November 12, 2025 • 23 mins
The game has changed — and so has the business behind it. Kevin Cirilli sits down with Jeff Fellenzer, USC Professor of Sports Business Media at the Annenberg School — and a long-time friend of legendary coach John Wooden — to ask the billion-dollar question: what would Coach Wooden think about the new era of college sports? With NIL deals, transfer portals, and brand endorsements redefining what it means to be a “student-athlete,” the line between amateur and professional sports is blurring fast. Jeff, a Heisman Trophy voter who’s spent decades studying the intersection of sports, business, and media, brings historical insight and personal stories from his time with Wooden to explore how integrity, education, and competition can survive — and thrive — in this new landscape. Together, Kevin and Jeff tackle the future of college athletics, where the playbook now includes contracts, social media strategy, and AI-powered recruiting.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
College sports is changing money capitalism nil. How much money
should the quarterback get? How much money should the women's
volleyball team get? How much money should the golfer get?
It is crazy. This is a multi billion dollar industry.
You've got legislation in Washington making its way, private equity
(00:30):
getting involved, kids getting recruited in middle school. It is wild.
What does it mean though, for the future of college sports.
That's what we're looking at today. Hello future, it's me keV.
This is a dispatch from the Digital Frontier. The year
is twenty twenty five. The planet is Earth. My name
is Kevin Sirilli my guest today. Awesome guy. Shout out
(00:53):
to producer Jason for booking his former professor who had
at school. His name's Jeff Felonser USC, professor of Sports
Business Media at the Annimverge School Grade school. We're stepping
into the digital diving today, my friend. Thank you so
much Jeff for coming on. You teach all about sports business,
sports technology. It's crazy how big of a business this
has become. Talk to me about how you first got
(01:15):
into the technology of sports.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
You know, first of all, Cavic's a real pleasure to
be with you on the show, and thank you to Jason.
I'm glad he walked away with a good experience. Hope
that many did decent in the class. He got a
decent grade, but at least he had a good experience.
And that's my golf and students, you know, a sports
have been a part of my life since I could
probably just barely talk, and it just I think just grew.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It was kind of a sideline teaching about sports in
the world of sports I was. I was so immersed
in it. I sort of found my footing on this
area of sharing my experiences and as an entrepreneur and
covering sports. And it was a student at USC and
I really I kind of found my footing there and
really developed my own passion and where I could take it.
(02:05):
And it just worked out. After I created a college
basketball event, was involved in that the b Area Peyton
Newill Challenge for years, just you know, bringing students into
sort of my world and all it entailed and the
people that I met along the way. There's no there's
no area I think of that I've come across, you know,
in our culture that provides more great storytelling and more
(02:27):
great people than the world of sports, and my thing
is I really wanted the students to connect with my
network and share this with them so long away. That
led to this class. The Sports Business Media Class is
kind of my signature class at USC. But also I
began to see the impact of technology ten years ago.
Maybe it was around twenty fourteen or so that we
(02:49):
created this class about the intersection of sports and tech,
and then it was and then it's the same length
of time in the class, almost three hours as the
you know as the broader Sports Build, Business and Media class.
But I thought they were all for at Amberg. And
then I was like, wow, okay, we've got it now
can we can we really make this work over you know,
weekly class over three hours? And what I found is,
(03:11):
as you kind of alluded to, with technology, there's so
much going on in the tech world with sports that
I had plenty have plenty of material to cover and
not to get even too all of it in our class.
But I think we get we get enough on the
landscape that students have a better feel and it won't
seem like a foreign language.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
That's my bigg Who is your athlete is a kid
though like for me, it's people can't see this, but
I have an Alan Iverson jersey on right now. When
I was a kid growing up outside of Filli and Delco,
I would listen to Angelo Caatality and you know on
sixth n w IP and honestly, the broadcasters who really
I think got in my head was sports radio Sixtheen
(03:50):
w IP and Angelo Cantality and I remember listening to
him in lockdown because I was like, I need Angela
from when I was a kid.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I had a student tell me the other day in class,
a grand student from the Bronx, and we were talking
about AI and she said, you know, I still have
a part time saying AI and not thinking about Alan
Iverson exactly. Oh. I what a great observation that we're
in the world where the AI world And somebody says
kind of goes old school and says, to me, AI
(04:16):
still means Alan.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Iverson AI is the answer. But to me, when I
look back on the practice thing, because he just came
out with the book, but I knew this, like the
og fans really understood what that press conference. That with
that press conference, the media did him so dirty. It
was taken so out of context that we're talking about
practice practice that was taken so out of context. So
(04:39):
for me Ai, truthfully, for my sister, it was Michael Jordan.
I love Michael Jordan likeke but Ai was the moments
like I was in sixth grade. He was the moment.
Who was that athlete for you that really sent you
on this trajectory.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I don't know, honestly, Kevin, if there was one, you know,
my favorite baseball player beyond being having this passionate and
at connection to the Dodgers, and I worked for a
couple of years when I was when I was in college,
but Roberto Clementi was always somebody to me that was
just magical. And how he played the game is with
the dignity and the passion and the skill. I just
(05:18):
and I love the number. I always tried to be
twenty one. I thought it was a really cool number
before twenty three became a thing, you know with MJ.
But you know Sandy Kofax too, because another one that
was magical. He did things that were just crazy, beyond
belief during that six year run that he had era
is under two and striking out three hundred in the season.
(05:39):
And so think about growing up in LA like in
the sixties and seventies when you'd have you know, Jerry
West and Elgin Balor and Wilt Chamberlain, and then you'd
transition to baseball season with Sandy Kofax and Don Drysdale
and Maury Wills and Steve Garvey and those players, and
(05:59):
then college with USC football and UCLA basketball, and coach
wouldn't became a dear friend. And he was well into
his post coaching life, and it was nineties at one point,
reciting poetry off the top of his head. So yeah,
John McKay and football season, John Wooden. It was all
those things, Kevin that contributed to me. And I grew
(06:21):
up across the street. This is this factor, isn't it too.
I grew up across the street from my elementary school,
which had a huge playground, much bigger than the size
of the actual school of the enrollment. I mean, you
had to just about drag me off the playground every
day to get me home for dinner. I was. I
was lucky. I was. I was in a great village,
raised by you know, this collective sports minded community. So
(06:42):
it felt very, very fortunate.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Did your friendship with Coach Wooden? I could just do
a whole show on that. So I want to use
this as a thread for our conversations because some of
my favorite quotes. You know, success is never final, failure
is never fatal. It's the courage to accounts. I mean
I can't read that and not get a lump in
my throat and think of every teacher who used to
say that, or my dad after losing soccer. I mean,
(07:05):
it's what he got that sports is not about sports,
It's about so much more. Is really really crazy, It's
it's awesome. Nothing will work unless you do. Don't let
yesterday take too much of today. I mean it's crazy.
Tell us one story or anecdotes that's coming to mind
as you're hearing me fan over that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
I think just his presence, I just once I got
to know him. I I really beat a path to
his home, his modest home, and sino. It was on
a street called Margate. I called it the Mecca on Margate.
I bet you know. I was there probably fifty sixty times,
and I would try to bring a different person with
me every time that I came so they could experience
(07:48):
what it was like just to have a conversation with
this man who was just full of so much life
and wisdom and goodness. And he was a great listener.
I always admired that too, like all he wanted to
do is hear him tell stories, and he would be
asking us questions and he never you know, man of faith.
But he didn't beat you over the head with that.
(08:09):
He just if you brought it up, he would be
happy to talk about it. I was just struck by
how gracious and humble and grounded you walk into his place,
and it was like a shrine to his two favorite
people in life, Abraham Lincoln and mother Teresa. Those were
his role models, the people he admired the most. I
(08:30):
do a tribute to him in my class, and Jason
probably remembers this called our weakly wooden or I do
a observation or reflection about life basketball. Sometimes it's sports related,
and most of the time it's just about life. You know.
He says about being more concerned with your character than
your reputation. Characters, who you really are, reputations what people
(08:51):
think you are. And I make sure I use that
one on the first night of class, because I think
college students are pressured in so many ways to fit in,
to stand out, get likes, get follows, and and that's
all understandable and human nature to be liked and admired things,
but to be more concerned, it's sort of like bringing
(09:13):
you back a little bit to you know, the essence
of who we really are, which is your character, and
develop that. If that's your foundation, if that's if that's
your core. The other stuff comes from that, But it
comes back to your core, and that's what will drive you.
That's what will really cause you to have.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
You saying you're you're obviously a great teacher, because even
just peppering the language and for folks listening, I mean
peppering the language with the pressure to get likes. I
mean that's like a real pressure in the zeitgeist of
the modern American under thirty five year old. Like it's
it's very real, and it's starting so horribly young, So
(09:55):
that that's really really strong what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
With the all the advantages, the incredible advantages that technology
has brought us, and having a smartphone, we take it,
you know, we take it everywhere. It's our connection to
the world. It's amazing. But along the way, you know,
again you talk, you know, you mentioned the pressure and
just sometimes you're trying to you're trying to be an influencer. Well,
(10:20):
that means you've got to have people that follow you
and that say you're you know, you're amazing and doing
these things, and along the way they'll rip you to shreds.
You know, how do you come to grips with that?
I feel like Coach's Coach Wooden's messages are so simple.
Make each day your masterpiece. Drink deeply from good books,
just things if you thought about. And I tell the students, look,
(10:41):
not every one of the ones I'm going to say
will resonate with you, but I hope if you will,
And I hope that maybe some of those will stick
with you and maybe resonate later. They'll they'll be in
your consciousness somewhere and then maybe they'll kick in. You'll remember,
because I've had feedback to that effect. One student told
me that every week the Weekly wouldn't she would send
it on to her high school sister at home as
(11:03):
something just to remind her of core values and principles
to keep in mind. So I think Coach Wooden' is
he keeps on giving. And I told him once, I said,
did you ever think when your dad was sharing some
of his reflections with you, and you're a kid and
growing up on a farm in Midwest and Indiana nineteen twenties.
(11:25):
Things you're saying that you talk about with your dad
would impact people around the world today in the twenty
first century. And typical coach when he goes, think my
dad would be pleased.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That was it.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That's kind of who he was. The other one that
I want to share too for your audience I think
is important is he always had a problem with the
word overachiever. And I love that. I tell my class,
help me stamp that word out. He said, how can
you achieve? Be above your level of success? If you
achieve something, it's because you were able to achieve it.
(11:57):
And so I tell my students again, if any of
you grow up to be President of the United States,
president of a Fortune five hundred company, whatever it is,
serving your community at the highest level, I said, you
didn't over achieve. You achieved what you were capable of achieving.
Helped me stamp out the use of the word. You
know in sports, that gritty group of overachievers. Really, really
(12:19):
what it's about is the expectations for that team were lower,
but that's on you. That's not on me. We achieved
what we were capable of achieving. Now, if you have
a you know, in a steroid area, yeah, there may
be times where, yeah, you went above what you should
have because it was artificially in hand. That's that's about. Otherwise,
it's always like we have this like, well, you achieved more,
(12:41):
you were an over No. No, I exceeded your expectations,
and that's on you. I did what I was capable
of doing, and I want the students to know that.
So that was Coach Wooden saying that word. You know,
that word bothers me, and I was like, yeah, it
bothers me too, And.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I think about, well, I love all of that, and
it makes me happy that you're one of the nine
hundred plus folks who are voting on the Heisman Trophy
every year, because clearly you come at it from a
perspective that I think a lot of us do. Because
I was just having this conversation we got to start
talking about technology, but I'm just having a conversation about
how the future of sports with all this money that's
(13:17):
being thrown around for college athletes, it's crazy and it's
I don't even know how you even start to regulate
it or how you start to even say that education
matters when they're getting insane. And I gotta be honest,
I don't really like to take positions. I'm not saying
that they should make nothing. But it's wild.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah it's wild. But I just think I come back
to this line. I use this. It's a disruption. It's
not destruction.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
It's a disruption, and said, I love that word disruptor disruption.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, the system was, it was out of whack. But
on the side of management and the administration. So long
as as the media rights money has just gone crazy
and hit into the billions, there's just no good reason
that athletes shouldn't share.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
I just had naha moment through the word disruption and
system that just triggered for me was well, then stop
trying to apply Kevin me, like, stop thinking about this
as if it's you know, the president of a university
and the dean of a school wanting their kid to
go to math class, like it stop. You know that
(14:32):
might have been true fifty years ago, but that's not
that's the wrong system. This is a business, and yeah,
the stars of the industry should get some revenue for sure.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, what we're seeing, Kevin, is that what I call
the professionalization of couds. And look, there was a time
when the Olympics were all amateur. We sent our top
college players to compete in the Olympics, and it would
be kind of fun because you'd see these college play
basketball players that you were used to seeing and were
stars together. The eighty four team with Michael Jordan amazing. Well,
(15:05):
the other countries were sending essentially their pro teams because
they don't have a college system likely do. That's not fair.
So at some point they said, let's just send the
best players in your country and everybody's country. Let's just
send the best players, and you know what we found.
I think it's kind of cool to see Lebron James
and Steph Curry at the front of a boat shooting
(15:26):
down the Senn River at waving American flags like they're
experiencing something they didn't expect it. And NFL players will
do that in flag football in twenty twenty eight. So
there was a time when that seemed crazy. It was
about amateur sports, our olympians, and now it's open to
professionals and college sports is undergoing that transformation. Very few
(15:51):
were getting rich. Many have deals, but the stars are
the ones that we typically hear about. And you say, well,
how is that working in the locker room with players
that are making X amount, usually the quarterback or start
running back or receiver. I don't know how did it
work out in the Patriots locker room with Tom Brady
making he was making and a backup offensive line lineman
(16:13):
making what he I mean you, I've never been as
worried about that it works out. But we're at a
time when your alma mater, Penn State, fires its coach.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And you got fifty million dollars.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
So think about that. You got fired, but fired not
even halfway through the season. That never happened in college sports, correct,
But it's happening now.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
So as you game this out, I'm an American who
subscribes to the ideology that I do believe. I was disgusted,
to be blunt to use the word at how much
coach Franklin got at a time, especially with Penn State,
when they shut down branch campuses that year, and then
the president of the university gets a one point four
million dollar race. That is something that in the era
(16:54):
of income inequality. I don't care if you're a Republican
or a Democrat, and I'm out of politics, thank god.
But it doesn't register for you know, a guy like me.
So what effect will it happen? Maybe I'm wrong, Maybe
you've got it because I would have a different perspective
if I looked at it through the prism of well
shareholder value, board of directors. They're on Wall Street. You know.
(17:16):
If I think of it like that, I can get
to where you're the sandbox that you're in. But when
I think of it as no coach Wooded, you know,
this is like principle, it's hard work, you know, show
up early for practice. There's no name on the back
of my jersey. Like, when I think of it like that,
I'm like, what is happening to the future of college sports?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
It's evolving for sure. Again, I think it's a disruption.
I don't think it's destruction. Him in his last year
at UCLA, the season it ended in nineteen seventy five,
when UCLA won it's a tenth NCAA championship under coach
Would He made thirty two, five hundred dollars and that
was just the way things work at the end. As
(17:58):
time went on, he stayed grounded to principles. They were
writing him blank checks. Whatever you would like to fill
in to come and share your wisdom, you tell us
the amount. So he was just patient and he kind
of stuck to his principles stubbornly at some times, but
he did and it paid off for him in many,
many other ways. But we have this amount of money.
(18:21):
You know, we're talking about schools having a private equity
come in and being involved in athletic departments. That's obviously
a hot topic right now. It's just there are people
with the kind of companies, with the kind of wealth
that they want to be involved and connected to sports.
College sports sports is still a real, live, immersive experience
(18:43):
and brings us the passion that we see every week
in stadiums and arenas, and there's nothing like it.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Do you think that within the future, because of the
payment injecting into college sports, do you think it's gonna
make it somehow worse for high school athletes?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Like?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
How does this change high school athletes? How does this
change recruitment academies in middle school, in elementary school. I mean,
you look at the football clubs soccer clubs, football clubs Europe,
for example, and the academy's over there. But how does
this change when when so much money is on the line,
private equities get involved. How does this change youth sports?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
That's a great question, Kevin, and I don't know. It's
trickling down, There's no question it's trickling down. And the
and the high schools that play at the really high
level in some of the big cities and and and
have the biggest football leagues California and Texas, Florida, Ohio,
those places. I mean, you know, it's there will be
(19:39):
a premium still at at acquiring talent. It's just it's
going to get younger and younger. I think we don't
have the regulations, we don't have the guardrails set up
at every level. I think that's coming in some form. Again,
it won't involve every player. It it will involve some
you know, difference maker players. It will certainly will not
(19:59):
get to every high school throughout America anything like that,
So keep that in mind.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well, coach wouldn't want college athletes to be paid.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I think it would have been hard for him to understand,
given how he was brought up in the system and
how it worked for him, and it's worked for a
lot of people, most people. I think most college athletes
probably had good experiences, regardless of whether they became stars
in college, but good experiences to prepare them for life
(20:29):
after college. I think it's just it's just a different model.
And I think coach would have he would have had
to get used to doing something that would have been
difficult for him, which is the idea of players are
on a payroll, because he would have talked about what
about the education, what about the value of the education.
(20:49):
And that's the challenge that the players now have to
make sure that you're not overlooking what will help, what
will stay with you for the rest of your life
and help guide you down a career path. And I
talk to athletes about this, like stay is disciplined in
the classroom as you do on a practice field or
court or pool, because it's still impactful and even if
(21:13):
you have a pro career.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
At the old school, even here. And I can't help it.
I have to own my bias because I think people
can sniff through when you but like for me, it's
hearing you talk. I'm like, I'm just thinking to myself.
They're employees. They're not athletic. They're employees. They're performers. They're
entertainers now and student When millions of dollars are on
(21:34):
the line, I mean, it's like asking a Hollywood starlet
to be blunt with you to get a college degree.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I mean, what are millions of dollars on the line
for a volleyball player.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
What's fascinating is it's a microcosm of capitalism. Because I'm
a capitalist. I love capitalism with a conscience, and I
love the American dream and I still believe in it,
and it should be modernized. And maybe this is, in
its own unique way, a modernization and a re update,
a reboot of the system. So I'm gonna hold my
(22:07):
fire and I am willing to change my mind and evolve,
but I do struggle with it, if I'm being truthful.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I just remember Kevin that that people had the same
issue when free agency came to pro sports. Fair what
like people in the seventies like they love the Dodgers
infield of Steve Garvey, Davey Lopes, Bill Russell, and Ron
say they stayed together for I think it was eight
full seasons and they love that because people love things
they can count on in sports, just like little kids
(22:36):
like certain things they have to have they count on,
and it was like you could count on that and
it was great, But that wasn't fair to those players
that they didn't have a choice at some point of
where they played, and it was hard for people to
get used to. No, I'm not gonna I'm gonna hold out,
and I don't you know, it's not I'm not being
fairly compensated. I'm gonna go somewhere else, and it's kind
(23:01):
of my right.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Like what, I am very torn on this. I'm gonna
just come out like I totally see both sides of this,
and I have I think both sides make very strong arguments.
So I'm going to say, you know, not that my
vote matters at all, doesn't at all, but for what
it's worth, my own my own evolution of thinking. Thank
you so much. Yeah, well, thank you so much. Jeff Felonser,
he is awesome. Thank you to producer Jason for booking him.
(23:24):
He teaches at USC. I'm just so incredibly grateful. Thank
you so much.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
My pleasure
College sports is changing money capitalism nil. How much money
should the quarterback get? How much money should the women's
volleyball team get? How much money should the golfer get?
It is crazy. This is a multi billion dollar industry.
You've got legislation in Washington making its way, private equity
(00:30):
getting involved, kids getting recruited in middle school. It is wild.
What does it mean though, for the future of college sports.
That's what we're looking at today. Hello future, it's me keV.
This is a dispatch from the Digital Frontier. The year
is twenty twenty five. The planet is Earth. My name
is Kevin Sirilli my guest today. Awesome guy. Shout out
(00:53):
to producer Jason for booking his former professor who had
at school. His name's Jeff Felonser USC, professor of Sports
Business Media at the Annimverge School Grade school. We're stepping
into the digital diving today, my friend. Thank you so
much Jeff for coming on. You teach all about sports business,
sports technology. It's crazy how big of a business this
has become. Talk to me about how you first got
(01:15):
into the technology of sports.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
You know, first of all, Cavic's a real pleasure to
be with you on the show, and thank you to Jason.
I'm glad he walked away with a good experience. Hope
that many did decent in the class. He got a
decent grade, but at least he had a good experience.
And that's my golf and students, you know, a sports
have been a part of my life since I could
probably just barely talk, and it just I think just grew.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It was kind of a sideline teaching about sports in
the world of sports I was. I was so immersed
in it. I sort of found my footing on this
area of sharing my experiences and as an entrepreneur and
covering sports. And it was a student at USC and
I really I kind of found my footing there and
really developed my own passion and where I could take it.
(02:05):
And it just worked out. After I created a college
basketball event, was involved in that the b Area Peyton
Newill Challenge for years, just you know, bringing students into
sort of my world and all it entailed and the
people that I met along the way. There's no there's
no area I think of that I've come across, you know,
in our culture that provides more great storytelling and more
(02:27):
great people than the world of sports, and my thing
is I really wanted the students to connect with my
network and share this with them so long away. That
led to this class. The Sports Business Media Class is
kind of my signature class at USC. But also I
began to see the impact of technology ten years ago.
Maybe it was around twenty fourteen or so that we
(02:49):
created this class about the intersection of sports and tech,
and then it was and then it's the same length
of time in the class, almost three hours as the
you know as the broader Sports Build, Business and Media class.
But I thought they were all for at Amberg. And
then I was like, wow, okay, we've got it now
can we can we really make this work over you know,
weekly class over three hours? And what I found is,
(03:11):
as you kind of alluded to, with technology, there's so
much going on in the tech world with sports that
I had plenty have plenty of material to cover and
not to get even too all of it in our class.
But I think we get we get enough on the
landscape that students have a better feel and it won't
seem like a foreign language.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
That's my bigg Who is your athlete is a kid
though like for me, it's people can't see this, but
I have an Alan Iverson jersey on right now. When
I was a kid growing up outside of Filli and Delco,
I would listen to Angelo Caatality and you know on
sixth n w IP and honestly, the broadcasters who really
I think got in my head was sports radio Sixtheen
(03:50):
w IP and Angelo Cantality and I remember listening to
him in lockdown because I was like, I need Angela
from when I was a kid.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I had a student tell me the other day in class,
a grand student from the Bronx, and we were talking
about AI and she said, you know, I still have
a part time saying AI and not thinking about Alan
Iverson exactly. Oh. I what a great observation that we're
in the world where the AI world And somebody says
kind of goes old school and says, to me, AI
(04:16):
still means Alan.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Iverson AI is the answer. But to me, when I
look back on the practice thing, because he just came
out with the book, but I knew this, like the
og fans really understood what that press conference. That with
that press conference, the media did him so dirty. It
was taken so out of context that we're talking about
practice practice that was taken so out of context. So
(04:39):
for me Ai, truthfully, for my sister, it was Michael Jordan.
I love Michael Jordan likeke but Ai was the moments
like I was in sixth grade. He was the moment.
Who was that athlete for you that really sent you
on this trajectory.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I don't know, honestly, Kevin, if there was one, you know,
my favorite baseball player beyond being having this passionate and
at connection to the Dodgers, and I worked for a
couple of years when I was when I was in college,
but Roberto Clementi was always somebody to me that was
just magical. And how he played the game is with
the dignity and the passion and the skill. I just
(05:18):
and I love the number. I always tried to be
twenty one. I thought it was a really cool number
before twenty three became a thing, you know with MJ.
But you know Sandy Kofax too, because another one that
was magical. He did things that were just crazy, beyond
belief during that six year run that he had era
is under two and striking out three hundred in the season.
(05:39):
And so think about growing up in LA like in
the sixties and seventies when you'd have you know, Jerry
West and Elgin Balor and Wilt Chamberlain, and then you'd
transition to baseball season with Sandy Kofax and Don Drysdale
and Maury Wills and Steve Garvey and those players, and
(05:59):
then college with USC football and UCLA basketball, and coach
wouldn't became a dear friend. And he was well into
his post coaching life, and it was nineties at one point,
reciting poetry off the top of his head. So yeah,
John McKay and football season, John Wooden. It was all
those things, Kevin that contributed to me. And I grew
(06:21):
up across the street. This is this factor, isn't it too.
I grew up across the street from my elementary school,
which had a huge playground, much bigger than the size
of the actual school of the enrollment. I mean, you
had to just about drag me off the playground every
day to get me home for dinner. I was. I
was lucky. I was. I was in a great village,
raised by you know, this collective sports minded community. So
(06:42):
it felt very, very fortunate.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Did your friendship with Coach Wooden? I could just do
a whole show on that. So I want to use
this as a thread for our conversations because some of
my favorite quotes. You know, success is never final, failure
is never fatal. It's the courage to accounts. I mean
I can't read that and not get a lump in
my throat and think of every teacher who used to
say that, or my dad after losing soccer. I mean,
(07:05):
it's what he got that sports is not about sports,
It's about so much more. Is really really crazy, It's
it's awesome. Nothing will work unless you do. Don't let
yesterday take too much of today. I mean it's crazy.
Tell us one story or anecdotes that's coming to mind
as you're hearing me fan over that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
I think just his presence, I just once I got
to know him. I I really beat a path to
his home, his modest home, and sino. It was on
a street called Margate. I called it the Mecca on Margate.
I bet you know. I was there probably fifty sixty times,
and I would try to bring a different person with
me every time that I came so they could experience
(07:48):
what it was like just to have a conversation with
this man who was just full of so much life
and wisdom and goodness. And he was a great listener.
I always admired that too, like all he wanted to
do is hear him tell stories, and he would be
asking us questions and he never you know, man of faith.
But he didn't beat you over the head with that.
(08:09):
He just if you brought it up, he would be
happy to talk about it. I was just struck by
how gracious and humble and grounded you walk into his place,
and it was like a shrine to his two favorite
people in life, Abraham Lincoln and mother Teresa. Those were
his role models, the people he admired the most. I
(08:30):
do a tribute to him in my class, and Jason
probably remembers this called our weakly wooden or I do
a observation or reflection about life basketball. Sometimes it's sports related,
and most of the time it's just about life. You know.
He says about being more concerned with your character than
your reputation. Characters, who you really are, reputations what people
(08:51):
think you are. And I make sure I use that
one on the first night of class, because I think
college students are pressured in so many ways to fit in,
to stand out, get likes, get follows, and and that's
all understandable and human nature to be liked and admired things,
but to be more concerned, it's sort of like bringing
(09:13):
you back a little bit to you know, the essence
of who we really are, which is your character, and
develop that. If that's your foundation, if that's if that's
your core. The other stuff comes from that, But it
comes back to your core, and that's what will drive you.
That's what will really cause you to have.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
You saying you're you're obviously a great teacher, because even
just peppering the language and for folks listening, I mean
peppering the language with the pressure to get likes. I
mean that's like a real pressure in the zeitgeist of
the modern American under thirty five year old. Like it's
it's very real, and it's starting so horribly young, So
(09:55):
that that's really really strong what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
With the all the advantages, the incredible advantages that technology
has brought us, and having a smartphone, we take it,
you know, we take it everywhere. It's our connection to
the world. It's amazing. But along the way, you know,
again you talk, you know, you mentioned the pressure and
just sometimes you're trying to you're trying to be an influencer. Well,
(10:20):
that means you've got to have people that follow you
and that say you're you know, you're amazing and doing
these things, and along the way they'll rip you to shreds.
You know, how do you come to grips with that?
I feel like Coach's Coach Wooden's messages are so simple.
Make each day your masterpiece. Drink deeply from good books,
just things if you thought about. And I tell the students, look,
(10:41):
not every one of the ones I'm going to say
will resonate with you, but I hope if you will,
And I hope that maybe some of those will stick
with you and maybe resonate later. They'll they'll be in
your consciousness somewhere and then maybe they'll kick in. You'll remember,
because I've had feedback to that effect. One student told
me that every week the Weekly wouldn't she would send
it on to her high school sister at home as
(11:03):
something just to remind her of core values and principles
to keep in mind. So I think Coach Wooden' is
he keeps on giving. And I told him once, I said,
did you ever think when your dad was sharing some
of his reflections with you, and you're a kid and
growing up on a farm in Midwest and Indiana nineteen twenties.
(11:25):
Things you're saying that you talk about with your dad
would impact people around the world today in the twenty
first century. And typical coach when he goes, think my
dad would be pleased.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That was it.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That's kind of who he was. The other one that
I want to share too for your audience I think
is important is he always had a problem with the
word overachiever. And I love that. I tell my class,
help me stamp that word out. He said, how can
you achieve? Be above your level of success? If you
achieve something, it's because you were able to achieve it.
(11:57):
And so I tell my students again, if any of
you grow up to be President of the United States,
president of a Fortune five hundred company, whatever it is,
serving your community at the highest level, I said, you
didn't over achieve. You achieved what you were capable of achieving.
Helped me stamp out the use of the word. You
know in sports, that gritty group of overachievers. Really, really
(12:19):
what it's about is the expectations for that team were lower,
but that's on you. That's not on me. We achieved
what we were capable of achieving. Now, if you have
a you know, in a steroid area, yeah, there may
be times where, yeah, you went above what you should
have because it was artificially in hand. That's that's about. Otherwise,
it's always like we have this like, well, you achieved more,
(12:41):
you were an over No. No, I exceeded your expectations,
and that's on you. I did what I was capable
of doing, and I want the students to know that.
So that was Coach Wooden saying that word. You know,
that word bothers me, and I was like, yeah, it
bothers me too, And.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I think about, well, I love all of that, and
it makes me happy that you're one of the nine
hundred plus folks who are voting on the Heisman Trophy
every year, because clearly you come at it from a
perspective that I think a lot of us do. Because
I was just having this conversation we got to start
talking about technology, but I'm just having a conversation about
how the future of sports with all this money that's
(13:17):
being thrown around for college athletes, it's crazy and it's
I don't even know how you even start to regulate
it or how you start to even say that education
matters when they're getting insane. And I gotta be honest,
I don't really like to take positions. I'm not saying
that they should make nothing. But it's wild.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah it's wild. But I just think I come back
to this line. I use this. It's a disruption. It's
not destruction.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
It's a disruption, and said, I love that word disruptor disruption.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, the system was, it was out of whack. But
on the side of management and the administration. So long
as as the media rights money has just gone crazy
and hit into the billions, there's just no good reason
that athletes shouldn't share.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
I just had naha moment through the word disruption and
system that just triggered for me was well, then stop
trying to apply Kevin me, like, stop thinking about this
as if it's you know, the president of a university
and the dean of a school wanting their kid to
go to math class, like it stop. You know that
(14:32):
might have been true fifty years ago, but that's not
that's the wrong system. This is a business, and yeah,
the stars of the industry should get some revenue for sure.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah, what we're seeing, Kevin, is that what I call
the professionalization of couds. And look, there was a time
when the Olympics were all amateur. We sent our top
college players to compete in the Olympics, and it would
be kind of fun because you'd see these college play
basketball players that you were used to seeing and were
stars together. The eighty four team with Michael Jordan amazing. Well,
(15:05):
the other countries were sending essentially their pro teams because
they don't have a college system likely do. That's not fair.
So at some point they said, let's just send the
best players in your country and everybody's country. Let's just
send the best players, and you know what we found.
I think it's kind of cool to see Lebron James
and Steph Curry at the front of a boat shooting
(15:26):
down the Senn River at waving American flags like they're
experiencing something they didn't expect it. And NFL players will
do that in flag football in twenty twenty eight. So
there was a time when that seemed crazy. It was
about amateur sports, our olympians, and now it's open to
professionals and college sports is undergoing that transformation. Very few
(15:51):
were getting rich. Many have deals, but the stars are
the ones that we typically hear about. And you say, well,
how is that working in the locker room with players
that are making X amount, usually the quarterback or start
running back or receiver. I don't know how did it
work out in the Patriots locker room with Tom Brady
making he was making and a backup offensive line lineman
(16:13):
making what he I mean you, I've never been as
worried about that it works out. But we're at a
time when your alma mater, Penn State, fires its coach.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And you got fifty million dollars.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
So think about that. You got fired, but fired not
even halfway through the season. That never happened in college sports, correct,
But it's happening now.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
So as you game this out, I'm an American who
subscribes to the ideology that I do believe. I was disgusted,
to be blunt to use the word at how much
coach Franklin got at a time, especially with Penn State,
when they shut down branch campuses that year, and then
the president of the university gets a one point four
million dollar race. That is something that in the era
(16:54):
of income inequality. I don't care if you're a Republican
or a Democrat, and I'm out of politics, thank god.
But it doesn't register for you know, a guy like me.
So what effect will it happen? Maybe I'm wrong, Maybe
you've got it because I would have a different perspective
if I looked at it through the prism of well
shareholder value, board of directors. They're on Wall Street. You know.
(17:16):
If I think of it like that, I can get
to where you're the sandbox that you're in. But when
I think of it as no coach Wooded, you know,
this is like principle, it's hard work, you know, show
up early for practice. There's no name on the back
of my jersey. Like, when I think of it like that,
I'm like, what is happening to the future of college sports?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
It's evolving for sure. Again, I think it's a disruption.
I don't think it's destruction. Him in his last year
at UCLA, the season it ended in nineteen seventy five,
when UCLA won it's a tenth NCAA championship under coach
Would He made thirty two, five hundred dollars and that
was just the way things work at the end. As
(17:58):
time went on, he stayed grounded to principles. They were
writing him blank checks. Whatever you would like to fill
in to come and share your wisdom, you tell us
the amount. So he was just patient and he kind
of stuck to his principles stubbornly at some times, but
he did and it paid off for him in many,
many other ways. But we have this amount of money.
(18:21):
You know, we're talking about schools having a private equity
come in and being involved in athletic departments. That's obviously
a hot topic right now. It's just there are people
with the kind of companies, with the kind of wealth
that they want to be involved and connected to sports.
College sports sports is still a real, live, immersive experience
(18:43):
and brings us the passion that we see every week
in stadiums and arenas, and there's nothing like it.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Do you think that within the future, because of the
payment injecting into college sports, do you think it's gonna
make it somehow worse for high school athletes?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Like?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
How does this change high school athletes? How does this
change recruitment academies in middle school, in elementary school. I mean,
you look at the football clubs soccer clubs, football clubs Europe,
for example, and the academy's over there. But how does
this change when when so much money is on the line,
private equities get involved. How does this change youth sports?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
That's a great question, Kevin, and I don't know. It's
trickling down, There's no question it's trickling down. And the
and the high schools that play at the really high
level in some of the big cities and and and
have the biggest football leagues California and Texas, Florida, Ohio,
those places. I mean, you know, it's there will be
(19:39):
a premium still at at acquiring talent. It's just it's
going to get younger and younger. I think we don't
have the regulations, we don't have the guardrails set up
at every level. I think that's coming in some form. Again,
it won't involve every player. It it will involve some
you know, difference maker players. It will certainly will not
(19:59):
get to every high school throughout America anything like that,
So keep that in mind.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well, coach wouldn't want college athletes to be paid.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I think it would have been hard for him to understand,
given how he was brought up in the system and
how it worked for him, and it's worked for a
lot of people, most people. I think most college athletes
probably had good experiences, regardless of whether they became stars
in college, but good experiences to prepare them for life
(20:29):
after college. I think it's just it's just a different model.
And I think coach would have he would have had
to get used to doing something that would have been
difficult for him, which is the idea of players are
on a payroll, because he would have talked about what
about the education, what about the value of the education.
(20:49):
And that's the challenge that the players now have to
make sure that you're not overlooking what will help, what
will stay with you for the rest of your life
and help guide you down a career path. And I
talk to athletes about this, like stay is disciplined in
the classroom as you do on a practice field or
court or pool, because it's still impactful and even if
(21:13):
you have a pro career.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
At the old school, even here. And I can't help it.
I have to own my bias because I think people
can sniff through when you but like for me, it's
hearing you talk. I'm like, I'm just thinking to myself.
They're employees. They're not athletic. They're employees. They're performers. They're
entertainers now and student When millions of dollars are on
(21:34):
the line, I mean, it's like asking a Hollywood starlet
to be blunt with you to get a college degree.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I mean, what are millions of dollars on the line
for a volleyball player.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
What's fascinating is it's a microcosm of capitalism. Because I'm
a capitalist. I love capitalism with a conscience, and I
love the American dream and I still believe in it,
and it should be modernized. And maybe this is, in
its own unique way, a modernization and a re update,
a reboot of the system. So I'm gonna hold my
(22:07):
fire and I am willing to change my mind and evolve,
but I do struggle with it, if I'm being truthful.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I just remember Kevin that that people had the same
issue when free agency came to pro sports. Fair what
like people in the seventies like they love the Dodgers
infield of Steve Garvey, Davey Lopes, Bill Russell, and Ron
say they stayed together for I think it was eight
full seasons and they love that because people love things
they can count on in sports, just like little kids
(22:36):
like certain things they have to have they count on,
and it was like you could count on that and
it was great, But that wasn't fair to those players
that they didn't have a choice at some point of
where they played, and it was hard for people to
get used to. No, I'm not gonna I'm gonna hold out,
and I don't you know, it's not I'm not being
fairly compensated. I'm gonna go somewhere else, and it's kind
(23:01):
of my right.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Like what, I am very torn on this. I'm gonna
just come out like I totally see both sides of this,
and I have I think both sides make very strong arguments.
So I'm going to say, you know, not that my
vote matters at all, doesn't at all, but for what
it's worth, my own my own evolution of thinking. Thank
you so much. Yeah, well, thank you so much. Jeff Felonser,
he is awesome. Thank you to producer Jason for booking him.
(23:24):
He teaches at USC. I'm just so incredibly grateful. Thank
you so much.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
My pleasure
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