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July 14, 2022 41 mins

Senator Turner speaks with historian, educator, and author who is currently an Adjunct History Professor at Cuyahoga Community College, Sherlynn Allen-Harris.  They take a moment to discuss how the status quo and legislators have the power to encourage change instead of enforce the unbalanced racial power structures that affect all communities, especially the Black community. Senator Turner and Sherlynn lift up the fact that we must not allow uncomfortably distract us from teaching about our country’s history - the ugly and not so cute. With talks of regression, Sherlynn lays out how capitalism and the desire for profit plays a significant role in our society.

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Turn Everything. Welcome to Hello Somebody, a production of The

(00:28):
Black Effect Podcast Network and I Heart Media. Where we
rage against the machine, where we raise our voices against
injustice and stand up for justice. Where we embrace hope
and joy with an optimism for a bright or more
justus future. Each week I'll be dropping knowledge, whether it's

(00:49):
a solo episode from me or a hearty discussion with
esteem guests doing great things in spaces and places of politics, entertainment,
social justice, and beyond. We get real, baby, I mean
really real. We get honest. We get up close and
personal for you, yes, you, because everybody is somebody. Before

(01:16):
we begin, I want to give a special shout out
to my team, Thank you, Sam, Tiffany, Sam and the
team over at Good Jujuic Studios, Erica, England, Pepper Chambers,
the Hot One, and my social media team. Welcome to
this week's episode of Hello Somebody. I hope everybody is

(01:39):
doing okay. I know a lot is going on in
this country and also in this world. It is hard
to keep up, but we still gotta push your head
and try to make sure that we are doing what
we can to be optimal for ourselves and for our family.
While at the same time recognizing that a lot of
s H I T is hitting the fans. I'm gonna

(02:00):
try to be as pag as I can today, y'all.
I'm just so full. I'm excited though about today's show.
So for those of you who are regular listeners, thank
you so much for being on the Hello somebody journey
with me, And for those of you who are joining
us for the very very very first time, welcome to
the show. So I have with me today one of

(02:21):
my dearest friends in the world. We met at Cleveland
State University in graduate school and we've been rocking for
almost thirty years now. She frowning over there, like, don't
don't say the numbers, don't say the number. It's true
and I'm proud of it. I'm proud of it. But

(02:41):
none other than historian Professor Extraordinaire Sherlan Alan Harris, and
she is an educator. We talked together at Cuyahoga Community College.
She is an adjunct history professor there on the Metro
campus that we love so very much, and her specialty
these are African and African American history as well as

(03:03):
African American women's history. And Professor Allen Harris earned her
undergraduate and graduate degrees from the Cleveland State University. We
were rocking together then, and our graduate program, our master's
program together, we were teaching assistants. Lord have mercy. That
seems like many many moons ago. We came up the

(03:24):
ranks together in academia. And previously she taught history, political science,
and street law for more than twenty years in the
Cleveland Metropolitan School District. Certainly a master teacher when she
was at John Hay in particular. Well also, I mean
I came there to speak to some of her classes
and participate in programs, and also when she taught at
Elliott Middle School. I mean, we're kicking it all, you know,

(03:48):
it's been quite a journey. Professor Allen Harris is the
immediate past President of the African American Archives Auxiliary of
the Western Reserve Historical Society. In addition to writing freelance
and scholarly articles, she is a published author of a
book of historical fiction entitle Under the Same Moon. Maybe

(04:10):
y'all got to get that book. It is so so
good Under the Same Moon. Professor Harris, welcome to the show.
And where can people get under the same Moon? If
they wanted, Well, thank you. My friend. Under the same
Moon is under limited publication at this time. It's on Amazon,
you know, and then there's some other outlets it's on.
But it did come out in two thousand and fourteen. Yeah,

(04:33):
it's still there though some places even get a free download.
You might have to reboot that. You know, it's possible,
do a reboot on that. It's really really good. If
you get a chance to picking up, please do so
so everyone knows that I'm an educator too, and to
have you and I together is such a beautiful thing.

(04:55):
Education is certainly a foundational point for this country. It
is a foundation a point without a doubt for African
American people, and it is something that we can do
all of our lives, you know, this whole notion that
people should be lifelong learners. And definitely with the advent
of the World Wide Web and Google is a verb,

(05:17):
YouTube is a verb. There's really no reason Sherland for
anybody to not know what it is they really want
to know. Although as academics we will say, you know,
really look deeply at the source, especially if it's on
the academic side, but just in general for general knowledge,
googling and YouTube and it's really good. I have attended
YouTube University on a number of occasions to learn how

(05:38):
to do some things for me too. Absolutely YouTube University. Baby,
you heard it here first, so you know, and I
certainly have met along this journey, Sherlin, some of the
most brilliant, care and thoughtful leaders in the world of
education and history. And I gotta say you are one
of those. Oh, thank you, my friend, my sister. It's true.

(06:03):
As you know, it's us, it's us. Okay, So let's
talk about We're gonna talk about a lot of issues,
but we also talk about the film masters. We'll talk
about that, but first let's kind of get started with
why did you become an educator? I want people to
get to know you a little better before we dive
into our subject for this episode. So what led you?

(06:26):
What drew you to the world of academia. Well, I
don't want to get into a long story like that.
I'm not one that always knew I wanted to be
an educator when I was a kid. Matter of fact,
I was trying not to finish college at one time, okay,
and then my life's journey said no, you gotta do this.

(06:46):
You have to do that. I've always had an interest
in history, so I used to when I was a teen,
I read those historical novels, love novels and romances, and
they had a lot of history there that just drew
me into it. And in my work travels, I began
to work with populations of people who, you know, had
a history that was very interesting. We had to get

(07:07):
personal documents from them, like their family Bibles, which are
historical documents in and of themselves, and so, you know,
I just said, you know, I'm a historian, and what
can I do with this? And I said, I know
what I can do. I think I can teach this
because I love it so much. And that's what drew
me into it. And it was the best decision I

(07:28):
could have ever made in my life. I would never
have met Senator Turner if I hadn't done that. And
some of the people that have been in my life
that have changed my life so tremendously, Nina has been
one person that has done that. My former students who
are still a part of my life today, I really
begin to know that that was my purpose in life,
was to teach and to disseminate what I understood. Now,

(07:52):
I've always been People call me radical, you know, I've
always been that, and I've always spoke out and spoke up.
So my mother thought I should have been a lawyer
because she told me, I'm speaking up for everybody. But
that's it. And you know, my my journey is not over,
you know, just it's always one good thing after another
because that is my purpose. So definitely know the journey

(08:13):
is far from over. And it is always refreshing to
talk to someone that is in their vocation, not just
a job, but the thing that gets you up every morning.
Your ministry. I call it a ministry. I believe when
people are truly doing what they were destined to do,
they are in their ministry and their many ministries. And

(08:34):
it's not just the ministry. From a religious standpoint. Teaching
is a ministry. Politics is a ministry, even though these
mo fols is messing it up. But when you find
that thing that that gives you life every day that
you would do even for free, you are definitely in
your calling and in your purpose, and you are an
extraordinary educator. I've had the opportunity to be in your

(08:56):
presence so many a time when you were teaching from
high school students to college, and I still marvel every
time as if it's the first time, because you are
really extraordinary at what you do, and it is quite
apparent that teaching is your calling. Certainly, Definitely, thank you
so much. No, you're welcome. Sometimes, especially women and Black women,

(09:20):
we just don't say thank you when people compliment us. Yeah,
we gotta just learn to say thank you. And that's
a message for anybody everybody, not just you know, Black people,
but I just find it, particularly for black women. If
somebody gives you a compliment, you don't have to rationalize it,
you know. We rationalt just say thank you, I am
all that I received that, sometimes myself saying I received that,

(09:43):
you know, because sometimes it's maybe in your spirit, because
you gotta practice it just by saying I received that
or thank you and just receiving it and keep it moving.
Just accepted, you know, because as historians of African American history,
we know that it is part of our DNA. Not
accepting compliments for ourselves or our children was a survival mechanism,

(10:07):
you know, because doing the Great Bondage, our children could
be taken away from us if they were seeing as
smart and able and good and all those kinds of things.
So we say, oh, that's not my much. You should
see him at home. He's not all that, you know,
he's acting this way or whatever it might be. We
wanted to take the spotlight off our children, especially doing
those times, and those things have been transferred transgenerationally to

(10:30):
where we are today. So we have to learn to
see that, yes we are good people, we're learning individuals,
and accept those compliments for ourselves. That's exactly right. We
are receive it. Yes, we are receiving those things. So

(10:55):
why black history? Why talk about the black experience? I
recall one of my deans at Kiho Community College, and
I had somebody in my life too that kind of
put down the fact that I majored in you know,
we you and I both majored in American history, but
we have specialties in black history. And at that time,
I think my dean he just didn't see a path. Well,

(11:18):
both of these people, my dean at Kayho Community College
at the time and then this other person did not
see how I can monetize you know, that's interesting and
particularly history in itself. I had someone in probably one
of our cohort classes that said that his father said

(11:38):
to him, what are you gonna do with this degree
in history? You're gonna open a history store, you know, right,
But it's in the history of who I am and
who we are as the people, is just in my
being at the molecular level. And so I've always always
I can't think of a time when I didn't think
in terms of at in American history or black history,

(12:02):
black studies, and you know, even when my teach American history,
you cannot separate the history of black people from American history.
You just cannot do it. So that has always I've
always been fiercely proud of who I am, in my hair,
my everything about myself. I've always been pretty much proud

(12:22):
about that, and so it just it was the very
next step to want to teach about African American history,
and not just African American, but African history, and so
it was a natural for me. Definitely about you, Yeah,
for me, I don't know, it just kind of I
love stories and I loved learning about us. And it

(12:43):
was definitely Dr Dorothy Salem, who was retired from Cuyahoga
Community College. He was one of my very first He
was my very first professor that I ever had to
teach Black history. Certainly when I was in high school,
there was not a premium put on at that age,
you know, teaching me and my peers black history was

(13:04):
almost like it was an afterthought. Sherland. It still is
that even to this day in some spaces. But for
you and I, African American history is central to America's history.
Is not an afterthought. It's not a footnote. It is
the note, it is the beat, it is the vibe, baby,
because this nation would not be a hedge of my

(13:25):
nation without us. And even though they did it in
one of the most corrupting, inhumane ways known to humanity,
the fact that the matter is United States is what
it is today from an economic standpoint because of the forced,
free labor that our ancestors performed on this soil. But

(13:45):
going back to Dr Dorothy Salem, Yeah, and just when
I've saw this blonde haired white woman in front of
the class, and in those days the schedules were still
on paper. You can I get a witness. Hopefully we
got some witnesses. And I'm looking at the schedule and
looking at this woman, and I just knew I was
in the wrong class. Either I was in the wrong

(14:06):
class and she was in the wrong class, because there's
no way a white woman can teach Black history. But
I was so wrong. She opened my eyes in so
many ways, and is the reason why I totally went
forward with having that expertise in African American history, because
she centered the history of black people, Africans and then

(14:28):
their American descendants many generations down the line, and that
forever changed my life, and I was able to block
out the naysayers about, you know how, you're gonna monetize
this and it's not worthy. And this was coming from
black people because we can be just as brainwashed, because
we were socialized in America that has constantly told us,

(14:48):
both covertly and overtly, that the history of our people
is a footnote, it doesn't matter, it's irrelevant to the
development of humanity itself in the broader context of the
world and certainly of America, when as I said before,
we the main note. Your thoughts on that right, absolutely,
you may know, and you're right, You're so right. I've

(15:09):
had to fight through my educational experience with my students,
with some of their parents, you know, saying why why
do we have to learn black history in your class
every day? Why do you turn you know, all your
classes into a black history lessons? And then the first
thing I'm saying is you're black every day, and you
know do you take time off in black right? You
know you do that? Me? No, you know you know?

(15:31):
And then't even thinking about this movie master that we're
going to discuss a little bit of I think that, um,
you know, my students have said, well, you know, we
gotta be around everybody. You know, we need to learn
how to be around everybody. We don't need to just
learn how to be around black people. So those are
my biggest struggles with some of my students. And I said, no,
but you need to learn that you are valuable, that

(15:52):
you matter. You need to dis learn the things that
you have learned, deconstruct your construction exactly. Those are something
destroy was. I've even had an administrator tell me in
middle school, well, he was evaluating me today that I
was doing, um, the section on enslavement, and he told
me later on that I made the kids feel uncomfortable

(16:16):
because we were talking about that. Because you can imagine
the middle school textbook with about three paragraphs on enslavement
and so of course I'm going to expand on it,
and I did, and when he spoke to me about it,
he said, well, you really made the kids feel uncomfortable.
And I asked him, I said, should I have lied
to them? Would you have me? Lie? So I said,

(16:37):
I'm not gonna do that. He was uncomfortable, So he was.
He was definitely uncomfortable. But I think I really hit
my stride though, when I was able to get into
high school and I was able to design my lessons
and I was basically the go to black person in
the school for programs, Black History Month, Klansa, and everything else.

(17:01):
So I had a freedom there in that school to
be able to deal with students and I deet and
I had not just black students that John Hay School
of Architecture and Design. By the way, I um had
a nice, young, lady like student and she said to me,
Miss Allen, here is why why are we always talking

(17:21):
about race things? And her name is Emily. I said, Emily,
I said, remember at the beginning of the class, when
we talked about the U. S Constitution, we talked about
the Bill of Rights, and we talked about the Preamble
to the Constitution and said, we the people in order
to form a more perfect union, and she said, yes,
I remember that. I said, do we have a perfect union?

(17:41):
She said no, we don't have a perfect union, Miss
Allen heres And I said, well, that's why we talked
about raceel and she said, I understand, so, but h
and we don't have And as a matter of fact,
we're regressing. That is frightening. It is. I mean, while
we're on the topic, I mean, I know that we're
get into masters. If you want to delve into some

(18:03):
of the ways that you see us regressing as a nation,
definitely feel free to jump on in that. Well, it's
just that our legislators are people, are policy makers. You know,
they have put a strangle hold on the we the
people part of it, and it's we the corporation, them
the corporation, the corporate States of America is what we're

(18:24):
going to And then you know, trying to hold onto
that capitalist profit motive just drives people to all kinds
of craziness. And that's that's where we are now. And
they even to have to talk about critical race theory
that's not being taught in any lower level classrooms at all.
And what critical race theory says is that in a

(18:46):
matter of fact, it was Dr Derek Bell at Harvard
that put forth that theory and another colleague of his,
and the idea that certain things happen and there's a
racial uh impact on what happens in the society, what
happened according to the zip code where you live, according
to your health, according to your life expectancy, according to

(19:06):
all those factors that identify what a good life should be,
and that those racial factors for that, and those are
policymakers that have done that. And over the course of you,
I would say, since the end of reconstruction, Yeah, and
and reconstruction ended abruptly because a political deal was cut

(19:27):
at the expensive black folks. Hello, somebody on that we
could certainly, I mean that that's a whole show. That's
a whole show in the end and of itself. But
if we look at that and say that the strides
that well, actually, after Plessy versus Ferguson in everything has

(19:47):
been designed purposely and it's always conservatives, there needs to
be another term because conservatism doesn't fit, in my opinion,
with white racism. Yeah, have a word, but it definitely
would be too provocative force coming in my mind right now.
But I hear you go ahead, I cut you off. So, yeah,

(20:09):
so getting here and then here we are. You know,
we feel like, you know, we've made some strides. And
really the whole idea was for the powers that be
to reverse reconstruction altogether, reverse voting, reverse whatever could be
done to put the power back in the hands of
white racist men period, keep the status quo. Yeah, so,

(20:33):
and so here we are, you know, but I'm not afraid.
I Am not going to lie in anybody's classroom. I'm
gonna teach what I teach. It is not critical race theory.
They just don't want black history talk. That's what it is.
That is, or they want to say that, well, civil
War had nothing to do with slavery, you know, these
were involuntary immigrants or something like that. You're coming up

(20:55):
with God of money. So there's a lot of work
to be done, a lot of to be done. And
I will say too that I never had any students
in my class, any white student in my class, that
said that they felt guilty or bad because of what
they heard, what they learned. They were angry that they
had never learned it, and they were angry at the
injustices period. That's what they were angry at. They were

(21:16):
never like, oh my god, you make me feel so bad.
And the people who are pushing this, like Governor de
Santists in Florida and others of the GOP on the
federal level, they know it. They know it. See this
is about disempowerment because to your point about your wife
students and your black students, I'm sure learning this knowledge
felt empowered. Their minds are opened and so now they're

(21:39):
gonna think a different way, They're gonna move a different way,
and hopefully it enlightens them so much that they move
with a critical eye towards being anti racists and making
the world a better place. I mean, you and I
are extraordinarily good, especially when we're teaching high school students.
Is we even in history, but also we've been in life,

(21:59):
learn elearnings, doing a little mama ring. I just made
that word up, but me and Mama's to some folks
in the classroom. I love to teach my high tech
academy students and try to see because maybe I could
Mama you now you and the teen I can Mama
you in this classroom as well as teach you about
certain aspects of America's history. And it was just a

(22:20):
beautiful thing to me. Sheryland. That is what these so
called leaders fear the most is that the people will
band together, have a strong understanding and appreciation for one another.
And if we band together, that means we're gonna fight together,
we're gonna love together, we're gonna push together. And the
elites of this world they don't want that. And you

(22:42):
know it's a historian, you and I have talked to
think about the different rebellions, think about the differences how
the power class, the elites, even during slavery, separated the
indentured servants from the enslaved because they didn't want us
to have a knowledge of each other suffering, so that

(23:02):
then we would come together and defeat there behind right right,
not only just separating, but this whole idea of creating
this idea that you know, one group is bad, say
for whatever reason, if your movements are prescribed and limited,
I don't care if you worked in the house or

(23:23):
wherever you were, you still were unfree. You had the
same situation. And it's it was even worse for those
that worked in the house. It was they the women
were subject to rape. Actually, revolution could be planned in
those in those fields, that in the psychological damage. And
I'm glad you know, Sherltte Let's let's stay right there.
I know there's a famous quote by Minister Malcolm X

(23:44):
well he tells the story about the difference between the
house slave and the field slave. Even Minister Malcolm did
not get that right. And as much as you know,
I love Minister Malcolm X, the portrayal of the house
slave or some how the enslaved person that was gonna
sell out their people more readily than anybody else, that

(24:05):
is a misnomer to the point that you just made
now were there are some incidences, Absolutely, people get caught
up and if that's all that you know, But to
be an enslaved person in the master's house was much
harder because you didn't get any reprieve to yourself. The
wet nurses, you know, they had to sleep on the

(24:25):
floor of the room, They had to have those babies
at all times, they had to suckle those babies. You know,
black women breast fed America. That makes me angry as hell,
just too even so, and then the psychological not being
able to get a moment to yourself. Mean both whether
you were in the field or in the house, there
was psychological trauma to being enslaved, but the house enslaved

(24:46):
person did not get a moment's rest. Now, and you're right,
revolution definitely was played in the field, but also some
revolutionary things happened in the house, because baby, don't mess
with the person that's cooking your food. I'm just gonna
leave that. That's right. Yeah, there's a story and since
I can't really think of it right now, but I
think it happened in New Orleans. Whether this woman was

(25:07):
enslaved in the house, and she was, she wound up
killing the entire family in that house, and she went
on trial for and of course you know she had
to suffer. Was that Ccilia the slave? No, No, that's
now Silius. That's a whole the book that I'm still
using in the African American women's history class. We're talking
about that in a second. But this woman is a
story of her having ground up glass and putting it

(25:31):
into the food to you know, eventually destroyed the digestive
system and everything of those in the house. And I
think she finally confessed it. So I would have to
do some more research on that, because this has been
years ago when I heard about that one. But the
book that I'm using, well, I was using uh Cilia
the Slave, which was a true story of the woman
who killed her soul called master. She bludgeoned him, put

(25:55):
him in the fire in her heart. But she didn't
do this by herself, but she claimed that she did
it all by herself. It was a strike at enslavement
and the idea of slavery, and it took place in Missouri.
And so during that time was you know, the whole
the Civil War before the Civil War, and people were
afraid of the people that they were enslaving. Yes, they

(26:18):
should have. You gotta be stressed out every day he's
trying to hold these people in bondage because you know, people,
the stories that we have not heard about are the
ones that I really if I had an opportunity to
know the stories that we know. The stories we've heard
of we know about sister Harriet Tubman, but there were
other stories. Well, people were running away, they were killing

(26:38):
their masters. Our ancestors led our own freedom struggle, okay,
and so something had to be done about it. And
I'm not trying to take away from any of the
abolitionists of the work that they did, because they put
their lives on the line as well. But the black
folks who needed to be free led their own freedom struggle.

(26:59):
And that's an important point to center black people, black people,
free black people. Now, did we have some co conspirators
in our some of our white sisters and brothers who
are right there barside, like John Brown, Yes, But black
people are responsible for their own liberation. We're the center
of that liberation. And and people like Frederick Douglas, he

(27:19):
was a regular consultant with Abraham Lincoln. He said, what
do your people want? This is what we want. We
want freedom. They want freedom, they want land, They want
equal opportunities, and want to be you know, independent and
be able to pass on wealth to their children as well,
you know, do the same things that any normal person
wants to do. That's that's what our people want. So

(27:40):
they were putting all kinds of messages in that man's ears.
And we know what happened at that Mencipatient Proclamation was
a war tactic and to try to bring the Confederacy around.
I mean it's it's so complex, you know, it is
not what our people like to think. And I mean
we we we like a romantic kind of sounding story,

(28:00):
like people in their churches and watch night and Midnight,
and you know it's like the bells ringing, the trumpets sound,
and paper signed and all the gates fly over and
that kind of thing. We know that didn't right, okay,
but you know, but because people in the surrounding states
and in those border states were not, that's it. And

(28:21):
that political tactic from a tactician standpoint is the slaves
in the border states like Maryland, those enslaved people were
not freed by the mass paced Proclamation. They were allowed
to keep their enslaved people because that was a for
the sake of the war tactically, the North needed those

(28:43):
border states to be on their side. I put in
air quotes also the mass based Proclamation eighteen sixty three.
The eleven states that seeded the Union, starting with that
damn South Carolina. Don't get me started on South Carolina.
Even right now, South Carolina got black leader, is that?
Don't lord? Let me stay on topic. The leven states

(29:04):
that seated the Union created their own government. Professor Harris.
They had their own government, so you can't then turn
around and tell another government what to do. That's another
reason why. So we're not saying that the Massi Patient
Proclamation was not a good tactic. It was, but it
was not pure in its intentions, and very few things are.

(29:28):
In other words, we can definitely lift up President Abraham Lincoln,
but also tell the whole story. And there are many
quotes with President Abraham Lincoln saying that he had never
intended for blacks and whites to be equal, and if
he had his preference, the white man would always be
above the black man. Now I'm paraphrasing here, but you
can just go on back. We believed in shipping our
butts on back to Africa, even though by that time

(29:51):
the many layer generations that had been here. There is
no damn going back to Africa because we were never
there generationally. You know, once are African four mothers and forefathers. Yes,
but when they started producing offspring on this damn, so
there was no go back to Africa. But he was parting.
He supported that. He supported that, and also that other

(30:15):
paraphrase that he said that if he could keep the
union together, that was his home idea that he wanted
the union together and if he could do it by
freeing no insulation, he would do that too. And to
the idea, I'm glad you brought up though, that they
were not born in Africa. There, it's true, we were
not born in Africa, but Africa was born in us,
because that's why we have the drive that we have

(30:38):
to hold on and find things, to find our roots
and our ethnic groups in Africa and that kind of thing.
So it was born in up. The other thing that
the emancipatient proformation did was said that it gave those
that were running away more wherewithal to go behind union lines,
find refuge behind the union lines, which they had already

(31:00):
been doing that anyway before the proclamation. And so that's it. Well,
now we can get the word we can do this. Yeah,
we'll definitely do another show on the reconstruction and all
of that good stuff, because we really, we're feeling it,
we really are. Another reason why we majored in it.
We studied it because it is vibrant, it is complex,

(31:21):
it is exciting, it is depressing at times, it's empowering,
but just reliving this it's empowering and yes, reliving it
every single semester. You know, that's why I'm always ready
to fight always. Let's go on to Master the film.

(31:45):
We had a quick conversation about that when we discovered
that we both watched the show. It is airing right
now on Prime Video. Master came out this year and
it really shows in a very creative way. It's a
really a discussion about microaggressions that black people have to face,

(32:09):
especially black people in a professional class of work. And
it's suspenseful, you know, I would call it a suspense
on the edge of your seat. You can't not on
the edge of your seat in terms that it's scary,
But it's the type of movie that you have to watch.
You can't multitask while you're watching it because each seeing
builds on the next, builds on the next, and builds

(32:30):
on the next. I enjoyed it so very much. Its
stars Regina Hall is the lead actress, and it was
very very well done. So you want to go into
it a little bit, yeah, a little bit. I don't
want to be a spoiler. Yeah, yeah, let's not be
a spoiler, that's right, Yeah, I don't want to be spoiler.
But it looks at the challenges of three black women

(32:54):
as they navigate higher education, as they navigate academia to
as professors and one as a student, and it builds
itself as like a horror, but it's not really a horror.
If anything is the horror is the persistence of white
racist There's a lot of symbolism in there. There's a
lot of things I think people can relate to. The

(33:16):
microaggressions will start at the beginning, you know, and kind
of just populate the movie throughout, and it kind of
tell gives you this notion that racism is here and
it's not going anywhere. You know, it's died in the
wool in American bones, and that this country's bones has
died in no matter what you do, no matter how

(33:38):
many offices of diversity, inclusion and equity you create, you're
still dealing with those issues. And I would say that
with the movie kind of highlights for me is this
idea of managing people rather than valuing people as we
have seen. I mean, it's the idea that these people

(34:00):
aren't going anywhere. We had hoped that, you know, they
would be inferior and die off after the period of enslavement,
but that didn't happen. You know, if our ancestors and
just even one of them survived the belly and they
did of a slaveship, and we have them to thank
for being here. And so we have no business thinking
that we're supposed to get up. We had we our

(34:22):
ancestors went through the worst that they did. But anyway,
so the idea that you're going to manage these people
and you're going to play smoking mirrors with them, and
I don't mean to step on any toes, but you know,
being in higher education myself, many times the public universities,
colleges and universities have to have some type of diversity

(34:45):
and inclusion and equity, and there's certain things that they
can do. They can you know, the equitable thing to
do would be to hire professors and retain them in
those classrooms. But what I have seen is that you
have the Office of Diversity and Equity and Inclusion and
they have speakers, and they have somebody that wrote a book,

(35:07):
and they satisfy that piece of being a public college
and having to do this, and they they satisfy it
in a number of ways that don't include dealing with
the real issues, which is the equity for black folks.
And it's a very superficial way. It's this sup to
deal with diversity and inclusion. So, since we're not gonna

(35:27):
be spoilers, the whole theme of that movie is microaggressions, tokenism.
You know, we can think of these different diversification your
self worth. How much of yourself are you gonna give
up to have X y Z position, whether that is
being the master of the college or being a student

(35:51):
that is pursuing a degree, but you are surrounded mainly
with white students. How much of yourself are you going
to give up to be in those circles? And as
you laid out to professors are being followed or highlighted
in this in this movie again on prime video and
then one student. It's very deep. It really came to

(36:11):
me Professor Melissa Harris Perry's sister sisters very good book.
You know, she put forth the idea and she got
it from somewhere else though too. But it was the
idea of trying to stand straight in a crooked and
you cannot stand straight. There's nothing normal about standing straight.
You can't stand straight in the crooked room. You gotta

(36:32):
contort yourself and you gotta do that which is abnormal
in order to try to fit in. And that's what
we see in this this movie that the young student Jasmine,
who wanted to fit in, as any young person would
want to do. She wanted to fit in, but she
was challenged almost at every turn. And not only was
she challenged, she was made to feel like it was

(36:54):
her that she had done something right. And so often
are black students are made to feel that way Black
people in general, that our very existence is wrong. You know,
how we express ourselves is wrong. So I love the
fact that you brought up Professor Melissa Haris Perry's books
Sister Citizen. I do encourage people to read that book.
But yeah, trying to trying to stand up straight in

(37:17):
the Crooked Room definitely an excellent example of what the
film is about. And you can lose yourself. That's no
benefit to you or to the world, because you're not
here to be a coybred copy of anybody else. You're
here to be you do you. But it's so hard
all of the pressures that are on you to make
you conform, that's what it is. And it's like we're

(37:37):
side eyeing you because you really don't. We don't really
believe you belong here, but since you're here, we're gonna
manage you. Know, you're not worthy, how you how you
snuck in here? You know, it's that kind of thing.
Definitely encourage people to watch that film and have some
conversations about it. Well, Professor Charlotte Allan Harris. We could
go on and on, and we will go on again.

(37:57):
We're gonna have to come back and do this again.
It has been an absolute pleasure to have you as
a guest on. Hello somebody on this particular episode. Thank
you all so much for joining us again. I am
here with my sister girl friend of many, many years,
Professor Sherlin Allen Hairs. She is an extraordinary educator, activists, writer, poet.

(38:19):
Remember we used to do spoken word poetry or we're
gonna talk about that on our next show. Baby used
to do Yes, Yes, we did, Yes we did, Oh
my god, how we did. We did some things and
we continue to do some things. But thank you so
much for gracing us with their presence. This has been
absolutely an illuminating episode on everybody listening. Thank you so

(38:43):
much for being here with us again. If you are
a regular listener, Thank you so much for your support.
If you are new for the very first time, welcome
to Hello somebody. We hope that you stick around. I'm
Nina Turner. Hello somebody, because everybody is somebody and I
want you all to keep the faith and keep the fight.

(39:05):
Turn a little ward Mary story, hairy things wor somebody
else and it makes a turn up. Believe it about
somebody turning universe that's given us somebody to reach turn times.
We Yeah, change is coming. The pain is nothing. Trying

(39:29):
to shoot for the stars. If you're gonna, ain't for something.
Embrace the love for your brother and sister. You need
these the mission brush. We need to puzzle this. Pictures
painted up, frame it up for the world to see.
Ain't to hate it up. Enough is enough, It's enough
making changes enough in turn of a voice of the
truth to wise world. Despire the youth to keep their
eyes on the roof. It's the end. Never give up,

(39:50):
keep conquering goals to the eye. Intelligent, silver, wisdom is gold.
Back to the end. Now it's your time. Stay firm,
don't fold to the a or you need is the
three bone. That's what Randie said. Now I'm gonna make sure.
These words from Randie spray for all the here to
give it your She can take you to the promised Land.
I swear world pieces what they fear, from Queens to
Cleveland on how yo were here? Famous? Famous? Maybe turn

(40:14):
up any call and tell somebody. Don't even turn up
white spanning, somebody ship to turn on love. Somebody even
turn up times points, said one of those one great

(40:38):
more is going on our hands. Well, Hello Somebody is
a production of I Heart Radio and the Black Effect Network.
For more podcast from our heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to

(41:01):
your favorite shows,
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