November 14, 2023 • 37 mins
Documentary filmmaker James Jones tells the unbelievable story of CEO-turned-fugitive Carlos Ghosn in “Wanted: The Escape of Carlos Ghosn.” In 2018, the former auto executive of Nissan and Renault was arrested in Japan on charges of financial misconduct. He then escaped prosecution by being smuggled out of the country…in a box. Jones, director of the BAFTA-winning “Chernobyl: The Last Tapes,” explores questions surrounding CEO excess and a potential corporate takedown in this four-part Apple TV+ series. Alec Baldwin speaks with James Jones about getting Ghosn to be interviewed for the series, the people who suffered collateral damage and if Ghosn, now residing in Lebanon, will ever be held accountable.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from iHeart Radio, Bernie made Off, Elizabeth Holmes, Sam
bankman Fried. It's easy to think that shocking levels of
greed and corruption are simply nothing new in the world
of white collar crime. But what is new is an
accused chief executive evading prosecution by escaping to a foreign
(00:26):
country in a box. That's the story of Carlos Gon,
former CEO of both Nissan and Renault. Goen was arrested
on the eve of a proposed merger between the two
companies and charged with financial misconduct. He was first placed
in solitary confinement and then house arrest, awaiting trial in Japan.
(00:50):
That is until former Green Beret Michael Taylor and his
son Peter shipped him off to Lebanon. The scandal ultimately
resulted in the sentencing of the tailors and former Nissan
executive Greg Kelly, while Gone walks free maintaining his innocence.
Documentarian James Jones, director of the Bafter winning Chernobyl The
(01:12):
Last Tapes, brought this story to life in the four
part series Wanted The Escape of Carlos Gone on Apple TV.
The series weaves questions surrounding a corporate takedown and the
potential framing of Gone with the claims of CEO excess.
I wanted to know what was the background of someone
(01:32):
who went from CEO to fugitive in such a swift
fall from grace So.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
He is a fascinating character. So he was born in Brazil,
in a town in deepest Amazonian jungle, grew up mainly
in Lebanon, went to university in France, but was always
kind of viewed as an outsider. You know, he was
never really accepted by the French establishment. He never played
the game of sucking up to politicians, going to the
(02:00):
right clubs, you know, having dinners with captains of industry.
He kind of thought he was so brilliant he could
play by his own rules, which ultimately left him without
many allies when it all came crashing down. He worked
for Michelin, the tire company, which is where he kind
of showed that he had this skill for like cost
cutting and turning companies around, and then was recruited by
(02:22):
Renau and became known as lacost Killer, and you know,
broke kind of French unions and sacked a lot of
people shut down factories was like hugely controversial. And then
when Reno took over Nissan, they thought, this is the
guy to go to Japan and just like modernize this company,
(02:43):
be ruthless, fire the people he needs to fire, and
just like save this company from death.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
It's so strange to hear someone reference going into the
Nissan culture to strip down and to make a Japanese
car company leaner and better and more competitive, when you're
always under the impression that the Japanese companies, particularly car companies,
(03:09):
are the leanest and meanest of them all. When Gone
goes over to Japan, does he find a lot of
fat there?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
He does. There are practices that have just always been
the same way. There were, you know, car companies owned
shares in supermarkets, so all these kind of weird idiosyncrasies
that the Japanese staff just saw as normal, you know,
and it took an outsider like Going. And another interesting
thing about Going is, I think you know, some people
(03:36):
in Japan said to us, you know, he was viewed
with great suspicion to begin with, but the fact that
he was like culturally hard to place, you know, he
wasn't French. He wasn't American. You know, he was willing
to be the bad go Yeah, exactly. He didn't kind
of stand on ceremony. He was absolutely ruthless, and on
some level, perhaps because they were facing you know, extinction,
(04:01):
they kind of went with it. And the results were
so quick. He said, if I don't turn this round
within three years, are quit. He turned it around within
a year, and you know, it was just massive efficiencies
straight off the bat. And you know, I think initially
people thought he'd cooked the books, but it was just
the same ruthlessness he had. And he's an interesting guy
because he's obviously brilliant, but he's not someone like a
(04:24):
Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg who has one design or
iconic brand or something that's associated with him. What he did,
he just had this focus and this work ethic, and
he inspired the people around him to commit to going
further than they'd ever pushed before and sticking with him
when he made hard decisions. And so what was so
(04:45):
fascinating making the series is you see how all these
things that made him brilliant as the success started to
go to his head, he kind of lost them. You know,
he wasn't working so hard he was spending a lot
of time in the private jet go you know, throwing parties,
SI going to Rio Carnival, you know, whereas his employees
were still buying their own stationery and you know, desperately
(05:08):
working and trying cutcasts wherever they could. And actually, like
it was just a really old, kind of tragic story
of success. It's like losing sight of what made you
so great, and suddenly people around you thinking, you know,
this emperor has no clothes.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
You became aware of this story and you decided you
wanted to make this documentary after Gone went to Lebanon
and after the Tailors went to prison.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, so I became aware of the story really when
he escaped. You know, I remember the headlines around the world.
The New York Post had this like enormost double bass case,
and you know, the rumor was he was smuggled out
in a music equipment box. But the film came about,
I think it was the summer of twenty twenty one,
and Apple wanted to do a series on the story.
(05:57):
They'd approached this production company. At that point, we had
no access to Gon. It was a couple of months
before the Tailors were extradited to Japan, effectively swapping places
with the man they'd helped escape. So we started with
very little really, you know, we knew this was an
amazing story. There was a kind of Hollywood heist element
to it of one of the world's most famous business
(06:19):
people being smuggled out of an island, a very kind
of closely monitored country, smuggled inside a music box on
a private jet.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I want to be clear for our audience. When you
say music box, you mean the cases that they stowed
musical equipment.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
In, right, exactly. Yeah, And there was like a guitar
case on top.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Gone was a bit of a band and there was
a little guy. So that made getting him out of
the country slightly easier than it would have been if
he was six foot five or somethingn't it. So you
became aware of the story after.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
The escape, yeah, exactly. The name was familiar. You know,
he was this kind of superstar in the car industry.
But you know, I'm a journalist a filmmaker, but I
don't follow the car industry closely. I mean I remember,
you know, there was shock. You know, in Japan, he
was like a demigod. You know, there were like manga,
comic books about his life. He was voted you know,
(07:10):
the man women would most like to have children with,
you know, and he's not a conventionally handsome guy. So
you know, he had this aura and this incredible reputation
and then overnight suddenly all that just came crashing down.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I watched the film and I look at a timeline
and when you likely got involved. So when you see
the party, he goes to the Versai at a restaurant
coll Verasai and he has this party. And yet you
have a lot of footage from that party. How did
he film the party?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, so the Ghones had organized the Marie Antoinette themed
party at Versailles. And like, if you know your history,
Marie Antoinette is you know, the symbol. You know, her
famous quote is let the meat cakes. She's the symbol
of kind of extreme inequality. And you know, within France,
people getting their come up. And so like perhaps an
unwise like party theme for a man who's using his coma.
(08:02):
He is there a bit of hooprice, you could say,
And yeah, the party organizes higher videographer to shoot all
these people dressed in kind of Marie Antoinette themed you know,
gobs and it's kind of completely revolutionary France. Yeah, I
mean it stirs up a revolutionary in all of us,
I think. See.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
So you get some wonderful footage of things like that,
the party, you're sit downs with Gone and his wife,
but Going in particular, that shot I'm assuming in Lebanon
after the fact, when he's when he's once he's escaped
to Lebanon exactly, and Gone strikes me as it seemed
like one of those situations where James Jones could have
(08:44):
left the room for several hours and Gone could have
spoken into the camera ceaselessly, you know, decrying his innocence
about what he seems like somebody who he could go
on and on forever to maintain his innocence. He's almost
never going to be satisfied.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Absolutely, he feels wronged. You know. When I asked him,
do you feel sorry for the victims in this story?
You know there's been a huge amount of collateral damage,
lives ruined by this whole saga, and he kind of
there's one moment he looked blankly at me and said,
if there's a victim here, it's me. You know, he
can't see beyond that. He feels there was a conspiracy
in Japan to take him down, and everything flowed from that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
But at the same time your documentary and I could
be wrong, maybe this is just what I gleaned from it.
There's a whiff of the idea, or even just a
slight whiff of the idea that that's certainly possible. Meaning
you walk away from watching your program with the idea
that the political life and the policies that are enforced
by the Japanese government are very often controlled by business itself.
(09:46):
Nissan isn't just some company. Nissan, like Sony, is a
huge company with tentacles into every corner of the world
and one of the major companies with a Japanese you know, headquarters.
And to say that people want to derail the Renau
Nissan merger is not a foolish idea, correct, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I mean, the interesting thing about this series, in this
whole story, is that it's not a black and white
story of kind of good versus evil. There are lots
of kind of contradictory truths, and like, there's no doubt
in my mind that there was a conspiracy to take
down Carlos Gon.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
You know, you believe there.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Was absolutely at first, and so Nissan is like, as
you say, one of the crown jewels in Japanese industry.
The thought of that being you know, subsumed by a
French company Reno was just an insult to Japanese pride,
and so they wanted and they realized that Carlos Gon,
having led them to huge success, saved them from extinction,
(10:47):
was now thinking about pulling off this merger, partly because
he would do quite well out of it. How was
Reno viewed as a car company, I think by the
Japanese as you know, a kind of poor relation. You know,
they didn't admire French kind of mechanics design. They bought
a huge stake in Nisan at a time when Nissan
(11:09):
was about to go bust, so it was a kind
of marriage or convenience. But then the idea that they
would be fully subsumed by a full alliance was just
anatoma to them. So there's no doubt in my mind
that Nissan and the Japanese justice system decided to take
Carlos going down.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Gone eventually is excoriated for paying himself huge amounts of money,
and the Japanese were like, listen, no one deserves to
be paid that amount of money when you're producing cars.
I mean, no one at the head of a company,
no matter how successful it is, should be paid this
amount of money. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
That's right? And I think it's partly a cultural thing,
you know. I think in France extreme wealth is viewed
with great suspicion. Likewise, in Japan, where you're kind of
you know, these companies are kind of hierarchical. You work
there for your whole lifetime and incrementally increase your salary.
Carlos Gon comes some more of a kind of American
business background, where the CEO is rewarded, you know, proportionately
(12:09):
with the company's profits. So he thought he was worth,
you know, five times what he was getting. He saw
himself on a level with Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, all
these kind of people. Carlos Gon's problem is that it
wasn't Carlos Gon inc. He was working for two companies
that had shareholders. He was an employee of these two companies,
whereas in his mind he became bigger than these companies
(12:31):
and deserved whatever he wanted to take.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Now, when you think that Gon was framed, you think
that he was set up in order again to derail
the merger, and the Japanese powers that be wanted to
hobble him, if you will. How much was he being
paid in those final years, and how much was he
accused of stealing from the company.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
So the interesting thing is that he kind of operated
in this gray area where he was paid by both
companies and he could kind of operate the way he
wanted because there wasn't the scrutiny. He'd surrounded himself with
yes men at both companies. He spent a lot of
his time, increasingly on a private jet, often flying to
places not on business but to kind of enjoy the
(13:18):
trappings of his success. But what's interesting is that even
though it was a conspiracy at first, they almost then
stumbled across evidence of real corruption, you know, so almost
by mistake, they found on the laptop.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
On the Nissan side of the Renna side.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
So the Nissan lawyers basically went and searched his former
lawyer's office in Beirut, discovered a laptop which had a
hard drive with all these flows of money which he'd
kept secret from Nissan, basically to and from Middle Eastern businessmen,
and he was writing checks from Nissan and Reno and
(13:53):
then through very convoluted means, through shell companies and so on,
he was receiving tens of millions of dollars back into
his pocket and he kept that secret. And when we
put it to him, he doesn't really have a convincing
answer for why, you know, he would be writing these
checks and receiving money and keeping it secret from his employees.
(14:14):
So that is why he's now wanted not only in
Japan from where he escaped, but the French now want
to put him on trial for corruption.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So I guess what's frustrating and confusing for me is
that on one hand people maintained that the Japanese government
set him up. On the other hand, he stole from
both companies. Which is it right?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Well, that's the thing, you know, we pose the question
in film four. The title is victim or villain, and
it doesn't need necessarily need to be either or you know,
he can be a victim of a conspiracy who suffered greatly,
was in solitary confinement, interrogated without a lawyer. You know,
they call the Japanese justice system the hostage justice system
(14:56):
because you're effectively kept hostage until you confess. So there's
no doubt that he and his family were victims at
that point. The problem for him is that they did
then stumble across real corruption and the case just became
you know, these allegations are much much more serious, and
so it's very hard for him to dismiss the label
of villain unless he's willing to go and stand trial
(15:18):
in France, which he's not. You know, right now, he's
a fugitive in Lebanon, and as far as I can see,
that's where he's going to spend the rest of his life.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Director James Jones. If you enjoy conversations with documentary directors
uncovering corporate corruption, check out my episode with Alex Gibney,
director of Enron, The Smartest Guys in the Room.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
The ghosts of all my films tend to follow me,
and I often keep in touch with sources and interview subjects,
and in odd ways they keep coming back to films
I make henceforth, So they kind of reverberate a little
bit like that moment in Ghostbusters. So they say, don't
cross the streams. Well, my streams are constantly getting crossed.
(16:07):
It seems like characters from one film are intruding into another.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
To hear more of my conversation with Alex Gibney, go
to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, James
Jones shares the intricacies of how Carlos gon was smuggled
out of Japan in a box. I'm Alec Baldwin and
(16:36):
you're listening to Here's the Thing. Former automobile executive. Carlos
Goon is a fugitive currently living the life of a
freeman in Lebanon. I was curious to learn that, while
the Japanese authorities couldn't get their hands on going due
to Lebanon's extradition laws, was the money he allegedly laundered recoverable.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
That's a good question. I mean, I think some of
his assets in France were frozen. I think some of
his assets in the States as well. But you know,
I think most of that money that ended up in
his pocket was in shell companies arranged from Lebanon, you know,
either within Lebanon itself or it in kind of tax
havens around the world. So I think Carlos Gohn is
still living a pretty comfortable life. He's living in the
(17:21):
mansion paid for by Nissan. He's got his super yacht
paid for by the you know, the money from the
Middle East and businessman. So I think the thing that
kills him is that his legacy has gone. You know,
his reputation will never recover. He's a fugitive. We all
know him now as a man who escaped in a box,
and that kills him because he would have gone down
(17:42):
in you know, the Automotive Hall of Fame as one
of the genius businessmen of the twenty first century.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So he decides to escape. Now the tailors, I want
you to describe how they come together. I doubt the
tailors have a website called We'll put you in a
Box smuggle you to Lebanon dot com. How did that
relationship get forged?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So, Mike Taylor is a former Green Beret. He'd you know,
served around the world, and then after leaving the military,
he'd actually spent some time in Lebanon during the Civil War.
There had met his wife, who is Lebanese, who is
a kind of distant cousin of Carlos Gohan's wife. So
I think Carlos Gohan's wife kind of started putting the
word out in Lebanon saying, you know, Carlos is going
(18:28):
to die in a Japanese prison. He's in solitary confinement.
It's freezing cold. You know, he's not going to live
much longer. I'm never going to properly see him again.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Beirut is like a big village. Everyone knows everyone. And
someone said, there's this guy, Mike Taylor, and he's got
quite a reputation. He'd helped journalists escape from the Taliban.
He had a specialty in kids who are abducted by
one parent. He'd go in and get the kid back
for the parent who paid him to do it. And
so he just had this like amazing reputation. He met
(19:00):
Carlos Gohan's wife in Beirut. They talked about a possible plan.
But you know, this is not getting someone out of
Egypt or something like that. This is Japan. It's an island.
The CCTV everywhere going is under house arrest. This is like,
you know, for someone like Mike Taylor, this is you know,
if you're a mountain climber, it's like climbing Everest or whatever.
This is just like the ultimate challenge.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Taylor is what we used to call a soldier of fortune,
right exactly. Yeah, this is a great challenge for him.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
It's a great challenge, and you know, I'm sure he
realizes that at some point it could be quite lucrative.
But I think just and also I think on a
personal level, he met Carlos Gohan's wife and felt great sympathy,
felt like there was an injustice, thought the Japanese system
was was unfair and cruel, and so he started formulating
this plan. And you know, they could have gone by boat,
(19:49):
but it was winter, the sea could be choppy, and
he thought, let's get him in a Let's get him
in a box, take him on a private jet, you know,
small airport, not in Tokyo, you know, the secure it
is more lax on private jets. He did a test
and saw that they check the luggage going into into Japan,
but not coming out. He made sure the box was
(20:10):
too big to fit through the X rays. So he
was like, you know, it's a military operation, planning every
single detail because he was prepared. He was prepared.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
But for me, when I'm curious about us who contacted Taylor,
who's working with Gone, that access as tailor.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So that I mean, basically, because Carlos Gone was pretty
clear that his phone was tapped. And you know he
could tell that because one day he called a newspaper
journalist to say, they're a guy standing outside my house
and we have evidence that Nissan did use spies to
follow him and other people they were kind of going after.
And the day after he called the journalist, the spies
(20:50):
didn't come to stand outside his house. So he thought, okay,
I know they tapped my phone. So he had to
get a special burner phone, but was essentially communicating with
his wife, who was communicating with Mike Taylor. So his
wife was in Lebanon at this time. So she is
a fascinating character because she's his second wife. She's kind
of beautiful, blonde, charismatic, incredibly warm, and she was kind
(21:14):
of associated with Gohn's transformation from this kind of nerdy
mister Bean character, Yes, to someone who loved lavish parties.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yes, dressed differently.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Dress differently, had his hair, hair implant, you know, laser
eye surgery, sharp suits, and you know, suddenly was on
the red carpet at Cairn. You know, this was like
a totally unknown world. This is red carpet going exactly.
So she was seen, I mean a Bimbo is too strong,
but certainly someone who enjoyed the finer things in life.
(21:43):
But what you saw over the course of this whole
saga is that she, first of all, when he was
locked up, she went out on the media and kind
of almost single handedly changed the world's perception of the
Japanese justice system to the point where even a UN
body issued a report about hostage justice. You know, the
(22:03):
terrible violations of human rights. Now, you might say Carlos
Gohn is an unlikely champion of human rights, but that's
what his wife did. And then she also played this
kind of amazing strategic role in pulling off the escape,
which he doesn't want to talk about, clearly for legal reasons,
but you know, it's quite clear that she was pulling
the strings. But she now within Lebanon is kind of
(22:25):
celebrated as this power behind the throne who pulled off
this amazing plot. Obviously, Goan was the man who was
brave enough to actually lie down inside this box in
the dark and just pray that he made it to Lebanon.
But I think, you know, I think that's interesting about
his own psychology, right, I mean, he's a man who
is willing to take these incredibly high pressure decisions, and
(22:48):
he can seem almost quite robotic sometimes. So he just
weighed up the kind of cost benefit and the risk
of getting in that box and risking everything, and he
thought it's worth it, because otherwise, you know, I die
in prison in Japan.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So the Tailors are arrested. There is an extradition treaty
and some kind of legal arrangements between the United States
government and the Japanese government, and the Tailors are arrested
in the US first correct, right at the behest of
the Japanese government. Absolutely yeah, And the Tailors make no
attempt to flee that prosecution. No.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I mean, the Tailors could have laid low in Lebanon
like Carlos Gown and you know, enjoyed the fruits of
their amazingly successful escape. But they wanted to go back
to the States. They didn't want to hide away. I
think deep down they thought it wasn't such a serious crime,
and you know, the States wouldn't give up their own citizens,
let alone a kind of war hero. But they underestimated
(23:48):
how mad the Japanese were. I think, you know, this
was a national humiliation to lose its most famous prisoner
who pops up in Lebanon and it gives a press conference,
you know, slamming the Japanese's just the system. So I
think they were so determined to get the Taylor's back
because they knew they'd never get Carlos gone.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Director James Jones. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a
friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on
the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
When we come back, James Jones shares what it was
like interviewing Carlos Gon while Gon was on the lamb
from the Law. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to
(24:43):
Here's the Thing. Director James Jones got access to all
of the major players in the Carlos Gon saga, including
those who were tried by the Japanese government for their involvement.
After a three year battle. Former Nissan executive Greg Kelly
received a six month suspended sentence, but Michael Taylor and
(25:04):
his son Peter ultimately served time in a Japanese prison.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
So they served nearly two years. And it was brutal, correct,
it was brutal. I mean it was like, you know,
solitary confinement, freezing cold cells. Mike Taylor is not a
young man.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
You know.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
He came out of prison, you know, incredibly gaunt and sick.
He looked about thirty years older than he really is.
They told us these stories that they'd be forced to
they'd be given a big piece of cardboard and they'd
have to rip it into smaller and smaller pieces. Yes,
and I think the prison system would say that was entertainment,
that was to you know, stop them being bored. But
(25:42):
you know, Mike Taylor said that his fingers were like painful,
and it was like, you know, sounds to me more
like torture rather than entertainment. So they certainly had an
even harder time than Carlos going in prison. And you know,
I think for Mike Taylor, the thing that was even
more painful than the kind of physical discomfort and hardship
was that he'd involved his son. And his son is
(26:05):
not a kind of hardened war veteran. He's a you know,
young guy in his twenties who probably completely adores his dad,
has always wanted to emulate his dad. So the chance
to be part, even a small part of his most
outlandish plot was probably just too exciting to turn down.
But then no one would have ever thought that he'd
end up spending you know, years in a Japanese prison
(26:27):
as well.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
And in the program Gone, I believe in one of
your sitdowns with him, he's quoted as saying something along
the lines of everybody knew the risks they were taking, yeah,
and so Gone does not have a lot of sympathy
or empathy for the tailors.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I was genuinely surprised how little he he had.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Big insight into Gone. That comment real incided to go.
Like I said, Going's about Gone totally, and he uses
people to get what he wants and to move along
the game board as he desires. And then he doesn't
really when he doesn't have many use for you anymore,
it seems like he just forgets about you. One thing
that I was confused about was what was the fee
(27:09):
that the tailors were told they would be paid for
the escape just the escape itself.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
So they were given expenses ahead of the escape, which
was I think one point three million dollars, which was
just to cover planes, private planes, you know, a reqi,
the pilots or you know all those. But you know,
I'm probably a bit for yourself as well. But Mike
had always said, after the fact, we will we'll talk money.
(27:37):
You know, the priority is getting you out after we
do it. And I think they did come to an
arrangement afterwards for some money in the in the low millions.
But then Mike and his son spent years in Japanese
prison and say they've got kind of a million dollars
of legal fees, which Goan had assured them he would pay,
(27:58):
and to date has he paid. He's paid them a
tiny fraction of that.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Is it difficult for them to take Goan's money? Is
that the legal issue?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Well, they can't touch him. I think. You know, Mike
has gone to Lebanon to meet Goan and kind of
appeal to his decency exactly. You know, it's like I
saved your life, unique brand of decency when Goane got
out of the box on the private jet and he
said to Mike Taylor, you know you saved my life,
and he really did. Like if it wasn't for Mike Taylor,
(28:30):
Carlos Gohen would still be in a Japanese prison and
Mike Taylor would have just been living a free man
in Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Where is Taylor.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Now he's back home in Massachusetts and where is his son?
His son is in Dubai kind of starting out various businesses.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I think is Taylor willing to talk about what happened
or is he better off not talking about what happened.
I mean, he served his time.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
He served his time. You know, he gave us his
first interview and Peter Taylor, and you know, he kind
of trusted we were doing it right. He didn't want
it just to be the Carlos Gohon show as well.
But I think he knows now because he has spoken
out about feeling let down by Gone and you know,
the legal fees not being paid. I think he recognizes
(29:14):
that that relationship is over. He's not going to receive
a pennymore.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Right now, when you're sitting down and doing the one
on ones with Gone, you did them in Lebanon. Correct? Yeah,
I'm assuming you did hours and hours of interviews with him,
correct or limited?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
He's he's an impatient guy. But as long as you're
on top topics he likes talking about. He'll give you
all day. It's when you start asking the tough questions
he suddenly starts looking at his watch.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
You know, ah, did you ask the tough questions and
we did.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Yeah. Yeah, so we asked about the omar and allegations.
We also asked, you know, his his dad was a
convicted murderer priest.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
That's amazing part of the story.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
And you know, as his wife said, you know, Gon
basically just shut down that whole topic. You know, he
was a kid, his father was accused of killing a priest,
was sentenced death. Goan was kind of six years old.
Must have been incredibly traumatic and formative. But it's a secret.
You know, no one talks about it. It's kind of
known about Lebanon, but had never been reported. Gone had
always refused to talk about it. But what was so
(30:12):
interesting is that his wife, Carol said, his whole life
has been trying to prove to his dad that he's
not his dad. And then you think, my god, he's
tried to prove that he's not a criminal like his dad,
but he's ended up breaking the law. You know, now
a fugitive in Lebanon. It's just like kind of come
full circle. So I thought that was just so revealing
(30:34):
of his mentality and drive.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
When you should something like this, it's presumed that there's
a lot of stuff that you leave out that you
might have wished you had left in.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Was that the case, I think almost everything is in there.
There were a few people who knew Gone very well,
who would only speak to us on background, but who
gave us the idea of him as a narcissist, and
you know, helped us understand and his psychology to kind
of join the dots of the facts we had. For instance,
(31:05):
we had the contents of his mobile phone when he
was arrested and he was like totting up his personal wealth,
and there was the final note was and if I
pull off this merger, I'll become a billionaire, and so like,
we had insights like that into him. But there are
a few people who had been very close to him
for a number of years that we would have liked
(31:25):
to go on camera. But in terms of the key players,
like having Gone and his wife and then the tailors,
those are the key players who who we just needed
to have to make it feel like we were telling
the full story.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Were you commissioned to do this? Did Apple commission you?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Or this was your pro Apple commissioned it? Yet?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
God, and if we go down your filmography Dispatches, Panorama,
This World, the Frontline episodes, Children of Guys are more
than a few of them. Commissions or you like commissions.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, it's a mixture. I mean the last film I
did before this was about Chernobyl, and that was my
idea that we then took to Sky and HBO. I'm
working on a Russia film now that's independently funded that
we will hope to premier at film festivals and then,
And that's been actually great working in a different way,
so you're not necessarily answering straight to a broadcast or streamer.
(32:24):
I think streamers are more prescriptive probably than traditional broadcasters.
I think I've been lucky so like Chernobyl, it was
a very clear concept of like telling the story entirely
through archive, a lot of it unseen, and you know,
I think you just try and make sure that you
accept the commission from people who buy into that vision.
(32:45):
So I've never had a situation where someone has wanted
the film to be something completely different.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
So pretty much get that sorted at upfront.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
You guys both want the same thing exactly, So I've
never felt arguments about what stays in a way get
to cut out.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
It'll be yeah, you'd get minor notes. But I think
like maybe, unlike with a movie where you have like
studio execs, you know, demanding major changes, I think from
the whole a doc director, at least in my experience,
you feel like it's always your own and you might
have to compromise on a couple of things, but it's
your vision that they're buying into. But maybe I've just
(33:22):
been lucky.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Now does go and roam the streets of Lebanon, of
be rude or where have you? Freely? Does he have
to mask himself? Because the guy that gets put in
a box in Japan and sent to Lebanon could justice
easily be kidnapped, put it in a box and shipped
to Japan and go you know, round trip if you will.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I mean, and we know who might put him in
the box and take him back. Right there's a guy
who's got a who's probably seeking revenge right now. But yeah,
he drives around with heavy security. You know, he has
armed guards. He's very careful about the way he travels,
and you know Lebanon, it's it's not just about sent
back to Japan, but Lebanon is a very unstable place.
(34:03):
So although it's you know, beautiful country, great food, good beaches.
You know, you can walk in the mountains. You know,
Hezbolau is one of the largest parties, and that you know,
it feels like it's constantly on the brink of economic collapse,
civil war. So he's trapped in a place that for
a man who's accustomed to flying the world and private
(34:23):
jets and living, you know, the life of ultimate freedom,
he's constrained. He's constrained and you know, who knows what
Lebanon will look like in five years.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Where's Kelly? Now?
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Kelly's back home in Nashville. So Kelly was his kind
of right hand man, the man who was kind of
tasked with keeping going at the company. As he said,
going was like the Michael Jordan of the car industry,
and it was my job to make sure he didn't
go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
His story in the show is painful because you really
see him suffer. Right, you know, the tailors committed a crime.
The tailors, although their hearts were in the right place,
they were immersed there is they took money. They committed
a crime. Gone is probably guilty of some of what
they say. He is at least, oh, they shoulday at
least it appears that way, at least a layman would
(35:09):
say that. But Kelly seems like the one person of
the project was purely innocent. Yeah, he didn't deserve any
of what happened to him.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Absolutely, And they tricked him into coming over to Japan
knowing that he needed back surgery. He was in agony,
so he had this incredibly long flight. They assumed that
he would just be desperate to go home. When they
confronted him with these charges, he'd sign whatever they wanted
and he'd throw going under the bus.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
I can't believe he got on the plane. I know,
why did he go? Who's his lawyer? I know?
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I know, well there is there is one person in
particular who was like Greg Kelly's protege, who is the
one who called him back, who he trusted mistakenly, and
you know they underestimated Greg Kelly. He was just like, well,
these charges aren't true. I can't possibly sign this, And
he ended up spending three years of his life stuck
in Japan.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
What are you working on now?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
So it's a film about Russian assassination, which is we're
submitting to festivals next year.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
But you finished.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
We're getting close to the end, but it feels like we're.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
No.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
So we're gonna hopefully premiere a festival early next year
and then take it from there.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
So when this is over, when you're done with Carlos, goone,
guys getting stuffed in boxes, Russian assassinations. I'm assuming the
project you're doing next is something like the History of Candy.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
That would be lovely.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
My thanks to documentary filmmaker James Jones. This episode was
recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced
by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer
is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Daniel Gingrich.
I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you
by iHeart Radio b
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from iHeart Radio, Bernie made Off, Elizabeth Holmes, Sam
bankman Fried. It's easy to think that shocking levels of
greed and corruption are simply nothing new in the world
of white collar crime. But what is new is an
accused chief executive evading prosecution by escaping to a foreign
(00:26):
country in a box. That's the story of Carlos Gon,
former CEO of both Nissan and Renault. Goen was arrested
on the eve of a proposed merger between the two
companies and charged with financial misconduct. He was first placed
in solitary confinement and then house arrest, awaiting trial in Japan.
(00:50):
That is until former Green Beret Michael Taylor and his
son Peter shipped him off to Lebanon. The scandal ultimately
resulted in the sentencing of the tailors and former Nissan
executive Greg Kelly, while Gone walks free maintaining his innocence.
Documentarian James Jones, director of the Bafter winning Chernobyl The
(01:12):
Last Tapes, brought this story to life in the four
part series Wanted The Escape of Carlos Gone on Apple TV.
The series weaves questions surrounding a corporate takedown and the
potential framing of Gone with the claims of CEO excess.
I wanted to know what was the background of someone
(01:32):
who went from CEO to fugitive in such a swift
fall from grace So.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
He is a fascinating character. So he was born in Brazil,
in a town in deepest Amazonian jungle, grew up mainly
in Lebanon, went to university in France, but was always
kind of viewed as an outsider. You know, he was
never really accepted by the French establishment. He never played
the game of sucking up to politicians, going to the
(02:00):
right clubs, you know, having dinners with captains of industry.
He kind of thought he was so brilliant he could
play by his own rules, which ultimately left him without
many allies when it all came crashing down. He worked
for Michelin, the tire company, which is where he kind
of showed that he had this skill for like cost
cutting and turning companies around, and then was recruited by
(02:22):
Renau and became known as lacost Killer, and you know,
broke kind of French unions and sacked a lot of
people shut down factories was like hugely controversial. And then
when Reno took over Nissan, they thought, this is the
guy to go to Japan and just like modernize this company,
(02:43):
be ruthless, fire the people he needs to fire, and
just like save this company from death.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
It's so strange to hear someone reference going into the
Nissan culture to strip down and to make a Japanese
car company leaner and better and more competitive, when you're
always under the impression that the Japanese companies, particularly car companies,
(03:09):
are the leanest and meanest of them all. When Gone
goes over to Japan, does he find a lot of
fat there?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
He does. There are practices that have just always been
the same way. There were, you know, car companies owned
shares in supermarkets, so all these kind of weird idiosyncrasies
that the Japanese staff just saw as normal, you know,
and it took an outsider like Going. And another interesting
thing about Going is, I think you know, some people
(03:36):
in Japan said to us, you know, he was viewed
with great suspicion to begin with, but the fact that
he was like culturally hard to place, you know, he
wasn't French. He wasn't American. You know, he was willing
to be the bad go Yeah, exactly. He didn't kind
of stand on ceremony. He was absolutely ruthless, and on
some level, perhaps because they were facing you know, extinction,
(04:01):
they kind of went with it. And the results were
so quick. He said, if I don't turn this round
within three years, are quit. He turned it around within
a year, and you know, it was just massive efficiencies
straight off the bat. And you know, I think initially
people thought he'd cooked the books, but it was just
the same ruthlessness he had. And he's an interesting guy
because he's obviously brilliant, but he's not someone like a
(04:24):
Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg who has one design or
iconic brand or something that's associated with him. What he did,
he just had this focus and this work ethic, and
he inspired the people around him to commit to going
further than they'd ever pushed before and sticking with him
when he made hard decisions. And so what was so
(04:45):
fascinating making the series is you see how all these
things that made him brilliant as the success started to
go to his head, he kind of lost them. You know,
he wasn't working so hard he was spending a lot
of time in the private jet go you know, throwing parties,
SI going to Rio Carnival, you know, whereas his employees
were still buying their own stationery and you know, desperately
(05:08):
working and trying cutcasts wherever they could. And actually, like
it was just a really old, kind of tragic story
of success. It's like losing sight of what made you
so great, and suddenly people around you thinking, you know,
this emperor has no clothes.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
You became aware of this story and you decided you
wanted to make this documentary after Gone went to Lebanon
and after the Tailors went to prison.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, so I became aware of the story really when
he escaped. You know, I remember the headlines around the world.
The New York Post had this like enormost double bass case,
and you know, the rumor was he was smuggled out
in a music equipment box. But the film came about,
I think it was the summer of twenty twenty one,
and Apple wanted to do a series on the story.
(05:57):
They'd approached this production company. At that point, we had
no access to Gon. It was a couple of months
before the Tailors were extradited to Japan, effectively swapping places
with the man they'd helped escape. So we started with
very little really, you know, we knew this was an
amazing story. There was a kind of Hollywood heist element
to it of one of the world's most famous business
(06:19):
people being smuggled out of an island, a very kind
of closely monitored country, smuggled inside a music box on
a private jet.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I want to be clear for our audience. When you
say music box, you mean the cases that they stowed
musical equipment.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
In, right, exactly. Yeah, And there was like a guitar
case on top.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Gone was a bit of a band and there was
a little guy. So that made getting him out of
the country slightly easier than it would have been if
he was six foot five or somethingn't it. So you
became aware of the story after.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
The escape, yeah, exactly. The name was familiar. You know,
he was this kind of superstar in the car industry.
But you know, I'm a journalist a filmmaker, but I
don't follow the car industry closely. I mean I remember,
you know, there was shock. You know, in Japan, he
was like a demigod. You know, there were like manga,
comic books about his life. He was voted you know,
(07:10):
the man women would most like to have children with,
you know, and he's not a conventionally handsome guy. So
you know, he had this aura and this incredible reputation
and then overnight suddenly all that just came crashing down.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I watched the film and I look at a timeline
and when you likely got involved. So when you see
the party, he goes to the Versai at a restaurant
coll Verasai and he has this party. And yet you
have a lot of footage from that party. How did
he film the party?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, so the Ghones had organized the Marie Antoinette themed
party at Versailles. And like, if you know your history,
Marie Antoinette is you know, the symbol. You know, her
famous quote is let the meat cakes. She's the symbol
of kind of extreme inequality. And you know, within France,
people getting their come up. And so like perhaps an
unwise like party theme for a man who's using his coma.
(08:02):
He is there a bit of hooprice, you could say,
And yeah, the party organizes higher videographer to shoot all
these people dressed in kind of Marie Antoinette themed you know,
gobs and it's kind of completely revolutionary France. Yeah, I
mean it stirs up a revolutionary in all of us,
I think. See.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
So you get some wonderful footage of things like that,
the party, you're sit downs with Gone and his wife,
but Going in particular, that shot I'm assuming in Lebanon
after the fact, when he's when he's once he's escaped
to Lebanon exactly, and Gone strikes me as it seemed
like one of those situations where James Jones could have
(08:44):
left the room for several hours and Gone could have
spoken into the camera ceaselessly, you know, decrying his innocence
about what he seems like somebody who he could go
on and on forever to maintain his innocence. He's almost
never going to be satisfied.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Absolutely, he feels wronged. You know. When I asked him,
do you feel sorry for the victims in this story?
You know there's been a huge amount of collateral damage,
lives ruined by this whole saga, and he kind of
there's one moment he looked blankly at me and said,
if there's a victim here, it's me. You know, he
can't see beyond that. He feels there was a conspiracy
in Japan to take him down, and everything flowed from that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
But at the same time your documentary and I could
be wrong, maybe this is just what I gleaned from it.
There's a whiff of the idea, or even just a
slight whiff of the idea that that's certainly possible. Meaning
you walk away from watching your program with the idea
that the political life and the policies that are enforced
by the Japanese government are very often controlled by business itself.
(09:46):
Nissan isn't just some company. Nissan, like Sony, is a
huge company with tentacles into every corner of the world
and one of the major companies with a Japanese you know, headquarters.
And to say that people want to derail the Renau
Nissan merger is not a foolish idea, correct, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I mean, the interesting thing about this series, in this
whole story, is that it's not a black and white
story of kind of good versus evil. There are lots
of kind of contradictory truths, and like, there's no doubt
in my mind that there was a conspiracy to take
down Carlos Gon.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
You know, you believe there.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Was absolutely at first, and so Nissan is like, as
you say, one of the crown jewels in Japanese industry.
The thought of that being you know, subsumed by a
French company Reno was just an insult to Japanese pride,
and so they wanted and they realized that Carlos Gon,
having led them to huge success, saved them from extinction,
(10:47):
was now thinking about pulling off this merger, partly because
he would do quite well out of it. How was
Reno viewed as a car company, I think by the
Japanese as you know, a kind of poor relation. You know,
they didn't admire French kind of mechanics design. They bought
a huge stake in Nisan at a time when Nissan
(11:09):
was about to go bust, so it was a kind
of marriage or convenience. But then the idea that they
would be fully subsumed by a full alliance was just
anatoma to them. So there's no doubt in my mind
that Nissan and the Japanese justice system decided to take
Carlos going down.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Gone eventually is excoriated for paying himself huge amounts of money,
and the Japanese were like, listen, no one deserves to
be paid that amount of money when you're producing cars.
I mean, no one at the head of a company,
no matter how successful it is, should be paid this
amount of money. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
That's right? And I think it's partly a cultural thing,
you know. I think in France extreme wealth is viewed
with great suspicion. Likewise, in Japan, where you're kind of
you know, these companies are kind of hierarchical. You work
there for your whole lifetime and incrementally increase your salary.
Carlos Gon comes some more of a kind of American
business background, where the CEO is rewarded, you know, proportionately
(12:09):
with the company's profits. So he thought he was worth,
you know, five times what he was getting. He saw
himself on a level with Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, all
these kind of people. Carlos Gon's problem is that it
wasn't Carlos Gon inc. He was working for two companies
that had shareholders. He was an employee of these two companies,
whereas in his mind he became bigger than these companies
(12:31):
and deserved whatever he wanted to take.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Now, when you think that Gon was framed, you think
that he was set up in order again to derail
the merger, and the Japanese powers that be wanted to
hobble him, if you will. How much was he being
paid in those final years, and how much was he
accused of stealing from the company.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
So the interesting thing is that he kind of operated
in this gray area where he was paid by both
companies and he could kind of operate the way he
wanted because there wasn't the scrutiny. He'd surrounded himself with
yes men at both companies. He spent a lot of
his time, increasingly on a private jet, often flying to
places not on business but to kind of enjoy the
(13:18):
trappings of his success. But what's interesting is that even
though it was a conspiracy at first, they almost then
stumbled across evidence of real corruption, you know, so almost
by mistake, they found on the laptop.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
On the Nissan side of the Renna side.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
So the Nissan lawyers basically went and searched his former
lawyer's office in Beirut, discovered a laptop which had a
hard drive with all these flows of money which he'd
kept secret from Nissan, basically to and from Middle Eastern businessmen,
and he was writing checks from Nissan and Reno and
(13:53):
then through very convoluted means, through shell companies and so on,
he was receiving tens of millions of dollars back into
his pocket and he kept that secret. And when we
put it to him, he doesn't really have a convincing
answer for why, you know, he would be writing these
checks and receiving money and keeping it secret from his employees.
(14:14):
So that is why he's now wanted not only in
Japan from where he escaped, but the French now want
to put him on trial for corruption.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So I guess what's frustrating and confusing for me is
that on one hand people maintained that the Japanese government
set him up. On the other hand, he stole from
both companies. Which is it right?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Well, that's the thing, you know, we pose the question
in film four. The title is victim or villain, and
it doesn't need necessarily need to be either or you know,
he can be a victim of a conspiracy who suffered greatly,
was in solitary confinement, interrogated without a lawyer. You know,
they call the Japanese justice system the hostage justice system
(14:56):
because you're effectively kept hostage until you confess. So there's
no doubt that he and his family were victims at
that point. The problem for him is that they did
then stumble across real corruption and the case just became
you know, these allegations are much much more serious, and
so it's very hard for him to dismiss the label
of villain unless he's willing to go and stand trial
(15:18):
in France, which he's not. You know, right now, he's
a fugitive in Lebanon, and as far as I can see,
that's where he's going to spend the rest of his life.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Director James Jones. If you enjoy conversations with documentary directors
uncovering corporate corruption, check out my episode with Alex Gibney,
director of Enron, The Smartest Guys in the Room.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
The ghosts of all my films tend to follow me,
and I often keep in touch with sources and interview subjects,
and in odd ways they keep coming back to films
I make henceforth, So they kind of reverberate a little
bit like that moment in Ghostbusters. So they say, don't
cross the streams. Well, my streams are constantly getting crossed.
(16:07):
It seems like characters from one film are intruding into another.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
To hear more of my conversation with Alex Gibney, go
to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, James
Jones shares the intricacies of how Carlos gon was smuggled
out of Japan in a box. I'm Alec Baldwin and
(16:36):
you're listening to Here's the Thing. Former automobile executive. Carlos
Goon is a fugitive currently living the life of a
freeman in Lebanon. I was curious to learn that, while
the Japanese authorities couldn't get their hands on going due
to Lebanon's extradition laws, was the money he allegedly laundered recoverable.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
That's a good question. I mean, I think some of
his assets in France were frozen. I think some of
his assets in the States as well. But you know,
I think most of that money that ended up in
his pocket was in shell companies arranged from Lebanon, you know,
either within Lebanon itself or it in kind of tax
havens around the world. So I think Carlos Gohn is
still living a pretty comfortable life. He's living in the
(17:21):
mansion paid for by Nissan. He's got his super yacht
paid for by the you know, the money from the
Middle East and businessman. So I think the thing that
kills him is that his legacy has gone. You know,
his reputation will never recover. He's a fugitive. We all
know him now as a man who escaped in a box,
and that kills him because he would have gone down
(17:42):
in you know, the Automotive Hall of Fame as one
of the genius businessmen of the twenty first century.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So he decides to escape. Now the tailors, I want
you to describe how they come together. I doubt the
tailors have a website called We'll put you in a
Box smuggle you to Lebanon dot com. How did that
relationship get forged?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So, Mike Taylor is a former Green Beret. He'd you know,
served around the world, and then after leaving the military,
he'd actually spent some time in Lebanon during the Civil War.
There had met his wife, who is Lebanese, who is
a kind of distant cousin of Carlos Gohan's wife. So
I think Carlos Gohan's wife kind of started putting the
word out in Lebanon saying, you know, Carlos is going
(18:28):
to die in a Japanese prison. He's in solitary confinement.
It's freezing cold. You know, he's not going to live
much longer. I'm never going to properly see him again.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Beirut is like a big village. Everyone knows everyone. And
someone said, there's this guy, Mike Taylor, and he's got
quite a reputation. He'd helped journalists escape from the Taliban.
He had a specialty in kids who are abducted by
one parent. He'd go in and get the kid back
for the parent who paid him to do it. And
so he just had this like amazing reputation. He met
(19:00):
Carlos Gohan's wife in Beirut. They talked about a possible plan.
But you know, this is not getting someone out of
Egypt or something like that. This is Japan. It's an island.
The CCTV everywhere going is under house arrest. This is like,
you know, for someone like Mike Taylor, this is you know,
if you're a mountain climber, it's like climbing Everest or whatever.
This is just like the ultimate challenge.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Taylor is what we used to call a soldier of fortune,
right exactly. Yeah, this is a great challenge for him.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
It's a great challenge, and you know, I'm sure he
realizes that at some point it could be quite lucrative.
But I think just and also I think on a
personal level, he met Carlos Gohan's wife and felt great sympathy,
felt like there was an injustice, thought the Japanese system
was was unfair and cruel, and so he started formulating
this plan. And you know, they could have gone by boat,
(19:49):
but it was winter, the sea could be choppy, and
he thought, let's get him in a Let's get him
in a box, take him on a private jet, you know,
small airport, not in Tokyo, you know, the secure it
is more lax on private jets. He did a test
and saw that they check the luggage going into into Japan,
but not coming out. He made sure the box was
(20:10):
too big to fit through the X rays. So he
was like, you know, it's a military operation, planning every
single detail because he was prepared. He was prepared.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
But for me, when I'm curious about us who contacted Taylor,
who's working with Gone, that access as tailor.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So that I mean, basically, because Carlos Gone was pretty
clear that his phone was tapped. And you know he
could tell that because one day he called a newspaper
journalist to say, they're a guy standing outside my house
and we have evidence that Nissan did use spies to
follow him and other people they were kind of going after.
And the day after he called the journalist, the spies
(20:50):
didn't come to stand outside his house. So he thought, okay,
I know they tapped my phone. So he had to
get a special burner phone, but was essentially communicating with
his wife, who was communicating with Mike Taylor. So his
wife was in Lebanon at this time. So she is
a fascinating character because she's his second wife. She's kind
of beautiful, blonde, charismatic, incredibly warm, and she was kind
(21:14):
of associated with Gohn's transformation from this kind of nerdy
mister Bean character, Yes, to someone who loved lavish parties.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yes, dressed differently.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Dress differently, had his hair, hair implant, you know, laser
eye surgery, sharp suits, and you know, suddenly was on
the red carpet at Cairn. You know, this was like
a totally unknown world. This is red carpet going exactly.
So she was seen, I mean a Bimbo is too strong,
but certainly someone who enjoyed the finer things in life.
(21:43):
But what you saw over the course of this whole
saga is that she, first of all, when he was
locked up, she went out on the media and kind
of almost single handedly changed the world's perception of the
Japanese justice system to the point where even a UN
body issued a report about hostage justice. You know, the
(22:03):
terrible violations of human rights. Now, you might say Carlos
Gohn is an unlikely champion of human rights, but that's
what his wife did. And then she also played this
kind of amazing strategic role in pulling off the escape,
which he doesn't want to talk about, clearly for legal reasons,
but you know, it's quite clear that she was pulling
the strings. But she now within Lebanon is kind of
(22:25):
celebrated as this power behind the throne who pulled off
this amazing plot. Obviously, Goan was the man who was
brave enough to actually lie down inside this box in
the dark and just pray that he made it to Lebanon.
But I think, you know, I think that's interesting about
his own psychology, right, I mean, he's a man who
is willing to take these incredibly high pressure decisions, and
(22:48):
he can seem almost quite robotic sometimes. So he just
weighed up the kind of cost benefit and the risk
of getting in that box and risking everything, and he
thought it's worth it, because otherwise, you know, I die
in prison in Japan.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So the Tailors are arrested. There is an extradition treaty
and some kind of legal arrangements between the United States
government and the Japanese government, and the Tailors are arrested
in the US first correct, right at the behest of
the Japanese government. Absolutely yeah, And the Tailors make no
attempt to flee that prosecution. No.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I mean, the Tailors could have laid low in Lebanon
like Carlos Gown and you know, enjoyed the fruits of
their amazingly successful escape. But they wanted to go back
to the States. They didn't want to hide away. I
think deep down they thought it wasn't such a serious crime,
and you know, the States wouldn't give up their own citizens,
let alone a kind of war hero. But they underestimated
(23:48):
how mad the Japanese were. I think, you know, this
was a national humiliation to lose its most famous prisoner
who pops up in Lebanon and it gives a press conference,
you know, slamming the Japanese's just the system. So I
think they were so determined to get the Taylor's back
because they knew they'd never get Carlos gone.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Director James Jones. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a
friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on
the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
When we come back, James Jones shares what it was
like interviewing Carlos Gon while Gon was on the lamb
from the Law. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to
(24:43):
Here's the Thing. Director James Jones got access to all
of the major players in the Carlos Gon saga, including
those who were tried by the Japanese government for their involvement.
After a three year battle. Former Nissan executive Greg Kelly
received a six month suspended sentence, but Michael Taylor and
(25:04):
his son Peter ultimately served time in a Japanese prison.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
So they served nearly two years. And it was brutal, correct,
it was brutal. I mean it was like, you know,
solitary confinement, freezing cold cells. Mike Taylor is not a
young man.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
You know.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
He came out of prison, you know, incredibly gaunt and sick.
He looked about thirty years older than he really is.
They told us these stories that they'd be forced to
they'd be given a big piece of cardboard and they'd
have to rip it into smaller and smaller pieces. Yes,
and I think the prison system would say that was entertainment,
that was to you know, stop them being bored. But
(25:42):
you know, Mike Taylor said that his fingers were like painful,
and it was like, you know, sounds to me more
like torture rather than entertainment. So they certainly had an
even harder time than Carlos going in prison. And you know,
I think for Mike Taylor, the thing that was even
more painful than the kind of physical discomfort and hardship
was that he'd involved his son. And his son is
(26:05):
not a kind of hardened war veteran. He's a you know,
young guy in his twenties who probably completely adores his dad,
has always wanted to emulate his dad. So the chance
to be part, even a small part of his most
outlandish plot was probably just too exciting to turn down.
But then no one would have ever thought that he'd
end up spending you know, years in a Japanese prison
(26:27):
as well.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
And in the program Gone, I believe in one of
your sitdowns with him, he's quoted as saying something along
the lines of everybody knew the risks they were taking, yeah,
and so Gone does not have a lot of sympathy
or empathy for the tailors.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I was genuinely surprised how little he he had.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Big insight into Gone. That comment real incided to go.
Like I said, Going's about Gone totally, and he uses
people to get what he wants and to move along
the game board as he desires. And then he doesn't
really when he doesn't have many use for you anymore,
it seems like he just forgets about you. One thing
that I was confused about was what was the fee
(27:09):
that the tailors were told they would be paid for
the escape just the escape itself.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
So they were given expenses ahead of the escape, which
was I think one point three million dollars, which was
just to cover planes, private planes, you know, a reqi,
the pilots or you know all those. But you know,
I'm probably a bit for yourself as well. But Mike
had always said, after the fact, we will we'll talk money.
(27:37):
You know, the priority is getting you out after we
do it. And I think they did come to an
arrangement afterwards for some money in the in the low millions.
But then Mike and his son spent years in Japanese
prison and say they've got kind of a million dollars
of legal fees, which Goan had assured them he would pay,
(27:58):
and to date has he paid. He's paid them a
tiny fraction of that.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Is it difficult for them to take Goan's money? Is
that the legal issue?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Well, they can't touch him. I think. You know, Mike
has gone to Lebanon to meet Goan and kind of
appeal to his decency exactly. You know, it's like I
saved your life, unique brand of decency when Goane got
out of the box on the private jet and he
said to Mike Taylor, you know you saved my life,
and he really did. Like if it wasn't for Mike Taylor,
(28:30):
Carlos Gohen would still be in a Japanese prison and
Mike Taylor would have just been living a free man
in Massachusetts.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Where is Taylor.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Now he's back home in Massachusetts and where is his son?
His son is in Dubai kind of starting out various businesses.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I think is Taylor willing to talk about what happened
or is he better off not talking about what happened.
I mean, he served his time.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
He served his time. You know, he gave us his
first interview and Peter Taylor, and you know, he kind
of trusted we were doing it right. He didn't want
it just to be the Carlos Gohon show as well.
But I think he knows now because he has spoken
out about feeling let down by Gone and you know,
the legal fees not being paid. I think he recognizes
(29:14):
that that relationship is over. He's not going to receive
a pennymore.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Right now, when you're sitting down and doing the one
on ones with Gone, you did them in Lebanon. Correct? Yeah,
I'm assuming you did hours and hours of interviews with him,
correct or limited?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
He's he's an impatient guy. But as long as you're
on top topics he likes talking about. He'll give you
all day. It's when you start asking the tough questions
he suddenly starts looking at his watch.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
You know, ah, did you ask the tough questions and
we did.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Yeah. Yeah, so we asked about the omar and allegations.
We also asked, you know, his his dad was a
convicted murderer priest.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
That's amazing part of the story.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
And you know, as his wife said, you know, Gon
basically just shut down that whole topic. You know, he
was a kid, his father was accused of killing a priest,
was sentenced death. Goan was kind of six years old.
Must have been incredibly traumatic and formative. But it's a secret.
You know, no one talks about it. It's kind of
known about Lebanon, but had never been reported. Gone had
always refused to talk about it. But what was so
(30:12):
interesting is that his wife, Carol said, his whole life
has been trying to prove to his dad that he's
not his dad. And then you think, my god, he's
tried to prove that he's not a criminal like his dad,
but he's ended up breaking the law. You know, now
a fugitive in Lebanon. It's just like kind of come
full circle. So I thought that was just so revealing
(30:34):
of his mentality and drive.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
When you should something like this, it's presumed that there's
a lot of stuff that you leave out that you
might have wished you had left in.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Was that the case, I think almost everything is in there.
There were a few people who knew Gone very well,
who would only speak to us on background, but who
gave us the idea of him as a narcissist, and
you know, helped us understand and his psychology to kind
of join the dots of the facts we had. For instance,
(31:05):
we had the contents of his mobile phone when he
was arrested and he was like totting up his personal wealth,
and there was the final note was and if I
pull off this merger, I'll become a billionaire, and so like,
we had insights like that into him. But there are
a few people who had been very close to him
for a number of years that we would have liked
(31:25):
to go on camera. But in terms of the key players,
like having Gone and his wife and then the tailors,
those are the key players who who we just needed
to have to make it feel like we were telling
the full story.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Were you commissioned to do this? Did Apple commission you?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Or this was your pro Apple commissioned it? Yet?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
God, and if we go down your filmography Dispatches, Panorama,
This World, the Frontline episodes, Children of Guys are more
than a few of them. Commissions or you like commissions.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, it's a mixture. I mean the last film I
did before this was about Chernobyl, and that was my
idea that we then took to Sky and HBO. I'm
working on a Russia film now that's independently funded that
we will hope to premier at film festivals and then,
And that's been actually great working in a different way,
so you're not necessarily answering straight to a broadcast or streamer.
(32:24):
I think streamers are more prescriptive probably than traditional broadcasters.
I think I've been lucky so like Chernobyl, it was
a very clear concept of like telling the story entirely
through archive, a lot of it unseen, and you know,
I think you just try and make sure that you
accept the commission from people who buy into that vision.
(32:45):
So I've never had a situation where someone has wanted
the film to be something completely different.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
So pretty much get that sorted at upfront.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
You guys both want the same thing exactly, So I've
never felt arguments about what stays in a way get
to cut out.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
It'll be yeah, you'd get minor notes. But I think
like maybe, unlike with a movie where you have like
studio execs, you know, demanding major changes, I think from
the whole a doc director, at least in my experience,
you feel like it's always your own and you might
have to compromise on a couple of things, but it's
your vision that they're buying into. But maybe I've just
(33:22):
been lucky.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Now does go and roam the streets of Lebanon, of
be rude or where have you? Freely? Does he have
to mask himself? Because the guy that gets put in
a box in Japan and sent to Lebanon could justice
easily be kidnapped, put it in a box and shipped
to Japan and go you know, round trip if you will.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I mean, and we know who might put him in
the box and take him back. Right there's a guy
who's got a who's probably seeking revenge right now. But yeah,
he drives around with heavy security. You know, he has
armed guards. He's very careful about the way he travels,
and you know Lebanon, it's it's not just about sent
back to Japan, but Lebanon is a very unstable place.
(34:03):
So although it's you know, beautiful country, great food, good beaches.
You know, you can walk in the mountains. You know,
Hezbolau is one of the largest parties, and that you know,
it feels like it's constantly on the brink of economic collapse,
civil war. So he's trapped in a place that for
a man who's accustomed to flying the world and private
(34:23):
jets and living, you know, the life of ultimate freedom,
he's constrained. He's constrained and you know, who knows what
Lebanon will look like in five years.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Where's Kelly? Now?
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Kelly's back home in Nashville. So Kelly was his kind
of right hand man, the man who was kind of
tasked with keeping going at the company. As he said,
going was like the Michael Jordan of the car industry,
and it was my job to make sure he didn't
go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
His story in the show is painful because you really
see him suffer. Right, you know, the tailors committed a crime.
The tailors, although their hearts were in the right place,
they were immersed there is they took money. They committed
a crime. Gone is probably guilty of some of what
they say. He is at least, oh, they shoulday at
least it appears that way, at least a layman would
(35:09):
say that. But Kelly seems like the one person of
the project was purely innocent. Yeah, he didn't deserve any
of what happened to him.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Absolutely, And they tricked him into coming over to Japan
knowing that he needed back surgery. He was in agony,
so he had this incredibly long flight. They assumed that
he would just be desperate to go home. When they
confronted him with these charges, he'd sign whatever they wanted
and he'd throw going under the bus.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
I can't believe he got on the plane. I know,
why did he go? Who's his lawyer? I know?
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I know, well there is there is one person in
particular who was like Greg Kelly's protege, who is the
one who called him back, who he trusted mistakenly, and
you know they underestimated Greg Kelly. He was just like, well,
these charges aren't true. I can't possibly sign this, And
he ended up spending three years of his life stuck
in Japan.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
What are you working on now?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
So it's a film about Russian assassination, which is we're
submitting to festivals next year.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
But you finished.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
We're getting close to the end, but it feels like we're.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
No.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
So we're gonna hopefully premiere a festival early next year
and then take it from there.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
So when this is over, when you're done with Carlos, goone,
guys getting stuffed in boxes, Russian assassinations. I'm assuming the
project you're doing next is something like the History of Candy.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
That would be lovely.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
My thanks to documentary filmmaker James Jones. This episode was
recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced
by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer
is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Daniel Gingrich.
I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you
by iHeart Radio b
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