August 10, 2022 • 37 mins
In Asbury Park, NJ in 1934, nearly 100,000 people paid 25 cents apiece to view the charred remains of a shipwreck where 140 people burned to death. Today, the theatre next to where the ship breached is said to be haunted by those killed in the tragedy. Special guest: Kathy Kelly
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion is advised, Hey, friends,
particularly those near California and Arizona. I am heading your
way very soon, and I don't make it out that
way very often. My life with the Afterlife Speaking Tour
(00:21):
is making stops at the Crest Theater in Sacramento on
September four, the Rialto Theater in Tucson, Arizona on September
the Talking Stick Resort in Scottsdale, Arizona on September six,
and the Balboa Theater in San Diego on September. So
tickets can be found at the venues websites, and I
hope to see you there. While filming for a show
(00:54):
called Ghost Hunters that if you didn't know, I spent
seven seasons on, I had what stands to this day
as being the strangest experience I've ever had in a theater.
Adam Burry and I had drawn the short straw when
it came to investigating a very particular claim at a
theater we were filming at. You see, the claim was
that every night at three am, a figure could be
(01:15):
seen high up in the balcony. You had to be
on the stage to see it, but if you saw it,
this figure would wave at you. B s. We all laughed,
but we had to check this out because the facility
was adamant. So as the rest of the team packed
up and left for the night, Adam and I stayed
behind to wait for three am. Again the short straw.
We along with a lone camera operator and producer, perched
(01:38):
on the stage and waited. As the clock ticked three,
we peered up in the darkness. We called out, hello, nothing.
We scanned the seats, scanned the railings, and then we
saw it, not in the balcony, but standing in one
of the doorways at the back of the balcony where
people would enter to take their seats, a white figure
(02:00):
drifting in and out of focus. Hello. We called who
was up there? But we knew no one was there.
We personally watched everyone leave. Plus this didn't look like
a solid person. So we looked at each other and
looked back up in the balcony and we waved, and
I kid you not, that odd white figure lifted what
(02:22):
I assumed to be its arm and started waving back.
And then it just stood there and waved and waved
and did not stop waving, this strange slow wave that
to this day sends chills down my spine. We tried
desperately to capture what we were seeing on camera, but
with how far away it was, it was nearly impossible.
(02:45):
Our camera operator, witnessing this as well, also tried. At
some point we ran up to the balcony to the
very spot where this figure was, but as you can imagine,
no one was there, so you'll just have to take
my word for it. You'll also have to take my word.
Theaters can be crazy haunted, so let's visit one with
some wild history attached to it and of course lots
(03:06):
of ghosts. We're headed to the Paramount Theater in Asbury Park,
New Jersey. I'm Amy Brunei, and this is haunted road.
(03:33):
Early in the morning on September eight, Nur, while the
ship was churning through an intense storm on its way
to New York, flames shot through the walls of the S. S.
Morrow Castle. The blaze destroyed the electrical work and disabled
the communications system, leaving the luxury liner dead in the
water unable to call for help. By the time the
blaze had calmed. Approximately one seven people had perished, many
(03:56):
while asleep in their beds. But from the shore in
Asbury Park, New Jersey, people knew what was happening aboard
the S. S. Morrow Castle. They stood on the beaches
watching the ship burn, powerless to help the people aboard
until their bodies washed up on shore. In the months
that followed, tourists flooded the convention hall and the attached
Paramount Theater, paying twenty five cents apiece to see the
(04:19):
charred remains of the ship, which washed ashore next to
the buildings. Some looted the cabins of the wealthy who
had been aboard. Others speculated about the cause of the
disastrous fire, which was later determined to be arson, saying
it was an inside job by the government or enemies
of the United States. The tragedy left its mark on
the community, and some say filled the theater with the
(04:41):
souls of those who perished and who cannot find rest.
But it wasn't the first time that stretch of coastline
had seen a tragedy on such a grand scale. A
century earlier, another ship burned, killing more than two hundred
people aboard, just off the land where the Paramount Theater
sits today. Is it any wonder the building is full
of ghosts. Founded in eighteen seventy one on the northern
(05:07):
shores of New Jersey, Asbury Park quickly developed into a
resort town. People sunned themselves on the town's beaches, strolled
the boardwalk, and by night danced in its dance halls,
as Ray Gallagher wrote in his History of Asbury Park,
by the early twentieth century, Asbury Park cemented itself as
New Jersey's premier tourist destination. The city decided it needed
(05:28):
a large gathering place for visitors, which would attract even
bigger crowds and drive the growing tourism industry. That place
would be the Beachfront complex housing the Asbury Park Convention
Center and the attached Paramount Theater, which were first planned
in nineteen sixteen, but didn't secure funding until a decade later.
According to the U S Department of the Interior, the
plan to build a convention center in Asbury Park was
(05:51):
steeped in controversy from the start. On the one hand,
there were those who believed that the building was necessary
for Asbury Park to meet the demands of tourists. On
the other hand, there was an equally vociferous group who
maintained that the increased public financial burden would be suicidal.
The complex was designed to accommodate a lot of people,
thirty four hundred in the convention Center and just across
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the arcade connecting the buildings, sixteen hundred in the theater.
They were designed by the same architects who envisioned Manhattan's
Grand Central Station in the eclectic style popular in the day,
with seashells and nautical motifs decorating the facades of the buildings.
Inside the Convention Center is a massive seven hundred pipe
organ built into the walls themselves, so the instrument is
(06:34):
actually part of the architecture. The Department of the Interior
describes the theater's decor is consisting of offset concentric light
panels of amber cathedral glass, interspersed with reinforced plaster, ornamentation
of floral character and female nudes, and perforated ornamentation for ventilation.
When it first opened its doors on New Year's Day
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nineteen thirty, the first movie the theater showed was Howard
He Uses Wings. Not long after, people filled those seats
to watch music legends like Benny Goodman and Duke Ellington perform.
Much later, Asbury Park's biggest claim to fame would be
launching Bruce Springsteen's career. He was born just a few
miles away in Long Branch. While Asbury Park endured a
fire in nineteen seventeen that destroyed four blocks of the city,
(07:19):
the burning of the USS Morrow Castle was a tragedy
on an enormous scale. It brought national attention to the
theater and convention Center when news of the fire broke
as it was happening, though, the ship's burning was more
of a maccabre spectacle, with crowds gathering to watch the
conflagration as it slowly inched its way to shore, nearly
hitting the convention Center before making a turn and breaching
(07:42):
by the theater instead. Maybe it was because entertainment was
hard to come by in the middle of the Great
Depression when the Moroal Castle burned. Maybe it's because many
of the people living in the small seaside city had
never before seen a luxury liner, which broke speed records
when it launched and made weekly voyages for wealthy passengers
between New York and Havanna. But the event was absolutely
(08:03):
a spectacle that brought people in droves. Spectators created what
Gordon Thomas and Max Morgan Wits called an almost carnival
atmosphere where vendors of hot dogs, soft drinks and coffee
did risk business. It took a whole day for the
Morol Castle to drift ashore. The ship continued to smolder
for days, with explosions hampering efforts to search for potential
(08:25):
survivors on board. According to author Eric Larson, who wrote
about the Moral Castle disaster, the remains became a major
tourist attraction, with ordinary people driving to the city from
all over the Tri state area to pose for macabb
photos in front of the ship. In fact, the Asbury
Park City Council proposed keeping the ship there as a
permanent tourist attraction, only to reverse course when the idea
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was condemned as gruesome. Official records say that five hundred
fifty people were on board the ship when it burned,
but some numbers, taking into account Cuban refuge children on
their way to America, placed the count as high as
six d twenty people. Nearly one hundred forty of them died,
many charred beyond identification. One survivor, Cuban national Renee Mendez Capote,
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told the press, I am sure most of the passengers
burned to death while they slept. There was no warning.
I am alive only by luck, accident, or perhaps through
some higher power that watched over me. A contemporary newsreel
referred to it as a terrible tragedy of the sea,
equalled only by those of the Titanic and Lusitania footage
when the reel shows the ship still at sea, with
(09:35):
smoke streaming from the vessel and passengers visible in the water,
as well as locals pulling victims out of the surf
on the Asbury Park beach. Some claim that the Paramount
was used as a makeshift morgue for victims of the fire,
but that claim is hard to substantiate. The majority of
unclaimed bodies were moved to a temporary morgue set up
at the National Guards station Camp more down the coast
(09:57):
in Seagirt. The legend may come from a wishing boat
called the Paramount, which was involved in picking up survivors
and bodies during the wreck. Whether or not the theater
was used as a morgue, it was definitely involved in
the tragedy. Rescuers made early attempts to reach the ships,
burned out wreckage from the building. According to a nineteen
thirty four news article in The Evening Courier, members of
(10:19):
the Coastguards stood on the promenade of the Convention Hall
and using a lile gun, fired a line aboard and
a breeches buoy was rigged up. At least one body
was brought back across from the Morrow Castle via this line,
although what happened to it after that is unclear. As
the article described, one body was taken off the Morrow Castle,
two had been found on the ship, and there was
(10:40):
no telling how many more were burned to death in
their cabins. When the searing flames swept through the liner,
the body was hoisted ashore by the breeches buoy. It
was burned beyond recognition, but it was believed that of
a man. The inspection party found another body, but could
not get to it because of the heat. Others, including journalists,
paid five dollars for use of this breach is booy
(11:02):
to access the ship, with an extra charge to rent
a gas mask or a flashlight. At least one man
used this opportunity to loot the ship of deceased passengers
personal items, including diamonds belonging to a Miss Katherine Cochrane,
whose body still lay in her suite alongside her jewels.
The Convention Center turned the Morrow Castle into a money
(11:23):
making endeavor. According to a contemporary account from The Evening Courier,
the center's management through the place open to the public
at twenty five cents admission. From the balconies of the hall,
a particularly good view could be obtained. A sign in
front of the hall read twenty five cents to see
the Ss morrow Castle. Benefit of the families who died.
(11:44):
It's estimated that in the six months the boat was
on the beach, over one hundred thousand people came to
see it. There was, though, some good news that came
from the tragedy. According to the Asbury Park Historical Society,
the devastating fire aboard the Morrow Castle was a cat
A list for improved shipboard fire safety. Today, the use
of fire retarded materials, automatic fire doors, and ship wide
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fire alarms is a direct result of the Morrow Castle disaster.
The incident also led to greater attention being placed on
fire drills and lifeboat procedures. Because of all the increased tourism,
the theater saw a boost in attendance, with twice as
many people turning out for shows like Italian boxer Primo
Carnera's sparring demonstrations. It's likely that the Paramount even showed
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one of the various news reels made of the Morrow Castle,
some footage of which was facilitated by the breaches booy
from the Convention Hall. Somehow, it was not the first
shipwreck to beach itself in that spot. In eighteen fifty four,
the New Era was sailing from Bremen to New York
when it ran aground and sank close to where the
Convention Hall now stands. Over two hundred people, mostly emigrants
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from Germany, died in the tragedy, which helped spur the
creation of what is now the U. S Coast Guard.
Because a ship was the final resting place of many people,
to this day we still don't know the exact number,
and because it's spent so long on the beach next
to the complex, many believe that the ghosts of the
Morrow Castle is Dead still haunt the area around the
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Convention Hall and Paramount Theater. One investigator claims to have
found an infant's footprint in the dust at the back
of the theater, and people report feeling cold spots throughout
the complex. A light bulb once crashed to the floor
for no apparent reason, and lights sometimes turn themselves on
and off. There are many accounts of shadow figures in
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the space, especially on the balconies. If you've seen the
Paramount Theater episode of Kindred Spirits, you know that Adam
and I spotted many of those shadow figures while we
were there investigating, which also coincidentally happened to be on
the eight fifth anniversary of the Morrow Castle disaster. According
to Patricia Hire's book Haunted Jersey Shore, there are testimonies
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of unexplained sounds such as voices, laughter, crying, and even
screaming in the space. She also wrote that audience members
claimed to have been admonished by a peculiar gray shadow
if they do not pay attention during a performance. Overnight.
Security guards have claimed to hear the conventions Hall pipe
organ playing. One insists that he once saw a shadow
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figure in old fashioned clothing playing the organ. There are
also claims that two young women sometimes identified as cabaret
show girls, were burned to death in a dressing room
in the theater. I personally investigated this claim and found
there had been a fire near the dressing room area,
evidence of which is very apparent, but it actually happened
in the nineteen eighties, and the fire itself was contained
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to one room, a storage room, not the dressing rooms,
apparently started by a peanut roasting machine that had been
stored there. The extensive damage to the adjoining hallway and
former dressing room area is actually smoke and water damage
incurred while fighting that fire, and when sprinkler systems were triggered,
no one perished in this fire. All of his information
(14:57):
was verified by the local fire department. They even came
out to look at the damage and explained to me
personally how it happened. It pays to be a stubborn
researcher with a place with as much fraught history as
the paramount, though it's hard to separate fact from myth,
but I can tell you from personal experience that the
place is very haunted. Up next, we have Kathy Kelly
(15:19):
joining us. She is an Asbury Park paranormal investigator and
historical researcher who was the one who brought the Paramount
to my attention. She's been investigating there for years and
has many stories to share, so that is coming up
after the break. So I am currently joined by Kathy Kelly,
(15:51):
who is a paranormal investigator, a historical researcher, and also
the proprietor of Paranormal Books and Curiosities and Asbury Park,
New Jersey, which I highly recommend a visit to. So
thanks for joining us, Kathy, Oh, thanks so much for
having me. Of course, Now you are the one who
brought the Paramount to Kindred Spirits, like you had investigated
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it many times and you thought it would make a
great case for us, which it did. It turned out
to be one of the most interesting we've done, and
lots of paranormal activity, which is not necessarily rare in theaters.
I find theaters to be exceptionally haunted. So can you
just kind of tell me, like how you started to
investigate at the Paramount and how you found out about
the haunts going on there. Sure, Well, the Paramount, obviously,
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you know this is one of these grand old theaters,
and it's from the very early part of the twentieth century,
and you know it's one of those places that as
soon as you walk in, kind of the weight of
history settles around you and you just you just feel something.
And in two thousand and seven, I had been to
the theater several times, but I was actually invited to
come and investigate with a couple of local investigators, kind
(16:58):
of casual local investigators, and they had been working with
some of the guys that actually took care of the place.
Um And in two thousand and seven, the Paramount was
in a much more advanced state of disrepair than it
is right now. So it had been it had never
been completely vacant, but it had been quiet for a
very very long time. And when we went in, I'm
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kind of a skeptical investigator, you know, And when we
went in, I was tagging along in this investigation, and
I had one of the most i would say profound
experiences that I've ever had as an investigator. And it
was probably the primary reason why I ended up opening
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Paranormal Books and Curiosities in Asbury Park was because of
that building. That's so interesting. So now we have to
know what was the experience. So we were up in
the back hallway, which I'm sure you remember from your investigation.
There's a point where you have kind of the modern
section of the building, and then you have this section
that looks like it was in a fire and it's
(18:00):
burnt out, and there's not a whole lot in there
that's modern, right, it's kind of a dark area. And
there's this long hallway and this is where people had
reported a lot of activity. And I was there, and
I was right at this doorway where people had claimed
to see a man standing and then he was kind
of protective and kind of aggressive, you know, or aggressively
defensive of that particular area. And I was standing there
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and I wasn't really feeling anything, but there was a
light bulb on this little shelf that was right behind
the doorway, and the doorway was open, and we were
standing there, and the investigators that I was with were well,
they were trying to do e v P. But they
were provoking, not really negatively, but a little bit aggressively,
you know, kind of like prove you're here and you
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know nobody believes you're here, that kind of a thing.
And um, I would say the shelf was about six
ft behind us, and there were probably about eight people,
and it was four and four so so we had
created this little alleyway kind of and the lead investigator
was getting more and more aggressive. You could feel the
kind of the energy in the space just getting tighter
and tighter and tighter, almost like you're like something's going
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to happen. And all of a sudden, that light bulb
came off of the shelf and just went about fifteen
feet between us and ended up smashing on the wall
on the other side of the eight of us. And
for the life of me, I cannot figure out how
that could happen in a non paranormal way. I mean,
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I mean, I just I just can't. And I just
remember that moment being like, I don't know what caused it,
you know, I don't know if it was us, it
was our energy of the energy of the space, But
I just remember at that moment saying, oh my god,
there's something to this, you know, like as investigators, you're
always looking for that ah ha moment. And I think
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that was one of the biggest aha moments for me.
And there was one of the guys that worked in
the building was there, Jason, you know Jason, he was there,
and he looked at me and he smirked We had
many conversations where I was like, it's probably that, but
it could be this, and I was always very dismissive
of it, and he just looked at me like, see
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and I and honestly I did. I saw that moment.
It wasn't frightening, you know. I didn't feel like it
was aggressive or like, but it was startling and it
was dramatic. And I've investigated there many, many times and
we've always gotten some interesting things, but never anything quite
as dramatic as that. But that was enough for me
to say, I don't necessarily know what's going on in
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this building, but something is. You know. It's funny because
there's two types of people. There are the people who
when that would happen, they would book it on out
of there and never return. And then there are the
people that are like, huh, my interest is piqud and
I was curious. That was very strange. Had that light
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bulb just flew fifteen feet and smashed against the wall.
I feel like there's something to this. Yeah, now, I
love that, And I do find that many investigators have
that kind of aha moment, and then I also feel
like the location where they have them kind of becomes
near and dear to them, you know. And I think
that's really pertinent when you talk about the Paramount, because
we've had many conversations about it over the years and
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just all of the wild things that happened there, and
kind of like I touched on earlier, there's something about theaters,
and obviously the history of the Paramount is wild, but
there is even without that history. There are many theaters
that seem to have their ghosts and and not necessarily
connected to a death or a tragedy. Just I mean,
I personally believe it has a lot to do with
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the energy of theaters and because there's not really much
that happens in a theater that isn't high energy. That's
the point of every performance is to reach the person
in the very back of the room. That's my thought anyway,
on why they're haunted, I totally agree. I also think
that when people are singing and people are laughing, and
people are doing these things, it's called raising your spirits
for a reason, right, right, So it's like elevating. And
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maybe there's a physiological component to this, and I'm sure
there is, with the release of endorphins and all of that,
but I do think that there's a lightning of your
spirit when you're in the theater and when people are
performing and they're giving their all, but the audience is
so receptive to that. And I always think of theaters
as being like a battery where you have these high emotional,
high energy moments and it just kind of affords whatever
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might be around a lot of energy to attach itself
too and to use, you know. And there's a reason
why they call it a ghost light. Um, there's lots
of fun stories like that. But I agree. I've always
found theaters to be for some reason. I think we're
touching on probably why to be really active. And that's
really cool. Now, do you if somebody is going to
investigate the Paramount or visiting the Paramount, what would you
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say is the most prevalent type of activity they could
encounter there? So to me, I think there's like the
big things that people have heard about. Everybody always wants
to go to that hallway because they've heard this story,
But that's not where I've always felt the most experiences
or where I think there's the most activity. I would
say a real sense of presence, like to be very
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aware that you're not necessarily going to see something. You're
not necessarily going to hear something, although you could in
this particular place, you definitely could, but to be very
aware of a sense of someone around you. I do
think that if you're on that stage and you're looking
out into the and you've been on that stage, it's
it's a big old vaudevillian stage, like it is a
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really cool building. You can see movement. You really could
see movement. And I know that everybody that works there
talks about hearing things, but for me, it was always
just the sense that there's someone around you. And I
know for a lot of people that doesn't seem like enough,
but for when you've been investigating long enough, you don't
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really care that much about what you capture on your equipment.
It's really more about what you experience in this space.
And to me, there's just always in differ in places
you can really feel presences, right. I definitely got that
vibe there, especially up on the stage. I remember someone
telling us a wild experience there about how they literally
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saw like a shadow envelop like half the stage and
then go up and over them, and that was something
that I hadn't really heard before. And there seems to
be a lot of shadow activity there that doesn't necessarily
always look human in shape, Like we saw something in
the seats at one point. I actually captured something on
video up in the seats, like it looked like almost
(24:33):
the size of a child, but there wasn't really like
a humanoid shape to it. Have you seen these shadow figures? Yeah,
In fact, I remember I've seen it a couple of times.
And I had done an investigation one time with someone
who was one of the larger fleer thermal cams, and
we were up on the stage and we were just
kind of doing a quick pass through of all of
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the seats, right, a quick kind of you know, let's
just get a shot of everything. And there was one
seat about halfway up that had dropped down and you
could see a warm you know, that the seat was
warmer than all of the others, as as if someone
had just gotten up and left. That is something where
you have to look at it and you say, let's
see if there's like some kind of heating element underneath,
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let's say, but there wasn't. It just it really was
one of those things where it's just that is just
very strange, and it shouldn't have happened. But while we
were standing there, I remember looking out at the entire
space and it gets very dark in there, but there's
always a little bit of light, right because they have
those beautiful stained glass windows and stuff like that, there's
always a little bit of ambient light that comes through
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and your eyes kind of acclimate to it. And I
remember seeing what looked like a dark blob and it
was up in the balcony and it looked like it
ran up the stairs and out a door. But the
only door up there actually goes to the projection booth,
and it's not an easy thing. It's locked, and you
(25:59):
go to the projec action booth and you have to
go up a catwalk and it's it's not a simple thing.
But we all ran up to follow it because we
all saw it. And when we got up there, we
realized that the door was locked and there was no
place for this, whatever this was, to have gone um,
And that's something that I physically saw myself. But I
will tell you you know, I've been in Asby Park
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now for fifteen years, and the Paramount has hosted some
pretty big bands, and I would say for like the
first ten years I was in asmy park, there wasn't
a whole lot to do, so they would all eventually
get down to paranormal, you know, they're wandering through town.
And I can tell you that I've gotten probably I
don't know, two or three dozen reports from people who
(26:43):
performed there and who were in the green room and
who spend time they're doing rehearsals, who have come in
and just said, this place is haunted, right, because this
is what happened to me. And they invariably talk about
shadow figures in the audience that they see when they're rehearsing.
It's so funny because I think about that sometimes, about
how a lot of us have touched on the idea
that maybe spirits sometimes just kind of go about their
(27:05):
business in the world and we might not even know
that they are not a live person, you know, And
it makes me wonder if sometimes that anonymous nature applies
in a theater, especially where they can sit in kind
of the seats amongst the living and just enjoy a show.
And then sometimes they might just also want to watch
(27:27):
a sound checker two, you know, and because they're not limited,
they can come and go and they could be attracted
to the energy that's being provided by the stage. One
of the weird things that happens in The Paramount that
I've gotten all the time from people is there seems
to be something that likes to mess with one of
the bathrooms. And the paramounts an old, old theater and
(27:49):
it hasn't been completely renovated yet. So when you go
into the ladies room on the first floor, it's a
one bathroom bathroom, so there's always a huge line of women,
you know, waiting to use it. And the lock is
literally one of those you just turn it and it
locks right. And people report being in the bathroom and
having the lock jiggle and like as if someone is
(28:09):
trying to get in, and then they open up the
door and they walk out and they see this line
of women and they're kind of like, hey, I was
in there, and then women look at them like, yeah,
we know. So no one had touched the lock, but
from the inside there was this kind of interaction to
kind of spook them. And I do think it's funny
because you get this a lot in theaters too, and
maybe it's water related, I don't really know, but you
(28:32):
do get that kind of where people on the outside
are not having that experience, but people on the inside are.
And it's just one of those funny things that when
you hear someone tell a story one time, you think, Okay,
that's an interesting story. But when you hear the same
story told by dozens of people over many years, and
these people don't know each other, then you have to
(28:53):
start saying, well, that's actually a real phenomena. And I
don't know the cause of it, but I definitely know
what's happening. And in the paramount, there's a lot of
these little unique experiences that don't seem to be related
to each other. There's the thing in the upstairs dressing room,
there's the stuff that you see on the stage. There's
the thing that's that happens in the projection, there's the
(29:13):
thing that happens in the bathroom. And it all seems
to be happening in the theater, but not related to
each other at all. And that's so interesting to me,
Like I always wonder that, like, why is it that
in the afterlife a spirit chooses to jiggle a bathroom
door lock up to scare poor ladies in the restroom,
which which is when we feel like the most vulnerable
(29:34):
you know, especially if you're wearing you know, like a
jumpsuit and you have to take the whole thing off.
You know, there's a line of women waiting, so you're
you know, that is hysterical. But I mean, I guess
maybe if and when I become a ghost, maybe I'll
be a little prankster like that. Now that means said,
have you had any e vps that have come out
(29:55):
of the Paramount and if so, what have they been saying.
You know, we've gotten a few e v p use
over the course of the years. Some of them have
been very strange and that they don't seem to be
related to the Paramount at all, but they seem to
be related more to kind of like casual life in
Asbury Park. We got one where we got someone who
said that their name was Josh, you know, in response
(30:16):
to what's your name? My name is Josh. It actually
didn't say my name is Josh, It said Josh. And
then you know, what are you doing here? And I'm
fishing and the Paramount is right on the beach and
it's actually on where a jetty used to be. We
also got we got music one time which was nobody
heard and it was just kind of recorded. And then
(30:37):
we did get something in the projection booth once it
was just a name and the name was art, but
again nothing that was directly related to the theater itself,
because the theater it's not anyone's home, but it might
be something that they were like transitioning through. I mean
that makes sense because the activity, it's not always super
(31:00):
interactive there. It does seem very energy based, and I
guess residual and nature not to undermine what it is,
because there is a lot of activity there, but it
doesn't always seem like it's necessarily aware of you. And
I think that sometimes we investigate places so many times,
and I'm not saying this about the paramount per se,
but sometimes we investigate places so many times that I
(31:22):
do feel like spirits kind of detect that energy of
like people calling out and reaching out, and so they
might come in even though they're not necessarily affiliated with
that location. And I think the same thing could be
said for theaters, like that energy of a live audience
of people milling about outside, and I think that might
(31:43):
attract some sort of spiritual activity on its own. And
given where this place is, I mean, it's not in
the middle of a city. Really it's right on the ocean,
and there is this kind of seasonal component to it too.
I have investigated the Paramount when Asbury Park was an
absolute ghost town, and I've investigated the Paramount, you know,
(32:05):
when it's blown up and been like one of the
larger resort towns on the East Coast, and it's different.
It's different when there's more energy in the area. I'm
a believer that location matters, and I'm a believer that
the ocean is a living thing with a lot of energy,
and I do think that there's different conductive properties to
water and things like that, and I agree, I don't
(32:28):
necessarily think that everything that people ascribe what happens in
the Paramount to certain historical events, and maybe they're right.
I don't know. I don't know that we have enough
evidence to actually say that. But it's one of those
places where you stand there, you feel the weight of
its history, and if you stand there long enough, you're
going to see something. I will say, I think most
(32:50):
of what happens in the Paramount is residual, but we
definitely have seen reactive things as well. I can't think
of a theater of that size that is low hated,
so close to an ocean, you can literally there's an
area on the other side of the Paramount, which is
Convention Hall, but they're attached and they're essentially the same
building that they actually called the Overlook because it looks
(33:13):
a little bit like something from the Shining, but also
because it literally hangs over the ocean. In Hurricane Sandy,
there was ocean water in the paramount, that's how close
the ocean is to it. And it is a really
unique space given its proximity to the ocean and kind
of the shifting sands that it's on, and interesting historical
things have definitely happened there. Certainly tragedies have happened in
(33:36):
the area, and you kind of wonder if maybe people
knowing the stories, believing the stories don't in some way
impact kind of the experiences that people have there. Oh,
I definitely think that happens. I find Asbury Park so
interesting because the first time I went there, we were
filming an episode of Ghost Hunters at a local I
(33:56):
think it's like a museum or something. And I can't
remember exactly how many years go that was, but probably
close to fifteen years ago, and it was a different
town than when we recently went back. It has completely
come back like it's such a dynamic and beautiful place,
and I mean, people really rallied to make that happen.
It's a really wonderful place to visit. The architecture and
(34:20):
kind of the Art deco nature of all the buildings
in town is just beautiful, and there's not a lot
of places that can say that. And so I do
think it's so interesting that the theater's energy has kind
of changed with the vibe of the town. I love
to hear that so and you know, and I think
that you play a big part in that too. You
are such a lover of the town and I think
you should be commended on some of the work you've
(34:40):
done there very much. So, Okay, how can people find
Kathy Kelly? Obviously they should go to your store, but
then you also do some events and things. And Adam
and I love you, We love the research you do,
we love how through you are, We love you know,
having you be involved in the case on Kindred when
we did the paramount. So shout yourself out and thank you,
thanks so much for or even thinking of me. But
(35:01):
I'm on Instagram as at the Paranormal Museum. We're on
Facebook as Paranormal New Jersey. Our website is Paranormal Books
and j dot com and we are open to the
public and we do lots of different events and we've
been around for fifteen years, so we're kind of a
mainstay in Asbury Park. Certainly, if you've ever visit Asbrey
Park and you ask anybody about paranormal, they'll know where
(35:23):
we are. Yeah, I mean, I have to say, I
think yours was the first Crampus Parade I ever attended,
or Crampus um. That was really one of the reading
on the Naughty List, the reading of the Naughty List,
and it was so so locals can actually I think
they could like actually put in their naughty things they
did or something, and then it was amazing. That was
(35:45):
so much fun. So well, I really enjoyed that. I
love talking to you as always. Thank you so much
for joining and filling us in on the activity at
the Paramount Theater. Thank you so much for having me,
and he was great talking to I've investigated many a
theater that didn't seem to have much tragedy attached to them,
(36:08):
but remained ridiculously Haunted. As Kathy and I discussed, I
really do theorize it has to do with the energy
of a performance and of an audience, and the emotion
and passion of artists and staff. But not many can
claim a tragedy like the Paramount, and well, it's hard
to imagine that not having to do with the haunting
of the Paramount. I'm not sure it does. Regardless of
(36:30):
my thoughts, the theater remains one very spiritual place. Not
to mention, it's a gorgeous example of the grand theaters
of yesterday. I highly recommend a visit. Also, you didn't
hear it from me, but there's some pretty incredible ice
cream available right outside of it on the boardwalk. I'm
Amy Brunei and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is
(37:02):
a production of iHeart Radio and Grimm and Mild from
Aaron Mankey. Haunted Road is hosted and written by me
Amy Bruney additional research by Taylor Haggerdorn. The show is
edited and produced by rema El Kali and supervising producer
Josh Thing and executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and
Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit
(37:25):
the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion is advised, Hey, friends,
particularly those near California and Arizona. I am heading your
way very soon, and I don't make it out that
way very often. My life with the Afterlife Speaking Tour
(00:21):
is making stops at the Crest Theater in Sacramento on
September four, the Rialto Theater in Tucson, Arizona on September
the Talking Stick Resort in Scottsdale, Arizona on September six,
and the Balboa Theater in San Diego on September. So
tickets can be found at the venues websites, and I
hope to see you there. While filming for a show
(00:54):
called Ghost Hunters that if you didn't know, I spent
seven seasons on, I had what stands to this day
as being the strangest experience I've ever had in a theater.
Adam Burry and I had drawn the short straw when
it came to investigating a very particular claim at a
theater we were filming at. You see, the claim was
that every night at three am, a figure could be
(01:15):
seen high up in the balcony. You had to be
on the stage to see it, but if you saw it,
this figure would wave at you. B s. We all laughed,
but we had to check this out because the facility
was adamant. So as the rest of the team packed
up and left for the night, Adam and I stayed
behind to wait for three am. Again the short straw.
We along with a lone camera operator and producer, perched
(01:38):
on the stage and waited. As the clock ticked three,
we peered up in the darkness. We called out, hello, nothing.
We scanned the seats, scanned the railings, and then we
saw it, not in the balcony, but standing in one
of the doorways at the back of the balcony where
people would enter to take their seats, a white figure
(02:00):
drifting in and out of focus. Hello. We called who
was up there? But we knew no one was there.
We personally watched everyone leave. Plus this didn't look like
a solid person. So we looked at each other and
looked back up in the balcony and we waved, and
I kid you not, that odd white figure lifted what
(02:22):
I assumed to be its arm and started waving back.
And then it just stood there and waved and waved
and did not stop waving, this strange slow wave that
to this day sends chills down my spine. We tried
desperately to capture what we were seeing on camera, but
with how far away it was, it was nearly impossible.
(02:45):
Our camera operator, witnessing this as well, also tried. At
some point we ran up to the balcony to the
very spot where this figure was, but as you can imagine,
no one was there, so you'll just have to take
my word for it. You'll also have to take my word.
Theaters can be crazy haunted, so let's visit one with
some wild history attached to it and of course lots
(03:06):
of ghosts. We're headed to the Paramount Theater in Asbury Park,
New Jersey. I'm Amy Brunei, and this is haunted road.
(03:33):
Early in the morning on September eight, Nur, while the
ship was churning through an intense storm on its way
to New York, flames shot through the walls of the S. S.
Morrow Castle. The blaze destroyed the electrical work and disabled
the communications system, leaving the luxury liner dead in the
water unable to call for help. By the time the
blaze had calmed. Approximately one seven people had perished, many
(03:56):
while asleep in their beds. But from the shore in
Asbury Park, New Jersey, people knew what was happening aboard
the S. S. Morrow Castle. They stood on the beaches
watching the ship burn, powerless to help the people aboard
until their bodies washed up on shore. In the months
that followed, tourists flooded the convention hall and the attached
Paramount Theater, paying twenty five cents apiece to see the
(04:19):
charred remains of the ship, which washed ashore next to
the buildings. Some looted the cabins of the wealthy who
had been aboard. Others speculated about the cause of the
disastrous fire, which was later determined to be arson, saying
it was an inside job by the government or enemies
of the United States. The tragedy left its mark on
the community, and some say filled the theater with the
(04:41):
souls of those who perished and who cannot find rest.
But it wasn't the first time that stretch of coastline
had seen a tragedy on such a grand scale. A
century earlier, another ship burned, killing more than two hundred
people aboard, just off the land where the Paramount Theater
sits today. Is it any wonder the building is full
of ghosts. Founded in eighteen seventy one on the northern
(05:07):
shores of New Jersey, Asbury Park quickly developed into a
resort town. People sunned themselves on the town's beaches, strolled
the boardwalk, and by night danced in its dance halls,
as Ray Gallagher wrote in his History of Asbury Park,
by the early twentieth century, Asbury Park cemented itself as
New Jersey's premier tourist destination. The city decided it needed
(05:28):
a large gathering place for visitors, which would attract even
bigger crowds and drive the growing tourism industry. That place
would be the Beachfront complex housing the Asbury Park Convention
Center and the attached Paramount Theater, which were first planned
in nineteen sixteen, but didn't secure funding until a decade later.
According to the U S Department of the Interior, the
plan to build a convention center in Asbury Park was
(05:51):
steeped in controversy from the start. On the one hand,
there were those who believed that the building was necessary
for Asbury Park to meet the demands of tourists. On
the other hand, there was an equally vociferous group who
maintained that the increased public financial burden would be suicidal.
The complex was designed to accommodate a lot of people,
thirty four hundred in the convention Center and just across
(06:13):
the arcade connecting the buildings, sixteen hundred in the theater.
They were designed by the same architects who envisioned Manhattan's
Grand Central Station in the eclectic style popular in the day,
with seashells and nautical motifs decorating the facades of the buildings.
Inside the Convention Center is a massive seven hundred pipe
organ built into the walls themselves, so the instrument is
(06:34):
actually part of the architecture. The Department of the Interior
describes the theater's decor is consisting of offset concentric light
panels of amber cathedral glass, interspersed with reinforced plaster, ornamentation
of floral character and female nudes, and perforated ornamentation for ventilation.
When it first opened its doors on New Year's Day
(06:56):
nineteen thirty, the first movie the theater showed was Howard
He Uses Wings. Not long after, people filled those seats
to watch music legends like Benny Goodman and Duke Ellington perform.
Much later, Asbury Park's biggest claim to fame would be
launching Bruce Springsteen's career. He was born just a few
miles away in Long Branch. While Asbury Park endured a
fire in nineteen seventeen that destroyed four blocks of the city,
(07:19):
the burning of the USS Morrow Castle was a tragedy
on an enormous scale. It brought national attention to the
theater and convention Center when news of the fire broke
as it was happening, though, the ship's burning was more
of a maccabre spectacle, with crowds gathering to watch the
conflagration as it slowly inched its way to shore, nearly
hitting the convention Center before making a turn and breaching
(07:42):
by the theater instead. Maybe it was because entertainment was
hard to come by in the middle of the Great
Depression when the Moroal Castle burned. Maybe it's because many
of the people living in the small seaside city had
never before seen a luxury liner, which broke speed records
when it launched and made weekly voyages for wealthy passengers
between New York and Havanna. But the event was absolutely
(08:03):
a spectacle that brought people in droves. Spectators created what
Gordon Thomas and Max Morgan Wits called an almost carnival
atmosphere where vendors of hot dogs, soft drinks and coffee
did risk business. It took a whole day for the
Morol Castle to drift ashore. The ship continued to smolder
for days, with explosions hampering efforts to search for potential
(08:25):
survivors on board. According to author Eric Larson, who wrote
about the Moral Castle disaster, the remains became a major
tourist attraction, with ordinary people driving to the city from
all over the Tri state area to pose for macabb
photos in front of the ship. In fact, the Asbury
Park City Council proposed keeping the ship there as a
permanent tourist attraction, only to reverse course when the idea
(08:49):
was condemned as gruesome. Official records say that five hundred
fifty people were on board the ship when it burned,
but some numbers, taking into account Cuban refuge children on
their way to America, placed the count as high as
six d twenty people. Nearly one hundred forty of them died,
many charred beyond identification. One survivor, Cuban national Renee Mendez Capote,
(09:13):
told the press, I am sure most of the passengers
burned to death while they slept. There was no warning.
I am alive only by luck, accident, or perhaps through
some higher power that watched over me. A contemporary newsreel
referred to it as a terrible tragedy of the sea,
equalled only by those of the Titanic and Lusitania footage
when the reel shows the ship still at sea, with
(09:35):
smoke streaming from the vessel and passengers visible in the water,
as well as locals pulling victims out of the surf
on the Asbury Park beach. Some claim that the Paramount
was used as a makeshift morgue for victims of the fire,
but that claim is hard to substantiate. The majority of
unclaimed bodies were moved to a temporary morgue set up
at the National Guards station Camp more down the coast
(09:57):
in Seagirt. The legend may come from a wishing boat
called the Paramount, which was involved in picking up survivors
and bodies during the wreck. Whether or not the theater
was used as a morgue, it was definitely involved in
the tragedy. Rescuers made early attempts to reach the ships,
burned out wreckage from the building. According to a nineteen
thirty four news article in The Evening Courier, members of
(10:19):
the Coastguards stood on the promenade of the Convention Hall
and using a lile gun, fired a line aboard and
a breeches buoy was rigged up. At least one body
was brought back across from the Morrow Castle via this line,
although what happened to it after that is unclear. As
the article described, one body was taken off the Morrow Castle,
two had been found on the ship, and there was
(10:40):
no telling how many more were burned to death in
their cabins. When the searing flames swept through the liner,
the body was hoisted ashore by the breeches buoy. It
was burned beyond recognition, but it was believed that of
a man. The inspection party found another body, but could
not get to it because of the heat. Others, including journalists,
paid five dollars for use of this breach is booy
(11:02):
to access the ship, with an extra charge to rent
a gas mask or a flashlight. At least one man
used this opportunity to loot the ship of deceased passengers
personal items, including diamonds belonging to a Miss Katherine Cochrane,
whose body still lay in her suite alongside her jewels.
The Convention Center turned the Morrow Castle into a money
(11:23):
making endeavor. According to a contemporary account from The Evening Courier,
the center's management through the place open to the public
at twenty five cents admission. From the balconies of the hall,
a particularly good view could be obtained. A sign in
front of the hall read twenty five cents to see
the Ss morrow Castle. Benefit of the families who died.
(11:44):
It's estimated that in the six months the boat was
on the beach, over one hundred thousand people came to
see it. There was, though, some good news that came
from the tragedy. According to the Asbury Park Historical Society,
the devastating fire aboard the Morrow Castle was a cat
A list for improved shipboard fire safety. Today, the use
of fire retarded materials, automatic fire doors, and ship wide
(12:07):
fire alarms is a direct result of the Morrow Castle disaster.
The incident also led to greater attention being placed on
fire drills and lifeboat procedures. Because of all the increased tourism,
the theater saw a boost in attendance, with twice as
many people turning out for shows like Italian boxer Primo
Carnera's sparring demonstrations. It's likely that the Paramount even showed
(12:29):
one of the various news reels made of the Morrow Castle,
some footage of which was facilitated by the breaches booy
from the Convention Hall. Somehow, it was not the first
shipwreck to beach itself in that spot. In eighteen fifty four,
the New Era was sailing from Bremen to New York
when it ran aground and sank close to where the
Convention Hall now stands. Over two hundred people, mostly emigrants
(12:53):
from Germany, died in the tragedy, which helped spur the
creation of what is now the U. S Coast Guard.
Because a ship was the final resting place of many people,
to this day we still don't know the exact number,
and because it's spent so long on the beach next
to the complex, many believe that the ghosts of the
Morrow Castle is Dead still haunt the area around the
(13:14):
Convention Hall and Paramount Theater. One investigator claims to have
found an infant's footprint in the dust at the back
of the theater, and people report feeling cold spots throughout
the complex. A light bulb once crashed to the floor
for no apparent reason, and lights sometimes turn themselves on
and off. There are many accounts of shadow figures in
(13:34):
the space, especially on the balconies. If you've seen the
Paramount Theater episode of Kindred Spirits, you know that Adam
and I spotted many of those shadow figures while we
were there investigating, which also coincidentally happened to be on
the eight fifth anniversary of the Morrow Castle disaster. According
to Patricia Hire's book Haunted Jersey Shore, there are testimonies
(13:54):
of unexplained sounds such as voices, laughter, crying, and even
screaming in the space. She also wrote that audience members
claimed to have been admonished by a peculiar gray shadow
if they do not pay attention during a performance. Overnight.
Security guards have claimed to hear the conventions Hall pipe
organ playing. One insists that he once saw a shadow
(14:15):
figure in old fashioned clothing playing the organ. There are
also claims that two young women sometimes identified as cabaret
show girls, were burned to death in a dressing room
in the theater. I personally investigated this claim and found
there had been a fire near the dressing room area,
evidence of which is very apparent, but it actually happened
in the nineteen eighties, and the fire itself was contained
(14:37):
to one room, a storage room, not the dressing rooms,
apparently started by a peanut roasting machine that had been
stored there. The extensive damage to the adjoining hallway and
former dressing room area is actually smoke and water damage
incurred while fighting that fire, and when sprinkler systems were triggered,
no one perished in this fire. All of his information
(14:57):
was verified by the local fire department. They even came
out to look at the damage and explained to me
personally how it happened. It pays to be a stubborn
researcher with a place with as much fraught history as
the paramount, though it's hard to separate fact from myth,
but I can tell you from personal experience that the
place is very haunted. Up next, we have Kathy Kelly
(15:19):
joining us. She is an Asbury Park paranormal investigator and
historical researcher who was the one who brought the Paramount
to my attention. She's been investigating there for years and
has many stories to share, so that is coming up
after the break. So I am currently joined by Kathy Kelly,
(15:51):
who is a paranormal investigator, a historical researcher, and also
the proprietor of Paranormal Books and Curiosities and Asbury Park,
New Jersey, which I highly recommend a visit to. So
thanks for joining us, Kathy, Oh, thanks so much for
having me. Of course, Now you are the one who
brought the Paramount to Kindred Spirits, like you had investigated
(16:12):
it many times and you thought it would make a
great case for us, which it did. It turned out
to be one of the most interesting we've done, and
lots of paranormal activity, which is not necessarily rare in theaters.
I find theaters to be exceptionally haunted. So can you
just kind of tell me, like how you started to
investigate at the Paramount and how you found out about
the haunts going on there. Sure, Well, the Paramount, obviously,
(16:35):
you know this is one of these grand old theaters,
and it's from the very early part of the twentieth century,
and you know it's one of those places that as
soon as you walk in, kind of the weight of
history settles around you and you just you just feel something.
And in two thousand and seven, I had been to
the theater several times, but I was actually invited to
come and investigate with a couple of local investigators, kind
(16:58):
of casual local investigators, and they had been working with
some of the guys that actually took care of the place.
Um And in two thousand and seven, the Paramount was
in a much more advanced state of disrepair than it
is right now. So it had been it had never
been completely vacant, but it had been quiet for a
very very long time. And when we went in, I'm
(17:19):
kind of a skeptical investigator, you know, And when we
went in, I was tagging along in this investigation, and
I had one of the most i would say profound
experiences that I've ever had as an investigator. And it
was probably the primary reason why I ended up opening
(17:40):
Paranormal Books and Curiosities in Asbury Park was because of
that building. That's so interesting. So now we have to
know what was the experience. So we were up in
the back hallway, which I'm sure you remember from your investigation.
There's a point where you have kind of the modern
section of the building, and then you have this section
that looks like it was in a fire and it's
(18:00):
burnt out, and there's not a whole lot in there
that's modern, right, it's kind of a dark area. And
there's this long hallway and this is where people had
reported a lot of activity. And I was there, and
I was right at this doorway where people had claimed
to see a man standing and then he was kind
of protective and kind of aggressive, you know, or aggressively
defensive of that particular area. And I was standing there
(18:22):
and I wasn't really feeling anything, but there was a
light bulb on this little shelf that was right behind
the doorway, and the doorway was open, and we were
standing there, and the investigators that I was with were well,
they were trying to do e v P. But they
were provoking, not really negatively, but a little bit aggressively,
you know, kind of like prove you're here and you
(18:43):
know nobody believes you're here, that kind of a thing.
And um, I would say the shelf was about six
ft behind us, and there were probably about eight people,
and it was four and four so so we had
created this little alleyway kind of and the lead investigator
was getting more and more aggressive. You could feel the
kind of the energy in the space just getting tighter
and tighter and tighter, almost like you're like something's going
(19:05):
to happen. And all of a sudden, that light bulb
came off of the shelf and just went about fifteen
feet between us and ended up smashing on the wall
on the other side of the eight of us. And
for the life of me, I cannot figure out how
that could happen in a non paranormal way. I mean,
(19:26):
I mean, I just I just can't. And I just
remember that moment being like, I don't know what caused it,
you know, I don't know if it was us, it
was our energy of the energy of the space, But
I just remember at that moment saying, oh my god,
there's something to this, you know, like as investigators, you're
always looking for that ah ha moment. And I think
(19:48):
that was one of the biggest aha moments for me.
And there was one of the guys that worked in
the building was there, Jason, you know Jason, he was there,
and he looked at me and he smirked We had
many conversations where I was like, it's probably that, but
it could be this, and I was always very dismissive
of it, and he just looked at me like, see
(20:10):
and I and honestly I did. I saw that moment.
It wasn't frightening, you know. I didn't feel like it
was aggressive or like, but it was startling and it
was dramatic. And I've investigated there many, many times and
we've always gotten some interesting things, but never anything quite
as dramatic as that. But that was enough for me
to say, I don't necessarily know what's going on in
(20:33):
this building, but something is. You know. It's funny because
there's two types of people. There are the people who
when that would happen, they would book it on out
of there and never return. And then there are the
people that are like, huh, my interest is piqud and
I was curious. That was very strange. Had that light
(20:55):
bulb just flew fifteen feet and smashed against the wall.
I feel like there's something to this. Yeah, now, I
love that, And I do find that many investigators have
that kind of aha moment, and then I also feel
like the location where they have them kind of becomes
near and dear to them, you know. And I think
that's really pertinent when you talk about the Paramount, because
we've had many conversations about it over the years and
(21:16):
just all of the wild things that happened there, and
kind of like I touched on earlier, there's something about theaters,
and obviously the history of the Paramount is wild, but
there is even without that history. There are many theaters
that seem to have their ghosts and and not necessarily
connected to a death or a tragedy. Just I mean,
I personally believe it has a lot to do with
(21:37):
the energy of theaters and because there's not really much
that happens in a theater that isn't high energy. That's
the point of every performance is to reach the person
in the very back of the room. That's my thought anyway,
on why they're haunted, I totally agree. I also think
that when people are singing and people are laughing, and
people are doing these things, it's called raising your spirits
for a reason, right, right, So it's like elevating. And
(22:01):
maybe there's a physiological component to this, and I'm sure
there is, with the release of endorphins and all of that,
but I do think that there's a lightning of your
spirit when you're in the theater and when people are
performing and they're giving their all, but the audience is
so receptive to that. And I always think of theaters
as being like a battery where you have these high emotional,
high energy moments and it just kind of affords whatever
(22:25):
might be around a lot of energy to attach itself
too and to use, you know. And there's a reason
why they call it a ghost light. Um, there's lots
of fun stories like that. But I agree. I've always
found theaters to be for some reason. I think we're
touching on probably why to be really active. And that's
really cool. Now, do you if somebody is going to
investigate the Paramount or visiting the Paramount, what would you
(22:47):
say is the most prevalent type of activity they could
encounter there? So to me, I think there's like the
big things that people have heard about. Everybody always wants
to go to that hallway because they've heard this story,
But that's not where I've always felt the most experiences
or where I think there's the most activity. I would
say a real sense of presence, like to be very
(23:07):
aware that you're not necessarily going to see something. You're
not necessarily going to hear something, although you could in
this particular place, you definitely could, but to be very
aware of a sense of someone around you. I do
think that if you're on that stage and you're looking
out into the and you've been on that stage, it's
it's a big old vaudevillian stage, like it is a
(23:28):
really cool building. You can see movement. You really could
see movement. And I know that everybody that works there
talks about hearing things, but for me, it was always
just the sense that there's someone around you. And I
know for a lot of people that doesn't seem like enough,
but for when you've been investigating long enough, you don't
(23:49):
really care that much about what you capture on your equipment.
It's really more about what you experience in this space.
And to me, there's just always in differ in places
you can really feel presences, right. I definitely got that
vibe there, especially up on the stage. I remember someone
telling us a wild experience there about how they literally
(24:11):
saw like a shadow envelop like half the stage and
then go up and over them, and that was something
that I hadn't really heard before. And there seems to
be a lot of shadow activity there that doesn't necessarily
always look human in shape, Like we saw something in
the seats at one point. I actually captured something on
video up in the seats, like it looked like almost
(24:33):
the size of a child, but there wasn't really like
a humanoid shape to it. Have you seen these shadow figures? Yeah,
In fact, I remember I've seen it a couple of times.
And I had done an investigation one time with someone
who was one of the larger fleer thermal cams, and
we were up on the stage and we were just
kind of doing a quick pass through of all of
(24:55):
the seats, right, a quick kind of you know, let's
just get a shot of everything. And there was one
seat about halfway up that had dropped down and you
could see a warm you know, that the seat was
warmer than all of the others, as as if someone
had just gotten up and left. That is something where
you have to look at it and you say, let's
see if there's like some kind of heating element underneath,
(25:17):
let's say, but there wasn't. It just it really was
one of those things where it's just that is just
very strange, and it shouldn't have happened. But while we
were standing there, I remember looking out at the entire
space and it gets very dark in there, but there's
always a little bit of light, right because they have
those beautiful stained glass windows and stuff like that, there's
always a little bit of ambient light that comes through
(25:38):
and your eyes kind of acclimate to it. And I
remember seeing what looked like a dark blob and it
was up in the balcony and it looked like it
ran up the stairs and out a door. But the
only door up there actually goes to the projection booth,
and it's not an easy thing. It's locked, and you
(25:59):
go to the projec action booth and you have to
go up a catwalk and it's it's not a simple thing.
But we all ran up to follow it because we
all saw it. And when we got up there, we
realized that the door was locked and there was no
place for this, whatever this was, to have gone um,
And that's something that I physically saw myself. But I
will tell you you know, I've been in Asby Park
(26:21):
now for fifteen years, and the Paramount has hosted some
pretty big bands, and I would say for like the
first ten years I was in asmy park, there wasn't
a whole lot to do, so they would all eventually
get down to paranormal, you know, they're wandering through town.
And I can tell you that I've gotten probably I
don't know, two or three dozen reports from people who
(26:43):
performed there and who were in the green room and
who spend time they're doing rehearsals, who have come in
and just said, this place is haunted, right, because this
is what happened to me. And they invariably talk about
shadow figures in the audience that they see when they're rehearsing.
It's so funny because I think about that sometimes, about
how a lot of us have touched on the idea
that maybe spirits sometimes just kind of go about their
(27:05):
business in the world and we might not even know
that they are not a live person, you know, And
it makes me wonder if sometimes that anonymous nature applies
in a theater, especially where they can sit in kind
of the seats amongst the living and just enjoy a show.
And then sometimes they might just also want to watch
(27:27):
a sound checker two, you know, and because they're not limited,
they can come and go and they could be attracted
to the energy that's being provided by the stage. One
of the weird things that happens in The Paramount that
I've gotten all the time from people is there seems
to be something that likes to mess with one of
the bathrooms. And the paramounts an old, old theater and
(27:49):
it hasn't been completely renovated yet. So when you go
into the ladies room on the first floor, it's a
one bathroom bathroom, so there's always a huge line of women,
you know, waiting to use it. And the lock is
literally one of those you just turn it and it
locks right. And people report being in the bathroom and
having the lock jiggle and like as if someone is
(28:09):
trying to get in, and then they open up the
door and they walk out and they see this line
of women and they're kind of like, hey, I was
in there, and then women look at them like, yeah,
we know. So no one had touched the lock, but
from the inside there was this kind of interaction to
kind of spook them. And I do think it's funny
because you get this a lot in theaters too, and
maybe it's water related, I don't really know, but you
(28:32):
do get that kind of where people on the outside
are not having that experience, but people on the inside are.
And it's just one of those funny things that when
you hear someone tell a story one time, you think, Okay,
that's an interesting story. But when you hear the same
story told by dozens of people over many years, and
these people don't know each other, then you have to
(28:53):
start saying, well, that's actually a real phenomena. And I
don't know the cause of it, but I definitely know
what's happening. And in the paramount, there's a lot of
these little unique experiences that don't seem to be related
to each other. There's the thing in the upstairs dressing room,
there's the stuff that you see on the stage. There's
the thing that's that happens in the projection, there's the
(29:13):
thing that happens in the bathroom. And it all seems
to be happening in the theater, but not related to
each other at all. And that's so interesting to me,
Like I always wonder that, like, why is it that
in the afterlife a spirit chooses to jiggle a bathroom
door lock up to scare poor ladies in the restroom,
which which is when we feel like the most vulnerable
(29:34):
you know, especially if you're wearing you know, like a
jumpsuit and you have to take the whole thing off.
You know, there's a line of women waiting, so you're
you know, that is hysterical. But I mean, I guess
maybe if and when I become a ghost, maybe I'll
be a little prankster like that. Now that means said,
have you had any e vps that have come out
(29:55):
of the Paramount and if so, what have they been saying.
You know, we've gotten a few e v p use
over the course of the years. Some of them have
been very strange and that they don't seem to be
related to the Paramount at all, but they seem to
be related more to kind of like casual life in
Asbury Park. We got one where we got someone who
said that their name was Josh, you know, in response
(30:16):
to what's your name? My name is Josh. It actually
didn't say my name is Josh, It said Josh. And
then you know, what are you doing here? And I'm
fishing and the Paramount is right on the beach and
it's actually on where a jetty used to be. We
also got we got music one time which was nobody
heard and it was just kind of recorded. And then
(30:37):
we did get something in the projection booth once it
was just a name and the name was art, but
again nothing that was directly related to the theater itself,
because the theater it's not anyone's home, but it might
be something that they were like transitioning through. I mean
that makes sense because the activity, it's not always super
(31:00):
interactive there. It does seem very energy based, and I
guess residual and nature not to undermine what it is,
because there is a lot of activity there, but it
doesn't always seem like it's necessarily aware of you. And
I think that sometimes we investigate places so many times,
and I'm not saying this about the paramount per se,
but sometimes we investigate places so many times that I
(31:22):
do feel like spirits kind of detect that energy of
like people calling out and reaching out, and so they
might come in even though they're not necessarily affiliated with
that location. And I think the same thing could be
said for theaters, like that energy of a live audience
of people milling about outside, and I think that might
(31:43):
attract some sort of spiritual activity on its own. And
given where this place is, I mean, it's not in
the middle of a city. Really it's right on the ocean,
and there is this kind of seasonal component to it too.
I have investigated the Paramount when Asbury Park was an
absolute ghost town, and I've investigated the Paramount, you know,
(32:05):
when it's blown up and been like one of the
larger resort towns on the East Coast, and it's different.
It's different when there's more energy in the area. I'm
a believer that location matters, and I'm a believer that
the ocean is a living thing with a lot of energy,
and I do think that there's different conductive properties to
water and things like that, and I agree, I don't
(32:28):
necessarily think that everything that people ascribe what happens in
the Paramount to certain historical events, and maybe they're right.
I don't know. I don't know that we have enough
evidence to actually say that. But it's one of those
places where you stand there, you feel the weight of
its history, and if you stand there long enough, you're
going to see something. I will say, I think most
(32:50):
of what happens in the Paramount is residual, but we
definitely have seen reactive things as well. I can't think
of a theater of that size that is low hated,
so close to an ocean, you can literally there's an
area on the other side of the Paramount, which is
Convention Hall, but they're attached and they're essentially the same
building that they actually called the Overlook because it looks
(33:13):
a little bit like something from the Shining, but also
because it literally hangs over the ocean. In Hurricane Sandy,
there was ocean water in the paramount, that's how close
the ocean is to it. And it is a really
unique space given its proximity to the ocean and kind
of the shifting sands that it's on, and interesting historical
things have definitely happened there. Certainly tragedies have happened in
(33:36):
the area, and you kind of wonder if maybe people
knowing the stories, believing the stories don't in some way
impact kind of the experiences that people have there. Oh,
I definitely think that happens. I find Asbury Park so
interesting because the first time I went there, we were
filming an episode of Ghost Hunters at a local I
(33:56):
think it's like a museum or something. And I can't
remember exactly how many years go that was, but probably
close to fifteen years ago, and it was a different
town than when we recently went back. It has completely
come back like it's such a dynamic and beautiful place,
and I mean, people really rallied to make that happen.
It's a really wonderful place to visit. The architecture and
(34:20):
kind of the Art deco nature of all the buildings
in town is just beautiful, and there's not a lot
of places that can say that. And so I do
think it's so interesting that the theater's energy has kind
of changed with the vibe of the town. I love
to hear that so and you know, and I think
that you play a big part in that too. You
are such a lover of the town and I think
you should be commended on some of the work you've
(34:40):
done there very much. So, Okay, how can people find
Kathy Kelly? Obviously they should go to your store, but
then you also do some events and things. And Adam
and I love you, We love the research you do,
we love how through you are, We love you know,
having you be involved in the case on Kindred when
we did the paramount. So shout yourself out and thank you,
thanks so much for or even thinking of me. But
(35:01):
I'm on Instagram as at the Paranormal Museum. We're on
Facebook as Paranormal New Jersey. Our website is Paranormal Books
and j dot com and we are open to the
public and we do lots of different events and we've
been around for fifteen years, so we're kind of a
mainstay in Asbury Park. Certainly, if you've ever visit Asbrey
Park and you ask anybody about paranormal, they'll know where
(35:23):
we are. Yeah, I mean, I have to say, I
think yours was the first Crampus Parade I ever attended,
or Crampus um. That was really one of the reading
on the Naughty List, the reading of the Naughty List,
and it was so so locals can actually I think
they could like actually put in their naughty things they
did or something, and then it was amazing. That was
(35:45):
so much fun. So well, I really enjoyed that. I
love talking to you as always. Thank you so much
for joining and filling us in on the activity at
the Paramount Theater. Thank you so much for having me,
and he was great talking to I've investigated many a
theater that didn't seem to have much tragedy attached to them,
(36:08):
but remained ridiculously Haunted. As Kathy and I discussed, I
really do theorize it has to do with the energy
of a performance and of an audience, and the emotion
and passion of artists and staff. But not many can
claim a tragedy like the Paramount, and well, it's hard
to imagine that not having to do with the haunting
of the Paramount. I'm not sure it does. Regardless of
(36:30):
my thoughts, the theater remains one very spiritual place. Not
to mention, it's a gorgeous example of the grand theaters
of yesterday. I highly recommend a visit. Also, you didn't
hear it from me, but there's some pretty incredible ice
cream available right outside of it on the boardwalk. I'm
Amy Brunei and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is
(37:02):
a production of iHeart Radio and Grimm and Mild from
Aaron Mankey. Haunted Road is hosted and written by me
Amy Bruney additional research by Taylor Haggerdorn. The show is
edited and produced by rema El Kali and supervising producer
Josh Thing and executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and
Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit
(37:25):
the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
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