Hoops Tonight - NBA Contenders: Will Warriors stay hot? LeBron & Lakers obstacle, who stops Celtics - Hoops Tonight with Jason Timpf

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.

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(01:37):
You're at the volume heavy Wednesday, everybody. I hope all
of you guys are having a great week. I figured now,
right before we head into our Thanksgiving break is the
best time for us to touch base on contenders. And
I've done a lot of power rankings. I've done a
lot of game breakdowns. I've done a lot of film breakdowns.
I've done a lot of arguing of various sorts. But
I have yet to reapproach my contend rankings. And so

(02:01):
what I'd like to do is do what I've done
every time we've done tender rankings over the last couple
of years, which is have my good friend Sam Vessini
from The Athletic on the show to break it all down.
First of all, Sam, how are you doing, man? How
is life down in Melbourne? No Thanksgiving right here?

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Life is great. We you know, Thanksgiving unsurprisingly, given the
nature of what Thanksgiving is with the Pilgrims and the
Indians or the Native Americans, I'm sorry coming together and
you know, having a meal that didn't really happen here.
So you know, at the end of the day, my
wife's father is American and by nature, my wife is an American.

(02:40):
Because of that, she's dual citizenship. So we had like
a little get together with you know, fifteen twenty people,
some of my wife's parents' friends and everything. And yeah,
we have a Thanksgiving meal every year, just on the weekend,
not on Thursday. My Thursday will be a normal Thursday
for me.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Thursday is a horribly inconvenient day for us to do
this giant amount of cooking and social life before we
all go back to work on Friday. My wife works
in retail, so she'd end up ends up having a
crazy day. Then I used to work in retail ages ago,
so like that is what it is. But any excuse
to cook some turkey or Prime Rib or a big
prime Rib family. That's something that we do around our house.
But I want to start on a very basic concept,

(03:18):
which is when we did our contender rankings to start
the year, I had four teams in that tier, which
was Boston. I had Denver two, and then I had
OKAC three, and I had New York four. You had
Boston and Oklahoma City on their own tier. I've watched
quite a bit of Oklahoma City this year, especially in
the last week, and I'm actually starting to view Boston

(03:39):
as on a tier by themselves. And my case for
that is not that Oklahoma City doesn't have the potential
to improve, because they've underachieved a little bit offensively to
this point in the season, and I know that they'll
get better in time. And I'm liking their early returns
on Isaiah Hartenstein, both as like a connective passer and
also as a screener and all that kind of stuff.
The thing specific that has me a little hesitant with

(04:01):
Oklahoma City, and I want you to either talk me
off the led to or agree, is their decision making
in the half court kind of reminds me of Boston
a few years ago. Where their talent is almost the
enemy of their success sometimes and their pursuit of the
best shot or a great shot is not quite where

(04:23):
it needs to be relative to where Boston is, where
you can tell they have their stretches of bad shot selection,
but they're better at settling down and maintaining focus for longer.
So what have been your concerns with Oklahoma City's offense
and do you still consider them to be on the
same tier as Boston.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
So I would have Boston. I think I said I
had Boston one A and Oklahoma City one B previously.
I think that if we're, you know, doing the tier
system here, I would probably have Boston at number one,
Oklahoma City at number two, but would have Oklahoma City.
Like if Boston is the highest end of that tier,
maybe Oklahoma City is like the lowest end of what

(05:00):
a Tier one team looks like. And the reason for
that is, Look, we'll talk about the offensive things that
you brought up, and I think they're all valid. Actually,
I do Oklahoma City's defense to start the year. Like
when we talked about Oklahoma City, I think I said
that they were almost guaranteed to be like a top
three defense, like almost no matter what they did, that's

(05:22):
probably where they're going to be. Do you know what
they were defensively before chet Holmgren got hurt and they
had to start experimenting with these like Jalen Williams at
the center lineups. They were They were not just number one,
they were number one by like eight points per one
hundred possessions over number two. They had a ninety seven

(05:43):
point five defensive rating in the game before chet Holmgren
got hurt. So we all expected, Hey, team that was
a top five defense last year goes out, gets Alex
Caruso and Isaiah Hartenstein, two of what I would argue
are probably in the top fifteen to twenty defenders across

(06:05):
the entire NBA, and adding them into your lineup, along
with improvement from Cason Wallace, who is another really really
good defender. You know, it was very hard to envision
this team not being a super high level defense, But
I think I somehow underestimated how good they might be
on defense. So that's where I would start and why

(06:26):
I think that they are in that top tier with
Boston because they still have all the line of flexibility
that we talked about in the preseason. The ability to
match high or match big with Christopson Al Horford, or
matchup against Yokich, or the ability to go small, which
they've now gotten to showcase with like even hyper super

(06:46):
small lineups with Jalen Williams at the five let alone,
just like the flexibility they having Chet at the five
brings you in terms of five out spacing. So I'm
excited about that. The offensive decision making, the overall offensive flow,
especially late in games, I do agree with you generally
that it can get a little bit stagnant. I think

(07:08):
that in general, Shay gilg Just Alexander and Jalen Williams
are great players, great drivers of the ball. They're not
selfish players by any stretch of the imagination. I just
don't know that they consistently make the super super high
level reads all the time for two guys that are

(07:31):
going to have the ball in their hands late in games.
You know, It's not like Anthony Edwards level, which has
been you know somehow. I don't know if he's regressed.
We'll probably talk about the Wolves a little bit later,
but he feels like he is certainly not taking a
step forward in regard to late game decision making. They're
not that level in terms of frustrating, but I do

(07:52):
think that they need to take that next step forward
in terms of being able to consistently just make the
high level reads over the last five minutes of the
game when defense is really tightened up.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
The point you made about the defense is important, and
it's one that I think I've undersold in my coverage
of Oklahoma City in the sense that like they have
a lot of the similar kind of like perimeter athleticism, strength,
ground coverage, all the stuff we've talked about, the ability
to pressure the ball, keeping waves of defenders coming in
the game. The one difference is Boston just has a
little bit more size on the perimeter just because of

(08:26):
the Tatum Jalen Brown piece. But I in a weird way,
like I think lou Dort kind of has a lot
of size in his own way, Like I don't think
it's a coincidence that lou Dort made Luca feel a
hell of a lot more uncomfortable than Jaden McDaniels did,
for instance, last year.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
The piece that makes it.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Different is everyone talks about Chrisapsportzincas as the rim protector. Right,
It's like, Okay, we got a rim protector back. Boston
doesn't really have a rim protector. This is that other
element of that you know, kind of elite defensive profile
that we've seen over the years that said, like Chet
is a rim protector that also has ground coverage, and

(09:02):
that is the thing that makes him so terrifying, and
what makes that entire unit so terrifying is like they
can engage in high level defensive you know process that
we've seen around the league in terms of keeping Chet
at the rim, which we've already seen, Like we've seen
stuff like him communicating with guards off ball to make

(09:22):
sure he's always the low man instead of getting pulled up.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
High and things along those lines.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
And when you combine that with the layers of perimeter
d I actually would agree that I think Oklahoma City
can actually get to a higher level defensively than Boston
can get. There are like Oklahoma City started to freak
me out a little bit in the Dallas series with
their incessant challenging of the rim protectors.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
I said this on my show yesterday.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
It kind of reminded me of Boston against Milwaukee in
the second round of twenty twenty two. If you remember
where those idiots kept trying Brook Lopez at the rim,
like the series kept oscillating back and forth when Jalen
Brown and Jason Tatum would make better reads when they
got to the rim, you know what I mean, Like
because they had the ability to get great looks whenever
they wanted to, but they would bog down too often

(10:11):
through that bad process. And so I think, like I remember,
coming into the season, I talked about how my main
concerns were, like, Jalen Williams and Chad Holmgren are basically
your number two, and they're very young and very inexperienced,
and they're going to be asked to carry significant stretches
of basketball in big moments. And so that is the
part to me that I get. I just get a

(10:33):
little bit concerned about, is just are they grown up
enough to be in a big playoff game against a
really good team late and to make the right decisions
they need to make. Because as we look back on Dallas, Sam,
Dallas is good. I think they're firmly in that second
tier of championship contending teams. But I didn't think they

(10:54):
were in the top tier last year. I thought they
were a team that caught some favorable matchups and got
out of the West, which means, okay, see basically got
upset in that second round series by Dallas, and so
I would argue they're further away than that series would
lead you to believe. And so I'm just I'm just
a little bit skeptical of that decision making process. What
have you seen from Jalen Williams that makes you feel

(11:15):
like he might be ready for that sort of thing
this year?

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Everything is kind of the answer. Jaler Williams been unbelievable.
If you look at his last ten games since they've
been you know, basically without chat for a large portion
of that run, he's really had to step up. He's
averaging twenty five points, seven rebounds, six assists versus only
two point three turnovers, two point two steals, one point
three blocks. I think he has also sneaky taken a

(11:41):
big step forward defensively without a lot of people necessarily
recognizing yet. But by the way, he's shooting fifty seven
forty ninety four over that run in his last ten games.
So again, like Jalen Williams is one of those guys
where I think you and I have been talking about
him for like three years. As if there's a guy
I'm betting on in the league right now that you

(12:04):
know people, you can't give me enough stock of his Basically,
there's not enough. There's not enough out there that I
won't just buy it all and be happy with the results.
At a certain point. To me, he's going to be
an All NBA player, and this year he is starting
to take steps toward being that. At the very least
so far, I think he has been one of the

(12:25):
ten best players in the Western Conference to this point,
so you see where he is going. And I still
think that there are moments kind of like we discussed
where late in games they do give him the ball
quite a bit, and he does need to just continue
to improve small decision making issues in terms of overdriving

(12:46):
to the basket. For some reason, and I can't quite
figure out what this is, he is like the most
like physical dude. He drives and slashes constantly. He is
physical at the point of attack, defensive, he just does
not draw fowls for whatever reason. Even in this great
run where he's been unbelievable, he's still only getting three

(13:08):
foul shots per game. I don't know if it's a
I can't put my finger on if it's if it's
a footwork thing where he's kind of leaning away, if
it's a thing where he just doesn't have their respective
officials yet. I think that might be part of it. Honestly,
I can't tell why he doesn't get calls around the basket,

(13:28):
but he does drive into the basket pretty regularly in
a way that you would expect him to eventually draw fouls.
That's really the next step for him, if he starts
drawing fouls in the way that somebody like Jimmy Butler does,
and he has the ability to do that because of
his physical frame, like he can take contact, absorb it,
and finish through contact. I don't I don't know. Man

(13:49):
like that guy looks like he could be a top
ten player in the league at some point. And if
you have him an Shay, maybe.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
It's a year early.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
You know, maybe he doesn't work out those kind of
issues and doesn't get to the line and things like
that happen. But I don't know. They just might not
be as good as Boston, Like Boston was terrifying last
night against the Clippers at the end of the day,
like they were insane. That was Christop's first game, and
like you could just see the impact he had immediately,
Like they start, they didn't know what to do, Like

(14:18):
they started with zoobots on him, and then they started running,
like even with bench units they at Houser and Pritchard
come in, Like they'll run Prichard and Hauser as ball screeners.
They'll run them as the backman in stack pick and rolls.
They'll do like early exit stacks. They'll do just like
late release stacks where a screener gets there. They will

(14:39):
like run all sorts of different options in terms of
trying to find you know, creative avenues in transition. If
you are off even by the slightest smallest angle in
transition defense, if you are overloaded to one side by
one person, they will kill you because they will spread

(14:59):
out to the three point line and they will make
shots atay forty five to fifty percent clip probably in transition.
So and then on top of it, you saw the
Clippers trying to adjust, they would go, Okay, we're gonna
put zoobots on Drew. Holiday that didn't work because then
you've got a smaller guy in KP, and KP can
put as.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
The primary defender for a stretch of that game is insane.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
It was just like, well, okay, I get it. Maybe
you want zu bots to be the help defender and
you want him around the basket. They use Drew Holliday
as a cutter pretty regularly, but Drew Holliday is a
freaking All Star and multi time like Gold medalist. He's
able to take guys off the bounce on the perimeter.
He just doesn't do it because he doesn't have to
within that offense. So they just have so many different

(15:43):
ways to beat you at the end of the day.
That's my main concern and main issue if I was
Oklahoma City. Look, Boston's the best team in the league.
Like that's the reality of this, and their their highest
level is better than anybody else's highest level. It's just
whether or not they get to the playoffs clean.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
I think, Yeah, I'm on the same page with you.
I think I would. I think I make them a
slight favorite to win the title, even if Porzingis never
played another game this year. Like that's that's that's how
I feel about them in general as is. And so yeah, yeah,
the James Harden and Porzingis thing was was a little
weird because I'm just watching James Harden inattentively stand around

(16:19):
as Porzingis just walks inside position on him and gets
an offensive rebound put back, and I'm.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
Like, what are we even doing here?

Speaker 2 (16:25):
So We're on the same page there at the Boston's
level one, it just sounds to me like I have okay, see,
I'm kind of a separate tier and you kind of
have them as just like kind of hanging on to
that top tier, just kind of almost at that level.

(16:49):
So the next two teams that have been big surprises
in the early part of the season a couple of
things that make it difficult to interpret. For instance, the
Cleveland Cavaliers have seven teen wins, but only four of
them have been against teams that are currently five hundred
are better, which makes them difficult to interpret. And then
the Golden State Warriors are a twelve and five in
the Western Conference. Do you give either of those teams

(17:14):
a real chance to win four playoff rounds based on
what you've seen from them here in the early going?

Speaker 1 (17:21):
The Warriors, I think no, They're the easier answer to
me because I feel like the Warriors are getting by
with depth and with like eleven man lineups in Cleveland
is too, by the way, Like that's an underrated thing
that's happening with the Cavs, Like their bench has been
unbelievable to this point, led by Tijerome, But like the Warriors,

(17:41):
it feels like are getting by with just like a
ton of really smart basketball players that know how to
play the game, that know how to run that scheme.
And I don't even know that they necessarily have unbelievable
ways to match up with you, Like they don't have
an enormous front line, right like Tray Shackson Davis is

(18:01):
an undersized center. Kaman Looney probably isn't like totally undersized,
but kun Looney just like might not be good enough
anymore to like anchor a defense. So they're almost always
gonna have to go small right in order to get
the most out of their lineups. And if you go
small against, for instance, the Denver Nuggets, if you go

(18:23):
small against this iteration of the Oklahoma City Thunder, I
think you're gonna have problems now if because they can
go big against you, and they can go Hartenstein and
chat once we see chet back, and that's a whole
other thing, like what is Check gonna be once he
gets back. From what I understand about the hip injury,
it's one of these is that it's a from what
I understand, it's just like a pain thing. It's not

(18:44):
something that will like inflict upon his mobility, uh moving forward,
or like even once he heals from it. It's just
literally like when the pain stops kind of thing, and
once the injury itself, the fracture heals, right.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
So.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
Fractures for a while too.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, Like I think he'll be back this year. It's
just like, look, I can't sit here and tell you
like the level that he's definitely gonna be back at,
but that what I will say about Chet is like,
you know, people look at him. He's missed his whole
rookie season. He's going to miss a portion of this year. Now,
don't mistake that with like a lack of toughness necessarily,
Like he suffered a serious injury in that pro am game.

(19:28):
He suffered a serious injury where he fractured that bone
in his hip or whatever, uh in this game against
the Golden State Warriors who were talking about and Andrew Wiggins.
So don't mistake that though with a lack of toughness.
Like chet Holmgren will get out there and play. He
will play through the pain like if Oklahoma City allows him.

(19:49):
It's just whether or not he's going to be able
to or not. Don't don't take that, you know, one
way or another in terms of his lack of pain tolerance.
On the Warriors, I just don't know that they have
enough talent. It's kind of where I'm at with them.
Like they have a lot of depth, They have a
lot of interesting depth. That cool thing about them is

(20:10):
that if a star comes available for whatever reason this season,
they are very well positioned to be able to go
get that star. If they want to extend out the
Stephan Curry window. They have Jonathan kaminga who they decided
not to extend, which makes him a potential trade target.
They have all of their picks moving forward, which gives
them a number of potential avenues to create deals. Even

(20:33):
somebody I think like Cam Johnson would really help them
immensely just in terms of offensive flow, structure, consistent spacing.
When Buddy Healed isn't on the court. Buddy Healed started
the season incredibly well. Over the class six yes, six
or seven games he's cooled way off and he's really
hard to have out there defensively. So there are matchups

(20:54):
where he's gonna have it. There are gonna be nights
where he has it. But what do you do when
he doesn't have it? Is a big question for Golden
State on offense. For me right now, I mean, where
do you fall on them? Let's let's start with us
the way we go to the calves here.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
I found the Warriors to be kind of proof of
concept of a couple of key things that you and
I both believe in at a really high level in
terms of our kind of like basketball worldview. And like
you said depth, I think it's not just depth, it's
a depth of a specific type of player, which is
like a fast player who's pretty good at everything, like

(21:32):
not necessarily.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Like there's thinks fast.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yes, the big thing fast exactly.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
And like I've thought so much about just kind of
the way the game has changed, particularly in the regular season.
And I'm glad you mentioned that there's a talent limit
there because this has been something that's been a difficult
pill for some Warriors fans to swallow over the course
of the start of the season. And I don't blame them,
because every fan base can get a little bit arrogant

(21:58):
when their team starts to rack up wins. But like
there is a there is a certain type of game
that Golden State can play that shows and spits teams
out in terms of the way that they pressure the ball,
in terms of the way that they fly around and rotate.
They have these some of the sharpest closeouts I see
in the league come out of Golden State and their
ability to defend the three point line while also offering

(22:20):
help there. It's it's a it's a principle that I
believe in very strongly now, which is that the best
foundational like trait that any roster can have is to
have a bunch of big athletes on the perimeter that
compete and I think like specifically on the perimeter, that

(22:40):
can cover ground and that play hard. You need a
good variety two of like different sizes and types, but
you need that type of type of trade.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
I don't. I can't.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
I would argue besides foundational superstar, of which there's only
four or five in the entire league, that's the most
important thing you can have is a trove of athletes.
Would you agree at that point as the number.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Look ros, yeah, I was gonna say, like, I'll give
you an example. Like Atlanta this year has been like
pretty feisty and competitive for the most part, despite not
having DeAndre Hunter and Bogden mcdonovich for like a majority
of the year. Right. I know that they've lost like
three in a row and like they haven't played super
super well over the course of the last week, but like,

(23:21):
that's a team that is feisty and in large part
their biggest additions this summer, we're Dyson Daniels, Zachary Rissa Chet,
guys that are feisty, that are long, they can cover
ground defensively. Like, those guys really really help, I think
in terms of what Atlanta is looking to do with,
you know, surrounding Trey Young with talent. Right, you know,

(23:42):
Trey Young is probably not one of those foundational superstars,
but he is somebody that is an incredible offensive talent,
and having those guys around him allows him just to
go and be like, hey, create the offense every night,
Please don't be a total sieve on defense, and you know,
we trust that we'll be able to rack you know,
maybe not a five hundred team, but we might get
to thirty five to forty wins. Maybe the antithesis of

(24:07):
this is another team that I'm sure we'll talk about today,
The Bucks. Right the Bucks have really struggled with that,
and that's a big reason why on some level they
are playing below their talent level, even though Yannis over
the last I would argue two and a half three weeks,
this might be the best I've ever seen Yannis play
on offense. Just point blank, he has been.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
He's been so good, otherworldly.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
You can maybe say the final series against the Suns,
and I would hear that out as well. But like,
what he's adding now is the mid range jumper and
every like, it's a totally different beast to deal with
with Yannis. So the fact that they don't have that
foundational perimeter skill and speed and understanding of how to
close out onto shooters, that is a critical, critical thing

(24:54):
that they're missing right now, and they need to go
out and find that at the trade deadline, you know,
before the trade line. Frankly, hopefully.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
One of the things I've appreciated with the Bucks is
like they kind of have found it a little bit.
They found a little bit of a baseline for them
for forty eight minutes at the point of attack between
ajax And and aj Green, who I actually think has
done a pretty damn good job guarding the ball, and
he's like these converting spot ups that like damn near
point and a half for possessions, so like that they

(25:24):
kind of have like found their little formula there where.
Shout out to Brooke and Giannis, by the way, those
two guys have had a flashback defensive stretch here over
the last couple of weeks, nothing like a nothing like
a disastrous and two and eight start to kind of
like to kick you in the butt a little bit
and get you moving. But like, yeah, I that has
become my biggest You and I have talked about this

(25:46):
at various points over the course of the last few years,
and it's manifested in different like kind of like buzzwords,
but I remember for you it was ground coverage. That
was the thing that you said to me in our
postseason kind of conversation last year. And for me, I've
been referring to it as perimeter athleticism, but it basically
means the exact same thing. But I've viewed that as
like the baseline and then the second piece of it,

(26:08):
and I think some of the success that Dallas has
had without Luca in the last couple of weeks has
been a great example of this is creating space by
allowing your big men to operate as screening and passing
folcrums from the perimeter rather than occupying space around the rim.
And this has been a Golden State staple for over
a decade now. But this is something we've seen all
around the league. The Dallas when they are trying to

(26:32):
run offense with Luke off the floor, it's a lot
of Lively at the top of the key with guards
screening for each other and cutting off of them. They
ran like a blender possession against the Nuggets when they
beat them the other night, where they had Kyrie come
running off of a Derek Lively dribble hand off at
the top, but it was a fake. He didn't get it.
Then Quintin Grimes came flying off the dribble hand off.

(26:52):
He did get it. As he got it, Lively rolled,
but then as he rolled he kind of dragged Jamal
Murray into the payton. Nasey Marshall relocated to the top,
got a little close that opportunity to be Jamal murraybou
Jamal Murray, by the way, some of the worst defense
I've seen ever from a player in the last couple
of games from him. It's his little comment that he
threw out that this was part of my video that

(27:12):
I recorded today that just disappeared into the ether. But
Jamal Murray had a Jamal Murray had a yeah for
the hoops to night listeners, I did work today. You're
just not gonna see the video because it doesn't exist anymore.
That we had a little mac crisis today. But anyway,
Jamal Murray like went out and started talking about his
teammates partying partying in Los Angeles and then was the
reason why they like got eviscerated by the Knicks. But anyway,

(27:35):
my basketball worldview has come around to this idea that like,
if you are not creating space around the rim by
using your bigs further away from the rim as screening
and passing folkrums, if you are not getting the ball
side to side, if you do not have multiple ball
handling threats on the floor, there's a ceiling to your offense,
especially when you get to the light playoff rounds. It's

(27:55):
something that I feel very very passionately about, and like
ironically it kind of the gap to Cleveland because in
the same way that Golden State, to me is proof
of concept of two ideas, which is that offensive organization
piece I was just talking about, in that perimeter athleticism piece,
the Caves to me are kind of another example of
Kenny Atkinson bringing a lot of the same ideologies to

(28:18):
Cleveland in terms of how to play offense, how to
defend as well with the switching and containing. But like
staying on Golden State for a second, to put it
very simply, like there right now, there's way too much
like Andrew Wiggins needs to be our savior for this
thing to work out, and like he's been playing really well.
Like I pulled this out on my mythological show that

(28:41):
existed earlier today. I said that Andrew Wiggins had played
four games in a row and scored twenty plus points
for the first time since May of twenty twenty one
in this recent stretch, and he only had eighteen in
the lost to Brooklyn last night. But like the previous
four games, he's like he's been playing really, really well,
and like I've been saying, like the Warriors need like
specifically a front court type of player who can pretty

(29:02):
reliably get them to twenty points a game efficiently and
can create his own shot without having to rely on
Steph And like, one of the things that's things that's
happening is and this is where it went off the
rails for them in the Brooklyn game last night, is
their bench units really struggle to score unless Buddy Heield's
just making everything. And Buddy Hild, even when he was hot,
was making a lot of pretty tough, tightly contested shots.

(29:25):
And so my thing is, like there's a lot of
guys who can get hot, Like Lindy Waters can get
hot and make shots. He's a little bit of a
movement shooter, right Like Jonathan Kamenka can go for twenty
five thirty on any given night. Like Buddyhield obviously can
get hot and make shots. Brandy Pozimski can get hot
and he can make shots. What they don't have is
a guy who's like kind of a more consistent night
to night shot creator. And what scares me for them

(29:47):
in the big picture is like I look around the
league and I'm like, Okay, Jimmy Butler makes some sense,
but I don't know if he's even got the juice
in the tank. Left brandon Ingram I think might be
a little bit too methodical and a little bit too
much of a ball stopper to make work Zach Lavine,
the salary and the concerns about his health. Is there
even a player that you see as a realistic trade

(30:07):
target that could move Golden State into that tier for you?

Speaker 1 (30:13):
I don't know that I have an answer to that. Unfortunately,
Jimmy is the answer to me. I think Jimmy, Jimmy
can get ball stoppy, but he also feel like I'm
on Seinfeld right now. Jimmy can get ball stoppy, but
like Jimmy and do that. But I think that when
he's within a scheme and within a flow like he's
more than happy to play within that. Right, I don't
know if Jimmy's gonna be available like the Miami Heater,

(30:36):
a team that constantly tries to contend. The only reason
that he would be potentially available is if they just decide,
you know what, he's a free agent. He's not resigning this, that,
and the other thing, right, and they're out of it
by February. That feels unlikely to me. It's not impossible
by any stretch, but like, I think they're gonna be
competitive enough to where they're gonna feel like they can
make a playoff run with Eric Bolstro with Jimmy Butler

(30:58):
and give this team like one final Roadie and you know,
chance at it with Jimmy and Bamcore. I don't know
that it would be that expensive necessarily to go get
Jimmy Butler for five months? Four months?

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Maybe would that changed it for you from just from
the same point of matching salaries. From what I understand,
it'd be like Wigans or no.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
I would still do it if I was them, You're
getting Jimmy Butler, and like honestly with Wiggins, if you
could parlay this great stretch of games into getting off
of that content. But more than anything like getting off
that contract, which this summer looked like it would be
unmovable or like immovable whatever that word is. Uh, that
is something I would probably do if I was them.

(31:41):
I would have to think about that, like in terms
of is that true or not, I'll have to I
would guess that it is off the top of my head,
but I'm sure that that's right now. Having like I'm
trying to think like, could you do could you like
Melton's deal, plus like a few other kind of things.
But I'd have to really kind of dive into it,

(32:03):
and you'd probably have to involve a third team as well.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
You might be able to a pretty tough fall off.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Wiggins makes twenty six, but after Draymond, you got Melton
at twelve, Peyton at nine, Kyle Anderson at nine, Buddy
Heel at nine, Kevin Kevon Looney at eight, So like
you could piece together deals, but you would give up
a couple of your key role players. The way I
put it on my show is like, I think it's
a February decision. I think if you get to February

(32:30):
and Wiggins is more or less the same player he's
been for the last couple of years, and Jimmy Butler
looks like he's got some juice but the Heat are
floundering in the play in again in a terrible Eastern Conference,
then you call him up and you see if you
can't work something out and you try to make a
run at it. But like, if Wiggins goes for twenty
plus and two thirds of his games for the next

(32:50):
two months, then I think you have to kind of
approach it in a different way. But yeah, with Golden State,
for me, like I think they're here. Here's where I'm at.
With Golden State. I think that they are certain to
finish above the play in as long as step stays
healthy because of that floor that we talked so much
about in terms of their perimeter, athleticism and scheme.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
But I don't take them.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Seriously as like a top tier championship contending threat unless
they get a legitimate number two next to Steph because again,
every other team we're talking about just has so much
more firepower at the top. It's like not even close.
And so that's where I get concerned with Cleveland. I
left that Celtics game way more like convinced that Boston

(33:32):
was on another tier than so many others, Like there
was a lot of stuff getting thrown out where it's like, oh, well,
Darius Garland played a bad game and we were down
all of our wings, and like, I want to be clear,
I don't think Cleveland's fraudulent or anything like that. I
think they're very clearly in that second tier of teams
somewhere in there.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
But when I think about.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
Cleveland, like like when I watched that game, I felt
like Boston every single time Cleveland made a push, they
were able to immediately regain control, which to me is
like when you see those games where it's like the
team always gets close, but they can't get over the top.
That to me is indicative of a trend where like
the team is able to kind of like refocus, get

(34:09):
the right shots, lock in on defense. Boston's defense has
been spotty at times this season from a commitment standpoint,
but then it's been like stifled, Like they had a
third quarter stretch against Minnesota the other night that was terrifying,
like like like where they completely put those dudes in jail.
And like I think I I a lot of the
stuff that I was concerned about, like, oh, they still

(34:29):
have entry points, like Darius Garland is an easy pathway
to get the calves in rotation. And yet you know what,
they got a massive frontline, but as soon as those
dudes start running around to shooters, it's not so massive
on the front line anymore.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
And so like I.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
View Cleveland as a very well constructed team that has
a very traditional built in their you know, kind of
two big look in terms of like the lots of
interior size, they're they're loading up in ball screens, all
that kind of stuff. The concern that I have is
like a lot of this is just really good organization

(35:05):
from Kenny Atkinson that is achieving a very high floor
in the regular season, that's gonna beat all the bad
teams in the league and certainly compete against the good
teams in the league. But when it comes down to
just the strict chess match of the half court battle
against a team like Boston, I just don't think that
they can get there. Is there are you higher on
Cleveland than I am?

Speaker 1 (35:26):
I think I'm probably a little bit higher. I guess
I'm like a little bit higher in theory because we
haven't seen what I'm about to say, like bear itself
out yet, because they haven't had Max Shruce. Max Strews
is like a huge addition for this team that they're
gonna get back because Max isn't just a shooter. He's
somebody that can guard. He can guard one on one,

(35:49):
he can close out onto shooters like he's not I'm
not gonna sit here and tell you he's like some
all defense guy or even like some incredible defender by
any stretch but I think he's solid on that end
in a way that to me, when I watched that
game against Boston, it wasn't that they just had Garland
on the court. It was that they had Garland and
Niang or Garland and Merrill or Garland, and like Ty

(36:13):
Jerome has actually been like pretty feisty this year defensively,
but he's not super fast, right, He gets by with
like really good hand eye coordination. He's being able to
that way, and he's six foot five, right. So it
was the fact that they had multiple entry points. If
you give Struce to them, and you know, also a

(36:33):
coor of cos vert boys guys being wide, I think
it at least could potentially limit how badly they get
hit when they're in rotation and when they have to
fly around and try and scramble and recover. But that's
just like theory for me right now, Like we haven't

(36:53):
seen Max Struce, and I think he's the one that
does it better than anybody because he allows you to
play the math game with Cleveland. He allows you to
smaller if you want to, with Evan Mobley at the five,
which I think is the key for them being able
to match up. They did that in this game. But
the problem was, and I love George Nyang as a player.
I think he's been really useful this year as a shooter,
as a you know, just general smart basketball player that

(37:16):
you can have on the court. He's just not fast
enough for that situation. I actually thought they made a
mistake not having Jared Allen.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
I thought that was the star.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, Like to me, like Jared Allen just is a
better defender on the perimeter than George Nyang. But I
think they wanted the shooting. I think they wanted the
spacing that comes with that. So, you know whatever, Right,
the problem for them is that I don't know how
anybody stops Boston. Like we just talked through their offense, right,
We're talking about all of this in theory. We're talking

(37:47):
about all this like in practicality, you need Boston to
have four games where they don't shoot well coinciding with
four games where you do shoot well, and we can
talk about the way that they get to these shots.
We can talk about the way that you know, these
things bear themselves out on the court from a matchup perspective.

(38:07):
From you know, Boston's entire offense is predicated upon finding mismatches. Right,
They're gonna bring Peyton Pritchard up to screen and get
Darius Garland on Jason Tatum. Right, They're gonna bring you know,
George n Yang up to screen and get him onto
Jalen Brown. That's the whole thing that they're trying to do.
And then they're gonna collapse and then they're gonna shoot
it out and spray it out and try and shoot threes,

(38:28):
or they're gonna dump it to Drew Holliday and the
dunker spot. Whatever they're gonna do. They have different ways
to get there, but that's ultimately their goal. Offensively, you
need to have days where you shoot well and they
shoot poorly. Sometimes the shots just don't go in right.
Like that that can happen where that is a thing

(38:49):
that happens. There is a luck factor to shooting on
some level. I think that it is maybe not as
big as the analytics people will say from time to time,
but there's undeniably thing of a luck factor where the
shot goes in or it doesn't go in right. You
need four days where that happens and four days where

(39:09):
on your end you're shooting it well against a group
of perimative defenders with Drew Holliday, Derek White, Jalen Brown
who's a really good on ball defender, Jason Tatum, who's
a really good off ball defender, Al Horford who can
switch out there because Sosporzingis who's an unbelievable rim protector.
You need to do that against that team. That's what
makes them such a difficult problem to solve. They beat

(39:30):
you on the math game, they beat you on the
matchups game. At the end of the day, Like, that's
just an incredibly hard problem for anybody, let alone Cleveland.
Cleveland would be clearly number two for me in the East.
Like I don't think that I like them more than
I like the Knicks by like a pretty real margin
right now. But it's just a it's you know, if

(39:53):
we're trying to compare them in terms of championship tiers
and contenders, it's I have worries about just anybody being
beating Boston at this point.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Cleveland has the similar to what we talked about Golden State.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
They just they're just a really good NBA team.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
They're well coached, they've got good players, they're super deep,
they have a bunch of different ways they can beat you.
It's strictly their top end that I'm concerned about, strictly
within the context of the other top tier teams in
the league. New York is a team that right now
I'm kind of considering beneath Cleveland, but I do think

(40:46):
they're a team that in the long run I could
view higher than Cleveland. New York is hitting an offensive
level here in the last couple of weeks that's kind
of terrifying. They've basically been operating around a one thirty
offensive rate for the blast like for the last couple
of weeks, and I thought that the game in Denver

(41:07):
was such a classic example of what makes them so
tough to guard, which is the unique combination of like
a superstar that consistently draws two to the ball, and
then a bunch of dudes are who are professional off
ball scores, like the like Michale Bridges has been scoring
off the ball since he was catching skip passes and
pick and roll from Chris Paul, you know, four or
five years ago, right like og Nanobi has turned into

(41:29):
one of the most gifted Like It's kind of looks
a little clunky sometimes, but he's such a gifted like
he's such a gifted like shot creator when a dude's
chasing him off the three point line. They have so
many smart players in that in that four on three
that inevitably comes from every single time Jalen Brunson brings
the ball out the floor, that they're just impossible to guard.

(41:49):
The thing that's bothering me is like they literally have
not played more than one or two good games of
defense this entire season. Even in their wins, they're not guarding,
Like they had a win streak where they won, you know,
four out of five, and like they were like out
of like a one to nineteen defensive rating in those
four wins against like Washington and like Brooklyn and like
just some really limited teams. And I have been trying

(42:12):
to investigate this Knicks defense problem for a while, and
I'm so curious to hear your opinion on it because
we haven't talked about it yet. But my initial impression
is it's a combination of some effort, focus, energy stuff,
like specifically some of their perimeter defenders are not having
good perimeter defensive seasons. And then two, there's a little

(42:36):
bit of like a schematic thing with TIBs that's driving
me crazy, which is like they like still are not
doing a ton of switching even when it's Og and
McHale and Josh in the action, They're still doing a
lot of overhelping and lingering that's completely unnecessary. There's some
of it that's unavoidable. Like teams are hunting Brunson and
Kat a lot, Like I want to be clear, that's

(42:57):
how teams are looking to attack the Knicks, but its
stands so much further to that because like my thing
is like the effort and energy piece I think will
improve in the long run, and that to me is
the gap between Cleveland. Like Cleveland's practicing being a championship team.
Say what you want about whether or not they actually are.
They're practicing being a championship team that is a dead
serious basketball team in their daily process. Nicks not so much.

(43:18):
That's definitely something that they can clean up there. There's
no doubt that like the that Cat and Jalen Brunson
are gonna get attacked a great amount over the course
of the rest of the season, but there's some self
inflicted damage there. And their three point defense metrics are
really bad. They're giving up a ton of volume on threes,
they're giving up high percentage. They're giving up a lot

(43:39):
of spot up opportunities. In general, they are not guarding
the three point line well. And like for all to
talk about cat as are improtector. Their paint defense has
been pretty solid. So like, what is your takeaway on
what's going wrong with the Knicks defense?

Speaker 1 (43:52):
So, yeah, so they have looked better recently. They have
won five out of six here, and it's largely due
to their offense. What I will say about their defense
is that I think that in part it could get
fixed a little bit with Mitchell Robinson coming back. So
like let's look at the positive here first and just say, hey,
a lot of what I'm going to say could get

(44:15):
solved with Mitch coming back. A big issue for me
personally is that Carl Towns is a bad drop coverage defender,
and early in the season they basically played only drop coverage.
Over the last like two weeks, I felt like I've
seen them experiment a little bit more with like having

(44:36):
him come out to the level a little bit higher.
They will occasionally, not regularly, but like at times like
I've seen them switch. You know, it could have just
been like a peel switch situation, but like it felt
like kind of an early peel switch to me, Like
I will hear out that they are adjusting and experimenting,
and that Tibbs is trying to find different answers. It

(44:57):
hasn't gone well, Like, let's be clear about that too,
it hasn't gone super great to this point, but I
do think that they have at least tried to solve
the problem. A Towns is a really really bad drop
covers defender. I think that he doesn't really understand his angles,
he doesn't really understand his depth. He often gets caught

(45:19):
in no man's land where the roller will get behind
him and he's not really actually contesting the guard, and
the guard is able to just get to a pull
up a little bit too easily or have that lob
over the top of them. The second piece of it
for me is you mentioned the perimeter defense. I actually
think mckail bridge has been quite poor to this point defensively.

(45:41):
In general, I think he has not been very good
this season offensively. The shot is obviously a whole other conversation, but.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Did you see how many times Jamal Murray left him
completely wide open just not paying attention he just was
missing every shot and then nuggets that could have been
a worse blowout.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
Teams are going to do that with them, They're going
to force him to shoot. Michael's a crazy worker, and
I hope that he comes available here and like comes
around and is able to shoot it. Like I've never
heard anything, but like Michael Bridge is like an awesome
human being. So like when I say what I'm about
to say, like I don't say this with joy right.

Speaker 3 (46:15):
Being so negative. Sam, He's been.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Really bad on defense. He has been the big issue
for me is that he has been incapable. When you
watched him get through screens when he was younger, he
like kind of used that length and like slithered around
them and like found different ways to get back into recovery.
Right now, he's getting caught on screens for that extra

(46:39):
split second. I feel like his hips aren't quite as
flexible as they used to be when he was a
little bit younger, and he's just getting caught trying to
get up over the top. He's a guy that has
super long limbs, super long arms, but also a really
high waist, so when he tries to get around screens,
he has to like really open up his hips and
then like open around and like get back around the screen.

(47:03):
And I think he's getting clipped on those a little
bit more often than what we've seen in the past
from him, and that's an issue for them right now.
If he's not an elite level perimeter defender, if he
is on it. If I'm being completely honest, I think
he's been a blow average perimeter defender this season. I
will hear out you know that he's been average or whatever,

(47:23):
but I haven't really seen that personally.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
Let's assume they're not getting they're not getting against bad teams.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
They're not.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
But like if you want to say he'll get to average,
I still think that's a problem for them because then
you have two. You know, you have og Anobi, who's
a great defender. You have Josh Hart, who's like an
above average defender who works his balls off and like
flies around the court. Right you have an average defender
in Mikale, and then you know Cat and Jalen are
just guys that teams will attack relentlessly. So if you

(47:55):
don't have that extra great defender with those two, to me,
it's a real problem. So the way that you phrased this.
Whenever we decided, hey, what are we going to do?
Are you higher or lower on these teams than you
were in the preseason in terms of them contending for
a title? My answer for the Knicks right now is

(48:16):
actually lower, and in part it's because of Bridges, and
I would really like to see him fix it, but
he's not playing well on either end right now. And
like that deal, when that deal got done, I was
literally live like doing a mock draft show with Price,
my podcast partner and A we were just like stunned
and befuddled when that deal happened. And then we got

(48:38):
the price, and I was like, man, I like McHale,
and I knew that the price was going to be big,
and I still thought that was too much to pay
for him.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Superstar prices. Man, they paid prices.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
They paid superstar price for a guy that is a
top you know, when he's at his best, right a
top forty player in the league in terms of like
impacting winning, top fifty player in the league, whatever it is.
And it was just too much, I thought. But you know,
at the end of the day, they're going to get
Mitchell back. We're going to see if that can really
solve some of the issues that they have defensively because

(49:12):
they can play him and drop and then you can
get Kat back to play the role that he was
in in Minnesota. It makes life a little bit easier,
I think for everybody, and that could really go a
long way towards solving their defense, and that could make
me in the end a little bit higher on them.
But given that Mitchell's injury situation seems a little bit

(49:33):
questionable in terms of when he'll be back, what he
will look like when he gets back, I am a
little bit lower on them than I was in the preseason.
I am.

Speaker 3 (49:41):
Yeah, it's interesting the cat.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
If Kat could just guard your kitchen, the post every
single possession, I think he'd be considered an all defense guy. Unfortunately,
there's a lot more to guarding NBA teams. I'd like
the idea of Mitchell Robinson just kind of like putting
them into a lot more natural positions on on a
lot of Like first of all, Mitch is like one
of my favorite bigs in the league at getting to

(50:04):
the level of screens and contesting pull up shooters. He
just has such a natural gift for at the timing
and he's got such quick.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
Leaping in long arms.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
And then I like Kat more as a low man
than I do as a ball screen defender. And then
the Josh Hart stuff, Like Josh Hart brings so much
good to the table, but like and there's no doubt that,
like from a spacing standpoint, there would be some complications
with Mitch. It gets It's not as simple as it
looks though, because one teams aren't guarding Josh Hart on
the perimeter. I have seen so many teams this year

(50:33):
put their center on Josh Hart for extended stretches and
just sag him into the paint anyway. And I think
that Mitch can bring back some of their offensive rebounding
identity in a lot of ways too. He's just always
been super super good at that. So, like with the Knicks,
I think Cleveland is a clear number two right now,
but I give them I wouldn't be surprised if I

(50:55):
felt differently in two three months, if they just kind
of figured some of that additional stuff out before we
get out of here. I want to spend about ten
to fifteen minutes on the middle tier in the Western Conference.
So this is a total shit show. Sacramento's lost four
in a row. They're now the twelve seed, but like
you just know that they're going to have a stretch
where they win eight out of nine games, and they've

(51:15):
been devastated by injuries, and it's been deer and Fox
just playing one on five every game. Even Portland scrappy
and difficult. Like, as much as we talk trash about
the Pelicans, they will get healthier at some point in
the season and rip off some wins at some point.
San Antonio is like it's the classic home road team,
Like if there they are just a huge pain in

(51:37):
the butt to beat in San Antonio, and that's just
something that's going to keep them afloating the standings all season. Dallas,
it's been the Lucas stuff and a lot of like
kind of early burying of Klay Thompson, even though it
has so much more to do with the fact that
his ceiling kind of depends on Luca creating advantages for him,
and so I'm not super concerned about playing the big picture.

(51:58):
But like every team as it is shoes Denver's like
atrociously bad. When Yokich is off the floor, the Suns
can't do anything without Kevin Durant. The Clippers are actually
like my one of my big success stories from the season.
I was like, the Clippers are going to be a
pain in the ass. I swear it's all these athletes.
They're big in athletic called the Perimeter Memphis, same sort
of thing with the home road splits. But like that,

(52:19):
that tier in the West that is beyond Oklahoma City
and Golden State is like ten teams deep, and I
have no idea what to make of it. Where do
you like, where are you feeling with that group? Do
you have them all still in one tier? Are there
a couple of teams that are separating themselves for you?
How do you feel about that tier in the West
right now?

Speaker 1 (52:36):
I mean, if you didn't mention the team that I
think I might like you most outside of Denver.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
No, the Lakers, Oh, come on, I'm a Lakers.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
You just don't like. You just don't like the transition
defense is the issue that'll get cleaned up. Like that
will figure itself out. We've already started to see science
and it's going to figure itself out. Look, I like
Denver more than the Lakers, to be clear, Like I
have Denver like.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
In the same year with the Lakers. But I do like.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Denver more than the Lakers, to be clear, I was
just surprised you didn't mention them. But with the Lakers particularly, Yeah,
Like with the Lakers particularly, they have this incredible offensive
scheme that is working really, really well in terms of
actualizing Anthony Davis. Honestly, I think a big thing that
it's doing that people aren't really noticing is minimizing the
wear and tear on Lebron throughout the regular season, and

(53:27):
that's going to make a big difference, I think potentially
come playoff time. They have Austin Reeves, who's been like
hot and cold, it feels like, to start the season.
They have Dalton connect To who looks like a real hit.
He's a guy that kind of elevates their starting lineup.
Like it's funny. They've moved him to the bench to
bring Ruby back into the starting lineup, and I think
that's a mistake because when I watch when I watch Dalton,

(53:48):
I think he's a guy that elevates your best players,
but probably isn't a guy yet that can go get
his own or you know, be at his best with
bench players. In the NBA, So if I was the Lakers,
I would have Dalton in the starting lineup in order
to maximize both his potential and the players around him. Offensively.

(54:10):
I get the defensive concerns, but the thing about the
Lakers is that when you look at all the other
teams in the West, Denver included certainly, and this is
removing Oklahoma City in my opinion, you look at, oh,
you know, like Sacramento, who I think just probably doesn't
have enough juice in terms of star power, and Minnesota,

(54:34):
who you know, obviously sold a lot of their assets
to go get Rudy Gobert, but you know, has some
new assets that they could potentially move if they wanted to.
You can look at the Clippers, who probably doesn't probably
don't have enough juice. Unles Kauai is just like a superstar.
Houston's interesting. Houston certainly has more trade capital than anybody
in the league if they want to use it. But

(54:57):
I think the Lakers have the most realistic stick avenues
toward improving their roster that doesn't involve, like, for instance,
Houston having to upend everything it does with a star trade. Right,
the Lakers can solve their issues. They have three first
round picks available to go out and get like a

(55:17):
Bruce Brown. They have a bunch of tradable contracts Ruey, Gabe, Vincent,
Jared Vanderbilt, like whoever you want to bring up across
the board. They have all these deals that they can
move for players right within their price range. Like if
they can go get Bruce Brown. To me, that's the
name that I've been thinking about. That just makes an
immense amount of sense. We knew that they liked him.

(55:37):
They tried to sign him before he signed that big
balloon contract with the Indiana Pacers and then got traded
to the Toronto Raptors in the Sea Yakham deal. If
I remember correctly right, he is the kind of player
that'd be perfect for them, like a perimeter defender who
processes the game at a super high level, can guard

(55:59):
one through four, perfect like crash bang player that would
take some wearing's hair off of you know, some of
their perimeter players and some of their wings, Like they
can go do that. Like Toronto is not contending this year,
they would be able to go get give up a
first round pick for Bruce Brown and it would be fine.

(56:19):
And on top of it, the sneaky thing with Bruce
Brown is that because his contract is so big right now,
he's not going to get that much on his next
contract exactly. You have the early bird rights to be
able to retain him as well. I think he's actually
like a really sneaky valuable player on this trade market.
That because he hasn't played much this season, if at all,
if I can remember correctly, I haven't seen him play

(56:40):
this year. At least, he's someone that he will be
a very valuable trade target as long as he's healthy
at some point in December January. Dorian Finney Smith is
the name that makes a lot of like sense for
the Lakers. I've said, like a Dorian Finney Smith, they
are on sharp deal for the Lakers solves like almost
all of their problems to me right now, backup center

(57:00):
issue solves. You know, going to get a wing who
can be switchable defensively. Phinney Smith has taken like a
small step back defensively, but not an enormous one. But
the guys that are on the market, they have the
ability to go make moves to solve their issues. Is
why I like them a lot, and they're already really good.

(57:21):
Is the thing, like the Lakers are already what eleven
and seven something like that, six, ten and six. Yeah,
so they're in a really good position as it is,
like Denver doesn't have the ability really to go out
and improve. They've moved all their picks. They would have
to give up like a Peyton Watson or a Christian
Brown or a Julian Strather to go make a realistic upgrade,

(57:43):
and that's not something they should really be in the
market of doing in my opinion. You can look at
I don't know Minnesota. Minnesota could go make a realistic upgrade,
but more than anything, their season is going to come
down to whether or not Anthony Edwards can make decisions
and consistently make plays at the end, and I don't
know if I trust that yet. They could also just
like move off of the Julius Randall experiment and decide

(58:05):
to do something totally different with that position, but that
up ends their season in some way, and that would
take some time to try and work through and figure out.
So when I say that I really like the Lakers,
I like the potential of what the Lakers can be
after February, once they eventually inevitably make their move. I

(58:25):
think that might be the team that I it's Denver
because they have the best player in the world, they
have Nicola Jokic. But outside of them in the West, like,
I think the Lakers are the team even honestly, I
like them more than Golden State in a playoff situation.
I know that might be like sacrilege to hear right now,
but I would buy them more in a playoff situation.

(58:46):
They have the star power and they have the wherewithal
to be able to go get go, do moves. Golden
State does as well. Though, by the way, like that's
the other thing that we, you know, have mentioned a
little bit. Golden State to me is a you knowd'
anthony Melton and Gary Payton in two first round pays
for Cam Johnson move from being ahead of you know,
all these teams potentially maybe not Denver because Denver is

(59:07):
still really good. But yeah, like that that middle tier,
like those three teams beyond Oklahoma City, Golden se Denver Lakers,
Denver Lakers, those feel like the three teams to me
that not only have the star power but also have
the potential to get better and separate themselves from the
rest of this group.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
Yeah, when I look at I think a lot of
times when we hear people talk about issues with the Lakers,
they conveniently gloss over the fact that every team in
that tier has major issues, you know, like like like
the Kings can't guard anybody.

Speaker 3 (59:40):
Minnesota.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
I literally hate that roster like it's it is like
the player that I'm highest on in the next like
generation of young basketball players.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
But I just hate that.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Team's construct so much, and I think it plays directly
into a lot of the issues that ant has had
over the years. Don't get me started, San Antonio. Ever
since I saw how good Stefan Castle has become, I'm
like all in on them for the future. Like Stefan
Castle has made me go from hating the Spurs core
to like loving the Spurs core, which is like kind

(01:00:12):
of been a funny transformation. I just think he I
think he's like the two way guard. I'll even say
I think Stefan Castle's are more interesting prospect than Denvin
to sell in my opinion at this point.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Because it's just and so but like not even a
question to me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Denver, their bench is atrocious and Jamal Murray is like
literally a shell of himself it's a real problem Phoenix.
The Nurkic problem is real, and like I just think
they're a little redundant in there in the way that
they attack on offense.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
But by the way, with them another team that can't
really solve their problems with the trade market, right they
have one first round pick and really the only functionality
that they have is like moving Grayson Allen for a
center or moving Nurkic, which I don't think anybody's gonna
take that contract. So I completely agree with you, Like
there are worlds where you could maybe try and figure

(01:00:59):
out how to make something like this function, But I
think they're going to really struggle to improve their roster,
even though I love what they have been so far
with Kevin Durant.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
And and that's where Phoenix to me is kind of
like I don't view them as a serious threat for
that exact reason that you're explaining. Like all of these teams,
whether it's Golden State, Lakers, Denver, I think is a
little bit trapped, as you said, like they're they have
the avenues with which to improve themselves. Houston, the offense

(01:01:30):
and the half quarter is just too bad. I as
good as they are as interesting they are. They're the
regular season wins drug or not this season. We've seen
that year in year out over the last the last
few years. Right Clippers obviously like it's it's a James
Harden and Norman Palall team. It's hard to take them
really seriously. I want to zero in on the Lake

(01:02:00):
for a second because I have a very complicated opinion
on them. But before I do that, I would say
that I think Golden State. I have Golden State above
the First of all, if Golden State played the Lakers
in a series tomorrow, I think Golden State would kick
their ass. I as much as I as much as
I like the firepower stuff with the Lakers, the mismatch

(01:02:21):
on the perimeter is so dramatic between those two teams,
I think it would be a disaster.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
So like and to your point that you've talked about
a lot, the transition defense would be an enormous issue
against Golden exactly. Oh, Mike, I agree with I agree
with you on this that Golden State tomorrow in a
seven game series would beat the Lakers.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
But like, I also agree with you that if you
start to talk about who can win four series between
those two teams, it gets a little more complicated because obviously,
like the Lakers are a bad matchup with Golden State,
but they are better matchup for other teams, right, So
like it gets complicated in that regard. But like I
think Golden State i'd put above the Lakers, Denver I'd
certainly put above the Lakers, because I actually do Jamal

(01:03:00):
is gonna get Like Jamal's not as bad as he's been,
He's going to be better, in my opinion. Maybe I'm
just being glass half full a little too much. You
have a little smirk on your face, so maybe you
feel otherwise.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
It's not that I think he's definitely not. It's just
that I don't know, Like when it goes for like
when it went for John Wall, it went, you know
what I mean, Like the injuries piled up and he
just couldn't separate from anybody anymore. And Jamal has the
shooting to fall back on. But sometimes for guys, it
just goes. And I really hope that's not the case
for Jamal. It's just that I don't I don't know

(01:03:33):
if it is, is what I'm worried about.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
To your point, he hit a couple of jumpers against
the knicks where it was a lot of wrist and
like snap of the of the top of the shot
where you can tell he was not getting a tonnel
energy in his shot from the bottom, And some of
these possessions where he's running around on the perimeter literally
looks like me when I'm like playing when I've played

(01:03:56):
seven or eight pickup games and I'm in the last
game of the day and I'm kind of limping around
the court. Like that's literally what what Jamal Murray looks
like in some of these health defense possessions, like like
where I'm just like, dude, this is an NBA game,
Like you can't be this like like hob hobbling around,
you know what I mean. But like, I think Denver
is a team that I put above them, and then
the other team I'd put above the Lakers still at

(01:04:18):
this point is Dallas. In Dallas I'm a little bit
lower on because I do think the trade off for
Derek Jones Junior did make them less athletic, But even
within that context, they do have more athletes than a
team like the Lakers does, so like and I do
think Luca will play better in the long run. So
like for me, I have the Lakers kind of sitting

(01:04:38):
as like the fifth best team in the West. Now
you look like you had a thought on Dallas, because
I'm about to go off on the Lakers, So why
don't you give me your thoughts on Dallas real quick?

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
No, honestly, I don't. I mean you know that you
know when we did contender rankings, like at the deadline
last year, I Dallas was your team five or whatever,
and like, I love that team and I think they're terrific,
So I guess I would put them ahead of the
Lake right now. They do have some flexibility, not a ton,

(01:05:05):
but like enough. I mean, the other weird team that
we haven't talked about before we get to the Lakers
is Memphis. Like Memphis is so weird and bizarre, and
we haven't seen them with like a full complement of
players yet exactly. I mean, I don't know if you
watched the Portland Memphis game last night and two nights
ago for when this goes live, Jamran had like twenty
two and eleven in twenty three minutes and was just

(01:05:28):
so far and away the best player on the court
that it was remarkable. And I know it's in Memphis,
whatever I can't remember for some reason. I think it
was in Portland, but like I'm bad at remembering if
it's home or road or not.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
But it was in Memphis. And every Jamaran game in
Memphis is like an event. He puts on a show
every single game.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
His speed, his explosiveness, you saw like the he is.
He and Trey Young to me are the two guards
in the NBA where I don't understand how they understand
angles when they make passes, Like both of them can
throw logrible passes left hand, right hand from crazy angles
from whatever position they're in on the court. Right. But

(01:06:14):
those two guys particularly, I just watch them, and Ja
throws these left handed whip cross court passes where I'm
just like, I'm not even sure how you saw that,
let alone how you executed that. Like Jokich can do
this stuff, there are wings that can do this stuff
as well. Like I'm not sitting here saying they're like
the best two passers in the NBA. Necessarily they're probably

(01:06:35):
in the top five, but like when I watch those two,
I'm just like, holy shit. And Jaw is also like
the most explosive athlete in the end. He is I say,
Memphis just to say that, like, if Jaw is this good,
and they get Desbane and they get Jaron Jackson playing
a full compliment of games, they have all of these

(01:06:55):
potential options that they can mix and match with against
you in certain situation and matchups. They're interesting to me.
They've been playing goofy ass like Santy al Dama, Jaren Jackson,
Zach Edy lineups that are like three seven footers basically,
and it's just really hard to score on them. And
they still have like perimeter play because of Sancy and Jaren.
So they're a weird team. But I also bring them

(01:07:19):
up to say that they have their full compliment of
picks to be able to move if they want to.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
Yeah, I need to see more of Memphis now that
Marcus Smartin Desmond Mayne are back. They're a team that
I'm gonna be zeroing in on in the next couple
of weeks because like, there's there's fun, Spunky, We're winning
games at home with you know, Scottie Pippen Junior and
Jay Huff and and all these kind of guys, and
then there's like, okay, let's get a good look at
like what you know, uh, joh Desmond Marcus Smart, They've

(01:07:44):
been starting Jalen Wells. It's interesting to me because I
actually liked the Smart Bane Jaw trio last year, but
then like the with Jared Jackson and Edie and then
also with Santi al Dama and Jared Jackson, is a smaller,
like kind of more spacing. Look, I need to just
see more of them. Their team that I their team
that I just don't have a really strong opinion about
at this point on.

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
The Lakers front.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
They are there's so many things that I really like
about this team. I do think JJ Reddick has done
a good job of at least bringing a more serious
approach on a daily basis. Yeah, I love some of
the concepts that he's brought in offensively in the sense
that last year they were very much like a Horns
team and like a lot of like you're kind of

(01:08:28):
like just stack and double drag and that sort of thing.
It was just a lot of like pretty standard horn
stack double drag across the board. JJ's brought in the
lebron and ad as a folkrum at the top of
the key for off ball guard action stuff, which has
been really really intriguing, and I've liked a lot of
that stuff you mentioned using.

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
Lebron by the way, they're getting there like in similar sets,
like they still run a lot of horns actions, they
still run a lot of double drag stuff. Yeah. I
think what has done is particularly weaponized his two best
players in a different way than what Darvin Ham did
and that's what makes him a much better coach.

Speaker 2 (01:09:10):
Frankly, and to your point, that's I think that's that
and then giving a lot more of the guard reps
to Austin has definitely played a part in d Low's
struggles to this point in the season. He's just been really,
really bad where it gets complicated for me and before
I even get there, I want I want to focus
in on the starting lineup for a second. Two like that,
I think that Dalton connect has to start too, because one,

(01:09:33):
he's just such a natural fit offensively, because he's an
off ball score.

Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
I think this is such a.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Valuable talent in the NBA, A guy that you can
like realistically expect fifteen to twenty five points on any
given night without really having to, Like, yeah, you'll drop
stuff for him when he gets hot to kind of
keep feeding the hot hand. But he can play within
the low of the game right and the second piece
of it. He's just a really good athlete, and this
is the team that does and have athleticism on the perimeter,

(01:10:01):
even though he has his defensive limitations. Just like him
going after a contested rebound, or him running his lane
in transition, or him high pointing some sort of loose
ball just looks different than it does for the other
Laker guards. Which is why I kind of lean more
towards the trade you presented to me on the phone
the other day, which is the Dorian Phinney Smith day.
Were on sharp type of move because, like I originally

(01:10:21):
was in the same spot where I was like Delo's
the weak link here. You gotta go get a Bruce Brown.
You gotta go get a you know, Derrek Jones junior
or something like that to anchor the two, and then
Ruy's your three. I am in the opposite spot now
where I think this needs to be an Austin Dalton
Lebron ad team and a traditional three and D guy
that you can put on the other team's best perimeter
player makes the most sense. That's where a Dorian Finney

(01:10:44):
Smith kind of falls into that spot for me. The
tricky part is is I don't like a ton of
the other options around the league. I think he's the
one guy that makes a lot of sense because like
I look at it and I'm like, I kind of
like Zire Williams too, But I just don't think he's
a starter. I don't think he shoots the ball well enough.
There's I like Josh Green as a guy that they
could potentially go after, but then again, he plays the
same position more or less as Dalton connect which kind

(01:11:05):
of presents some issues. So like they're a little bit
more limited in terms of the types of players that
can go there. Like does Jeremy Grant want to come
in and guard the other team's best player every game?
Probably not, right, So, like there are some limitations there,
But I do think Dalton at the two is the
direction they need to go in the long run. My
pessimism surrounding the Lakers entirely centers around the Perimmeter athleticism piece,

(01:11:27):
and I just don't know if it's something they can
fix within one season. They will defend better than they
have to be clear, their defense is in shambles right
now for a variety of different reasons, mostly centering around
transition and the offensive glass. They're actually like a decent
load up half court defense, Like they're okay in the
decent half court load up situations. It's rebounding, and it

(01:11:49):
is transition that is entirely perimeterive athletes. That's entirely perimeterive
athletes like Lebron and ad are two of the best
defensive rebounders of their generation, and they can't rebound like
it is a perimeter athlete issue. And so like I'm
with you in the sense that like if you told
me like we were gonna be watching Oka see Los
Angeles Lakers in the Western Conference Finals, I wouldn't be

(01:12:11):
stunned because I do think that that stealing is in there.
Anthony Davis is playing at a top five level this year.
Lebron isn't even at the level I think he will
be in the long run. Like there's a lot to
be excited about there. It's just like I've had I've
been Sam, I've been bitching about this perimeter athleticism thing
with the Lakers for two years now, and Rob just
hasn't done anything. So like we're where like it's hard
for me to eve. It's like Jared Vanderbilt really interesting player,

(01:12:35):
but like I haven't watched him play in a basketball
game in so long that it's like, is theoretical to
this point, he just.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
Doesn't get guarded either. That's the other thing, Like nobody
so and so.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
So I just am concerned. I'm just concerned that Rob
is thinking more like this team needs a third star,
and like, I just don't think Rob is actually aware
of the fact that the main weakness of this roster
is that they've got a bunch of skill player on
the perimeter that can't move or fight.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
It's it's funny that you say that you like the
Dorian Finney Smith move more now because I'm kind of
going the opposite way a little bit where I like
that one first originally, probably because it was like my
first thought and I was like anchored to it a
little bit. But the more I think about it, the
more I'm like, oh no, Like it's Bruce Brown's the
one that makes more sense because he's the better athlete,
he's the better defender on the perimeter. Like he's the

(01:13:24):
guy that you can trust to go deal with like
one s, twos and threes, like even with Denver right,
like part of like a big part of his role
was that he could play the four on offense, but
could guard perimeter players on defense. And that's kind of
what I think they need, Like they need somebody that
will like deal with you know, the fours and can
take on tough matchups or I can like just make

(01:13:45):
high level passing reads and can do different things like that.
But on offense, they want Dalton and you know, Austin
to be the one and the two kind of like
you said, on defense, having Bruce allows you to kind
of play him at the two, the you know one,
the three, whoever you have to shut down in terms
of the matchup. He's just kind of a better defender,
I think at this point than what Dorian Phinney Smith is.

(01:14:07):
But what Phinney Smith adds that he doesn't is he's
a fine defender at this point. Is he's longer, and
he is also a real shooter, which Bruce unfortunately is
not at this point. So I go back and forth
on it. I think I lean a little bit more
toward Bruce Brown now, but like it's a tricky it's
a tricky conversation for sure, and they have to make
the right decision because while I talk about their flexibility,

(01:14:30):
they really have like one move that they can make
without like totally selling the farm, you know what I mean.
If they don't make if they decide to like go
all out and you know, go get somebody, they're giving
up like three first rounders or whatever, and that doesn't
feel like a great plan to me either. So I
like what they can do. I like their flexibility. I
think they are one player away. Realistically, you can slide

(01:14:53):
D'Angelo Russell to the bench, You hopefully get Jared Vanderbilt
back to be able to play defense in stretches for
fifteen minutes the game. Right they can solve the backup
center issue, like you can find backup centers for second
round picks on the trade market. Uh, they're gonna have
to find They can find answers, though, I think is
why I like them, Like they can go They're not

(01:15:14):
a great team right now, they're not, but they can
find the answers.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
I think the Yeah, there, I'm with you in the
sense that, like, I think that that trait is such
a specifically valuable trait that even if you're great at
everything else, it can undercut a team.

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):
And there's it's just.

Speaker 2 (01:15:34):
I'm of the opinion that this needs to be a
kind of like a too pronged approach at the deadline,
which is like, they need to find a starter that
they can put at the two or the three, starting
caliber two way player, but they also I also think
they need to add some athletes for their bench.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
And here's the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
If Jared Vanderbilt gets back and he gets to form
and that works out, great, great.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
If Gabe Vince gets at least decent.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
At basketball at some point in the next couple of months,
that would be great. If Max Christie settles down a
little bit, then maybe that's fine. But it's just I
think it's more likely than not that they need a
couple of different moves, and I just am not sure
that I trust Rob to get it done. So in
a weird way, like if you asked me to rank
contenders like I still have, I had them coming into
the season, I think eight, and like, yeah, they're probably

(01:16:23):
still right around there, seven or eight, right, Like I'm
if I look out east, I'm looking at Boston and
Cleveland clearly as a level above maybe the Knicks too.
If I look out West, it's clearly okay. See Golden
State Denver in Dallas, so like they're somewhere around seven
or eight, but like here'd be them vaulting up.

Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
We talked about the Knicks, right, would you have the
Knicks of the Lakers right now?

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
Oh, man?

Speaker 1 (01:16:51):
Because the Knicks are a team that I think have
had ahead of them coming into the year.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
I I here's the thing I think the Lake Akers. Oh,
this is such a good question, Sam.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
And also neither of these teams right now can win
a title. But the Knicks are going to get back
Mitchell Robinson at some point, and the Lakers have moves
to be able to make to go get players like it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
I still take lebron Ady in a playoff series over
a brunts and bridges kind of brunts and bridges an
Andobe group. But like I that my basketball heart loves
the Knicks perimeter athletes. But then again, it just hasn't
manifested the way it needs to. So yeah, I think
I lean very, very slightly Lakers. But there's a part
of me that goes, that's stupid, Why would you say that?

(01:17:38):
So I don't that, man, you might have you might
have found the two teams that I'm most evenly opinionated
about that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
Yeah, because you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Told me, if you told me Lakers or Bucks right now,
I'd be like Lakers ten times out of ten. You know,
like if if you told me Lakers Suns right now,
I'd say Lakers ten times out of ten. But like
like the like the teams that are but yeah, the
Knicks to me are like East.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
Yeah, I would go.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
Utah was one of the worst losses of the season
that any NBA team has had.

Speaker 1 (01:18:06):
That is accurate.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Yeah, accurate, Sam, This show is exactly what I hoped
it would be. I had kind of like a loose format.
We ended up just completely ditching it and it was
like you and I just talking hoops on the phone
for some time. It was everything I hoped it would be.
I sincerely appreciate you giving us your time. Can you
tell our audience everything you've been working on as of Blake.

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):
Go to the Athletic Keep Me Employed over there. Go
to the Game Theory podcast with Sam Fassini over on YouTube,
over on Spotify, whatever podcast platform you listen to shows on.
I've been doing things where I kind of steal Jason's
thunder a little bit and go live after games and
talk to some things that happen. We're calling it post

(01:18:44):
game theory or game theory after dark. We don't really
have a name for it. We just kind of talk
about basketball.

Speaker 3 (01:18:48):
I like post game theory.

Speaker 1 (01:18:50):
I do too. I'm still trying to make make some
different thoughts about it at this point and change minds
within the fan base, because the fan base, it feels like,
is sway in another way. Yeah, no, go over there,
listen to the show, watch me breakdown tape by breakdown tape,
you know, two or three times a night, or two

(01:19:10):
or three times a week on games that happen over
the course of the previous couple of days. So go
there and come hang out.

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
I talked to a lot of people about basketball on
a daily basis, and whenever I have a basketball idea
or something that I need to run by someone, Sam
is the first person that I reach out to. He's
a basketball mind that I respect a great deal. You
guys need to get over to the Athletic and to
the Game Theory podcast and support him. And I'm sure
we'll be having you back on somewhere right around the
All Star break to get into some stuff. And I

(01:19:38):
owe you a show. So you got to let me
know if you have some stuff that you want to
talk about. But as always, we sincerely appreciate you guys
for supporting us and for supporting the show. We will
be back after Thanksgiving break. I was about to say
tonight after Lakers Suns, but you guys are seeing this
till Wednesday, so I will see you guys after Thanksgiving
break for some power rankings on Monday.

Speaker 3 (01:19:58):
The volume What's up guys.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting
Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us
if you guys would take a second and leave a
rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys
supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it.

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Hoops Tonight - NBA Contenders: Will Warriors stay hot? LeBron & Lakers obstacle, who stops Celtics

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Host

Jason Timpf

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Hoops Tonight - NBA Contenders: Will Warriors stay hot? LeBron & Lakers obstacle, who stops Celtics