April 19, 2023 • 43 mins
The conditions of the St. John County Jail were so inhumane that inmates were referred to as “the product.” So few people survived the harsh imprisonment that any sentence there was considered a death sentence.
Special Guest: Stephen Mitchell
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
and Mild from Aaron Manky listener Discretion is Advised. Founded
in fifteen sixty five, Saint Augustine is the oldest continuously
occupied city in America. It's home to the Fountain of
Youth at least sort of, and some of the most
(00:22):
beautiful Spanish Revival architecture in the country. But there's a
dark side to all of that history. Corruption ran rampant
in Saint Augustine when some people would be unjustly imprisoned
on flimsy, sometimes unwarranted charges. The conditions of the Saint
John County Jail were so inhumane that inmates were referred
(00:43):
to as the product. So few people survived the harsh
imprisonment that any sentence there was considered a life sentence. Today,
the Saint Augustine Old City Jail is one of the
city's biggest tourist attractions, with tours led by costumed re enactors.
They walk the old jail's corridors, recreating what life was
like there for inmates. What some people don't realize is
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that many of the inmates never left. I'm Amy Bruney,
and this is haunted road. A beachfront city on Florida's
(01:28):
Atlantic coast, Saint Augustine brings in millions of tourists annually
to take advantage of the white sand beaches and the
unique historic attractions like the Saint Augustine Lighthouse. Regular listeners
might remember the shadowy figures in disembodied Children's Laughter of
that remarkably haunted place. The city is also home to
what some claim is the real Fountain of youths at
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the Fountain of Youth Archaeological Park. It was rumored to
have been discovered by Ponce Delion and his explorations of
Florida's coast in fifteen thirteen, one hundred and fifty years ago.
While the historic architecture Saint Augustine might have looked similar,
the city wasn't a widely known tourist destination like it
is today. But one man, Henry Flagler, was about to
find the ancient city as it's nicknamed and changed Saint
(02:11):
Augustine forever. Flagler co founded Standard Oil with John D.
Rockefeller in eighteen sixty three and quickly found himself enormously wealthy,
according to the Flagler Museum, when he died in nineteen thirteen,
his estate was worth one hundred million dollars or about
twelve point five billion in today's money. In eighteen seventy eight,
his wife, Mary Flagler, was in failing house suffering from tuberculosis.
(02:35):
Doctors ordered them to leave New York City winter and
head to warmer climes to help Mary's recovery. The couple
headed to Jacksonville, Florida, but Mary did not survive the trip.
Soon afterward, Flagler remarried and discovered Saint Augustine, about forty
miles away, according to Oldtown Trolley tours. He found the
area charming and brimming with possibilities, but sorely lacking in accommodations.
(02:59):
Flagler began to invest in real estate, including constructing a
luxury hotel that would be a beacon to wealthy travelers.
Now part of Flagler College, the Poncedalion Hotel was constructed
in eighteen eighty eight. It was designed to attract rich
and famous guests looking for a warm weather escape. The
five hundred forty room hotel was designed in the Spanish
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Revival by the same architectural firm that shortly afterwards would
design the New York Public Library with the help of
Flagler's friend Thomas Edison. The hotel was one of the
first in America to be built hardwired for electricity. Lewis
Comfort Tiffany and his company Tiffany Company handled the interior design.
Murals inside were painted by George Maynard, who later painted
(03:39):
murals inside the Library of Congress. Everything was perfect except
one thing. Directly across the street from the Poncedallyon Hotel
was the Saint John County Jail, and it simply would
not do to have that be the most prominent thing
Flagler's well healed clientel would see from his marquee establishment.
But baires, as you might guess, have an easy way
(04:01):
of solving problems. Flagler got the prison moved with one
flex of his checkbook. He donated ten thousand dollars to
the Saint John County Commissioners to build a new jail
far out of sight of his hotel. According to Visit
Saint Augustine, Flagler wanted to ensure a safe and pleasant
environment for his patrons by creating a secure fortress to
house criminals. It was important to Flagler that the exterior
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appearance of this fortress wouldn't disrupt the majestic atmosphere of
the ancient city. To accomplish this, it was designed with
a Romanesque Revival style that gave it the distinct appearance
of a Victorian house. Without interior comfort and charm, it
was almost unrecognizable as a jail apart from the barred windows.
The architects PJ. Poly Jail Company would go on to
(04:45):
design Alcatraz shortly after. The Saint John County Jail was
designed to hold seventy two male and twelve female inmates.
The two story prison had a northern wing which housed
the general population, a maximum security area, a women's area
in na in the kitchen. The southern wing had an
office for the sheriff and living quarters for his family.
(05:09):
In fact, the building was so appealing that people would
go there assuming it was a hotel and asking for
a room. It was a nice looking jail, but what
was going on inside was horrific. Dana Saint Clair, director
of the Saint Augustine four hundred and fiftieth Commission, told
the Saint Augustine Record. According to Anne Coleby, author of
Wicked Saint Augustine, when Pedro Menendez de Aviles founded Saint
(05:31):
Augustine in fifteen sixty five. His New World survival kit
included gambling, liquor, and ladies for hire. For the next
four hundred years, these three industries were vital in keeping
the city financially afloat. The illicit activities, sometimes illegal and
sometimes just thought of as socially unacceptable, were carried out
right under the noses of local law enforcement and politicians.
(05:51):
After all, those people were regular participants. They patronized the
illegal gambling parlors and drank at the speakeasies, even though
you know probabit. As Colby told the Saint Augustine Record,
there were a number of arrests, but very few convictions
for either prostitution or running a brothel. Because all of
the law enforcement, all the judges, most of the city
council members, they were all customers. That corruption went a
(06:14):
lot further all the way through how the prison was run.
Some of the prison's population, to be sure, deserved to
be there. Sim Jackson was hanged in nineteen oh eight
for murdering his wife with a straight razor. Charlie Powell
was hanged in nineteen ten for killing a man for
spreading rumors about his wife, but some definitely did not
deserve to be incarcerated. Saint Clair added, people were rounded
(06:36):
up on trumped up charges like loitering and intoxication, and
in those days, when you were rounded up, it was
pretty much a death sentence. Gina Kish, history teller for
the Old Jail, told Saint Augustine Register that some of
the women imprisoned had committed no crime at all. They
would drag women of low reputation down here, so if
you didn't have a good family name or a husband,
you could be thrown in jail, she said. Inside its walls,
(06:58):
conditions were unliving. Overcrowded cells allowed disease to run rampant,
and high tensions led to vicious violence between prisoners as
ghosts and gravestones. Described by today's standards, these cells would
be considered unlivable for humans. No blankets or pillows were provided,
and the mattresses stuffed with Spanish moss were often infested
with red bugs. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the site continues, the Old
(07:21):
jail had no bathing facilities or sanitation for human waste,
which meant the inmates were not able to bathe, and
there was a stench that could not be eliminated if
the men's conditions were bad, the women's conditions were worse.
There were six women to a cell that was only
designed to hold four, and none of the women's cells
had electricity or running water. The only bathroom facilities the
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women had access to were buckets. The men's cells got
plumbing in nineteen fourteen, but the women never did. As
Ghosts and Gravestones described, Maximum Security housed the most dangerous
prisoners held at the jail and included a death row
cell for those condemned to die. The Maximum Security cells,
located in the back of the building, were equipped with stockades,
(08:02):
a torture cage, and a clear view of the execution area.
The solitary confinement cell had no bed at all. Every
inmate was required to work. Men released out to local
farms to work in the fields in a money making
scheme to enrich the county and worked in terrible conditions.
They were transported to the farms and cages, working in
chain gangs, their ankles shackled together the entire time. As
(08:25):
Kish described, they weren't working with the proper equipment and
sometimes didn't even have shoes. The men would often return
from the fields bleeding from wounds, inflicted by their manacles.
It was more extreme than harsh. Saint Clair said. Those
who were too infirmed to endure hard labor, even by
(08:47):
the harshest standard, were permitted to work in the prison garden.
Women were required to cook and clean for the male
prisoners and for the sheriff's family. They were like prison maids.
Kish said it was a dark, dirty place. On average,
prisoners only stayed alive about two years in these conditions.
The only time a doctor came was on hanging days.
Kish said the death rate was so notorious and an
(09:09):
unrecorded number of people have died here. Inmates would succumb
to illness or malnutrition, be killed by violent means, or
be executed for their crimes. You might guess that not
all of them deserve that punishment, and you would be right.
One man in particular was executed, although he was essentially
proven innocent. Jim Kirby and Robert Lee were accused of murder,
and both were convicted and hanged in nineteen oh one.
(09:32):
Even though Kirby was adamant that Lee had nothing to
do with the crime, he was not exonerated. According to
an article from the Saint Augustine Record on the day
of the hanging, Lee said, they are hanging an innocent man,
as God is my judge, and knowing that I must
face him innocent or guilty in a few minutes, I
am innocent. In the same article, Kirby said, I have
tried to save Lee but failed. But you can state
(09:55):
that he knew nothing of the affair until it was over.
A total of eight men were hanged for their crimes
in the prison. Such huge crowds would gather for hangings
that people would climb telephone poles to get a better view.
The jail closed in nineteen fifty three after sixty two
years of mistreating prisoners, throughout which it was given multiple
citations for its conditions. Today, it's one of the most
(10:16):
popular tourist attractions in the city and one of the
most haunted places in America. Perimal investigators travel from thousands
of miles away to take ghost tours of the jail
and tried to communicate with spirits of the inmates. As
Kish told the Saint Augustine Register staff and visitors have
experienced paranormal activity in the jail. Various people have seen
various things throughout the day. She said. People report being
(10:37):
touched and grabbed to the point where a person will
leave bruised. They also report smelling sewage smells or sickly
sweet aromas, neither of which have been present for more
than seventy years. A common paranormal sighting is the crawler,
a shadow figure that crawls on the floor in the
cell block. Visitors commonly report being touched by something cold
or feeling as though something is tugging at their hair.
(10:59):
Another frequent occurrence is hearing men in chains. According to
Ghosts and Gravestones, one of the many complaints to those
living close to the Old Jail is the frequent sounds
of footsteps walking inside. Loud, plunky noises indicate that these
footsteps belong to the disembodied souls of the criminals that
once lived and died there. Guests touring the facility have
also reported this phenomenon. People also report hearing phantom dogs barking.
(11:25):
Maybe most haunting are the sounds of lingering suffering, as
Ghosts and Gravestones says, there are many reports of whaling
moaning sounds coming from the maximum security and solitary confinement areas,
and some visitors have even reported hearing the voice of
a little girl coming from the sheriff's quarters. Others have
heard someone whistling at them, and several guests have reported
hearing a dastardly laugh in one of the women's cells.
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Another spot that's reported to be particularly haunted, according to
Old City Ghosts, is a solitary cell. Folks are challenged
to stay in the cell and sit alone in the
far left corner. Many have claimed to have seen in
a shadowy figure lurk toward them, a sort of shade
that scurries and tries to tear at them. Everyone who
has taken the test has attested to the experience and
(12:08):
the fuse that somehow left disappointed, later claimed to have
uncovered scratch marks on their belly the very next day.
While on that note, up next, we'll be talking with
Stephen Mitchell. Stephen was the director and manager of the
Old Saint Augustine Jail for many, many years, and you
may recognize him from our episode of Kindred Spirits filmed there,
as well as one of the first ever episodes of
(12:29):
Ghost Hunters many moons ago. He has got some stories
to tell and a lot of paranormal history to share,
so that is coming up after the break. I am
(12:49):
now joined by Stephen Mitchell. And you might be familiar
with Stephen if you watched our episode at the Old
City Jail of Kindred Spirits, and he was also the
client for the episode of ghost Hunters that happened there
so so long ago. So welcome Stephen, I am Now
(13:10):
what was now? I know you've moved on to a
different position within the same company and so you're not
at the jail any longer, but you spent many many
years there. What was your capacity at the jail.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
The time that a lot of this was happening. I was.
I was running our daytime museum operations and overseeing our
ghosts and gravestones operations at night, so I got all
sorts of exposure to all of the varied energies that
take place in their day and night.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, you know, it's something people always ask and like,
you know, do hauntings only happen at night? Why do
you investigate at night? And the jail's kind of a
great example of that, just because you know, we we
tend to investigate at night only because locations are a
lot quieter, and especially like in a high traffic area
(14:03):
like where the jail is there's less cars outside, there's
clearly less people. Sometimes light anomalies are more apparent in
the dark. But the jail is unique because people do
have experiences day or night. And I kind of sometimes
wonder if people might be having experiences when they're touring
during the day and not even realize it.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
You know, I'll be honest, I think that. I think
that a lot of people realize it, But a lot
of people come to that that moment, that threshold of
questioning themselves, you know, as my imagination getting away from me,
did I really see that? Or am I crazy? And
there The moment that really has always surprised me is
when it's easier for somebody to convince themselves that they
(14:50):
had a momentary lapse of sanity, that that it's easier
to believe that, oh no, it's okay, I'm insane, I'm insane,
that couldn't have actually had and and they they're able
to shrug it off that way and walk away. It's
easier for them to confront that than to think for
a moment that something out of the ordinary, something paranormal,
(15:11):
just interacted with them in the same space.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Isn't that so funny? And then I be people on
the opposite end of the spectrum who are probably having
some something medical going on, but insists that it's paranormal.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
So the curtain move, The curtain moved, conditioning kicked. No,
it's a ghost.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yes, Now, when did you know the jail was haunted?
When did you just go, Okay, there is something going
on here?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Oh boy, what I have to say. I don't know
that there's a singular difining moment. I know that I
was already accepting of the idea at the time that
I was working at the jail, and my first experience
probably was more subtle. My first interaction with the energy
(16:03):
was was probably something that that I shrugged off or
or dismissed as a momentary. Uh. I don't know what
that was, but but I'm not I'm not bothered by it.
The first the first time that that I think something
happened that I I couldn't explain through any other means.
(16:24):
Was was the brief glimpse of a full on apparition
a person that was there that shouldn't have been there,
that that was suddenly not there in in a millisecond,
and and just just that brief little moment in time.
(16:44):
I I knew that I wasn't alone in.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
The building, right, And so yeah, when you see something
like that and you're supposedly alone, uh, and you actually
see it kind of manifest and then disappear like that
obviously catches you off guard. But I know you've had
some pretty major experiences, and especially that one experience you
had on the staircase, which I think was kind of
(17:06):
a one off happening. But can you describe what happened
in that moment?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, that was that was definitely a pretty intense moment,
coming up the staircase, heading up to the second floor
and feeling feeling something stopped me, feeling a hand right
pressed up against my chest, feeling it pushed me back,
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and realizing that I've got to move my feet because
something's going to move me and if I if I
don't back down, I and I got pushed right down
those stairs. That was kind of one of those moments
that I h I really had questioned why am I
(17:53):
still here?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
I get why am I still working here? But it
also doesn't sound like that was a regular cur You know,
what were you feeling in that moment? Was there like
a different vibe than usual, like, why do you think
that happened? I know it was a very long time ago,
but why do you think that happened on that day?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I can't explain why that happened anymore that, but what
I can say is the number of thoughts that went
through my rational mind is as I tried to figure
out what, how, why, and realizing this, yes, this is
the first time and maybe the only time anything like
that would ever happen in that building to a person.
(18:33):
Not the first time it's happened. You know, I'd been
in there with with a school group. Just see a
cell door heavier than all of us put together, just
suddenly move itself shut. I've been in there and I've
seen the ball and chain just start swinging against the hook.
I've been in there, I've seen things move. I'd seen
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things physically interacted with with something that couldn't be seen
by the naked eye. And this time I was the door,
I was the ball and chain, I was I was
the thing that it interacted with.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Well, thankfully that wasn't a regular occurrence. You know, that's
one of those things where people ask me about physical
like touching a lot, like you know, if something pushes
you or shoves you or you know. Now, if that
happens all the time, that's one thing what I do
theorize that sometimes spirits don't necessarily know their own strength
(19:34):
sometimes or you know, as we say, they kind of
overshoot the basket, like they're trying to get your attention,
and it results in something a little more physical than
maybe they intended. And so that could go a couple
of ways. They could go, oh, no, look what I
just almost did and it never happens again. Or if
you have, you know, something that's a little more malicious,
it could be like, oh, look what I could do.
(19:56):
You know. So it doesn't sound like it was the
latter in your case, thankfully.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, I don't think so. I don't know. I don't
know how many energies, how many independent energies, how many
conscious energies or subconscious energies, whether they be ripple effects, whatever,
I don't know. I've not gotten an opportunity to sit
(20:24):
down with all of them and have rational conversations.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
That would make my job a lot easier if we could. No, So,
now you're obviously not the only one having experiences there,
and so I've talked to you about this before, but
I always I always find it interesting that when you
go to that jail, it is such a tourist attraction
(20:50):
and it is like, I don't want to say cheesy,
but it is kind of like one of those old
school kind of roadside attractions. Like you go and there's
you know, you guys are serving ice cream. You know.
Our personal favorite is the giant upside down alligator. You
can take a picture next to, you know, and and
(21:14):
it's just got this really kind of you know, fun vibe.
And then you go inside and you hear these horrific
stories of what inmates endured and and and what they
you know, the conditions that they were living in, and
you know, you see how small the cells are, and
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you hear how many people are actually packed in there,
and it's just such an interesting dichotomy of energy and
and so do you think that that does something to
the space in a way. Do you think that the
building is kind of affected by that or do you
think that like things change depending on what's happening, like
(21:56):
the daytime activities versus the nighttime.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I will say that I've got I've got my fair
share of theories. M I think that I think that
human empathy still plays a huge part in there. I
think that I think that.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
The the energy that was that was released into that building,
the the sorts of things that that seeped into the
walls and.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
The floors, you know, that will never go away. I
think that I think that they they can be revived
and refreshed with that empathy when somebody like you walks
into that space and and feels that and sees that.
I think that that that does play an interactive role
(22:47):
and in what still takes place in there. And I
think that that happens when somebody like you sees the
size of those cells, sees the nature of the beds
in which they slept, and makes those realizations.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I completely agree. And you know, it's uh. I do
think that sometimes. I think sometimes energy and activity isn't
necessarily a person per se or their consciousness, but it's
almost just like the build up of maybe tragedy or
turmoil that happened. And I think the perfect example of
(23:25):
that is when you go into solitary confinement there. You know,
when we took chip coffee there our psychic medium, you know,
we didn't want him to see that he was walking
into a jail. All he knew was he was in
Florida and he was insane. Augustin he probably thought he
was going to the lighthouse or something. But you know,
the way that we work around that is we bring
(23:47):
him to places blindfolded. And I think probably the most
guilty I've ever felt was when we brought him there
blindfolded and sat him right down into solitary and he
had no idea where he was, and he just completely
became overwhelmed with emotion, to the point that I was
(24:07):
crying just looking at him, and I kept asking, like,
do you want me to get you? Are you ready?
And he wanted to keep feeling it and try to
get more information, but it was so hard to watch.
And so do other people, not just psychics, but do
other people go into solitary and feel that as well.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, people who have never really been in tune with
their own responses in that regard come to moments of
understanding in that building And one of the most frequent
areas where that happens is when they get too close
to solitary confinement. You know, it's by the way, for
(24:50):
anybody who has seen the show, I can tell you
firsthand that yes, poor sweet love, wonderful chip and he's
such a great guy. I watched you lead him. Uh. Well,
I watched him get led across the property blindfolded. He
(25:10):
had no idea where he was. I I watched this happen. Uh.
And and yes, his response was real. Uh, it wasn't.
It wasn't something that that I didn't see coming. And
I I also felt that guilt. I felt I felt
really really terrible for for the poor guy. And a
(25:34):
lot of people have have that response in there. A
lot of people will will feel a sense of heartbreak
or or start crying for no reason, become overwhelmed, uh,
in a way that sometimes manifests itself physically where they
start to feel dizzy, lightheaded. Suddenly it's too much. I
(25:54):
have to sit down. I I can't keep going. And
it happens very frequently. Right around that cell.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I could see that. And then you said, I think
I remember you telling me a story once about solitary,
like a group seeing something or experiencing something. What can
what can people experience near a solitary?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Thank you for asking me about that. That is one
of my favorite stories. So I used to I used
to have to hire these these people who would would
come in and you know they're they're going to tell
stories for a living. They're going to play cops and
robbers for a living. And you pointed out by the
way the tone, the atmosphere there at the property, it
has to be set up in a way to where
people can find what they're looking for and only what
(26:36):
they're looking for. If you want to find the truth
in the building, you will through the presentation. But if
you're there with your family and you just want to,
you know, play cops and robbers and take a few
fun pictures, you can do that too. And and this
poor sweet young guy just just started his new job
(26:58):
at the old jail as a storyteller, dressed as a prisoner.
He was having a great time with it. But he
did not believe in the baron normal, did not believe
in ghosts. He knows, of course, that we're making it
all up, which is perfectly fine with them and the
rest of us. Shruggert shoulders. This happens to so many
of them for the first time when they have their
(27:19):
first experience. But with him, he was in the middle
of telling the story right next to solitary confinement. He's
got this very eager, very interested group listening Joeman. He
was very good at what he did. He's telling his
story and they're taking pictures of everything. One woman in
the group suddenly gasps, and then the person next to
(27:43):
her looks at her camera and gasps too, and then
everybody starts gathering around. Get away from that cell. Get
away from that cell. They told him, you've got to
come for and see this, and he came over and
there she'd gotten a perfect picture of an arm reaching
out from solitary confinement right towards his shoulder. Geez. He
(28:05):
bolted and the group bolted right behind him. Uh, I
got a call. He came downstairs, you know, tried tried
to calm the group down. They were trying to calm
the Troy guide down. He left, he went home again.
Super nice gun. He was great at what he did.
(28:25):
But you know, they have their first intrones are in
that place, and for some of them it's just it's
too much, it's too much to bangor too to have
that much reality. But right in front of you.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, we've had I mean, we've had a few experiences
with crew members on various shows where the same kind
of thing happens where they have their first kind of
real experience. Like they come in thinking that everything we're doing,
I I was just for TV. Oh, I'm sure they're
faking it. Oh I'm sure, Yeah, sure, whatever, And then
they have their first real experience and it becomes a
(28:59):
whole other world to them. But I do think it
makes you think though, beyond what we know, and I
think I think it's a it's a big moment because
it certainly makes you kind of look at your whole
reality differently. You know, you start having thoughts of like
your own mortality, the afterlife, like what is the paranormal?
(29:20):
And so it just once you have that experience, there's
really no turning back. Although I have seen people over
time convince themselves, you know, something else happened or whatever,
but because it becomes too much. But many times it
just opens up a whole new realm of possibilities, and
to a lot of people, those possibilities are terrifying.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah. One of my favorite moments with the team there
and this this this would be a lot of people's
first encounter with an energy that was something that they
couldn't explain right away, would be at the end of
the day, be sitting at the bottom of the stairs,
listening very carefully, waiting for the last tourists to walk
(30:06):
out of the building, because the upstairs portion we let
them explore on their own. And then they leave and
we hear the door open and close, last tour of
the day, you know, the last few people take their
time with their pictures. What will sometimes happen is we'll
be sitting there waiting, you know, for for a half
hour or longer, just hearing the conversation, thinking what could
(30:28):
be taking them so long? Why why are they spending
so much time upstairs? The tour itself wasn't this long.
And then finally somebody gets brave and goes up the
stairs quietly and looks around. Here the conversation. We can
still hear it, except there's nobody up there, and and
that moment, at that moment, you usually see the guide
(30:52):
come running right back down the stairs. Oh my god,
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yes, yeah, that is always so disconcerting when you hear
like full movement things happening, and you're just you assume
someone is there, and when there isn't, it's just your
whole body kind of just turns cold. You're like what
did I just experience? Now another thing that I know
(31:18):
is seeing frequently in the jail, and I have a
theory on these, but maybe you can describe how what
people experience when they see this thing. Now, I understand
you guys have a crawler, So what is the crawler?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So so what it? What it is? What what people experience?
What they what they see or interact with. Is something
so pitch black that when all the lights are out,
when there's nothing but night, when you can't even see
your own hand in front of your face, you can
(31:53):
still see this darkness because it is so black that
it seems it's it's like it's absorbing any light that
that that could possibly illuminate it and turning it into
into something darker than the shadows. It's ah, it almost
(32:14):
looks human. It allmost like almost like it it's midmaking
though it it it. It moves across the floor, it
moves up the wall, it moves across the bars on
the cell block in a way that's not natural. But
(32:36):
when people encounter it for the first time, of course,
it's wildly unnerving. They're absolutely terrified. It's it's something that's
coming for me. I've seen this in movies, Oh my god.
Except I don't think it's conscious. I think that it's
I think it's the remnants of the human experience in there.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
So I have a theory on the crawlers, and I
agree with you. I see them, and we tend to
see them in more like institutional type places where there
was a lot of misery for lack of a better word,
you know, off the top of my head, like obviously
the one that is at the jail, which I saw
(33:22):
when we were there. Waverley Hills has reported one before
trans Alleghany Lunatic Asylum has reported one. I saw one
at the Oddfellows Complex or Belvoir Winery and Liberty, Missouri.
So it's always these places that were institutional in some
way and just had a lot of emotional turmoil. And
(33:45):
so I do agree it's some weird manifestation of that.
And I almost think paranormal investigations are interest in the
paranormal kind of leads it a little bit, as that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, I definitely think so that goes along with my
theory about the the human empathy interacting with the energies.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I think I think when you go looking for it.
If it's if it's there, you're already kind of stirring.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
The pot, right right, And so I do, like I
feel like the jail definitely shifted. They do do investigations
there now, Like I know, whenever we do strange escapes
in Saint Augustine, we always have like a little add
on investigation that people can do at the jail. And
it seems like they're approaching the investigations with a lot
(34:36):
of empathy and sympathy, which I think is great, Like
they you know, focus on like, hey, we're hearing your stories.
We know you know, we are not passing judgment on
you because you are in jail. And it seems like
it gets a lot of responses. So do you think
that the energy has kind of changed over the years
when it became kind of more of a situation where
(34:59):
you were kind of shedding light on the situation as
opposed to maybe like when it first opened, it might
have seemed more of like a kind of a morbid
fascination if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Oh yeah, Well, when it first opened, it was it
was it was not about the these are the atrocities
of our past. Because it opened only a year after
it closed as a jail right as one of Florida's
roadside attractions. You know, the stories that we tell now
are really to pay homage to, you know, the the
(35:35):
pard in history that this building played. I do know
that the energy has changed in there. I don't know.
I don't know how much it's changed, and I don't
know the why, because I also don't know how much
of the energy in there is conscious. I don't know
(35:55):
how many of the energies in there were actually people
that maybe you know they were. They were judged so
harshly in life, perhaps for even things they didn't do,
you know, to to move on from here to their
final judgment might be more than they can bear, and
to to consider the mentality of the time. So I'm
(36:17):
not sure how the energy has changed or why. I
know that I know that it has changed a lot, uh,
and I believe that the empathy and the reasons for
probing have something to do with that. And I'm not
really sure how much of the energy in there is conscious.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Right now, that brings up an interesting point, and that's
kind of your role at the jail now. You were
there for a number of years. I almost felt like
you had kind of a a a really great relationship
with the building. Like I know during during our kind
(36:56):
of reveal at the end of Kindred, there we play
some EVPs for you and you got visibly emotional, like
there were tears in your eyes when you heard those voices,
and so I know you were attached to that building.
How does it feel to not be there now?
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And then?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Do you think that they miss you?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
No, I don't think they missed me at all. I
mean that's sweet, but I think you never know I
got true true. I think I was. I think I
was definitely more invested in their stories though than they
were in mind. And so uh uh so so yeah,
(37:42):
the I'll say this about about the investigation that that
you and the crew did. You and Adam you. I
I've worked with several paranormal groups. I've worked with a
few of the TV shows that have come in there,
I've worked with, uh. I've worked with most of them actually,
uh during my tenure. But when you, when you came in,
(38:04):
you you approached it from from a sense of sincerity
that I had not yet seen. Uh. In fact, I
did not yet experienced a group come in and be
as honest and forthright about the investigation. If if you'd
come in and done the investigation and found nothing, uh,
it would have been a very boring episode. But you
(38:25):
wouldn't have fabricated anything. You no, no, and I and
and that amount of honesty was was something that I
was unfamiliar with with paranormal groups, especially from the from
the were we're producing something for commercial consumption. I appreciated that.
I valued that, and and as a result, I think
(38:48):
you came up with more than anybody else had before
the uh, the sincerity at which you approached the stories
and and and uncovered voices that that had previously been quiet.
You know that that I had done a lot of
research for to to try to find. Yeah, yeah, that
(39:12):
that that warranted an honest response from me.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Yeah. Well we pride ourselves on that. So I'm thankful
that you saw that because I am you know that's
we working in paranormal television is Uh, it's hard to
maintain your integrity with with such a with such a profession,
But like Adam and I have been determined since day
(39:38):
one to always be on the level and really like
give it our all. And because we know other investigators
out there want to see that, I want to do that,
and so so thank you. I I really appreciate that.
That means a lot. So so on that note, if
people do want to visit the jail and experience these
(40:00):
things for themselves, like what do they have to do.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Well, they have to show up pretty much. The old
Saint John's County Jail is now a living history museum
in Saint Augustine, Florida. You can go to trolley Tours
dot com to find out more about that and the
the paranormal investigation as well as well as all of
the other things that we do in seven cities, uh
(40:27):
seven historic locations throughout the United States. But but we're
invested in telling the stories. And if you want to
find out more about that and and come and see
it for yourself, then then either show up uh and
and and you'll be welcomed and arrested properly, or or
go check us out online and see about planning your
(40:48):
next trip.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah. Well, everyone I've met there has been wonderful. I
love all of your your tour guides and employees. They're
fully vested, they do great work and we always have
a blast on we go there. Charlotte still brings it
up today that you gave her a private tour, and
she was so thrilled. So I loove that so well.
(41:10):
Thank you so much, Steve, when I super appreciate you
taking the time. And hopefully I'll be down there again
very soon.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Always a pleasure, Amy, and please look.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Me up, I will for sure. I The Old City
Jail is such a striking haunt to me. Every time
I visit. I am astounded at the sound of children
laughing as they bound by me, ice cream cones in hand.
(41:43):
The building itself looms amid all the vacationers and tourists.
A cob artifacts inside, including an extensive shive collection. While
I'm sure the more lively energy is welcome in a
place that once harbored so much death and despair, I
can't help but wonder about how much of that imprint
is left. Because when the laughing children have departed and
the doors closed for the evening, just as the sun
(42:05):
is beginning to set, the Old City Jail becomes an
entirely different place. I'm Amy Bruney, and this was Haunted Road.
Haunted Road is hosted and written by me Amy Bruney,
with additional research by Taylor Haggerdorn and Cassandra de Alba.
(42:28):
This show is edited and produced by rema El Kali,
with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers Aaron Manke,
Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Haunted Road is a production
of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Learn
more about this show over at Grimanmild dot com, and
for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(42:53):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
and Mild from Aaron Manky listener Discretion is Advised. Founded
in fifteen sixty five, Saint Augustine is the oldest continuously
occupied city in America. It's home to the Fountain of
Youth at least sort of, and some of the most
(00:22):
beautiful Spanish Revival architecture in the country. But there's a
dark side to all of that history. Corruption ran rampant
in Saint Augustine when some people would be unjustly imprisoned
on flimsy, sometimes unwarranted charges. The conditions of the Saint
John County Jail were so inhumane that inmates were referred
(00:43):
to as the product. So few people survived the harsh
imprisonment that any sentence there was considered a life sentence. Today,
the Saint Augustine Old City Jail is one of the
city's biggest tourist attractions, with tours led by costumed re enactors.
They walk the old jail's corridors, recreating what life was
like there for inmates. What some people don't realize is
(01:06):
that many of the inmates never left. I'm Amy Bruney,
and this is haunted road. A beachfront city on Florida's
(01:28):
Atlantic coast, Saint Augustine brings in millions of tourists annually
to take advantage of the white sand beaches and the
unique historic attractions like the Saint Augustine Lighthouse. Regular listeners
might remember the shadowy figures in disembodied Children's Laughter of
that remarkably haunted place. The city is also home to
what some claim is the real Fountain of youths at
(01:48):
the Fountain of Youth Archaeological Park. It was rumored to
have been discovered by Ponce Delion and his explorations of
Florida's coast in fifteen thirteen, one hundred and fifty years ago.
While the historic architecture Saint Augustine might have looked similar,
the city wasn't a widely known tourist destination like it
is today. But one man, Henry Flagler, was about to
find the ancient city as it's nicknamed and changed Saint
(02:11):
Augustine forever. Flagler co founded Standard Oil with John D.
Rockefeller in eighteen sixty three and quickly found himself enormously wealthy,
according to the Flagler Museum, when he died in nineteen thirteen,
his estate was worth one hundred million dollars or about
twelve point five billion in today's money. In eighteen seventy eight,
his wife, Mary Flagler, was in failing house suffering from tuberculosis.
(02:35):
Doctors ordered them to leave New York City winter and
head to warmer climes to help Mary's recovery. The couple
headed to Jacksonville, Florida, but Mary did not survive the trip.
Soon afterward, Flagler remarried and discovered Saint Augustine, about forty
miles away, according to Oldtown Trolley tours. He found the
area charming and brimming with possibilities, but sorely lacking in accommodations.
(02:59):
Flagler began to invest in real estate, including constructing a
luxury hotel that would be a beacon to wealthy travelers.
Now part of Flagler College, the Poncedalion Hotel was constructed
in eighteen eighty eight. It was designed to attract rich
and famous guests looking for a warm weather escape. The
five hundred forty room hotel was designed in the Spanish
(03:19):
Revival by the same architectural firm that shortly afterwards would
design the New York Public Library with the help of
Flagler's friend Thomas Edison. The hotel was one of the
first in America to be built hardwired for electricity. Lewis
Comfort Tiffany and his company Tiffany Company handled the interior design.
Murals inside were painted by George Maynard, who later painted
(03:39):
murals inside the Library of Congress. Everything was perfect except
one thing. Directly across the street from the Poncedallyon Hotel
was the Saint John County Jail, and it simply would
not do to have that be the most prominent thing
Flagler's well healed clientel would see from his marquee establishment.
But baires, as you might guess, have an easy way
(04:01):
of solving problems. Flagler got the prison moved with one
flex of his checkbook. He donated ten thousand dollars to
the Saint John County Commissioners to build a new jail
far out of sight of his hotel. According to Visit
Saint Augustine, Flagler wanted to ensure a safe and pleasant
environment for his patrons by creating a secure fortress to
house criminals. It was important to Flagler that the exterior
(04:24):
appearance of this fortress wouldn't disrupt the majestic atmosphere of
the ancient city. To accomplish this, it was designed with
a Romanesque Revival style that gave it the distinct appearance
of a Victorian house. Without interior comfort and charm, it
was almost unrecognizable as a jail apart from the barred windows.
The architects PJ. Poly Jail Company would go on to
(04:45):
design Alcatraz shortly after. The Saint John County Jail was
designed to hold seventy two male and twelve female inmates.
The two story prison had a northern wing which housed
the general population, a maximum security area, a women's area
in na in the kitchen. The southern wing had an
office for the sheriff and living quarters for his family.
(05:09):
In fact, the building was so appealing that people would
go there assuming it was a hotel and asking for
a room. It was a nice looking jail, but what
was going on inside was horrific. Dana Saint Clair, director
of the Saint Augustine four hundred and fiftieth Commission, told
the Saint Augustine Record. According to Anne Coleby, author of
Wicked Saint Augustine, when Pedro Menendez de Aviles founded Saint
(05:31):
Augustine in fifteen sixty five. His New World survival kit
included gambling, liquor, and ladies for hire. For the next
four hundred years, these three industries were vital in keeping
the city financially afloat. The illicit activities, sometimes illegal and
sometimes just thought of as socially unacceptable, were carried out
right under the noses of local law enforcement and politicians.
(05:51):
After all, those people were regular participants. They patronized the
illegal gambling parlors and drank at the speakeasies, even though
you know probabit. As Colby told the Saint Augustine Record,
there were a number of arrests, but very few convictions
for either prostitution or running a brothel. Because all of
the law enforcement, all the judges, most of the city
council members, they were all customers. That corruption went a
(06:14):
lot further all the way through how the prison was run.
Some of the prison's population, to be sure, deserved to
be there. Sim Jackson was hanged in nineteen oh eight
for murdering his wife with a straight razor. Charlie Powell
was hanged in nineteen ten for killing a man for
spreading rumors about his wife, but some definitely did not
deserve to be incarcerated. Saint Clair added, people were rounded
(06:36):
up on trumped up charges like loitering and intoxication, and
in those days, when you were rounded up, it was
pretty much a death sentence. Gina Kish, history teller for
the Old Jail, told Saint Augustine Register that some of
the women imprisoned had committed no crime at all. They
would drag women of low reputation down here, so if
you didn't have a good family name or a husband,
you could be thrown in jail, she said. Inside its walls,
(06:58):
conditions were unliving. Overcrowded cells allowed disease to run rampant,
and high tensions led to vicious violence between prisoners as
ghosts and gravestones. Described by today's standards, these cells would
be considered unlivable for humans. No blankets or pillows were provided,
and the mattresses stuffed with Spanish moss were often infested
with red bugs. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the site continues, the Old
(07:21):
jail had no bathing facilities or sanitation for human waste,
which meant the inmates were not able to bathe, and
there was a stench that could not be eliminated if
the men's conditions were bad, the women's conditions were worse.
There were six women to a cell that was only
designed to hold four, and none of the women's cells
had electricity or running water. The only bathroom facilities the
(07:42):
women had access to were buckets. The men's cells got
plumbing in nineteen fourteen, but the women never did. As
Ghosts and Gravestones described, Maximum Security housed the most dangerous
prisoners held at the jail and included a death row
cell for those condemned to die. The Maximum Security cells,
located in the back of the building, were equipped with stockades,
(08:02):
a torture cage, and a clear view of the execution area.
The solitary confinement cell had no bed at all. Every
inmate was required to work. Men released out to local
farms to work in the fields in a money making
scheme to enrich the county and worked in terrible conditions.
They were transported to the farms and cages, working in
chain gangs, their ankles shackled together the entire time. As
(08:25):
Kish described, they weren't working with the proper equipment and
sometimes didn't even have shoes. The men would often return
from the fields bleeding from wounds, inflicted by their manacles.
It was more extreme than harsh. Saint Clair said. Those
who were too infirmed to endure hard labor, even by
(08:47):
the harshest standard, were permitted to work in the prison garden.
Women were required to cook and clean for the male
prisoners and for the sheriff's family. They were like prison maids.
Kish said it was a dark, dirty place. On average,
prisoners only stayed alive about two years in these conditions.
The only time a doctor came was on hanging days.
Kish said the death rate was so notorious and an
(09:09):
unrecorded number of people have died here. Inmates would succumb
to illness or malnutrition, be killed by violent means, or
be executed for their crimes. You might guess that not
all of them deserve that punishment, and you would be right.
One man in particular was executed, although he was essentially
proven innocent. Jim Kirby and Robert Lee were accused of murder,
and both were convicted and hanged in nineteen oh one.
(09:32):
Even though Kirby was adamant that Lee had nothing to
do with the crime, he was not exonerated. According to
an article from the Saint Augustine Record on the day
of the hanging, Lee said, they are hanging an innocent man,
as God is my judge, and knowing that I must
face him innocent or guilty in a few minutes, I
am innocent. In the same article, Kirby said, I have
tried to save Lee but failed. But you can state
(09:55):
that he knew nothing of the affair until it was over.
A total of eight men were hanged for their crimes
in the prison. Such huge crowds would gather for hangings
that people would climb telephone poles to get a better view.
The jail closed in nineteen fifty three after sixty two
years of mistreating prisoners, throughout which it was given multiple
citations for its conditions. Today, it's one of the most
(10:16):
popular tourist attractions in the city and one of the
most haunted places in America. Perimal investigators travel from thousands
of miles away to take ghost tours of the jail
and tried to communicate with spirits of the inmates. As
Kish told the Saint Augustine Register staff and visitors have
experienced paranormal activity in the jail. Various people have seen
various things throughout the day. She said. People report being
(10:37):
touched and grabbed to the point where a person will
leave bruised. They also report smelling sewage smells or sickly
sweet aromas, neither of which have been present for more
than seventy years. A common paranormal sighting is the crawler,
a shadow figure that crawls on the floor in the
cell block. Visitors commonly report being touched by something cold
or feeling as though something is tugging at their hair.
(10:59):
Another frequent occurrence is hearing men in chains. According to
Ghosts and Gravestones, one of the many complaints to those
living close to the Old Jail is the frequent sounds
of footsteps walking inside. Loud, plunky noises indicate that these
footsteps belong to the disembodied souls of the criminals that
once lived and died there. Guests touring the facility have
also reported this phenomenon. People also report hearing phantom dogs barking.
(11:25):
Maybe most haunting are the sounds of lingering suffering, as
Ghosts and Gravestones says, there are many reports of whaling
moaning sounds coming from the maximum security and solitary confinement areas,
and some visitors have even reported hearing the voice of
a little girl coming from the sheriff's quarters. Others have
heard someone whistling at them, and several guests have reported
hearing a dastardly laugh in one of the women's cells.
(11:48):
Another spot that's reported to be particularly haunted, according to
Old City Ghosts, is a solitary cell. Folks are challenged
to stay in the cell and sit alone in the
far left corner. Many have claimed to have seen in
a shadowy figure lurk toward them, a sort of shade
that scurries and tries to tear at them. Everyone who
has taken the test has attested to the experience and
(12:08):
the fuse that somehow left disappointed, later claimed to have
uncovered scratch marks on their belly the very next day.
While on that note, up next, we'll be talking with
Stephen Mitchell. Stephen was the director and manager of the
Old Saint Augustine Jail for many, many years, and you
may recognize him from our episode of Kindred Spirits filmed there,
as well as one of the first ever episodes of
(12:29):
Ghost Hunters many moons ago. He has got some stories
to tell and a lot of paranormal history to share,
so that is coming up after the break. I am
(12:49):
now joined by Stephen Mitchell. And you might be familiar
with Stephen if you watched our episode at the Old
City Jail of Kindred Spirits, and he was also the
client for the episode of ghost Hunters that happened there
so so long ago. So welcome Stephen, I am Now
(13:10):
what was now? I know you've moved on to a
different position within the same company and so you're not
at the jail any longer, but you spent many many
years there. What was your capacity at the jail.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
The time that a lot of this was happening. I was.
I was running our daytime museum operations and overseeing our
ghosts and gravestones operations at night, so I got all
sorts of exposure to all of the varied energies that
take place in their day and night.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, you know, it's something people always ask and like,
you know, do hauntings only happen at night? Why do
you investigate at night? And the jail's kind of a
great example of that, just because you know, we we
tend to investigate at night only because locations are a
lot quieter, and especially like in a high traffic area
(14:03):
like where the jail is there's less cars outside, there's
clearly less people. Sometimes light anomalies are more apparent in
the dark. But the jail is unique because people do
have experiences day or night. And I kind of sometimes
wonder if people might be having experiences when they're touring
during the day and not even realize it.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
You know, I'll be honest, I think that. I think
that a lot of people realize it, But a lot
of people come to that that moment, that threshold of
questioning themselves, you know, as my imagination getting away from me,
did I really see that? Or am I crazy? And
there The moment that really has always surprised me is
when it's easier for somebody to convince themselves that they
(14:50):
had a momentary lapse of sanity, that that it's easier
to believe that, oh no, it's okay, I'm insane, I'm insane,
that couldn't have actually had and and they they're able
to shrug it off that way and walk away. It's
easier for them to confront that than to think for
a moment that something out of the ordinary, something paranormal,
(15:11):
just interacted with them in the same space.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Isn't that so funny? And then I be people on
the opposite end of the spectrum who are probably having
some something medical going on, but insists that it's paranormal.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
So the curtain move, The curtain moved, conditioning kicked. No,
it's a ghost.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yes, Now, when did you know the jail was haunted?
When did you just go, Okay, there is something going
on here?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Oh boy, what I have to say. I don't know
that there's a singular difining moment. I know that I
was already accepting of the idea at the time that
I was working at the jail, and my first experience
probably was more subtle. My first interaction with the energy
(16:03):
was was probably something that that I shrugged off or
or dismissed as a momentary. Uh. I don't know what
that was, but but I'm not I'm not bothered by it.
The first the first time that that I think something
happened that I I couldn't explain through any other means.
(16:24):
Was was the brief glimpse of a full on apparition
a person that was there that shouldn't have been there,
that that was suddenly not there in in a millisecond,
and and just just that brief little moment in time.
(16:44):
I I knew that I wasn't alone in.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
The building, right, And so yeah, when you see something
like that and you're supposedly alone, uh, and you actually
see it kind of manifest and then disappear like that
obviously catches you off guard. But I know you've had
some pretty major experiences, and especially that one experience you
had on the staircase, which I think was kind of
(17:06):
a one off happening. But can you describe what happened
in that moment?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, that was that was definitely a pretty intense moment,
coming up the staircase, heading up to the second floor
and feeling feeling something stopped me, feeling a hand right
pressed up against my chest, feeling it pushed me back,
(17:32):
and realizing that I've got to move my feet because
something's going to move me and if I if I
don't back down, I and I got pushed right down
those stairs. That was kind of one of those moments
that I h I really had questioned why am I
(17:53):
still here?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
I get why am I still working here? But it
also doesn't sound like that was a regular cur You know,
what were you feeling in that moment? Was there like
a different vibe than usual, like, why do you think
that happened? I know it was a very long time ago,
but why do you think that happened on that day?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I can't explain why that happened anymore that, but what
I can say is the number of thoughts that went
through my rational mind is as I tried to figure
out what, how, why, and realizing this, yes, this is
the first time and maybe the only time anything like
that would ever happen in that building to a person.
(18:33):
Not the first time it's happened. You know, I'd been
in there with with a school group. Just see a
cell door heavier than all of us put together, just
suddenly move itself shut. I've been in there and I've
seen the ball and chain just start swinging against the hook.
I've been in there, I've seen things move. I'd seen
(18:54):
things physically interacted with with something that couldn't be seen
by the naked eye. And this time I was the door,
I was the ball and chain, I was I was
the thing that it interacted with.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Well, thankfully that wasn't a regular occurrence. You know, that's
one of those things where people ask me about physical
like touching a lot, like you know, if something pushes
you or shoves you or you know. Now, if that
happens all the time, that's one thing what I do
theorize that sometimes spirits don't necessarily know their own strength
(19:34):
sometimes or you know, as we say, they kind of
overshoot the basket, like they're trying to get your attention,
and it results in something a little more physical than
maybe they intended. And so that could go a couple
of ways. They could go, oh, no, look what I
just almost did and it never happens again. Or if
you have, you know, something that's a little more malicious,
it could be like, oh, look what I could do.
(19:56):
You know. So it doesn't sound like it was the
latter in your case, thankfully.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, I don't think so. I don't know. I don't
know how many energies, how many independent energies, how many
conscious energies or subconscious energies, whether they be ripple effects, whatever,
I don't know. I've not gotten an opportunity to sit
(20:24):
down with all of them and have rational conversations.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
That would make my job a lot easier if we could. No, So,
now you're obviously not the only one having experiences there,
and so I've talked to you about this before, but
I always I always find it interesting that when you
go to that jail, it is such a tourist attraction
(20:50):
and it is like, I don't want to say cheesy,
but it is kind of like one of those old
school kind of roadside attractions. Like you go and there's
you know, you guys are serving ice cream. You know.
Our personal favorite is the giant upside down alligator. You
can take a picture next to, you know, and and
(21:14):
it's just got this really kind of you know, fun vibe.
And then you go inside and you hear these horrific
stories of what inmates endured and and and what they
you know, the conditions that they were living in, and
you know, you see how small the cells are, and
(21:36):
you hear how many people are actually packed in there,
and it's just such an interesting dichotomy of energy and
and so do you think that that does something to
the space in a way. Do you think that the
building is kind of affected by that or do you
think that like things change depending on what's happening, like
(21:56):
the daytime activities versus the nighttime.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I will say that I've got I've got my fair
share of theories. M I think that I think that
human empathy still plays a huge part in there. I
think that I think that.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
The the energy that was that was released into that building,
the the sorts of things that that seeped into the
walls and.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
The floors, you know, that will never go away. I
think that I think that they they can be revived
and refreshed with that empathy when somebody like you walks
into that space and and feels that and sees that.
I think that that that does play an interactive role
(22:47):
and in what still takes place in there. And I
think that that happens when somebody like you sees the
size of those cells, sees the nature of the beds
in which they slept, and makes those realizations.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I completely agree. And you know, it's uh. I do
think that sometimes. I think sometimes energy and activity isn't
necessarily a person per se or their consciousness, but it's
almost just like the build up of maybe tragedy or
turmoil that happened. And I think the perfect example of
(23:25):
that is when you go into solitary confinement there. You know,
when we took chip coffee there our psychic medium, you know,
we didn't want him to see that he was walking
into a jail. All he knew was he was in
Florida and he was insane. Augustin he probably thought he
was going to the lighthouse or something. But you know,
the way that we work around that is we bring
(23:47):
him to places blindfolded. And I think probably the most
guilty I've ever felt was when we brought him there
blindfolded and sat him right down into solitary and he
had no idea where he was, and he just completely
became overwhelmed with emotion, to the point that I was
(24:07):
crying just looking at him, and I kept asking, like,
do you want me to get you? Are you ready?
And he wanted to keep feeling it and try to
get more information, but it was so hard to watch.
And so do other people, not just psychics, but do
other people go into solitary and feel that as well.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, people who have never really been in tune with
their own responses in that regard come to moments of
understanding in that building And one of the most frequent
areas where that happens is when they get too close
to solitary confinement. You know, it's by the way, for
(24:50):
anybody who has seen the show, I can tell you
firsthand that yes, poor sweet love, wonderful chip and he's
such a great guy. I watched you lead him. Uh. Well,
I watched him get led across the property blindfolded. He
(25:10):
had no idea where he was. I I watched this happen. Uh.
And and yes, his response was real. Uh, it wasn't.
It wasn't something that that I didn't see coming. And
I I also felt that guilt. I felt I felt
really really terrible for for the poor guy. And a
(25:34):
lot of people have have that response in there. A
lot of people will will feel a sense of heartbreak
or or start crying for no reason, become overwhelmed, uh,
in a way that sometimes manifests itself physically where they
start to feel dizzy, lightheaded. Suddenly it's too much. I
(25:54):
have to sit down. I I can't keep going. And
it happens very frequently. Right around that cell.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I could see that. And then you said, I think
I remember you telling me a story once about solitary,
like a group seeing something or experiencing something. What can
what can people experience near a solitary?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Thank you for asking me about that. That is one
of my favorite stories. So I used to I used
to have to hire these these people who would would
come in and you know they're they're going to tell
stories for a living. They're going to play cops and
robbers for a living. And you pointed out by the
way the tone, the atmosphere there at the property, it
has to be set up in a way to where
people can find what they're looking for and only what
(26:36):
they're looking for. If you want to find the truth
in the building, you will through the presentation. But if
you're there with your family and you just want to,
you know, play cops and robbers and take a few
fun pictures, you can do that too. And and this
poor sweet young guy just just started his new job
(26:58):
at the old jail as a storyteller, dressed as a prisoner.
He was having a great time with it. But he
did not believe in the baron normal, did not believe
in ghosts. He knows, of course, that we're making it
all up, which is perfectly fine with them and the
rest of us. Shruggert shoulders. This happens to so many
of them for the first time when they have their
(27:19):
first experience. But with him, he was in the middle
of telling the story right next to solitary confinement. He's
got this very eager, very interested group listening Joeman. He
was very good at what he did. He's telling his
story and they're taking pictures of everything. One woman in
the group suddenly gasps, and then the person next to
(27:43):
her looks at her camera and gasps too, and then
everybody starts gathering around. Get away from that cell. Get
away from that cell. They told him, you've got to
come for and see this, and he came over and
there she'd gotten a perfect picture of an arm reaching
out from solitary confinement right towards his shoulder. Geez. He
(28:05):
bolted and the group bolted right behind him. Uh, I
got a call. He came downstairs, you know, tried tried
to calm the group down. They were trying to calm
the Troy guide down. He left, he went home again.
Super nice gun. He was great at what he did.
(28:25):
But you know, they have their first intrones are in
that place, and for some of them it's just it's
too much, it's too much to bangor too to have
that much reality. But right in front of you.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, we've had I mean, we've had a few experiences
with crew members on various shows where the same kind
of thing happens where they have their first kind of
real experience. Like they come in thinking that everything we're doing,
I I was just for TV. Oh, I'm sure they're
faking it. Oh I'm sure, Yeah, sure, whatever, And then
they have their first real experience and it becomes a
(28:59):
whole other world to them. But I do think it
makes you think though, beyond what we know, and I
think I think it's a it's a big moment because
it certainly makes you kind of look at your whole
reality differently. You know, you start having thoughts of like
your own mortality, the afterlife, like what is the paranormal?
(29:20):
And so it just once you have that experience, there's
really no turning back. Although I have seen people over
time convince themselves, you know, something else happened or whatever,
but because it becomes too much. But many times it
just opens up a whole new realm of possibilities, and
to a lot of people, those possibilities are terrifying.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah. One of my favorite moments with the team there
and this this this would be a lot of people's
first encounter with an energy that was something that they
couldn't explain right away, would be at the end of
the day, be sitting at the bottom of the stairs,
listening very carefully, waiting for the last tourists to walk
(30:06):
out of the building, because the upstairs portion we let
them explore on their own. And then they leave and
we hear the door open and close, last tour of
the day, you know, the last few people take their
time with their pictures. What will sometimes happen is we'll
be sitting there waiting, you know, for for a half
hour or longer, just hearing the conversation, thinking what could
(30:28):
be taking them so long? Why why are they spending
so much time upstairs? The tour itself wasn't this long.
And then finally somebody gets brave and goes up the
stairs quietly and looks around. Here the conversation. We can
still hear it, except there's nobody up there, and and
that moment, at that moment, you usually see the guide
(30:52):
come running right back down the stairs. Oh my god,
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yes, yeah, that is always so disconcerting when you hear
like full movement things happening, and you're just you assume
someone is there, and when there isn't, it's just your
whole body kind of just turns cold. You're like what
did I just experience? Now another thing that I know
(31:18):
is seeing frequently in the jail, and I have a
theory on these, but maybe you can describe how what
people experience when they see this thing. Now, I understand
you guys have a crawler, So what is the crawler?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So so what it? What it is? What what people experience?
What they what they see or interact with. Is something
so pitch black that when all the lights are out,
when there's nothing but night, when you can't even see
your own hand in front of your face, you can
(31:53):
still see this darkness because it is so black that
it seems it's it's like it's absorbing any light that
that that could possibly illuminate it and turning it into
into something darker than the shadows. It's ah, it almost
(32:14):
looks human. It allmost like almost like it it's midmaking
though it it it. It moves across the floor, it
moves up the wall, it moves across the bars on
the cell block in a way that's not natural. But
(32:36):
when people encounter it for the first time, of course,
it's wildly unnerving. They're absolutely terrified. It's it's something that's
coming for me. I've seen this in movies, Oh my god.
Except I don't think it's conscious. I think that it's
I think it's the remnants of the human experience in there.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
So I have a theory on the crawlers, and I
agree with you. I see them, and we tend to
see them in more like institutional type places where there
was a lot of misery for lack of a better word,
you know, off the top of my head, like obviously
the one that is at the jail, which I saw
(33:22):
when we were there. Waverley Hills has reported one before
trans Alleghany Lunatic Asylum has reported one. I saw one
at the Oddfellows Complex or Belvoir Winery and Liberty, Missouri.
So it's always these places that were institutional in some
way and just had a lot of emotional turmoil. And
(33:45):
so I do agree it's some weird manifestation of that.
And I almost think paranormal investigations are interest in the
paranormal kind of leads it a little bit, as that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, I definitely think so that goes along with my
theory about the the human empathy interacting with the energies.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I think I think when you go looking for it.
If it's if it's there, you're already kind of stirring.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
The pot, right right, And so I do, like I
feel like the jail definitely shifted. They do do investigations
there now, Like I know, whenever we do strange escapes
in Saint Augustine, we always have like a little add
on investigation that people can do at the jail. And
it seems like they're approaching the investigations with a lot
(34:36):
of empathy and sympathy, which I think is great, Like
they you know, focus on like, hey, we're hearing your stories.
We know you know, we are not passing judgment on
you because you are in jail. And it seems like
it gets a lot of responses. So do you think
that the energy has kind of changed over the years
when it became kind of more of a situation where
(34:59):
you were kind of shedding light on the situation as
opposed to maybe like when it first opened, it might
have seemed more of like a kind of a morbid
fascination if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Oh yeah, Well, when it first opened, it was it
was it was not about the these are the atrocities
of our past. Because it opened only a year after
it closed as a jail right as one of Florida's
roadside attractions. You know, the stories that we tell now
are really to pay homage to, you know, the the
(35:35):
pard in history that this building played. I do know
that the energy has changed in there. I don't know.
I don't know how much it's changed, and I don't
know the why, because I also don't know how much
of the energy in there is conscious. I don't know
(35:55):
how many of the energies in there were actually people
that maybe you know they were. They were judged so
harshly in life, perhaps for even things they didn't do,
you know, to to move on from here to their
final judgment might be more than they can bear, and
to to consider the mentality of the time. So I'm
(36:17):
not sure how the energy has changed or why. I
know that I know that it has changed a lot, uh,
and I believe that the empathy and the reasons for
probing have something to do with that. And I'm not
really sure how much of the energy in there is conscious.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Right now, that brings up an interesting point, and that's
kind of your role at the jail now. You were
there for a number of years. I almost felt like
you had kind of a a a really great relationship
with the building. Like I know during during our kind
(36:56):
of reveal at the end of Kindred, there we play
some EVPs for you and you got visibly emotional, like
there were tears in your eyes when you heard those voices,
and so I know you were attached to that building.
How does it feel to not be there now?
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And then?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Do you think that they miss you?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
No, I don't think they missed me at all. I
mean that's sweet, but I think you never know I
got true true. I think I was. I think I
was definitely more invested in their stories though than they
were in mind. And so uh uh so so yeah,
(37:42):
the I'll say this about about the investigation that that
you and the crew did. You and Adam you. I
I've worked with several paranormal groups. I've worked with a
few of the TV shows that have come in there,
I've worked with, uh. I've worked with most of them actually,
uh during my tenure. But when you, when you came in,
(38:04):
you you approached it from from a sense of sincerity
that I had not yet seen. Uh. In fact, I
did not yet experienced a group come in and be
as honest and forthright about the investigation. If if you'd
come in and done the investigation and found nothing, uh,
it would have been a very boring episode. But you
(38:25):
wouldn't have fabricated anything. You no, no, and I and
and that amount of honesty was was something that I
was unfamiliar with with paranormal groups, especially from the from
the were we're producing something for commercial consumption. I appreciated that.
I valued that, and and as a result, I think
(38:48):
you came up with more than anybody else had before
the uh, the sincerity at which you approached the stories
and and and uncovered voices that that had previously been quiet.
You know that that I had done a lot of
research for to to try to find. Yeah, yeah, that
(39:12):
that that warranted an honest response from me.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Yeah. Well we pride ourselves on that. So I'm thankful
that you saw that because I am you know that's
we working in paranormal television is Uh, it's hard to
maintain your integrity with with such a with such a profession,
But like Adam and I have been determined since day
(39:38):
one to always be on the level and really like
give it our all. And because we know other investigators
out there want to see that, I want to do that,
and so so thank you. I I really appreciate that.
That means a lot. So so on that note, if
people do want to visit the jail and experience these
(40:00):
things for themselves, like what do they have to do.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Well, they have to show up pretty much. The old
Saint John's County Jail is now a living history museum
in Saint Augustine, Florida. You can go to trolley Tours
dot com to find out more about that and the
the paranormal investigation as well as well as all of
the other things that we do in seven cities, uh
(40:27):
seven historic locations throughout the United States. But but we're
invested in telling the stories. And if you want to
find out more about that and and come and see
it for yourself, then then either show up uh and
and and you'll be welcomed and arrested properly, or or
go check us out online and see about planning your
(40:48):
next trip.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah. Well, everyone I've met there has been wonderful. I
love all of your your tour guides and employees. They're
fully vested, they do great work and we always have
a blast on we go there. Charlotte still brings it
up today that you gave her a private tour, and
she was so thrilled. So I loove that so well.
(41:10):
Thank you so much, Steve, when I super appreciate you
taking the time. And hopefully I'll be down there again
very soon.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Always a pleasure, Amy, and please look.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Me up, I will for sure. I The Old City
Jail is such a striking haunt to me. Every time
I visit. I am astounded at the sound of children
laughing as they bound by me, ice cream cones in hand.
(41:43):
The building itself looms amid all the vacationers and tourists.
A cob artifacts inside, including an extensive shive collection. While
I'm sure the more lively energy is welcome in a
place that once harbored so much death and despair, I
can't help but wonder about how much of that imprint
is left. Because when the laughing children have departed and
the doors closed for the evening, just as the sun
(42:05):
is beginning to set, the Old City Jail becomes an
entirely different place. I'm Amy Bruney, and this was Haunted Road.
Haunted Road is hosted and written by me Amy Bruney,
with additional research by Taylor Haggerdorn and Cassandra de Alba.
(42:28):
This show is edited and produced by rema El Kali,
with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers Aaron Manke,
Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Haunted Road is a production
of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Learn
more about this show over at Grimanmild dot com, and
for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(42:53):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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