July 31, 2018 • 48 mins
This affectionate, funny conversation was recorded in front of a live audience at the Tribeca Film Festival, and garnered articles in the Hollywood Reporter, Vanity Fair, BET, and beyond. The headlines were varied: some reporters focused on Spike's 2 a.m. call from Brando, others the big reveal that De Niro turned down Do the Right Thing. Still others were captivated by the audience-inclusive Black Panther lovefest. Come for all that, but stay for Alec's one-man reenactment of a fight with his parents, and Alec and Spike's deep, passionate conversation about On the Waterfront. Regardless of which part you love most, BET got it right: "The iconic director held nothing back."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. Everybody.
Welcome Alec Baldwin and Spike Lake. I've been trying to
get Spike Lee on this program for a long time.
Finally we made it happen in front of a live
audience at this year's t Rebeca Film Festival. The deal
(00:25):
was we would each engage the other in a discussion
about one of our favorite movies of all time. Just
listing Spike Lee's films should be enough to establish his
place as one of the deans of American movie making.
Do the right thing. Malcolm X, Jungle Fever, She's got
to have it. They defined what it means to be
(00:46):
black in America and help Spike smash through Hollywood's racial
glass ceiling. And he's still at it with this year's
festival favorite Black Klansmen, in which I make an appearance
alongside stars John David Washington and Adam Driver. And now
our conversation at Spring Studios in New York as part
(01:06):
of the Rebeca Film Festival. We didn't rehearse any of this.
First of all, let me just explain to you what
a pain in the acid is to get him on
the phone. It is so painful to pull him and
text him and text him really sunny. He calls me
back like six, mus what's up? If I see a
(01:28):
number on my phone, I don't know the number, I
don't pick up and he has four numbers, tell me.
I mean, what I want to know first is because
I think this helps you know these kinds of origins
help us understand this kind of film appreciation. What was
(01:49):
movie going in your life when you were young, when
you were a child, Tell us where you grew up,
what kind of household you grew up in, and what
was the whole TV movie dynamics of your consumption of
that kind of stuff when you were a child. I
even I never knew that you'd even make a film
growing up. I grew up in the Republic of Brooklyn.
We were the first black family to move into Cobble Hill,
(02:12):
which is a predominantly a town in American Navy because
Copple is right by the docks, and the docks were
Italian American, and uh, we got called nig a couple
of times first week, But once my friends sold them,
weren't a hundred of other black families moving in behind me.
Then we were just cool after that, so nothe after that.
(02:33):
And then we my mother decided we gotta stop paying rents,
so we bought a Brownston on a Fourth Green for
forty five thousand dollars. They go for four million. Now
what year was that? Sixty? My father grew up in
four Queen on St. Jame's Place in Fulton's. Yeah, so
(02:55):
I remember you. Now you're a pain in the ask
then too, I couldn't get you on the phone back
at eight either. You were in four Green and sixty
eight because white flight had happened by then, and people
will move to Long Island. But what's the first movie
(03:22):
you saw on the big screen? The first movie I
can remember my mother took me to see really quick.
My father hated movies, but he loves sports. I got
my love of sports from my father. My mother loves movies,
but my since my father hated movies, I was my
mother's movie date. The first film I can remember my
(03:44):
mother took my late mother take me to. She took
me for Eastern Sunday Race musical, So Bye Bye Birdie.
And here's the thing though, that film impacted me so
much I even know it The opening credit sequence would
do the right thing. Rosie PRIs dancing. That came from
by by Bertie and Margaret. That's where it came from.
(04:07):
And I must have I must have been like seven
eight years old, but it just came out of nowhere?
Did I mean, this is a cliche, I guess, But
did that do something to you the first time you
saw a movie on a big screen? Did you sit
there and go? Yeah? But I didn't want them. It's
not like at that moment, but it was not who who?
(04:28):
Who makes a movie? So growing up, I wanted to
play a second base for New York Mets, but genetics
conspired against that happening. That's where I changed over to
the Yankees. But anyway, I wanted to be a porn star,
but you didn't have inspired against that too, So I
(04:51):
and I grew up wanted to be a filmmaker. But
I remember my mother taking me to see uh mean
streets when Bunny and Clyde came out. I said, can
I go? She said, I'm not taking you. I went
to see Buying Clyde. I had nightmares for two weeks
because I mean, up to that point, there was never
(05:13):
violent shown like that, and that that shook me for
two weeks. There was groundbreaking the pen. But the reason
why I chose On the Ward from besides is one
of the greatest films ever, is because I became very
friendly with Bud Schilberg, the great Great Bud Show. I
(05:36):
called him up. You know, back then you called people up.
I called Stanley Dining up, Colcazan up. You get people
on the phone. People don't realize how much that happens
in this business. And you know, I was a young filmmaker,
so you know. And and in fact, I called Billy
(05:56):
Waller up. He said, come on over. And I had
any time my go at people. I got my posters too,
is I got my postes, you know, just the the
sign but both but But and I we worked on
the script together, and But lived to be ninety four
or five. But when he was ninety we wrote a
(06:19):
script together called Save It's Joe Lewis about this relationship
between Joe Louis and Max Schmellen and his in In
the last two years of life, he would call me
every week and say, Spike, did you get the money yet?
Did you get the money yet? Because I had promised
him that I was gonna make this film before we passed.
I'm gonna make that promise happen. But we just couldn't
(06:39):
get together up. But it's amazing as an epic has
Hitler Gebels, fdr on the Roosevelt, lenol Horn, Joe Louis,
Max Schmellon Sugar Ray Robinson. I mean it's it's uh,
We're gonna get it done one day, you know now
when you when you talk about it in the same
(07:00):
is in my life where I would watch movies and
I thought that movie stars were harvested on another planet
and they flew them down here or something, you know.
I I the idea that myself or anybody like me
could get into the movie business was just absurd, you know,
to me. And when did that change for you? Meaning
when did movie making become a direction that you wanted
(07:20):
to set sailing? Oh? When I went to college. I
went to Morouse College in Atlanta, Georgia, and my first
two years the house. My first two years I was
the C plus D minor student. What was your major?
I didn't have a major at that point. And so
(07:42):
before second semest ended ended in my south ways trying
to go back to New York. But if some of
my advisor told me had to choose the major when
I come back in the fall, And I said why
and my advisors said, because you have exhaust all your electives.
So I came back to New York and it was
(08:03):
a summer ninth. There was an infamous summer nineteen seventy seven.
The Yankees won the World Series. The first summer disco
heat was horrible. Therefore you had the blackout and you
had David Berkle. It's on the stad so it's amazing.
Many minutes later I wrote the Corona script with the
(08:28):
Mike Criol Victor Clochio called Summer sam But anyway, New
York City was broke that summer. There's a famous Daily
News front page forward to New York dropped dead. There
you go, you up to that point. If you had
your workers permit, you get the job doing something. But
(08:49):
there were no jobs in New York City and I
and I didn't want to spend a whole summer playing
strata matic baseball on my stoop. So at a still
my friend today, her name is if you had to Johnston,
she was very smart. She if you go to Stifers
and you had to be smart. The test for New
York City was Brooklyn Tech, Science and Stuyverson. Brooklyn Tech
(09:13):
was it might down the block for me here science
and stops. She got in the I mean she was smart.
So one day and I swear my mother's grave this
this was not a mistake. I was sitting on my
stoop nothing to do, and the spirit told me, goes
ce Vieta. So I went to her house. She lived
(09:35):
at University Towers on on Waverley No. Willoughby and uh
will it Willoughby and Ashland Cross Street from l I U.
So she's studying. I mean she's studying the whole summer.
And so there's a box in the corner of the
room and I said, what's that. She said, that's a
Super eight camera. You can have it. I said, was
(09:58):
an other box? She said, that's the stupid that's the
cartridge of the Super eight. The goals into the thing,
says you can have it. I'm gonna be a doctor,
so I don't need this. She is a doctor. She
went to Princeton undergrad and with the Harvard Med School.
So that was not a mistake for me to go.
(10:19):
We at his house that day so now it had
so now there's something to do. So I spent the
whole summer not trying to be a filmmaker, but just
shooting stuff. So I shot The Blackout. It was the
first summer discos. Every weekend there was a block party
in DJs hook them their turntables and speakers to the
(10:40):
thing and then, uh, it was just a crazy summer.
So I came back to school in the fall and
declared my major. That's me a mask mun Case is
a major. Now more House didn't have that major, so
I so I took master Cass across the street at
Clark College. So you had Spellman, Morehouse, Clark College, Atlanta Versity,
(11:00):
and Morris Brown, these all black institutions really in the
same Mary in Atlanta. And there's a teacher There's there's
a professor his name is Dr herbiker Berger, still teaching there.
And I told him I had this film I just
shot from footage. I don't know what to do with this, said,
you make up feel with it. So masthemd cases quickly
with film, TV, journalism and broadcast, and he said, make
(11:28):
a documentary. To make a documentary of the film. The
film end up being called last awesome Brooklyn. I worked
all semester on it, and then many times when he
had he had the key to the film lab, and
twice a week he would stay extra so I could
spent another four hours edited. And he wasn't getting paid
(11:50):
for it either extra. Why do you think he did
that he saw something me. I didn't see it, right.
What did he see in you that you didn't see?
I don't know. I never asked him that teaches are
so important. I mean, I think you're going to somebody
giving you a hand. Explain that, by the way, because
(12:14):
I mean, I don't want to just kiss your butt
here all day, all night long, but because that's very
easy to do. I mean, let listen, I'm gonna get
I don't wanna get emotional here. But like in this business,
there's just something. I mean, you look at people who
are talented, and you really it just it humbles you,
it quiets you. You know, this man is one of
the greatest movie makers of the last fifty or seventy
five years in this country. Thank you, Thank you, expands
(12:36):
one of the greatest filmmakers alive. Thank you ever. And
so when you that mentorship thing to explain to people,
which even was news to me up until recently. You
don't guest teach, you're on the faculty and you teach
a course every year for how many years? Now, going
on teams a tenured film professor, you're gonna get a
(12:58):
paid check. Man fantastic he had paid now. But the
thing is that both my children went to n y U,
so that tuition ain't no joke. But my mother was
a teacher, my late mother, she taught at St. Ann's
in Brooken Heights on the legendary seven Balls. None of
(13:20):
my grandmother taught. My grandmother's grandma was a slave. Yes,
she graduated from Spellman. My mother, my mother graduated from Spellman,
My grandmother graduated Spellman. My father and grand grandfather and
grandfather graduated from Warhouse. My father's a freshman. Dr Martha
Came was a senior martincme the third and our classmates
(13:42):
the class seventy nine. But my grandmother taught art the
fifty years in Atlanta, George and fifty years she never
had one white student because of the Jim Crow laws
and in in South, specifically in Atlanta and the fifty years,
white students missed on the ate. Our teacher and my mother,
(14:02):
my grandmother fifty years saved their social Security checks for
grandchildren education. So says that was the first grandchild. She
put me through more house and n y U just
accumulation of the social Security checks over fifty years. M
and she gave me the seed money for my my
(14:25):
thesis film, Joe's Best Side Barbershop We Cut Heads is
one which wanted due to kemmy ward and a little
bit money for us. She's gonna have it the first film.
But but even more important than the money, and we
gotta go, we gotta talk about the films even more important.
And here's the thing though, here's what I say when
I when I speak in public, I always say this,
(14:46):
parents kill more dreams than anybody, so specifically if those
dreams that their children have had to do with the arts.
So I grew up in a very artistic families. So
when I said my tory, but I wanted to be
a filmmaker, nobody said, get the funk out of you're crazy.
(15:07):
No black filmmakers. You know, Melvin was not around anymore.
I wasn't making films. Ozzie Daves, Oscar Show Oscar Showmen
dead for many of me the years, but I only
got encouragement. And so often when a child a young
adult tells their parents, you know what, what are you
gonna major in poetry, ballet, dance, photography, whatever it is,
(15:32):
they're like, now they're black. Parents goes like this, as
long as your monkey has as black living in my house,
where are my clothes? Eat my food? We we didn't.
We didn't take out a second more of the house.
And I mean they got some points, you know, in
(15:54):
my house that played out like this. I'm going to
g W to study political science. I go up to
New York. Long story, but I go my audition for
the acting program and I get accepted, and I'm going
to go to the n y U Acting program. And
I explained to my parents how it's actually gonna cost
less for me to go to n y U, even
though it's more expensive school, because I requalified for all
(16:15):
this New York State based loans and scholarships, you know,
region scholarship, things that I've forfeited when I went to Washington.
So I call my family and I say, I'm gonna
leave GW. I'm not gonna go to law school. I'm
gonna go to n y U and study acting. And
my mother, I means, she screamed like a heart, like
like like Jamie Lee Curtis in a horror movie. She
was like. My mother was like, are you out of
your mind? Are you insane? She's screaming, and I go, no, no,
(16:38):
I go listen, I go. It's gonna cost you, guys,
let's money. And my father, let's hear him out. Let's
hear him out. Hear him out, Director Spike Lee. He
also teaches in the graduate film program at n y U.
And when we return, we'll do some analysis on our
chosen films. A Place in the Sun and on the Waterfront.
(17:10):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing now,
more of my conversation in front of a live audience
at the Tribeca Film Festival with director Spike Lee. Your
films obviously deal with a lot of themes of racial
injustice and stuff forth and struggle. Are themes that are
in your own films? Are they in Waterfront as well? Yeah?
(17:32):
Amazon Anderson Cooper. When this whole thing was happening, Kaepernick
and I watched on a ward from Again for the
million times and the stuff that Kaepernick was saying with
the same stuff did did. Marlon Brando was saying, I
want my rights. And you can see the mob was
(17:55):
the inn at the owners, because you have when you
have the shape up, had the things that guy was
giving out. And here here's a motherfucker here in the
scene to get under work the guy, the steward, whatever
he has to give you, like a coin. And so
after Marlon Brando, TERRYM. Lloyd testifies against Lee J. Cobb Friendly,
(18:21):
Johnny Friendly, he says, fucking, I'm going back to work.
So he's standing there and they're giving out a coin
to everybody, and then there's nobody there and there's some rummy,
some bump who's has his hands over the fire and
(18:42):
they put in and so I'm saying, the NFL, these
motherfucker's hired motherfucking quarterbacks who are horrible. So what they
did the term Lloyd, they're doing the Kaepernick. They were
I don't want to say the guy's name. The guy
had retired Chicago Bears quarterback, Go ahead say his name.
(19:04):
They took him my retirement, gave him a ten million
dollar contract. He was horrible. Kaepernick still can't get a
job so it was amazing. I mean, but Schilberg was
a visionary. And when I saw what they were doing
that Terry malloy, it was the same thing, and that
was doing the Kaepernick. I think that there's a lot
(19:28):
of legend and lore about that film. And you know
these stories of everybody's heard a million times about Brandon
doesn't do the off camera for Snicker and all that crap,
and you know, all that stuff which is not that
important is the movie about Kazan's Mia Colpa for you know,
ratting it. I'm glad what I've done to you, John Friendly,
(19:49):
I'm gonna keep on doing it, he says, you know
you know that that no apologies for that. But for me,
it's like, you know, Brandon was someone who was did
you know Brandon? Yeah, I met Branda time I was
gonna do I was in this wheel of my life
where c you know, CBS was gonna pay people big
money to do these m ow's, the old m o
(20:09):
W we're gonna do. We did. I did street Car
on Broadway, which we wound up doing on a for TV.
No no, no, no, no that, but we do we
do a street car and brought we do on TV.
But that was a waste of time. But they paid
everybody a lot of money. But like, why do it
for TV when it's in the in the movie, his movie?
And so I go see him because they want to
do Canton a hut tin roof and they want him
to play Big Daddy, but they're not going to insure him.
(20:31):
Long story short, as I go to his house, there's
a true story. I go to his house up on
Mulholland and I go there to beg him to do Canton,
notts and roof if they will ultimately insure him, which
they wouldn't, And I mean, I'll do my my my
tepid Brando impersonation. But I said, uh, I said, uh,
you know, I you know, one thing led to another.
(20:51):
I had lunch with her for four hours, and I said, uh,
uh you know, I did street Car on Broadway. Uh.
You know, like it was like six or seven years
before I heard about that from some friends of mine
that you did that. I heard you were very good
or not yes, And I heard you were very funny.
And I wish I had done more of that because
(21:12):
it's a very funny part and the character of Fanley
is very funny and I wish I had found more
of the humor myself. And there's a pause, and I went,
but it worked out pretty well for you just to
say it. Woun't you say? I mean, I mean, I
mean it went okay. Don't you think for how it
went over, you know, in the for the public, and uh,
but it's uh, I met him just that one time,
(21:34):
and uh, but what you see, he's interesting to me
because there's a couple of guys. I mean, I'm gonna
talk briefly about it from the actor's standpoint, which which
I can't help. But you know, but Gina was obviously
a big beacon for me. And there's those moments. There's
always a moment, uh, you know, John Mandolfice in the
hospital and Serpico has got the bullet hole in his
(21:55):
face and John Mandow puts the gold shield on him
and he doesn't want the gold helped to become a detective,
and finally he gets it in Macino, just he erupts
into this moment, this momentary sob this gasp of agony
for just a moment of his suffering, and I just
thought to myself, this is why I want al maybe
want to be an actor as much as anybody, as
(22:15):
much as anybody, but Gina was the one that maybe
one when he was one of them, you know, Yeah,
dog Day Surprico was one of my favorites. But and
Brando to Brando of course gets into that zone where
he doesn't care. You know, he's a prodigy and he
puts all the pieces together when he's twenty four years old.
Brando did a streetcar and brobery when it was twenty four.
(22:36):
I did it when I was thirty four. He I
never met him. You never did call me up two
o'clock in the morning and uh, I'm not gonna do imitational.
But he wanted me to do a film a Native Americans.
And I've never heard from after that. Well he yeah, yeah,
(23:00):
and then I found lady. He would call people late,
but Tidy got my number and I unbelieve it was
him at first. But my favorite line he said to
me was I sit in his house and I'm terrified
with him. I'm terrified, terrified. I meet people who are
my peers, you know, and my generation of actors, and
I admire some of them incredibly, but it's different when
you meet Kirk Douglas or Gregory Peck and some of
(23:21):
these guys I met. I mean, I was like, I
literally pissed my pants when I met Gregory Peck and
uh like almost literally and uh um. And then I'll
never forget. I'm in Brando's house and he said to me,
he says, he says, you know, you and I are
like two dogs that are sniffing each other. He said,
(23:42):
you're sniffing me and I'm sniffing you. And he said,
and oh god, oh god, I hate that. I hate that.
He said, So you say whatever you want to say,
and I'll say whatever I want to say. I mean,
just really, he just didn't want anybody to play him.
He hated that, you know, I mean, and it was,
it was. It was an amazing day. I have a
day I spent with him now. Um So in Waterfront.
(24:06):
One of the other things I love about this film
is that is that you know, Kazan, having directed in
the theater, he knew that you had to set the
table with every detail in terms of the acting in
their performances. That there was one week link in the chain.
I'm talking about Fred Gwynn when I later wanted to
play Herman Munster with a small role Lee J. Cobb
(24:28):
and one of his greatest roles. One of the great
great great actors in history, Lee J. Cobb, Steiger, great
great actor Maori s her FIRSTRMORI sat of course. I
mean the the acting is superlative from one end to
the other. In that cast. It's it's mind blowing. It's
and and uh two ton Tony Galento. You know it
was Bud that got all those Xbox Boxers in the
(24:52):
film because he knew them. Yeah, I mean, just the
acting is breathtaking. But also what I what I love
is that. Uh. Also what I love is it it
so nothing on the screen really in terms of set design,
in terms of costume it's it literally is the closest
I've ever seen to a motion picture that behaves like radio,
(25:16):
where you only focused on the ideas. You're not thrown
by a lot of pizzazz and a lot of shots
and a lot of it's so straight ahead and so honest.
You as a filmmaker when you first saw the film,
what did you think of it as a movie? How
you put together a movie? I loved it, and I
gotta give love the Lennon Bernstein score amazing and for
(25:37):
me it is one. I know, we gotta get to
your your selection. But what it has for one of
the most amazing endings of the movie with the score,
and they brought in James Wang Han the greats and
photographer to be in the roller skates. Boris Kaufman was
the cinematographer. But you see they brought in James wang
(25:59):
How I didn't know that he did that shot. Wow,
that's amazing. Brando's peel v as he's walking towards the
guy and you see everybody goes and stumbles in. Everybody
goes in behind him and they see the gate clothes
and you see, uh yeah, called Maldon and you recently
walk out. I mean that that and a lot of
(26:24):
great lines in that movie that uh um. I still
quote Brando whenever my wife would say to me. You know,
she'd said to me, you know, when are you gonna
take me to dinner or whatever? The line buzz And
you know, Brando's got the line in the in the
bar with the gun and he says, it's none of
your business. You have to say that line of people
(26:49):
like that will not work in the Lee household. Let
me tell you that it's none of your business, one
of your your own business, Lewis Lee. Uh. Now, now
another person in this film who I thought was that
I really was taken by was the art director. You
(27:10):
know what I do work I do on TCM and
things like that where I get into these details. Richard Day,
who did the art direction on this film, was nominated.
I think I don't have the statistics in front of me.
He was nominated for like nine Academy Awards and won
many Academy Awards for for a career that spanned from
Dark Angel and Dodsworth and dead End in the thirties
(27:33):
and to how Green was My Value? And then it
goes onto street Car and Waterfront in in the in
the in the fifties, and this guy one oscars over
the arc of like a two decades and uh. And
of course Leonard Bernstein score, which uh, you know, the
(27:54):
New York Philharmonic has a program that I'm the co
producer I called the Art of the Score, which we
played the music. I have to picture, particularly films that
have classical repertoire, with Kubrick being the uh, the ultimate
example of that, and showing films like you went to
Science say again, went the Bronx very exactly exactly Kubrick,
you know two thousand and one, which we're showing again
(28:14):
for the second time next year, Barry Linded and so forth.
But we've also played films where to have they just
have lush, non classical score. Although burn Steins part of
that world, and we showed Waterfront and and the Philharmonic
played Waterfront In said though he didn't like the way
he wrote more music than was put in. Yeah, so
(28:35):
he wasn't happy with the way now turn out. Can
we talk about Shelley Winters. You Go, You Go is
amazing in a place in the sun, and when I
saw her role, automatically automatically thought about her and Night
of the Hunter. It's almost like the same, this magic
(29:02):
woman that just can't get it right and with the
wrong guy, and she got murdered. In both films. Here's
Cliff gleaming with his beauty and she's gleaming with her beauty.
But the acting of Shelley Winters, her performance is unbelievable
in this movie. She's incredible, But there are very few people.
You can't shoot two people this close. And the famous
(29:23):
kissing scene between Montgomery Clift and Elizabeth Taylor. You can't
shoot two people that close and hold the camera that
close for too long unless you have two perfect looking people.
And in this film you have the you have the
most beautiful man, or one of them that ever lived
in the history of the movies, and the most beautiful woman.
I mean, it's it's like a cinematic like a confection,
(29:45):
you know. I mean, in terms of the delight you
feel from watching these people. The scene when they meet
and he's shooting pool at the party and she walks in.
I mean, there's there's there's so much for the eye.
There's so much beauty in this film and just flat
out uti between these two people. And then beyond that
is this horrible drama of what happens to to him
(30:06):
and to Shelley Winter. There's no spoiler alert here, but
it's this film. The first time I ever saw this film,
I remember he's on a television I think. I mean
a lot of these films I saw on TV because
when I was a kid, Channel nine, right there you go.
I mean, people, I always say the same tired thing
all the time about this, but you know, no HBO,
no VS, VCRs. When I was a kid, it was
(30:29):
Channel eleven, Channel five, and Channel uh nine would make
licensing agreements with a studio. Probably i'd of a cycle.
Do you remember, Okay, I'm gonna come out a million
dollar movie with the theme from Gone with the Wind.
So I see this movie on TV and I remember, like,
it's not even about sexuality, I don't think, but just
(30:50):
kind of sitting there with my mouth up and going,
oh my god. You know, I think I'd probably kill
Shelley Winters for Elizabeth Taylor too. And that's not a
hard choice, but that but that movie doesn't mean you
hear you've got the guy though they both played that.
I mean, Elizabeth Taylor was a breathtaking actress, and and
(31:11):
and and Clift was it was it was a brilliant actor.
And then you see the juxtaposition between Sheldon win Is,
you know, a lower lower class and you know that
feels really about classism. Even though Montgomery is Eastman, he's
like not really part of the real family, so he's
(31:32):
trying to get up the ladder. Two, I have to
take advantage of you being here for this kind of thing. Now,
what do you do when you direct the film? Because
they always say that the directors then and now. It's
always been the same that they cast. Well, you try
your best to get who you want for the role.
You have a dream cast, and you try to get
(31:53):
them in terms of their availability, and there there there
there their desire to be in the film, and can
you afford them, and so all those things come together,
which I want you to speak about for people to
understand what an extraordinarily difficult thing that is to do.
I meaning, you're you're gonna make a film, Spike Lee
is gonna make a film, and you're gonna have anybody
in your films. People are begging to work with you,
(32:13):
and sometimes you don't get who you want in the film. True. Well,
since we are here at the Tribeca Film Festival, the
role of sal I offered to Mr de Niro, You
want to do it, that son of a bitch. No,
(32:34):
I think it's Daniel. You got nominated, and I think that,
which I mean, I love Bob and I wanted my film,
but de Nirol might have tilted. It was meant to
be asemble piece do the right thing. You mean you
(32:54):
had two taro, I mean every was in it, but
no one's really Richard Edson the Great Ruby, d Ozzy Davis.
You no but Sam Sam Samuel Jackson and he was
saying back then, and Carlo Jean Casposito, Rosie Perez. That's
(33:16):
her first film is Martin Lawrences first film, Robin Harris
first film, The Late Robin Harris. So it's been my
experience things happen for the most part the way it
should be, because that's not the only time where I
wanted someone and I didn't get them and it turned
out for the best because I got somebody who just
(33:39):
fits better. So and it also like its like a
sports team, you know. I mean one year the Lakers
head like by all stars starting, they were terrible because
it was no there's no chemistry and everybody's gonna be starting.
Everybody can't be like it just needs to come together.
It's interesting because you hear that across the board. You
(34:02):
have an ensemble of people and if you change one
little thing, it would upset the now. Now without naming names,
because one of my goals into you know, embarrassing anybody.
But when you make films as a as a director,
and your films are dramas, they're they're they're they're acting,
is at the four. You don't do action films and
space movies and all this other crap. I'm sorry, I
(34:23):
didn't mean that. Um Um, what I meant was, uh,
because we love space movie, let's face. But when you're directing,
what is directing performance for you? Now? Because like, you
bring these people in, and you bring people who are
going to play the role, and you you assume they're
(34:45):
pretty good to go. But what happens when it's not working?
How involved are you involved? And like walking up to people,
take them aside and go, hey man, this is what
I need in the scene. Yeah, but you can't have
to be done you know, in a whisper if you
do that, I felt you're gonna lose actor, even if
you take him aside and do it. Know what I'm saying,
(35:05):
It has to be done private exactly. I agree with you.
Oh no, it should be private, you know. So you
really here's the thing, don't you try to head that
stuff off in rehearsal. You can't be on the on
the day while you're shooting hundred of people, you know,
crew members, and you're discussing the character and the ark
(35:25):
all that stuff. That stuff has to be worked out
in rehearsal. But sometimes whether I'm having a bad dare
actor having a bad day, things that happen. You're just
trying to go through it, but and make sure that
at the end we're done that we talked. So you
gotta get you gotta work that shipped out so it's squashed,
(35:48):
done with and you could continue in good spirits. I'm
reminded of my dear, dear friend who passed away, Marvin Worth.
You know, Marvin Bruduce Malcolm X. Give me an example.
Maybe he's one producers who actually contribute to help you
make the movie you want to make. Marvin bought the
rights to the autobiography of Malcolm X, as told by
(36:12):
Alex Haley. I mean really really many years ago, and
he's been trying to make it. Set lamed a whole
bunch of people. One time, Richard Pryor supposed to play him,
and he said, he sent me letters saying you want
(36:34):
to be involved as film, So I never I never
got the letters. So then I was reading the papers
that Denzel Washington was gonna play Malcolm X. He had
already done the play a Broadway When Chickens Come When
Chickens Come Home, The roost and the director was gonna
be Norman Jewison, and I said to myself self, hold
(36:58):
the funk up. Yeah, and Norman great director in the
Heat and the Night. I mean he's done many, many
fine films. And I just began to talk about a
little bit and then Marven Worth called me, says, Spike,
stop talking. Let's have you and Norman sit down, and
(37:24):
so we we met. I mean, this is not a
new story, it's old. And uh, Norman want to note
why I want to do it? And I told him
and he gracefully said, okay. He didn't have to do that.
He had the gig. He was a director, he was
the one the Marvel Worth chose and also Warner Brothers.
(37:49):
So I've always had the respect for Mr Jewison because
he could have said, fuck you, Spike, I don't care
who you are. I'm directing this feel. But there are
producers and this is I guess what my question is,
because a lot of people that that's an intangible for
a lot of people. What producers do beyond, as they say,
bringing a vital element to the table, the script, the star,
(38:10):
the money from the studio. They've got the juice with
the studio, what have you. But there are producers who
have actually have they've helped you make your films. If
they've they've contributed to man, there's no way pout. I've
been involved. I was directed Malcolm X without the late
great Marvin Worth. I went to a screening. Marvin invited
me to a screening, uh at the Academy in uh,
(38:32):
not the DJ but the Academy, you know, one of
the great great screening rooms in all of Los Angeles,
which is saying a lot. And then we went to
that screening of Malcolm X there and uh, I gotta say,
it's one of your greatest films. That's a great, great film,
Malcolm X. You had a great job. All that goes
to Mr Denzel Washington. I know we're talking all the films.
(38:52):
I have to just say this real quick because tomorrow
let's see Denzel Washington. Dad the opening of Life coming
coming four three curtain call. It's like a nine right, ye,
not that long. But people ask me all the time,
you know, we uh, Denzel more better Malcolm X. He
(39:15):
got game inside man. So it's been a minute. But
Denzel people asked me about his performance. He prepared a
year before. He told his agent, don't give me any
more work, learned to praying Arabic, speaking Arabic, learning to
read the Koran, cut out pork, cut out alcohol, because
(39:41):
he under Denzel understands that just sounded like somebody or
looking like that's just surface and he and he knew
that if he did the job need to be done,
that Malcolm's spirit will come into him. I put my
(40:02):
hand on a stack of Bibles. There was a scene.
All the speeches in the film were Malcolm's words, and
there was one speech. I mean, he was killing it
and I'm looking at him. I got the mom to
him looking at Ernest right here, my great cinematograher, Ernest Dickinson.
So I see that, to see him looking at the sides.
(40:23):
And the scene is about the end. Some great called
cut and he keeps going, we're shooting film, and he
went off another two minutes and finally Ernest a Spike.
We ran out. So I woke up to Denzel. He's
almost like in a daze. I said, d what was that?
(40:44):
So what are you doing? He said, Spike, I don't know.
I can't tell you what I just said. That ship
can't happen if you don't prepare for it. He worked
a year and and and asked anybody was on the
set that day? We thought we saw Malcolm Front. Do
you know? You know what I love about that film? Also,
it's tough sometimes if you play if the film calls
(41:06):
for an actress, a woman to play that role of
the wife of the the you know, it's a supporting role.
And uh, what I love was I thought, if Angela
La Bassett was my wife, nothing I couldn't do either,
you know, and brought it. She was so wanted. Angela
(41:27):
Bassett is such a great actress and she's so wonderful
on that film. So I understand that we're gonna take
some questions. You know, what's up? Spoke? My name is Chris,
I'm from Virginia, and I just wanted to ask you
what do you think of Black Panther? My brother, I've
(41:48):
seen it four times me too. I look at the
world now differently before Black Panther and at the Black
Panther that that should change everything, especially for people of color. Now,
wait a second, I mean I think in these times,
in these modern times where we're trying to all be
more sensitive and more inclusive, don't you want to know
(42:09):
what I thought a black panther? I mean, do you
want to ask me? Go ahead, I was actually gonna
ask you about Infinity Wars and yeah, my brother, you
bought the catsups. You know it was the down. We're
(42:32):
give us the next question. Next question, can you tell
us a little bit about your new movie, The Black
Clansman and what that's based on. The Black Clans was
based on the book my Man Hair is in It.
Ron Stalwarf was the first after American policeman in Carrell Springs.
(42:56):
He ended up infiltrating the clan reading the paper, and
the clan put it at in paper when we need
new members. So ron Stalward thinks as a joke, you
know it's a Google. So she calls up and thinking
as a joke, he leaves. They don't pick up as
(43:19):
a voicemails. He leaves his real name and phone number,
and the clan calls back and said, we want you
to come down for inter of you. So since he's
an African American, he can't really show up for the
inter of you, so he has to sin, my man,
(43:40):
is that a Boston Red Sox hat? There? Thank you?
Row seven twelve, Row seven that be oh boy, So
he has to get a white police officer to play him.
That's Adam dry Her And so we're in official competition
(44:05):
that can and it opens August tenth, so check it out.
And who plays the lead? The lead is played by
John David Washington, Denzel's eldest son. Denzel's son. You might
have seen him in Ballers. We have time for one more,
one more um in the scope of all of your projects,
(44:25):
what is the work that has been most transformative and
what is the legacy that you hope to leave. She
was actually looking at you. She pretended it was for
both of us, but she was looking right at you
when she said that it's okay, It's okay. I would
say I did a documentary called Full Little Girls, which
(44:49):
is about the bombing of the nine three Birmingham Church,
the sixth Street Baptist Church, and Broma, Obama. Full of
girls were killed. Jago who were in the and FBI
knew who did it a week after. One of the
guy's name was Donna Mine Bob. His nickname was Dna
night Bob. And for many years the case was cold
(45:16):
and before the film opened at the film form, Karen
Cooper and a couple of days before the open the
FBI called me and they said, want to see the film.
The day after the film opened, they reopened that case.
After many, many years, they went to trial. It was
(45:38):
Motherfucker's died in prison. True story. They they killed, murder
those full little girls and just went about their lives,
you know, and they died in I think I don't
(46:00):
know how many wanted to, but they died in prison. Well,
I mean, this is gonna sound corny and sound stupid.
When I was on my phone by the way a
moment ago, trying to look up something about him, and
my wife, who's here, texted me and said, put your
phone down. She literally texted me, she wrote, enough with
(46:23):
the phone. My legacy is not really that much about Honestly,
I don't really think about the work I do that much.
It comes and goes. It's sand castles, you know, I mean,
the ocean comes. It's the moment you have with people.
I'm doing The Edge with Tony Hopkins, and he and
I would have lunch together and we would do dueling
Richard Burton impersonations together over lunch. And I'll never forget
(46:46):
that to the day I die, and I wanted to
work with him, and he called me recently I had
me comeing to a movie with him, and it was
it was really, I mean it was. We did one
day I shot this little thing. I won't give it away,
but what a great honor it was to get good.
I did a movie with Ed Norton. Ed directed this
wonderful movie mother Lis Brooklyn. I'm in this crowd with
people I worship, you know, uh Cherry Jones and Connavali
(47:07):
and uh Willem to poe him on the set with
him going oh man, this is what it's all about.
You know. To me, it's who you work with. I
got to do a Good Shepherd with Bob Denier would
walk up to me and uh Matt Damon and he
would talk to me, and literally, after like thirty seconds,
I would I mean, I couldn't hear him. I went deaf.
Oh the movie starts screening it in my head and
(47:28):
he talked to me, give me the direction. I look
at my go. I'm sorry because you repeat that. I
wasn't listening to a word you said. Just now, Hey,
look at me go. You're very good, Alec, very good
to be with those people, to be with them, And
with that in mind, would you all please join me
in thanking our guests. One of the greatest movie makers
in history. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Spike Lee's
(48:01):
Black Klansmen will be in theaters August tenth. I'm Alec
Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing, M
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. Everybody.
Welcome Alec Baldwin and Spike Lake. I've been trying to
get Spike Lee on this program for a long time.
Finally we made it happen in front of a live
audience at this year's t Rebeca Film Festival. The deal
(00:25):
was we would each engage the other in a discussion
about one of our favorite movies of all time. Just
listing Spike Lee's films should be enough to establish his
place as one of the deans of American movie making.
Do the right thing. Malcolm X, Jungle Fever, She's got
to have it. They defined what it means to be
(00:46):
black in America and help Spike smash through Hollywood's racial
glass ceiling. And he's still at it with this year's
festival favorite Black Klansmen, in which I make an appearance
alongside stars John David Washington and Adam Driver. And now
our conversation at Spring Studios in New York as part
(01:06):
of the Rebeca Film Festival. We didn't rehearse any of this.
First of all, let me just explain to you what
a pain in the acid is to get him on
the phone. It is so painful to pull him and
text him and text him really sunny. He calls me
back like six, mus what's up? If I see a
(01:28):
number on my phone, I don't know the number, I
don't pick up and he has four numbers, tell me.
I mean, what I want to know first is because
I think this helps you know these kinds of origins
help us understand this kind of film appreciation. What was
(01:49):
movie going in your life when you were young, when
you were a child, Tell us where you grew up,
what kind of household you grew up in, and what
was the whole TV movie dynamics of your consumption of
that kind of stuff when you were a child. I
even I never knew that you'd even make a film
growing up. I grew up in the Republic of Brooklyn.
We were the first black family to move into Cobble Hill,
(02:12):
which is a predominantly a town in American Navy because
Copple is right by the docks, and the docks were
Italian American, and uh, we got called nig a couple
of times first week, But once my friends sold them,
weren't a hundred of other black families moving in behind me.
Then we were just cool after that, so nothe after that.
(02:33):
And then we my mother decided we gotta stop paying rents,
so we bought a Brownston on a Fourth Green for
forty five thousand dollars. They go for four million. Now
what year was that? Sixty? My father grew up in
four Queen on St. Jame's Place in Fulton's. Yeah, so
(02:55):
I remember you. Now you're a pain in the ask
then too, I couldn't get you on the phone back
at eight either. You were in four Green and sixty
eight because white flight had happened by then, and people
will move to Long Island. But what's the first movie
(03:22):
you saw on the big screen? The first movie I
can remember my mother took me to see really quick.
My father hated movies, but he loves sports. I got
my love of sports from my father. My mother loves movies,
but my since my father hated movies, I was my
mother's movie date. The first film I can remember my
(03:44):
mother took my late mother take me to. She took
me for Eastern Sunday Race musical, So Bye Bye Birdie.
And here's the thing though, that film impacted me so
much I even know it The opening credit sequence would
do the right thing. Rosie PRIs dancing. That came from
by by Bertie and Margaret. That's where it came from.
(04:07):
And I must have I must have been like seven
eight years old, but it just came out of nowhere?
Did I mean, this is a cliche, I guess, But
did that do something to you the first time you
saw a movie on a big screen? Did you sit
there and go? Yeah? But I didn't want them. It's
not like at that moment, but it was not who who?
(04:28):
Who makes a movie? So growing up, I wanted to
play a second base for New York Mets, but genetics
conspired against that happening. That's where I changed over to
the Yankees. But anyway, I wanted to be a porn star,
but you didn't have inspired against that too, So I
(04:51):
and I grew up wanted to be a filmmaker. But
I remember my mother taking me to see uh mean
streets when Bunny and Clyde came out. I said, can
I go? She said, I'm not taking you. I went
to see Buying Clyde. I had nightmares for two weeks
because I mean, up to that point, there was never
(05:13):
violent shown like that, and that that shook me for
two weeks. There was groundbreaking the pen. But the reason
why I chose On the Ward from besides is one
of the greatest films ever, is because I became very
friendly with Bud Schilberg, the great Great Bud Show. I
(05:36):
called him up. You know, back then you called people up.
I called Stanley Dining up, Colcazan up. You get people
on the phone. People don't realize how much that happens
in this business. And you know, I was a young filmmaker,
so you know. And and in fact, I called Billy
(05:56):
Waller up. He said, come on over. And I had
any time my go at people. I got my posters too,
is I got my postes, you know, just the the
sign but both but But and I we worked on
the script together, and But lived to be ninety four
or five. But when he was ninety we wrote a
(06:19):
script together called Save It's Joe Lewis about this relationship
between Joe Louis and Max Schmellen and his in In
the last two years of life, he would call me
every week and say, Spike, did you get the money yet?
Did you get the money yet? Because I had promised
him that I was gonna make this film before we passed.
I'm gonna make that promise happen. But we just couldn't
(06:39):
get together up. But it's amazing as an epic has
Hitler Gebels, fdr on the Roosevelt, lenol Horn, Joe Louis,
Max Schmellon Sugar Ray Robinson. I mean it's it's uh,
We're gonna get it done one day, you know now
when you when you talk about it in the same
(07:00):
is in my life where I would watch movies and
I thought that movie stars were harvested on another planet
and they flew them down here or something, you know.
I I the idea that myself or anybody like me
could get into the movie business was just absurd, you know,
to me. And when did that change for you? Meaning
when did movie making become a direction that you wanted
(07:20):
to set sailing? Oh? When I went to college. I
went to Morouse College in Atlanta, Georgia, and my first
two years the house. My first two years I was
the C plus D minor student. What was your major?
I didn't have a major at that point. And so
(07:42):
before second semest ended ended in my south ways trying
to go back to New York. But if some of
my advisor told me had to choose the major when
I come back in the fall, And I said why
and my advisors said, because you have exhaust all your electives.
So I came back to New York and it was
(08:03):
a summer ninth. There was an infamous summer nineteen seventy seven.
The Yankees won the World Series. The first summer disco
heat was horrible. Therefore you had the blackout and you
had David Berkle. It's on the stad so it's amazing.
Many minutes later I wrote the Corona script with the
(08:28):
Mike Criol Victor Clochio called Summer sam But anyway, New
York City was broke that summer. There's a famous Daily
News front page forward to New York dropped dead. There
you go, you up to that point. If you had
your workers permit, you get the job doing something. But
(08:49):
there were no jobs in New York City and I
and I didn't want to spend a whole summer playing
strata matic baseball on my stoop. So at a still
my friend today, her name is if you had to Johnston,
she was very smart. She if you go to Stifers
and you had to be smart. The test for New
York City was Brooklyn Tech, Science and Stuyverson. Brooklyn Tech
(09:13):
was it might down the block for me here science
and stops. She got in the I mean she was smart.
So one day and I swear my mother's grave this
this was not a mistake. I was sitting on my
stoop nothing to do, and the spirit told me, goes
ce Vieta. So I went to her house. She lived
(09:35):
at University Towers on on Waverley No. Willoughby and uh
will it Willoughby and Ashland Cross Street from l I U.
So she's studying. I mean she's studying the whole summer.
And so there's a box in the corner of the
room and I said, what's that. She said, that's a
Super eight camera. You can have it. I said, was
(09:58):
an other box? She said, that's the stupid that's the
cartridge of the Super eight. The goals into the thing,
says you can have it. I'm gonna be a doctor,
so I don't need this. She is a doctor. She
went to Princeton undergrad and with the Harvard Med School.
So that was not a mistake for me to go.
(10:19):
We at his house that day so now it had
so now there's something to do. So I spent the
whole summer not trying to be a filmmaker, but just
shooting stuff. So I shot The Blackout. It was the
first summer discos. Every weekend there was a block party
in DJs hook them their turntables and speakers to the
(10:40):
thing and then, uh, it was just a crazy summer.
So I came back to school in the fall and
declared my major. That's me a mask mun Case is
a major. Now more House didn't have that major, so
I so I took master Cass across the street at
Clark College. So you had Spellman, Morehouse, Clark College, Atlanta Versity,
(11:00):
and Morris Brown, these all black institutions really in the
same Mary in Atlanta. And there's a teacher There's there's
a professor his name is Dr herbiker Berger, still teaching there.
And I told him I had this film I just
shot from footage. I don't know what to do with this, said,
you make up feel with it. So masthemd cases quickly
with film, TV, journalism and broadcast, and he said, make
(11:28):
a documentary. To make a documentary of the film. The
film end up being called last awesome Brooklyn. I worked
all semester on it, and then many times when he
had he had the key to the film lab, and
twice a week he would stay extra so I could
spent another four hours edited. And he wasn't getting paid
(11:50):
for it either extra. Why do you think he did
that he saw something me. I didn't see it, right.
What did he see in you that you didn't see?
I don't know. I never asked him that teaches are
so important. I mean, I think you're going to somebody
giving you a hand. Explain that, by the way, because
(12:14):
I mean, I don't want to just kiss your butt
here all day, all night long, but because that's very
easy to do. I mean, let listen, I'm gonna get
I don't wanna get emotional here. But like in this business,
there's just something. I mean, you look at people who
are talented, and you really it just it humbles you,
it quiets you. You know, this man is one of
the greatest movie makers of the last fifty or seventy
five years in this country. Thank you, Thank you, expands
(12:36):
one of the greatest filmmakers alive. Thank you ever. And
so when you that mentorship thing to explain to people,
which even was news to me up until recently. You
don't guest teach, you're on the faculty and you teach
a course every year for how many years? Now, going
on teams a tenured film professor, you're gonna get a
(12:58):
paid check. Man fantastic he had paid now. But the
thing is that both my children went to n y U,
so that tuition ain't no joke. But my mother was
a teacher, my late mother, she taught at St. Ann's
in Brooken Heights on the legendary seven Balls. None of
(13:20):
my grandmother taught. My grandmother's grandma was a slave. Yes,
she graduated from Spellman. My mother, my mother graduated from Spellman,
My grandmother graduated Spellman. My father and grand grandfather and
grandfather graduated from Warhouse. My father's a freshman. Dr Martha
Came was a senior martincme the third and our classmates
(13:42):
the class seventy nine. But my grandmother taught art the
fifty years in Atlanta, George and fifty years she never
had one white student because of the Jim Crow laws
and in in South, specifically in Atlanta and the fifty years,
white students missed on the ate. Our teacher and my mother,
(14:02):
my grandmother fifty years saved their social Security checks for
grandchildren education. So says that was the first grandchild. She
put me through more house and n y U just
accumulation of the social Security checks over fifty years. M
and she gave me the seed money for my my
(14:25):
thesis film, Joe's Best Side Barbershop We Cut Heads is
one which wanted due to kemmy ward and a little
bit money for us. She's gonna have it the first film.
But but even more important than the money, and we
gotta go, we gotta talk about the films even more important.
And here's the thing though, here's what I say when
I when I speak in public, I always say this,
(14:46):
parents kill more dreams than anybody, so specifically if those
dreams that their children have had to do with the arts.
So I grew up in a very artistic families. So
when I said my tory, but I wanted to be
a filmmaker, nobody said, get the funk out of you're crazy.
(15:07):
No black filmmakers. You know, Melvin was not around anymore.
I wasn't making films. Ozzie Daves, Oscar Show Oscar Showmen
dead for many of me the years, but I only
got encouragement. And so often when a child a young
adult tells their parents, you know what, what are you
gonna major in poetry, ballet, dance, photography, whatever it is,
(15:32):
they're like, now they're black. Parents goes like this, as
long as your monkey has as black living in my house,
where are my clothes? Eat my food? We we didn't.
We didn't take out a second more of the house.
And I mean they got some points, you know, in
(15:54):
my house that played out like this. I'm going to
g W to study political science. I go up to
New York. Long story, but I go my audition for
the acting program and I get accepted, and I'm going
to go to the n y U Acting program. And
I explained to my parents how it's actually gonna cost
less for me to go to n y U, even
though it's more expensive school, because I requalified for all
(16:15):
this New York State based loans and scholarships, you know,
region scholarship, things that I've forfeited when I went to Washington.
So I call my family and I say, I'm gonna
leave GW. I'm not gonna go to law school. I'm
gonna go to n y U and study acting. And
my mother, I means, she screamed like a heart, like
like like Jamie Lee Curtis in a horror movie. She
was like. My mother was like, are you out of
your mind? Are you insane? She's screaming, and I go, no, no,
(16:38):
I go listen, I go. It's gonna cost you, guys,
let's money. And my father, let's hear him out. Let's
hear him out. Hear him out, Director Spike Lee. He
also teaches in the graduate film program at n y U.
And when we return, we'll do some analysis on our
chosen films. A Place in the Sun and on the Waterfront.
(17:10):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing now,
more of my conversation in front of a live audience
at the Tribeca Film Festival with director Spike Lee. Your
films obviously deal with a lot of themes of racial
injustice and stuff forth and struggle. Are themes that are
in your own films? Are they in Waterfront as well? Yeah?
(17:32):
Amazon Anderson Cooper. When this whole thing was happening, Kaepernick
and I watched on a ward from Again for the
million times and the stuff that Kaepernick was saying with
the same stuff did did. Marlon Brando was saying, I
want my rights. And you can see the mob was
(17:55):
the inn at the owners, because you have when you
have the shape up, had the things that guy was
giving out. And here here's a motherfucker here in the
scene to get under work the guy, the steward, whatever
he has to give you, like a coin. And so
after Marlon Brando, TERRYM. Lloyd testifies against Lee J. Cobb Friendly,
(18:21):
Johnny Friendly, he says, fucking, I'm going back to work.
So he's standing there and they're giving out a coin
to everybody, and then there's nobody there and there's some rummy,
some bump who's has his hands over the fire and
(18:42):
they put in and so I'm saying, the NFL, these
motherfucker's hired motherfucking quarterbacks who are horrible. So what they
did the term Lloyd, they're doing the Kaepernick. They were
I don't want to say the guy's name. The guy
had retired Chicago Bears quarterback, Go ahead say his name.
(19:04):
They took him my retirement, gave him a ten million
dollar contract. He was horrible. Kaepernick still can't get a
job so it was amazing. I mean, but Schilberg was
a visionary. And when I saw what they were doing
that Terry malloy, it was the same thing, and that
was doing the Kaepernick. I think that there's a lot
(19:28):
of legend and lore about that film. And you know
these stories of everybody's heard a million times about Brandon
doesn't do the off camera for Snicker and all that crap,
and you know, all that stuff which is not that
important is the movie about Kazan's Mia Colpa for you know,
ratting it. I'm glad what I've done to you, John Friendly,
(19:49):
I'm gonna keep on doing it, he says, you know
you know that that no apologies for that. But for me,
it's like, you know, Brandon was someone who was did
you know Brandon? Yeah, I met Branda time I was
gonna do I was in this wheel of my life
where c you know, CBS was gonna pay people big
money to do these m ow's, the old m o
(20:09):
W we're gonna do. We did. I did street Car
on Broadway, which we wound up doing on a for TV.
No no, no, no, no that, but we do we
do a street car and brought we do on TV.
But that was a waste of time. But they paid
everybody a lot of money. But like, why do it
for TV when it's in the in the movie, his movie?
And so I go see him because they want to
do Canton a hut tin roof and they want him
to play Big Daddy, but they're not going to insure him.
(20:31):
Long story short, as I go to his house, there's
a true story. I go to his house up on
Mulholland and I go there to beg him to do Canton,
notts and roof if they will ultimately insure him, which
they wouldn't, And I mean, I'll do my my my
tepid Brando impersonation. But I said, uh, I said, uh,
you know, I you know, one thing led to another.
(20:51):
I had lunch with her for four hours, and I said, uh,
uh you know, I did street Car on Broadway. Uh.
You know, like it was like six or seven years
before I heard about that from some friends of mine
that you did that. I heard you were very good
or not yes, And I heard you were very funny.
And I wish I had done more of that because
(21:12):
it's a very funny part and the character of Fanley
is very funny and I wish I had found more
of the humor myself. And there's a pause, and I went,
but it worked out pretty well for you just to
say it. Woun't you say? I mean, I mean, I
mean it went okay. Don't you think for how it
went over, you know, in the for the public, and uh,
but it's uh, I met him just that one time,
(21:34):
and uh, but what you see, he's interesting to me
because there's a couple of guys. I mean, I'm gonna
talk briefly about it from the actor's standpoint, which which
I can't help. But you know, but Gina was obviously
a big beacon for me. And there's those moments. There's
always a moment, uh, you know, John Mandolfice in the
hospital and Serpico has got the bullet hole in his
(21:55):
face and John Mandow puts the gold shield on him
and he doesn't want the gold helped to become a detective,
and finally he gets it in Macino, just he erupts
into this moment, this momentary sob this gasp of agony
for just a moment of his suffering, and I just
thought to myself, this is why I want al maybe
want to be an actor as much as anybody, as
(22:15):
much as anybody, but Gina was the one that maybe
one when he was one of them, you know, Yeah,
dog Day Surprico was one of my favorites. But and
Brando to Brando of course gets into that zone where
he doesn't care. You know, he's a prodigy and he
puts all the pieces together when he's twenty four years old.
Brando did a streetcar and brobery when it was twenty four.
(22:36):
I did it when I was thirty four. He I
never met him. You never did call me up two
o'clock in the morning and uh, I'm not gonna do imitational.
But he wanted me to do a film a Native Americans.
And I've never heard from after that. Well he yeah, yeah,
(23:00):
and then I found lady. He would call people late,
but Tidy got my number and I unbelieve it was
him at first. But my favorite line he said to
me was I sit in his house and I'm terrified
with him. I'm terrified, terrified. I meet people who are
my peers, you know, and my generation of actors, and
I admire some of them incredibly, but it's different when
you meet Kirk Douglas or Gregory Peck and some of
(23:21):
these guys I met. I mean, I was like, I
literally pissed my pants when I met Gregory Peck and
uh like almost literally and uh um. And then I'll
never forget. I'm in Brando's house and he said to me,
he says, he says, you know, you and I are
like two dogs that are sniffing each other. He said,
(23:42):
you're sniffing me and I'm sniffing you. And he said,
and oh god, oh god, I hate that. I hate that.
He said, So you say whatever you want to say,
and I'll say whatever I want to say. I mean,
just really, he just didn't want anybody to play him.
He hated that, you know, I mean, and it was,
it was. It was an amazing day. I have a
day I spent with him now. Um So in Waterfront.
(24:06):
One of the other things I love about this film
is that is that you know, Kazan, having directed in
the theater, he knew that you had to set the
table with every detail in terms of the acting in
their performances. That there was one week link in the chain.
I'm talking about Fred Gwynn when I later wanted to
play Herman Munster with a small role Lee J. Cobb
(24:28):
and one of his greatest roles. One of the great
great great actors in history, Lee J. Cobb, Steiger, great
great actor Maori s her FIRSTRMORI sat of course. I
mean the the acting is superlative from one end to
the other. In that cast. It's it's mind blowing. It's
and and uh two ton Tony Galento. You know it
was Bud that got all those Xbox Boxers in the
(24:52):
film because he knew them. Yeah, I mean, just the
acting is breathtaking. But also what I what I love
is that. Uh. Also what I love is it it
so nothing on the screen really in terms of set design,
in terms of costume it's it literally is the closest
I've ever seen to a motion picture that behaves like radio,
(25:16):
where you only focused on the ideas. You're not thrown
by a lot of pizzazz and a lot of shots
and a lot of it's so straight ahead and so honest.
You as a filmmaker when you first saw the film,
what did you think of it as a movie? How
you put together a movie? I loved it, and I
gotta give love the Lennon Bernstein score amazing and for
(25:37):
me it is one. I know, we gotta get to
your your selection. But what it has for one of
the most amazing endings of the movie with the score,
and they brought in James Wang Han the greats and
photographer to be in the roller skates. Boris Kaufman was
the cinematographer. But you see they brought in James wang
(25:59):
How I didn't know that he did that shot. Wow,
that's amazing. Brando's peel v as he's walking towards the
guy and you see everybody goes and stumbles in. Everybody
goes in behind him and they see the gate clothes
and you see, uh yeah, called Maldon and you recently
walk out. I mean that that and a lot of
(26:24):
great lines in that movie that uh um. I still
quote Brando whenever my wife would say to me. You know,
she'd said to me, you know, when are you gonna
take me to dinner or whatever? The line buzz And
you know, Brando's got the line in the in the
bar with the gun and he says, it's none of
your business. You have to say that line of people
(26:49):
like that will not work in the Lee household. Let
me tell you that it's none of your business, one
of your your own business, Lewis Lee. Uh. Now, now
another person in this film who I thought was that
I really was taken by was the art director. You
(27:10):
know what I do work I do on TCM and
things like that where I get into these details. Richard Day,
who did the art direction on this film, was nominated.
I think I don't have the statistics in front of me.
He was nominated for like nine Academy Awards and won
many Academy Awards for for a career that spanned from
Dark Angel and Dodsworth and dead End in the thirties
(27:33):
and to how Green was My Value? And then it
goes onto street Car and Waterfront in in the in
the in the fifties, and this guy one oscars over
the arc of like a two decades and uh. And
of course Leonard Bernstein score, which uh, you know, the
(27:54):
New York Philharmonic has a program that I'm the co
producer I called the Art of the Score, which we
played the music. I have to picture, particularly films that
have classical repertoire, with Kubrick being the uh, the ultimate
example of that, and showing films like you went to
Science say again, went the Bronx very exactly exactly Kubrick,
you know two thousand and one, which we're showing again
(28:14):
for the second time next year, Barry Linded and so forth.
But we've also played films where to have they just
have lush, non classical score. Although burn Steins part of
that world, and we showed Waterfront and and the Philharmonic
played Waterfront In said though he didn't like the way
he wrote more music than was put in. Yeah, so
(28:35):
he wasn't happy with the way now turn out. Can
we talk about Shelley Winters. You Go, You Go is
amazing in a place in the sun, and when I
saw her role, automatically automatically thought about her and Night
of the Hunter. It's almost like the same, this magic
(29:02):
woman that just can't get it right and with the
wrong guy, and she got murdered. In both films. Here's
Cliff gleaming with his beauty and she's gleaming with her beauty.
But the acting of Shelley Winters, her performance is unbelievable
in this movie. She's incredible, But there are very few people.
You can't shoot two people this close. And the famous
(29:23):
kissing scene between Montgomery Clift and Elizabeth Taylor. You can't
shoot two people that close and hold the camera that
close for too long unless you have two perfect looking people.
And in this film you have the you have the
most beautiful man, or one of them that ever lived
in the history of the movies, and the most beautiful woman.
I mean, it's it's like a cinematic like a confection,
(29:45):
you know. I mean, in terms of the delight you
feel from watching these people. The scene when they meet
and he's shooting pool at the party and she walks in.
I mean, there's there's there's so much for the eye.
There's so much beauty in this film and just flat
out uti between these two people. And then beyond that
is this horrible drama of what happens to to him
(30:06):
and to Shelley Winter. There's no spoiler alert here, but
it's this film. The first time I ever saw this film,
I remember he's on a television I think. I mean
a lot of these films I saw on TV because
when I was a kid, Channel nine, right there you go.
I mean, people, I always say the same tired thing
all the time about this, but you know, no HBO,
no VS, VCRs. When I was a kid, it was
(30:29):
Channel eleven, Channel five, and Channel uh nine would make
licensing agreements with a studio. Probably i'd of a cycle.
Do you remember, Okay, I'm gonna come out a million
dollar movie with the theme from Gone with the Wind.
So I see this movie on TV and I remember, like,
it's not even about sexuality, I don't think, but just
(30:50):
kind of sitting there with my mouth up and going,
oh my god. You know, I think I'd probably kill
Shelley Winters for Elizabeth Taylor too. And that's not a
hard choice, but that but that movie doesn't mean you
hear you've got the guy though they both played that.
I mean, Elizabeth Taylor was a breathtaking actress, and and
(31:11):
and and Clift was it was it was a brilliant actor.
And then you see the juxtaposition between Sheldon win Is,
you know, a lower lower class and you know that
feels really about classism. Even though Montgomery is Eastman, he's
like not really part of the real family, so he's
(31:32):
trying to get up the ladder. Two, I have to
take advantage of you being here for this kind of thing. Now,
what do you do when you direct the film? Because
they always say that the directors then and now. It's
always been the same that they cast. Well, you try
your best to get who you want for the role.
You have a dream cast, and you try to get
(31:53):
them in terms of their availability, and there there there
there their desire to be in the film, and can
you afford them, and so all those things come together,
which I want you to speak about for people to
understand what an extraordinarily difficult thing that is to do.
I meaning, you're you're gonna make a film, Spike Lee
is gonna make a film, and you're gonna have anybody
in your films. People are begging to work with you,
(32:13):
and sometimes you don't get who you want in the film. True. Well,
since we are here at the Tribeca Film Festival, the
role of sal I offered to Mr de Niro, You
want to do it, that son of a bitch. No,
(32:34):
I think it's Daniel. You got nominated, and I think that,
which I mean, I love Bob and I wanted my film,
but de Nirol might have tilted. It was meant to
be asemble piece do the right thing. You mean you
(32:54):
had two taro, I mean every was in it, but
no one's really Richard Edson the Great Ruby, d Ozzy Davis.
You no but Sam Sam Samuel Jackson and he was
saying back then, and Carlo Jean Casposito, Rosie Perez. That's
(33:16):
her first film is Martin Lawrences first film, Robin Harris
first film, The Late Robin Harris. So it's been my
experience things happen for the most part the way it
should be, because that's not the only time where I
wanted someone and I didn't get them and it turned
out for the best because I got somebody who just
(33:39):
fits better. So and it also like its like a
sports team, you know. I mean one year the Lakers
head like by all stars starting, they were terrible because
it was no there's no chemistry and everybody's gonna be starting.
Everybody can't be like it just needs to come together.
It's interesting because you hear that across the board. You
(34:02):
have an ensemble of people and if you change one
little thing, it would upset the now. Now without naming names,
because one of my goals into you know, embarrassing anybody.
But when you make films as a as a director,
and your films are dramas, they're they're they're they're acting,
is at the four. You don't do action films and
space movies and all this other crap. I'm sorry, I
(34:23):
didn't mean that. Um Um, what I meant was, uh,
because we love space movie, let's face. But when you're directing,
what is directing performance for you? Now? Because like, you
bring these people in, and you bring people who are
going to play the role, and you you assume they're
(34:45):
pretty good to go. But what happens when it's not working?
How involved are you involved? And like walking up to people,
take them aside and go, hey man, this is what
I need in the scene. Yeah, but you can't have
to be done you know, in a whisper if you
do that, I felt you're gonna lose actor, even if
you take him aside and do it. Know what I'm saying,
(35:05):
It has to be done private exactly. I agree with you.
Oh no, it should be private, you know. So you
really here's the thing, don't you try to head that
stuff off in rehearsal. You can't be on the on
the day while you're shooting hundred of people, you know,
crew members, and you're discussing the character and the ark
(35:25):
all that stuff. That stuff has to be worked out
in rehearsal. But sometimes whether I'm having a bad dare
actor having a bad day, things that happen. You're just
trying to go through it, but and make sure that
at the end we're done that we talked. So you
gotta get you gotta work that shipped out so it's squashed,
(35:48):
done with and you could continue in good spirits. I'm
reminded of my dear, dear friend who passed away, Marvin Worth.
You know, Marvin Bruduce Malcolm X. Give me an example.
Maybe he's one producers who actually contribute to help you
make the movie you want to make. Marvin bought the
rights to the autobiography of Malcolm X, as told by
(36:12):
Alex Haley. I mean really really many years ago, and
he's been trying to make it. Set lamed a whole
bunch of people. One time, Richard Pryor supposed to play him,
and he said, he sent me letters saying you want
(36:34):
to be involved as film, So I never I never
got the letters. So then I was reading the papers
that Denzel Washington was gonna play Malcolm X. He had
already done the play a Broadway When Chickens Come When
Chickens Come Home, The roost and the director was gonna
be Norman Jewison, and I said to myself self, hold
(36:58):
the funk up. Yeah, and Norman great director in the
Heat and the Night. I mean he's done many, many
fine films. And I just began to talk about a
little bit and then Marven Worth called me, says, Spike,
stop talking. Let's have you and Norman sit down, and
(37:24):
so we we met. I mean, this is not a
new story, it's old. And uh, Norman want to note
why I want to do it? And I told him
and he gracefully said, okay. He didn't have to do that.
He had the gig. He was a director, he was
the one the Marvel Worth chose and also Warner Brothers.
(37:49):
So I've always had the respect for Mr Jewison because
he could have said, fuck you, Spike, I don't care
who you are. I'm directing this feel. But there are
producers and this is I guess what my question is,
because a lot of people that that's an intangible for
a lot of people. What producers do beyond, as they say,
bringing a vital element to the table, the script, the star,
(38:10):
the money from the studio. They've got the juice with
the studio, what have you. But there are producers who
have actually have they've helped you make your films. If
they've they've contributed to man, there's no way pout. I've
been involved. I was directed Malcolm X without the late
great Marvin Worth. I went to a screening. Marvin invited
me to a screening, uh at the Academy in uh,
(38:32):
not the DJ but the Academy, you know, one of
the great great screening rooms in all of Los Angeles,
which is saying a lot. And then we went to
that screening of Malcolm X there and uh, I gotta say,
it's one of your greatest films. That's a great, great film,
Malcolm X. You had a great job. All that goes
to Mr Denzel Washington. I know we're talking all the films.
(38:52):
I have to just say this real quick because tomorrow
let's see Denzel Washington. Dad the opening of Life coming
coming four three curtain call. It's like a nine right, ye,
not that long. But people ask me all the time,
you know, we uh, Denzel more better Malcolm X. He
(39:15):
got game inside man. So it's been a minute. But
Denzel people asked me about his performance. He prepared a
year before. He told his agent, don't give me any
more work, learned to praying Arabic, speaking Arabic, learning to
read the Koran, cut out pork, cut out alcohol, because
(39:41):
he under Denzel understands that just sounded like somebody or
looking like that's just surface and he and he knew
that if he did the job need to be done,
that Malcolm's spirit will come into him. I put my
(40:02):
hand on a stack of Bibles. There was a scene.
All the speeches in the film were Malcolm's words, and
there was one speech. I mean, he was killing it
and I'm looking at him. I got the mom to
him looking at Ernest right here, my great cinematograher, Ernest Dickinson.
So I see that, to see him looking at the sides.
(40:23):
And the scene is about the end. Some great called
cut and he keeps going, we're shooting film, and he
went off another two minutes and finally Ernest a Spike.
We ran out. So I woke up to Denzel. He's
almost like in a daze. I said, d what was that?
(40:44):
So what are you doing? He said, Spike, I don't know.
I can't tell you what I just said. That ship
can't happen if you don't prepare for it. He worked
a year and and and asked anybody was on the
set that day? We thought we saw Malcolm Front. Do
you know? You know what I love about that film? Also,
it's tough sometimes if you play if the film calls
(41:06):
for an actress, a woman to play that role of
the wife of the the you know, it's a supporting role.
And uh, what I love was I thought, if Angela
La Bassett was my wife, nothing I couldn't do either,
you know, and brought it. She was so wanted. Angela
(41:27):
Bassett is such a great actress and she's so wonderful
on that film. So I understand that we're gonna take
some questions. You know, what's up? Spoke? My name is Chris,
I'm from Virginia, and I just wanted to ask you
what do you think of Black Panther? My brother, I've
(41:48):
seen it four times me too. I look at the
world now differently before Black Panther and at the Black
Panther that that should change everything, especially for people of color. Now,
wait a second, I mean I think in these times,
in these modern times where we're trying to all be
more sensitive and more inclusive, don't you want to know
(42:09):
what I thought a black panther? I mean, do you
want to ask me? Go ahead, I was actually gonna
ask you about Infinity Wars and yeah, my brother, you
bought the catsups. You know it was the down. We're
(42:32):
give us the next question. Next question, can you tell
us a little bit about your new movie, The Black
Clansman and what that's based on. The Black Clans was
based on the book my Man Hair is in It.
Ron Stalwarf was the first after American policeman in Carrell Springs.
(42:56):
He ended up infiltrating the clan reading the paper, and
the clan put it at in paper when we need
new members. So ron Stalward thinks as a joke, you
know it's a Google. So she calls up and thinking
as a joke, he leaves. They don't pick up as
(43:19):
a voicemails. He leaves his real name and phone number,
and the clan calls back and said, we want you
to come down for inter of you. So since he's
an African American, he can't really show up for the
inter of you, so he has to sin, my man,
(43:40):
is that a Boston Red Sox hat? There? Thank you?
Row seven twelve, Row seven that be oh boy, So
he has to get a white police officer to play him.
That's Adam dry Her And so we're in official competition
(44:05):
that can and it opens August tenth, so check it out.
And who plays the lead? The lead is played by
John David Washington, Denzel's eldest son. Denzel's son. You might
have seen him in Ballers. We have time for one more,
one more um in the scope of all of your projects,
(44:25):
what is the work that has been most transformative and
what is the legacy that you hope to leave. She
was actually looking at you. She pretended it was for
both of us, but she was looking right at you
when she said that it's okay, It's okay. I would
say I did a documentary called Full Little Girls, which
(44:49):
is about the bombing of the nine three Birmingham Church,
the sixth Street Baptist Church, and Broma, Obama. Full of
girls were killed. Jago who were in the and FBI
knew who did it a week after. One of the
guy's name was Donna Mine Bob. His nickname was Dna
night Bob. And for many years the case was cold
(45:16):
and before the film opened at the film form, Karen
Cooper and a couple of days before the open the
FBI called me and they said, want to see the film.
The day after the film opened, they reopened that case.
After many, many years, they went to trial. It was
(45:38):
Motherfucker's died in prison. True story. They they killed, murder
those full little girls and just went about their lives,
you know, and they died in I think I don't
(46:00):
know how many wanted to, but they died in prison. Well,
I mean, this is gonna sound corny and sound stupid.
When I was on my phone by the way a
moment ago, trying to look up something about him, and
my wife, who's here, texted me and said, put your
phone down. She literally texted me, she wrote, enough with
(46:23):
the phone. My legacy is not really that much about Honestly,
I don't really think about the work I do that much.
It comes and goes. It's sand castles, you know, I mean,
the ocean comes. It's the moment you have with people.
I'm doing The Edge with Tony Hopkins, and he and
I would have lunch together and we would do dueling
Richard Burton impersonations together over lunch. And I'll never forget
(46:46):
that to the day I die, and I wanted to
work with him, and he called me recently I had
me comeing to a movie with him, and it was
it was really, I mean it was. We did one
day I shot this little thing. I won't give it away,
but what a great honor it was to get good.
I did a movie with Ed Norton. Ed directed this
wonderful movie mother Lis Brooklyn. I'm in this crowd with
people I worship, you know, uh Cherry Jones and Connavali
(47:07):
and uh Willem to poe him on the set with
him going oh man, this is what it's all about.
You know. To me, it's who you work with. I
got to do a Good Shepherd with Bob Denier would
walk up to me and uh Matt Damon and he
would talk to me, and literally, after like thirty seconds,
I would I mean, I couldn't hear him. I went deaf.
Oh the movie starts screening it in my head and
(47:28):
he talked to me, give me the direction. I look
at my go. I'm sorry because you repeat that. I
wasn't listening to a word you said. Just now, Hey,
look at me go. You're very good, Alec, very good
to be with those people, to be with them, And
with that in mind, would you all please join me
in thanking our guests. One of the greatest movie makers
in history. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Spike Lee's
(48:01):
Black Klansmen will be in theaters August tenth. I'm Alec
Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing, M
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