Vanderbilt v. Vanderbilt

In 1934, a custody battle between members of one of America's wealthiest families proved that money truly can't buy happiness. At the case's heart was Gloria Vanderbilt, dubbed "Poor Little Rich Girl" by the press. Her mother, Gloria, and her aunt, Gertrude, both claimed that they just wanted what was best for the girl. But was a courtroom the best place to decide little Gloria's future?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
You are listening to History on Trial, a production of
iHeart Podcasts. Listener Discretion advised this must have been how
King Solomon felt. Justice John Francis Carew thought that ancient
king had once confronted a similar problem to the one

(00:24):
Carew faced. Now. Two women had come to Solomon, each
claiming that a baby was theirs. The king watched the
woman argue back and forth, and then he spoke, saying,
bring me a sword. Once the sword was at hand,
the King said, divide the living child in two, and

(00:48):
give half to the one and half to the other.
One woman, horrified, said she would rather the other woman
kept the baby so that it could live. The other
told the king to go ahead. King Solomon knew at
once that the first woman must be the child's mother.

(01:10):
In some ways, the custody case in front of Justice
Carew was even harder than Solomon's. As a justice of
the New York State Supreme Court, Carew was not allowed
to use a sword to render judgment. Instead, he would
have to listen to weeks of testimony and to carefully
weigh his options. And things only got more complicated from there.

(01:35):
When Solomon administered his test the Book of King's records,
his subjects saw that the wisdom of God was in
him to do judgment. Justice Carew could not hope for
such a positive reception. No matter what he decided, people
would be furious, not just the parties involved, but the

(01:55):
crowds gathered outside the courthouse and the millions of people
who followed the case avidly in newspapers. For this was
not an ordinary custody case. The women fighting in front
of Justice Carew for custody of a ten year old
girl were not ordinary women. They were members of one

(02:17):
of the wealthiest and most powerful families in American history,
and in their battle for custody of this girl, they
would bring the full force of their names and connections
to bear, stopping at nothing, from hiring spies to destroying
reputations to get what they wanted. After all, they were

(02:41):
used to the world bending to their whims. It often
does when your last name is Vanderbilt. On the one hand,
there was the girl's mother, Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt, a defining
beauty of her generation, a friend to royalty and Hollywood,
a regular feet in the society columns. On the other hand,

(03:03):
there was Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney, Gloria's sister in law, the
enormously wealthy patron of the arts who had founded her
own museum. Between them was the girl also named Gloria,
ten years old, with a sleek cap, of thick dark
hair and a strange, nervous manner. What was she so

(03:25):
frightened of? The Justice wondered, was one of the women
the source of her fear? Could one of them cure it?
There was much to consider, and that was before the
high priced lawyers, and the interfering grandmother and the hysterical nanny.
Justice carew shook his head. Perhaps he needed a sword

(03:49):
after all. Welcome to History on Trial. I'm your host,
Mira Hayward this week the matter of Vanderbilt. For a brief,
beautiful period in the early nineteen twenties, it seemed that
all of New York society loved the magnificent Morgans. That's

(04:14):
what the newspapers called the Morgan twins, Gloria and Telma,
and the name fit. They were stunningly beautiful, intriguingly foreign,
and ever present. The twins had exploded onto the social
scene in nineteen twenty one, aged seventeen and made a
strong impression. No one minded that their pedigree was not

(04:38):
entirely blue blooded. Their father, Harry Hayes Morgan, was a
career diplomat and not related to the JP Morgans. Their mother, Laura,
was the daughter of a Civil war general and a
Chilean aristocrat. The twins had grown up abroad with their
two older siblings, a brother Hair and a sister Consuelo.

(05:02):
Their lifestyle had been nomadic and they had picked up
a number of languages as a result. At seventeen, after
sporadic schooling, the twins had been left alone in New
York City. Their mission, their mother, Laura, made it clear,
was to find husbands. Laura Morgan was a domineering, status

(05:24):
and money obsessed women, as her granddaughter would later reflect, quote,
Laura Morgan did not believe in married love, in friendship
between women, or that women could ever achieve positions of
power except through the men they married. The twins knew
that for their financial security they would need to make

(05:45):
good matches. Still, they were going to enjoy their independence
while they could. They showed up to parties in stunning
dresses they had sown themselves dancing until the wee hours
charming the social columnists. The photographer Cecil Beaten was one
of many who found himself drawn to Gloria and Telma.

(06:08):
They are alike as two magnolias, Beaten wrote, and with
their marble complexions, raven tresses and flowing dresses, with their
slight lisps and foreign accents, they diffuse an atmosphere of
hot house elegance and lacy femininity. Soon enough, Telma caught

(06:29):
the eye of Junior Converse, scion of a wealthy family,
and in February nineteen twenty two, the couple eloped. Upon
their return to New York, they hosted a dinner party,
and it was there that Gloria met the man whose
family would shape her life. He was unprepossessing, this man

(06:49):
nearly twenty five years older than Gloria, with a bushy mustache,
graying hair, and the flush complexion and bulging belly of
the heavy drinker he was. Despite all of this, the
man was considered the most eligible bachelor in New York,
all because his name was Reggie Vanderbilt. Wealth did not

(07:12):
serve Reggie Vanderbilt well born in eighteen eighty, he was
the youngest son of Alice and Cornelius Vanderbilt, the second
the couple who built the famous or infamous one hundred
and thirty eight thousand square foot Newport vacation home known
as the Breakers. Raised in luxury, Reggie wanted for nothing

(07:36):
and never faced consequences. On his twenty first birthday, he
inherited several trusts worth approximately fifteen point five million dollars.
That night, to celebrate his windfall, he went gambling and
lost seventy thousand dollars. By nineteen fifteen, as part of

(07:56):
an investigation into Reggie for tax fraud, authorities discovered that
all he had left was the income off of the
one trust, whose principle he could not touch. In fourteen years,
Reggie had spent nearly twenty five or in today's money,
nine hundred and twenty three million dollars. Four years later,

(08:22):
Reggie's first wife, Kathleen, divorced him. The couple had married
in nineteen oh three and had one daughter, also named Kathleen,
who in nineteen twenty two was almost exactly the same
age as her father's new love interest, Gloria Morgan. Kathleen
and Gloria were close for a while until Reggie told

(08:44):
his daughter of his plan to propose to her good friend, Gloria.
Kathleen fled to her mother's house in Florida. Reggie bought
a sixteen carrot heart shaped diamond engagement ring. Gloria Morgan
knew who she was married, wrying Reggie had told her
about his financial difficulties. He had explained his health problems

(09:06):
to her too. Reggie's drinking was quickly killing him, but
still Gloria wished to marry him. She seemed to see
Reggie as something of a father figure. Her own father
had often been absent, and she liked how Reggie took
care of her. After winning over Reggie's mother, Alice with

(09:27):
her bold personality, Gloria married Reggie on March sixth, nineteen
twenty three. Eleven months later, on February twentieth, nineteen twenty four,
Gloria gave birth to a baby who the couple named
Gloria Laura Vanderbilt. To keep the Glorias apart, I'll call

(09:47):
the child Little Gloria, as her mother's family did. The
couple designated Reggie's older sister, Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney as Little
Gloria as godmother. Laura Morgan Glory, Loria's mother, helped her
daughter with the difficult early days of parenthood. Soon as
was her way, Laura had completely taken charge. She was

(10:11):
the one who selected and hired the baby's nanny, Emma
Sullivan Keislich. The thirty three year old nanny was well
trained and had worked with a number of other wealthy families.
But most importantly to Laura's mind, Nurse Keeslick had the
same view of little Gloria that she did. To their minds,

(10:32):
little Gloria was not an ordinary baby. She was special.
She was a Vanderbilt, practically American royalty. Laura and Nurse
Keeslick treated the baby like she was made of glass.
As author Barbara Goldsmith writes in Little Gloria Happy at Last,

(10:53):
her account of the trial, quote, the child was the
main concern of their lives and their justification for being
in Gloria's household. Their obsessive focus on the baby would
one day have devastating consequences for the entire family. On
September fourth, nineteen twenty five, Reggie Vanderbilt died from alcoholic cirrhosis,

(11:17):
aged forty five. Gloria barely had time to mourn her
husband before the bill collectors came knocking on her door.
The extent of Reggie's debts soon revealed itself. He owed
hundreds of thousands of dollars. He had left Gloria with
almost nothing of her own. However, their daughter, Little Gloria,

(11:42):
inherited her father's one remaining asset, the inviolable trust, whose
principle he was never able to touch. She and her
older sister Kathleen, each received half of this money, two
and a half million dollars each, to be held in
trust until they were twenty one. Laura Morgan suggested that
Gloria reach out to a family friend, the lawyer George Wickersham,

(12:07):
for financial and legal advice. Wickersham sent over an associate,
Thomas Gilchrist, to help the thirty nine year old. Gilchrist
advised Gloria that her daughter would need a legal and
financial guardian. Gloria, who was only twenty at the time,
was not old enough to serve in these roles. The

(12:27):
law said you had to be twenty one. Wickersham agreed
to take on the guardian ships, with Gilchrist acting as
his representative. Eventually, Gilchrist would become an official guardian Gilchrist
and Wickersham helped Gloria prepare a petition asking that money
be withdrawn from Little Gloria's Trust to support herself and

(12:48):
her child. Justice James Foley of the Surrogate's Court, the
legal body which administered estates in New York, approved Gloria's
request for four thousand dollars into day money seventy one
thousand dollars a month. That is an enormous sum to
most of us, but within Gloria's circles, this was a

(13:10):
paltry amount, especially considering that Gloria soon began financially supporting
her parents. It should also be noted that this amount
was well within the income the trust generated each year.
In nineteen twenty six, Gloria decided to move to Paris.
Little Gloria's guardian, Thomas Gilchrist, objected to this plan, believing

(13:33):
that it was better for the child to be raised
in America. He threatened Gloria, telling her that Justice Foley
would cut her income off, but Justice Foley had no
such plans. He told Gloria to enjoy life abroad, but
said that she ought to bring the child home when
it was school aged. Gloria happily agreed and set off

(13:56):
for Paris. These years in Europe were happy ones. Mostly,
Gloria lived the life of a beautiful young society widow,
staying out late, taking trips to the south of France,
throwing cocktail parties. Like nearly all wealthy women of her generation,

(14:16):
Gloria left the child care to the nanny. Nurse Keislich
and Laura Morgan created a loving, if over protective atmosphere
for the toddler, but beneath the surface, trouble was stirring.
In October nineteen twenty six, Gloria met Gutfried, Prince of
ho and Loah Landenberg on a ship. Friedel, as friends

(14:39):
called him, was close to Gloria's age, and the two
bonded as they crossed the Atlantic. Within months they were
in love. In March nineteen twenty seven, they announced their engagement.
There were two problems though. First, Friedel had no money
you would not have any until the death of his father,

(15:01):
Thomas Gilchrist told Gloria that her daughter's money could not
be used to support a new husband. Secondly, there was
the problem of Laura Morgan, Gloria's mother, Always tightly wound
and prone to hysteria had become increasingly unhinged. She was

(15:22):
obsessed with Little Gloria's safety. She saw Friedel as a
threat to her granddaughter's well being, and this threat was
not metaphorical. She believed, on the basis of no evidence,
that Friedel would murder Little Gloria for her money. Soon
this year expanded, Laura began openly claiming that Friedel and

(15:47):
Gloria were trying to kill the child. Nurse Keieslich, who
had become obsessed with the child, refusing to ever leave
her side, fell into step with Laura's paranoid fantasy. Little Gloria,
who loved her grandmother and her nanny fiercely, could not
help but absorb their anxieties. After a year of stress

(16:11):
from all sides, Gloria and Friedol decided to call off
their engagement. Gloria kicked her mother out of her house
in Paris. Laura moved into a hotel ten blocks away.
Nurse Keislick took Little Gloria to visit her regularly. Gloria
began spending more time in England, where her twin sister

(16:33):
Telma was living. Telma had by now divorced her first husband,
married a wealthy English viscount and started an affair with
the Prince of Wales. Life was a whirlwind of parties
and hunts, and even a presentation at court, but by
nineteen thirty Gloria was receiving increasing pressure from Gilchrist to

(16:55):
return to America. He held her financial position over her head,
constantly threatening to cut her off. To Gloria, the arrangement
was unbearable. She later wrote, quote, everything was under constant surveillance.
I was never able to do anything on my own

(17:15):
initiative when it came to expenditures without first consulting my
child's guardians. Gilchrist's desire to control Gloria's life is at
times difficult to understand. There are several factors that might
explain it. A genuine desire to serve the child's financial interests,

(17:36):
Gilchrist's condescending paternalistic feelings towards the elder Gloria, and most importantly,
the fact that he was receiving regular letters from Laura
Morgan claiming that Gloria was an unfit mother. Eventually, Gilchrist
and Wickersham issued an ultimatum. If Gloria and seven year

(17:58):
old little Gloria did not return to America in nineteen
thirty two, they would be cut off financially. Reluctantly, Gloria
made reservations on an ocean liner. The America that the
Vanderbilts returned to was a much bleaker country than the
one they had left. The Great Depression had ravaged the nation.

(18:23):
Kidnappings for ransom were on the rise, and wealthy families
were hiring bodyguards to protect their children. Nurse Kislich was
terrified of Little Gloria being kidnapped and spoke constantly of
the danger. This annoyed Gloria Vanderbilt, who did not believe
that her daughter was at risk. But she was wrong.

(18:46):
Already plans were being put in place to take Little
Gloria away from her. It was not anonymous criminals who
were planning the kidnapping, though, it was the child's own family.
For all the conflict that would define Gloria Morgan Vanderbilt

(19:07):
and Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney's relationship, the two women had a
surprising amount in common. They had both been raised by
status ofsessed mothers, were both bound by strict social conventions,
and both had a taste for pleasure. The biggest difference
between the two ultimately was money. Gloria, despite her lifestyle,

(19:30):
did not have any money of her own. Gertrude, on
the other hand, controlled one of the largest fortunes in
the world. Gertrude was born on January ninth, eighteen seventy five,
the second daughter of Alice and Cornelius Vanderbilt. The second
She was five years older than her brother Reggie, making

(19:52):
her thirty years older than her sister in law Gloria.
From childhood, Gertrude had had an overwhelming a waywareness of
her social status and the expectations for a woman in
her position. She consciously developed a chilly, impenetrable shell of
perfect manners which concealed her inner desires, perhaps because she

(20:15):
knew that those desires would shock society. As a teenager,
Gertrude fell in love with another woman. The two began
a passionate three year relationship that lasted until Gertrude was
twenty one. By eighteen ninety six, Gertrude's feelings for her
girlfriend had begun to fade, and she turned her attention

(20:37):
to Harry Payne Whitney, the dashing, handsome air to a
prestigious family In eighteen ninety six, she married Harry in
the social event of the season. The couple would have
three children. Like Gloria, they left the raising of these
children to Nanny's. Though their life was filled with luxury,

(20:59):
the marriage was not a happy one. The Whitneys had
little in common, and Harry was frequently unfaithful. To occupy herself,
Gertrude began to explore the art world. She took up
sculpting and then collecting. By the nineteen twenties, she had
established herself as one of the foremost patrons of American art.

(21:20):
She had also established a hidden private life, playing out
beneath her public role as a respectable society matron. In
the second life, she was a bohemian, throwing wild parties
in her downtown art studio for her artist friends and
having affairs of her own. In both lives, public and private,

(21:43):
she was a force to be reckoned with. My ways
are deep, Gertrude wrote of herself, and I cover my
tracks with discretion, but nonetheless, when I want something, it
often happens. In nineteen twenty nine, the Metropolitan Museum of
Art declined Gertrude's donation of her entire collection of American art.

(22:09):
Gertrude wanted to keep her collection together, and she wanted
it to be displayed. So she did what any passionate
collector with a mind boggling fortune would do. She created
a museum of her own. The Whitney Museum of American
Art opened in New York City in nineteen thirty one
and today attracts more than seven hundred thousand visitors a year.

(22:33):
In nineteen thirty Harry Whitney died, bequeathing Gertrude his five
thousand acre of Long Island estate, Wheatley Hills. It was
at Wheatley Hills that the true trouble with Little Gloria began.
In the summer of nineteen thirty two, after the two
Glorias returned from their years abroad, a doctor informed Gloria

(22:57):
that her daughter needed to have her tonsils removed. The
surgery went smoothly, but a week after the night before
Gloria planned to take a trip to Europe, the child
had a hysterical fit, screaming that she was going to die.
Gloria pushed back her trip. The next day, Gertrude stopped by.

(23:17):
She asked Gloria if she could take the child to
Wheatley Hills for the summer so she could recover from
her surgery in a peaceful environment. Gloria readily accepted. At
Wheatley Hills, little Gloria's troubles continued. She seemed to be
in constant pain, but none of the eight physicians that

(23:38):
Nurse Keeslick was constantly summoning to the house could find
anything physically wrong with her. Little Gloria had night terrors
and emotional outbursts. Gertrude Whitney was concerned. She had received
letters from Laura Morgan and Nurse Keeslick while they had
been abroad, letters full of concerns over the environment that

(24:00):
Little Gloria was growing up in. They had portrayed the
elder Gloria as an immoral pleasure seeker. Laura had also
expressed darker concerns, fears that Gloria might harm the child.
Gertrude had thought these concerns far fetched, but now that
she spent more time with Little Gloria witnessed her panic

(24:24):
and instability, she began to believe, especially as the child's
conditions seemed to improve while away from her mother. By
the fall, little Gloria seemed happier and healthier, and even
began school on Long Island. In September, Gertrude telegrammed Gloria

(24:45):
in Europe and asked if little Gloria could stay through Christmas.
Gloria said yes. In January, Gloria returned to New York,
but after her return, Telma wrote to her that their
father was dying. Gloria quickly headed to Europe, but did
not tell Gertrude or Thomas Gilchrist why. Gertrude and Gilchrist

(25:08):
were concerned. How could Gloria so casually leave her child.
Gilchrist wrote a sternly worded letter to Gloria demanding that
she returned to New York or be cut off, But
when Gloria met with Gilchrist, he informed her that her
daughter would be staying at Wheatley Hill's. Gloria was confused.

(25:29):
On the one hand, Gilchrist was telling her that she
needed to have her daughter with her in order to
receive money, but he was also saying that she could
not have her daughter back. Gilchrist also decided to alter
the financial arrangements. Instead of Gloria receiving four thousand dollars
a month to cover all expenses. He would pay household

(25:49):
expenses straight from the trust, and Gloria would receive a
reduced income of seven hundred and fifty dollars a month,
plus two hundred and fifty dollars to give to Laura Morgan,
who was supporting. Unbeknownst to Gloria, Gilchris used his new
power to hire household servants that spied on Gloria and
reported on her lifestyle to him. This uneasy situation continued

(26:14):
through nineteen thirty three. Gloria visited her daughter occasionally at
Wheatley Hills, but spent most of the year abroad. In September,
she met with Gertrude to discuss Little Gloria. It was
an unproductive conversation, as Barbara Goldsmith writes, quote, neither woman
would speak of her true concerns. Gloria would say nothing

(26:37):
of what she felt to be the punitive financial measures
that were being enacted against her because of the child's absence.
Gertrude would not speak of her apprehension regarding the atmosphere,
which she had come to consider both morally and physically
dangerous to her niece. There existed between these two women
an exquisite non communication that avoided all the ugly realities

(27:02):
of their relationship. Concerned that things were progressing beyond her control,
Gloria contacted a lawyer named Nathan Berkin. Berkin, of Romanian
born jew had immigrated to New York as a child
and grown up in the tenements of the Lower East Side.
Like Max Stoyer, the defense lawyer in the Triangle firecase

(27:24):
covered in episode six of History on Trial, Berkin had
used his intelligence and work ethic to rise to the
top of the legal profession. He represented many show business
clients and to help found the American Society of Composers,
Authors and Publishers to help musicians protect their intellectual property.

(27:45):
Now fifty four, Berkin had a long Island mansion of
his own and a thriving law practice. He quickly agreed
to help Gloria Vanderbilt. Berkin's hiring was seen by Laura,
Gertrude and Nurse gos Keislick as another sign that Gloria
was unfit to raise her child, not because she was

(28:05):
getting a lawyer involved, but because that lawyer was Jewish.
Berkin suggested that Gloria apply to become the sole guardian
of little Gloria and the co guardian of Little Gloria's property.
Gloria liked the idea, but was concerned that it was
too bold. She was worried about alienating Alice Vanderbilt, Reggie,

(28:27):
and Gertrude's mother, who she had always had a good
relationship with. Gloria also didn't have enough money to pay
Burkin's legal fees. But in April nineteen thirty four, Alice
Vanderbilt died, aged eighty eight. She left Gloria one hundred
thousand dollars in her will. Gloria told Burkin to move

(28:49):
forward with the petition. He submitted the petition to the
Surrogate's Court on June eighteenth. Thomas Gilchrist, as the existing
guardian of Little Gloria's property, received notice of the petition,
and he quickly notified Gertrude Whitney. Gertrude was concerned over
the past two years, Little Gloria had grown strong and

(29:11):
happy at Wheatly Hill's All that progress might be undone
if she had to return to her mother. Gertrude began
to hatch a plan. On July third, Justice James Foley
of the Surrogate's Court heard Gloria's application for guardianship. It
should have been a routine hearing, but once Nathan Burkin

(29:31):
finished reading the application aloud, a man at the back
of the courtroom declared, I object to the petition. Fully
summoned the man to the bench and asked on what
grounds he objected. On the grounds the man replied, of
unfit guardianship, Foley said he would hear more in his

(29:51):
chambers after lunch. Gloria was horrified, and her shock only
increased after lunch, when it was real that the man
who had objected had done so on behalf of her
own mother, Laura Morgan. Gloria didn't know it then, but
Gertrude and Laura had worked together, deciding that it would

(30:13):
look best if the child's grandmother was the public face
of the objection. Aware that the stakes were now raised,
Nathan Burkin advised that Gloria take a more aggressive tack
against Gertrude. He told her to begin gathering affidavits that
testified to her fitness as a mother. Burkin also hired
a private investigator to surveil Laura Morgan and gathered dirt

(30:37):
on Gertrude Whitney. The Whitney camp was working along similar lines,
hiring detectives of their own to follow and investigate Gloria Vanderbilt.
In the meantime, Justice Folly was holding regular meetings for
the two camps to try to work something out. Eventually,
a compromise was reached, although the terms were understood different

(31:00):
by each side. In essence, Little Gloria would stay for
a year with Gertrude, spending one month of the summer
with her mother. Gloria could see her daughter whenever she wished.
After that, Gloria believed that Little Gloria would return to
her custody full time. Gertrude, on the other hand, believed

(31:21):
that at this point a further discussion over custody would
be had. In August, Gloria sailed to Europe to collect
affidavits from her friends. Upon her return in September, she
called Gertrude Whitney on the phone. The women realized that
they had different understandings of the agreement, and Gloria became
frightened that Gertrude planned to contest her custody every year.

(31:45):
She asked Gertrude to send Little Gloria to her house
in New York City for the weekend and Gertrude agreed.
Gloria consulted with Burkin about the development. He advised Gloria
to buy a house of her own near Girha Trudes
on Long Island. That would undermine Gilchrist and Gertrude's argument
that Little Gloria needed to stay at Wheatley Hills because

(32:07):
country living was better for the child. That weekend, Gloria,
excited about the plan, told Nurse Keeslick that Little Gloria
would soon be living with her full time. This was
a mistake. Nurse Keeslick, while out with Little Gloria, called
Gertrude Whitney. Gertrude told Keeslick to bring the child to

(32:29):
her quickly. Soon, Gloria realized that her child was missing. Furious,
she and her sister Consuelo sped to Gertrude's city home
and demanded to see little Gloria. Gertrude claimed that Little
Gloria had gotten sick and that she was simply caring
for her. Gloria was incensed and spotting Nurse Keeslick immediately

(32:53):
fired her. Then she asked for her daughter again, But
when Little Gloria appeared, she seemed to be terrified of
her mother, take her away. Don't let her hurt me.
She's going to kill me, she cried. Gloria could not
understand what was happening. Two doctors were summoned to examine

(33:13):
little Gloria. After some time with the doctors, little Gloria
seemed to calm down, even hugging and kissing her mother.
But Gloria was still frightened. She believed that Gertrude and
Laura and Nurse Keyslich were turning her child against her.
She knew Little Gloria was supposed to say at Gertrude's
that week to attend school, but after the events of

(33:35):
the day, she felt she could not allow Little Gloria
to stay with Gertrude for one moment more. She went
to Nathan Burkin's office and told him she needed Little
Gloria back now. Berkin cautioned her against taking any drastic
actions which could lead to a court battle, but Gloria
was at the end of her rope. She had spent

(33:58):
the past two years in a date of limbo, and
she felt it had been a mistake to wait so long.
She thought her child had been poisoned against her while
she waited. She told Burkin to do whatever it took.
On September twenty third, a process server arrived at Gertrude
Whitney's house at Wheatley Hill's. Gertrude refused to receive the

(34:21):
legal papers he had brought. He returned thirty minutes later
and told Gertrude's footman, quote, tell missus Whitney that unless
she accepts in person, I will plaster the whole front
of her city mansion with these court papers. Gertrude Whitney
came down the stairs and took the papers. Burkin had
sent her a writ of habeas corpus, an order to

(34:43):
produce someone before a court. This writ demanded that Gertrude
Whitney present little Gloria to New York Supreme Court Justice
John Francis Carew. It also commanded her to explain why
she had quote wrongfully recived, strained, and detained the child.
After years of below the surface dealings, the Vanderbilt case

(35:08):
had suddenly erupted into the public eye. There was no
going back now, and if the actions of the first
weeks of September were any indication, things were going to
get very, very ugly. On Monday October one, nineteen thirty four,

(35:29):
The matter of Vanderbilt began in Courtroom number three hundred
and fifty five of the New York Supreme Court. Justice
John Francis Carew presided there would be no jury in
this case. Justice Carew would hear all the testimony and
make a decision on his own. Carew was fifty eight,
a lifelong New Yorker and a socially conservative, devout Catholic.

(35:54):
He was inclined to keep children with their parents, telling
Gertrude Whitney at a pre trie hearing quote, only the
most unusual circumstances warrant the refusal of custody of a
child in favor of any other relative, no matter how
unselfish the motives of the relative might be. The burden
of proof was on Gertrude to prove that Gloria was

(36:18):
an unfit mother. Knowing that they faced a difficult fight,
Gertrude's team had brought on an experienced trial lawyer, Herbert
Crommelin Smith. Smith's first witness with little Gloria's life, long nanny,
nurse Emma Sullivan Keieslich Keeslick, now in her mid forties,

(36:39):
was a large woman with heavy features, Little Gloria called
her Dodo Keeslich was devoted to her charge and had
spent the past ten years harboring a growing hatred for
Gloria Vanderbilt. On the witness stand, her anger irrupted. She

(36:59):
described Gloria Vanderbilt as an immoral party girl and an
absentee mother. I will never understand the type of woman
Missus Vanderbilt is. She said she had seen Gloria in
bed with Prince Friedel. She claimed she and Little Gloria,

(37:19):
she said, had been abandoned in rat infested ramshackle houses
in France and England while Gloria swanned around. Her personal
dislike for Gloria was so evident that Justice Carew cautioned her,
saying this credits a witness. When the witness seems to
be too eager, it throws a partisan spirit, which discounts

(37:44):
her testimony severely. His multiple warnings went unheeded, and Kislick's
testimony became increasingly angry and unhinged. By the time she
stepped down. Many people watching, including Carew, were con discerned
about the impact a woman like this might have on
a child. The defense next called Maria Kyo. The twenty

(38:09):
three year old frenchwoman had been Gloria Vanderbilt's personal maid
for four years from nineteen twenty nine to nineteen thirty three.
Like Kieslich, Kyo described troubling goings on in the Vanderbilt household.
There were parties that lasted all night and kept the
child awake. Kyo said at these parties, people got so

(38:32):
drunk that they couldn't walk. Kyo also claimed to have
seen pornographic books and photographs in the house. On cross
Nathan Burkin undermined Kyo's credibility, getting her to admit that
she had been promised money for her testimony, although she
would not say by whom. Shaken Kyo seemed to crumble

(38:54):
under Berkin's questioning, admitting that she didn't know if Gloria
was frequently drunk, as she had claimed on direct examination,
but that she had only assumed that Gloria was because
quote she always smiled and often repeated herself. Cayo admitted
that many of Gloria's friends were perfectly respectable people. By

(39:16):
the end of the cross examination, Burkein must have felt
that Cayo had become his witness, but then he pushed
things too far. You saw nothing improper in her conduct,
he asked. Kyo, paused, yes, I remember something. It seems
to me very funny. Burkin should have quit while he

(39:40):
was ahead, but instead he asked Cayo for details. Certain
that this would be another non story like all her others,
Cayoe obligingly described a scene in the south of France
where Gloria had been traveling with her friend Nadezhda, Marchioness
of Milford Haven. When I came into the bedroom one morning,

(40:02):
Cayoe said, Missus Vanderbilt was in bed reading a paper,
and there was Lady Milford Haven beside the bed with
her arm around Missus Vanderbilt's neck and kissing her just
like a lover. A stunned silence fell over the courtroom.
Homosexual behavior was a crime in most states at the time,

(40:25):
including New York. Homosexuality itself was seen by many to
be immoral, deviant, and indicative of mental problems. The news
of Gloria Vanderbilt's alleged lesbian relationship with a British aristocrat
made international news. Justice Carew was horrified both by the

(40:45):
allegation and by the potential damage the testimony might have
on the child. He ordered that the trial was to
be private from that moment forward. The next morning, Carew
called all the lawyers into his chambers. He told him
that he recommended an out of court settlement. Frank Crocker,

(41:06):
a longtime legal representative of Gertrude Whitney, told Justice Carew
that there would be no more scandalous testimony. Their case
was based on neglect, not character assassination. Carew allowed the
trial to proceed. He also said he would again admit
the press, but he never did. Carew's approach to the

(41:28):
press would be baffling for reporters. He wanted to protect
the trial participants privacy and reputations, but he also didn't
like being criticized for cutting the press off. He decided
to give the reporters summarized versions of each day's testimony,
but his summaries were often vague and inaccurate, and both

(41:50):
sides quickly began leaking transcripts favorable to their own cases,
So the story that emerged for the public was full
of contradictions and contextless statements. The public was absolutely obsessed
with the trial. Conditions in America were dire. Thousands of

(42:10):
people were unemployed and hungry, and this kind of glamorous
yet tragic trial was the perfect distraction. Public opinion largely
favored Gloria Vanderbilt, who many saw as a struggling widow
being persecuted by her wealthy sister in law. Crowds of
women would gather outside the courtroom and cheer for Gloria

(42:33):
when she emerged. Laura Morgan felt no such sympathy for
her daughter. During her testimony on October ninth, she ripped
into Gloria, It is not my daughter's fault, but she
has not been born with a maternal instinct. She was
indifferent to the child, she proclaimed. Laura also focused on

(42:55):
the gaps in Little Gloria's religious education. The issue of
real religion had come up several times during Kieslik and
Cayote's testimony too. In truth, religion had not been especially
important to any of Little Gloria's caregivers, but it was
very important to justice carew and so lawyers on both

(43:16):
sides instructed the witnesses to discuss how they wished to
raise Little Gloria as a good Catholic. Laura Morgan held
a large gold crucifix in her left hand throughout her testimony.
When Herbert Smith asked her about Gloria's morals, Laura began
to sob and raise the crucifix in front of her face.

(43:37):
A strange fact emerged during Berkin's cross examination of Laura.
During a routine line of questioning about guardianship, Laura revealed
that she believed Gloria to already be the child's legal guardian.
Berkin explained that she was not because she had only
been twenty when Reggie died. That is not true, said Laura,

(43:59):
claiming that Gloria had been twenty one. She said her
twins had been born on August twenty third, nineteen oh four,
not August twenty third, nineteen oh five, as the guardianship
papers declared. This came as a shock to everyone in
the courtroom, Gloria Vanderbilt included Laura. It later came out,

(44:21):
had lied to her daughters about their birth year, believing
that younger women were more eligible brides. This pointless lie
had sparked years of misery. Had Gloria known she was
twenty one at the time of Reggie's death, she could
have become her daughter's legal and financial guardian and none
of this would have happened. But unfortunately, it was too

(44:45):
late to go back now. There were a number of
other witnesses who testified for Gertrude's case, Gertrude herself who
spoke mildly about Little Gloria's happy life at Wheatley Hill's,
employees of Gloria's who discussed her fast living. These were
the same servants that Thomas Gilchrist had hired to spy
on Gloria, and several doctors who discussed Little Gloria's physical

(45:09):
and emotional problems. They all provided helpful information. But just
as Carew knew that he now needed to speak to
Little Gloria herself, wishing to spare her the ordeal of
public testimony, krew decided to have Little Gloria speak to
him in his chambers. Herbert Smith and Nathan Burkin were

(45:30):
also present. Little Gloria quickly made it clear that she
hated and feared her mother. She has never been nice
to me, little Gloria said. Carew asked her about letters
she had written to her mother, where she said that
she loved her. No, I did not, never, said Little Gloria.
I used to write letters to her because I was

(45:52):
afraid of her. Do I have to go back to her.
Little Gloria asked, I think you will want to Carew replied.
Little Gloria began to sob. No, she cried. Carew was
deeply troubled, but there was something strange about Little Gloria's answers.

(46:14):
She could not explain why she did not like her
mother or why she was afraid of her. She could
not give examples of any way in which her mother
had hurt her, and there was something else. She seemed
to have anticipated what questions would be asked, sometimes giving
answers that seemed rehearsed, but her tears and her fear

(46:36):
seemed very real. Un Settled, Carew turned to more familiar ground,
the Catholic Church. He began testing Little Gloria on a
litany of Catholic prayers and rituals. Nervous Little Gloria froze
and struggled to remember words. After nearly two and a
half hours of questioning, little Gloria left the courthouse. Carew

(47:00):
was concerned. The child was clearly troubled, but he could
not understand just what was going on. Unfortunately for Gloria,
her own witnesses did not do much to counteract the
damaging testimony. Of her daughter. Nathan Burkin had originally threatened
to go after Gertrude's reputation, calling in witnesses from the

(47:23):
art world who could testify to her own partying and bisexuality,
but Theobald Matthew, a lawyer representing Lady Milford Haven, advised
Berkan against it, warning that this would cause Gertrude's lawyers
to go after Gloria even harder than they already had.
So Instead, Berkan presented a number of Gloria's friends, all

(47:46):
of whom said that she was an affectionate and caring mother.
Gloria's former fiance, Prince Friedel, came over from Europe with
his wife, Princess Marina, both of whom testified on Gloria's behalf.
So did Glodelaria's twin Telma, and her brother Harry. None
of their testimony was very compelling, and the absence of

(48:08):
certain witnesses implicated in Gloria's scandalous behavior, including Lady Milford Haven,
raised questions about whether the allegations against them were true. Finally,
Gloria herself testified during the trial. Nathan Burkin had urged
her to appear weak and helpless to feed into the

(48:29):
public narrative, but Gloria didn't need to act. She had
had health problems ever since catching diphtheria right before her wedding,
and the trial had driven her to the point of
emotional and physical collapse. She had lost seventeen pounds off
her already slim figure by the time she testified on

(48:51):
the stand. Gloria frequently felt fate, cried, and took breaks.
Berkin led her through her early life, marriage and the
birth of Little Gloria. Emotionally, Gloria proclaimed her love for
her daughter, Mister Burkin, the only thing I want to
say is this. I loved my baby then as I

(49:13):
love her now, and there is no use asking me
how much I love her, because I do love her.
Fragile and passionate Gloria made for a sympathetic witness, but
Herbert Smith's cross examination of her was damaging. He brought
up letters that Little Gloria had written to her grandmother

(49:36):
in which she criticized her mother. In one, Little Gloria wrote, quote,
my mother was in Paris enjoying herself, while poor me
was unhappy in England. Gloria claimed that Little Gloria had
been forced to write this either by Nurse Keieslich or
by Laura Morgan, but she had no evidence to support

(49:56):
her claim. More damning was Smith's account of Gloria's travels
during her daughter's lifetime. Between nineteen twenty five and nineteen
thirty three, Gloria had traveled almost constantly, never staying in
one place for more than a few months. After Smith
took her through all of these trips, he asked, quote,

(50:18):
did you spend one percent of all the days of
the year with your child? Later, when Smith pressed her
on the issue again, Gloria shot back that Gertrude traveled
nearly as much, which was true, but Smith quickly rejoined, quote,
how does that compare with your absences time and again

(50:39):
with your daughter lying sick? He had made his point
On Tuesday, November thirteenth, after nearly seven weeks, both sides
rested just as Carew paused for a moment and then spoke.
In the matter of Vanderbilt, he had concluded that the child,

(51:00):
Gloria Laura Vanderbilt, should live with Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney. Justice.
Carew's full statement in court that day was a somewhat
ambiguous one. What he said was this quote. This child

(51:22):
is very much better off where it is than where
it was. Nevertheless, this mother is a young woman. I
don't think this child should be altogether taken from this woman.
The child certainly today is very very strongly prejudiced against
the mother. I would be glad if the mother could
have an opportunity, first of all, to win back the

(51:45):
confidence and affection of the child, and second to show
that her future conduct will not be as her past
conduct has been. Nathan Burkin was confused. How was Gloria
Vanderbilt supposed to make a stronger connection with her daughter
if the child was living with another woman, a woman

(52:05):
who was hostile to Gloria. Carew responded that that was
for the lawyers to sort out. The custody arrangement would
be hammered out in a series of conferences over the
next week. Ultimately, it was determined that little Gloria would
stay with Gertrude during the school week and with Gloria
on the weekends. Carew especially wanted Gloria to have her

(52:28):
daughter on the weekends so that they could attend Catholic
Mass together, which seemed to be his largest concern. No
one was happy with this outcome, it wasn't an outcome
that made much sense from a variety of perspectives. For
those with firsthand knowledge of the case, who had witnessed
little Gloria's apparent terror of her mother, it seemed preposterous

(52:53):
that weekends together would reconcile the pair. For those on
the outside, in the press and the public, the decision
seemed illogical. Justice Carew's full decision criticized Gloria Vanderbilt's quote
mode of life. If her mode of life was so terrible,
many wondered, why was he allowing her custody at all.

(53:16):
The United States Law Review published a cheeky poem which
summed up the public feeling quote, rock a bye baby,
up on a writ Monday to Friday. Mother's unfit as
the weekends she rises in virtue Saturday's Sunday's mother won't
hurt you. A Family Court judge, writing on the decision declared, quote,

(53:40):
the mere fact that the court believes the parent is
not pursuing the wisest course in the rearing of the
child does not justify taking the child from the parent.
People also criticized the idea of a judge dictating a
child's religious education. Carew had somehow not expected this criticism.

(54:02):
Throughout the trial, he had struggled with the high profile
nature of the case. By November, he had begun screaming
at reporters. He called press conferences and then abruptly canceled them.
He compared himself out loud, this time to King Solomon,
leading reporters to dub him the Socialites Solomon. The bad

(54:25):
reaction to his decision seemed to deeply affect Carew. Two
years later, he checked into a hospital in Connecticut that
specialized in treating nervous breakdowns. Nathan Berkin was also profoundly
impacted by the trial. Normally tough and unrelenting, he had
become emotionally involved in this case and was brought to

(54:47):
tears by Justice Carew's decision. He felt personally responsible for
Gloria Vanderbilt's public humiliation. It had been his imprudent questioning
that elicited Maria Coyote's scandalous TESTI. He promised to appeal
the case. His first appeal failed. The Appellate Division of
the New York State Supreme Court upheld Carew's ruling. Burkin,

(55:11):
undaunted appealed again asking the United States Supreme Court to
review the case. He worked day and night on this
final appeal, but in the spring of nineteen thirty six,
the Supreme Court declined to hear the case. Several months later,
on June sixth, nineteen thirty six, Nathan Burkin died, aged

(55:34):
only fifty six. He had a great heart, said his associate,
Herman Finkelstein, and I think this case broke it. And
what of Little Gloria. After the trial, everyone simply forgot
about Gloria. Her cousin Gerda Henry recalled. Gerda, who grew

(55:56):
up at Wheatley Hills with Little Gloria, described their childhood
as a lonely one quote, we were so much alone.
My grandmother and my parents both would leave for months
at a time. We never saw anybody but servants. Little
Gloria and Gertrude's relationship was always a distant one, mainly

(56:18):
due to Gertrude's aloofness. Little Gloria would later write, quote,
I felt that she wanted to be close to me
as much as I wanted to be close to her.
She extended herself to me as much as it was
possible within her nature to do. The hard shell that
Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney had cultivated to protect her interior life

(56:41):
prevented her from ever making a true connection with her niece.
As Little Gloria grew older, she chafed against Gertrude's strict
restrictions on her. In nineteen thirty nine, when she was fifteen,
she asked the court to adjust the custody arrangement so
that she could her mother whenever she wished. Both Gertrude

(57:03):
and the court agreed to this arrangement, and then in
nineteen forty one, Little Gloria, now seventeen, moved to Los
Angeles to live with her mother and her mother's twin, Telma.
But even then a happy home life eluded her. Her
mother seemed uncertain of how to act around her, and

(57:25):
more interested in her own social life than in connecting
with her daughter. The elder Gloria drank heavily, unexpectedly, disappeared
on weekend trips, and spent many nights at the apartment
of her girlfriend, the actress Keeddy Kevin. The situation was
untenable for Little Gloria, now no longer so little. In

(57:47):
her memoir, she wrote, quote I couldn't go on living
with my mother, and I wasn't going back to live
with Aunt. Gertrude best get married quick. On December twenty eighth,
nineteen forty one, two months before her eighteenth birthday, Gloria
married thirty two year old Pat de Chico, a Hollywood agent. Unfortunately,

(58:10):
Di Chico was physically and emotionally abusive. Gertrude strongly disapproved
of the marriage, and the relationship between aunt and niece
became strained. Four months after the wedding, on April eighteenth,
nineteen forty two, Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney died, aged sixty seven.

(58:30):
In nineteen forty five, Gloria turned twenty one and got
control of her trust. She divorced Pat di Chico and
married conductor Leopold Stekovski, forty two years her senior, the
next day, shortly after, she cut her mother off financially.
She later said that it was Leopold's idea for her

(58:51):
to do this, but it was true that the mother
and daughter were estranged. They fought publicly in the press.
Gloria and Leopold had two sons before divorcing. In October
nineteen fifty five. Laura Morgan died in nineteen fifty six.
Gloria married the director Sidney Lamette the same year. They divorced.

(59:13):
In nineteen sixty three. Gloria would write of her many marriages, quote,
my search for love has and always will be to
revive the dream of fulfilling the half forgotten, inevitably frustrated
wishes for perfect harmony and complete mutuality, wishes that originated

(59:34):
in the now buried fantasy of obtaining the perfect mother
to love me unerringly and unceasingly. The men are substitutes,
let's say, substitutes for my old sweetheart. In nineteen sixty three,
Gloria finally found a good substitute, a writer named Wyatt Cooper.

(59:59):
Wyatt came from a tight knit Mississippi family, and Gloria
would later remember quote, when I met his large, loving family,
I was overwhelmed to see what it must have been
like to experience a supportive family behind you. Wyatt and
Gloria had two sons together, including Anderson, who became a

(01:00:19):
famous news anchor. Wyatt tragically died during surgery in nineteen
seventy eight. He was, in Gloria's words, quote the most
honest person I've ever met, and his sense of values
taught me what the loving parenting I never had could
be like. Two years after Gloria and Wyatt married, the

(01:00:41):
elder Gloria died on February thirteenth, nineteen sixty five. The
mother and daughter's relationship had never been an easy one,
but in recent years it had thawed. In nineteen eighty seven,
Gloria wrote of her mother quote, although I still search
for her, and part of me probably always will, it

(01:01:03):
is an ache I have learned to live with, and
we have found she and I a place of peace
where we rest together, closer perhaps in death than we
ever were in life. On June seventeenth, twenty nineteen, little
Gloria herself died, aged ninety five. She had found great

(01:01:26):
success in the field of fashion design and true happiness
in her family and friends, but her childhood haunted her.
How could it not. Her early life was deeply unstable,
populated by people who were supposed to care for her,
but who, for their own reasons, could not. No one

(01:01:47):
had ever simply sat down with little Gloria and tried
to figure out what would be best for her. The
Vanderbilt money, which brought so much luxury to its owners,
also brought great stree. It prevented family members from talking
to each other, from being honest. It inspired greed and possessiveness.

(01:02:10):
It hired lawyers. It made what could have been a
simple problem a horrifically difficult one. Is it any surprise
that when little Gloria, now grown up, first saw the
television program Judge Judy, she had a fantasy that this
woman could have solved the problem for her. Judge Judy

(01:02:33):
wouldn't subject me to the hostile formality of a trial,
Gloria wrote. Instead, I'd be invited to sit up beside
her on the bench for a cozy chat, so she
could get a sense of what I was like and
what I wanted. That's the story of the matter of Vanderbilt.

(01:02:54):
Stay with me after the break to learn the answer
to the trial's most enduring mystery, why who was Little
Gloria so afraid of her mother? In nineteen eighty, the
journalist and author Barbara Goldsmith published Little Gloria Happy at Last.

(01:03:16):
The book, which is an extremely well reported and comprehensive
account of the case, brought renewed interest to the trial.
In nineteen eighty two, the book was adapted into a
television mini series, which was nominated for six Emmy Awards.
The little Gloria in question was now in her late fifties,
and she was not happy about the book or TV show.

(01:03:38):
Her son Anderson Cooper recalled she never read the book
nor watched the series. But in nineteen eighty five, perhaps
in response to Goldsmith's book, Gloria published her own account
of the trial as part of a memoir called Once
Upon a Time. In this memoir, Gloria finally explained her

(01:03:59):
own behavior jury the trial, which had long unseettled observers,
Gloria had seemed to experience extreme fear at the idea
of living with her mother. This fear was central to
Justice Carew's decision to have her live with Gertrude. Goldsmith
had theorized in her book that, based on the constant

(01:04:20):
fears about kidnapping at the time, and exacerbated by her
grandmother and nanny's obsession with the subject, little Gloria had
been afraid that her mother would kidnap and kill her.
In Once upon a Time, Little Gloria provides a different answer.
Her fear was not of having to live with her mother.

(01:04:41):
She said it was of losing her beloved nanny, Nurse Keislich,
who she called Dodo. Dodo, despite her helicopter nannying loved
and cared for Gloria, and the child was terrified of
losing her. Why did she believe that that her mother
would fire Dodo because her grandmother, Laura Morgan, had told

(01:05:05):
her so. Gloria paints a terrifying portrait of Laura Morgan,
a woman so obsessed with status that she schemed to
remove her granddaughter from her daughter's custody in order to
bring herself closer to the Vanderbilt name and fortune. Gloria
said that Laura had fed her harsh words to write

(01:05:27):
down in letters about her mother, letters that would later
be used at trial. Laura told Gloria to pretend to
hate her mother. She told her to play sick. She
told her to be affectionate towards Gertrude Whitney. If she
did these things, Laura told her, Gloria would not lose
her beloved Dodo. Unfortunately, Laura's scheme fell apart. The only

(01:05:54):
clear outcome of the trial was the loss of Dodo,
whose disturbing performance on the stand had convinced both sides
that she needed to go. She was instructed to leave
Wheatley Hills and cease contact with the child. Gloria wrote
of the horrifying moment that she learned Dodo would be leaving, saying,

(01:06:16):
from that moment to this nothing has ever been the
same again. When Gloria finally reunited with Kieslik as a teenager,
she vowed to never leave her again. She financially supported
Kieslick for years, even having her live with her at
one point. However, even this relationship eventually soured. Kieslick loved Gloria,

(01:06:42):
It's true, but the love was not a healthy one.
She saw the child as an extension of herself, not
as an individual. Reflecting on this dynamic, Gloria wrote, quote,
when I was a child, she gave me the love
of a mother, But when I grew up, it was
hard for her to do this. Perhaps some mothers can

(01:07:04):
love their young only when they are that. The final
breaking point came during Gloria's marriage to the director Sidney Lamett,
who was Jewish. Kieslich was anti Semitic. She had, in
fact made anti Semitic comments to Nathan Burkan during the
trial and Gloria could not tolerate her prejudices. By the

(01:07:25):
time Keeeslick died in nineteen seventy three, Gloria had not
spoken to her for more than a decade, but not
being by Dodo's side at her death would be one
of Gloria's greatest regrets. The Dodo, for all her faults,
had loved Gloria, and love, as Anderson Cooper notes in

(01:07:45):
his account of the trial, is the one thing that,
despite all of their other privileges, the Vanderbilt family never
seemed to have enough of. Thank you for listening to
History on Trial. My main sources for this episode were
Barbara Goldsmith's book Little Gloria, Happy at Last and Gloria

(01:08:06):
Vanderbilt's memoirs, including Once Upon a Time and It seemed
important at the time. For a full bibliography, as well
as a transcript of this episode with citations, please visit
our website History on Trial podcast dot com. History on
Trial is written and hosted by me Mira Hayward. The

(01:08:29):
show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk, with supervising
producer Trevor Young and executive producers Dana Schwartz, Alexander Williams,
Matt Frederick, and Mira Hayward. Learn more about the show
at History on Trial podcast dot com and follow us
on Instagram at History on Trial and on Twitter at

(01:08:50):
Underscore History on Trial. Find more podcasts from iHeartRadio by
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