November 13, 2025 • 13 mins
Kevin talks with Dr. Anthony Vinci, author of The Fourth Intelligence Revolution: The Future of Espionage and the Battle to Save America. As AI spreads power to everyone, are we all about to become James Bond? Dr. Anthony Vinci thinks so. In his provocative new book, The Fourth Intelligence Revolution, Vinci argues that the future of espionage won’t belong to governments — it’ll belong to citizens. He says we must all become “citizen spies” to defend democracy in an age where data is the new battlefield and surveillance is everywhere. But how far should we go to protect freedom? Should citizens really be part of the intelligence fight? Or does that make us part of the problem? I’m Kevin Cirilli — and in this episode, I ask: if everyone’s a spy, who can we really trust?
Purchase Dr. Vinci's NEW Book HERE
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Nowadays, artificial intelligence is everywhere. The Chinese are spying on us,
the Russians are spying on us. North Korean's trying to
spy on us, the Ron probably trying to spy on us.
And the thought in the Zeitgeist by this guy named
Anthony vince Doctor Anthony Vincey is the author of The
Fourth Intelligence Revolution, The Future of Espionage and the Battle
(00:29):
to Save America. Where he first of all, he was
in the CIA. He was the Chief Technology Officer of
the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. It's one of those agencies
does like the satellite imaging and all that stuff in
the spy thrillers. But he's writing in his new book
that he thinks we all should be a little bit
like James Bond. We should be citizen intelligence agencies. Hello, Future,
(00:52):
it's me Kevin. This is a dispatch from the Digital Frontier.
The planet is Earth, the year is twenty twenty five.
My name is Kevin Sirilli. And well, the Central Intelligence Agency,
the CIA, will it become the citizen Intelligence Agency? All right? Anthony?
Are we all going to be James Bond?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I think that we all should become a little bit
like James Bond.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
What do you mean by this?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Something's happened over the last five or ten years. Intelligence espionage.
It used to be about presidents and generals and people
like that. They would the Russia and the Soviets or
the Chinese. They would spy on, you know, people who
work for the government. They would spy on other intelligence officers.
(01:38):
They would spy on, you know, someone making a secret
missile for the for the military. And in the last
few years, what's happened is that we've all everyone has
started become the target of intelligence collection.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Why and why do they want to know what? Little me?
Like a lot of us say, well, I don't really care.
What are they going to steal?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Like?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Why do I care if they know, you know what
Instagram accounts I'm following.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
They've figured out that we are the soft underbelly of America.
These are the everyday people are who vote for leaders.
They're the people who pressure our people in Congress to
pass a law or not. We are the people who
end up serving in the military. Where the people who
work at a company that makes AI that could be
(02:26):
used you know, buyer military or be used to compete
against China economically.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So they think they can influence the generals and the
politicians influencing us. And the way to influence us, this
is their thinking is by spying on us.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Is that what you're saying exactly? So if they can
collect our information and know what people want, then they
can change that information to influence you to do or
not do something.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Can you give me an example, hopefully like a real
application that you're allowed to disclose.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I mean think about it, like advertising, right, advertise just
collect information on you and then they target an ad.
Maybe they want you to get to buy a Chevy
instead of buy a Ford. Well, Russia and something called
the Internet Research Agency, the IRA figured this out. And
what they did is they collected information on Americans using
Facebook and places like that, using social media, and then
(03:21):
they started putting ads. We call that propaganda, but in
effect it's an advertisement in that they were trying to
get Americans to vote for one candidate or another. The
irony is, I believe they didn't actually care who we
voted for. Really, what they wanted was not even just
a change of vote, but just to make everybody really angry,
(03:42):
to create this dissonance in society, to create sort of hatred,
and to create doubt to cast doubt on the election, right,
and so they got what they wanted it. Actually, you know,
it kind of worked, didn't it.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Which is interesting. It's really interesting to hear you put
it that way and to hear someone from you know,
now you're on the outside, but he was on the inside.
You know he's talking if he talks very candidly in
this book. By the way, I'm surprised that you went
as far as you did. And it's really interesting, right book,
the Fourth Intelligence Revolution. It's interesting to hear you describe
it that way, which is the intention was to provoke
a reaction. They don't really care what the reaction is,
(04:14):
but just get the division, get the hatred, get the
trolls that are made up in the bots online, for
us all to be parents of them at the Thanksgiving
table or the holiday table, or in the school yard
or in the line of the pta or wow. Like
that's the point. And it worked in many ways. And
so you write in your book, we all have to
(04:36):
start thinking like intelligence officers. What I just got now
that I didn't necessarily get in my prep for this
interview was you're not saying spy on the lady down
the street, if she put dog poop in your front
yard or had your dog go on the front lawn.
What you're saying is it should be a matter of
national pride of patriotism, not in the partisan sense. Whatever
(04:58):
your partisan beliefs are, I don't care. But these unspoken
truths that we all agree on as Americans, regardless of
you vote for, to have the country's back and to
have an awareness like the intelligence community does that. Iran
Xi Jinping from China and Russia putin that they're trying
to take over this stuff. So what are some stuff
(05:21):
people should do in order to think like an intelligence officer?
And you have this on your substack, which, by the way,
Anthony Vincey dot substack dot com, espionage matters to all
of us. Now subscribe to them, Vincy Vinci, go ahead, Anthony.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Look, you don't even have to be a patriot to
start to think like this or want to think like this.
By the way, you might just be in it to
protect your kids, your family, your friends, your communities. Dis
harms all of us, So you don't have to have
a flag in your front yard. This could just be
about protecting your neighbors who you're friends with. Right, And
I'll tell you first first step in thinking like an
(05:58):
intelligence officer. You know how you get recruited to be
intelligence officer. So the number one thing you have to have.
It's not being clever, it's not being a good liar,
it's having integrity. You cannot be an intelligence officer without
having integrity. And integrity means that I'm not going to
go spy on my neighbor.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
That is AHA moment. Okay, keep going.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I think about it like this, how do you think
like a case officer? I was a case officer. I
was somebody went out, I spotted, assessed, recruited, you know,
foreign nationals to spy on their country for me to
bring the information that I could use to report to
people make better decisions. But you got to be a
little bit cautious when you do this. You got to
remember you're out there. There are people trying to stop
(06:41):
you from doing this. There are people trying to influence you,
to threaten you. So you have to be cautious. And
so the first step in thinking like a spy is
remember things might not be a coincidence. There might be
someone who's actually doing this for a bad reason. So
you might see a story on the Internet that you're
thinking about sharing, and it's like, okay, so just think
(07:03):
for a second. Is there a motivation behind this or
maybe somebody's you know, texting you some something and asking
for information. Do you think that's real or is that fake?
So you gotta be a little bit cautious, maybe a
little bit paranoid.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
I believe every text message I got, I would have
won the lottery seven times.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Already, there we go. Second thing you could do, you.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Say, triangulate like an antelet. By the way, triangular. The
people that they should have recruited was my mother because
that lady when I was a kid, she always said
I've got eyes in the back of my head. Little
keV growing up in Delco, by the way, believed her.
I would go to bed at night and I'm like,
that lady sees everything. I mean, you can't steal any candy,
(07:44):
you can't have any cookies, nothing, because she would literally
just with one look, she would say to me, I
have eyes in the back of my head. And I
was terrified. But maybe we need to think like Chickie,
that's my mom's name, and Delco keep going triangulate like
an analyst.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
There is something natural, by the way, and I don't
think there's anything I'm gonna say is something that your
mother or people in my family too would would wouldn't
think like. Another thing you could do is triangulate analysts
and analysts, if you give them a piece of information
from one source or never gonna believe it, they're always
gonna go and look somewhere else. But if they see
it from multiple sources, then they're gonna believe it. So
(08:21):
if I read something on the New York Times, maybe
I don't believe it. Maybe okay, let me go check
the Wall Street Journal, Let me go check Newsmax, let
me go check this Outshinea Morning see post you know
which is a Chinese If I see it and that
same story is in all of those places, I'm way
more likely to believe it than if I see it
(08:41):
from one source. And I don't care who you trust.
If you trust the right or the left, you gotta
If you trust the right, look at what's on the left,
what they're saying. If you trust the left, look at
what the right saying. That's how you train it.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
You know what else? This is interesting. When I was
at Bloomberg, everybody would ask me, well, how do you
get your news, and I'm like, I go to the
source material. I actually don't watch cable at all. I
think the public has caught onto this. I mean, cable's collapsing,
legacy media dead. I mean, it's not even Titanic. It's
like bottom of the ocean already. I mean, and and
by the way, God bless everybody's still working at all
(09:14):
those legacy institutions. I believe in journalism. I don't think
cable news is the future. I never have. But to
your point, I mean, you've got to watch everything, and
if you're just watching, I don't care if it's what
did they change their name to ms new ms now,
I don't know whatever the old MSNBC used to be.
I think it's ms now or Fox News one or
(09:36):
the other. I don't care, whatever one you're or CNN.
You've got to have the curiosity to think of what
the other political side is thinking. But you shouldn't just
take one station's perspective. You also write about adopting new technology,
like an S and T officer, which I thought was
really really interesting, and to add cost and friction, like
(09:57):
a counterintelligence officer. I don't know what any of them
Mean's Anthony.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Think about Q you know, you know from James Bond,
the guy with all the technology. Those are real people.
They're called S and T officers, and they go out
and they find or make new technologies to use to
spine people or to protect. But the first thing they're
going to do before they adopt that technology is they're
going to see the risks. They're going to test it out,
They're going to look, They're going to see what other
(10:22):
risks are there. Who makes that technology?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
What about tiktoks?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Should all do that a little bit? Yeah, there's a
new social media app. See who makes it? And if
somebody makes it and they happen to also be an
authoritarian society with a record of human rights abuses, maybe
that's not the best one to use.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I mean, why doesn't Washington waken up? How did TikTok happen?
I mean China back to MTV in the nineties, MTV
would not have been on cable. How in the Lord's
name did Republicans and Democrats allow for TikTok to take
hold and make everybody dancing around like zombies.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Part of its money right and lobbying, part of all
of it, but go ahead and then if there's another
part which makes it extra hard. There are a lot
of great creators on TikTok who are all Americans, you know,
mostly TikTok's a platform, and I think, you know, to
give some credit. I believe that TikTok needs to be
banned or given to an American company now. It is
(11:16):
a major, major risk for a whole generation of people.
I don't want to put out a business a TikTok creator.
I think we need to put them on to another platform.
So my preference is that it just becomes American and
we let somebody else own it.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Barry Wis should buy it. That's my that's my free
advice to to Barry Weiss. I guess what you're what
you're saying is we all need to be thinking more
like an intelligence officer. Do you think that America will
heed your advice?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I hope they do. It's not as crazy as it sounds.
Think about this. We train children on cybersecurity all the time.
If I traveled back in time tonight, you know too.
I was a kid in the eighties and I was like, Hey,
we're going to take seven year olds and train them
on cybersecurity. People would have been like, that doesn't make
(12:07):
any sense. I'm not even sure what cybersecurity is, and
why would a child need to do it. And now
every kid in America is taught to change their password
and not click on a phishing email, and like this
is just normal, and we're all taught to do this
now because we see cybersecurity as a threat. We don't
want our information stolen, whatever it is we need. Once
we start to see this as a threat and realize
(12:28):
this is a real threat, we will go and should
go train people to do this and to protect themselves.
It's absurd that we are more concerned with the security
of our computer than our own minds and our children's.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Well I love that, Yeah, I love what you just said.
It's about protecting your mind. That is so well said,
and that should be taught. And that's just not just
from technology, from many many things. Last question, when you
were in the CIA, did you ever I saw on
YouTube that like sometimes the CIA you all put on
these masks, these prosthetics and you have to like go
(13:00):
under deep costume. Did you ever have to do that?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Just to be clear, I didn't work at the CIA.
I worked at another agency, but I did train with them.
I went, I went to a specialized school. You can
see other people online. I'm being very careful here about
what I can say and not say. Other people online
have absolutely talked about the use of disguise in espionage.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, I would say they must win Halloween, but hey,
what do I know? All right, Thanks so much. Anthony Vinci,
author of the great new book The Fourth Intelligence Revolution,
is getting such good reviews from the guy who wrote Chipwar,
Chris Miller, hr McMaster, David Ignatius. I mean, really welcome.
I mean, if you're now in that league, So congratulations
to Anthony Vince, Thank you, thanks so much for grabbing
(13:45):
me
Nowadays, artificial intelligence is everywhere. The Chinese are spying on us,
the Russians are spying on us. North Korean's trying to
spy on us, the Ron probably trying to spy on us.
And the thought in the Zeitgeist by this guy named
Anthony vince Doctor Anthony Vincey is the author of The
Fourth Intelligence Revolution, The Future of Espionage and the Battle
(00:29):
to Save America. Where he first of all, he was
in the CIA. He was the Chief Technology Officer of
the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. It's one of those agencies
does like the satellite imaging and all that stuff in
the spy thrillers. But he's writing in his new book
that he thinks we all should be a little bit
like James Bond. We should be citizen intelligence agencies. Hello, Future,
(00:52):
it's me Kevin. This is a dispatch from the Digital Frontier.
The planet is Earth, the year is twenty twenty five.
My name is Kevin Sirilli. And well, the Central Intelligence Agency,
the CIA, will it become the citizen Intelligence Agency? All right? Anthony?
Are we all going to be James Bond?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I think that we all should become a little bit
like James Bond.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
What do you mean by this?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Something's happened over the last five or ten years. Intelligence espionage.
It used to be about presidents and generals and people
like that. They would the Russia and the Soviets or
the Chinese. They would spy on, you know, people who
work for the government. They would spy on other intelligence officers.
(01:38):
They would spy on, you know, someone making a secret
missile for the for the military. And in the last
few years, what's happened is that we've all everyone has
started become the target of intelligence collection.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Why and why do they want to know what? Little me?
Like a lot of us say, well, I don't really care.
What are they going to steal?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Like?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Why do I care if they know, you know what
Instagram accounts I'm following.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
They've figured out that we are the soft underbelly of America.
These are the everyday people are who vote for leaders.
They're the people who pressure our people in Congress to
pass a law or not. We are the people who
end up serving in the military. Where the people who
work at a company that makes AI that could be
(02:26):
used you know, buyer military or be used to compete
against China economically.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So they think they can influence the generals and the
politicians influencing us. And the way to influence us, this
is their thinking is by spying on us.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Is that what you're saying exactly? So if they can
collect our information and know what people want, then they
can change that information to influence you to do or
not do something.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Can you give me an example, hopefully like a real
application that you're allowed to disclose.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I mean think about it, like advertising, right, advertise just
collect information on you and then they target an ad.
Maybe they want you to get to buy a Chevy
instead of buy a Ford. Well, Russia and something called
the Internet Research Agency, the IRA figured this out. And
what they did is they collected information on Americans using
Facebook and places like that, using social media, and then
(03:21):
they started putting ads. We call that propaganda, but in
effect it's an advertisement in that they were trying to
get Americans to vote for one candidate or another. The
irony is, I believe they didn't actually care who we
voted for. Really, what they wanted was not even just
a change of vote, but just to make everybody really angry,
(03:42):
to create this dissonance in society, to create sort of hatred,
and to create doubt to cast doubt on the election, right,
and so they got what they wanted it. Actually, you know,
it kind of worked, didn't it.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Which is interesting. It's really interesting to hear you put
it that way and to hear someone from you know,
now you're on the outside, but he was on the inside.
You know he's talking if he talks very candidly in
this book. By the way, I'm surprised that you went
as far as you did. And it's really interesting, right book,
the Fourth Intelligence Revolution. It's interesting to hear you describe
it that way, which is the intention was to provoke
a reaction. They don't really care what the reaction is,
(04:14):
but just get the division, get the hatred, get the
trolls that are made up in the bots online, for
us all to be parents of them at the Thanksgiving
table or the holiday table, or in the school yard
or in the line of the pta or wow. Like
that's the point. And it worked in many ways. And
so you write in your book, we all have to
(04:36):
start thinking like intelligence officers. What I just got now
that I didn't necessarily get in my prep for this
interview was you're not saying spy on the lady down
the street, if she put dog poop in your front
yard or had your dog go on the front lawn.
What you're saying is it should be a matter of
national pride of patriotism, not in the partisan sense. Whatever
(04:58):
your partisan beliefs are, I don't care. But these unspoken
truths that we all agree on as Americans, regardless of
you vote for, to have the country's back and to
have an awareness like the intelligence community does that. Iran
Xi Jinping from China and Russia putin that they're trying
to take over this stuff. So what are some stuff
(05:21):
people should do in order to think like an intelligence officer?
And you have this on your substack, which, by the way,
Anthony Vincey dot substack dot com, espionage matters to all
of us. Now subscribe to them, Vincy Vinci, go ahead, Anthony.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Look, you don't even have to be a patriot to
start to think like this or want to think like this.
By the way, you might just be in it to
protect your kids, your family, your friends, your communities. Dis
harms all of us, So you don't have to have
a flag in your front yard. This could just be
about protecting your neighbors who you're friends with. Right, And
I'll tell you first first step in thinking like an
(05:58):
intelligence officer. You know how you get recruited to be
intelligence officer. So the number one thing you have to have.
It's not being clever, it's not being a good liar,
it's having integrity. You cannot be an intelligence officer without
having integrity. And integrity means that I'm not going to
go spy on my neighbor.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
That is AHA moment. Okay, keep going.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I think about it like this, how do you think
like a case officer? I was a case officer. I
was somebody went out, I spotted, assessed, recruited, you know,
foreign nationals to spy on their country for me to
bring the information that I could use to report to
people make better decisions. But you got to be a
little bit cautious when you do this. You got to
remember you're out there. There are people trying to stop
(06:41):
you from doing this. There are people trying to influence you,
to threaten you. So you have to be cautious. And
so the first step in thinking like a spy is
remember things might not be a coincidence. There might be
someone who's actually doing this for a bad reason. So
you might see a story on the Internet that you're
thinking about sharing, and it's like, okay, so just think
(07:03):
for a second. Is there a motivation behind this or
maybe somebody's you know, texting you some something and asking
for information. Do you think that's real or is that fake?
So you gotta be a little bit cautious, maybe a
little bit paranoid.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
I believe every text message I got, I would have
won the lottery seven times.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Already, there we go. Second thing you could do, you.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Say, triangulate like an antelet. By the way, triangular. The
people that they should have recruited was my mother because
that lady when I was a kid, she always said
I've got eyes in the back of my head. Little
keV growing up in Delco, by the way, believed her.
I would go to bed at night and I'm like,
that lady sees everything. I mean, you can't steal any candy,
(07:44):
you can't have any cookies, nothing, because she would literally
just with one look, she would say to me, I
have eyes in the back of my head. And I
was terrified. But maybe we need to think like Chickie,
that's my mom's name, and Delco keep going triangulate like
an analyst.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
There is something natural, by the way, and I don't
think there's anything I'm gonna say is something that your
mother or people in my family too would would wouldn't
think like. Another thing you could do is triangulate analysts
and analysts, if you give them a piece of information
from one source or never gonna believe it, they're always
gonna go and look somewhere else. But if they see
it from multiple sources, then they're gonna believe it. So
(08:21):
if I read something on the New York Times, maybe
I don't believe it. Maybe okay, let me go check
the Wall Street Journal, Let me go check Newsmax, let
me go check this Outshinea Morning see post you know
which is a Chinese If I see it and that
same story is in all of those places, I'm way
more likely to believe it than if I see it
(08:41):
from one source. And I don't care who you trust.
If you trust the right or the left, you gotta
If you trust the right, look at what's on the left,
what they're saying. If you trust the left, look at
what the right saying. That's how you train it.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
You know what else? This is interesting. When I was
at Bloomberg, everybody would ask me, well, how do you
get your news, and I'm like, I go to the
source material. I actually don't watch cable at all. I
think the public has caught onto this. I mean, cable's collapsing,
legacy media dead. I mean, it's not even Titanic. It's
like bottom of the ocean already. I mean, and and
by the way, God bless everybody's still working at all
(09:14):
those legacy institutions. I believe in journalism. I don't think
cable news is the future. I never have. But to
your point, I mean, you've got to watch everything, and
if you're just watching, I don't care if it's what
did they change their name to ms new ms now,
I don't know whatever the old MSNBC used to be.
I think it's ms now or Fox News one or
(09:36):
the other. I don't care, whatever one you're or CNN.
You've got to have the curiosity to think of what
the other political side is thinking. But you shouldn't just
take one station's perspective. You also write about adopting new technology,
like an S and T officer, which I thought was
really really interesting, and to add cost and friction, like
(09:57):
a counterintelligence officer. I don't know what any of them
Mean's Anthony.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Think about Q you know, you know from James Bond,
the guy with all the technology. Those are real people.
They're called S and T officers, and they go out
and they find or make new technologies to use to
spine people or to protect. But the first thing they're
going to do before they adopt that technology is they're
going to see the risks. They're going to test it out,
They're going to look, They're going to see what other
(10:22):
risks are there. Who makes that technology?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
What about tiktoks?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Should all do that a little bit? Yeah, there's a
new social media app. See who makes it? And if
somebody makes it and they happen to also be an
authoritarian society with a record of human rights abuses, maybe
that's not the best one to use.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I mean, why doesn't Washington waken up? How did TikTok happen?
I mean China back to MTV in the nineties, MTV
would not have been on cable. How in the Lord's
name did Republicans and Democrats allow for TikTok to take
hold and make everybody dancing around like zombies.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Part of its money right and lobbying, part of all
of it, but go ahead and then if there's another
part which makes it extra hard. There are a lot
of great creators on TikTok who are all Americans, you know,
mostly TikTok's a platform, and I think, you know, to
give some credit. I believe that TikTok needs to be
banned or given to an American company now. It is
(11:16):
a major, major risk for a whole generation of people.
I don't want to put out a business a TikTok creator.
I think we need to put them on to another platform.
So my preference is that it just becomes American and
we let somebody else own it.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Barry Wis should buy it. That's my that's my free
advice to to Barry Weiss. I guess what you're what
you're saying is we all need to be thinking more
like an intelligence officer. Do you think that America will
heed your advice?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I hope they do. It's not as crazy as it sounds.
Think about this. We train children on cybersecurity all the time.
If I traveled back in time tonight, you know too.
I was a kid in the eighties and I was like, Hey,
we're going to take seven year olds and train them
on cybersecurity. People would have been like, that doesn't make
(12:07):
any sense. I'm not even sure what cybersecurity is, and
why would a child need to do it. And now
every kid in America is taught to change their password
and not click on a phishing email, and like this
is just normal, and we're all taught to do this
now because we see cybersecurity as a threat. We don't
want our information stolen, whatever it is we need. Once
we start to see this as a threat and realize
(12:28):
this is a real threat, we will go and should
go train people to do this and to protect themselves.
It's absurd that we are more concerned with the security
of our computer than our own minds and our children's.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Well I love that, Yeah, I love what you just said.
It's about protecting your mind. That is so well said,
and that should be taught. And that's just not just
from technology, from many many things. Last question, when you
were in the CIA, did you ever I saw on
YouTube that like sometimes the CIA you all put on
these masks, these prosthetics and you have to like go
(13:00):
under deep costume. Did you ever have to do that?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Just to be clear, I didn't work at the CIA.
I worked at another agency, but I did train with them.
I went, I went to a specialized school. You can
see other people online. I'm being very careful here about
what I can say and not say. Other people online
have absolutely talked about the use of disguise in espionage.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, I would say they must win Halloween, but hey,
what do I know? All right, Thanks so much. Anthony Vinci,
author of the great new book The Fourth Intelligence Revolution,
is getting such good reviews from the guy who wrote Chipwar,
Chris Miller, hr McMaster, David Ignatius. I mean, really welcome.
I mean, if you're now in that league, So congratulations
to Anthony Vince, Thank you, thanks so much for grabbing
(13:45):
me
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