible, I would
see things that go, WHOA, that's interesting to underline something here, Yeah,
(05:45):
highlight something here, and the things I was doing and
then I was transferring that and I was taking either
taking screenshots of it or writing into my notes, and
I was obsessed with this idea that it appeared to
be God was doing it all. There was no accidents.
Suddenly I realized that that word needs to be out
(06:07):
of my vocabulary. There are no accidents. God does it.
God kills, God makes alive. The Book of Deuteronomy says,
I kill, I make a live, I hurt, I heal.
You know he says these things I give, I take away,
I give I take away. We look in the Book
of Job. Satan acts in the Book of Job. But
(06:30):
it's God who gives Satan permission starts seeing these things
like whoa Isaiah forty five seven. God forms light and
creates calamity that some translations render calamity or destruction. It's
God who does it, whether by allowing removing his hand.
(06:52):
Some some theologians looked have looked at it as when
this kind of thing happens, when God lets it go,
Because the now natural order of the universe is to
spin off into chaos. Order comes from God. God's hand
on it, it remains in order. He starts lifting his
hand away, it starts to spin in chaos. Sometimes that's
a result of rebellion or sin. We see that throughout
(07:15):
the Bible. Sometimes it's just part of a sovereign plan.
Before we go any further. The height of this is
the Cross of Christ. This is the pinnacle of this
idea because here's what we know. God sin his only
son into the world because man could not. When I
(07:36):
say man, I mean mankind, I mean humankind, man and women.
That's what I mean to say. I want to say
this is about men. God sends his only son to
redeem man for our rebellion against him. Because we've trusted ourselves.
We've trusted our own techniques or our own talents, our
(07:59):
own diplomas, or our own insurance policy, or a separate
God of some kind, or idolized something, or idolized a
woman or a child, or a political speaker, or a
country or a Lamborghini, you know, whatever it might be.
(08:19):
We can make idols out of anything. Ministry, we make
idols out of ministry or podcast, you know. But through
all this, God sends his son to redeem us. He
sends his perfect son, Jesus into the world to live
the perfect life that we never could, so that he
(08:41):
could become the substitute for us. I'll explain that in
a second. But this is the pinnacle because what happens.
What happens when God does that, we kill him. We
murder him on the cross, We reject the God's messenger
to us, God's savior that he has sent us. We
(09:01):
murder him. And I say we because we we should
rightly say we. I mean, it was the Jewish leaders
at the time, the Romans carried it out, but essentially
it was me, you know, because I know my heart.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
It's human kind, it's humankind.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah. So but here's here's the catch. Here's here's my
point of this. But God planned that God planned the death,
the murder of his only son, so that you know,
the famous John three sixteen, so that we could be saved,
(09:38):
so that whoever believes in him would never perish but
receive eternal life. Right. So, the the the idea here
is that we are on death row. I've said this
story a thousand times to people. We're on death row.
And I said it just yesterday to a guy try
(10:00):
to explain the substitution of Jesus. Yeah, you're on death
row for committing a crime against the highest office. Well,
what do you mean by that? I said, well, say
you punch me. If you punched me right now, it
would hurt. I would be mad at you. Maybe some
people around here would question what's going on with you too,
(10:21):
But that's about it. But if I called the police
and they came here because I wanted to press charges,
and you punch one of the police officers the same punch,
You're now in a lot more trouble. And then you
go to court because of that punch, and you punch
the judge the same punch, the same intensity in your fist.
(10:42):
You're now in a lot more trouble than the original
punch for just me. And then you go and you punch,
you break out, and you punch a Texas legislator. You're
a lot more trouble. What if it got all the
way up to the Supreme Court and you punch a
Supreme Court judge, you were in a lot of trouble,
same punch. What about the President of the United States,
you punch him, You're you're in a lot I mean,
(11:04):
you're you're cooked. You know, well, we have committed a
crime against the highest office, same crime. The level of
office matters, and the punishment for us is death. The
wages of sin, Paul writes in Romans is Death. So
we are on death row. It doesn't matter. Once we're
on death row. It doesn't matter what we do at
(11:25):
this point, if we how good a person we are. Hey, judge,
look i'm doing pretty good. I'm I'm doing good works.
What do you think. The judge goes, yeah, thank you
for that. But that's not getting you off death row.
You're not earning your way off this. You're already guilty.
This is where Jesus comes in. Jesus comes in to
to death row and says him and man him, he's mine.
(11:49):
I love him. Take me instead, take my life. Let
him go, set him free. And the judge goes, well,
that is a worthy substitution because you are this, this
is the you've upheld the law perfectly. So this is
a worthy change exchange, you know. So you're set free,
(12:10):
you get to go and in that in your freedom.
Now you look back on this moment of freedom that
you've been set free from death row, and now you
want to live a life that honors that. Yeah, you
want to live a life that glorifies that great exchange. Right.
So that's the gospel. And so when we look at
(12:30):
did God do it? Well, yeah, God does all these things,
and we have to trust that. Romans eight twenty eight
says that God works all things for good, even evil acts,
for those that love him and are called the court
in his purpose, even the evil thing.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
That's for all things, all things all. And I had
I've had a couple of preachers that would do this.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
They would highlight little words like that, but they had
so much power. And I don't think you understand. I
think we forget and go. Well, there's got to be
an exception. There's gotta be just I know, he said, all,
but what if I someone just hasn't brought up this yet.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Nope, all means all, Yes, no exception.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
That's right. Can read you something from Travis? You remember?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Travis was on this podcast. Yeah we
went to We can say that we went to Israel
with him.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, we did. I've been all around the world with him.
He's a dear brother. And sometimes he sends me like
a devotional And this one was from Genesis, the famous
Jennison's Genesis fifty where but as for you, you met
evil against me, but God meant it for good. So
what you meant for evil? God meant for good. This
(13:49):
is a pretty popular Bible story of Joseph as he's
talking to his brothers that have betrayed him, an evil
betrayal so that he could be dead because they were
jealous of him. Right, and and Joseph is sold into
slavery and ends up in Egypt, a long way from Israel.
(14:12):
He ends up in Egypt. Well, we know later that
the story is that the people of Israel grow from
that in Egypt and then are delivered from Egypt back
into the Promised Land. But this whole thing God orchestrates,
this whole thing that Joseph didn't know that. Joseph didn't
have the complete text like we do today, but he
(14:33):
knew when he saw his brothers that what you meant
for evil, God meant for good. But there was both
of them, or a positive positive action of meaning you
meant it, yes, but God did too. You meant it
for bad, he meant it for good. So that means
God was involved in both sides of this. He has
(14:54):
to be. And when I say that a lot and this,
you know, where was God? With Charlie Kirk, I think
we'll get specifically to the where part. But right, Now
it's did he save him or did he did he
let him go? And the specific thing we need to
understand is that God wasn't reacting in the Genesis story
(15:15):
what you meant for evil. God then saw that evil
and he decided that he knew a workaround and he
could calculate a way to fix and mend what you meant. No,
that's not what it says. You meant it, and God
meant it. So that means God, God sent Joseph into
(15:35):
slavery for to be left for death, to go to
Egypt and go through all that suffering for years he
was in prison there in Egypt. Why God meant it?
Why for good? God meant it for good. So we
say the same thing about any evil, any evil. You
could say it, well, that evil man murdered Charlie Kirk. Yeah,
(16:00):
God minute for good. What Yeah, that's what the Bible says.
That's what the Bible says. So here's this thing from Travis.
He he said it's been said that every trial in
life either makes you better or bitter, depending on whether
you believe the truth of Romans eight twenty eight depends
(16:24):
on how you look at Romans eight twenty eight. Yeah, Yeah,
for God's working all things for good. All things. Either
you don't look at that way, If you don't see that,
then you're going to be bitter about the evil around
us in this world. If you do see it, you're
gonna go, Ah, we lament, we grieve, we suffer, but
(16:46):
with hope that God is doing this for good, you know,
so because of that we could rejoice in our sufferings.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
The Bible says, there's a good illustration that I see
on pop up on facebok, book or wherever from time
to time, and it's two guys that are on the
same train.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
One guy.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
So think about this, the train being the circumstance. One
guy's looking out the window on one side and sees
nothing but the side of a mountain and it's dark
and it's black, right, And the other guy's looking out
the other window and sees nothing but the valley and
the sun and the trees and the flowers and how
beautiful everything is. Same circumstance, same place, different viewpoints. So
(17:27):
if you're looking I mean, if you're looking at this
or you're looking at a circuit, it doesn't have to
be just what we're currently going through with the attention
on the death of Charlie. It can be a death
of somebody in your family, or a dire circumstance you're
having health wise, or anything you're in the middle of
the same circumstance. Which side of the window are you
(17:48):
looking at it? And it's not always easy. I do
understand that. And we've all been through something. If you're
looking at if you're looking at something that seems so
so dark, turn around for a second and look at
another perspective, because it's there. Because it says right there,
and it says right here in his word, that was there.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
That And that's the point, and that's the good point
you're you're making, is that that we're not talking about
just be a glass half full type guy. No, you
just have a positive outlook. See, there's always good in everything.
There's a silver lining. By no means are we saying that.
We're so we're grounding that that silver lining in truth
(18:31):
that we're reading. That's right that we know and we
read this, but also we could attest to it. We
can go, yeah, I've lived it. I held my dead son,
you know, I've been I've seen it looked in the
eyes of my dead son. So this is not just
a this is not just meaningless words. I'm saying here,
(18:51):
I've seen the truth that's grounded here. And then I've
lived and the Lord has delivered me through evil and
and seen by his grace the development of a good
plan that is still in the works for me, not
for him. It's finished for him and in the works
for me. But we should say God is not the
(19:13):
author of evil. We know that. James says that in
one thirteen. But he does govern. He governs all evil.
He has to because he's sovereign. That's what That's what
the word sovereign means. There's nothing outside of his control.
Nothing is surprising him or or catching him off guard.
So he's completely governed and nothing happens. Nothing. The bullet
(19:35):
that went through Trump, you know his ear if it did,
and the bullet that went through Charlie, none of it
was outside of the governance of God. And you know what, people,
that is not such a crazy idea, because they could
already tell we could you know, just a weak remove.
People could already go, well, this is causing something like
(19:58):
things are things are happening right now? Wait, we've seen
this from the beginning of time. We saw it with
Abel and Caine, like something happened with Abel, Like something
changed where people when when you see someone murdered like this,
like people, people start to rise up in a way
(20:23):
of courage and strength that wasn't there before.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
And if you think about a you think about a
seed for whatever, whether it's weed or if it's a
tree or something. We look at it as oh, that
the purpose of that seed is to grow me a tree.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
But think about if it seems a.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Little ridiculous to think this way, but go with me
for a second. If you're a bunch of seeds, you're like, well,
we're all seeds, but you're telling me I have to
be destroyed.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
In order for everything else to be good.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Like, yeah, that's the purpose of this. I know you
don't see it because you don't get to see the tree.
You don't get to see the fruit coming from that tree.
You don't get to see any of the good that
comes out of this because that part is gone for you.
But if you could look and see, this is all
going to be And that's where it's so hard as
(21:23):
humans to look and go How could a sovereign, loving
god allow things like this to happen to a son,
to a father who now leaves behind a wife and
two kids. And unfortunately, that right there, in one way
or the other, happens every single day. He's just high
profile and had a big voice and opened up a
(21:46):
lot of doors for a lot of people and what
have you. But that happens all the time, and we
wonder why, And we asked the question that this guy
asked us. Where was God when he got shot? Where
was God when my son died? Where was God when
I lost my job and my house and my wife
and my home and my.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Kids and what have you?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Well, if you could see the tree that comes out
of this of you being crushed and buried, you have
a different perspective and a different.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Outlook on all of it.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
It doesn't make it easy in the moment, but it
definitely gives a meaning to the reason for the suffering.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
That's such a good point. And I remember, you know,
after River, after we lost him, people were coming up
to me and saying things like, just want to let
you know, Grangeer, God had nothing to do with the
death of your son. And I know they're trying to
make me feel good, but I would walk away from
that going then where was he?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
You know?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
And I thought about that all the time, like what
did is did his godly alarm not go off? Or
the like did he miss did he missed the notification
that this was happening? If you say he had nothing
to do with it? And where was he? That's always
what that means. And that's when I started finding, you know,
as I'm reading through the Bible as a narrative, as
a as a peace that reveals who God is, I'm
(23:12):
like underlining that doesn't seem like he's ever aloof to anything.
He's always there, Yeah, and he's always working and it's
always part of a plan, and it's always far beyond
what we could imagine, i mean outside of time. And
so before before we get to it, well that's the why.
(23:32):
And then as we get into the where, we don't
go anywhere without saying, well, we see the pinnacle of
this at the Cross the Father God, the Father was there,
and the Spirit of God was there, and the Son
of God was there where at Calvary there who was
(23:53):
governing the universe? God was governing the universe. He was there.
An interesting thought about this I think about sometimes is
in mark mark third, mark mark four, and it's it
could be easily be missed. Sometimes we do miss it,
(24:16):
you know, we miss things all the time. That's why
we read the Bible, not one time, yeah, but yes,
because we see things like mark mark four thirty five.
This is the story of Jesus calms the storm. It
says on that day, when evening had come, he'd said
to them, the disciples, let us go to the other side,
(24:38):
talking about the Sea of Galilee. And you and I
have been out there, yeah, and leaving the crowd, they
took him with them. They took him with them in
the boat just as he was, and other boats were
with him. And a great wind storm arose, great big storm. Right,
this big storm is rolling on this lake. We saw
(25:00):
a big storm, very lake. Great windstorm arose and the
waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat
was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep
on the cushion. And they woke him and said, teacher,
do you not care that we are perishing? And he
woke and rebuked the wind and said, of the sea,
(25:21):
peace be still. And the wind ceased, and there was
a great calm, same word, great storm, great windstorm, great calm.
And then it continues. He said to them, why are
you so afraid? Have you still no faith? And they
were filled with here's that word again, great fear? What
(25:42):
your what's your translation say on those three words? Great windstorm,
great calm, great fear?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
This is completely calm?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
What does it say about windstorm?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Then the wind died down? It was completely caught.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
See was it say that on the windstorm? In verse
thirty seven?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
A furious squall came up?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Okay? And the ways that say in verse thirty.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Nine thirty he got up, and it says a was
completely calm the wind.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
That's the same word, but they're rendering it different in
that translation in the NV. But it's the same word.
And Jesus, but this is the craziest part of this
little little passage. And they were filled with filled with
great fear and said to one another, who then is
this that even the wind and the sea obey him?
(26:39):
They were more afraid of the man and the word
that he gave that the storm stopped. Let's think about
that just for one second, and I'll get to my point.
In any other situation, in any other religion or our
religious story, there would be a great storm, and then
the healer are the prophet, stops the storm and there's
(27:03):
a great relief. Not in the story, there's a great
storm and the prophet, the priest, the king stops the storm,
and the anxiety gets bigger because of the guy in
the boat with him, because I just realized, yeah, whoa, whoa,
this guy just there was a huge storm. This guy
(27:25):
says a word and it stops. And I thought, I
was afraid of the storm. What can this guy.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Do to me?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Some things, some things flash back in their mind. The
storm listened to him, and earlier today I did not.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Oh yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Earlier today I didn't And I should have.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
If that wind, the wind and the waves and the
storm listened to him, why didn't I earlier?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
So a man read verse thirty six again? Where was he?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
So? Leaving thirty six, leaving the crowd behind, and they
took him along.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Justice, I'm sorry, is that right? Thirty eight? Thirty eight, thirty.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Eight and thirty eight. Jesus was in the stern, sleeping
on a cushion.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Where was he?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, he was asleep.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
He was in the boat.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah, oh yeah, he was in the boat.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
He was right there in the boat. Where was he?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Where?
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Where was he? With Charlie? Right Where was he?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yep?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
He was right there, right there, He was right there.
Where was he for us? For Charlie's wife, Erica? Where
was he? He was right there? What about those these kids,
those beautiful kids, where was he? He was right there
(28:47):
with them, weeping over sin of this world. If you're
trying to get a gift for someone you think has everything,
how about a special video message from me. It's easy
to do. Go to cameo dot com slash Granger Smith
and you put in the prompt what you want me
(29:09):
to say. I get that message on my phone. I'll
say happy birthday, happy anniversary, whatever personalized message you want
me to say to whoever you want me to say
it to. I send it to you and you give
it to them. It's pretty cool. Go to cameo dot
com slash Granger Smith.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
It's easier I think sometimes for us as humans to
believe that he wasn't and missed it than it is
to believe that he was there and in your perspective,
did nothing.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
You said the keyword your perspective.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, because you don't see the full picture.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I mean, it really is is you know, is as
I've grown, the more I grow in my faith every day,
is that man, I really understand that his ways aren't
my ways because my ways are not they're not consistent,
they're not fruitful. So much of the time, just my
(30:06):
ways the way I want things to happen. Yeah, they're
quick now, they're self gratifying, and his ways are not
my ways. So the more I can understand that, the
more I can more I get that he was there
when that happened.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Because his ways aren't my ways. My ways would have
been well.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Well, then of course you just you bump the barrel
of that gun and it flies off somewhere so that
doesn't hit anybody, and we get a wake up call, right,
you get a Trump wake up call where it just
knicks your ear and go, hey, there is an enemy.
Didn't get it in today. It didn't get you today,
but he could. That would have been me. But I
(30:52):
didn't see the big picture and don't see the big picture.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And sometimes he does that. Yes, sometimes the absolute did it.
I think, Uh, I hate to even say it, but yeah,
we saw it with Trump. Yeah, you know, I'm not
trying to draw this in any kind of comparison. But
but think about James. Count it all joy, my brothers,
when when James, even when you meet trials of various kinds,
(31:19):
you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
Let steadfastess have its full effect, that you may be perfect, complete,
lacking in nothing. We must have trials, we must have it.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Start that over again.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
I was already in Peter, Sorry for you. I was
already in Peter. But thankfully it's only just one one
letter behind it.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Just the very beginning of that.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Oh well, I could say it by the top of
my head. Count it all joy? Count what count it
all joy? Yeah? Count it all joy.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
There's all again, Yeah, everything, no exceptions.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
And this is this is what Peter's going to say
about this. So there's you know, you and I were
talking before you hit record here that we could literally
turn every single page of the Bible.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, we could.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Turn every single page of the Bible and find suffering
and trials and redemption and joy and overcoming all throughout
and sovereignty. Where is God? Peter says it like this,
and the end of his first letter, humble yourselves, therefore,
(32:27):
under the mighty hand of God, that at the proper
time he may exalt you. Casting all there. It is
your anxieties on him because cares for you. Be sober minded,
be watchful your adversary. The devil prows around like a
roaring line, seeking someone to devour. Resist him. Firm in
your faith, knowing that the same kinds of sufferings are
(32:48):
being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. After you
have suffered a little while the God of all grace
has called you into his eternal glory in Christ, will
himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you because he's there. Literally,
(33:12):
the name, the name that we have of Christ, Emmanuel
is God with us.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
In the beginning, John starts his gospel with this beautiful
christology of in the beginning was the Word, and the
word was with God, and the word was God. He
was in the beginning with God. And then down to
verse fourteen, and the word became flesh and dwelt among
us literally literally means tabernacled or he made a tent.
(33:43):
He's going to stay in a tent with us, in
our camp. God of the universe is going to come
stay with us, not on some elite mountaintop but right
here in our camp, he is with us. Why well,
part of it is to experience our sufferings with us.
What a savior we have in Jesus that wants to
(34:06):
share in our sufferings with us and us in his
because ultimately we share in his sufferings and we're saved
that way. It's the death throw he comes, he says, Anthony,
He's mine. I love him. Take me. I want to
share death throw with him. I want to go to
death row and I want I want to stand in
(34:26):
his place. Take me, take my life, kill me. I
want to stand in his place and share in his
sufferings so that he could be free. What kind of
God's story is this? It's the only true God story?
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yea, yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Where are we?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Man?
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I'm like, I told you we were going to start
this podcast, and I was going to be all over
the map if I wasn't careful. But I think we've
been We have walked this path of the Christian response
to this ordeal. I think we've walked that pretty well.
We could do that again, but what where you know? Okay,
(35:12):
before we get into another we could get into another
rabbit hole, and I'm happy to do that. But let's
let me finish a thought on where was he, just
for the person's asking this question. Revelation eleven, verse fifteen.
(35:34):
This is John getting a revelation. Then the seventh Angel
blew as trumpet, and there was loud There were loud
voices in heaven saying the kingdom of the world has
become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he shall reign forever and ever. And the twenty
(35:57):
four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell
in the and worship God, saying, we give thanks to you, Lord,
God Almighty, who is and who was? For you have
taken your great power and begun to reign. The nation's raged.
But your wrath came in the time for the dead
to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets
and saints, for those for who fear your name, both
(36:20):
small and great. It just goes on and on, And
who where is he? He's on the throne. But here's
another image of where he is. He's on the throne.
You can't answer me that question without he's on the
throne reigning.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yes, he wasn't missing that day.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Yeah, he wasn't missing. He didn't call him sick that day.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
I think there are there are some also. I mean, listen,
I think if you just took the total number of
social media posts from last Wednesday to today, it is
overwhelmingly has to do with this incident and with Charlie.
(37:04):
And you know, on threads, which is somewhat like x
or Twitter. I like how it classify stuff a little
bit better topically. Hashtags do it or used to do
it on Twitter. It maybe still does, but there's actual
topics on threads. And I spent a little time on
social media just because I you know, of course life,
(37:28):
I'm a human in twenty twenty five, and you know,
sometimes you just find yourself swiping. Not that it's always good,
but I found some what people are talking about with this,
and I think there are a few things that I
would I think have been good things that I think
that we could answer or take a hold the Bible
(37:48):
up to it and look, give that lens, the biblical lens.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
On some of these.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
I won't even say who some of these people are,
because to be honest, it doesn't even matter. But I
thought this one was particularly good. It says it's an
unpopular opinion. But if you hate Charlie Kirk, and you
see a lot of people saying, hey, if you don't
agree with this, or if you do or that, just
unfollow me.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Be gone.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
I want you out of my life. That type of stuff, right,
unpopular opinion. If you hate Charlie Kirk, you don't have
to unfollow me. You can if you want to. But
let's talk first. Let's have a conversation. Let's dialogue, because
that is how we learn and how we move forward.
(38:31):
That was I thought, And this is what you get
on threads, I think.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
A little more than Twitter. You get.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
You get some sensible conversation. But then there's some questions,
and there's this one. I found particularly disturbing because I
think that and I'll tell you why at the end.
But it's never been easier. A lot of people went
to church on Sunday after probably so a lot. I
saw a lot of preachers that I that I follow
on I just follow socially that said they had never
had more people in their church than this way. People
(38:57):
sitting on stairs going up to the balcony because they
ran out of seats everywhere. It's never been easier to
find a local church. Step one. Search churches near me
on Google Maps. Step two, pick one that looks promising.
Step three. Check them out on YouTube and watch their
latest service.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Step four. If it seems like a good fit, show up.
Some people put.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
More thought in what they're having on a Thursday night
for dinner than this guy just explained of how to
find a church. We've had extensive conversations on how to
find a productive, good church, healthy church. It is a
little more involved than going to yelp.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Who is this guy?
Speaker 2 (39:47):
I told you I wasn't gonna say any money.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Okay, I'm just going to leave them all black, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
No, it was a this is so there's threads.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Which part I don't like is that it incorporates people
you follow and other people that you might.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Be interested in.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
So I didn't follow this guy. Yeah, we do have.
And I'll tell you what if if Cayden could do
this put a card at the top of this episode
in this spot right here is the episode where we
talked about healthy churches.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, we did like an hour of just going down
the list of what is a healthy church? Yeah, yeah,
that's so important to know.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
In thirty two years, I've never opened a Bible that
changed on September tenth, twenty twenty twenty five. If anyone
has some good readings or studies, send them my way.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
I have no idea what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Actually, like that one, that one gets you a little
choked up.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Just a little bit, because we've talked about that too,
how to read your Bible, Cayden, you know what to
do if you can put that up there to think
that up at the top if you're watching, like if
you're watching on TV that those are hard to find,
but you can.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
We'll put in the description too.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
But we've done another episode of just how to read
your Bible and how to I mean I think there's
probably been three or four episodes about that.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Check those out.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
The one with David Platt's a good one, yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yeah, absolutely, And he even has a book called how
to Read Your Bible, to read your Yeah, and it's
about this big yeah, and it's really good. You should
grab that. But those that's more productive than going on
social media. And I love that they came on here
and started asking that question. But I thought that was
I thought that was really good.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, man, Yeah, you have more of that.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
That's it. That's ok. Those the ones that I thought
were really good, that that I.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
I got, I too got really innudated these these past
several days I've had. There was a time I was
actually at Lincoln's flag football practice. I got I tell
you this. I got four messages in five minutes, all
(41:48):
of them text messages in five minutes about the same
thing I was. I got one, I was like, yeah,
here we go. I got two. I was like that's
in three. I was like, what in the world? And
by four I was like, all right, the Lord is
the Lord must be doing this all over the world
right now. But the questions were like things like I
(42:11):
got your number from a friend or like hey, we
haven't talked, I know, even heard from me in ten years,
you know, all these just like you know, that was
the introduction, and it was like, how do I know
my Bible better? How do I mature as a Christian?
And those are actually interesting ones because the ones about maturity,
(42:34):
when they especially use the word maturity like I want
to know more I'm a Christian, but I want to
be better at knowing what it means to be a Christian.
Is there like a online course or like a you know,
like a training seminar or like something. And what's crazy
(42:54):
is that the answer to that is so much easier
than anyone knows. But but it's also very revealing. I'll explain.
The answer has always been the church. The church is
where Christians grow, That's where they learn about their Bible.
It's where that's where they grow in their faith and
(43:16):
sharpen their spiritual gifts. It's always been that way. But
when you ask me that, you're also revealing, Oh, you're
in an unhealthy church. There are two There are distinctions
we make about churches. One is there's a false church
and there's a true church. False church. We don't go there.
(43:38):
We we you know, we're going to talk about the
Jovah's witnesses and and ld s and we're going to
we're gonna talk about the the churches that deny that
either the deity of Christ or the sufficiency of the Gospel,
or the the the Unitarian God where all roads lead
(44:03):
to Him, all roads lead to there is no hell.
There's like when certain doctrines are stripped, we go false church.
This is false teaching, false prophets, different topic, different that's
a different podcast episode. But of the true churches, there
is an unhealthy true church and a healthy true church.
(44:26):
The definition that the the unity of the true Church,
of all of the true church, would be that they
preach the substitutionary gospel, the salvation by faith alone gospel.
You're saved by faith, you know, as Paul would say,
by grace. You've been saved through faith. This is not
(44:47):
your own doing. It's the gift of God now, the
result of work, so that no man may boast you're
saved by this story I've just told you about death.
Row Christ comes and says, take me instead, exchange me.
By faith, you will be forgiven and reconciled with a
God that you have made an enemy. You have separated
yourselves through your sin. He his wrath is upon you,
(45:10):
and then you're covered by Christ. That's the gospel. Churches
that teach that, or there's unhealthy churches and there's healthy
churches another that's another topic for another episode. We've in fact,
we've covered all these things before. But but what I'm
trying to say, is it since the beginning of the
(45:32):
New Testament, or excuse me, since the beginning of the
the first century Church, we've understood that the church is
a gathering of believers. It's a gathering of Christians who
come together under the preaching of the Word, and they're
(45:54):
given they're given an understanding of the Word that's applied
to the lives. They are using their spiritual gifts for
each other and through each other and to each other,
loving each other, sharing in the Lord's Supper, baptism and
distribution of of those that are in need. Okay, it's
(46:20):
always been what it is. And then so you've heard
the phrase gather and scatter, So you gather, you're built
up in the church, and then you scatter into the
communities and into the neighborhoods, and you evangelize and you
bring people you know when you can to church or
you tell you tell them the gospel. And when they
come to church, the unbelievers, they see the love of
(46:43):
the Christians and the unity, the love and the and
that that they have. By the way, I'm talking all denominations,
there's a kind of a misconception that you like all
my LDS friends, that I love my elder s friends.
We have discussions every day, no, no, every other day.
I mean we just got things all the time, Me
and my olds friends. And then a lot of times
they come right up here in this room, but they
(47:05):
can they kind of think, like we all disagree. All
the denominations have split, we don't we all agree on
the Gospel. And when when non believers come in, they
see the love we have for each other, our love
for the Gospel, our unity, and the Gospel that is
our witness. What's happened, though, is that over the last
(47:27):
several decades that the idea of the church has flipped
upside down to where now it's a revival. The church
is a place where everyone comes to hear the Gospel
and be saved. Okay, that sounds like such a great idea,
but that's that's not a church. That is that's a
(47:50):
revival tint. That's an evangelism crusade, you know, that's that's
that's a football stadium. Yeah, that's a go you go
out and preach the gospel. It's Billy Graham. But that's
not church. Because if you're if you're using your Sunday
gathering to try to bring people in and say you're
welcome here in your home and we love you here,
(48:11):
and you know, come here the good news, all of
that is true. But if that's the focus what happened
to the Christians. They're not maturing. They're they're eating cinnamon
toast crunch instead of steak and eggs. You know, they're
they're they're not being nourished, they're eating milk, and they're
never going to grow. And so when all the people
(48:35):
this week have come to me and said, I want
to mature in the faith, where do I do that?
It's like the church, but this is a failure of
unhealthy churches that haven't fed their flock meat. They have
fed the milk every Sunday. And people, these very people
I'm talking to. But I love my church. Why because
(48:58):
I love the people. Of course you do and I do.
Two But you have to know what how do we
define church? What is it? Because if it's only just
a gathering of people we love, then we're not growing.
And when we need the Bible and we need to
activate and we need to grow, we have nothing. We
(49:19):
realize our faith was paper thin all along because Sunday
after Sunday we've just been just given fruit loops.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Well, and there's one more point that you remind me.
There is one.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
I didn't actually save it, but there's one I've seen
several Times that said, if your church did not address
what happened to Charlie Kirk this weekend, you need to
find a new church. I disagree with that. If your
church did not share the gospel, if he didn't, that's
(49:56):
what you need to be focused on at whether Charlie, Yes,
of course I think that it should.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
You know, I would imagine.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
A lot of the congregations hurting this past weekend, and
we're the weekend before, we're hurting, right after it happened.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Should you address that? Absolutely? You should. Should it be
your message?
Speaker 3 (50:18):
I don't know that my church has ever been about
any kind of political leader, no ever, And if it was,
that is a sign you're not in a healthy church.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
If that's the main focus.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Yeah, what you're talking that brings up a good point
because if the message should in a healthy church, the
message every Sunday, Yeah, should be whatever message the author
of that particular passage that you're studying wanted to give. Right,
whatever your point is should be the point that that
Paul is making in Second Corinthians, Sir Peter is making
(50:53):
in his first letter, or or Mark is making when
he when he wrote Mark in his story in chapter
for about the windstorm. We preach the point of the text,
not the world.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Yeah, not the current.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
But did your church bring it up?
Speaker 3 (51:10):
Though it brought up obviously a hurt and in the
confession time, so we had kind of have the time
right before. So typically do confession. That's where you it's
solo confession. This is not a I go to a
Baptist church, but it's a it's not a it's not
you go to a confessional. So I don't want to
think it's like that. It is a time for you
(51:30):
to reflect. What do I need to lay at the
feet of the cross before I come in here and
and ask the Lord to bless me with his word?
What do I need to reflect on in my life
from this week? And go, yeah, I know you were
dealing with me on that. Let's let's let's pray about
(51:50):
that right now.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
That's kind of that time.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
And that's where normally it's it's someone from the congregation
that gets up and does a prayer there. This week
it was our pastor and he said, I just want
to take this time right now for us to all
to one reflect not only on our lives, but what
our week has been since this past Wednesday and what
that is. You know, we live in a very divisive,
(52:14):
divisive world, and we can let anyone, even believers, can
be led to believe that we are that we are alone,
and now is the time that we need to change
our way of life. And in the fact of you know,
(52:36):
prayings not enough, we got to do more. That's never
what the word said. The word never said that. Do
you could you be more, get involved, more and more action?
Maybe could you have more conversations with people like let's
take just an example of what Charlie did do is
(52:56):
that you don't find this with many people in general,
but you definitely don't find it on both sides of
the aisle of there being two microphones in those settings,
one for him and one for anybody that wanted to
disagree with him. In fact, if you disagree, you moved
to the front of the line. Well, some of that
for clickbait, sure, because the argument got more traction than
(53:19):
the than the agreement, right, but it also was the
time to educate and a time to have conversation and
to find time to find Hey, let's talk through your
side and my side, and let's find some common ground here.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
You're not talking about your church anymore.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
No, no, no, I'm sorry, yes, yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
I did get off of that, but it was it
was what I would saying, is that that that could
lead you know, if you if you don't recenter on
what we're here this morning for, you can go that
direction and move off into other you know, this could
this could be the spiral out of out of control.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
So we have two places. The Word of exhortation we
talk about we can talk about events we can and
our pastoral prayer, yeah, which I did this past Sunday,
so we could use both of those. The word of
exhortation is also a place we could do baptism, and
what we did we flipped that on this past Sunday
(54:12):
and turn it into a lament, So we have a
prayer of lament and that enabled this story to fill that.
But then for the sermon, we have to go right
back into where we were, which this week was John nine.
So Marshall preached John nine at amais to you know,
picking up where we left off last week.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
We're in the sermon on the Mount. That's what we did.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
So we have to be fed, we have to grow.
We can't just be tossed around with every current event headline,
and that becomes the sermon, and that becomes the message.
So that's why I disagree with that message you wrote.
How far How long have we been doing this?
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Almost one hour?
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Okay if there's other things, but we should do another
podcast because because we need to get into the activation
of Charlie Kirk as well. I want to. I do
want to get in on it. Don't think we have
time today?
Speaker 3 (55:01):
Well yeah, I mean I think this is it's going
to be at the top of people's searches for a while,
this in the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
But yeah, and and really the what what I want
to get at is that is that the our adversary
is the devil. We read that earlier and Peter Paul
says that we do not wrest wrestle against flesh and blood.
So it's not people. It's not people we're hating. It's
not people that are that that we're here to resist.
(55:32):
You know that we don't see any anything like that
in the New Testament. Where are you going?
Speaker 3 (55:36):
We were doing Sermon on the Mount, I said the
week before all of this. Jesus teaches about retaliation and
about loving enemies, right before it all. That's very clear,
which we can get into the.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
Whole new episode. We should we should unpact that. Let
me say one more thing, because I always get I
always know if LDS comes up. The olva's witnesses don't
listen that much, but LDS a lot of LDS, and
so they get really mad when I say things like that.
And I just want to say that, if you're listening
(56:16):
right now, you're LDS. I love you. You're you are
such a big part of my ministry. You're on my heart.
You know that I have thoroughly gone through the Book
of Mormon with your brothers and sisters and a lot
of it. Right here we have a man nose. You
(56:36):
get a test. I have many books and Mormons. I
have them on here.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
Let us know in comments, that's why you say that.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
Highlighted written up notes taking you'd be because those are
the ones that come down when the elders of our
you know, our local elders LDS elders come over and
sit with us. And so there's been years of this
dialogue and it's always just great. So if anyone hates
me because of me saying that, or to say you're
(57:07):
a false church. Understand that when the elders are here,
we understand. I call you a false church and you
call me a false church. So your first prophet, Joseph
Smith definitely said that I am a false teacher in
my church is a false church damned to hell. So
we have mutual understanding with our our language here. So
(57:30):
this is not a hate speech or it's not because
I don't understand you you guys that this is just
we're speaking from an evangelical, biblical uh viewpoint on on
this podcast. So did I clear that up? Do you
think I did? Okay? I could hear the hate coming
my way. But and that's okay because I do love you.
(57:52):
But next episode, I don't know where we'll go, but
this is this is good stuff. We'll continue where So, man,
where was God with Charlie Kirk at the at his assassination?
Where was he?
Speaker 2 (58:06):
He was there?
Speaker 1 (58:07):
He was there?
Speaker 2 (58:08):
Amen, and on the throne and on the throne. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
Amen.
Speaker 4 (58:15):
See you guys, Ye, thank you so much for hanging
out with me on this episode of.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
The Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate you being here. If you're
listening right now, go ahead and rate today's podcast. It
helps more folks find the show, and if you're tuning
in on the iHeartRadio app, you could actually set this
podcast as one.
Speaker 4 (58:30):
Of your presets, which is cool that way. I'm just
one tap away. If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget
to hit like and subscribe so you don't miss any
new episodes. And if you got a question you want
answered right here on the show, just email me podcast
at grangersmith dot com.
Speaker 1 (58:44):
I'd love to hear from you. Thanks again for being here.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (58:47):
Yee
Good email came in, and I think it's one of
these questions that we could hear and we could think
that maybe it's a little immature, maybe it's a little stupid,
but in the back of our minds, all of us
want it answered. And it could apply this to any
kind of evil or suffering. And the question is this
specifically in this context, where was God when Charlie Kirk
(00:22):
got assassinated? Let's unpack this.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
On this episode.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Back on the podcast, ant Man the most consistent guest
I have these days sometimes. And I said that on
purpose because sometimes people say you and your co host,
well maybe, and then I thought, maybe I don't say
his name enough. The ant Man is with me.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
And then that feels weird, Why are you call him that?
Then he goes, yeah, your name's Anthon. But that's no fun,
no it no, that's good. You always felt because it
started in radio started and Anthony feels like a mouthful
to say on the radio.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Oh okay, I got it.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
And once my very first job, I was a morning
show producer in the morning show host just started calling
me aunt man.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I was like, that's way easier to say.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah, I like it up using it so here we
are discussing another topic, another category of the same topic,
I should say, And the reason I said it because
we covered on U podcast. We covered it on the
Smiths of course extensively on social media. But we're back
to these Charlie Kirk. Thanks, you got an email, and
(01:47):
that's that's why we're going to address this. Yes, and
I think it's important, So let's dive into this.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
It's been a big been a big week week and
a half since, yeah, and so a lot of questions.
But I thought, and this is so simple and it
fits kind of how we do the podcast. Is said,
I've got a question for you, Granger that's been weighing
on me. Where was God when Charlie Kirk got shot.
It's hard to make sense of something like this, and
(02:14):
I'd love to hear your perspective on how we can
trust God in moments it feels so dark.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Thanks, Brian.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, and totally normal question to think. And it's funny
because we're doing a show in this today and it's
a question that probably I'm assuming most people they think
about it, but they don't want to ask it because
it kind of sounds stupid. Maybe maybe there's an obvious answer,
(02:44):
and so I don't I don't really want to say
it out loud, but we'll cover it here because we've
dealt with this in other ways. And in one way
we dealt with it, you and I on this show
for Trump, Yes, the opposite we said did God save Trump?
I think that was the title of that podcast. Yeah, yeah,
(03:06):
And and we made the argument that yes, he did
save Trump. And then the implication of that was, how
do we know that? Because he's alive and God does
all things, not necessarily for an individual, you know, not
not He didn't intervene in the Trump assassination for because
(03:31):
of a he was caught off guard. I should say
it that way, because he was suddenly caught off guard
and he thought, ooops, I gotta kind of straighten things out.
God doesn't operate that way. And so let's flip it
before we dive into all this. So let's flip and
say did God not save Charlie Kirk? And we're talking physically,
(03:51):
not not spiritually, we would say no, he didn't.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
He didn't.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
How do we know because he died? Yeah, you know
what I mean? The first first thing we think of
when we think and and I have done. I have
done so much thinking on this subject and for so long,
you know, after you know, somebody like me that has
(04:18):
held my dead boy in my arms and looked into
the the open eyes of my dead three year old son,
you know, I have felt and still can't feel that
cold skin and fe the the heaviness of a dead
(04:42):
body when it's when it does, when it has no
nothing's working, you know, there's no muscle, and so it's
just limp. Yet heavy is so unhumanlike even when we
sleep we have some kind of rigidity, you know, like,
but when you're dead like that, you're just loose. It
(05:03):
doesn't feel human. It feels like a doll. Those kind
of memories for me have have screamed out that kind
of question, where was God?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
You know?
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And early on in my grief journey after River, as
I was reading through the Bible, started highlighting things and
no one was discipling me at the time, which is unfortunate.
But as I was reading through the Bible, I would
see things that go, WHOA, that's interesting to underline something here, Yeah,
(05:45):
highlight something here, and the things I was doing and
then I was transferring that and I was taking either
taking screenshots of it or writing into my notes, and
I was obsessed with this idea that it appeared to
be God was doing it all. There was no accidents.
Suddenly I realized that that word needs to be out
(06:07):
of my vocabulary. There are no accidents. God does it.
God kills, God makes alive. The Book of Deuteronomy says,
I kill, I make a live, I hurt, I heal.
You know he says these things I give, I take away,
I give I take away. We look in the Book
of Job. Satan acts in the Book of Job. But
(06:30):
it's God who gives Satan permission starts seeing these things
like whoa Isaiah forty five seven. God forms light and
creates calamity that some translations render calamity or destruction. It's
God who does it, whether by allowing removing his hand.
(06:52):
Some some theologians looked have looked at it as when
this kind of thing happens, when God lets it go,
Because the now natural order of the universe is to
spin off into chaos. Order comes from God. God's hand
on it, it remains in order. He starts lifting his
hand away, it starts to spin in chaos. Sometimes that's
a result of rebellion or sin. We see that throughout
(07:15):
the Bible. Sometimes it's just part of a sovereign plan.
Before we go any further. The height of this is
the Cross of Christ. This is the pinnacle of this
idea because here's what we know. God sin his only
son into the world because man could not. When I
(07:36):
say man, I mean mankind, I mean humankind, man and women.
That's what I mean to say. I want to say
this is about men. God sends his only son to
redeem man for our rebellion against him. Because we've trusted ourselves.
We've trusted our own techniques or our own talents, our
(07:59):
own diplomas, or our own insurance policy, or a separate
God of some kind, or idolized something, or idolized a
woman or a child, or a political speaker, or a
country or a Lamborghini, you know, whatever it might be.
(08:19):
We can make idols out of anything. Ministry, we make
idols out of ministry or podcast, you know. But through
all this, God sends his son to redeem us. He
sends his perfect son, Jesus into the world to live
the perfect life that we never could, so that he
(08:41):
could become the substitute for us. I'll explain that in
a second. But this is the pinnacle because what happens.
What happens when God does that, we kill him. We
murder him on the cross, We reject the God's messenger
to us, God's savior that he has sent us. We
(09:01):
murder him. And I say we because we we should
rightly say we. I mean, it was the Jewish leaders
at the time, the Romans carried it out, but essentially
it was me, you know, because I know my heart.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
It's human kind, it's humankind.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah. So but here's here's the catch. Here's here's my
point of this. But God planned that God planned the death,
the murder of his only son, so that you know,
the famous John three sixteen, so that we could be saved,
(09:38):
so that whoever believes in him would never perish but
receive eternal life. Right. So, the the the idea here
is that we are on death row. I've said this
story a thousand times to people. We're on death row.
And I said it just yesterday to a guy try
(10:00):
to explain the substitution of Jesus. Yeah, you're on death
row for committing a crime against the highest office. Well,
what do you mean by that? I said, well, say
you punch me. If you punched me right now, it
would hurt. I would be mad at you. Maybe some
people around here would question what's going on with you too,
(10:21):
But that's about it. But if I called the police
and they came here because I wanted to press charges,
and you punch one of the police officers the same punch,
You're now in a lot more trouble. And then you
go to court because of that punch, and you punch
the judge the same punch, the same intensity in your fist.
(10:42):
You're now in a lot more trouble than the original
punch for just me. And then you go and you punch,
you break out, and you punch a Texas legislator. You're
a lot more trouble. What if it got all the
way up to the Supreme Court and you punch a
Supreme Court judge, you were in a lot of trouble,
same punch. What about the President of the United States,
you punch him, You're you're in a lot I mean,
(11:04):
you're you're cooked. You know, well, we have committed a
crime against the highest office, same crime. The level of
office matters, and the punishment for us is death. The
wages of sin, Paul writes in Romans is Death. So
we are on death row. It doesn't matter. Once we're
on death row. It doesn't matter what we do at
(11:25):
this point, if we how good a person we are. Hey, judge,
look i'm doing pretty good. I'm I'm doing good works.
What do you think. The judge goes, yeah, thank you
for that. But that's not getting you off death row.
You're not earning your way off this. You're already guilty.
This is where Jesus comes in. Jesus comes in to
to death row and says him and man him, he's mine.
(11:49):
I love him. Take me instead, take my life. Let
him go, set him free. And the judge goes, well,
that is a worthy substitution because you are this, this
is the you've upheld the law perfectly. So this is
a worthy change exchange, you know. So you're set free,
(12:10):
you get to go and in that in your freedom.
Now you look back on this moment of freedom that
you've been set free from death row, and now you
want to live a life that honors that. Yeah, you
want to live a life that glorifies that great exchange. Right.
So that's the gospel. And so when we look at
(12:30):
did God do it? Well, yeah, God does all these things,
and we have to trust that. Romans eight twenty eight
says that God works all things for good, even evil acts,
for those that love him and are called the court
in his purpose, even the evil thing.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
That's for all things, all things all. And I had
I've had a couple of preachers that would do this.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
They would highlight little words like that, but they had
so much power. And I don't think you understand. I
think we forget and go. Well, there's got to be
an exception. There's gotta be just I know, he said, all,
but what if I someone just hasn't brought up this yet.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Nope, all means all, Yes, no exception.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
That's right. Can read you something from Travis? You remember?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Travis was on this podcast. Yeah we
went to We can say that we went to Israel
with him.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, we did. I've been all around the world with him.
He's a dear brother. And sometimes he sends me like
a devotional And this one was from Genesis, the famous
Jennison's Genesis fifty where but as for you, you met
evil against me, but God meant it for good. So
what you meant for evil? God meant for good. This
(13:49):
is a pretty popular Bible story of Joseph as he's
talking to his brothers that have betrayed him, an evil
betrayal so that he could be dead because they were
jealous of him. Right, and and Joseph is sold into
slavery and ends up in Egypt, a long way from Israel.
(14:12):
He ends up in Egypt. Well, we know later that
the story is that the people of Israel grow from
that in Egypt and then are delivered from Egypt back
into the Promised Land. But this whole thing God orchestrates,
this whole thing that Joseph didn't know that. Joseph didn't
have the complete text like we do today, but he
(14:33):
knew when he saw his brothers that what you meant
for evil, God meant for good. But there was both
of them, or a positive positive action of meaning you
meant it, yes, but God did too. You meant it
for bad, he meant it for good. So that means
God was involved in both sides of this. He has
(14:54):
to be. And when I say that a lot and this,
you know, where was God? With Charlie Kirk, I think
we'll get specifically to the where part. But right, Now
it's did he save him or did he did he
let him go? And the specific thing we need to
understand is that God wasn't reacting in the Genesis story
(15:15):
what you meant for evil. God then saw that evil
and he decided that he knew a workaround and he
could calculate a way to fix and mend what you meant. No,
that's not what it says. You meant it, and God
meant it. So that means God, God sent Joseph into
(15:35):
slavery for to be left for death, to go to
Egypt and go through all that suffering for years he
was in prison there in Egypt. Why God meant it?
Why for good? God meant it for good. So we
say the same thing about any evil, any evil. You
could say it, well, that evil man murdered Charlie Kirk. Yeah,
(16:00):
God minute for good. What Yeah, that's what the Bible says.
That's what the Bible says. So here's this thing from Travis.
He he said it's been said that every trial in
life either makes you better or bitter, depending on whether
you believe the truth of Romans eight twenty eight depends
(16:24):
on how you look at Romans eight twenty eight. Yeah, Yeah,
for God's working all things for good. All things. Either
you don't look at that way, If you don't see that,
then you're going to be bitter about the evil around
us in this world. If you do see it, you're
gonna go, Ah, we lament, we grieve, we suffer, but
(16:46):
with hope that God is doing this for good, you know,
so because of that we could rejoice in our sufferings.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
The Bible says, there's a good illustration that I see
on pop up on facebok, book or wherever from time
to time, and it's two guys that are on the
same train.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
One guy.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
So think about this, the train being the circumstance. One
guy's looking out the window on one side and sees
nothing but the side of a mountain and it's dark
and it's black, right, And the other guy's looking out
the other window and sees nothing but the valley and
the sun and the trees and the flowers and how
beautiful everything is. Same circumstance, same place, different viewpoints. So
(17:27):
if you're looking I mean, if you're looking at this
or you're looking at a circuit, it doesn't have to
be just what we're currently going through with the attention
on the death of Charlie. It can be a death
of somebody in your family, or a dire circumstance you're
having health wise, or anything you're in the middle of
the same circumstance. Which side of the window are you
(17:48):
looking at it? And it's not always easy. I do
understand that. And we've all been through something. If you're
looking at if you're looking at something that seems so
so dark, turn around for a second and look at
another perspective, because it's there. Because it says right there,
and it says right here in his word, that was there.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
That And that's the point, and that's the good point
you're you're making, is that that we're not talking about
just be a glass half full type guy. No, you
just have a positive outlook. See, there's always good in everything.
There's a silver lining. By no means are we saying that.
We're so we're grounding that that silver lining in truth
(18:31):
that we're reading. That's right that we know and we
read this, but also we could attest to it. We
can go, yeah, I've lived it. I held my dead son,
you know, I've been I've seen it looked in the
eyes of my dead son. So this is not just
a this is not just meaningless words. I'm saying here,
(18:51):
I've seen the truth that's grounded here. And then I've
lived and the Lord has delivered me through evil and
and seen by his grace the development of a good
plan that is still in the works for me, not
for him. It's finished for him and in the works
for me. But we should say God is not the
(19:13):
author of evil. We know that. James says that in
one thirteen. But he does govern. He governs all evil.
He has to because he's sovereign. That's what That's what
the word sovereign means. There's nothing outside of his control.
Nothing is surprising him or or catching him off guard.
So he's completely governed and nothing happens. Nothing. The bullet
(19:35):
that went through Trump, you know his ear if it did,
and the bullet that went through Charlie, none of it
was outside of the governance of God. And you know what, people,
that is not such a crazy idea, because they could
already tell we could you know, just a weak remove.
People could already go, well, this is causing something like
(19:58):
things are things are happening right now? Wait, we've seen
this from the beginning of time. We saw it with
Abel and Caine, like something happened with Abel, Like something
changed where people when when you see someone murdered like this,
like people, people start to rise up in a way
(20:23):
of courage and strength that wasn't there before.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
And if you think about a you think about a
seed for whatever, whether it's weed or if it's a
tree or something. We look at it as oh, that
the purpose of that seed is to grow me a tree.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
But think about if it seems a.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Little ridiculous to think this way, but go with me
for a second. If you're a bunch of seeds, you're like, well,
we're all seeds, but you're telling me I have to
be destroyed.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
In order for everything else to be good.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Like, yeah, that's the purpose of this. I know you
don't see it because you don't get to see the tree.
You don't get to see the fruit coming from that tree.
You don't get to see any of the good that
comes out of this because that part is gone for you.
But if you could look and see, this is all
going to be And that's where it's so hard as
(21:23):
humans to look and go How could a sovereign, loving
god allow things like this to happen to a son,
to a father who now leaves behind a wife and
two kids. And unfortunately, that right there, in one way
or the other, happens every single day. He's just high
profile and had a big voice and opened up a
(21:46):
lot of doors for a lot of people and what
have you. But that happens all the time, and we
wonder why, And we asked the question that this guy
asked us. Where was God when he got shot? Where
was God when my son died? Where was God when
I lost my job and my house and my wife
and my home and my.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Kids and what have you?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Well, if you could see the tree that comes out
of this of you being crushed and buried, you have
a different perspective and a different.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Outlook on all of it.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
It doesn't make it easy in the moment, but it
definitely gives a meaning to the reason for the suffering.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
That's such a good point. And I remember, you know,
after River, after we lost him, people were coming up
to me and saying things like, just want to let
you know, Grangeer, God had nothing to do with the
death of your son. And I know they're trying to
make me feel good, but I would walk away from
that going then where was he?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
You know?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
And I thought about that all the time, like what
did is did his godly alarm not go off? Or
the like did he miss did he missed the notification
that this was happening? If you say he had nothing
to do with it? And where was he? That's always
what that means. And that's when I started finding, you know,
as I'm reading through the Bible as a narrative, as
a as a peace that reveals who God is, I'm
(23:12):
like underlining that doesn't seem like he's ever aloof to anything.
He's always there, Yeah, and he's always working and it's
always part of a plan, and it's always far beyond
what we could imagine, i mean outside of time. And
so before before we get to it, well that's the why.
(23:32):
And then as we get into the where, we don't
go anywhere without saying, well, we see the pinnacle of
this at the Cross the Father God, the Father was there,
and the Spirit of God was there, and the Son
of God was there where at Calvary there who was
(23:53):
governing the universe? God was governing the universe. He was there.
An interesting thought about this I think about sometimes is
in mark mark third, mark mark four, and it's it
could be easily be missed. Sometimes we do miss it,
(24:16):
you know, we miss things all the time. That's why
we read the Bible, not one time, yeah, but yes,
because we see things like mark mark four thirty five.
This is the story of Jesus calms the storm. It
says on that day, when evening had come, he'd said
to them, the disciples, let us go to the other side,
(24:38):
talking about the Sea of Galilee. And you and I
have been out there, yeah, and leaving the crowd, they
took him with them. They took him with them in
the boat just as he was, and other boats were
with him. And a great wind storm arose, great big storm. Right,
this big storm is rolling on this lake. We saw
(25:00):
a big storm, very lake. Great windstorm arose and the
waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat
was already filling. But he was in the stern, asleep
on the cushion. And they woke him and said, teacher,
do you not care that we are perishing? And he
woke and rebuked the wind and said, of the sea,
(25:21):
peace be still. And the wind ceased, and there was
a great calm, same word, great storm, great windstorm, great calm.
And then it continues. He said to them, why are
you so afraid? Have you still no faith? And they
were filled with here's that word again, great fear? What
(25:42):
your what's your translation say on those three words? Great windstorm,
great calm, great fear?
Speaker 3 (25:49):
This is completely calm?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
What does it say about windstorm?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Then the wind died down? It was completely caught.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
See was it say that on the windstorm? In verse
thirty seven?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
A furious squall came up?
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Okay? And the ways that say in verse thirty.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Nine thirty he got up, and it says a was
completely calm the wind.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
That's the same word, but they're rendering it different in
that translation in the NV. But it's the same word.
And Jesus, but this is the craziest part of this
little little passage. And they were filled with filled with
great fear and said to one another, who then is
this that even the wind and the sea obey him?
(26:39):
They were more afraid of the man and the word
that he gave that the storm stopped. Let's think about
that just for one second, and I'll get to my point.
In any other situation, in any other religion or our
religious story, there would be a great storm, and then
the healer are the prophet, stops the storm and there's
(27:03):
a great relief. Not in the story, there's a great
storm and the prophet, the priest, the king stops the storm,
and the anxiety gets bigger because of the guy in
the boat with him, because I just realized, yeah, whoa, whoa,
this guy just there was a huge storm. This guy
(27:25):
says a word and it stops. And I thought, I
was afraid of the storm. What can this guy.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Do to me?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Some things, some things flash back in their mind. The
storm listened to him, and earlier today I did not.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Oh yeah, that's good.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Earlier today I didn't And I should have.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
If that wind, the wind and the waves and the
storm listened to him, why didn't I earlier?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
So a man read verse thirty six again? Where was he?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
So? Leaving thirty six, leaving the crowd behind, and they
took him along.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Justice, I'm sorry, is that right? Thirty eight? Thirty eight, thirty.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Eight and thirty eight. Jesus was in the stern, sleeping
on a cushion.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Where was he?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, he was asleep.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
He was in the boat.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah, oh yeah, he was in the boat.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
He was right there in the boat. Where was he?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Where?
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Where was he? With Charlie? Right Where was he?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yep?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
He was right there, right there, He was right there.
Where was he for us? For Charlie's wife, Erica? Where
was he? He was right there? What about those these kids,
those beautiful kids, where was he? He was right there
(28:47):
with them, weeping over sin of this world. If you're
trying to get a gift for someone you think has everything,
how about a special video message from me. It's easy
to do. Go to cameo dot com slash Granger Smith
and you put in the prompt what you want me
(29:09):
to say. I get that message on my phone. I'll
say happy birthday, happy anniversary, whatever personalized message you want
me to say to whoever you want me to say
it to. I send it to you and you give
it to them. It's pretty cool. Go to cameo dot
com slash Granger Smith.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
It's easier I think sometimes for us as humans to
believe that he wasn't and missed it than it is
to believe that he was there and in your perspective,
did nothing.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
You said the keyword your perspective.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, because you don't see the full picture.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I mean, it really is is you know, is as
I've grown, the more I grow in my faith every day,
is that man, I really understand that his ways aren't
my ways because my ways are not they're not consistent,
they're not fruitful. So much of the time, just my
(30:06):
ways the way I want things to happen. Yeah, they're
quick now, they're self gratifying, and his ways are not
my ways. So the more I can understand that, the
more I can more I get that he was there
when that happened.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Because his ways aren't my ways. My ways would have
been well.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Well, then of course you just you bump the barrel
of that gun and it flies off somewhere so that
doesn't hit anybody, and we get a wake up call, right,
you get a Trump wake up call where it just
knicks your ear and go, hey, there is an enemy.
Didn't get it in today. It didn't get you today,
but he could. That would have been me. But I
(30:52):
didn't see the big picture and don't see the big picture.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And sometimes he does that. Yes, sometimes the absolute did it.
I think, Uh, I hate to even say it, but yeah,
we saw it with Trump. Yeah, you know, I'm not
trying to draw this in any kind of comparison. But
but think about James. Count it all joy, my brothers,
when when James, even when you meet trials of various kinds,
(31:19):
you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
Let steadfastess have its full effect, that you may be perfect, complete,
lacking in nothing. We must have trials, we must have it.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Start that over again.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
I was already in Peter, Sorry for you. I was
already in Peter. But thankfully it's only just one one
letter behind it.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Just the very beginning of that.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Oh well, I could say it by the top of
my head. Count it all joy? Count what count it
all joy? Yeah? Count it all joy.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
There's all again, Yeah, everything, no exceptions.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
And this is this is what Peter's going to say
about this. So there's you know, you and I were
talking before you hit record here that we could literally
turn every single page of the Bible.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, we could.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Turn every single page of the Bible and find suffering
and trials and redemption and joy and overcoming all throughout
and sovereignty. Where is God? Peter says it like this,
and the end of his first letter, humble yourselves, therefore,
(32:27):
under the mighty hand of God, that at the proper
time he may exalt you. Casting all there. It is
your anxieties on him because cares for you. Be sober minded,
be watchful your adversary. The devil prows around like a
roaring line, seeking someone to devour. Resist him. Firm in
your faith, knowing that the same kinds of sufferings are
(32:48):
being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. After you
have suffered a little while the God of all grace
has called you into his eternal glory in Christ, will
himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you because he's there. Literally,
(33:12):
the name, the name that we have of Christ, Emmanuel
is God with us.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
In the beginning, John starts his gospel with this beautiful
christology of in the beginning was the Word, and the
word was with God, and the word was God. He
was in the beginning with God. And then down to
verse fourteen, and the word became flesh and dwelt among
us literally literally means tabernacled or he made a tent.
(33:43):
He's going to stay in a tent with us, in
our camp. God of the universe is going to come
stay with us, not on some elite mountaintop but right
here in our camp, he is with us. Why well,
part of it is to experience our sufferings with us.
What a savior we have in Jesus that wants to
(34:06):
share in our sufferings with us and us in his
because ultimately we share in his sufferings and we're saved
that way. It's the death throw he comes, he says, Anthony,
He's mine. I love him. Take me. I want to
share death throw with him. I want to go to
death row and I want I want to stand in
(34:26):
his place. Take me, take my life, kill me. I
want to stand in his place and share in his
sufferings so that he could be free. What kind of
God's story is this? It's the only true God story?
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yea, yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Where are we?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Man?
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I'm like, I told you we were going to start
this podcast, and I was going to be all over
the map if I wasn't careful. But I think we've
been We have walked this path of the Christian response
to this ordeal. I think we've walked that pretty well.
We could do that again, but what where you know? Okay,
(35:12):
before we get into another we could get into another
rabbit hole, and I'm happy to do that. But let's
let me finish a thought on where was he, just
for the person's asking this question. Revelation eleven, verse fifteen.
(35:34):
This is John getting a revelation. Then the seventh Angel
blew as trumpet, and there was loud There were loud
voices in heaven saying the kingdom of the world has
become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he shall reign forever and ever. And the twenty
(35:57):
four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell
in the and worship God, saying, we give thanks to you, Lord,
God Almighty, who is and who was? For you have
taken your great power and begun to reign. The nation's raged.
But your wrath came in the time for the dead
to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets
and saints, for those for who fear your name, both
(36:20):
small and great. It just goes on and on, And
who where is he? He's on the throne. But here's
another image of where he is. He's on the throne.
You can't answer me that question without he's on the
throne reigning.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yes, he wasn't missing that day.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Yeah, he wasn't missing. He didn't call him sick that day.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
I think there are there are some also. I mean, listen,
I think if you just took the total number of
social media posts from last Wednesday to today, it is
overwhelmingly has to do with this incident and with Charlie.
(37:04):
And you know, on threads, which is somewhat like x
or Twitter. I like how it classify stuff a little
bit better topically. Hashtags do it or used to do
it on Twitter. It maybe still does, but there's actual
topics on threads. And I spent a little time on
social media just because I you know, of course life,
(37:28):
I'm a human in twenty twenty five, and you know,
sometimes you just find yourself swiping. Not that it's always good,
but I found some what people are talking about with this,
and I think there are a few things that I
would I think have been good things that I think
that we could answer or take a hold the Bible
(37:48):
up to it and look, give that lens, the biblical lens.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
On some of these.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
I won't even say who some of these people are,
because to be honest, it doesn't even matter. But I
thought this one was particularly good. It says it's an
unpopular opinion. But if you hate Charlie Kirk, and you
see a lot of people saying, hey, if you don't
agree with this, or if you do or that, just
unfollow me.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Be gone.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
I want you out of my life. That type of stuff, right,
unpopular opinion. If you hate Charlie Kirk, you don't have
to unfollow me. You can if you want to. But
let's talk first. Let's have a conversation. Let's dialogue, because
that is how we learn and how we move forward.
(38:31):
That was I thought, And this is what you get
on threads, I think.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
A little more than Twitter. You get.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
You get some sensible conversation. But then there's some questions,
and there's this one. I found particularly disturbing because I
think that and I'll tell you why at the end.
But it's never been easier. A lot of people went
to church on Sunday after probably so a lot. I
saw a lot of preachers that I that I follow
on I just follow socially that said they had never
had more people in their church than this way. People
(38:57):
sitting on stairs going up to the balcony because they
ran out of seats everywhere. It's never been easier to
find a local church. Step one. Search churches near me
on Google Maps. Step two, pick one that looks promising.
Step three. Check them out on YouTube and watch their
latest service.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Step four. If it seems like a good fit, show up.
Some people put.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
More thought in what they're having on a Thursday night
for dinner than this guy just explained of how to
find a church. We've had extensive conversations on how to
find a productive, good church, healthy church. It is a
little more involved than going to yelp.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Who is this guy?
Speaker 2 (39:47):
I told you I wasn't gonna say any money.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Okay, I'm just going to leave them all black, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
No, it was a this is so there's threads.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Which part I don't like is that it incorporates people
you follow and other people that you might.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Be interested in.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
So I didn't follow this guy. Yeah, we do have.
And I'll tell you what if if Cayden could do
this put a card at the top of this episode
in this spot right here is the episode where we
talked about healthy churches.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, we did like an hour of just going down
the list of what is a healthy church? Yeah, yeah,
that's so important to know.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
In thirty two years, I've never opened a Bible that
changed on September tenth, twenty twenty twenty five. If anyone
has some good readings or studies, send them my way.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
I have no idea what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Actually, like that one, that one gets you a little
choked up.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Just a little bit, because we've talked about that too,
how to read your Bible, Cayden, you know what to
do if you can put that up there to think
that up at the top if you're watching, like if
you're watching on TV that those are hard to find,
but you can.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
We'll put in the description too.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
But we've done another episode of just how to read
your Bible and how to I mean I think there's
probably been three or four episodes about that.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Check those out.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
The one with David Platt's a good one, yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yeah, absolutely, And he even has a book called how
to Read Your Bible, to read your Yeah, and it's
about this big yeah, and it's really good. You should
grab that. But those that's more productive than going on
social media. And I love that they came on here
and started asking that question. But I thought that was
I thought that was really good.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, man, Yeah, you have more of that.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
That's it. That's ok. Those the ones that I thought
were really good, that that I.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
I got, I too got really innudated these these past
several days I've had. There was a time I was
actually at Lincoln's flag football practice. I got I tell
you this. I got four messages in five minutes, all
(41:48):
of them text messages in five minutes about the same
thing I was. I got one, I was like, yeah,
here we go. I got two. I was like that's
in three. I was like, what in the world? And
by four I was like, all right, the Lord is
the Lord must be doing this all over the world
right now. But the questions were like things like I
(42:11):
got your number from a friend or like hey, we
haven't talked, I know, even heard from me in ten years,
you know, all these just like you know, that was
the introduction, and it was like, how do I know
my Bible better? How do I mature as a Christian?
And those are actually interesting ones because the ones about maturity,
(42:34):
when they especially use the word maturity like I want
to know more I'm a Christian, but I want to
be better at knowing what it means to be a Christian.
Is there like a online course or like a you know,
like a training seminar or like something. And what's crazy
(42:54):
is that the answer to that is so much easier
than anyone knows. But but it's also very revealing. I'll explain.
The answer has always been the church. The church is
where Christians grow, That's where they learn about their Bible.
It's where that's where they grow in their faith and
(43:16):
sharpen their spiritual gifts. It's always been that way. But
when you ask me that, you're also revealing, Oh, you're
in an unhealthy church. There are two There are distinctions
we make about churches. One is there's a false church
and there's a true church. False church. We don't go there.
(43:38):
We we you know, we're going to talk about the
Jovah's witnesses and and ld s and we're going to
we're gonna talk about the the churches that deny that
either the deity of Christ or the sufficiency of the Gospel,
or the the the Unitarian God where all roads lead
(44:03):
to Him, all roads lead to there is no hell.
There's like when certain doctrines are stripped, we go false church.
This is false teaching, false prophets, different topic, different that's
a different podcast episode. But of the true churches, there
is an unhealthy true church and a healthy true church.
(44:26):
The definition that the the unity of the true Church,
of all of the true church, would be that they
preach the substitutionary gospel, the salvation by faith alone gospel.
You're saved by faith, you know, as Paul would say,
by grace. You've been saved through faith. This is not
(44:47):
your own doing. It's the gift of God now, the
result of work, so that no man may boast you're
saved by this story I've just told you about death.
Row Christ comes and says, take me instead, exchange me.
By faith, you will be forgiven and reconciled with a
God that you have made an enemy. You have separated
yourselves through your sin. He his wrath is upon you,
(45:10):
and then you're covered by Christ. That's the gospel. Churches
that teach that, or there's unhealthy churches and there's healthy
churches another that's another topic for another episode. We've in fact,
we've covered all these things before. But but what I'm
trying to say, is it since the beginning of the
(45:32):
New Testament, or excuse me, since the beginning of the
the first century Church, we've understood that the church is
a gathering of believers. It's a gathering of Christians who
come together under the preaching of the Word, and they're
(45:54):
given they're given an understanding of the Word that's applied
to the lives. They are using their spiritual gifts for
each other and through each other and to each other,
loving each other, sharing in the Lord's Supper, baptism and
distribution of of those that are in need. Okay, it's
(46:20):
always been what it is. And then so you've heard
the phrase gather and scatter, So you gather, you're built
up in the church, and then you scatter into the
communities and into the neighborhoods, and you evangelize and you
bring people you know when you can to church or
you tell you tell them the gospel. And when they
come to church, the unbelievers, they see the love of
(46:43):
the Christians and the unity, the love and the and
that that they have. By the way, I'm talking all denominations,
there's a kind of a misconception that you like all
my LDS friends, that I love my elder s friends.
We have discussions every day, no, no, every other day.
I mean we just got things all the time, Me
and my olds friends. And then a lot of times
they come right up here in this room, but they
(47:05):
can they kind of think, like we all disagree. All
the denominations have split, we don't we all agree on
the Gospel. And when when non believers come in, they
see the love we have for each other, our love
for the Gospel, our unity, and the Gospel that is
our witness. What's happened, though, is that over the last
(47:27):
several decades that the idea of the church has flipped
upside down to where now it's a revival. The church
is a place where everyone comes to hear the Gospel
and be saved. Okay, that sounds like such a great idea,
but that's that's not a church. That is that's a
(47:50):
revival tint. That's an evangelism crusade, you know, that's that's
that's a football stadium. Yeah, that's a go you go
out and preach the gospel. It's Billy Graham. But that's
not church. Because if you're if you're using your Sunday
gathering to try to bring people in and say you're
welcome here in your home and we love you here,
(48:11):
and you know, come here the good news, all of
that is true. But if that's the focus what happened
to the Christians. They're not maturing. They're they're eating cinnamon
toast crunch instead of steak and eggs. You know, they're
they're they're not being nourished, they're eating milk, and they're
never going to grow. And so when all the people
(48:35):
this week have come to me and said, I want
to mature in the faith, where do I do that?
It's like the church, but this is a failure of
unhealthy churches that haven't fed their flock meat. They have
fed the milk every Sunday. And people, these very people
I'm talking to. But I love my church. Why because
(48:58):
I love the people. Of course you do and I do.
Two But you have to know what how do we
define church? What is it? Because if it's only just
a gathering of people we love, then we're not growing.
And when we need the Bible and we need to
activate and we need to grow, we have nothing. We
(49:19):
realize our faith was paper thin all along because Sunday
after Sunday we've just been just given fruit loops.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Well, and there's one more point that you remind me.
There is one.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
I didn't actually save it, but there's one I've seen
several Times that said, if your church did not address
what happened to Charlie Kirk this weekend, you need to
find a new church. I disagree with that. If your
church did not share the gospel, if he didn't, that's
(49:56):
what you need to be focused on at whether Charlie, Yes,
of course I think that it should.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
You know, I would imagine.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
A lot of the congregations hurting this past weekend, and
we're the weekend before, we're hurting, right after it happened.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Should you address that? Absolutely? You should. Should it be
your message?
Speaker 3 (50:18):
I don't know that my church has ever been about
any kind of political leader, no ever, And if it was,
that is a sign you're not in a healthy church.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
If that's the main focus.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Yeah, what you're talking that brings up a good point
because if the message should in a healthy church, the
message every Sunday, Yeah, should be whatever message the author
of that particular passage that you're studying wanted to give. Right,
whatever your point is should be the point that that
Paul is making in Second Corinthians, Sir Peter is making
(50:53):
in his first letter, or or Mark is making when
he when he wrote Mark in his story in chapter
for about the windstorm. We preach the point of the text,
not the world.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Yeah, not the current.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
But did your church bring it up?
Speaker 3 (51:10):
Though it brought up obviously a hurt and in the
confession time, so we had kind of have the time
right before. So typically do confession. That's where you it's
solo confession. This is not a I go to a
Baptist church, but it's a it's not a it's not
you go to a confessional. So I don't want to
think it's like that. It is a time for you
(51:30):
to reflect. What do I need to lay at the
feet of the cross before I come in here and
and ask the Lord to bless me with his word?
What do I need to reflect on in my life
from this week? And go, yeah, I know you were
dealing with me on that. Let's let's let's pray about
(51:50):
that right now.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
That's kind of that time.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
And that's where normally it's it's someone from the congregation
that gets up and does a prayer there. This week
it was our pastor and he said, I just want
to take this time right now for us to all
to one reflect not only on our lives, but what
our week has been since this past Wednesday and what
that is. You know, we live in a very divisive,
(52:14):
divisive world, and we can let anyone, even believers, can
be led to believe that we are that we are alone,
and now is the time that we need to change
our way of life. And in the fact of you know,
(52:36):
prayings not enough, we got to do more. That's never
what the word said. The word never said that. Do
you could you be more, get involved, more and more action?
Maybe could you have more conversations with people like let's
take just an example of what Charlie did do is
(52:56):
that you don't find this with many people in general,
but you definitely don't find it on both sides of
the aisle of there being two microphones in those settings,
one for him and one for anybody that wanted to
disagree with him. In fact, if you disagree, you moved
to the front of the line. Well, some of that
for clickbait, sure, because the argument got more traction than
(53:19):
the than the agreement, right, but it also was the
time to educate and a time to have conversation and
to find time to find Hey, let's talk through your
side and my side, and let's find some common ground here.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
You're not talking about your church anymore.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
No, no, no, I'm sorry, yes, yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
I did get off of that, but it was it
was what I would saying, is that that that could
lead you know, if you if you don't recenter on
what we're here this morning for, you can go that
direction and move off into other you know, this could
this could be the spiral out of out of control.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
So we have two places. The Word of exhortation we
talk about we can talk about events we can and
our pastoral prayer, yeah, which I did this past Sunday,
so we could use both of those. The word of
exhortation is also a place we could do baptism, and
what we did we flipped that on this past Sunday
(54:12):
and turn it into a lament, So we have a
prayer of lament and that enabled this story to fill that.
But then for the sermon, we have to go right
back into where we were, which this week was John nine.
So Marshall preached John nine at amais to you know,
picking up where we left off last week.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
We're in the sermon on the Mount. That's what we did.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
So we have to be fed, we have to grow.
We can't just be tossed around with every current event headline,
and that becomes the sermon, and that becomes the message.
So that's why I disagree with that message you wrote.
How far How long have we been doing this?
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Almost one hour?
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Okay if there's other things, but we should do another
podcast because because we need to get into the activation
of Charlie Kirk as well. I want to. I do
want to get in on it. Don't think we have
time today?
Speaker 3 (55:01):
Well yeah, I mean I think this is it's going
to be at the top of people's searches for a while,
this in the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
But yeah, and and really the what what I want
to get at is that is that the our adversary
is the devil. We read that earlier and Peter Paul
says that we do not wrest wrestle against flesh and blood.
So it's not people. It's not people we're hating. It's
not people that are that that we're here to resist.
(55:32):
You know that we don't see any anything like that
in the New Testament. Where are you going?
Speaker 3 (55:36):
We were doing Sermon on the Mount, I said the
week before all of this. Jesus teaches about retaliation and
about loving enemies, right before it all. That's very clear,
which we can get into the.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
Whole new episode. We should we should unpact that. Let
me say one more thing, because I always get I
always know if LDS comes up. The olva's witnesses don't
listen that much, but LDS a lot of LDS, and
so they get really mad when I say things like that.
And I just want to say that, if you're listening
(56:16):
right now, you're LDS. I love you. You're you are
such a big part of my ministry. You're on my heart.
You know that I have thoroughly gone through the Book
of Mormon with your brothers and sisters and a lot
of it. Right here we have a man nose. You
(56:36):
get a test. I have many books and Mormons. I
have them on here.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
Let us know in comments, that's why you say that.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
Highlighted written up notes taking you'd be because those are
the ones that come down when the elders of our
you know, our local elders LDS elders come over and
sit with us. And so there's been years of this
dialogue and it's always just great. So if anyone hates
me because of me saying that, or to say you're
(57:07):
a false church. Understand that when the elders are here,
we understand. I call you a false church and you
call me a false church. So your first prophet, Joseph
Smith definitely said that I am a false teacher in
my church is a false church damned to hell. So
we have mutual understanding with our our language here. So
(57:30):
this is not a hate speech or it's not because
I don't understand you you guys that this is just
we're speaking from an evangelical, biblical uh viewpoint on on
this podcast. So did I clear that up? Do you
think I did? Okay? I could hear the hate coming
my way. But and that's okay because I do love you.
(57:52):
But next episode, I don't know where we'll go, but
this is this is good stuff. We'll continue where So, man,
where was God with Charlie Kirk at the at his assassination?
Where was he?
Speaker 2 (58:06):
He was there?
Speaker 1 (58:07):
He was there?
Speaker 2 (58:08):
Amen, and on the throne and on the throne. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
Amen.
Speaker 4 (58:15):
See you guys, Ye, thank you so much for hanging
out with me on this episode of.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
The Grangersmith podcast. I appreciate you being here. If you're
listening right now, go ahead and rate today's podcast. It
helps more folks find the show, and if you're tuning
in on the iHeartRadio app, you could actually set this
podcast as one.
Speaker 4 (58:30):
Of your presets, which is cool that way. I'm just
one tap away. If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget
to hit like and subscribe so you don't miss any
new episodes. And if you got a question you want
answered right here on the show, just email me podcast
at grangersmith dot com.
Speaker 1 (58:44):
I'd love to hear from you. Thanks again for being here.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (58:47):
Yee
Host
Granger Smith
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