June 24, 2025 • 24 mins
Jason reacts to all angles of the trade between the Celtics and Trail Blazers sending Jrue Holiday to Portland and Anfernee Simons to Boston.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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(01:46):
All right, we'll go to hoop tonight here at the
volume heavy Tuesday. Everybody hobal if you guys are having
a great week. Well, we got another NBA trade last
night as the Boston Celtics made their first big shakeup
of this summer, sending Drew Holiday to the Portland Trailblazers
for an exciting young lead guard and Anferny Simons as
well as two second round picks. We're gonna be breaking
(02:07):
that trade down from the perspective of both teams. Then
Jackson's gonna come on the show. He's a big Celtics fan.
And he's gonna give his take. We'll go back and
forth about it for a little bit and then we'll
get out of here. You guys are the joke before
we get started. Subscribed to the Hoops and I YouTube channels.
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Speaker 3 (02:25):
On Hoops Tonight.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and
a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on
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Make sure you guys follow us there. In the last
but not least, keep dropping mail back questions in the
YouTube comments and we'll keep getting to them throughout the
remainder of the year. All right, let's talk some basketball.
So in the deal, the Portland Trailblazers get Drew Holliday
and the Boston Celtics get Anferny Simons as well as
(02:49):
two second round picks. So Boston turns an older veteran
role player into a younger lead guard. We all know
who Drew Holliday is and what he's capable of and
in the context of the current iteration of the Celtics,
when fully healthy, he brings a ton of value and utility.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
But the second that Jason Tatum went down the way
that he did, it officially made all the sense in
the world to look to move Drew Holliday for something
more useful in the long run. My initial gut reaction
when I saw the trade was wow, like, this is
gonna be fun. This instantly makes the Boston Celtics next
year interesting in a way that they wouldn't have been
(03:34):
if they would have made moves more in line with
bringing in draft compensation or more theoretical talent. This is
more of like a in one year, we're going to
find out really quickly how well Anfernie Simon's Because Anthrony's
right at the beginning of what you would consider to
be the prime of his career in his mid twenties, right,
You're gonna get to see really quickly how well he
(03:56):
fits in the Boston system, in the Joe Mizula driving
kickses them. It's a perfect test of a theory we
haven't seen a lead guard in this system. That's not
to say that Drew or Derek couldn't play with the
ball in their hands. Derek White obviously ran a ton
of action with Jayson Tatum as an excellent pull up
(04:16):
three point shooter, a very good passer out of ball screens,
but he doesn't really bring like all of the wiggle
and downhill force that you get from an Anfernie Simons. Right,
jew Holliday plays with a lot of power, does bring
some downhill force, certainly can hit higher difficulty shots in
ball screens and things like that, but he doesn't have
(04:37):
the level of just wiggle and pull up shooting and
stuff that Anthony Simons has. Anfernie brings a combination of
downhill burst, shifty ball handling, and pull up shooting that
neither of those guys had. So before we get to
any of the specifics of Anfernie's game, I'm just excited
to see this tweak in Joe Mizula's driving kick system,
(05:00):
and he brings a very different style even than what
Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum did. So in a year
where Tatum is unavailable, where the Celtics don't have championship expectations,
they can evaluate what it looks like to see this
type of guard play in their system of matchup hunting,
(05:21):
drive and kick basketball, modern four out spacing, big spacing
above the break. All of those specific characteristics immediately makes
the Celtics a very interesting watch next year. So a
quick description of Anferny's game for those of you guys
who haven't watched much of him over the years. He
obviously spent the entire beginning of his career alongside Damian Lillard.
(05:44):
This is something that stood out to me throughout watching
a young Anthony in Portland. He plays esthetically a very
similar style to Dame. He's a bigger, more upright player.
He doesn't have the level the overall level of first
step quickness and athleticism that Dame had, but you can
tell that they did a lot of workouts together. You
can tell that Anthny idolized Dame, and by the way,
(06:07):
he picked a great player to idolize. He's got a
very quick and compact jump shot release that he can
get to out of all of the same kind of
footwork stuff that Dame uses, like hard pound dribble in
and out to the right, step backs, going to the left,
step backs, going both directions.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
The mid range pull ups.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
He's got all of the same kind of like footwork
and off the dribble jump shooting combinations that Damian Lillard had.
Again not to the same level of efficiency, but at
least in terms of the aesthetics and the way that
he gets to his shots very similar out of hesitation dribbles,
out of dribble combinations from three and from the mid range.
It's like watching a taller dame. It's legitimately crazy how
(06:47):
similar their jump shot form and some of their body
movements are. He has all of the shot making you
need and pick and roll, pull up twos, pull up threes, floaters,
he can get to the rim, he can make basic
passing reads in pick and roll. He's not some surgical
playmaker by any strike the imagination, but he can make
the reads that you need to run an NBA offense.
His weakness, and this is in all likelihood why Portland
(07:09):
is moving on from him, is that he isn't particularly
great at any of those specific things within the lead
guard archetype. Like he's a good three point shooter off
the catch, but he's not a great three point shooter
off the catch. He's a decent pull up shooter forty
seven percent on pull up twos last year thirty five
percent on pull threes. It's also worth mentioning he did
(07:30):
go down year over year as a shooter, but the
previous year he spent the majority of the year playing
alongside Damian Lillard catching lesser primitive defenders, So I do
think that those two things are related in a lot
of ways. But again, he's a good pull up shooter.
He actually got up over a point per shot, but
he's not like some deadly efficient pull up shooter like
you see at the top guys in the league. Right
(07:50):
He's okay on floaters, he's forty percent, but that's not
the super high level floater shooter that you see around
the league, guys like Tydrome, Tyree s Haliburton that are
shooting over fifty on floaters. He's a decent driver of
the basketball. He's particularly good at beating slower footed bigs
and switches, which I think will be uniquely valuable in
Boston's system. But he's not an elite driver of the
(08:13):
basketball that like shreds defenses. He logs about nine drives
per game. For perspective, Shay Gilges, Alexander twenty one, Brunson eighteen,
Trey Young seventeen. He's just not a great driver of
the basketball the way that those guys are. He's a
decent passer at a pick and roll in ISO, but
he's not a super high level playmaker. And then he's
(08:35):
got a couple of areas where he's kind of weak. Right,
He's very poor finisher at the rim, just fifty four
percent overall, just fifty two percent on layups. He does
have a little bit more vertical pop than you'd probably think,
and he'll occasionally get up and throw one down, but
that's not rim finishing is not a strength of his,
and he is not a good defensive player, although he
did average a career high and steels last year. The
(08:56):
Portland Trailblazers towards the tail end of the season took
on more of a defensive identity, you know, behind guys
like Tamani Kamara, Robert Williams, Matist Thaibel and by the way,
Drew Holliday's going to be very interesting in that regard
if they do decide to keep him. But and Anthrony
did force more turnovers within that context, but that's not
exactly what you would consider to be a.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Strength for him.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
The reason why I like this move for Boston has
to do with their culture, has to do with the
brand of basketball that they're playing Anferny's flaws, all those
things that I just went over are what made him
inexpensive to get in a trade. He's doing extension soon. Obviously,
whether or not that extension meets a certain threshold is
(09:38):
going to be a big part of whether or not
this makes sense for Boston. But they could also turn
around and flip him. If he goes in there this
year and you know, you set him up properly and
in the Boston system and it just continues to be underwhelming,
they can turn around and flip him. They can turn
around and move him in a different direction. And so
obviously there's a forward thinking element to this in terms
of asset management. What they do they retain him, if
(10:01):
they do, what do they retain him on? In terms
of an extension, if they move him, what do they
get in return? That is going to be the kind
of like swing factor in this deal. But you know
that's on Brad Stevens to figure out. In the short term,
you gave yourself an opportunity to see what Anthony Zimons
looks like in this system. Boston is one of the
best teams in the league at creating space for drivers
of the basketball. Some of the little things that they
(10:23):
do in terms of like spacing bigs above the break
to create a different sort of help defense situation. So
instead of there being a big waiting at the rim,
the big is out dealing with you know, Porzingis or
Horford above the break, and now you have a small guard,
someone like it Derek White, someone like a Peyton Pritchard,
someone like a Sam Hauser, sometimes drifting into the dunker spot,
(10:45):
so that the help defender the guy guarding that guy
as a smaller player that's contesting at the rim. They
move without the ball, they're constantly cycling through. There's a
lot of things that Boston does to create really open
areas on the floor. Four guys like anfernit to go
to work. Now, obviously it remains to be seen whether
or not some of those guys get moved, So like
(11:05):
if you know, they don't bring Horford back and then
they trade Porzingis, then yeah, it's going to potentially have
an impact on their spacing. But even in that context,
dating back to twenty twenty two when they were playing
some of these non shooting bigs like Robert Williams. They
are capable of generating space and I think that that's
a very interesting spot for Anferni to be in. He's
also going to be surround with more like dribbles shoot
(11:28):
pass talent than he was surrounded by in Portland. He's
going to be in lineups where Jalen Brown's on the floor,
where Derek White's on the floor, where Houser's on the floor,
where Pritchard's on the floor, or Baylor Shireman's on the floor.
He's going to be in situations where he is getting
the ball in advantages and he's creating advantages for his
teammates in that drive and kick system. It's an awesome
opportunity for us to see just a different guy now,
(11:51):
like we talked about, because their guards weren't this type
of guard, and because Tatum and Brown are these big
matchup attacking forwards that, as we've talked about over the years,
can sometimes settle forts and struggle to beat their man
at the point of attack. I'm interested to see if
this Boston offense is a bit more resilient, with more
of a lead guard that they can go to to
get dribble penetration to start the engine when things get
(12:14):
kind of stagnant. Anthony gets up into that high hesitation
dribble and he will pressure those gaps and he will
get into the teeth of the defense. And so there
is a different look there that I think will be
really interesting. I like the move. It makes Boston a
more interesting watch this year. It's kind of like an
opportunity to get a different look at the Celtics offense
(12:36):
with a different archetype of player. And then one of
two things will happen. Either Brad Stevens will move him
for asset return to help Tatum and Brown when Tatum
gets back from his injury, or it'll be like, oh shit,
this works. Now, let's talk about what we're gonna look
like in the future in a system that involves both
Anthony Simon's and Jason Tatum and potentially Jalen Brown as well.
(12:58):
It is an awesome opportunity to run an experiment and
see what this player looks like in the most advanced
driving kick system that we have in the NBA right now.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I'm very, very excited to watch.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
It on the Portland front, I would assume this is
about opening up some ball handling responsibility, about opening up
a starting spot. Scoot Henderson has done a lot of
coming off the bench since he's been drafted. This is
a situation that should open up more lead ball handling
responsibility for him, more ball handling opportunities for guys like
Denny Avdio showed some off the dribble pop towards the
(13:31):
tail end of the season. I'm just wondering whether or
not they have any plans to actually use Drew Holliday
in the short term, or if they intend to flip it.
I feel like Drew is most valuable on a roster
that is championship capable, where he can push a team
over the top, and that's not really what Portland is.
But there is kind of this growing feisty defensive attitude
that Portland took on towards the second half of the
(13:52):
season or so as they started to rack up a
few more impressive wins than usual, a couple of those
like two week streaks where we're like, oh man, some
people this is interesting, right, Like Timani Kamara coming around
as one of the better young wing defenders in the league.
Robert Williams when he's healthy, is still a very really
impactful switching big and rim protecting big matist. Steibel has
been one of the better defensive wings in the league
(14:14):
for a long time. Drew Hollidays should fit into that
context extremely well in terms of helping them. It just
doesn't help them get to what their ultimate goals are.
And so that's why, you know, I kind of would
have preferred to see Drew go to more of a
contending team, but it'll be an interesting kind of influx
of defensive culture for that roster. All Right, Jackson, So
(14:35):
you've had about a little over twelve hours to think
about this deal. As a Celtics fan, where are you
at with Anthony Simon's becoming a Celtic?
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
I mean, I think it's a really fun flyer. There's
they haven't had a player like this in a while.
It We'll see what else they do this summer. You know,
I don't think this is the last MOVI for the
Celtics this summer, but it certainly is a fun bridge
option where if it really hits in a way that
(15:08):
maybe even higher than I'm expecting, then all of a
sudden in an East with all these injuries, like maybe
the Celtics are actually way more competitive than we may
have thought after the Tatum injury, and if it doesn't hit,
then it's like, Okay, that's kind of what we were expecting. Anyways,
It's sort of this sort of middle to middle down
year for Boston. The contract situation is has some upsides
(15:29):
and has some downsides. I mean, the fact that it's
expiring makes definitely an a tradable piece potentially at the
deadline if he's playing well and the Celtics don't want
to be competitive or don't want to be as competitive.
If he really plays well, though, I would be curious
what number they're comfortable ex sending him at, you know, like,
(15:49):
if it really hits, which there's they're gonna need offense,
and so it's certainly possible that he averages twenty four
points a game or something like that. I think that's
definitely within the realm of possibility. And if that happens,
I'm not sure what number you're comfortable signing him at,
considering he's not a plus defensive player and Missoula Ball.
(16:10):
While it's sort of most people think about it offensively
and it is. It's also a lot of we want
all of our players to be two way players, you
know what I mean. So that's the one one of
the question marks I think, but overall just zooming out.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I really like it for Boston.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I think it's a little weird for Portland, but you know,
they want to be a great defensive team and this
is going to help with that.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
So I get that, Yeah, the big key is going
to be just how good he is right away?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Like this is this a oh an underutilized lead guard
playing in clunky spacing on a defensive mind, it's set
a role player, a core for a you know, kind
of an inexperienced, relatively new head coach that hasn't had
any success yet in the NBA Like this is that
what's going on here? Or is Infnymonds just not that
(17:01):
level of guard? And we are going to find out.
I can I feel like in that Eastern Conference, which
is pretty open and alongside that group, like again, like
they're gonna make some moves this year, but like you
can count on Cornette being there, you can count on
Jaln Brown being there, most likely Pet Peyton, Pritchard, Sam
Houser Derek White, Like there's they're gonna be still a
(17:24):
good core of Celtics role players around him in a
system where these dudes have been playing this style for
a long time. And like, to me, I think the
indicator will be like the scoring plus the efficiency, Like
if they're if they're sitting at the All Star break
and he's at like sixty two percent true shooting because
(17:44):
he's been hitting forty percent of his pull up threes,
and like his drives have gone up from nine to
like thirteen per game because they're just creating more space
and all of a sudden, like it's just coming together
in a way that that is where I think you
start to look at it like, oh, we are actualizing
this player, and now he makes sense in this context.
(18:06):
And I think, honestly, to your point about the East
being open, that might literally be the best case scenario
if you could get like two playoff rounds out of
Anferny and kind of see him in that setting in
that context, I think that could be super interesting.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, I mean, I think the.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
He's immediately the second most skilled offensive player on the roster.
I mean, I like Derek White a lot, but he's
his overall value is in part because he's a two
way player. I think Anthonie Simons is immediately the second
best offensive player and and that's a little strange, Like
it's it's a unique context to go into a team
(18:45):
that was so it felt like perfectly built, and now
you have to just reach fool obviously after the Tatum injury.
But I think this is as good of a pivot
as you could make consider in the short term. It's
it's not what I was expecting to Drew Holliday deal.
I'm going to say that I was expecting a Dallas
Mavericks get a first round, hopefully get it. Like there
was some mixed reporting whether that it was going to
be the Celtish need to give up assets to get
(19:08):
off of that contract, or is the value good enough
we can get assets back. It was sort of mixed
reporting in that sense. I wasn't really sure what his
value was, and I was definitely not expecting a young
player in return. I was expecting picks really or a
young player, like a young player who's you know, developed
enough at this point. Maybe it would have been a
young flyer or something. But I think it's fun and
(19:30):
I think that you could talk yourself into a lot
of different outcomes considering how unstable the Weak feel the
East unstable the East fields Right.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Now, the usage piece is the interesting part. Like to
your point, I thought that we would see a couple
of different types of moves from Boston this year in
terms of bringing in younger role player talent, draft compensation,
things that would allow Brad to effectively pivot around Tatum
and Brown next year. That's that's what I was expecting too,
(20:01):
And like, it's just that that's what I met when
I said, like, oh, Boston became so much more interesting.
Anferny can come in and be high usage. Like I'm
not now whether or not it ends up being consistent
will be the key, but like you will have games
next year where Anferny drops thirty five and lights the
lights the TV garden on fire, and everyone's like, oh
(20:23):
my gosh, look at that. Like he will have awesome,
high scoring, massive games, like he had that famous game
winner driving pass Russell Westbrook this year against Denver. Like
he is a guy that has real upside. It's hasn't
come to fruition over the course of his career. But
I kind of like this like Bill Simmons used to
(20:44):
talk about this on his show all the time, and
it's kind of an interesting concept.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
It's likely lottery flyers.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
So like people who were picked in the lottery that
struggled in their first destination. That maybe you just think, oh,
we get him into a new kind of setting, and
this is a guy with some real I agree with,
some real talent, maybe we can get it out of him.
This is kind of like a different version of that.
It's more like in that after that second contract where
it's like he's much more established. But it's a similar
(21:09):
idea where it's like we've only seen this guy in
one construct. It's generally been a losing construct the entire
time he's been there. We've seen him on super offensive
minded rosters where he's put up big numbers but they
can't win. Now we've seen him on defensive minded rosters
or his efficiency tanks, but like they were you know,
over five hundred there for a big chunk of the season.
So like it's it's kind of it's just an experiment.
(21:32):
It's an experiment. And like in terms of the the
compensation piece to your point, like Drew Holliday was going
to get you something he wasn't going to get you
a haul, you know, you weren't gonna get three firsts,
or like a really really good, interesting young player. Like
to turn Drew Holiday, an expensive, older veteran player, into
a mid twenties dude that you can decide what you
(21:55):
want to do with next to me, is like a
really smart pivot that makes you more interesting. And it's
like a legitimate opportunity to like experiment for Boston's future,
because again, they were going to need to pivot. They
weren't going to be able to just bring everybody back
next year. Horford would have been too old, Porzingis would
have been too old, Drew Holiday would have been too old.
You've got to start experimenting with this right now.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
So I think in that context it definitely makes sense.
And also being able to get not that I'm banging
the drum for the value of second round picks or anything,
but Portland is trying to be competitive. The West is loaded.
I would frankly be surprised if they even made the plan.
Maybe they sneak into a nine or ten spot so
if they missed the playoffs, that that second round pick
(22:38):
could be picked thirty eight or something, which is not,
you know, crazy valuable, but you get two of them
from Portland which are decent dart throws or decent little
asset you know, fillers.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
You can throw in some other deals.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
So overall, I think value wise, I'm happy with it.
I think it's a real it's a way to make
the team a lot more. I was really kind of
expecting a complete sort of dump of a year, like
a of a year, and it's definitely not going to
be that. With a move like this, You're not you're
certainly not saying we're punting on the season. You're trying
to like, let's try it, Let's see if we can
be fun and competitive, especially in a down East.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
And Jalen Brown is going to be attacking this offseason,
preparing for his first full season as a lead ball handler.
You know, Jalen Brown is going to come in in
great shape. He's going to dictate most likely the best
perimeter defender on most nights, which will help put Inferny
back into a situation like he was in with Dame.
There's a lot of like inverted stuff he can do
with Jalen. I'm just excited I'm excited for open like
(23:32):
the opening week, and like seeing what the Celtics team
looks like.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
And I just didn't think that was going to be
the case.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
When Tatum went down to to heat the way that
he did, It'll be really weird.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I still have no idea, you know, they got a
lot of moves to make. I think what the front
court is going to look like, No idea what the
front court is going to look like. But Drew, Sorry,
Derek White, Anthony Simon's and Jalen Brown is a very
fun sort of trio going into going into the next season.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
I think from a back closing stand, totally agree, totally agree.
All right, guys, that's all we have today.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for suporting us
and supporting the show. If you didn't see it, we
did drop like an hour and a half of draft
content with Sam Vassini this morning. You guys can find
that a little bit further back on our feeds. We
will be back tomorrow night live during the NBA Draft.
We'll have some information on Twitter today about exactly when
we're doing that. I'll keep you guys posted, but it's
going to be basically right after the lottery, we'll do
(24:21):
our draft reaction, and then we're also going to have
some mailbag stuff later in the week. It's going to
be a fun week content. We appreciate you guys for
supporting us. We will see you tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
What's up guys.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting
OOPS tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us
if you guys would take a second and leave a
rating and a review.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
As always, I appreciate you guys.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
The volume
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
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(01:46):
All right, we'll go to hoop tonight here at the
volume heavy Tuesday. Everybody hobal if you guys are having
a great week. Well, we got another NBA trade last
night as the Boston Celtics made their first big shakeup
of this summer, sending Drew Holiday to the Portland Trailblazers
for an exciting young lead guard and Anferny Simons as
well as two second round picks. We're gonna be breaking
(02:07):
that trade down from the perspective of both teams. Then
Jackson's gonna come on the show. He's a big Celtics fan.
And he's gonna give his take. We'll go back and
forth about it for a little bit and then we'll
get out of here. You guys are the joke before
we get started. Subscribed to the Hoops and I YouTube channels.
You don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me
on Twitter or underscore jcnlts you guy, don't miss announcement.
St't forget about our podcast feed where we get your podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
On Hoops Tonight.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and
a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on
our social media feeds on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok.
Make sure you guys follow us there. In the last
but not least, keep dropping mail back questions in the
YouTube comments and we'll keep getting to them throughout the
remainder of the year. All right, let's talk some basketball.
So in the deal, the Portland Trailblazers get Drew Holliday
and the Boston Celtics get Anferny Simons as well as
(02:49):
two second round picks. So Boston turns an older veteran
role player into a younger lead guard. We all know
who Drew Holliday is and what he's capable of and
in the context of the current iteration of the Celtics,
when fully healthy, he brings a ton of value and utility.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
But the second that Jason Tatum went down the way
that he did, it officially made all the sense in
the world to look to move Drew Holliday for something
more useful in the long run. My initial gut reaction
when I saw the trade was wow, like, this is
gonna be fun. This instantly makes the Boston Celtics next
year interesting in a way that they wouldn't have been
(03:34):
if they would have made moves more in line with
bringing in draft compensation or more theoretical talent. This is
more of like a in one year, we're going to
find out really quickly how well Anfernie Simon's Because Anthrony's
right at the beginning of what you would consider to
be the prime of his career in his mid twenties, right,
You're gonna get to see really quickly how well he
(03:56):
fits in the Boston system, in the Joe Mizula driving
kickses them. It's a perfect test of a theory we
haven't seen a lead guard in this system. That's not
to say that Drew or Derek couldn't play with the
ball in their hands. Derek White obviously ran a ton
of action with Jayson Tatum as an excellent pull up
(04:16):
three point shooter, a very good passer out of ball screens,
but he doesn't really bring like all of the wiggle
and downhill force that you get from an Anfernie Simons. Right,
jew Holliday plays with a lot of power, does bring
some downhill force, certainly can hit higher difficulty shots in
ball screens and things like that, but he doesn't have
(04:37):
the level of just wiggle and pull up shooting and
stuff that Anthony Simons has. Anfernie brings a combination of
downhill burst, shifty ball handling, and pull up shooting that
neither of those guys had. So before we get to
any of the specifics of Anfernie's game, I'm just excited
to see this tweak in Joe Mizula's driving kick system,
(05:00):
and he brings a very different style even than what
Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum did. So in a year
where Tatum is unavailable, where the Celtics don't have championship expectations,
they can evaluate what it looks like to see this
type of guard play in their system of matchup hunting,
(05:21):
drive and kick basketball, modern four out spacing, big spacing
above the break. All of those specific characteristics immediately makes
the Celtics a very interesting watch next year. So a
quick description of Anferny's game for those of you guys
who haven't watched much of him over the years. He
obviously spent the entire beginning of his career alongside Damian Lillard.
(05:44):
This is something that stood out to me throughout watching
a young Anthony in Portland. He plays esthetically a very
similar style to Dame. He's a bigger, more upright player.
He doesn't have the level the overall level of first
step quickness and athleticism that Dame had, but you can
tell that they did a lot of workouts together. You
can tell that Anthny idolized Dame, and by the way,
(06:07):
he picked a great player to idolize. He's got a
very quick and compact jump shot release that he can
get to out of all of the same kind of
footwork stuff that Dame uses, like hard pound dribble in
and out to the right, step backs, going to the left,
step backs, going both directions.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
The mid range pull ups.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
He's got all of the same kind of like footwork
and off the dribble jump shooting combinations that Damian Lillard had.
Again not to the same level of efficiency, but at
least in terms of the aesthetics and the way that
he gets to his shots very similar out of hesitation dribbles,
out of dribble combinations from three and from the mid range.
It's like watching a taller dame. It's legitimately crazy how
(06:47):
similar their jump shot form and some of their body
movements are. He has all of the shot making you
need and pick and roll, pull up twos, pull up threes, floaters,
he can get to the rim, he can make basic
passing reads in pick and roll. He's not some surgical
playmaker by any strike the imagination, but he can make
the reads that you need to run an NBA offense.
His weakness, and this is in all likelihood why Portland
(07:09):
is moving on from him, is that he isn't particularly
great at any of those specific things within the lead
guard archetype. Like he's a good three point shooter off
the catch, but he's not a great three point shooter
off the catch. He's a decent pull up shooter forty
seven percent on pull up twos last year thirty five
percent on pull threes. It's also worth mentioning he did
(07:30):
go down year over year as a shooter, but the
previous year he spent the majority of the year playing
alongside Damian Lillard catching lesser primitive defenders, So I do
think that those two things are related in a lot
of ways. But again, he's a good pull up shooter.
He actually got up over a point per shot, but
he's not like some deadly efficient pull up shooter like
you see at the top guys in the league. Right
(07:50):
He's okay on floaters, he's forty percent, but that's not
the super high level floater shooter that you see around
the league, guys like Tydrome, Tyree s Haliburton that are
shooting over fifty on floaters. He's a decent driver of
the basketball. He's particularly good at beating slower footed bigs
and switches, which I think will be uniquely valuable in
Boston's system. But he's not an elite driver of the
(08:13):
basketball that like shreds defenses. He logs about nine drives
per game. For perspective, Shay Gilges, Alexander twenty one, Brunson eighteen,
Trey Young seventeen. He's just not a great driver of
the basketball the way that those guys are. He's a
decent passer at a pick and roll in ISO, but
he's not a super high level playmaker. And then he's
(08:35):
got a couple of areas where he's kind of weak. Right,
He's very poor finisher at the rim, just fifty four
percent overall, just fifty two percent on layups. He does
have a little bit more vertical pop than you'd probably think,
and he'll occasionally get up and throw one down, but
that's not rim finishing is not a strength of his,
and he is not a good defensive player, although he
did average a career high and steels last year. The
(08:56):
Portland Trailblazers towards the tail end of the season took
on more of a defensive identity, you know, behind guys
like Tamani Kamara, Robert Williams, Matist Thaibel and by the way,
Drew Holliday's going to be very interesting in that regard
if they do decide to keep him. But and Anthrony
did force more turnovers within that context, but that's not
exactly what you would consider to be a.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Strength for him.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
The reason why I like this move for Boston has
to do with their culture, has to do with the
brand of basketball that they're playing Anferny's flaws, all those
things that I just went over are what made him
inexpensive to get in a trade. He's doing extension soon. Obviously,
whether or not that extension meets a certain threshold is
(09:38):
going to be a big part of whether or not
this makes sense for Boston. But they could also turn
around and flip him. If he goes in there this
year and you know, you set him up properly and
in the Boston system and it just continues to be underwhelming,
they can turn around and flip him. They can turn
around and move him in a different direction. And so
obviously there's a forward thinking element to this in terms
of asset management. What they do they retain him, if
(10:01):
they do, what do they retain him on? In terms
of an extension, if they move him, what do they
get in return? That is going to be the kind
of like swing factor in this deal. But you know
that's on Brad Stevens to figure out. In the short term,
you gave yourself an opportunity to see what Anthony Zimons
looks like in this system. Boston is one of the
best teams in the league at creating space for drivers
of the basketball. Some of the little things that they
(10:23):
do in terms of like spacing bigs above the break
to create a different sort of help defense situation. So
instead of there being a big waiting at the rim,
the big is out dealing with you know, Porzingis or
Horford above the break, and now you have a small guard,
someone like it Derek White, someone like a Peyton Pritchard,
someone like a Sam Hauser, sometimes drifting into the dunker spot,
(10:45):
so that the help defender the guy guarding that guy
as a smaller player that's contesting at the rim. They
move without the ball, they're constantly cycling through. There's a
lot of things that Boston does to create really open
areas on the floor. Four guys like anfernit to go
to work. Now, obviously it remains to be seen whether
or not some of those guys get moved, So like
(11:05):
if you know, they don't bring Horford back and then
they trade Porzingis, then yeah, it's going to potentially have
an impact on their spacing. But even in that context,
dating back to twenty twenty two when they were playing
some of these non shooting bigs like Robert Williams. They
are capable of generating space and I think that that's
a very interesting spot for Anferni to be in. He's
also going to be surround with more like dribbles shoot
(11:28):
pass talent than he was surrounded by in Portland. He's
going to be in lineups where Jalen Brown's on the floor,
where Derek White's on the floor, where Houser's on the floor,
where Pritchard's on the floor, or Baylor Shireman's on the floor.
He's going to be in situations where he is getting
the ball in advantages and he's creating advantages for his
teammates in that drive and kick system. It's an awesome
opportunity for us to see just a different guy now,
(11:51):
like we talked about, because their guards weren't this type
of guard, and because Tatum and Brown are these big
matchup attacking forwards that, as we've talked about over the years,
can sometimes settle forts and struggle to beat their man
at the point of attack. I'm interested to see if
this Boston offense is a bit more resilient, with more
of a lead guard that they can go to to
get dribble penetration to start the engine when things get
(12:14):
kind of stagnant. Anthony gets up into that high hesitation
dribble and he will pressure those gaps and he will
get into the teeth of the defense. And so there
is a different look there that I think will be
really interesting. I like the move. It makes Boston a
more interesting watch this year. It's kind of like an
opportunity to get a different look at the Celtics offense
(12:36):
with a different archetype of player. And then one of
two things will happen. Either Brad Stevens will move him
for asset return to help Tatum and Brown when Tatum
gets back from his injury, or it'll be like, oh shit,
this works. Now, let's talk about what we're gonna look
like in the future in a system that involves both
Anthony Simon's and Jason Tatum and potentially Jalen Brown as well.
(12:58):
It is an awesome opportunity to run an experiment and
see what this player looks like in the most advanced
driving kick system that we have in the NBA right now.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I'm very, very excited to watch.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
It on the Portland front, I would assume this is
about opening up some ball handling responsibility, about opening up
a starting spot. Scoot Henderson has done a lot of
coming off the bench since he's been drafted. This is
a situation that should open up more lead ball handling
responsibility for him, more ball handling opportunities for guys like
Denny Avdio showed some off the dribble pop towards the
(13:31):
tail end of the season. I'm just wondering whether or
not they have any plans to actually use Drew Holliday
in the short term, or if they intend to flip it.
I feel like Drew is most valuable on a roster
that is championship capable, where he can push a team
over the top, and that's not really what Portland is.
But there is kind of this growing feisty defensive attitude
that Portland took on towards the second half of the
(13:52):
season or so as they started to rack up a
few more impressive wins than usual, a couple of those
like two week streaks where we're like, oh man, some
people this is interesting, right, Like Timani Kamara coming around
as one of the better young wing defenders in the league.
Robert Williams when he's healthy, is still a very really
impactful switching big and rim protecting big matist. Steibel has
been one of the better defensive wings in the league
(14:14):
for a long time. Drew Hollidays should fit into that
context extremely well in terms of helping them. It just
doesn't help them get to what their ultimate goals are.
And so that's why, you know, I kind of would
have preferred to see Drew go to more of a
contending team, but it'll be an interesting kind of influx
of defensive culture for that roster. All Right, Jackson, So
(14:35):
you've had about a little over twelve hours to think
about this deal. As a Celtics fan, where are you
at with Anthony Simon's becoming a Celtic?
Speaker 3 (14:46):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
I mean, I think it's a really fun flyer. There's
they haven't had a player like this in a while.
It We'll see what else they do this summer. You know,
I don't think this is the last MOVI for the
Celtics this summer, but it certainly is a fun bridge
option where if it really hits in a way that
(15:08):
maybe even higher than I'm expecting, then all of a
sudden in an East with all these injuries, like maybe
the Celtics are actually way more competitive than we may
have thought after the Tatum injury, and if it doesn't hit,
then it's like, Okay, that's kind of what we were expecting. Anyways,
It's sort of this sort of middle to middle down
year for Boston. The contract situation is has some upsides
(15:29):
and has some downsides. I mean, the fact that it's
expiring makes definitely an a tradable piece potentially at the
deadline if he's playing well and the Celtics don't want
to be competitive or don't want to be as competitive.
If he really plays well, though, I would be curious
what number they're comfortable ex sending him at, you know, like,
(15:49):
if it really hits, which there's they're gonna need offense,
and so it's certainly possible that he averages twenty four
points a game or something like that. I think that's
definitely within the realm of possibility. And if that happens,
I'm not sure what number you're comfortable signing him at,
considering he's not a plus defensive player and Missoula Ball.
(16:10):
While it's sort of most people think about it offensively
and it is. It's also a lot of we want
all of our players to be two way players, you
know what I mean. So that's the one one of
the question marks I think, but overall just zooming out.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I really like it for Boston.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I think it's a little weird for Portland, but you know,
they want to be a great defensive team and this
is going to help with that.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
So I get that, Yeah, the big key is going
to be just how good he is right away?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Like this is this a oh an underutilized lead guard
playing in clunky spacing on a defensive mind, it's set
a role player, a core for a you know, kind
of an inexperienced, relatively new head coach that hasn't had
any success yet in the NBA Like this is that
what's going on here? Or is Infnymonds just not that
(17:01):
level of guard? And we are going to find out.
I can I feel like in that Eastern Conference, which
is pretty open and alongside that group, like again, like
they're gonna make some moves this year, but like you
can count on Cornette being there, you can count on
Jaln Brown being there, most likely Pet Peyton, Pritchard, Sam
Houser Derek White, Like there's they're gonna be still a
(17:24):
good core of Celtics role players around him in a
system where these dudes have been playing this style for
a long time. And like, to me, I think the
indicator will be like the scoring plus the efficiency, Like
if they're if they're sitting at the All Star break
and he's at like sixty two percent true shooting because
(17:44):
he's been hitting forty percent of his pull up threes,
and like his drives have gone up from nine to
like thirteen per game because they're just creating more space
and all of a sudden, like it's just coming together
in a way that that is where I think you
start to look at it like, oh, we are actualizing
this player, and now he makes sense in this context.
(18:06):
And I think, honestly, to your point about the East
being open, that might literally be the best case scenario
if you could get like two playoff rounds out of
Anferny and kind of see him in that setting in
that context, I think that could be super interesting.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, I mean, I think the.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
He's immediately the second most skilled offensive player on the roster.
I mean, I like Derek White a lot, but he's
his overall value is in part because he's a two
way player. I think Anthonie Simons is immediately the second
best offensive player and and that's a little strange, Like
it's it's a unique context to go into a team
(18:45):
that was so it felt like perfectly built, and now
you have to just reach fool obviously after the Tatum injury.
But I think this is as good of a pivot
as you could make consider in the short term. It's
it's not what I was expecting to Drew Holliday deal.
I'm going to say that I was expecting a Dallas
Mavericks get a first round, hopefully get it. Like there
was some mixed reporting whether that it was going to
be the Celtish need to give up assets to get
(19:08):
off of that contract, or is the value good enough
we can get assets back. It was sort of mixed
reporting in that sense. I wasn't really sure what his
value was, and I was definitely not expecting a young
player in return. I was expecting picks really or a
young player, like a young player who's you know, developed
enough at this point. Maybe it would have been a
young flyer or something. But I think it's fun and
(19:30):
I think that you could talk yourself into a lot
of different outcomes considering how unstable the Weak feel the
East unstable the East fields Right.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Now, the usage piece is the interesting part. Like to
your point, I thought that we would see a couple
of different types of moves from Boston this year in
terms of bringing in younger role player talent, draft compensation,
things that would allow Brad to effectively pivot around Tatum
and Brown next year. That's that's what I was expecting too,
(20:01):
And like, it's just that that's what I met when
I said, like, oh, Boston became so much more interesting.
Anferny can come in and be high usage. Like I'm
not now whether or not it ends up being consistent
will be the key, but like you will have games
next year where Anferny drops thirty five and lights the
lights the TV garden on fire, and everyone's like, oh
(20:23):
my gosh, look at that. Like he will have awesome,
high scoring, massive games, like he had that famous game
winner driving pass Russell Westbrook this year against Denver. Like
he is a guy that has real upside. It's hasn't
come to fruition over the course of his career. But
I kind of like this like Bill Simmons used to
(20:44):
talk about this on his show all the time, and
it's kind of an interesting concept.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
It's likely lottery flyers.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
So like people who were picked in the lottery that
struggled in their first destination. That maybe you just think, oh,
we get him into a new kind of setting, and
this is a guy with some real I agree with,
some real talent, maybe we can get it out of him.
This is kind of like a different version of that.
It's more like in that after that second contract where
it's like he's much more established. But it's a similar
(21:09):
idea where it's like we've only seen this guy in
one construct. It's generally been a losing construct the entire
time he's been there. We've seen him on super offensive
minded rosters where he's put up big numbers but they
can't win. Now we've seen him on defensive minded rosters
or his efficiency tanks, but like they were you know,
over five hundred there for a big chunk of the season.
So like it's it's kind of it's just an experiment.
(21:32):
It's an experiment. And like in terms of the the
compensation piece to your point, like Drew Holliday was going
to get you something he wasn't going to get you
a haul, you know, you weren't gonna get three firsts,
or like a really really good, interesting young player. Like
to turn Drew Holiday, an expensive, older veteran player, into
a mid twenties dude that you can decide what you
(21:55):
want to do with next to me, is like a
really smart pivot that makes you more interesting. And it's
like a legitimate opportunity to like experiment for Boston's future,
because again, they were going to need to pivot. They
weren't going to be able to just bring everybody back
next year. Horford would have been too old, Porzingis would
have been too old, Drew Holiday would have been too old.
You've got to start experimenting with this right now.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
So I think in that context it definitely makes sense.
And also being able to get not that I'm banging
the drum for the value of second round picks or anything,
but Portland is trying to be competitive. The West is loaded.
I would frankly be surprised if they even made the plan.
Maybe they sneak into a nine or ten spot so
if they missed the playoffs, that that second round pick
(22:38):
could be picked thirty eight or something, which is not,
you know, crazy valuable, but you get two of them
from Portland which are decent dart throws or decent little
asset you know, fillers.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
You can throw in some other deals.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
So overall, I think value wise, I'm happy with it.
I think it's a real it's a way to make
the team a lot more. I was really kind of
expecting a complete sort of dump of a year, like
a of a year, and it's definitely not going to
be that. With a move like this, You're not you're
certainly not saying we're punting on the season. You're trying
to like, let's try it, Let's see if we can
be fun and competitive, especially in a down East.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
And Jalen Brown is going to be attacking this offseason,
preparing for his first full season as a lead ball handler.
You know, Jalen Brown is going to come in in
great shape. He's going to dictate most likely the best
perimeter defender on most nights, which will help put Inferny
back into a situation like he was in with Dame.
There's a lot of like inverted stuff he can do
with Jalen. I'm just excited I'm excited for open like
(23:32):
the opening week, and like seeing what the Celtics team
looks like.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
And I just didn't think that was going to be
the case.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
When Tatum went down to to heat the way that
he did, It'll be really weird.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I still have no idea, you know, they got a
lot of moves to make. I think what the front
court is going to look like, No idea what the
front court is going to look like. But Drew, Sorry,
Derek White, Anthony Simon's and Jalen Brown is a very
fun sort of trio going into going into the next season.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
I think from a back closing stand, totally agree, totally agree.
All right, guys, that's all we have today.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for suporting us
and supporting the show. If you didn't see it, we
did drop like an hour and a half of draft
content with Sam Vassini this morning. You guys can find
that a little bit further back on our feeds. We
will be back tomorrow night live during the NBA Draft.
We'll have some information on Twitter today about exactly when
we're doing that. I'll keep you guys posted, but it's
going to be basically right after the lottery, we'll do
(24:21):
our draft reaction, and then we're also going to have
some mailbag stuff later in the week. It's going to
be a fun week content. We appreciate you guys for
supporting us. We will see you tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
What's up guys.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting
OOPS tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us
if you guys would take a second and leave a
rating and a review.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
As always, I appreciate you guys.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Supporting us, but if you could take a minute to
do that, I'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
The volume
Host
Jason Timpf
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