September 16, 2025 • 37 mins
Is drinking just not giving you the same buzz as before? When it comes to alcohol, are you thinking about cutting back, or cutting out entirely? We’ll you’re not alone, and hosts Lea Palmieri and Matt Stillo are here to help you navigate being sober curious. We’re breaking down what it means to explore mindful drinking, the steps you can take to incorporate this into your lifestyle, and the benefits to your mind, body, and wallet.
Our guest this week is Derek Brown, a hospitality consultant, a wellness coach, mindful drinking advocate, and the author of the National Academy of Sports Medicine Mindful Drinking Course, as well as two cocktail books, "Spirit Sugar Water Bitters: How the Cocktail Conquered the World" and "Mindful Mixology: A Comprehensive Guide to No and Low Alcohol Cocktails". Also check out mindfulfrinkingfest.com.
(Smoky) Ginger Old Fashioned Recipe
Yield: One Serving/12-14 oz. Double Rocks Glass
Ingredients:
- 2 ¼ oz. Kentucky 74 or Lapsang Souchong Tea
- ¼ oz. Ginger Syrup (purchase or use recipe below)
- 3 Dashes All the Bitters Aromatic Bitters
- Citrus Peel, lemon, or orange both work
Instructions:
Combine in a double rocks glass and add ice. Stir until chilled.
Ginger Syrup
Ingredients:
- 2 tbsp. Grated ginger root (with skin)*
- 1 cup water
- 1 cup white sugar
- Dash lemon juice
- (Optional: a few dashes of ginger juice**)
Instructions: Boil sugar and water until sugar granules dissolve. Remove from heat and add grated ginger. Allow to cool. Add lemon juice and strain.
*Pro-tip: Freeze the ginger root for easier grating.
**For an extra kick, add some fresh ginger juice before straining.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Ruby.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Leah Palmery and I met Stillo. Welcome to
grown up Stuff. Today's episode is not just about a
buzzy phrase, but actually something that Matt and I have
discussed a bunch.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
That's right, We're going to explore what it means to
be sober curious. Now, if you're also curious about the
phrase sober curious, we have Derek Brown joining to explain more.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I am curious, Matt, how did you know?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
So?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Derek is an author, a wellness coach, and co founder
of the Mindful Drinking Fest. So this is a guy
who knows a thing or two about the lifestyle and
also about bringing people together to celebrate their sober curiosity.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Because it's not just about having less wine, right, I mean,
it's also about feeling relaxed on a date without drinking,
or making it through a family dinner without pounding beers
to cope, or learning new ways to unwind at night exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
And here's Derek to help us learn so much more
about being sober curious. He has amazing tips. He knows
firsthand how to do this. We learned a lot and
guess what, we're going to implement a lot too.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
My name is Derek Brown, and I'm a hospitality consultant,
wellness coach, mindful drinking advocate, and the author of the
National Academy of Sports Medicine Mindful Drinking Course, as well
as two cocktail books, one called Spirit Sugar Water Biitters,
How the Cocktail Conquered the World, and the other one
Mindful Mixology, A Comprehensive Guide to know and low alcohol Cocktails.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Okay, Derek, tell us a little bit about your experience
with alcohol and how do you describe it today.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Well, I learned to drink growing up in restaurants. I
mean literally, I started working in restaurants when I was
sixteen years old, and they're really wonderful plays to learn
lots of things, but in terms of a healthy relationship
with alcohol, not so much. It turns out that one
in five people in the hospitality industry have a substance
(02:01):
use issue, and that person was me, and it was
something that became so normalized. I mean, when you start
spending time in restaurants when you're sixteen and everyone around
you is drinking all night, all week long. They're drinking
at high intensity, five to ten drinks a night minimum,
(02:22):
it just becomes so normal, and that was my life.
I started when I was sixteen, and I'm now turning
fifty one this year. You know that moment that the
doctor asked you how many drinks?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Oh? Yeah, yep. Are we going to be honest here
or are we going to tell you what you want
to hear?
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Yeah? Well I would say something like ten, and they'd go, well,
we'd like you to cut down a little bit, but
that's not bad for a week, and then realizing, hey,
I actually drank ten last night is what I meant,
and then it was ten the night before. I didn't
really understand a lot about how that was affecting my life.
In fact, I thought it was normal and healthy because
it was all around me. And so by the time
(03:01):
I got into my forties and there was a lot
of things that I started to notice were let's say,
not optimal in my life. I wasn't in a ditch somewhere.
There's this quintessential sort of like I am an alcoholic
story about everything's ruined, and I do know people go
through that, so I want to empathize with that, but
it wasn't exactly where I was. There were things in
my life that weren't optimal. There are things that I
(03:23):
wasn't happy about. My relationships restrained, my finances restrained, my
health wasn't as good as it could be. But it
wasn't like I identified in that classic sense as somebody with
an alcohol use disorder. And so when I finally woke
up to that, I realized, oh my gosh, this was
affecting so many aspects of my life. I had to
(03:44):
make a change.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Was there something that really triggered that? And what was
the change that you made from that point? Was it
just like I'm done or was it how do I
implement this in a daily way?
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Yeah, there was a very specific moment, and it involved
me drinking a lot, not surprisingly, and that it involved
me also taking other substances along with it, and waking
up in the morning and realizing that it was a
bad night. Everything had gone wrong, and I felt very low,
I felt at the edge, and I knew that I
had to make a change. And so once that happened,
(04:17):
I was able to stop the way that I was drinking,
but specifically because I addressed aspects of my mental health.
So I want to clarify something here. There's a term
that most people associate with people who drink too much,
and that's an alcoholic. Alcoholism is the colloquial term that
we use for a clinical disorder called substance use disorder
(04:41):
more specifically alcohol use disorder, and alcohol use disorder has mild, moderate,
and severe cases. And so in some cases people are
never able to drink again, But when it comes to
other people, maybe it's something that they address and it
has other features as well. For me, it was co
occurring with a mental health issue, which specifically was bipolar disorder,
(05:06):
and so once I addressed that aspect of it, I
was actually able to return to drinking moderately. I could
have one or two drinks a months. Now, I really
want to qualify. That's my story, and everyone has their
own recovery story, and this is not something I'm advocating
that people should go do. If you do feel like
(05:26):
you have a problem, it's great to talk to your
primary care physician, it's great to talk to a therapist.
It's great to go to one of these mutual aid
meetings like Alcoholics Anonymous or Smart Recovery, and that's where
you can really dive into it. But for me, I
realized that I could drink moderately after that, and so
(05:46):
I did that for a while. It was probably maybe
a year, and then I just stopped drinking. And the
reason why is because I got so excited about this
new revival of no and low alcoholic cocktails, specifically on
alcoholic spirits and wines and beers and the cocktails I
could make out of it. And so I actually kind
(06:07):
of realized, I don't want to drink the same way
I was drinking, and I don't need this. I'm exploring
a whole new area of mixology, so to say. There
were so many new products and so many new drinks
that I was just excited about it.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
But at the same time, this sober curious low alcohol
lifestyle has really gained a lot of popularity in the
last several years, and so I'm curious to hear a
little bit of what counts as sober curious and how
has this movement evolved.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
In twenty eighteen, Ruby Warrington wrote a book called Sober Curious,
which kind of gave us this term, right, And it's
exactly as it sounds. It's not that you are sober
in the sense that you don't drink alcohol ever. Again,
it's somebody who's curious about why they drink, and so
I like to put that term as well as sobriety,
as well as some of the other terms like soberish
(06:56):
that we hear under the rubric of mindful drinking. And
what mindful drinking really means is that we're drinking in
relationship to our goals and values, health or otherwise. It
means that we're taking a pause to think why do
we drink alcohol? And that's something that's happening as a trend,
(07:17):
but that is something that is just a good practice
in general. I don't know if you've seen this gallop
pole that came out in August where more and more
people are associating moderate drinking with harm. And in fact,
fifty four percent of Americans drink, which is a thirty
year low.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Which is pretty wild.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
But all of it falls under this rubric of mindful drinking,
where we take a pause and we go, hey, listen,
if no amount of alcohol is healthy for us, then
maybe it's a sometimes maybe thing rather than always definitely,
you know. And that's been the problem is that if
you go out on the weekend, what are you going
to do? Everybody's going to drink and in fact, when
(07:56):
you don't drink, that's when you're pointed out. You feel
like you have to tell your entire life story just
because you don't want to consume this particular drug.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I feel like the movement really has probably gone arm
in arm with science. I remember when I was younger
growing up, everyone drank. My parents' drank and their friends drank,
and it was a social thing whatever. And then yeah,
you started to get the sense that there was some
science coming out around, like, oh, well, wine is actually
good for you because antioxidants, And slowly and surely science
(08:25):
has come to a conclusion that like zero amount of
alcohol is good for you. And it seems along those trends,
really the industry and people getting curious about their own
sobriety as I have, has fallen along that trend. I
kind of felt the same way. I don't really feel
like I'm getting that much out of this anymore, maybe
as much as I used to when I was in
college or whatever, But at the end of the day,
(08:47):
I feel like it is nice to have a fun drink.
Are there any other scientific reports that have come out
along those lines that you can kind of trace the
movement in tandem? With yeah, well, let's.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Start with the nineteen eighties and nineties, when I think
is what you were talking about, that people had this
concept of this idea that drinking was healthy for you, right,
especially red wine. And they were looking at red wine
because they believed that it had these antioxid It's never
mind that these antioxidants are in chocolate and grapes and
many other things. It was on an episode of sixty
(09:19):
Minutes of Morally Safer. It was called the Inviting Glass,
and they were talking about something called the French paradox.
And this paradox is that French people consumed huge amounts
of fat in their diet, right, butter and all kinds
of stuff. We know what French food is like, it's
rich and it's delicious. But they had less instances of
(09:40):
heart disease. And so that led some scientists to study
wine is a potential mitigating factor and that and so
because of that, Morally Safer raised his glass and said
it could be in the Inviting glass. Americans went out
and bought cases in cases of red wine because that's
(10:01):
all that they needed to go say yes, okay, great.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I've got a green light, a green light.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
I'm ready to go. Unfortunately, it didn't look at a
lot of things, and since then we've seen science that
has certainly contradicted that. Although there are some mild protective
factors that drinking might have in terms of heart disease,
now here's the kicker And if you paid attention to
the surge in general. As he was leaving Vivicmurthy, doctor Murphy,
(10:30):
he put out a report about alcohol and cancer. So, yes,
there might be some mild protective factors that alcohol has
in terms of heart disease, but it actually is correlated
with seven different types of cancer, everything from esophagal to
colorectal cancer and especially breast cancer that's the one where
(10:53):
they have the most smoking bullet And so that's one
of the things that has really changed people's perspective because
cancer is obviously such a huge part of our society
in terms of health, it's something that we need to
be super concerned about.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I'm imagining that as you continue to share your story,
other people feel very comfortable to share their stories with
you as well. What are some of the most common
reasons that people give you for why they became sober
curious or why they're practicing mindful drinking.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
I think that it's exactly as Matt said earlier, because Matt,
I understand you're changing your relationship with alcohol, which I
think is a common theme. There's a lot of people
in that boat, and the reason that they're saying is
because they just stopped and thought about it. For some people,
it might be I have a job that doesn't allow
me to be hungover in the mornings, right, Or I
have a kid and I can't be hung over in
(11:45):
the mornings. Even one or two glass of alcohol can
have a certain effect on your focus and your sleep.
For other people, it's because they feel like they're getting
trapped into it through peer pressure or social conformity. So
I think that it's just people asking the question why
do I drink alcohol? Not to say that there's no
(12:05):
good reason to drink alcohol. The fact is that it's
enjoyable to go out and have a drink with friends.
We don't want to sacrifice our social wellness to not drink,
So I want to be really, really clear about that.
None of this is to say you should sit in
your bedroom and sip soda water. Okay, that's not the answer.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Some days, it is some days that amazing.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Yeah, fair enough day is wisely yeah, fair, but that
just happens. So go along with this new growing enthusiasm
for non alcoholic drinks. So people have choices. And I
think that's what is at the heart of what I
preach and what I think is really important. I don't
tell anybody drink or don't drink. I only want you
(12:51):
to have the options and the choices. And I don't
want people to feel pressured to drink if they don't
want to.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I love how you put it, which if or to
distill it, myself would be alcoholic just started having more
negative impacts on my life than positive. Yeah. And so
if you were talking to someone today, let's say one
of our audience members, maybe this is their first brush
with this idea of becoming sober curious, where would you
direct them to start if they wanted to explore this lifestyle.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Well, I think the first and easiest thing is to
start some research. I don't just mean go off into
chat GPT and start saying why shouldn't I drink? Right?
But let's start with asking yourself three questions and put
a journal in front of you, or take a walk
if you don't feel like writing it down. And ask yourself,
what is the ideal situation where I drink, what is
(13:42):
the best time, what are the worst times that I drank?
And how would I like to do it going forward.
So it's comparing and contrasting the experiences you've had, because certainly,
if you've had good experiences and you feel like you
can continue to drink, not a problem at all, continue
to drink. So being able to think it through ask
yourself a couple of questions is a good start from there.
(14:03):
If you've decided that you can still drink alcohol and
you want to incorporate let's say no and low alcoholic drinks,
I think there's a whole new world out there for you,
which is really exciting. And ultimately, I don't think it's
about what we give up. I think it's what we gain.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Well, speaking of giving up to do you recommend people
try to quit drinking cold turkey? Do you think that
is something that works? Is that something that helps them
then readjust and balance and say, okay, I can incorporate
one more back in or something like what are your
thoughts on just like completely stopping drinking.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
I think one of the easiest ways to do it
is to look at one of these temporary abstinence months.
Now we have Sober October coming up, there's going to
be dry January, and then dry July. Trust me, they're
going to come up with a month for every single
one of these. But let's just focus on dry January
and Sober October as it kind of book ends there.
This is a perfect opportunity because one of the struggles
(14:57):
is that you go out and maybe you're having a
non acqholic beer, sipping water or whatever, and somebody says,
why aren't you drinking, And all of a sudden, again
you have to tell your whole life story just to say, like,
I'm just trying to figure out whether I want a
drink or not. So during Dry January Sober October, you
have the perfect cover. You say, I'm doing dry January,
I'm doing this challenge. I'm doing thirty days to see
(15:17):
if I can go without alcohol.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And if that.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Works well for you, then maybe you want to keep
it going. Or if that doesn't work well in the
sense like you have a lot of trouble doing it,
then maybe that's a good signal to you that you
may need external help for this. So I think to me,
temporary absence months are a great place to start. But
I've actually come up with an acronym called rate, as
in the rate that you're drinking, and it has four
(15:42):
different strategies that you can use to reduce the way
you drink. R stands for replace, A stands for avoid,
T stands for temper, and E stands for illicit. So
replace is simple. In some cases, it could be as
simple as maybe at the end of a run you're
used to having a cold beer, replacing it with a
non alcoholic beer, or if you're used to having a
(16:07):
old Fashion at the end of the day, that's a
great drink. I don't want to take it from you.
There's some wonderful ready to drink cocktails, there's some wonderful
non alcoholic bourbon replacements. Believe it or not, they don't
taste like bourbon, but if you mix them into an
old fashion, they taste really good. Love that, So replacing
it is a simple way that you don't have to
(16:29):
feel like you're missing out from your ritual, from your
usual experience, from going out.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Do you cover the old fashion in your books, because
that is a drink that I do miss very much,
and I might need to pick up a recipe or
two from your book.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Oh absolutely yeah, my book Mindful Mixology, I definitely talk
about how to make a good old fashion without alcohol.
But Matt, I'm going to send you the recipe and
you all can post it for your audience too if
you'd like.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
That'd be incredible.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
So the A and rate is pretty obvious, but in
some cases it means just avoiding things that you are
used to drinking it. So let's say that you're dating.
This is a really scary one if you don't have alcohol,
I get it. But maybe avoiding bars, maybe inviting somebody
out to a cultural event or a movie theater that
(17:13):
doesn't have alcohol, or a climbing gym, something that's slightly
different so that you can avoid the usual scenario. But
as you can see, I'm not saying avoid it, like
never go there. I'm saying find an alternative that I
think feels equally attractive.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
Also, just to say it, having an activity on a
first date especially great way to have a first date.
Huge fan of the activity first date that isn't drinking.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
And also no rock climbing places should be serving alcohol
at all any So.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
That's a win win, Yeah, rock climbing and alcohol not
the best mix. Then the T and rate is for
temper and what I mean is just reduce the amount
you drink. So let's say that you are worried about
giving it up cold turkey, maybe drinking low alcohol alternatives,
you know, maybe where you usually go for that martini
which is hitting about thirty percent ABV or alcohol by volume,
(18:06):
having a glass of wine instead, or there's something called
zebra striping. Are you familiar with this term? Oh no,
So it means that you have a non alcoholic drink,
an alcoholic drink.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
A non alcoholic drink.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
So it's a way that you don't have to feel
like you'll never have alcohol again, and you can stay
in the moment and spend time with your friends, have three,
maybe four drinks and zebra stripe all along. So I
think that's a way to temper it. And then finally
the last one E is illicit, And that's illicit help
because sometimes we do need support, even if we don't
feel that we have alcohol used disorder. So there are
(18:39):
apps that you can get. Yes, there's an app for everything,
and there are apps that you can get that will
help you track the amount that you drink, which is
really useful. And there's like SMS texting that'll help you
report the amount that you drink. They send you nice messages,
and there's some empirical evidence that SMS texting will actually
help reduce the amount you drink. There's a lot more.
(19:02):
That's just a small bag of tricks that you can
use to reduce drinking.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
We'll be right back after a quick.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Break, and we're back with more grown up stuff.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
How do I don't.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
There are so many benefits from this, but what are
some of the ones that both you have experienced and
you either witnessed or you've heard from other people that
they feel physically and mentally better in ways that you
maybe never even imagined. Help motivate us to feel like,
you know what, this is the journey I'm going to
go on because it's going to make me feel better
(19:45):
in this way.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Well, the first thing that I want to say is
that not all the benefits hit everyone equally, So I
can't promise anybody all of these benefits. Okay, but here's
the one that I'm pretty sure everyone will experience. Better sleep. Yes,
alcohol is not very good for sleep. It turns out
we wake up in the middle of the night after
we've been drinking, as soon as the effects of the
(20:08):
alcohol wear off, and it causes a restless night. It
doesn't allow us to go into deeper stages of sleep,
and we wake up and we feel less focus, our
mood is worse, we're hungrier. So it leads to this
array of all these things that we don't want. So
just getting good sleep is one of the easiest benefits.
(20:31):
And I challenge anybody to especially if you're wearing a wearable.
You know, I gu is that what they call them
a wearable. It's like a ring or a watch that's
monitoring your sleep. Check it after you've had a night
of drinking. Compare that to the nights that you don't drink,
and you're going to see a radical change. But you know,
the other part of it is that it's obviously going
to help us reduce our risk of disease. In each
(20:53):
individual case, it might be different, but it certainly helps. Overall.
It helps us to live longer and live better. So
that old concept or idea that drinking alcohol is going
to make you live longer and better is discredited. It's different.
Now we recognize that living a healthy life means that
we're going to either reduce or eliminate alcohol from our diet.
(21:16):
So people talk about skin benefits. Alcohol does have a
certain effect on our skin. You'll have to talk to
a dermatologists for more specifics about that, but I've noticed.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I was going to say, Derek, the first thing when
I popped on I was like, this man's skin is
just fantastic. I know you're just one case, but it's
working for you, Derek. I'll say that, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
That fifty one, I have glowing skin that, believe me,
around thirty eight was not as glowing. So Yes, and
anxiety because alcohol is this immediate effect where it reduces
our anxiety in the moment, we think, ah good. I
don't know anybody who doesn't have a little bit of
anxiety in their life, right, It's just part of being
(21:54):
in the modern world. But all of a sudden, alcohol,
which seemingly relieves it in the moment, actually causes more
anxiety and a long run.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, anxiety is a real thing.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Oh yeah. There was an author that called it the
metaphysical hangover. When you wake up the next day and
you're just like, oh what did I do? And you
start texting your friends like, hey, was I okay last night?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
You know, not a good look. No, I'll just jump
in and corroborate all this stuff. I think I'm like
six weeks maybe into my sober curious journey. And that's
just the number one thing is that, like we were
tapering off, maybe we would have a drink every other
night or every night two three, whatever, and we've just
slowly tapered off to like we were having no drinks
(22:38):
and oh then we'd go out and we'd have a
drink with a friend and yeah, I would just wake up.
The more you're like, I just feel bad, Like I
don't know if it's that I have a headache or
that it's just my digest assistant isn't happy, or I
didn't sleep enough. I just feel better when I don't drink.
And as we've started rolling, although getting the flywheel going,
like just having six weeks of great sleep and not
(23:00):
really missing it because we have been substituting with those
near beers, we've both kind of realized we just wanted
a fun drink, it didn't necessarily need to have alcohol
in it, and yeah, just feeling a lot better. But
for people who do want to go down this sober
curious journey, but they're still a little anxious about not
having a sort of social lubricant. How might you direct
(23:21):
them to be able to relax in social environments without
alcohol's the sort of crutch.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yeah, Well, the first thing is making sure that they
have a non alcoholic beverage on the ready. That might
mean that going into environments they know that they're going
to be non alcoholic beverages. That helps, or just having
a soda water and bidders. Obviously bidders do have alcohol,
but not a lot of alcohol, so adding a couple
of dashes to a drink is probably not going to
(23:48):
put you in a state of intoxication. Having that drink
really helps. And let me explain why, because alcohol and
the way we drink is a piece of this is
going back to my days of anthropology and school embodied
material culture, and what it really means is it just
becomes so part of who we are in our bodies
that when we go to a party, your hand just feels.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Like a cup.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Immediately you're like, what do I do if I don't?
You know, it's like that anchor man, what do I
do with my hands? You get anxious just from not
having that drink, and so I really think it's important
to have an alternative in mind. So I think that's
a really good start. The other part of it is
I find it really useful. And this goes under the
E and rate elicit help having a buddy to go with, right,
(24:37):
So choosing somebody that you feel comfortable will call them
emotional support human somebody who you feel like will support
you and not going to get hammered themselves, and you
all can talk in between if everyone else is drinking
and you feel uncomfortable, like, hey, what's going on? Should
we stay? Should I have another drink? That sort of
thing is really useful to have a buddy or a
(24:59):
goal partner. But just also recognizing that the same positive
emotions that we get from drinking, because there are moments
where we're drinking, we're having a great time. I don't
want to undermine that. I don't want to tell anybody
that that's fake. That's not true. Of course they have
great experiences where they've had drinks, but those same positive
(25:19):
emotions are caused by laughing, storytelling, eating, drinking complex and
interesting drinks that aren't alcohol. All of those things can
help elicit those positive emotions too, So allow yourself to
experience that right, allow yourself to be there without alcohol
causing what we call an expectancy effect, because that's the
(25:41):
other part is alcohol. We think it's going to cause
an effect on us, and so it does. It's fascinating before.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I find my emotional support human, how do I explain
my sober curiosity to my friends, to my family, and
most importantly, to somebody I'm on a date with? Because
I think being a woman of a certain age, we
know better than to question why or why not somebody
might be drinking, whether they're trying to start a family
(26:09):
or health reasons. Is it weird to just lie and
be like, Oh, I'm on medication, so I can't drink
alcohol right now? Are there better ways to explain it
to the people that we're hanging out with why you're
making this decision without freaking them out?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
And is it weird that Leah always lies and says
that she can't take a medication to fee with the alcohol.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
Well, I never advocate lying, but it does turn out
that it's none of anyone's business whether you drink or
don't drink, And that means even your family and friends.
If you don't want to tell them, you don't have
to tell them. So if anyone's looking for permission not
to tell people about their most intimate details of their life,
tell them. Derek gave you permission. As a bartender and
as a wellness coach. You don't have to tell anybody anything,
(26:53):
but I will share this. It is nice to tell
people's stuff, and people do ask, and sometimes you don't
want to say speak to the hand, so I get it.
I would say that one of the easiest ways is
something I call propping, and that is having a drink
in your hand that looks like an alcohol drink and
never telling anybody. You don't have to lie about it.
(27:14):
In that case, you just make a pact with the bartender.
You go over to the bar, and bartenders love people
who don't drink too much. Yeah, trust me, it's the
people who drink too much that we never enjoyed having
around us. So I think if you make a pack
to the bartender and say, hey, listen, I'm not drinking,
but will you just make me a drink in one
of those stout glasses with a lime on the side.
(27:36):
Just give me a tonic water. Every time somebody orders
it round, I'll get that tonic water and then they'll
never know that I'm not drinking. So propping is a
really easy way to do it without lying. But other
than that, I think, like I said, temporary absence months
are really good because that is one that most people
at this point have heard of. But I think, even
(27:56):
though I don't advocate lying in a situation where somebody
is pushing you to say it, certainly I understand if
you have to say, hey, listen, I can't drink tonight
because XYZ. But I love the idea also of just
sharing with somebody I'm just not drinking right now, but
I'm glad to be here with you. That's also a
really simple way to put it. And hopefully if they're
a good friend of yours, they'll accept them.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Or you could try my new thing, which is to
convert people, like I'll start telling people what I'm doing. Also,
how much better I feel, how fun it can be
to not drink. The great market of wines and beers
and all these non alcoholic things you can partake in
if you want to go the other way, though, do
you want to know what a gin and tonic looks
exactly like a glass of Seltzer with aligne in it,
So you can just get that and then drink that
(28:38):
all night and pay zero dollars.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I'm glad you bring this up because we've learned a
lot from Derek already. But I do have a very
hard hitting question, which is why when I order a mocktail,
is it still fifteen dollars. Yeah, that's a bunch of
juices and a glass. Most of the time it is delicious.
But if they're not even using non alcohol in it,
and it's literally just like here's pineapple juice, orange juice
and a little umbrella, and I'm still buying fifteen dollars
(29:03):
like I have alcohol in it, do you have any
insight behind this?
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Well, before that, they were just using cheap rail rum
and pineappletity, So if they were out to cheat you,
they were already cheating you with or without alcohol. I
hate to say it, that's true, but yeah, I don't
suggest anybody pay fifteen dollars for a can pineapple juice
and grenadine. That's terrible. Yeah, and that's a ripoff, and
bar should be ashamed of themselves if they're doing that. However,
(29:29):
if they are making really complex, interesting non alcoholic cocktails
using distilled non alcoholic spirits, then that's the cost. Right.
Non alcoholic products can be even more expensive than alcohol
to make. I'll give you an example. So there's a
Bidder's company in Chico, California called All the Bitterers. His
family company, Ian and Carly Blessing, friends of mine. Great
(29:53):
product and it's an alternative to like Angus store. If
you've ever seen those biders or orange bitters, you know
they use putting old fashions of various cocktails. They make
a non alcoholic version. The base of it is glycerine,
which is a totally reasonable and healthy substitute. But because
alcohol is such a great solvent and glycerin not as much,
(30:17):
you have to use four five times the amount of product,
and they use real fruit, real things to put in it.
So that means that they are going to use more
material to make that product than somebody who's making it
with alcohol. And it's a smaller scale because obviously at
a large scale you can save money, but when you're
(30:37):
making a small craft products, it costs more. So I
would say that even though these non alcoholic cocktails sometimes
are expensive, if there's all the effort of all the
care is put into it, then it's worth it.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Okay, fair, You've brought me around to their side, Derek,
and you know what, look they look beautiful. So I
get my Instagram picture and really that's priceless. So I
think they've solved that today. Are there any hurdles that
you were surprised by in this or other people have
shared with you that they were like, Oh, I didn't
expect this to be a thing that came up while
(31:10):
figuring this out for themselves.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
Yeah, I'm going to tell you the biggest hurdle that
I had because my life had been alcohol had in
every part of it, right. It was my job, it
was my hobby, it was how I made friends, it
was everything. When I stopped drinking at that rate, I
was actually legitimately scared what am I going to do?
I felt almost like I had lost a friend in
(31:33):
a weird way, like a companion. Alcohol had becomes so
much a part of my life and my experience that
it felt sad not to have it there. So initially,
I have to say that I felt I had a
lot of anxiety about just going out and being around
other people that was short lived. I don't miss it
at all. I think there's so many great cocktails and
(31:55):
spirits and all this stuff. You still can't get a
great non alcoholic Scotch yet. I get it if you're
a connoisseur. But at the end of the day, my
life is far better for not drinking, and I never
think about it.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Yeah, I would just say that people you want to
have in your life, for the people who are supporting
you and being your champion no matter what you decide
to do. So to kind of round out here, Derek,
I'd love to hear. Is there anything that we didn't
ask you that you wanted to talk about or final thoughts?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
I think the really important thing is that we need
more bars, restaurants, hospitality spaces, concerts, venues to have options.
I think that's really important. So I really encourage those
listening who own those spaces to consider having a few
options that people could choose one, because you're leaving money
on the table if you don't. There was already twenty
(32:45):
five percent of the population that didn't drink alcohol anyway,
and that's when this whole movement started, and now it's
just growing. But besides that, it's good for people to
have options, so that's one thing. And those of you
who maybe don't own a place but go to bars
and restaurants and concert venues regularly ask for them. I
go to a minor league baseball team and Maryland that
(33:07):
I really like, and I've asked maybe a dozen times
for a non alcoholic beer, and finally they got one.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
WHOA, And it was great.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Yeah me, because it is a really wonderful experience being
in a game and having a cold beer. So I
really was grateful for that, And yes it did take
a little bit insistence, but it happened.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I wish there was like a costco setup where you
could try the non alcoholic beer so that people could
not have to pay for it yet and just have
a little sip and realize how tasty it actually is
and how much it is like a perfect swap for
the real thing, so that then they would then order more.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Absolutely, it's made the journey so much easier living in
a major city where I've been surprised at the amount
of bars that have non alcoholic beers or functions that
have gone to where there are non alcoholic options, and
so couldn't agree more with you that it's just so
important that more people get on the bus because to
your point, they're leaving money on the table and this
might be the nudge that some people need to really
take the plunge. And then lastly, Derek would love to
(34:01):
shout out to the people where they can find you
and more of your work.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Sure, the first thing I'd encourage people is to check
out Mindful Drinkingfest dot com. We have an annual event.
We had twelve hundred people this past year. We had
over two hundred and twenty products. If you want to
try the products, this is a great environment to do it.
Programming over three days and we had a bunch of
wellness classes and that sort of thing. It was a
really great fun experience, including just fun parties. I do
(34:27):
hospitality consulting at Drink Company dot com, so if anybody
wants some good nine o'clock beers cocktails, check that out
and feel free to reach out to me for help.
Other than that, the National Academy of Sports Medicine has
a great course on mindful drinking if you're interested in
taking that course. It self led and it's a wonderful start.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Derek, thank you so much. This has been a sobering conversation.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Thank you, Derek.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Okay, Matt, what is something that you're taking away from
our conversation with Derek That I.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Was too mean to my friend Andrew when he was
starting Sober Curious journey. We ride bikes together every week
to a bar, and he was always like not drinking,
and I gave him some shit about it. And I
feel bad as he really encouraged me to go on
the journey, and so I want to thank him, Thank you, Andrew.
But also I feel like I could have played more
of a supportive role in his journey. I mean, he's
(35:23):
like steadfast. There was nothing I was going to do
is going to knock him off of his game. But
I think everything that people are doing, whether it's drinking
less or trying to be more healthy, it's something that
they're doing for themselves. And so I would only say,
if someone in your life is going through the same
kind of journey, be supportive or go on the journey
with him and maybe start converting more people. This is
something that I think it's going to be a challenge
for me when I go home for the holidays this
(35:45):
year because of the wine flows at my parents' house
when we go home for the holidays. I think I
might have to do a little preemptive work to maybe
work some non alcoholic beverages into the holiday this year.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Ship a few bottles there ahead of time, ship it out,
get it there before you even get there. I appreciate
you admitting that and also paying it forward and trying
to bring other people on this wellness journey. Obviously, the
thing that I am taking away from this is the
understanding of why my mocktails cost so damn much, because
(36:15):
I was going to get angry about why the juices
were so expensive. But with the way that he put it,
and look, it is basically a drinkable art. Like sometimes
when they bring these things over to you, the places
that do them well and do them right, they bring
you over something that is like a really beautiful chemical concoction,
and so like, I do have a new appreciation for
(36:35):
these beautiful mocktails, and don't cheap me out, don't try
to just give me orange juice. But the ones that
are really well done, I have a new appreciation for me.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Too, because here's the thing about the price of these mocktails.
They're so high that they might drive someone to drink.
So it's good to know that there's a reason behind
the high price tag.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Well that is true, Matt, and you know what we
always say, until next time, good luck being a grown up.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
This is a production of Ruby Studio from iHeartMedia. Our
executive producers are Leopel Mary.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
And Matt Stillo. This episode was edited and engineered by
Sierra
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Spreen and we want to thank our teammates at Ruby Studio,
including Sarah You, Ethan Fixel, rachels Wan, krasnov Lydia Kim,
Abby Aguilar, Harper Wain, Celia Verpleu, Deborah Garrett, and Andy Kelly.
Ruby.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Leah Palmery and I met Stillo. Welcome to
grown up Stuff. Today's episode is not just about a
buzzy phrase, but actually something that Matt and I have
discussed a bunch.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
That's right, We're going to explore what it means to
be sober curious. Now, if you're also curious about the
phrase sober curious, we have Derek Brown joining to explain more.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I am curious, Matt, how did you know?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
So?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Derek is an author, a wellness coach, and co founder
of the Mindful Drinking Fest. So this is a guy
who knows a thing or two about the lifestyle and
also about bringing people together to celebrate their sober curiosity.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Because it's not just about having less wine, right, I mean,
it's also about feeling relaxed on a date without drinking,
or making it through a family dinner without pounding beers
to cope, or learning new ways to unwind at night exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
And here's Derek to help us learn so much more
about being sober curious. He has amazing tips. He knows
firsthand how to do this. We learned a lot and
guess what, we're going to implement a lot too.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
My name is Derek Brown, and I'm a hospitality consultant,
wellness coach, mindful drinking advocate, and the author of the
National Academy of Sports Medicine Mindful Drinking Course, as well
as two cocktail books, one called Spirit Sugar Water Biitters,
How the Cocktail Conquered the World, and the other one
Mindful Mixology, A Comprehensive Guide to know and low alcohol Cocktails.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Okay, Derek, tell us a little bit about your experience
with alcohol and how do you describe it today.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Well, I learned to drink growing up in restaurants. I
mean literally, I started working in restaurants when I was
sixteen years old, and they're really wonderful plays to learn
lots of things, but in terms of a healthy relationship
with alcohol, not so much. It turns out that one
in five people in the hospitality industry have a substance
(02:01):
use issue, and that person was me, and it was
something that became so normalized. I mean, when you start
spending time in restaurants when you're sixteen and everyone around
you is drinking all night, all week long. They're drinking
at high intensity, five to ten drinks a night minimum,
(02:22):
it just becomes so normal, and that was my life.
I started when I was sixteen, and I'm now turning
fifty one this year. You know that moment that the
doctor asked you how many drinks?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Oh? Yeah, yep. Are we going to be honest here
or are we going to tell you what you want
to hear?
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Yeah? Well I would say something like ten, and they'd go, well,
we'd like you to cut down a little bit, but
that's not bad for a week, and then realizing, hey,
I actually drank ten last night is what I meant,
and then it was ten the night before. I didn't
really understand a lot about how that was affecting my life.
In fact, I thought it was normal and healthy because
it was all around me. And so by the time
(03:01):
I got into my forties and there was a lot
of things that I started to notice were let's say,
not optimal in my life. I wasn't in a ditch somewhere.
There's this quintessential sort of like I am an alcoholic
story about everything's ruined, and I do know people go
through that, so I want to empathize with that, but
it wasn't exactly where I was. There were things in
my life that weren't optimal. There are things that I
(03:23):
wasn't happy about. My relationships restrained, my finances restrained, my
health wasn't as good as it could be. But it
wasn't like I identified in that classic sense as somebody with
an alcohol use disorder. And so when I finally woke
up to that, I realized, oh my gosh, this was
affecting so many aspects of my life. I had to
(03:44):
make a change.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Was there something that really triggered that? And what was
the change that you made from that point? Was it
just like I'm done or was it how do I
implement this in a daily way?
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Yeah, there was a very specific moment, and it involved
me drinking a lot, not surprisingly, and that it involved
me also taking other substances along with it, and waking
up in the morning and realizing that it was a
bad night. Everything had gone wrong, and I felt very low,
I felt at the edge, and I knew that I
had to make a change. And so once that happened,
(04:17):
I was able to stop the way that I was drinking,
but specifically because I addressed aspects of my mental health.
So I want to clarify something here. There's a term
that most people associate with people who drink too much,
and that's an alcoholic. Alcoholism is the colloquial term that
we use for a clinical disorder called substance use disorder
(04:41):
more specifically alcohol use disorder, and alcohol use disorder has mild, moderate,
and severe cases. And so in some cases people are
never able to drink again, But when it comes to
other people, maybe it's something that they address and it
has other features as well. For me, it was co
occurring with a mental health issue, which specifically was bipolar disorder,
(05:06):
and so once I addressed that aspect of it, I
was actually able to return to drinking moderately. I could
have one or two drinks a months. Now, I really
want to qualify. That's my story, and everyone has their
own recovery story, and this is not something I'm advocating
that people should go do. If you do feel like
(05:26):
you have a problem, it's great to talk to your
primary care physician, it's great to talk to a therapist.
It's great to go to one of these mutual aid
meetings like Alcoholics Anonymous or Smart Recovery, and that's where
you can really dive into it. But for me, I
realized that I could drink moderately after that, and so
(05:46):
I did that for a while. It was probably maybe
a year, and then I just stopped drinking. And the
reason why is because I got so excited about this
new revival of no and low alcoholic cocktails, specifically on
alcoholic spirits and wines and beers and the cocktails I
could make out of it. And so I actually kind
(06:07):
of realized, I don't want to drink the same way
I was drinking, and I don't need this. I'm exploring
a whole new area of mixology, so to say. There
were so many new products and so many new drinks
that I was just excited about it.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
But at the same time, this sober curious low alcohol
lifestyle has really gained a lot of popularity in the
last several years, and so I'm curious to hear a
little bit of what counts as sober curious and how
has this movement evolved.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
In twenty eighteen, Ruby Warrington wrote a book called Sober Curious,
which kind of gave us this term, right, And it's
exactly as it sounds. It's not that you are sober
in the sense that you don't drink alcohol ever. Again,
it's somebody who's curious about why they drink, and so
I like to put that term as well as sobriety,
as well as some of the other terms like soberish
(06:56):
that we hear under the rubric of mindful drinking. And
what mindful drinking really means is that we're drinking in
relationship to our goals and values, health or otherwise. It
means that we're taking a pause to think why do
we drink alcohol? And that's something that's happening as a trend,
(07:17):
but that is something that is just a good practice
in general. I don't know if you've seen this gallop
pole that came out in August where more and more
people are associating moderate drinking with harm. And in fact,
fifty four percent of Americans drink, which is a thirty
year low.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Which is pretty wild.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
But all of it falls under this rubric of mindful drinking,
where we take a pause and we go, hey, listen,
if no amount of alcohol is healthy for us, then
maybe it's a sometimes maybe thing rather than always definitely,
you know. And that's been the problem is that if
you go out on the weekend, what are you going
to do? Everybody's going to drink and in fact, when
(07:56):
you don't drink, that's when you're pointed out. You feel
like you have to tell your entire life story just
because you don't want to consume this particular drug.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I feel like the movement really has probably gone arm
in arm with science. I remember when I was younger
growing up, everyone drank. My parents' drank and their friends drank,
and it was a social thing whatever. And then yeah,
you started to get the sense that there was some
science coming out around, like, oh, well, wine is actually
good for you because antioxidants, And slowly and surely science
(08:25):
has come to a conclusion that like zero amount of
alcohol is good for you. And it seems along those trends,
really the industry and people getting curious about their own
sobriety as I have, has fallen along that trend. I
kind of felt the same way. I don't really feel
like I'm getting that much out of this anymore, maybe
as much as I used to when I was in
college or whatever, But at the end of the day,
(08:47):
I feel like it is nice to have a fun drink.
Are there any other scientific reports that have come out
along those lines that you can kind of trace the
movement in tandem? With yeah, well, let's.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Start with the nineteen eighties and nineties, when I think
is what you were talking about, that people had this
concept of this idea that drinking was healthy for you, right,
especially red wine. And they were looking at red wine
because they believed that it had these antioxid It's never
mind that these antioxidants are in chocolate and grapes and
many other things. It was on an episode of sixty
(09:19):
Minutes of Morally Safer. It was called the Inviting Glass,
and they were talking about something called the French paradox.
And this paradox is that French people consumed huge amounts
of fat in their diet, right, butter and all kinds
of stuff. We know what French food is like, it's
rich and it's delicious. But they had less instances of
(09:40):
heart disease. And so that led some scientists to study
wine is a potential mitigating factor and that and so
because of that, Morally Safer raised his glass and said
it could be in the Inviting glass. Americans went out
and bought cases in cases of red wine because that's
(10:01):
all that they needed to go say yes, okay, great.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I've got a green light, a green light.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
I'm ready to go. Unfortunately, it didn't look at a
lot of things, and since then we've seen science that
has certainly contradicted that. Although there are some mild protective
factors that drinking might have in terms of heart disease,
now here's the kicker And if you paid attention to
the surge in general. As he was leaving Vivicmurthy, doctor Murphy,
(10:30):
he put out a report about alcohol and cancer. So, yes,
there might be some mild protective factors that alcohol has
in terms of heart disease, but it actually is correlated
with seven different types of cancer, everything from esophagal to
colorectal cancer and especially breast cancer that's the one where
(10:53):
they have the most smoking bullet And so that's one
of the things that has really changed people's perspective because
cancer is obviously such a huge part of our society
in terms of health, it's something that we need to
be super concerned about.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I'm imagining that as you continue to share your story,
other people feel very comfortable to share their stories with
you as well. What are some of the most common
reasons that people give you for why they became sober
curious or why they're practicing mindful drinking.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
I think that it's exactly as Matt said earlier, because Matt,
I understand you're changing your relationship with alcohol, which I
think is a common theme. There's a lot of people
in that boat, and the reason that they're saying is
because they just stopped and thought about it. For some people,
it might be I have a job that doesn't allow
me to be hungover in the mornings, right, Or I
have a kid and I can't be hung over in
(11:45):
the mornings. Even one or two glass of alcohol can
have a certain effect on your focus and your sleep.
For other people, it's because they feel like they're getting
trapped into it through peer pressure or social conformity. So
I think that it's just people asking the question why
do I drink alcohol? Not to say that there's no
(12:05):
good reason to drink alcohol. The fact is that it's
enjoyable to go out and have a drink with friends.
We don't want to sacrifice our social wellness to not drink,
So I want to be really, really clear about that.
None of this is to say you should sit in
your bedroom and sip soda water. Okay, that's not the answer.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Some days, it is some days that amazing.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Yeah, fair enough day is wisely yeah, fair, but that
just happens. So go along with this new growing enthusiasm
for non alcoholic drinks. So people have choices. And I
think that's what is at the heart of what I
preach and what I think is really important. I don't
tell anybody drink or don't drink. I only want you
(12:51):
to have the options and the choices. And I don't
want people to feel pressured to drink if they don't
want to.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I love how you put it, which if or to
distill it, myself would be alcoholic just started having more
negative impacts on my life than positive. Yeah. And so
if you were talking to someone today, let's say one
of our audience members, maybe this is their first brush
with this idea of becoming sober curious, where would you
direct them to start if they wanted to explore this lifestyle.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Well, I think the first and easiest thing is to
start some research. I don't just mean go off into
chat GPT and start saying why shouldn't I drink? Right?
But let's start with asking yourself three questions and put
a journal in front of you, or take a walk
if you don't feel like writing it down. And ask yourself,
what is the ideal situation where I drink, what is
(13:42):
the best time, what are the worst times that I drank?
And how would I like to do it going forward.
So it's comparing and contrasting the experiences you've had, because certainly,
if you've had good experiences and you feel like you
can continue to drink, not a problem at all, continue
to drink. So being able to think it through ask
yourself a couple of questions is a good start from there.
(14:03):
If you've decided that you can still drink alcohol and
you want to incorporate let's say no and low alcoholic drinks,
I think there's a whole new world out there for you,
which is really exciting. And ultimately, I don't think it's
about what we give up. I think it's what we gain.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Well, speaking of giving up to do you recommend people
try to quit drinking cold turkey? Do you think that
is something that works? Is that something that helps them
then readjust and balance and say, okay, I can incorporate
one more back in or something like what are your
thoughts on just like completely stopping drinking.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
I think one of the easiest ways to do it
is to look at one of these temporary abstinence months.
Now we have Sober October coming up, there's going to
be dry January, and then dry July. Trust me, they're
going to come up with a month for every single
one of these. But let's just focus on dry January
and Sober October as it kind of book ends there.
This is a perfect opportunity because one of the struggles
(14:57):
is that you go out and maybe you're having a
non acqholic beer, sipping water or whatever, and somebody says,
why aren't you drinking, And all of a sudden, again
you have to tell your whole life story just to say, like,
I'm just trying to figure out whether I want a
drink or not. So during Dry January Sober October, you
have the perfect cover. You say, I'm doing dry January,
I'm doing this challenge. I'm doing thirty days to see
(15:17):
if I can go without alcohol.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And if that.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Works well for you, then maybe you want to keep
it going. Or if that doesn't work well in the
sense like you have a lot of trouble doing it,
then maybe that's a good signal to you that you
may need external help for this. So I think to me,
temporary absence months are a great place to start. But
I've actually come up with an acronym called rate, as
in the rate that you're drinking, and it has four
(15:42):
different strategies that you can use to reduce the way
you drink. R stands for replace, A stands for avoid,
T stands for temper, and E stands for illicit. So
replace is simple. In some cases, it could be as
simple as maybe at the end of a run you're
used to having a cold beer, replacing it with a
non alcoholic beer, or if you're used to having a
(16:07):
old Fashion at the end of the day, that's a
great drink. I don't want to take it from you.
There's some wonderful ready to drink cocktails, there's some wonderful
non alcoholic bourbon replacements. Believe it or not, they don't
taste like bourbon, but if you mix them into an
old fashion, they taste really good. Love that, So replacing
it is a simple way that you don't have to
(16:29):
feel like you're missing out from your ritual, from your
usual experience, from going out.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Do you cover the old fashion in your books, because
that is a drink that I do miss very much,
and I might need to pick up a recipe or
two from your book.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Oh absolutely yeah, my book Mindful Mixology, I definitely talk
about how to make a good old fashion without alcohol.
But Matt, I'm going to send you the recipe and
you all can post it for your audience too if
you'd like.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
That'd be incredible.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
So the A and rate is pretty obvious, but in
some cases it means just avoiding things that you are
used to drinking it. So let's say that you're dating.
This is a really scary one if you don't have alcohol,
I get it. But maybe avoiding bars, maybe inviting somebody
out to a cultural event or a movie theater that
(17:13):
doesn't have alcohol, or a climbing gym, something that's slightly
different so that you can avoid the usual scenario. But
as you can see, I'm not saying avoid it, like
never go there. I'm saying find an alternative that I
think feels equally attractive.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
Also, just to say it, having an activity on a
first date especially great way to have a first date.
Huge fan of the activity first date that isn't drinking.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
And also no rock climbing places should be serving alcohol
at all any So.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
That's a win win, Yeah, rock climbing and alcohol not
the best mix. Then the T and rate is for
temper and what I mean is just reduce the amount
you drink. So let's say that you are worried about
giving it up cold turkey, maybe drinking low alcohol alternatives,
you know, maybe where you usually go for that martini
which is hitting about thirty percent ABV or alcohol by volume,
(18:06):
having a glass of wine instead, or there's something called
zebra striping. Are you familiar with this term? Oh no,
So it means that you have a non alcoholic drink,
an alcoholic drink.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
A non alcoholic drink.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
So it's a way that you don't have to feel
like you'll never have alcohol again, and you can stay
in the moment and spend time with your friends, have three,
maybe four drinks and zebra stripe all along. So I
think that's a way to temper it. And then finally
the last one E is illicit, And that's illicit help
because sometimes we do need support, even if we don't
feel that we have alcohol used disorder. So there are
(18:39):
apps that you can get. Yes, there's an app for everything,
and there are apps that you can get that will
help you track the amount that you drink, which is
really useful. And there's like SMS texting that'll help you
report the amount that you drink. They send you nice messages,
and there's some empirical evidence that SMS texting will actually
help reduce the amount you drink. There's a lot more.
(19:02):
That's just a small bag of tricks that you can
use to reduce drinking.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
We'll be right back after a quick.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Break, and we're back with more grown up stuff.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
How do I don't.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
There are so many benefits from this, but what are
some of the ones that both you have experienced and
you either witnessed or you've heard from other people that
they feel physically and mentally better in ways that you
maybe never even imagined. Help motivate us to feel like,
you know what, this is the journey I'm going to
go on because it's going to make me feel better
(19:45):
in this way.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Well, the first thing that I want to say is
that not all the benefits hit everyone equally, So I
can't promise anybody all of these benefits. Okay, but here's
the one that I'm pretty sure everyone will experience. Better sleep. Yes,
alcohol is not very good for sleep. It turns out
we wake up in the middle of the night after
we've been drinking, as soon as the effects of the
(20:08):
alcohol wear off, and it causes a restless night. It
doesn't allow us to go into deeper stages of sleep,
and we wake up and we feel less focus, our
mood is worse, we're hungrier. So it leads to this
array of all these things that we don't want. So
just getting good sleep is one of the easiest benefits.
(20:31):
And I challenge anybody to especially if you're wearing a wearable.
You know, I gu is that what they call them
a wearable. It's like a ring or a watch that's
monitoring your sleep. Check it after you've had a night
of drinking. Compare that to the nights that you don't drink,
and you're going to see a radical change. But you know,
the other part of it is that it's obviously going
to help us reduce our risk of disease. In each
(20:53):
individual case, it might be different, but it certainly helps. Overall.
It helps us to live longer and live better. So
that old concept or idea that drinking alcohol is going
to make you live longer and better is discredited. It's different.
Now we recognize that living a healthy life means that
we're going to either reduce or eliminate alcohol from our diet.
(21:16):
So people talk about skin benefits. Alcohol does have a
certain effect on our skin. You'll have to talk to
a dermatologists for more specifics about that, but I've noticed.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I was going to say, Derek, the first thing when
I popped on I was like, this man's skin is
just fantastic. I know you're just one case, but it's
working for you, Derek. I'll say that, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
That fifty one, I have glowing skin that, believe me,
around thirty eight was not as glowing. So Yes, and
anxiety because alcohol is this immediate effect where it reduces
our anxiety in the moment, we think, ah good. I
don't know anybody who doesn't have a little bit of
anxiety in their life, right, It's just part of being
(21:54):
in the modern world. But all of a sudden, alcohol,
which seemingly relieves it in the moment, actually causes more
anxiety and a long run.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, anxiety is a real thing.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Oh yeah. There was an author that called it the
metaphysical hangover. When you wake up the next day and
you're just like, oh what did I do? And you
start texting your friends like, hey, was I okay last night?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
You know, not a good look. No, I'll just jump
in and corroborate all this stuff. I think I'm like
six weeks maybe into my sober curious journey. And that's
just the number one thing is that, like we were
tapering off, maybe we would have a drink every other
night or every night two three, whatever, and we've just
slowly tapered off to like we were having no drinks
(22:38):
and oh then we'd go out and we'd have a
drink with a friend and yeah, I would just wake up.
The more you're like, I just feel bad, Like I
don't know if it's that I have a headache or
that it's just my digest assistant isn't happy, or I
didn't sleep enough. I just feel better when I don't drink.
And as we've started rolling, although getting the flywheel going,
like just having six weeks of great sleep and not
(23:00):
really missing it because we have been substituting with those
near beers, we've both kind of realized we just wanted
a fun drink, it didn't necessarily need to have alcohol
in it, and yeah, just feeling a lot better. But
for people who do want to go down this sober
curious journey, but they're still a little anxious about not
having a sort of social lubricant. How might you direct
(23:21):
them to be able to relax in social environments without
alcohol's the sort of crutch.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yeah, Well, the first thing is making sure that they
have a non alcoholic beverage on the ready. That might
mean that going into environments they know that they're going
to be non alcoholic beverages. That helps, or just having
a soda water and bidders. Obviously bidders do have alcohol,
but not a lot of alcohol, so adding a couple
of dashes to a drink is probably not going to
(23:48):
put you in a state of intoxication. Having that drink
really helps. And let me explain why, because alcohol and
the way we drink is a piece of this is
going back to my days of anthropology and school embodied
material culture, and what it really means is it just
becomes so part of who we are in our bodies
that when we go to a party, your hand just feels.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Like a cup.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Immediately you're like, what do I do if I don't?
You know, it's like that anchor man, what do I
do with my hands? You get anxious just from not
having that drink, and so I really think it's important
to have an alternative in mind. So I think that's
a really good start. The other part of it is
I find it really useful. And this goes under the
E and rate elicit help having a buddy to go with, right,
(24:37):
So choosing somebody that you feel comfortable will call them
emotional support human somebody who you feel like will support
you and not going to get hammered themselves, and you
all can talk in between if everyone else is drinking
and you feel uncomfortable, like, hey, what's going on? Should
we stay? Should I have another drink? That sort of
thing is really useful to have a buddy or a
(24:59):
goal partner. But just also recognizing that the same positive
emotions that we get from drinking, because there are moments
where we're drinking, we're having a great time. I don't
want to undermine that. I don't want to tell anybody
that that's fake. That's not true. Of course they have
great experiences where they've had drinks, but those same positive
(25:19):
emotions are caused by laughing, storytelling, eating, drinking complex and
interesting drinks that aren't alcohol. All of those things can
help elicit those positive emotions too, So allow yourself to
experience that right, allow yourself to be there without alcohol
causing what we call an expectancy effect, because that's the
(25:41):
other part is alcohol. We think it's going to cause
an effect on us, and so it does. It's fascinating before.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I find my emotional support human, how do I explain
my sober curiosity to my friends, to my family, and
most importantly, to somebody I'm on a date with? Because
I think being a woman of a certain age, we
know better than to question why or why not somebody
might be drinking, whether they're trying to start a family
(26:09):
or health reasons. Is it weird to just lie and
be like, Oh, I'm on medication, so I can't drink
alcohol right now? Are there better ways to explain it
to the people that we're hanging out with why you're
making this decision without freaking them out?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
And is it weird that Leah always lies and says
that she can't take a medication to fee with the alcohol.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
Well, I never advocate lying, but it does turn out
that it's none of anyone's business whether you drink or
don't drink, And that means even your family and friends.
If you don't want to tell them, you don't have
to tell them. So if anyone's looking for permission not
to tell people about their most intimate details of their life,
tell them. Derek gave you permission. As a bartender and
as a wellness coach. You don't have to tell anybody anything,
(26:53):
but I will share this. It is nice to tell
people's stuff, and people do ask, and sometimes you don't
want to say speak to the hand, so I get it.
I would say that one of the easiest ways is
something I call propping, and that is having a drink
in your hand that looks like an alcohol drink and
never telling anybody. You don't have to lie about it.
(27:14):
In that case, you just make a pact with the bartender.
You go over to the bar, and bartenders love people
who don't drink too much. Yeah, trust me, it's the
people who drink too much that we never enjoyed having
around us. So I think if you make a pack
to the bartender and say, hey, listen, I'm not drinking,
but will you just make me a drink in one
of those stout glasses with a lime on the side.
(27:36):
Just give me a tonic water. Every time somebody orders
it round, I'll get that tonic water and then they'll
never know that I'm not drinking. So propping is a
really easy way to do it without lying. But other
than that, I think, like I said, temporary absence months
are really good because that is one that most people
at this point have heard of. But I think, even
(27:56):
though I don't advocate lying in a situation where somebody
is pushing you to say it, certainly I understand if
you have to say, hey, listen, I can't drink tonight
because XYZ. But I love the idea also of just
sharing with somebody I'm just not drinking right now, but
I'm glad to be here with you. That's also a
really simple way to put it. And hopefully if they're
a good friend of yours, they'll accept them.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Or you could try my new thing, which is to
convert people, like I'll start telling people what I'm doing. Also,
how much better I feel, how fun it can be
to not drink. The great market of wines and beers
and all these non alcoholic things you can partake in
if you want to go the other way, though, do
you want to know what a gin and tonic looks
exactly like a glass of Seltzer with aligne in it,
So you can just get that and then drink that
(28:38):
all night and pay zero dollars.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I'm glad you bring this up because we've learned a
lot from Derek already. But I do have a very
hard hitting question, which is why when I order a mocktail,
is it still fifteen dollars. Yeah, that's a bunch of
juices and a glass. Most of the time it is delicious.
But if they're not even using non alcohol in it,
and it's literally just like here's pineapple juice, orange juice
and a little umbrella, and I'm still buying fifteen dollars
(29:03):
like I have alcohol in it, do you have any
insight behind this?
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Well, before that, they were just using cheap rail rum
and pineappletity, So if they were out to cheat you,
they were already cheating you with or without alcohol. I
hate to say it, that's true, but yeah, I don't
suggest anybody pay fifteen dollars for a can pineapple juice
and grenadine. That's terrible. Yeah, and that's a ripoff, and
bar should be ashamed of themselves if they're doing that. However,
(29:29):
if they are making really complex, interesting non alcoholic cocktails
using distilled non alcoholic spirits, then that's the cost. Right.
Non alcoholic products can be even more expensive than alcohol
to make. I'll give you an example. So there's a
Bidder's company in Chico, California called All the Bitterers. His
family company, Ian and Carly Blessing, friends of mine. Great
(29:53):
product and it's an alternative to like Angus store. If
you've ever seen those biders or orange bitters, you know
they use putting old fashions of various cocktails. They make
a non alcoholic version. The base of it is glycerine,
which is a totally reasonable and healthy substitute. But because
alcohol is such a great solvent and glycerin not as much,
(30:17):
you have to use four five times the amount of product,
and they use real fruit, real things to put in it.
So that means that they are going to use more
material to make that product than somebody who's making it
with alcohol. And it's a smaller scale because obviously at
a large scale you can save money, but when you're
(30:37):
making a small craft products, it costs more. So I
would say that even though these non alcoholic cocktails sometimes
are expensive, if there's all the effort of all the
care is put into it, then it's worth it.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Okay, fair, You've brought me around to their side, Derek,
and you know what, look they look beautiful. So I
get my Instagram picture and really that's priceless. So I
think they've solved that today. Are there any hurdles that
you were surprised by in this or other people have
shared with you that they were like, Oh, I didn't
expect this to be a thing that came up while
(31:10):
figuring this out for themselves.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
Yeah, I'm going to tell you the biggest hurdle that
I had because my life had been alcohol had in
every part of it, right. It was my job, it
was my hobby, it was how I made friends, it
was everything. When I stopped drinking at that rate, I
was actually legitimately scared what am I going to do?
I felt almost like I had lost a friend in
(31:33):
a weird way, like a companion. Alcohol had becomes so
much a part of my life and my experience that
it felt sad not to have it there. So initially,
I have to say that I felt I had a
lot of anxiety about just going out and being around
other people that was short lived. I don't miss it
at all. I think there's so many great cocktails and
(31:55):
spirits and all this stuff. You still can't get a
great non alcoholic Scotch yet. I get it if you're
a connoisseur. But at the end of the day, my
life is far better for not drinking, and I never
think about it.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Yeah, I would just say that people you want to
have in your life, for the people who are supporting
you and being your champion no matter what you decide
to do. So to kind of round out here, Derek,
I'd love to hear. Is there anything that we didn't
ask you that you wanted to talk about or final thoughts?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
I think the really important thing is that we need
more bars, restaurants, hospitality spaces, concerts, venues to have options.
I think that's really important. So I really encourage those
listening who own those spaces to consider having a few
options that people could choose one, because you're leaving money
on the table if you don't. There was already twenty
(32:45):
five percent of the population that didn't drink alcohol anyway,
and that's when this whole movement started, and now it's
just growing. But besides that, it's good for people to
have options, so that's one thing. And those of you
who maybe don't own a place but go to bars
and restaurants and concert venues regularly ask for them. I
go to a minor league baseball team and Maryland that
(33:07):
I really like, and I've asked maybe a dozen times
for a non alcoholic beer, and finally they got one.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
WHOA, And it was great.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Yeah me, because it is a really wonderful experience being
in a game and having a cold beer. So I
really was grateful for that, And yes it did take
a little bit insistence, but it happened.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I wish there was like a costco setup where you
could try the non alcoholic beer so that people could
not have to pay for it yet and just have
a little sip and realize how tasty it actually is
and how much it is like a perfect swap for
the real thing, so that then they would then order more.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Absolutely, it's made the journey so much easier living in
a major city where I've been surprised at the amount
of bars that have non alcoholic beers or functions that
have gone to where there are non alcoholic options, and
so couldn't agree more with you that it's just so
important that more people get on the bus because to
your point, they're leaving money on the table and this
might be the nudge that some people need to really
take the plunge. And then lastly, Derek would love to
(34:01):
shout out to the people where they can find you
and more of your work.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Sure, the first thing I'd encourage people is to check
out Mindful Drinkingfest dot com. We have an annual event.
We had twelve hundred people this past year. We had
over two hundred and twenty products. If you want to
try the products, this is a great environment to do it.
Programming over three days and we had a bunch of
wellness classes and that sort of thing. It was a
really great fun experience, including just fun parties. I do
(34:27):
hospitality consulting at Drink Company dot com, so if anybody
wants some good nine o'clock beers cocktails, check that out
and feel free to reach out to me for help.
Other than that, the National Academy of Sports Medicine has
a great course on mindful drinking if you're interested in
taking that course. It self led and it's a wonderful start.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Derek, thank you so much. This has been a sobering conversation.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Thank you, Derek.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Okay, Matt, what is something that you're taking away from
our conversation with Derek That I.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Was too mean to my friend Andrew when he was
starting Sober Curious journey. We ride bikes together every week
to a bar, and he was always like not drinking,
and I gave him some shit about it. And I
feel bad as he really encouraged me to go on
the journey, and so I want to thank him, Thank you, Andrew.
But also I feel like I could have played more
of a supportive role in his journey. I mean, he's
(35:23):
like steadfast. There was nothing I was going to do
is going to knock him off of his game. But
I think everything that people are doing, whether it's drinking
less or trying to be more healthy, it's something that
they're doing for themselves. And so I would only say,
if someone in your life is going through the same
kind of journey, be supportive or go on the journey
with him and maybe start converting more people. This is
something that I think it's going to be a challenge
for me when I go home for the holidays this
(35:45):
year because of the wine flows at my parents' house
when we go home for the holidays. I think I
might have to do a little preemptive work to maybe
work some non alcoholic beverages into the holiday this year.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Ship a few bottles there ahead of time, ship it out,
get it there before you even get there. I appreciate
you admitting that and also paying it forward and trying
to bring other people on this wellness journey. Obviously, the
thing that I am taking away from this is the
understanding of why my mocktails cost so damn much, because
(36:15):
I was going to get angry about why the juices
were so expensive. But with the way that he put it,
and look, it is basically a drinkable art. Like sometimes
when they bring these things over to you, the places
that do them well and do them right, they bring
you over something that is like a really beautiful chemical concoction,
and so like, I do have a new appreciation for
(36:35):
these beautiful mocktails, and don't cheap me out, don't try
to just give me orange juice. But the ones that
are really well done, I have a new appreciation for me.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Too, because here's the thing about the price of these mocktails.
They're so high that they might drive someone to drink.
So it's good to know that there's a reason behind
the high price tag.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Well that is true, Matt, and you know what we
always say, until next time, good luck being a grown up.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
This is a production of Ruby Studio from iHeartMedia. Our
executive producers are Leopel Mary.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
And Matt Stillo. This episode was edited and engineered by
Sierra
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Spreen and we want to thank our teammates at Ruby Studio,
including Sarah You, Ethan Fixel, rachels Wan, krasnov Lydia Kim,
Abby Aguilar, Harper Wain, Celia Verpleu, Deborah Garrett, and Andy Kelly.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com