August 19, 2025 • 48 mins
How do I negotiate for more money? How do I speak up for better opportunities? How do I advance in my career if I’m an introvert? If you’re wondering how to advocate for yourself at work, hosts Lea Palmieri and Matt Stillo spoke with Jessica Chen, a speaker, communications expert and author of the book, “Smart, Not Loud: How to Get Noticed at Work for all the Right Reasons.” She offers tons of tips for communicating in meetings, over email, and even via body language, and how you can not only navigate but get ahead in the corporate world at any stage of your career. For more from Jessica, check out her podcast, Communicating Confidently.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Ruby.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Leah Palmery.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
And I'm Matt Stillo.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to Grown Up Stuff. We're your hosts of this
podcast because that's our job and no matter what your
job is. Today we're going to learn about how we
can make sure everyone knows you're amazing at it, including yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Everyone does need to know, and we're going to learn
the right way to let them know, including building your
own confidence in the workplace to be your best self
at any stage of your career that's right.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Today we're speaking with Jessica Chen, who's a communications expert,
the host of the podcast Communicating Confidently, and the author
of Smart Not Loud, How to Get Noticed at Work
for all the right reasons. She's going to help us
figure out how to best advocate for ourselves at work.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
So this means tips for negotiating your salary, asking for
a raise, and not just being aware of the words
you use, but the way in which you use them.
And let's just say, I think we all know a
few people who could use this episode.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yes we do, Matt, and we didn't get Jessica's take
on this, but I wonder if you can just drop
a link to this episode in your work slack and
everyone will get the message that they need to listen
and implement her tips.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, we'll see how that goes.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Okay, try and report back, okay, because I need to know.
But spoiler alert, Matt, I think maybe you'll be adding
that to your yay folder.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We'll see. But to learn more about what the yay
folder is and so much more about crushing it in
the workplace, here's Jessica Chen. Well.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Well, hi everyone. My name is Jessica Chen, and I'm
the author of the book Smart Not Loud, How to
Get noticed at work for all the right reasons. I'm
also the founder of a communications training company called soul
Casts Media. But prior to all of that, I used
to be a television journalist, so I worked at ABC,
NBC all in different parts of the country. And my
(01:59):
passion for teaching people communications is I just want people
to feel confident in how they communicate and express themselves.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So important and so needed, very much lack of confidence
in the country, wouldn't you say.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
More or less? Yes, I think all of us can
use a little bit more confidence anywhere everywhere.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I apologize for everything. Yeah, that's mainly what I do
is I'm just sorry all the time. But I agree.
I think that when people are starting their careers, the
confidence then can be difficult, right because you're in a
new environment, new boss, new everything, and you're kind of
like a new dog in a new house. Right, You're like,
what are the rules? When can my personality shine? You know?
And so first question to throw at you, what are
(02:42):
some of the biggest barriers that prevent people from you know,
maybe even not necessarily advocating, but like speaking of for themselves,
especially in a new job, and any extra special tips
for the introverts and the shy people.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yes, so I love talking about communications. But the reason
why is because I feel like a lot of times
we can walk into a new environment, just like you said, Matt,
and it's kind of like we look around and then
we start doubting ourselves. We're like, should I say that?
Should I not say that? Is it gonna sound silly?
Is it gonna sound dumb? Right, We're starting to create
this narrative in our own head where ultimately it mutes
(03:15):
ourselves from saying anything at all. And I will tell
you I used to be one of those people. In fact,
I remember in my early journalism days, we would have
our editorial meetings where we would be talking about the
stories we would cover, and all of us reporters we
would have to come in and pitch our stories. And
I remember I would be sitting in these meetings and
I'd be looking around to all my other colleagues, who
(03:37):
I thought were so smart, so amazing, and I would
feel like, gosh, my ideas are just not as good
as theirs. But over time I realized it wasn't that
it wasn't as good. It was that I was creating
this dialogue in my own head, which caused me to
not say what I actually wanted to say. You know,
I looked around and I would always see who were
(03:59):
the people that always got their ideas heard, Who are
the people that always got on the big projects. They
were the ones that always spoke with conviction. It wasn't
that their idea was better. It was that whatever it
was that they were saying, they believed it, they wanted it.
And I always say that energy carries and that's what
I always talk to people about. It's that energy and
(04:22):
that belief. And most of the time, if you're excited,
people are going to be excited to so is.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
There something that you wish at that point in your
career that somebody had told you, because we really want
to make sure people that are just starting out in
their careers are armed with this that they know here
are the things that I should be working on when
it comes to speaking up for myself. And on top
of that too, this is not something that is just
established at the beginning of your career, but throughout your career.
(04:49):
So are there other things tied to that advice as well, that,
like you've learned over the years and you think are
important for people to continue to use to build that muscle.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yes, So I think there's multiple ways in how we
can look at this. So the first one is ourselves
and the other one is the environment that we're in.
And I say environment in the sense, where are you
in an environment where people are encouraging you to share
what's on your mind, Because we certainly know of things
like psychological safety, right, you might have a terrible boss
who might constantly make you feel uncomfortable. So that's one part,
(05:20):
which we'll talk about later. But the thing that I
want to talk about first is the personality part. And
you mentioned the word introvert, and I'm an introvert myself,
and people are like, how can you be an introvert
if you teach communication? And I think it's because I
understand the struggle for a lot of us introverts. I
can talk about this. So when I first started working,
I mentioned speaking was really hard for me. And part
(05:41):
of it is my personality because I tend to like
to think things through. I tend to want to be
more cautious before I say what's on my mind. But
I think a lot of it was also the way
I was raised to tell you the truth. So I
grew up in a pretty conservative environment where my parents
were all about, hey, Jessica, there's only a few things
you gotta do. You gotta work card, you got to
study hard and try not to, you know, piss people
(06:03):
off and rock the boat.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Right.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
None of that really encouraged me to feel confident in speaking,
because in fact, it was always the opposite. It was
about listening, and we know listening is very important, but
it was almost listening to the fact where you had
to be deferential, meaning you had to be agreeable, meaning
you almost had to minimize yourself to make other people
feel better. And I remember even sometimes I would find
(06:28):
myself sitting in meetings and I would be so hyper
focused on things like, oh, they're more experienced than me,
therefore they must know more than me. I think that's
a very common thing. We call it power distance, where
you walk into a corporate environment and you see the
senior VP and you're just like, oh, I'm just like,
you know, two or three years into my career, can
(06:49):
I really say what's on my mind? Or am I
just supposed to sit here? And I think that power
distance can also make us feel sometimes quite uncomfortable. So
that's one thing where we are creating almost this dis
ourselves between feeling like, hey, we're in this room for
a reason, and yes, I might be let's say, more junior,
but it doesn't mean my opinions aren't valued. One other
(07:09):
thing I will say is I work with a lot
of very smart people who tend to want to be perfect.
They want everything to be perfect before they say something.
They want to make sure it's always valuable. And I
think that's fantastic. But what I always say is what's
valuable is actually quite subjective. You might think what's valuable
(07:29):
has to be something new, but what's valuable can be
you asking a question. It can be you reiterating what
somebody else said, it can be you acknowledging somebody else
on the team. But the fact is you saying something
in that meeting is already half the battle in you
building visibility. And I want people to really understand that,
especially for people who tend to be more quiet, because
(07:51):
people hearing your voice is so incredibly important.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I'm glad you mentioned about the power distance thing too,
because I feel like there are so many companies that
I where you sit in these meetings and they will say, well,
what is gen Z into? And so if you are
gen Z, say what you're into, because like they do
want the input from these young people that they are
trying to target. And so it's like, you know, still
be respectful and professional, but like your opinion and what
(08:15):
you're seeing online and what you're into and your behaviors.
There's so many companies trying to tap into that. You
have that experience just by being you and being your
age exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
And this is what I talk about in terms of
when you're in these meetings. There's a difference between active
listening and passive listening. So passive listening is exactly what
you think it's like you're sitting in that meeting, but
you really have no intention of actually saying something in
that meeting. But active listening is where you're listening to cues.
People actually are always throwing cues of when, hey, this
(08:47):
is my opportune time to say something. So Leah, you
said when people are talking about gen z and you're like,
wait a second, I know something about this. This is
my time. This is where you jump in. It's not
about just kind of taking a back seat. It's like,
you know something, you got to say something.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So what can people do to really, like, you know,
kind of reclaim that. How would you encourage people to
push past those feelings that the power distance that you
were talking about and actually, like Garner, the wherewithal to
like actually speak up.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
So there's a few tips. When people tend to feel
very intimidated about speaking up, I tend to say, if
you can speak up earlier in a meeting, it's better
than speaking up later. And the reason why is because
oftentimes when we sit in this meeting, five minutes go by,
ten minutes go by, fifteen minutes go by, and all
of a sudden, the meeting's over and you never said
(09:34):
a thing. There's something really powerful about being early and
saying something. And again it doesn't have to be that
brilliant fireworks of an idea. It can be just you
saying something. But the idea is using your voice early
in a meeting gets you comfortable to use it later
on in a meeting. So I think that's a huge
barrier that once we can overcome that early on, it
(09:56):
makes it easier to then kind of be and feel
like you're a part of the comment. And one of
the things I always say is, of course being in
an environment where you are encouraged to speak up, where
you're encouraged to share your idea, is so important. But
if you feel like people are not giving you that chance,
then learning the communication skills to find and figure out
(10:17):
how to chime in. And there's actually some tips in
the book that I talk about, but like finding those
ways to chime in and add your thoughts, add your
two cents is really important. Let me just say, even
saying simple things like the person's name, so you're signaling
to the other person like, hey, I have an idea,
it's acknowledging, and acknowledging is not agreeing, it's just like, hey, Leah,
(10:38):
that was actually a really interesting idea and it made
me think of A B and C. Right, So it's
like I'm part of the conversation. It's not like I'm
like bulldozing it in any sort of way.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
And then kind of like the flip side of that, right. So,
like a lot of people worry that like advocating for yourself,
speaking up, saying your mind might make them seem like pushy, overbearing.
What is your way to like reframe that mindset?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I love that question, Matt, because a lot of times
people are like, oh, advocating for yourself can feel very
selfish sometimes, right, It's like can I even ask for
what I want? Should I even ask for what I want?
And a lot of times people are very considerate as
well as like, oh, maybe now is not the right time.
So the way I think about advocating for yourself is
very simple. I believe it is a must do, not
(11:26):
a nice to do, because at the end of the day,
you are going to be your best advocate. It's almost
unfair to put that on your manager to remember you,
your colleagues, to remember the things that you're doing, whatever
it is that you care about, you have to be
your own best cheerleader. So one of the things that
I wanted to share is in the book, I have
(11:48):
this like framework of okay, so what do you actually do?
Because I think a lot of us conceptually understand advocating
for yourself. Okay, I get what that means, but what
and how do I actually do it? So I put
it into this nice and cute little acronym call ACCT.
You got to act at work because that's part of
advocating for yourself. So it stands for a ask. You
(12:10):
got to ask for what you want. That's part of
advocating for yourself. But not just asking, it's c circling
back whatever it is you asked for, you gotta circle back,
you gotta follow up. Many times, when we put ourselves
out there, we ask for what we want. We're kind
of like, okay, good, I ask for what I want
case clothes, Like I'm done right now. The ball is
(12:31):
in their court. But the truth is people are busy.
They got like their own things that they got to do.
They got their own list of two duos, right You
asking is what I often say, is you just planting
that little seed in that person's head. And plus that
person might not even have the answer right away, so
circling back is very important. The third one is also
a C and that stands for celebrate Celebrate your wins.
(12:54):
This is my favorite one because I feel like advocating
for yourself is part of celebrating the amazing work that
you're doing, and I often feel like we don't do
that enough. Celebrating can be things like letting other people
know what you did, letting other people know what you're
excited about. And it doesn't have to be this long
winded answer of like, oh my gosh, look at this
amazing thing. It's just like maybe you forwarding a message
(13:15):
to your manager and being like, hey, I'm really excited
about this. You're not expecting them to say anything, but
you're just letting them know that you're happy about this.
The last one is a TEA and it stands for
turn down request, basically saying no.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
How do we do that? Yeah? Yeah, that's something I've
never learned how to say yes.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
There's a whole section in the book of like how
do you say no? And there's like a few ways
to go about it, but the idea is when you
say no, it's not about no it's about giving people options.
Because when you give people options of like, hey, I'm
not the best person for this, but maybe talk to
this person, maybe look at this right you're letting people
know that you're still trying to help them solve the
(13:54):
problem that they need help solving. It's just that you're
not the best person for this right now. And I
think tone of voice is a huge part of this
as well. But I do believe saying no is part
of advocating for yourself. ACCT I love ACCT love are yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Love an acronym and love everything that it stands for
and does and accomplishes as well. On top of that too,
I think sometimes when we're thinking about advocating for ourselves,
we want to make sure that we're getting the credit.
Like I love being part of a team, but I
also like for my colleague credit. Yeah I bought that
what I did, because also I think it helps build
(14:31):
my own confidence to be like, oh, actually, you know
what I did this? So what are the ways that
are the best for us to be documenting and communicating
our impact on a team but without seeming so self
promotional to everyone and territorial even too, Like how do
we consistently do this, not just around our performance review
(14:51):
time or around big projects, but just consistently throughout the year,
making sure we're documenting and letting people know like hey,
I snagged this much snails, I got this sponsor, I
got this person to come speak, or whatever the winds
may be.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yes, okay, this is what you.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Need to do.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Leah and Matt. You gotta go and create a yay
folder or yay no truly, like this is what I
talk about. Go into your inbox and create a folder
and call it your yay folder. And anytime you do
some amazing work somebody says great job, congratulations, you secured
(15:29):
that deal or whatever. Right, you take that email and
you drag it into this yay folder so that when
you know performance review comes, or when you are now
asking for what you want, you have evidence and documentation
of the amazing work that you're doing, which gives you
more credibility to ask for what you want. I think
a lot of us like we're busy, Like let's be real,
(15:51):
like we're juggling all these different things, and like you
get a great email and you're like, oh, I feel
good about it. But then you move on to the
next thing, because we got things to do, right, But
I do believe documenting you said, it's Leah like documenting
and putting it into one place is really important so
that you remember where it is. And Hey, if you're
having a crappy day and you're like, god, why do
people not appreciate the work that I'm doing, you just
(16:12):
open your yay folder and you have all the evidence
there too. That works as well.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I like it for that reason. First, it's just my
own little confidence boost. Okay, so before I even have
a yay folder at a job, and I've just landed
a job and now it's time for me to do
my salary negotiations, what's the best way to prepare ourselves
for that conversation?
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Prepare, Prepare, prepare. And it's not just preparing, it's about
putting yourself in the other person's shoot, meaning you know
you're going to ask for that race. So if you're
talking to your manager, think about why they might be hesitant,
think about why they might say no. I want you
to even like write this out on a piece of paper.
(16:55):
And this is great because you're doing this on your
own time and you're almost kind of playing devil's advocate
of like why they might be resistant to it, so
that with every single bullet point that you have, you
write down a reason to counter that, so that when
you're having this conversation with them, and in that conversation
they might not say like no, but you having the
talking points to address their concerns can help you in
(17:19):
a way like bolster your claim of asking for that race.
And I think, like a lot of times, what I
have realized about what makes people great communicators it is
really anticipating what other people are going to say and
knowing what your response is going to be. A lot
of times people walk into a meeting kind of blinded
or just hoping for the best. But I do feel
like preparing and understanding where the person's coming from, what
(17:43):
are their concerns, what can I do to make their
job easier can help you make your case so much better.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
I also think that it's important to know what you
don't know. Like the first time I was like, actually
in this, I didn't really realize I was in negotiation
until that I was like, oh, I think they were
like offering me the job, Okay, I didn't know that,
Like everything is a negotiation, And so knowing that, like
when you get that first job, salary negotiation is on
the table, like negotiating work perks are on the tables,
Like what is on the table for us when we're
(18:11):
going into an interview, you know, and maybe they are
going to offer us a job on the spot.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Matt, you said something so amazing. Everything is a negotiation,
not just even when you're like talking about a new job.
If you're talking about a new project, you wanting to
get on a new project, that is also a negotiation,
and we may not think of it in that formal sense.
And I want people to think about it this way.
Let's say like you're already in the job and there's
like a project that you are perhaps interested in getting on,
(18:39):
and let's say like it's already been staffed, like there's
already people, but you're like, God, I really want to
get on this project because I know it's going to
help my career, and plus it is something that I'm
interested in. So I want you to think about what's
the give and take. It's that give and take and
what you can communicate during that meeting with your manager,
because it's not about oh, they're saying, hey, Jessica, sorry,
we don't have room for a you, or we don't
(19:00):
have you know, the time. Whatever. It's thinking about, well,
what other ways can I get into this project? Maybe
think about it as like the back door, right, So
maybe that front door isn't there, but maybe you can
offer some other things you can do to help that
project indirectly, So you're in a way still showing that
you're interested, that you still want to contribute. But it
(19:22):
might not be in that initial proposal or in that
initial offer that you wanted. But I guarantee there are
other ways for you, for all of us to add
value to something that we want That might not be
explicitly laid out, but it takes you being creative so
that you can still attach yourself to the things that
you want to do. I think that's really important. So
I always say no is never case closed, it's just
(19:45):
how do you find another way? And I think that
mentality is so important, and also things like building resilience, right,
not taking things personally, and always feeling that there are
other ways around it.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
We'll be right back after a quick break.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
And we're back with more grown up stuff. How do
I don't?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So let's talk a little bit about like a performance
review time. How should people first of all take a
day breath prepare for these conversations so that they're able
to maximize their impact. You know, is this as simple
as just here's my YAE folder, here's all the amazing
wins I've had, or like, what are the other factors
and things to really be considering when we're asking for
(20:35):
more money for the job we're doing.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
So, okay, you're sitting at this table and now you
want to make that big ask And here's the thing.
Sometimes you might get that raise immediately. Sometimes it's just
not going to happen. But what I do think is
that you are preparing your manager for the conversation where
it's like, this is what I'm working towards, this is
what I care about, and this is the proof for
(20:57):
why I deserve it. So what I have found that
has helped a lot of people get to that next level,
whether it's title or whether it's more money, it's coming
up with ideas to show that you are contributing to
the team. I think a lot of times we can
go into work and we're just going to be doing
what we're told to do. You're hired for a role.
(21:17):
You do this role. But what I have found people
who truly accelerate are people who are constantly offering new ideas.
Bring that energy, that enthusiasm into this meeting of like,
I'm here, I'm a team player, I want to contribute.
These are the things that I care about and I
know can help. And I feel like that enthusiasm, whether
or not you're getting that raise immediately, can show that, hey,
(21:39):
this is what I can bring. Maybe you can't give
me that raise right now, but let's revisit this conversation
in two months, in three months. And I think setting
that stage is important because when you do bring it
up later on because you didn't get it, let's say initially,
when you have that and when you revisit that conversation again,
it's not so abroad because your manager already knows, like, hey, yes,
(22:02):
Jessica was going to follow up with me on this.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Another thing that people talk about a lot when talking
about like negotiations, raises and stuff like that is to
do a lot of like research, you know, market research
on like what these positions are typically paid, depending on
the type of job it is and the area that
you live in and the cost of living and all
that stuff like how much do you recommend that people
do that? Like, are those like receipts so to speak,
important to bring to these discussions? And if so, where
(22:27):
do you advise people go look for that information.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
There's tons of information out there on this. But the
one thing I always tell people when it comes to negotiating,
always ask for ten percent at least ten percent more
of what you find. Ten percent I feel as that
safe spot of like you know you're asking for more.
They might not give you that ten percent. You might
meet maybe like five, six, seven percent, but always overshoot
(22:50):
so that when you come down at least it's meeting
in the middle ground. But to your point, Matt, yes,
it's doing the research understanding. Are you being underpaid right
or are you kind of like where the market it is?
And here, let me say this, if you are kind
of like where the market is still ten percent, ask
for ten percent more because you want to always do
more so that when you eventually land it feels like
(23:12):
a little bit better from where you are at now.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
It's so true, Like I'm going to tell this story
and I tell this to everyone, and please learn from
my mistake. I did not do this research. The first
time I actually ever asked for a raise, and when
I presented my then boss the number, they laughed in
my face and said you could have got more, and
then proceeded to not give me more. And so I
(23:36):
really made a vow. I was like, the next time
this happens, you will not be laughing. You will be
strategizing a way to keep me on as an employee.
And so like, yeah, to your point, like, always ask
for more because no one ever wants to pay you
more and they're always gonna walk you down. So be
walked down from a ridiculous number, not the number that
you wanted.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
I totally agree. And it's not that they don't like
love you or they wouldn't want to like give it
to you, just that they're expecting you to ask for it. Right,
So wait, do they seriously laugh at your face? Matt?
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Like were they like, yeah, it was awful, it was
like the worst day ever.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Oh no, he's learned and we've all learned.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
We've learned. So yeah, yeah, learned from my mistake. That's
all I can say.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, And I think also there's like something really powerful
too about feeling like if you're not going to get
what you want, it's okay to also walk away. I
think about like my own work, and for me in
my role as the founder of my company, we're negotiating
contracts all the time, and trust me, I've gotten turned
down many, many times, and I've gotten turned down in
the sense where they totally would be like, no, we
(24:36):
only have this little of a quote unquote budget to
do it. And for me, even though I would feel like,
should I still do it for that price, it feels
kind of like no. If they're not willing to pay
X amount or whatever it is, it's okay. There's going
to be other opportunities. And similarly, on the flip side,
I've also pitched a contract with X amount and I
(24:57):
was like, oh my god, that is way more than
I I've ever asked for before too, and they've come
back and said, sure, you just never know. And I
think my belief is everything always works out in the end,
but you never know what you're working with unless you
really ask for what it is. And at the end
of the day, you want to ask for what feels
good to you too, Right, So if somebody's gonna lowball
you something and you accept it, are you gonna feel happy.
(25:20):
You have to think about it that way as well.
But in your mind, you have to know what's the
leverage here, right, Like, yes, it might not be the number,
but it could be the company itself that can get
you to that next level. So you just have to
be very smart and clear minded with what you're trying
to do and where you're wanting to go.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Is it chill to like ask your coworkers what they make?
Is that an okay thing to do, just to kind
of like know where you stand and by the way,
in no way am I saying if you get this
information you should use it to say, hey, my coworker
makes as much money I should too. I mean, well,
I'm sure that there's some situations where you know, two
(25:57):
people have the exact same job and they make fast
different salaries that that isn't something that should be rectified.
It might, you know, depending on the situation. All I'm
saying is I think it's a bad argument to make
to your boss saying hey, this person makes X, I
should make X. Your argument instead should be, hey, I
work across X number of dollars on X number of projects,
(26:18):
and that's why I deserve to make this much money.
But anyway, all that aside, I am curious to hear
from your perspective, like, is asking your coworkers what their
salaries are? Is that a chill thing to do.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
I don't think there's like a black and white like
yes or no. I do think a lot of it
is dependent on like how comfortable you are with them
and how comfortable they are with you. And I do
think a lot of it is like how you ask
to write if you have an awesome like relationship with
your colleague. And I think a lot of it's also
context too, like not having this conversation in passing, but
(26:51):
like maybe you're getting lunch, You're sitting down and you're like, hey,
so I'm planning to ask during performance review that I
want to raise. Do you feel like what you getting
paid is like fair? Are you thinking about potentially asking
for more? You know, during performance review? Because we're all
going through this right now, and it's kind of like
I guess testing the water a little bit. But if
you have somebody who you're like pretty comfortable with, you
(27:13):
can just say, like, I'm willing to share what it
is I make, would you be willing to share too?
So it's like a mutual thing. Yeah, And it's almost
kind of like, let's share this together. So we both
are basically in a way like helping each other. And
I do think that there's something really valuable to that.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
But be prepared to feel real weird.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
We actually find yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I've done this before. It can go great or not great. Yes.
So let's just say, like you're asking your managers, hey,
you know, I want to talk about a raise or
I want to talk about a performance review. To kind
of get to the discussion of talking about a raise,
when is it appropriate to walk away? Like I feel
like someone can only be told no so many times,
or like now it's not the right time or whatever.
When do you know that you should leave?
Speaker 3 (27:53):
I think there are a few markers, really, and I
think a lot of it comes down to also the
things that you value. There's a chap or my book
where I talk about building your career brand, and basically
it's like what do you want to be known for
and what you want to be known for or should
align with the things that you care about. Let's say
one of the things that you value is growth. You
want to always make sure you are getting on projects,
(28:16):
that's helping you grow, it's helping you learn. And if
you feel like you've reached a point at your current
job where the work isn't stimulating, then I think that's
a sign because what you value that's not happening, So
maybe it's time to look elsewhere. Another example is let's
say you value financial stability, and if you're feeling like
(28:38):
you're having these conversations of negotiating, you're asking for more
and your manager's not giving it to you, then maybe
that's time, right. So I think the question really comes
down to what it is that you value. What is
it that you care about. Is your job giving it
to you? And if not, can you do something about
it at your current place? If not, then it's time
(28:59):
to look elsewhere. And I think for many of us,
if we're fortunate enough to be in a place where
we have a job and we can still look elsewhere,
that's even better, right, so that when something better comes along,
then you can leave. So I think it comes down
to what do you value?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, you can only be told oh, we don't have
the budget so many times before you're like, well, I
got to find somewhere that does have the budget. Because
I am worth it, so by.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Or find someone who sees the value and me that
what I'm bringing to the table, you know, obviously, like
no one's seeing it here exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I also think that the YA folder I really like
because sometimes it is a really good reminder of oh, yeah,
I'm good at my job, and look at this amazing
impact I've had. I think obviously salary is a huge
part of a job, but also your manager is maybe
the most important part. What are things that people should
be looking for in a supportive manager and how do
(29:51):
you make sure that your manager is accurately advocating for
you to their manager.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I love that you bring this up, Leah, because I
feel like there is nothing more important than having a
manager who supports you. You can do the best darn
work ever, but if your manager doesn't see you, doesn't
appreciate the work that you do, you don't feel like
they respect you. It doesn't matter if you're going two
(30:16):
hundred miles an hour right They're never going to, in
your words, like, advocate for you. And I want to say,
if any of you feel like you're in a situation
like this right now where you can kind of feel
like things aren't really good between you and your manager.
There's nothing more than I can say than start looking elsewhere.
But actually it's not that you have to switch jobs,
(30:37):
switch companies. It could be you getting on another team
because I have found when you quote unquote suck it
up and just be like it's fine, like I'll just
get through it, you're not just like not accelerating, you're
actually slowing down. You're slowing down your career progression because
think about the time you are wasting because you are
(30:58):
doing all this work. It's not being appreciate, it's not
helping you. And that almost compounds in that way where
you're kind of like getting behind, more behind and more behind.
So to your point, yes, finding a good manager is
so important, you know, finding a place, a position, a
team where you feel supported, because that's really the most important.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about not
just advocating for yourself, but advocating for others because I think,
you know, obviously like saying I'm amazing is great, but
like when you're able to say, like, you know, Bob
is amazing, and Sarah is amazing, Bob.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Is amazing, Bob's so great at his job.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I think that also really selfishly shows your impact because
you are a team player and you're noticing everybody else's
skills that they're bringing to But you know, what can
you say about really being an ally and advocating for
colleagues to really help yourself as well on a team.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Yes, I love this question because I mentioned that I'm
more of an introverted person. But I was even more
introverted when I first started working, so much so that
I was like the quiet person, like the quiet girl
in the meeting, right. But I do remember that there
were certain colleagues who would shout out the work that
I would do, and it wouldn't be like awkward. It
(32:13):
would just be like, you know, somebody be like, hey, Jessica,
like awesome job on like whatever AB and C project,
and you know that person would just say it. And
I struggled with advocating for myself, but it made such
a huge difference in my own confidence when I saw
somebody else do it. So that now when I see
people who tend to be more quiet, when I see
people who tend to not like to talk about themselves,
(32:35):
I almost try to remind other people like shouting out
their work, but not just that giving them that runway
to speak is actually you advocating for them as well.
So think about it like this way, Like you have
somebody who tends to be quiet on the team, but
you love them, You think they're awesome, you think that
they're doing amazing work, and you almost are like, oh gosh,
(32:55):
I wish they would also say something too, because I
want people to appreciate them. Right, One of the things
that you can do is create that runway, and that
essentially just means like, Hey, Leah, we just had that
like conversation, that one on one meeting. Can you tell
folks what it is that we talked about, because I
think it was so awesome, you know, just creating that
runway for the other person. Suddenly, when you have somebody
(33:19):
advocating for you, it's kind of like you have that buddy,
and that's awesome. I think that's a great thing for
any of us to do.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
And this is a big dynamic in your book, Smart
Not Loud. Can you talk a little bit more about
those dynamics and how they played into like your personal
story and how you see them played out in the
workplace in general.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yeah, So I wrote this book for people who are
so smart, so hard working, but do find it very
hard to communicate they are maybe in an environment And
this was myself, like I was, you know, working in media,
you have a lot of like big personality people, people
who are very assertive, and that was my experience and
I struggled when I first started because I didn't know
(33:58):
how to find my voice, so to speak. So it's like,
you're smart, but you're not loud. But the subtitle is
how do you get noticed at work for the right reasons?
Because at the end of the day, that takes work,
that takes being proactive. So the first part of the
book is really getting people who feel this, how do
you change your mindset around it. It's not about oh,
(34:19):
if you're quiet, you got to be loud, or if
you're loud, you got to be quiet. You know, I'm
not telling people you got to change yourself, but I
do tell people you do have to change your mentality
of certain things. And I won't walk through it in detail,
but mindset is important. And then the other part of
it is like, how do you get noticed at work?
You got to be really clear on what do you
want to be known for? How do you build credibility
(34:41):
in the workplace, how do you advocate for yourself? Those
are all chapters in the book. And I believe all
this stuff doesn't mean anything unless you know how to
communicate well. And that's the last part of the book,
that's part three, and it's things like what do you say,
how do you say say it? Body language? Right, Like
(35:02):
all this are elements of communication. So this book is
like really to help people who might not be able
to communicate to their value. Well, that's what this book
is about.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
One of the biggest things I say to people is like,
if you're early on in your career and you find
that there's a challenge for you a read Jessica's book,
just do that, but be I always think that like
doing something completely out of your comfort zone, they can
kind of just like in a safe environment. I generally
recommend people to take improv classes, Like if you've got
an improv class in your city near you, like that
can be a great way to like a scare the
Bejesus out of yourself, but be like get outside of
(35:35):
the bounds of like what is normally comfortable for you,
because like that's what life is. We're all just improving, right,
And so if you can kind of like set some
dedicated time to work on that for yourself. I think
that that can like pay huge dividends for people like
who you're describing.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Improv is amazing because it gets you to do something
you're not comfortable doing. But I actually always tell people,
because I do a lot of like public speaking training
and whatnot, that that's really what it is, like knowing
how to command the tension of an audience right, And
a lot of it does have to come down to
the impromptu aspect of it, because how many of us,
like prepare for a presentation, We literally write out our
(36:10):
script right, and now you're presenting, and then you forget
your word and then you start to fumble and you
start to stumble, and it's just like, oh my god,
now it feels like a train wreck. But I do
think you know, to your point, Matt, I do think
that helps you find your ground quickly, especially when things
don't go as planned. So yes, one hundred percent agree,
it's a muscle totally well.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
On the opposite of improv too, I did want to
touch a little bit on the things that we can
control and can be like, you know, very particular about
are there any tips that you can share with us
about communicating. When it comes to ensuring that our body language,
our tonees mind tend to roll a lot. Our words
(36:49):
are all powerful and professional, both in person and also
in online communications because we're doing a lot on slack,
we're doing a lot on email. This is not just
sitting in a room having a meeting, but all around.
How can we make sure that we are presenting ourselves
physically and with words that is professional, but it is
also like firm and getting our point across but not
(37:10):
stepping out of line.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Let's say, great question, so let's start with tone of voice.
You know, it's really interesting because every time I talk
about teaching people to adjust their tone of voice, people
often say, well, is it my tone just kind of
like what I sound like, or is it just like
if I'm screaming at somebody or if I'm like whispering right,
But actually, in the communications world, we say that there
(37:31):
are five elements that go into your tone of voice,
and I'll walk you all through them. The first one
is your pitch, so the pitch of your voice, and
that basically means how high your voices or how low.
And women we just tend to have higher pitches. Men
tend to have lower pitches. But what I teach is
we actually have a range. And you might be familiar
(37:53):
with this term, but like speaking with your diaphragm, speaking
from like your stomach, to have that gravitas, that's pitch, right,
And when we talk about making sure people understand the
impact of your message, that variety is key. When you're excited,
you have a higher pitch. When you're having a serious tone,
it's lower. We have a range. The second one is
your rate, how fast you're speaking or how slow. Most
(38:18):
people when they're nervous, they're like speaking really fast, right,
But it's not about speaking slowly because if you're talking
so slow, it's like boring, honestly. So the key here
is variety. The other one is what we call your inflection.
So what words do you want emphasized? So like a
lot of us, we never think about it this way,
(38:40):
but when you are trying to convey a message to somebody,
you have a choice of what words you want emphasized.
A lot of times people just kind of like talk
and talk, But if you want people to like digest
a certain key point, that requires you to inflect certain words.
The other element is intensity, how loud or how soft.
(39:02):
How loud you're speaking is like yelling, how soft is
like whispering, And it's about variety. The last one is
the quality of your voice. So that basically means do
you tend to have more raspy, hoarse, squeaky? And that
of the five is what we say you cannot change.
So it's like when someone calls you, they're like, oh
(39:22):
it's Leah, it's Matt, like they know it's you. But
what we always say is when you communicate, you can
control the four and you should because that's what sounds interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
And what about power stance?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Oh love a power post?
Speaker 1 (39:35):
How do you feel about power stance in the office?
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yeah, go what you're like, arm on your head, your
hand on your head all the time?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Right?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
I will tell you that there is something to be
said about space and how you take up space in
a meeting. And it's not about like hey, let me
hog up, let me like open my hands, like my
arm's wide. But it's about when you're sitting in your seat,
not like scrunching yourself. There's something also to be said
about like and I'm talking about like in person meetings.
Right when you're in a meeting sitting in your seat
(40:05):
like you own the seat. There's also something to be
said about where you sit. A lot of times when
people feel intimidated, they just kind of find the back
seat where they can kind of like hide in that
corner and they can quietly just like take down notes.
I always say, you know, when you're in a meeting,
you want people to see you. So it's not that
you have to like sit in the very front or
sit next to like that client that's visiting, but at
(40:28):
least position yourself in a way where people can see you.
And this is a huge part of the book. It's
about building visibility. Part of it is it's not who
you know, it's who knows you that can really open
doors for you. And part of like you know, where
you sit, how you sit is how they perceive you,
and that's part of that perception. So body language does
(40:48):
play a huge part in it.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
To two final questions, one thing actually I wanted to
chat with you brought up and this actually really pertains
to my wife. So my wife is one of those
people who she works on an international team and a
lot of them are in Europe. And she's actually by
yourself in the United States, and so she does feel
the thing where she's left out and she doesn't necessarily
feel part of the team. And I guess my question is,
how can you advocate for yourself when you're in a
position of like you're completely remote, you're never in person,
(41:12):
You're always the person who's you know, a box on
a screen on someone else's office. Like advice for people
in that situation.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Gosh, it is hard. So in a situation like that
where like everybody is situated in one location, you're in
the other location, I do believe number one. And this
also makes people feel like kind of uncomfortable. But like
I do think it's important for them to see you
when you are in these remote team meetings. So it
really is something as simple as like turning your camera on.
(41:39):
And I know some organizations require some organizations don't, but
I do think that there is value in you turning
your camera on so that they can see your face.
As humans, that's how we connect with other people. Yes,
you know, we can have that box whatever, right, and
you know it's easier, let's be real to have our
cameras off in these meetings. But if you're in a
remote situation or if it is a what I call
(42:01):
like a higher stakes meeting, you know, having your camera
on can allow them to see you and really just
like build that connection with you. The other thing is
using like the chat functions so that they can still
see that you're engaging like of course if other people
are using the chat engage in it. It's just trying
to find those opportune times to get your name out
there for people to see you, for people to hear you.
(42:22):
One other thing that I say is important is this
is where one on one connection does make a huge difference. So,
like to your point, Matt, having and establishing those meetings,
these like catch up meetings with people you know, people
who you might not regularly meet but you would want
to get to know them better. Trying to carve out
time to schedule that one on one chat with them.
(42:42):
I do think it helps them keep you top of mind,
because that's the biggest challenge right that we're talking about.
When you're remote, it's easy for people to not remember
you at a sight out of mind, right, So for
you it does take that extra ten to fifteen percent
of effort for you to find those ways to include yourself.
But here's another thing. Tell people that you want to
(43:04):
be included in you know, certain meetings where you are
finding yourself not being included. And if it's like certain
projects that you want to get on, you can even
let them know, like hey, I'm happy to jump on
a call during this time because they might be thinking, oh,
we don't want to bother Jessica, right, like they're creating
this narrative. But if you're like, no, no, no, no, like
I actually want to be a part of it, and
(43:25):
you say that, then they know. You know, the one
thing is that you cannot assume people know what you're thinking.
Whatever it is that you want, you got to make
it known. That's how they're going to know.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
And to your point Jessica that like you don't know
what's on the table until you ask for it. I
was like, they keep telling you that you can come
to like some stuff in Europe, just tell them that
you want to come. And she ended up going and
she was like there for a full week and she
was like, I'm really really glad that I did that.
The human connection is just so important, especially when it
comes to advocating for you, Like people have to get
to know you as a human and that was a
huge thing for her. And so I think if anyone
(43:56):
is in the situation and meetings are going on, ask
if you can come. You know, companies have the budget
to fly you out most of the time.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Yeah, you just got to ask.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Speaking of asking, I'd like to ask you, is there
anything we didn't touch on here yet today that you
think is important for people to know that, are you know,
really ready to speak up for themselves at work?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
You know?
Speaker 3 (44:15):
The one thing that I would say, and I always
like to end with this, you know, we talked about
asking for what you want. We talked about negotiating, we
talked about building visibility, We talked about all the things
that are really important for our career but we often forget.
But the one thing that I want people to try
to do more is celebrating the work that you are doing.
And I love talking about this because for most of us,
(44:38):
we work hard. For most of us, like we generally
like the work that we do. We enjoy it, and
we like to just get things done right. But oftentimes
we forget to step back and go like, I'm actually
doing great work here. And that's where the celebration comes.
It doesn't have to be this grand thing and the celebrating,
Like I said, it can be you letting people know
about it. It can be you forwarding a message, It
(45:00):
can be you pinging your colleagues on Slack. Any of
that stuff I believe is celebrating. It's just letting people
know that you're excited about something, and I guarantee they'll
be excited. But aside from letting your colleagues know, even
outside of work, you know, when you're going back home,
you're talking to your wife, your husband, your boyfriend, your girlfriend. Right,
if there's like a deal that you just closed, pop
(45:21):
open that champagne. You know, Like, I really think that
there is like value in doing things like that, And
you might not think it's important, but I truly feel
like life is so short, like really like you have
to find these opportune times to celebrate because when else
are you going to do it?
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Right? Absolutely, If this isn't good.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, what is?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah? Jessica, Before we let you go, can you let
everyone know where they can find you and more of
your brilliant thoughts and work?
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Oh my gosh, well my books smart not loud? How
to get noticed I'd work for all the right reasons.
It's in bookstores everywhere. You can find on Amazon, Barnes,
and Noble. And if any of this really resonated with you,
all like this book is filled with all these golden
nuggets to really help you communicate to build visibility, so
check that out. I am most active on LinkedIn, so
(46:09):
if you listen to this episode you love it, add
me on LinkedIn let me know you heard it, or
on Instagram, so just type in my name Jessica Chen
and you can find me there.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Amazing, Jessica, thank you so much for spending this time
with us. I know people are going to get a
lot of value out of this conversation. These are the
conversations we just don't really have all the time, and
they are important to have, so thank you for being
with us.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Oh I'm putting this conversation in my yay folder immediately, so.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
Yes, yes, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
This is awesome.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Thank you, Jessica. Okay, Matt, tell me about a recent
addition to your yay folder.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
A recent addition to my ya folder is hiring and
working with one of the best post production coordinators out there,
ad the Aguilar, who is in the studio with us
right now. Amazing, and Abby doesn't want to be on
mid right, but we've been working together. She's been getting
trained out. She's recording the session right now, and I'm
so so happy to have Abby at our team. That's
going in my yaye folder. What about you?
Speaker 2 (47:12):
That was a good one. That was a really good one.
I got a nice Slack message from someone appreciating that
I helped them with a project. So I took a
little screenshot of that.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Nice people say nice things about your work.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah, it's very nice.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
So nice. Someone did that recently. They sent me a
long email and I was like, this is the kindest
thing anyone's ever seen. And it made me go like
I should do this more. I should just randomly be
super kind of people, because it like made my year.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Yeah, even when people do like a pretty okay job,
let them know they did a good job and like.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
It means yeah, it doesn't mean a lot.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
That's our tips.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Well. I hope you have many more editions in your
yay folder before we're back with our next episode in
two weeks.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
That's right, and until next time, good luck being a
grown up.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
This is a production of Ruby Studio from My Heart Media.
Our executive producers are Leo Palmery and.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
That's still This episode was edited and engineered by Sierra.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Spreen, and we'd like to thank our team at Ruby Studio,
including Sarah You, Ethan Fixel, Rachel Swan, krasnov Lydia, Kim Harper, Wayne,
Deborah Garrett, Salia Vra Plug, Abby Aguilar, and Andy Kelly
Ruby.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Leah Palmery.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
And I'm Matt Stillo.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to Grown Up Stuff. We're your hosts of this
podcast because that's our job and no matter what your
job is. Today we're going to learn about how we
can make sure everyone knows you're amazing at it, including yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Everyone does need to know, and we're going to learn
the right way to let them know, including building your
own confidence in the workplace to be your best self
at any stage of your career that's right.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Today we're speaking with Jessica Chen, who's a communications expert,
the host of the podcast Communicating Confidently, and the author
of Smart Not Loud, How to Get Noticed at Work
for all the right reasons. She's going to help us
figure out how to best advocate for ourselves at work.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
So this means tips for negotiating your salary, asking for
a raise, and not just being aware of the words
you use, but the way in which you use them.
And let's just say, I think we all know a
few people who could use this episode.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yes we do, Matt, and we didn't get Jessica's take
on this, but I wonder if you can just drop
a link to this episode in your work slack and
everyone will get the message that they need to listen
and implement her tips.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, we'll see how that goes.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Okay, try and report back, okay, because I need to know.
But spoiler alert, Matt, I think maybe you'll be adding
that to your yay folder.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We'll see. But to learn more about what the yay
folder is and so much more about crushing it in
the workplace, here's Jessica Chen. Well.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Well, hi everyone. My name is Jessica Chen, and I'm
the author of the book Smart Not Loud, How to
Get noticed at work for all the right reasons. I'm
also the founder of a communications training company called soul
Casts Media. But prior to all of that, I used
to be a television journalist, so I worked at ABC,
NBC all in different parts of the country. And my
(01:59):
passion for teaching people communications is I just want people
to feel confident in how they communicate and express themselves.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So important and so needed, very much lack of confidence
in the country, wouldn't you say.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
More or less? Yes, I think all of us can
use a little bit more confidence anywhere everywhere.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I apologize for everything. Yeah, that's mainly what I do
is I'm just sorry all the time. But I agree.
I think that when people are starting their careers, the
confidence then can be difficult, right because you're in a
new environment, new boss, new everything, and you're kind of
like a new dog in a new house. Right, You're like,
what are the rules? When can my personality shine? You know?
And so first question to throw at you, what are
(02:42):
some of the biggest barriers that prevent people from you know,
maybe even not necessarily advocating, but like speaking of for themselves,
especially in a new job, and any extra special tips
for the introverts and the shy people.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yes, so I love talking about communications. But the reason
why is because I feel like a lot of times
we can walk into a new environment, just like you said, Matt,
and it's kind of like we look around and then
we start doubting ourselves. We're like, should I say that?
Should I not say that? Is it gonna sound silly?
Is it gonna sound dumb? Right, We're starting to create
this narrative in our own head where ultimately it mutes
(03:15):
ourselves from saying anything at all. And I will tell
you I used to be one of those people. In fact,
I remember in my early journalism days, we would have
our editorial meetings where we would be talking about the
stories we would cover, and all of us reporters we
would have to come in and pitch our stories. And
I remember I would be sitting in these meetings and
I'd be looking around to all my other colleagues, who
(03:37):
I thought were so smart, so amazing, and I would
feel like, gosh, my ideas are just not as good
as theirs. But over time I realized it wasn't that
it wasn't as good. It was that I was creating
this dialogue in my own head, which caused me to
not say what I actually wanted to say. You know,
I looked around and I would always see who were
(03:59):
the people that always got their ideas heard, Who are
the people that always got on the big projects. They
were the ones that always spoke with conviction. It wasn't
that their idea was better. It was that whatever it
was that they were saying, they believed it, they wanted it.
And I always say that energy carries and that's what
I always talk to people about. It's that energy and
(04:22):
that belief. And most of the time, if you're excited,
people are going to be excited to so is.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
There something that you wish at that point in your
career that somebody had told you, because we really want
to make sure people that are just starting out in
their careers are armed with this that they know here
are the things that I should be working on when
it comes to speaking up for myself. And on top
of that too, this is not something that is just
established at the beginning of your career, but throughout your career.
(04:49):
So are there other things tied to that advice as well, that,
like you've learned over the years and you think are
important for people to continue to use to build that muscle.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yes, So I think there's multiple ways in how we
can look at this. So the first one is ourselves
and the other one is the environment that we're in.
And I say environment in the sense, where are you
in an environment where people are encouraging you to share
what's on your mind, Because we certainly know of things
like psychological safety, right, you might have a terrible boss
who might constantly make you feel uncomfortable. So that's one part,
(05:20):
which we'll talk about later. But the thing that I
want to talk about first is the personality part. And
you mentioned the word introvert, and I'm an introvert myself,
and people are like, how can you be an introvert
if you teach communication? And I think it's because I
understand the struggle for a lot of us introverts. I
can talk about this. So when I first started working,
I mentioned speaking was really hard for me. And part
(05:41):
of it is my personality because I tend to like
to think things through. I tend to want to be
more cautious before I say what's on my mind. But
I think a lot of it was also the way
I was raised to tell you the truth. So I
grew up in a pretty conservative environment where my parents
were all about, hey, Jessica, there's only a few things
you gotta do. You gotta work card, you got to
study hard and try not to, you know, piss people
(06:03):
off and rock the boat.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Right.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
None of that really encouraged me to feel confident in speaking,
because in fact, it was always the opposite. It was
about listening, and we know listening is very important, but
it was almost listening to the fact where you had
to be deferential, meaning you had to be agreeable, meaning
you almost had to minimize yourself to make other people
feel better. And I remember even sometimes I would find
(06:28):
myself sitting in meetings and I would be so hyper
focused on things like, oh, they're more experienced than me,
therefore they must know more than me. I think that's
a very common thing. We call it power distance, where
you walk into a corporate environment and you see the
senior VP and you're just like, oh, I'm just like,
you know, two or three years into my career, can
(06:49):
I really say what's on my mind? Or am I
just supposed to sit here? And I think that power
distance can also make us feel sometimes quite uncomfortable. So
that's one thing where we are creating almost this dis
ourselves between feeling like, hey, we're in this room for
a reason, and yes, I might be let's say, more junior,
but it doesn't mean my opinions aren't valued. One other
(07:09):
thing I will say is I work with a lot
of very smart people who tend to want to be perfect.
They want everything to be perfect before they say something.
They want to make sure it's always valuable. And I
think that's fantastic. But what I always say is what's
valuable is actually quite subjective. You might think what's valuable
(07:29):
has to be something new, but what's valuable can be
you asking a question. It can be you reiterating what
somebody else said, it can be you acknowledging somebody else
on the team. But the fact is you saying something
in that meeting is already half the battle in you
building visibility. And I want people to really understand that,
especially for people who tend to be more quiet, because
(07:51):
people hearing your voice is so incredibly important.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I'm glad you mentioned about the power distance thing too,
because I feel like there are so many companies that
I where you sit in these meetings and they will say, well,
what is gen Z into? And so if you are
gen Z, say what you're into, because like they do
want the input from these young people that they are
trying to target. And so it's like, you know, still
be respectful and professional, but like your opinion and what
(08:15):
you're seeing online and what you're into and your behaviors.
There's so many companies trying to tap into that. You
have that experience just by being you and being your
age exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
And this is what I talk about in terms of
when you're in these meetings. There's a difference between active
listening and passive listening. So passive listening is exactly what
you think it's like you're sitting in that meeting, but
you really have no intention of actually saying something in
that meeting. But active listening is where you're listening to cues.
People actually are always throwing cues of when, hey, this
(08:47):
is my opportune time to say something. So Leah, you
said when people are talking about gen z and you're like,
wait a second, I know something about this. This is
my time. This is where you jump in. It's not
about just kind of taking a back seat. It's like,
you know something, you got to say something.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So what can people do to really, like, you know,
kind of reclaim that. How would you encourage people to
push past those feelings that the power distance that you
were talking about and actually, like Garner, the wherewithal to
like actually speak up.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
So there's a few tips. When people tend to feel
very intimidated about speaking up, I tend to say, if
you can speak up earlier in a meeting, it's better
than speaking up later. And the reason why is because
oftentimes when we sit in this meeting, five minutes go by,
ten minutes go by, fifteen minutes go by, and all
of a sudden, the meeting's over and you never said
(09:34):
a thing. There's something really powerful about being early and
saying something. And again it doesn't have to be that
brilliant fireworks of an idea. It can be just you
saying something. But the idea is using your voice early
in a meeting gets you comfortable to use it later
on in a meeting. So I think that's a huge
barrier that once we can overcome that early on, it
(09:56):
makes it easier to then kind of be and feel
like you're a part of the comment. And one of
the things I always say is, of course being in
an environment where you are encouraged to speak up, where
you're encouraged to share your idea, is so important. But
if you feel like people are not giving you that chance,
then learning the communication skills to find and figure out
(10:17):
how to chime in. And there's actually some tips in
the book that I talk about, but like finding those
ways to chime in and add your thoughts, add your
two cents is really important. Let me just say, even
saying simple things like the person's name, so you're signaling
to the other person like, hey, I have an idea,
it's acknowledging, and acknowledging is not agreeing, it's just like, hey, Leah,
(10:38):
that was actually a really interesting idea and it made
me think of A B and C. Right, So it's
like I'm part of the conversation. It's not like I'm
like bulldozing it in any sort of way.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
And then kind of like the flip side of that, right. So,
like a lot of people worry that like advocating for yourself,
speaking up, saying your mind might make them seem like pushy, overbearing.
What is your way to like reframe that mindset?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I love that question, Matt, because a lot of times
people are like, oh, advocating for yourself can feel very
selfish sometimes, right, It's like can I even ask for
what I want? Should I even ask for what I want?
And a lot of times people are very considerate as
well as like, oh, maybe now is not the right time.
So the way I think about advocating for yourself is
very simple. I believe it is a must do, not
(11:26):
a nice to do, because at the end of the day,
you are going to be your best advocate. It's almost
unfair to put that on your manager to remember you,
your colleagues, to remember the things that you're doing, whatever
it is that you care about, you have to be
your own best cheerleader. So one of the things that
I wanted to share is in the book, I have
(11:48):
this like framework of okay, so what do you actually do?
Because I think a lot of us conceptually understand advocating
for yourself. Okay, I get what that means, but what
and how do I actually do it? So I put
it into this nice and cute little acronym call ACCT.
You got to act at work because that's part of
advocating for yourself. So it stands for a ask. You
(12:10):
got to ask for what you want. That's part of
advocating for yourself. But not just asking, it's c circling
back whatever it is you asked for, you gotta circle back,
you gotta follow up. Many times, when we put ourselves
out there, we ask for what we want. We're kind
of like, okay, good, I ask for what I want
case clothes, Like I'm done right now. The ball is
(12:31):
in their court. But the truth is people are busy.
They got like their own things that they got to do.
They got their own list of two duos, right You
asking is what I often say, is you just planting
that little seed in that person's head. And plus that
person might not even have the answer right away, so
circling back is very important. The third one is also
a C and that stands for celebrate Celebrate your wins.
(12:54):
This is my favorite one because I feel like advocating
for yourself is part of celebrating the amazing work that
you're doing, and I often feel like we don't do
that enough. Celebrating can be things like letting other people
know what you did, letting other people know what you're
excited about. And it doesn't have to be this long
winded answer of like, oh my gosh, look at this
amazing thing. It's just like maybe you forwarding a message
(13:15):
to your manager and being like, hey, I'm really excited
about this. You're not expecting them to say anything, but
you're just letting them know that you're happy about this.
The last one is a TEA and it stands for
turn down request, basically saying no.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
How do we do that? Yeah? Yeah, that's something I've
never learned how to say yes.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
There's a whole section in the book of like how
do you say no? And there's like a few ways
to go about it, but the idea is when you
say no, it's not about no it's about giving people options.
Because when you give people options of like, hey, I'm
not the best person for this, but maybe talk to
this person, maybe look at this right you're letting people
know that you're still trying to help them solve the
(13:54):
problem that they need help solving. It's just that you're
not the best person for this right now. And I
think tone of voice is a huge part of this
as well. But I do believe saying no is part
of advocating for yourself. ACCT I love ACCT love are yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Love an acronym and love everything that it stands for
and does and accomplishes as well. On top of that too,
I think sometimes when we're thinking about advocating for ourselves,
we want to make sure that we're getting the credit.
Like I love being part of a team, but I
also like for my colleague credit. Yeah I bought that
what I did, because also I think it helps build
(14:31):
my own confidence to be like, oh, actually, you know
what I did this? So what are the ways that
are the best for us to be documenting and communicating
our impact on a team but without seeming so self
promotional to everyone and territorial even too, Like how do
we consistently do this, not just around our performance review
(14:51):
time or around big projects, but just consistently throughout the year,
making sure we're documenting and letting people know like hey,
I snagged this much snails, I got this sponsor, I
got this person to come speak, or whatever the winds
may be.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yes, okay, this is what you.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Need to do.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Leah and Matt. You gotta go and create a yay
folder or yay no truly, like this is what I
talk about. Go into your inbox and create a folder
and call it your yay folder. And anytime you do
some amazing work somebody says great job, congratulations, you secured
(15:29):
that deal or whatever. Right, you take that email and
you drag it into this yay folder so that when
you know performance review comes, or when you are now
asking for what you want, you have evidence and documentation
of the amazing work that you're doing, which gives you
more credibility to ask for what you want. I think
a lot of us like we're busy, Like let's be real,
(15:51):
like we're juggling all these different things, and like you
get a great email and you're like, oh, I feel
good about it. But then you move on to the
next thing, because we got things to do, right, But
I do believe documenting you said, it's Leah like documenting
and putting it into one place is really important so
that you remember where it is. And Hey, if you're
having a crappy day and you're like, god, why do
people not appreciate the work that I'm doing, you just
(16:12):
open your yay folder and you have all the evidence
there too. That works as well.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I like it for that reason. First, it's just my
own little confidence boost. Okay, so before I even have
a yay folder at a job, and I've just landed
a job and now it's time for me to do
my salary negotiations, what's the best way to prepare ourselves
for that conversation?
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Prepare, Prepare, prepare. And it's not just preparing, it's about
putting yourself in the other person's shoot, meaning you know
you're going to ask for that race. So if you're
talking to your manager, think about why they might be hesitant,
think about why they might say no. I want you
to even like write this out on a piece of paper.
(16:55):
And this is great because you're doing this on your
own time and you're almost kind of playing devil's advocate
of like why they might be resistant to it, so
that with every single bullet point that you have, you
write down a reason to counter that, so that when
you're having this conversation with them, and in that conversation
they might not say like no, but you having the
talking points to address their concerns can help you in
(17:19):
a way like bolster your claim of asking for that race.
And I think, like a lot of times, what I
have realized about what makes people great communicators it is
really anticipating what other people are going to say and
knowing what your response is going to be. A lot
of times people walk into a meeting kind of blinded
or just hoping for the best. But I do feel
like preparing and understanding where the person's coming from, what
(17:43):
are their concerns, what can I do to make their
job easier can help you make your case so much better.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
I also think that it's important to know what you
don't know. Like the first time I was like, actually
in this, I didn't really realize I was in negotiation
until that I was like, oh, I think they were
like offering me the job, Okay, I didn't know that,
Like everything is a negotiation, And so knowing that, like
when you get that first job, salary negotiation is on
the table, like negotiating work perks are on the tables,
Like what is on the table for us when we're
(18:11):
going into an interview, you know, and maybe they are
going to offer us a job on the spot.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Matt, you said something so amazing. Everything is a negotiation,
not just even when you're like talking about a new job.
If you're talking about a new project, you wanting to
get on a new project, that is also a negotiation,
and we may not think of it in that formal sense.
And I want people to think about it this way.
Let's say like you're already in the job and there's
like a project that you are perhaps interested in getting on,
(18:39):
and let's say like it's already been staffed, like there's
already people, but you're like, God, I really want to
get on this project because I know it's going to
help my career, and plus it is something that I'm
interested in. So I want you to think about what's
the give and take. It's that give and take and
what you can communicate during that meeting with your manager,
because it's not about oh, they're saying, hey, Jessica, sorry,
we don't have room for a you, or we don't
(19:00):
have you know, the time. Whatever. It's thinking about, well,
what other ways can I get into this project? Maybe
think about it as like the back door, right, So
maybe that front door isn't there, but maybe you can
offer some other things you can do to help that
project indirectly, So you're in a way still showing that
you're interested, that you still want to contribute. But it
(19:22):
might not be in that initial proposal or in that
initial offer that you wanted. But I guarantee there are
other ways for you, for all of us to add
value to something that we want That might not be
explicitly laid out, but it takes you being creative so
that you can still attach yourself to the things that
you want to do. I think that's really important. So
I always say no is never case closed, it's just
(19:45):
how do you find another way? And I think that
mentality is so important, and also things like building resilience, right,
not taking things personally, and always feeling that there are
other ways around it.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
We'll be right back after a quick break.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
And we're back with more grown up stuff. How do
I don't?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So let's talk a little bit about like a performance
review time. How should people first of all take a
day breath prepare for these conversations so that they're able
to maximize their impact. You know, is this as simple
as just here's my YAE folder, here's all the amazing
wins I've had, or like, what are the other factors
and things to really be considering when we're asking for
(20:35):
more money for the job we're doing.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
So, okay, you're sitting at this table and now you
want to make that big ask And here's the thing.
Sometimes you might get that raise immediately. Sometimes it's just
not going to happen. But what I do think is
that you are preparing your manager for the conversation where
it's like, this is what I'm working towards, this is
what I care about, and this is the proof for
(20:57):
why I deserve it. So what I have found that
has helped a lot of people get to that next level,
whether it's title or whether it's more money, it's coming
up with ideas to show that you are contributing to
the team. I think a lot of times we can
go into work and we're just going to be doing
what we're told to do. You're hired for a role.
(21:17):
You do this role. But what I have found people
who truly accelerate are people who are constantly offering new ideas.
Bring that energy, that enthusiasm into this meeting of like,
I'm here, I'm a team player, I want to contribute.
These are the things that I care about and I
know can help. And I feel like that enthusiasm, whether
or not you're getting that raise immediately, can show that, hey,
(21:39):
this is what I can bring. Maybe you can't give
me that raise right now, but let's revisit this conversation
in two months, in three months. And I think setting
that stage is important because when you do bring it
up later on because you didn't get it, let's say initially,
when you have that and when you revisit that conversation again,
it's not so abroad because your manager already knows, like, hey, yes,
(22:02):
Jessica was going to follow up with me on this.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Another thing that people talk about a lot when talking
about like negotiations, raises and stuff like that is to
do a lot of like research, you know, market research
on like what these positions are typically paid, depending on
the type of job it is and the area that
you live in and the cost of living and all
that stuff like how much do you recommend that people
do that? Like, are those like receipts so to speak,
important to bring to these discussions? And if so, where
(22:27):
do you advise people go look for that information.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
There's tons of information out there on this. But the
one thing I always tell people when it comes to negotiating,
always ask for ten percent at least ten percent more
of what you find. Ten percent I feel as that
safe spot of like you know you're asking for more.
They might not give you that ten percent. You might
meet maybe like five, six, seven percent, but always overshoot
(22:50):
so that when you come down at least it's meeting
in the middle ground. But to your point, Matt, yes,
it's doing the research understanding. Are you being underpaid right
or are you kind of like where the market it is?
And here, let me say this, if you are kind
of like where the market is still ten percent, ask
for ten percent more because you want to always do
more so that when you eventually land it feels like
(23:12):
a little bit better from where you are at now.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
It's so true, Like I'm going to tell this story
and I tell this to everyone, and please learn from
my mistake. I did not do this research. The first
time I actually ever asked for a raise, and when
I presented my then boss the number, they laughed in
my face and said you could have got more, and
then proceeded to not give me more. And so I
(23:36):
really made a vow. I was like, the next time
this happens, you will not be laughing. You will be
strategizing a way to keep me on as an employee.
And so like, yeah, to your point, like, always ask
for more because no one ever wants to pay you
more and they're always gonna walk you down. So be
walked down from a ridiculous number, not the number that
you wanted.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
I totally agree. And it's not that they don't like
love you or they wouldn't want to like give it
to you, just that they're expecting you to ask for it. Right,
So wait, do they seriously laugh at your face? Matt?
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Like were they like, yeah, it was awful, it was
like the worst day ever.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Oh no, he's learned and we've all learned.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
We've learned. So yeah, yeah, learned from my mistake. That's
all I can say.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, And I think also there's like something really powerful
too about feeling like if you're not going to get
what you want, it's okay to also walk away. I
think about like my own work, and for me in
my role as the founder of my company, we're negotiating
contracts all the time, and trust me, I've gotten turned
down many, many times, and I've gotten turned down in
the sense where they totally would be like, no, we
(24:36):
only have this little of a quote unquote budget to
do it. And for me, even though I would feel like,
should I still do it for that price, it feels
kind of like no. If they're not willing to pay
X amount or whatever it is, it's okay. There's going
to be other opportunities. And similarly, on the flip side,
I've also pitched a contract with X amount and I
(24:57):
was like, oh my god, that is way more than
I I've ever asked for before too, and they've come
back and said, sure, you just never know. And I
think my belief is everything always works out in the end,
but you never know what you're working with unless you
really ask for what it is. And at the end
of the day, you want to ask for what feels
good to you too, Right, So if somebody's gonna lowball
you something and you accept it, are you gonna feel happy.
(25:20):
You have to think about it that way as well.
But in your mind, you have to know what's the
leverage here, right, Like, yes, it might not be the number,
but it could be the company itself that can get
you to that next level. So you just have to
be very smart and clear minded with what you're trying
to do and where you're wanting to go.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Is it chill to like ask your coworkers what they make?
Is that an okay thing to do, just to kind
of like know where you stand and by the way,
in no way am I saying if you get this
information you should use it to say, hey, my coworker
makes as much money I should too. I mean, well,
I'm sure that there's some situations where you know, two
(25:57):
people have the exact same job and they make fast
different salaries that that isn't something that should be rectified.
It might, you know, depending on the situation. All I'm
saying is I think it's a bad argument to make
to your boss saying hey, this person makes X, I
should make X. Your argument instead should be, hey, I
work across X number of dollars on X number of projects,
(26:18):
and that's why I deserve to make this much money.
But anyway, all that aside, I am curious to hear
from your perspective, like, is asking your coworkers what their
salaries are? Is that a chill thing to do.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
I don't think there's like a black and white like
yes or no. I do think a lot of it
is dependent on like how comfortable you are with them
and how comfortable they are with you. And I do
think a lot of it is like how you ask
to write if you have an awesome like relationship with
your colleague. And I think a lot of it's also
context too, like not having this conversation in passing, but
(26:51):
like maybe you're getting lunch, You're sitting down and you're like, hey,
so I'm planning to ask during performance review that I
want to raise. Do you feel like what you getting
paid is like fair? Are you thinking about potentially asking
for more? You know, during performance review? Because we're all
going through this right now, and it's kind of like
I guess testing the water a little bit. But if
you have somebody who you're like pretty comfortable with, you
(27:13):
can just say, like, I'm willing to share what it
is I make, would you be willing to share too?
So it's like a mutual thing. Yeah, And it's almost
kind of like, let's share this together. So we both
are basically in a way like helping each other. And
I do think that there's something really valuable to that.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
But be prepared to feel real weird.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
We actually find yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I've done this before. It can go great or not great. Yes.
So let's just say, like you're asking your managers, hey,
you know, I want to talk about a raise or
I want to talk about a performance review. To kind
of get to the discussion of talking about a raise,
when is it appropriate to walk away? Like I feel
like someone can only be told no so many times,
or like now it's not the right time or whatever.
When do you know that you should leave?
Speaker 3 (27:53):
I think there are a few markers, really, and I
think a lot of it comes down to also the
things that you value. There's a chap or my book
where I talk about building your career brand, and basically
it's like what do you want to be known for
and what you want to be known for or should
align with the things that you care about. Let's say
one of the things that you value is growth. You
want to always make sure you are getting on projects,
(28:16):
that's helping you grow, it's helping you learn. And if
you feel like you've reached a point at your current
job where the work isn't stimulating, then I think that's
a sign because what you value that's not happening, So
maybe it's time to look elsewhere. Another example is let's
say you value financial stability, and if you're feeling like
(28:38):
you're having these conversations of negotiating, you're asking for more
and your manager's not giving it to you, then maybe
that's time, right. So I think the question really comes
down to what it is that you value. What is
it that you care about. Is your job giving it
to you? And if not, can you do something about
it at your current place? If not, then it's time
(28:59):
to look elsewhere. And I think for many of us,
if we're fortunate enough to be in a place where
we have a job and we can still look elsewhere,
that's even better, right, so that when something better comes along,
then you can leave. So I think it comes down
to what do you value?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, you can only be told oh, we don't have
the budget so many times before you're like, well, I
got to find somewhere that does have the budget. Because
I am worth it, so by.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Or find someone who sees the value and me that
what I'm bringing to the table, you know, obviously, like
no one's seeing it here exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I also think that the YA folder I really like
because sometimes it is a really good reminder of oh, yeah,
I'm good at my job, and look at this amazing
impact I've had. I think obviously salary is a huge
part of a job, but also your manager is maybe
the most important part. What are things that people should
be looking for in a supportive manager and how do
(29:51):
you make sure that your manager is accurately advocating for
you to their manager.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I love that you bring this up, Leah, because I
feel like there is nothing more important than having a
manager who supports you. You can do the best darn
work ever, but if your manager doesn't see you, doesn't
appreciate the work that you do, you don't feel like
they respect you. It doesn't matter if you're going two
(30:16):
hundred miles an hour right They're never going to, in
your words, like, advocate for you. And I want to say,
if any of you feel like you're in a situation
like this right now where you can kind of feel
like things aren't really good between you and your manager.
There's nothing more than I can say than start looking elsewhere.
But actually it's not that you have to switch jobs,
(30:37):
switch companies. It could be you getting on another team
because I have found when you quote unquote suck it
up and just be like it's fine, like I'll just
get through it, you're not just like not accelerating, you're
actually slowing down. You're slowing down your career progression because
think about the time you are wasting because you are
(30:58):
doing all this work. It's not being appreciate, it's not
helping you. And that almost compounds in that way where
you're kind of like getting behind, more behind and more behind.
So to your point, yes, finding a good manager is
so important, you know, finding a place, a position, a
team where you feel supported, because that's really the most important.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about not
just advocating for yourself, but advocating for others because I think,
you know, obviously like saying I'm amazing is great, but
like when you're able to say, like, you know, Bob
is amazing, and Sarah is amazing, Bob.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Is amazing, Bob's so great at his job.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I think that also really selfishly shows your impact because
you are a team player and you're noticing everybody else's
skills that they're bringing to But you know, what can
you say about really being an ally and advocating for
colleagues to really help yourself as well on a team.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Yes, I love this question because I mentioned that I'm
more of an introverted person. But I was even more
introverted when I first started working, so much so that
I was like the quiet person, like the quiet girl
in the meeting, right. But I do remember that there
were certain colleagues who would shout out the work that
I would do, and it wouldn't be like awkward. It
(32:13):
would just be like, you know, somebody be like, hey, Jessica,
like awesome job on like whatever AB and C project,
and you know that person would just say it. And
I struggled with advocating for myself, but it made such
a huge difference in my own confidence when I saw
somebody else do it. So that now when I see
people who tend to be more quiet, when I see
people who tend to not like to talk about themselves,
(32:35):
I almost try to remind other people like shouting out
their work, but not just that giving them that runway
to speak is actually you advocating for them as well.
So think about it like this way, Like you have
somebody who tends to be quiet on the team, but
you love them, You think they're awesome, you think that
they're doing amazing work, and you almost are like, oh gosh,
(32:55):
I wish they would also say something too, because I
want people to appreciate them. Right, One of the things
that you can do is create that runway, and that
essentially just means like, Hey, Leah, we just had that
like conversation, that one on one meeting. Can you tell
folks what it is that we talked about, because I
think it was so awesome, you know, just creating that
runway for the other person. Suddenly, when you have somebody
(33:19):
advocating for you, it's kind of like you have that buddy,
and that's awesome. I think that's a great thing for
any of us to do.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
And this is a big dynamic in your book, Smart
Not Loud. Can you talk a little bit more about
those dynamics and how they played into like your personal
story and how you see them played out in the
workplace in general.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yeah, So I wrote this book for people who are
so smart, so hard working, but do find it very
hard to communicate they are maybe in an environment And
this was myself, like I was, you know, working in media,
you have a lot of like big personality people, people
who are very assertive, and that was my experience and
I struggled when I first started because I didn't know
(33:58):
how to find my voice, so to speak. So it's like,
you're smart, but you're not loud. But the subtitle is
how do you get noticed at work for the right reasons?
Because at the end of the day, that takes work,
that takes being proactive. So the first part of the
book is really getting people who feel this, how do
you change your mindset around it. It's not about oh,
(34:19):
if you're quiet, you got to be loud, or if
you're loud, you got to be quiet. You know, I'm
not telling people you got to change yourself, but I
do tell people you do have to change your mentality
of certain things. And I won't walk through it in detail,
but mindset is important. And then the other part of
it is like, how do you get noticed at work?
You got to be really clear on what do you
want to be known for? How do you build credibility
(34:41):
in the workplace, how do you advocate for yourself? Those
are all chapters in the book. And I believe all
this stuff doesn't mean anything unless you know how to
communicate well. And that's the last part of the book,
that's part three, and it's things like what do you say,
how do you say say it? Body language? Right, Like
(35:02):
all this are elements of communication. So this book is
like really to help people who might not be able
to communicate to their value. Well, that's what this book
is about.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
One of the biggest things I say to people is like,
if you're early on in your career and you find
that there's a challenge for you a read Jessica's book,
just do that, but be I always think that like
doing something completely out of your comfort zone, they can
kind of just like in a safe environment. I generally
recommend people to take improv classes, Like if you've got
an improv class in your city near you, like that
can be a great way to like a scare the
Bejesus out of yourself, but be like get outside of
(35:35):
the bounds of like what is normally comfortable for you,
because like that's what life is. We're all just improving, right,
And so if you can kind of like set some
dedicated time to work on that for yourself. I think
that that can like pay huge dividends for people like
who you're describing.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Improv is amazing because it gets you to do something
you're not comfortable doing. But I actually always tell people,
because I do a lot of like public speaking training
and whatnot, that that's really what it is, like knowing
how to command the tension of an audience right, And
a lot of it does have to come down to
the impromptu aspect of it, because how many of us,
like prepare for a presentation, We literally write out our
(36:10):
script right, and now you're presenting, and then you forget
your word and then you start to fumble and you
start to stumble, and it's just like, oh my god,
now it feels like a train wreck. But I do
think you know, to your point, Matt, I do think
that helps you find your ground quickly, especially when things
don't go as planned. So yes, one hundred percent agree,
it's a muscle totally well.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
On the opposite of improv too, I did want to
touch a little bit on the things that we can
control and can be like, you know, very particular about
are there any tips that you can share with us
about communicating. When it comes to ensuring that our body language,
our tonees mind tend to roll a lot. Our words
(36:49):
are all powerful and professional, both in person and also
in online communications because we're doing a lot on slack,
we're doing a lot on email. This is not just
sitting in a room having a meeting, but all around.
How can we make sure that we are presenting ourselves
physically and with words that is professional, but it is
also like firm and getting our point across but not
(37:10):
stepping out of line.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Let's say, great question, so let's start with tone of voice.
You know, it's really interesting because every time I talk
about teaching people to adjust their tone of voice, people
often say, well, is it my tone just kind of
like what I sound like, or is it just like
if I'm screaming at somebody or if I'm like whispering right,
But actually, in the communications world, we say that there
(37:31):
are five elements that go into your tone of voice,
and I'll walk you all through them. The first one
is your pitch, so the pitch of your voice, and
that basically means how high your voices or how low.
And women we just tend to have higher pitches. Men
tend to have lower pitches. But what I teach is
we actually have a range. And you might be familiar
(37:53):
with this term, but like speaking with your diaphragm, speaking
from like your stomach, to have that gravitas, that's pitch, right,
And when we talk about making sure people understand the
impact of your message, that variety is key. When you're excited,
you have a higher pitch. When you're having a serious tone,
it's lower. We have a range. The second one is
your rate, how fast you're speaking or how slow. Most
(38:18):
people when they're nervous, they're like speaking really fast, right,
But it's not about speaking slowly because if you're talking
so slow, it's like boring, honestly. So the key here
is variety. The other one is what we call your inflection.
So what words do you want emphasized? So like a
lot of us, we never think about it this way,
(38:40):
but when you are trying to convey a message to somebody,
you have a choice of what words you want emphasized.
A lot of times people just kind of like talk
and talk, But if you want people to like digest
a certain key point, that requires you to inflect certain words.
The other element is intensity, how loud or how soft.
(39:02):
How loud you're speaking is like yelling, how soft is
like whispering, And it's about variety. The last one is
the quality of your voice. So that basically means do
you tend to have more raspy, hoarse, squeaky? And that
of the five is what we say you cannot change.
So it's like when someone calls you, they're like, oh
(39:22):
it's Leah, it's Matt, like they know it's you. But
what we always say is when you communicate, you can
control the four and you should because that's what sounds interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
And what about power stance?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Oh love a power post?
Speaker 1 (39:35):
How do you feel about power stance in the office?
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yeah, go what you're like, arm on your head, your
hand on your head all the time?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Right?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
I will tell you that there is something to be
said about space and how you take up space in
a meeting. And it's not about like hey, let me
hog up, let me like open my hands, like my
arm's wide. But it's about when you're sitting in your seat,
not like scrunching yourself. There's something also to be said
about like and I'm talking about like in person meetings.
Right when you're in a meeting sitting in your seat
(40:05):
like you own the seat. There's also something to be
said about where you sit. A lot of times when
people feel intimidated, they just kind of find the back
seat where they can kind of like hide in that
corner and they can quietly just like take down notes.
I always say, you know, when you're in a meeting,
you want people to see you. So it's not that
you have to like sit in the very front or
sit next to like that client that's visiting, but at
(40:28):
least position yourself in a way where people can see you.
And this is a huge part of the book. It's
about building visibility. Part of it is it's not who
you know, it's who knows you that can really open
doors for you. And part of like you know, where
you sit, how you sit is how they perceive you,
and that's part of that perception. So body language does
(40:48):
play a huge part in it.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
To two final questions, one thing actually I wanted to
chat with you brought up and this actually really pertains
to my wife. So my wife is one of those
people who she works on an international team and a
lot of them are in Europe. And she's actually by
yourself in the United States, and so she does feel
the thing where she's left out and she doesn't necessarily
feel part of the team. And I guess my question is,
how can you advocate for yourself when you're in a
position of like you're completely remote, you're never in person,
(41:12):
You're always the person who's you know, a box on
a screen on someone else's office. Like advice for people
in that situation.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Gosh, it is hard. So in a situation like that
where like everybody is situated in one location, you're in
the other location, I do believe number one. And this
also makes people feel like kind of uncomfortable. But like
I do think it's important for them to see you
when you are in these remote team meetings. So it
really is something as simple as like turning your camera on.
(41:39):
And I know some organizations require some organizations don't, but
I do think that there is value in you turning
your camera on so that they can see your face.
As humans, that's how we connect with other people. Yes,
you know, we can have that box whatever, right, and
you know it's easier, let's be real to have our
cameras off in these meetings. But if you're in a
remote situation or if it is a what I call
(42:01):
like a higher stakes meeting, you know, having your camera
on can allow them to see you and really just
like build that connection with you. The other thing is
using like the chat functions so that they can still
see that you're engaging like of course if other people
are using the chat engage in it. It's just trying
to find those opportune times to get your name out
there for people to see you, for people to hear you.
(42:22):
One other thing that I say is important is this
is where one on one connection does make a huge difference. So,
like to your point, Matt, having and establishing those meetings,
these like catch up meetings with people you know, people
who you might not regularly meet but you would want
to get to know them better. Trying to carve out
time to schedule that one on one chat with them.
(42:42):
I do think it helps them keep you top of mind,
because that's the biggest challenge right that we're talking about.
When you're remote, it's easy for people to not remember
you at a sight out of mind, right, So for
you it does take that extra ten to fifteen percent
of effort for you to find those ways to include yourself.
But here's another thing. Tell people that you want to
(43:04):
be included in you know, certain meetings where you are
finding yourself not being included. And if it's like certain
projects that you want to get on, you can even
let them know, like hey, I'm happy to jump on
a call during this time because they might be thinking, oh,
we don't want to bother Jessica, right, like they're creating
this narrative. But if you're like, no, no, no, no, like
I actually want to be a part of it, and
(43:25):
you say that, then they know. You know, the one
thing is that you cannot assume people know what you're thinking.
Whatever it is that you want, you got to make
it known. That's how they're going to know.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
And to your point Jessica that like you don't know
what's on the table until you ask for it. I
was like, they keep telling you that you can come
to like some stuff in Europe, just tell them that
you want to come. And she ended up going and
she was like there for a full week and she
was like, I'm really really glad that I did that.
The human connection is just so important, especially when it
comes to advocating for you, Like people have to get
to know you as a human and that was a
huge thing for her. And so I think if anyone
(43:56):
is in the situation and meetings are going on, ask
if you can come. You know, companies have the budget
to fly you out most of the time.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Yeah, you just got to ask.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Speaking of asking, I'd like to ask you, is there
anything we didn't touch on here yet today that you
think is important for people to know that, are you know,
really ready to speak up for themselves at work?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
You know?
Speaker 3 (44:15):
The one thing that I would say, and I always
like to end with this, you know, we talked about
asking for what you want. We talked about negotiating, we
talked about building visibility, We talked about all the things
that are really important for our career but we often forget.
But the one thing that I want people to try
to do more is celebrating the work that you are doing.
And I love talking about this because for most of us,
(44:38):
we work hard. For most of us, like we generally
like the work that we do. We enjoy it, and
we like to just get things done right. But oftentimes
we forget to step back and go like, I'm actually
doing great work here. And that's where the celebration comes.
It doesn't have to be this grand thing and the celebrating,
Like I said, it can be you letting people know
about it. It can be you forwarding a message, It
(45:00):
can be you pinging your colleagues on Slack. Any of
that stuff I believe is celebrating. It's just letting people
know that you're excited about something, and I guarantee they'll
be excited. But aside from letting your colleagues know, even
outside of work, you know, when you're going back home,
you're talking to your wife, your husband, your boyfriend, your girlfriend. Right,
if there's like a deal that you just closed, pop
(45:21):
open that champagne. You know, Like, I really think that
there is like value in doing things like that, And
you might not think it's important, but I truly feel
like life is so short, like really like you have
to find these opportune times to celebrate because when else
are you going to do it?
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Right? Absolutely, If this isn't good.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, what is?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah? Jessica, Before we let you go, can you let
everyone know where they can find you and more of
your brilliant thoughts and work?
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Oh my gosh, well my books smart not loud? How
to get noticed I'd work for all the right reasons.
It's in bookstores everywhere. You can find on Amazon, Barnes,
and Noble. And if any of this really resonated with you,
all like this book is filled with all these golden
nuggets to really help you communicate to build visibility, so
check that out. I am most active on LinkedIn, so
(46:09):
if you listen to this episode you love it, add
me on LinkedIn let me know you heard it, or
on Instagram, so just type in my name Jessica Chen
and you can find me there.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Amazing, Jessica, thank you so much for spending this time
with us. I know people are going to get a
lot of value out of this conversation. These are the
conversations we just don't really have all the time, and
they are important to have, so thank you for being
with us.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Oh I'm putting this conversation in my yay folder immediately, so.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
Yes, yes, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
This is awesome.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Thank you, Jessica. Okay, Matt, tell me about a recent
addition to your yay folder.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
A recent addition to my ya folder is hiring and
working with one of the best post production coordinators out there,
ad the Aguilar, who is in the studio with us
right now. Amazing, and Abby doesn't want to be on
mid right, but we've been working together. She's been getting
trained out. She's recording the session right now, and I'm
so so happy to have Abby at our team. That's
going in my yaye folder. What about you?
Speaker 2 (47:12):
That was a good one. That was a really good one.
I got a nice Slack message from someone appreciating that
I helped them with a project. So I took a
little screenshot of that.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Nice people say nice things about your work.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah, it's very nice.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
So nice. Someone did that recently. They sent me a
long email and I was like, this is the kindest
thing anyone's ever seen. And it made me go like
I should do this more. I should just randomly be
super kind of people, because it like made my year.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Yeah, even when people do like a pretty okay job,
let them know they did a good job and like.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
It means yeah, it doesn't mean a lot.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
That's our tips.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Well. I hope you have many more editions in your
yay folder before we're back with our next episode in
two weeks.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
That's right, and until next time, good luck being a
grown up.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
This is a production of Ruby Studio from My Heart Media.
Our executive producers are Leo Palmery and.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
That's still This episode was edited and engineered by Sierra.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Spreen, and we'd like to thank our team at Ruby Studio,
including Sarah You, Ethan Fixel, Rachel Swan, krasnov Lydia, Kim Harper, Wayne,
Deborah Garrett, Salia Vra Plug, Abby Aguilar, and Andy Kelly
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