May 28, 2021 • 23 mins
Even the closest couples can have differing ideas about sex. To answer questions on this intimate topic, Dr. Saltz welcomes guest Ian Kerner, psychotherapist and nationally recognized sexuality counselor who specializes in sex therapy and couples therapy.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
These are challenging times, but you don't have to navigate
them alone. Welcome to How Can I Help? I'm Dr GAYL. Saltz.
I'm a clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the New
York Presbyterian Hospital, a psychoanalyst, and best selling author, and
I'm here every week to answer your most pressing questions,
(00:26):
hopefully with understanding, insight and advice. Today we're going to
tackle some questions that are about sex. And I thought
it would be really helpful to have a guest with
me today who is a very well known sex therapist,
(00:46):
and I thought it would add a lot of dimension
to the information. My guest today is Ian Kerner, a
psychotherapist and nationally recognized sexuality counselor who specializes in sex
therapy and couples therapy. He's the author of the huge
bestseller She Comes First, The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring
(01:07):
a Woman, and now he has a new book out.
So tell me about the last time you had sex.
Laying there and learning to repair our love lives. And
I am super excited to have you here because well,
we've done a number of things in the past together
about relationships and sexual issues and you're the man as
(01:29):
far as I'm concerned. Yeah, when when it comes to
sex therapists and communicating this kind of information to people,
which can be hard for people to even ask about,
let her alone, um, really engage in a conversation about.
So we did get some questions today which I definitely
want to hit there are about the sexual part of relationships.
And I'm glad that people feel people can ask anonymously here,
(01:51):
so people do feel comfortable writing in with their questions
about sexual issues. But before that, how has this past year,
this difficult, difficult year and a really of social distancing
in particular in the pandemic affected your patient population? Would
you say, yeah, well, it's interesting gal Um. You know,
at the beginning of the pandemic, Um, I wasn't getting
(02:13):
any calls for new patients. I get a lot of calls,
you know, on a weekly basis, and I thought, oh, wow,
you know what, people are finally having sex, no more
excuses like no more commuting and um, no more obligations
after work and just being exhausted. Well, boy, was I raw.
I'm glad I didn't put any money on that bet
(02:35):
because it only took about a couple of weeks for um,
you know, just I got an onslaught of patient requests
and it's really it's really been persistent. And I think
what's happening is that people are coming in not with
new problems, Gale, it's still desire discrepancy issues, sexual function issues,
(02:59):
pleasure base issues, but they're really amplified, you know, right
because COVID has really taken such a sort of a
multi level hit on our sex lives, right, I mean
from just a health perspective where um, we're eating differently,
where we're not exercising as much, we're turning to smoking
(03:20):
and drinking and vaping as sort of a coping mechanism. Um,
you know, so that affects our sexual health where where um,
we're not changing out of our out of our pajamas,
we're not brushing our teeth, they're showering. I mean clearly
that affects you know, your sense of attractiveness, your self esteem.
And I think most importantly or the biggest factors were
(03:42):
really living on top of each other. We're not getting out,
we don't have these um, you know, external outlets, um,
and and so there's just this kind of relational claustrophobia
we're so near experience UM. So I think all of
that is UM is really combining, and it's particularly painful
(04:03):
when you know, a Friday night comes along and there
isn't much to do except watch Netflix or maybe have sex,
and you're not having sex. It's really apparent, right, Like
you strip everything away and it becomes really apparent. So
you found old patients calling you back, or new patients
(04:24):
saying I didn't have this problem before, or I did
have this problem before, but now I'm sort of ready
to like it's so amplified, I'm ready to deal with it.
Or do you have people returning and saying, well, things
have been better, but boy they're not good now. Yeah. Absolutely,
I'd say all of the above. Old patients returning, new
patients coming in with new problems, new patients coming in
(04:46):
with problems. They just you know, people wait. Going to
a sex therapist is like going to a dentist. You
usually wait until you're in pain, and you've waited way
too long, uh, and you know you just want to
get out of pain now. I should say, on a
positive note that some of my patients, especially the couples
who don't have kids or who don't have young kids.
(05:08):
They actually um some of them really use this as
an opportunity to get closer sexually and to finally work
on their sex life, or to put themselves through a
little bit of a sex boot camp. They can have
sex at different times, you know, in in different wounds,
they can try things, they have more time for things,
so it's not all bleak, you know. But I think
when you're part of like a system where there are
(05:31):
young kids and work, and you know you're just suddenly
having to wear so many different hats, I think that's
where the where people have really been challenged. So let's
get to it and see how can we help. So
the first question, dear doctor Saltz, my partner and I
have very different libidos. I want to have sex multiple
(05:52):
times a week, whereas they only do once every two weeks.
I love them very much, but it is hard when
we seem to have very different sexual needs. What do
you suggest is our relationship doomed? You know? Uh? First
of all, I would say, you know, it is important
to manage um, to regulate your own sexuality as well,
(06:13):
in addition to co regulating. Right, we do want to
have sex with our partners, but you know, if someone
really wants to have sex multiple times a week and
they're at a place in a relationship or in their
life cycle where that's really pressure for a partner, then
there's going to have to be some kind of self
regulation strategy, like you know, um, in terms of how
you manage your own sexuality and your self pleasure. UM.
(06:36):
But what I found interesting about the question is how
they've already sort of labeled in this. It feels like
one person has been labeled as the high desire partner
and the other person has been labeled as the low
desire partner. And and that's a way that we talk like, oh,
I always want it more. I'm the high desire partner.
And I actually think it's not about libido types like
(06:57):
lower high. I think it's about creating a shared desire framework, um,
where the way in which you're generating desire works for
both of you. Like for this high desire partner, uh,
he or she, they may see a get a single
sexual queue, like their partner coming out of the shower
and they're ready to go. So yeah, so they're ready
(07:19):
to go three times a week, five times a week,
seven times a week, because that's how they process a
sexual queue, and it doesn't matter if kids are crying
in the other room or there's an appointment coming up.
That's how they handle a sexual queue. But for their partner,
their partner might have a kind of desire that emerges
from the simmering of arousal and from reducing stress and
(07:42):
allowing those uh turn ons to get turned on. So
it's it's might be a slower process or simmering process,
but when they get to desire, it's just as strong.
So they're not a low desired person, they're just a
different desire person. And so understanding kind of what desire
framework you operate in and creating a shared framework with
(08:05):
your partners where I would really start. This person is concerned,
is our relationship doomed? No, but it does require it
does require some work to understand this so that there
aren't hurt feelings as you said, you know you wanted
all the time, or hey you you never want it
and taking it personally. Um and and and you're saying
this framework of um, this is how we understand each
(08:28):
other's desire, which is different. You know, I might be
the rabbit and you might be the turtle, or I
might be you know, like we we have a different style, um.
Is a way of sort of not personalizing it in
a hurtful way. UM. And at the same time as
you're saying, maybe the person who who wants to or
feel stimulated more often might need to be given permission
(08:49):
to and and help to masturbate sometimes as a way
of of self pleasure themselves so that that they don't
feel frustrated a lot of the time, but it be
able to appreciate themselves and yet still appreciate their partner.
And you know, and maybe the partner who's a little
bit of a turtle, and let's remember that turtle is
pretty strong and had a lot of stamina and ultimately
(09:10):
won the race, that turtle just um needs to lean
in a little more or sometimes have a little more willingness,
because if they need to percolate, then you have to
have the willingness to let yourself perculate, you know. So
you would advise there there does have to be some
movement toward the middle, some compromise, UM, but it doesn't
(09:31):
have to be a one d compromise. Absolutely move towards
the middle, and uh, change the internal model of how
you're thinking about your partner, right, I'm sure these people
are thinking right now, like, uh, they're so low desire,
they never initiate what's wrong with them? And that's like
an image in their mind. And I'm sure in the
other partner's mind it might be like all they want
(09:53):
is sex sex sex? What about you know, romance or
what about these other things or what about you know
helping out? Right, So we need to also update our
internal models of each other. How can I help with
Dr Gayl Salts will be back after the short break.
(10:21):
Dear Dr Saltz, I have been curious about experimenting sexually,
but I have been with my current partner for a
long time. I don't want them to feel rejected if
I suggest wanting to explore different kinks or bring new
things into the bedroom. So how do I go about
having this conversation with my partner? Do you have any
(10:41):
advice for expanding my own sexual boundaries? Well, I would say,
let's distinguish this is a person who it seems they
want more adventure, they want potentially kink, they want more eroticism,
they maybe want more fantasy, and they're they're afraid to
bring all of that up with their partner, it's vulnerable. Um,
(11:03):
they don't want their partner to feel rejected. You know,
the first thing I would say is, um, let's distinguish
the idea and the thought and the fantasy from the
behavior itself. Right, Like, not all fantasies have to lead
to behaviors. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But if,
like if sex is a swimming pool, there's a way
(11:23):
of dipping your toes into the shallow end before jumping
into the deep end. And you know what I love
about sexual conversation and sexual stimuli without even action is
that it creates physical arousal. So I bet if this
person without any kind of like you have to do
(11:43):
this or I want to do this, But this person
just said, you know, I had like the sexiest, hottest
dream about the two of us, or I actually I have.
I'm not saying we have to do this, but I
just want to know, like I, I have fantasies about you,
and they're real turn ons. If you could help that
partner to feel safe in the terrain of fantasy and
(12:04):
to open up the conversation, I think you you'd be
surprised that where you can both go. And again, it's
about meeting in the middle right, you might find that
one partner is actually, hey, I might actually like to
try some of this stuff I didn't think I would
in the other partner might end up saying, you know, hey,
it's enough to just sort of like watch it or
talk about it or share it or role play it
(12:27):
a little between the two of us. I don't actually
need to go out there in the world and do
this thing. So it's about conversation first. But you're suggesting
to this person at least, hey, bring it up, not
in a can we do X like in that direct way,
but more and around about I think about this and
(12:47):
it's sexy to me, or I saw this or I
dreamt this, or you know, some some content that's not
we need to do this now. But I had an
experienced myself in my mind and it turn me on
and I wanted to share it with you. I don't
know what you would think about it, you know, but
it's definitely turned on for me. And just see where
(13:09):
they go with that, you know, I mean, I guess
it does leave you vulnerable. You risk the other person
saying what that does not turn me on? Um, But
obviously you hope if you do it in this kind
of way that it might open the door for your
partner to be to say, well, I don't find that
particularly a turn on, but I do find this a
(13:30):
particular turn on. It might open a sexual conversation that
lets you both have the freedom to talk about what's
exciting to each of you, which might, as this person
is concerned about, open up new doors. Yep, no, I
think that that is exactly true. And I found when
you can create emotional safety around this or put the
(13:52):
put boundaries around it that you both agree on, you know,
fantasy can can flourish. You know, Like I actually have
talked to a lot of couples where there was pressure
to go have a threesome and it just led to
so much conflict. But when they actually talked about it
in a way that was not going to the behavior,
(14:13):
it was really a turn on for both of them. Right,
So so let's decouple the erotic from the behavioral for
a period of time. What I love about what you're
bringing up, and it does apply even to this person's
question who says, do you have any advice for expanding
my own sexual boundaries? Is that so often people it's
hard for people to remember that thought is not behavior,
(14:37):
that fantasy is thought and you and it's safe if
you will to think about whatever you want. And people
fantasize about all kinds of things that they don't necessarily
ever want to do. Um. And sometimes because people are
frightened of those thoughts, because they think it means they
(15:00):
want maybe want to do it, they suppress their own fantasies,
fantasies that could be used in in in enhancing their
own as this person brings up sexual boundaries their own
sexual pleasure. Um. You know, you can be in bed
and fantasize about all manner of things that you would
never want to actually do and or and maybe even
(15:23):
not the person that you're actually with. But if it's
serving your sexual life with this person, that is not
a bad thing. But people often squelch it because they
just feel afraid. And I would say go for it,
you know, and don't just say, oh, I want to
do this thing or I'm thinking about this thing. Put
a little sexy language around it, and let it come
(15:44):
from a place of desire. I find across the board
gal age gender orientation, we want to feel desired, you know,
So I I would say take the risk, let your
partner feel desired and desired in a new way. But
it's just it's just a fantasy. So You've got this
(16:05):
fabulous new book out and a key element is this
idea of the sex script. Can you tell us what
is the sex script basically, and how can it help
us to understand our own sex script? For sure? Um,
So you know, couples come in with problems, um, individuals
(16:27):
come in with problems, desire issues and uh. And you know,
like I said, people really want to get out of pain,
so you can get out of pain. So I want
to work quickly, right, I don't have time to do
like a psychoanalytic journey with someone. So I've developed a
methodology where once I've learned about the problem, one of
the first questions I asked is, so tell me about
(16:48):
the last time you had sex. And it's it's a
simple question, but we really start to get the feeling
of that of sex being an event with a beginning, middle,
and an end and a sequence of interactions that are
are physical, that are emotional and psychological that all come together.
And that is sort of really what I call the
(17:08):
sex script. Everything that happens from the moments you initiate
to um where you're having sex, to the eroticism, to
how you're building arousal, to how you're reaching orgasm, to
how you're connecting afterwards, to the erotic thread that leads
you to another sexual event. And generally, what I have
found is a that people have sex scripts. You know,
(17:32):
if you've been in a relationship or even if you're dating,
you know, you you tend to have ideas about how
you should be having sex and ways that you're having sex.
And look, if your sex script works fantastic, I'm not
seeing those people. What I'm seeing are people whose sex
scripts are reinforcing the problem that they're coming in with.
(17:53):
So I'm literally looking to rewrite the sex script where
problems are occurring. So it could be in the desire phase, right,
like one partner just gets out of the gate so
quickly desire wise and can just launch into arousal and
the other partner really gets left behind. Well, that's a
problem in the sex script that needs to be changed
(18:16):
to get them into a desire framework. Or maybe someone's
just not getting turned on enough and their head is
filled with anxiety and they can't focus. Well, maybe they
need not just physical stimulation, but maybe maybe they need
psychological stimulation. Maybe we need to bring that mind based arousal,
(18:37):
some of that fantasy into the picture. So it's really
just looking at slow motion in a of looking in
slow motion at a sexual event and kind of figuring
out how to work with it and kind of rewrite
it a little bit. We hope you thought that was helpful.
I really love the idea that when tackling sex and sexuality,
(19:03):
Ian puts a particular spin on thinking about the cultural
and societal issues that we struggle with. We all struggle
with in terms of sexuality. It's so interesting. I love
your idea that you'd like to change some of the
cultural themes um that are really stuck um in our society.
We are a highly sexualized society. Actually, you everywhere you
(19:27):
turn right, there's something about sex. We we sexualize younger
and younger people. Um. And yet it's sort of this oxymoron.
You know, everything is very sexualized, but it's not about
actual sex. I mean, it's it's it's or it's certainly
not about erotic. It's really very superficial, I guess I'll say.
(19:49):
And it's not about sort of meaningful sexual engagement, and
we still have a lot of taboo, uh and talking
about what's really on our minds or what's really going
on with our partners. Yeah, that's so true. There are
so many cultural narratives. I mean, I think for me,
this my whole book really began with my own origin story,
(20:10):
which is I struggled so terribly with sexual dysfunction, and
it was really a dysfunction that was only dysfunction when
you accept what I call sort of the intercourse discourse
and that there's one way that sex is supposed to look.
But as soon as I kind of challenge that and decided, well,
I could create an outer course space script. You know,
(20:31):
maybe I can't get the sex in my head to
match up with my genitals, but there's other ways for
me to express myself. And I feel like since then,
I've been having to constantly challenge these narratives. You know,
I'm in my mid fifties right now, and I can
honestly say I'm truly having better sex than when I
was in my thirties, when I had kids around, or
(20:52):
when I was not taking care of myself as well.
But you would say at fifty five, you're supposed to
be you know, long dormants. Actually you know so, Lord,
I hope not right. So I mean just we should
constantly be challenging these narratives. Well, thank you so much
for all of these great not just parls of wisdom,
(21:14):
but you know, UM, really thoughts about culturally and psychologically,
how we how we tackle really such an important part
of life, And particularly after this year and a half
that has been so difficult, I think a lot of
people have had a lot of perspective changes in terms
(21:35):
of what really matters. You're seeing You're seeing data come
out about what people are seeking now, and it has
more to do with relationships than anything else, honestly, UM,
and particularly even for young people are looking more for
long term, meaningful relationships as opposed to just you know,
popping around and UM. Of course, having a healthy sexual
(21:58):
life is ultimately a big important part of that. So
it seems to me this the idea of of understanding
your sex script and UM and and trying to make
it as healthy as you can and UM and being
willing to talk to someone like you if you are
(22:20):
having a struggle UM is so so so important. So
I hope that people get an idea that it's not
a scary place, and it can really it can make
all the difference. Yeah, thank you. Know, Um, sometimes I'll
work with a couple or an individual for just one session, right,
Sometimes it doesn't take more than a single session. I
(22:42):
just did that yesterday. To feel normalized and to have
some psycho education and to have a sense of direction.
So be proactive. You know. Sex is important. It's a
it's a vital central part of our lives. Fabulous and
thank you so much, Thank you, I really really appreciate it. Thanks.
(23:04):
Do you have a problem I can help with? If so,
email me at how can I Help? At Seneca women
dot com. All senders remain anonymous and listen every Friday
to how can I help with me? Dr Gails Salts
These are challenging times, but you don't have to navigate
them alone. Welcome to How Can I Help? I'm Dr GAYL. Saltz.
I'm a clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the New
York Presbyterian Hospital, a psychoanalyst, and best selling author, and
I'm here every week to answer your most pressing questions,
(00:26):
hopefully with understanding, insight and advice. Today we're going to
tackle some questions that are about sex. And I thought
it would be really helpful to have a guest with
me today who is a very well known sex therapist,
(00:46):
and I thought it would add a lot of dimension
to the information. My guest today is Ian Kerner, a
psychotherapist and nationally recognized sexuality counselor who specializes in sex
therapy and couples therapy. He's the author of the huge
bestseller She Comes First, The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring
(01:07):
a Woman, and now he has a new book out.
So tell me about the last time you had sex.
Laying there and learning to repair our love lives. And
I am super excited to have you here because well,
we've done a number of things in the past together
about relationships and sexual issues and you're the man as
(01:29):
far as I'm concerned. Yeah, when when it comes to
sex therapists and communicating this kind of information to people,
which can be hard for people to even ask about,
let her alone, um, really engage in a conversation about.
So we did get some questions today which I definitely
want to hit there are about the sexual part of relationships.
And I'm glad that people feel people can ask anonymously here,
(01:51):
so people do feel comfortable writing in with their questions
about sexual issues. But before that, how has this past year,
this difficult, difficult year and a really of social distancing
in particular in the pandemic affected your patient population? Would
you say, yeah, well, it's interesting gal Um. You know,
at the beginning of the pandemic, Um, I wasn't getting
(02:13):
any calls for new patients. I get a lot of calls,
you know, on a weekly basis, and I thought, oh, wow,
you know what, people are finally having sex, no more
excuses like no more commuting and um, no more obligations
after work and just being exhausted. Well, boy, was I raw.
I'm glad I didn't put any money on that bet
(02:35):
because it only took about a couple of weeks for um,
you know, just I got an onslaught of patient requests
and it's really it's really been persistent. And I think
what's happening is that people are coming in not with
new problems, Gale, it's still desire discrepancy issues, sexual function issues,
(02:59):
pleasure base issues, but they're really amplified, you know, right
because COVID has really taken such a sort of a
multi level hit on our sex lives, right, I mean
from just a health perspective where um, we're eating differently,
where we're not exercising as much, we're turning to smoking
(03:20):
and drinking and vaping as sort of a coping mechanism. Um,
you know, so that affects our sexual health where where um,
we're not changing out of our out of our pajamas,
we're not brushing our teeth, they're showering. I mean clearly
that affects you know, your sense of attractiveness, your self esteem.
And I think most importantly or the biggest factors were
(03:42):
really living on top of each other. We're not getting out,
we don't have these um, you know, external outlets, um,
and and so there's just this kind of relational claustrophobia
we're so near experience UM. So I think all of
that is UM is really combining, and it's particularly painful
(04:03):
when you know, a Friday night comes along and there
isn't much to do except watch Netflix or maybe have sex,
and you're not having sex. It's really apparent, right, Like
you strip everything away and it becomes really apparent. So
you found old patients calling you back, or new patients
(04:24):
saying I didn't have this problem before, or I did
have this problem before, but now I'm sort of ready
to like it's so amplified, I'm ready to deal with it.
Or do you have people returning and saying, well, things
have been better, but boy they're not good now. Yeah. Absolutely,
I'd say all of the above. Old patients returning, new
patients coming in with new problems, new patients coming in
(04:46):
with problems. They just you know, people wait. Going to
a sex therapist is like going to a dentist. You
usually wait until you're in pain, and you've waited way
too long, uh, and you know you just want to
get out of pain now. I should say, on a
positive note that some of my patients, especially the couples
who don't have kids or who don't have young kids.
(05:08):
They actually um some of them really use this as
an opportunity to get closer sexually and to finally work
on their sex life, or to put themselves through a
little bit of a sex boot camp. They can have
sex at different times, you know, in in different wounds,
they can try things, they have more time for things,
so it's not all bleak, you know. But I think
when you're part of like a system where there are
(05:31):
young kids and work, and you know you're just suddenly
having to wear so many different hats, I think that's
where the where people have really been challenged. So let's
get to it and see how can we help. So
the first question, dear doctor Saltz, my partner and I
have very different libidos. I want to have sex multiple
(05:52):
times a week, whereas they only do once every two weeks.
I love them very much, but it is hard when
we seem to have very different sexual needs. What do
you suggest is our relationship doomed? You know? Uh? First
of all, I would say, you know, it is important
to manage um, to regulate your own sexuality as well,
(06:13):
in addition to co regulating. Right, we do want to
have sex with our partners, but you know, if someone
really wants to have sex multiple times a week and
they're at a place in a relationship or in their
life cycle where that's really pressure for a partner, then
there's going to have to be some kind of self
regulation strategy, like you know, um, in terms of how
you manage your own sexuality and your self pleasure. UM.
(06:36):
But what I found interesting about the question is how
they've already sort of labeled in this. It feels like
one person has been labeled as the high desire partner
and the other person has been labeled as the low
desire partner. And and that's a way that we talk like, oh,
I always want it more. I'm the high desire partner.
And I actually think it's not about libido types like
(06:57):
lower high. I think it's about creating a shared desire framework, um,
where the way in which you're generating desire works for
both of you. Like for this high desire partner, uh,
he or she, they may see a get a single
sexual queue, like their partner coming out of the shower
and they're ready to go. So yeah, so they're ready
(07:19):
to go three times a week, five times a week,
seven times a week, because that's how they process a
sexual queue, and it doesn't matter if kids are crying
in the other room or there's an appointment coming up.
That's how they handle a sexual queue. But for their partner,
their partner might have a kind of desire that emerges
from the simmering of arousal and from reducing stress and
(07:42):
allowing those uh turn ons to get turned on. So
it's it's might be a slower process or simmering process,
but when they get to desire, it's just as strong.
So they're not a low desired person, they're just a
different desire person. And so understanding kind of what desire
framework you operate in and creating a shared framework with
(08:05):
your partners where I would really start. This person is concerned,
is our relationship doomed? No, but it does require it
does require some work to understand this so that there
aren't hurt feelings as you said, you know you wanted
all the time, or hey you you never want it
and taking it personally. Um and and and you're saying
this framework of um, this is how we understand each
(08:28):
other's desire, which is different. You know, I might be
the rabbit and you might be the turtle, or I
might be you know, like we we have a different style, um.
Is a way of sort of not personalizing it in
a hurtful way. UM. And at the same time as
you're saying, maybe the person who who wants to or
feel stimulated more often might need to be given permission
(08:49):
to and and help to masturbate sometimes as a way
of of self pleasure themselves so that that they don't
feel frustrated a lot of the time, but it be
able to appreciate themselves and yet still appreciate their partner.
And you know, and maybe the partner who's a little
bit of a turtle, and let's remember that turtle is
pretty strong and had a lot of stamina and ultimately
(09:10):
won the race, that turtle just um needs to lean
in a little more or sometimes have a little more willingness,
because if they need to percolate, then you have to
have the willingness to let yourself perculate, you know. So
you would advise there there does have to be some
movement toward the middle, some compromise, UM, but it doesn't
(09:31):
have to be a one d compromise. Absolutely move towards
the middle, and uh, change the internal model of how
you're thinking about your partner, right, I'm sure these people
are thinking right now, like, uh, they're so low desire,
they never initiate what's wrong with them? And that's like
an image in their mind. And I'm sure in the
other partner's mind it might be like all they want
(09:53):
is sex sex sex? What about you know, romance or
what about these other things or what about you know
helping out? Right, So we need to also update our
internal models of each other. How can I help with
Dr Gayl Salts will be back after the short break.
(10:21):
Dear Dr Saltz, I have been curious about experimenting sexually,
but I have been with my current partner for a
long time. I don't want them to feel rejected if
I suggest wanting to explore different kinks or bring new
things into the bedroom. So how do I go about
having this conversation with my partner? Do you have any
(10:41):
advice for expanding my own sexual boundaries? Well, I would say,
let's distinguish this is a person who it seems they
want more adventure, they want potentially kink, they want more eroticism,
they maybe want more fantasy, and they're they're afraid to
bring all of that up with their partner, it's vulnerable. Um,
(11:03):
they don't want their partner to feel rejected. You know,
the first thing I would say is, um, let's distinguish
the idea and the thought and the fantasy from the
behavior itself. Right, Like, not all fantasies have to lead
to behaviors. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But if,
like if sex is a swimming pool, there's a way
(11:23):
of dipping your toes into the shallow end before jumping
into the deep end. And you know what I love
about sexual conversation and sexual stimuli without even action is
that it creates physical arousal. So I bet if this
person without any kind of like you have to do
(11:43):
this or I want to do this, But this person
just said, you know, I had like the sexiest, hottest
dream about the two of us, or I actually I have.
I'm not saying we have to do this, but I
just want to know, like I, I have fantasies about you,
and they're real turn ons. If you could help that
partner to feel safe in the terrain of fantasy and
(12:04):
to open up the conversation, I think you you'd be
surprised that where you can both go. And again, it's
about meeting in the middle right, you might find that
one partner is actually, hey, I might actually like to
try some of this stuff I didn't think I would
in the other partner might end up saying, you know, hey,
it's enough to just sort of like watch it or
talk about it or share it or role play it
(12:27):
a little between the two of us. I don't actually
need to go out there in the world and do
this thing. So it's about conversation first. But you're suggesting
to this person at least, hey, bring it up, not
in a can we do X like in that direct way,
but more and around about I think about this and
(12:47):
it's sexy to me, or I saw this or I
dreamt this, or you know, some some content that's not
we need to do this now. But I had an
experienced myself in my mind and it turn me on
and I wanted to share it with you. I don't
know what you would think about it, you know, but
it's definitely turned on for me. And just see where
(13:09):
they go with that, you know, I mean, I guess
it does leave you vulnerable. You risk the other person
saying what that does not turn me on? Um, But
obviously you hope if you do it in this kind
of way that it might open the door for your
partner to be to say, well, I don't find that
particularly a turn on, but I do find this a
(13:30):
particular turn on. It might open a sexual conversation that
lets you both have the freedom to talk about what's
exciting to each of you, which might, as this person
is concerned about, open up new doors. Yep, no, I
think that that is exactly true. And I found when
you can create emotional safety around this or put the
(13:52):
put boundaries around it that you both agree on, you know,
fantasy can can flourish. You know, Like I actually have
talked to a lot of couples where there was pressure
to go have a threesome and it just led to
so much conflict. But when they actually talked about it
in a way that was not going to the behavior,
(14:13):
it was really a turn on for both of them. Right,
So so let's decouple the erotic from the behavioral for
a period of time. What I love about what you're
bringing up, and it does apply even to this person's
question who says, do you have any advice for expanding
my own sexual boundaries? Is that so often people it's
hard for people to remember that thought is not behavior,
(14:37):
that fantasy is thought and you and it's safe if
you will to think about whatever you want. And people
fantasize about all kinds of things that they don't necessarily
ever want to do. Um. And sometimes because people are
frightened of those thoughts, because they think it means they
(15:00):
want maybe want to do it, they suppress their own fantasies,
fantasies that could be used in in in enhancing their
own as this person brings up sexual boundaries their own
sexual pleasure. Um. You know, you can be in bed
and fantasize about all manner of things that you would
never want to actually do and or and maybe even
(15:23):
not the person that you're actually with. But if it's
serving your sexual life with this person, that is not
a bad thing. But people often squelch it because they
just feel afraid. And I would say go for it,
you know, and don't just say, oh, I want to
do this thing or I'm thinking about this thing. Put
a little sexy language around it, and let it come
(15:44):
from a place of desire. I find across the board
gal age gender orientation, we want to feel desired, you know,
So I I would say take the risk, let your
partner feel desired and desired in a new way. But
it's just it's just a fantasy. So You've got this
(16:05):
fabulous new book out and a key element is this
idea of the sex script. Can you tell us what
is the sex script basically, and how can it help
us to understand our own sex script? For sure? Um,
So you know, couples come in with problems, um, individuals
(16:27):
come in with problems, desire issues and uh. And you know,
like I said, people really want to get out of pain,
so you can get out of pain. So I want
to work quickly, right, I don't have time to do
like a psychoanalytic journey with someone. So I've developed a
methodology where once I've learned about the problem, one of
the first questions I asked is, so tell me about
(16:48):
the last time you had sex. And it's it's a
simple question, but we really start to get the feeling
of that of sex being an event with a beginning, middle,
and an end and a sequence of interactions that are
are physical, that are emotional and psychological that all come together.
And that is sort of really what I call the
(17:08):
sex script. Everything that happens from the moments you initiate
to um where you're having sex, to the eroticism, to
how you're building arousal, to how you're reaching orgasm, to
how you're connecting afterwards, to the erotic thread that leads
you to another sexual event. And generally, what I have
found is a that people have sex scripts. You know,
(17:32):
if you've been in a relationship or even if you're dating,
you know, you you tend to have ideas about how
you should be having sex and ways that you're having sex.
And look, if your sex script works fantastic, I'm not
seeing those people. What I'm seeing are people whose sex
scripts are reinforcing the problem that they're coming in with.
(17:53):
So I'm literally looking to rewrite the sex script where
problems are occurring. So it could be in the desire phase, right,
like one partner just gets out of the gate so
quickly desire wise and can just launch into arousal and
the other partner really gets left behind. Well, that's a
problem in the sex script that needs to be changed
(18:16):
to get them into a desire framework. Or maybe someone's
just not getting turned on enough and their head is
filled with anxiety and they can't focus. Well, maybe they
need not just physical stimulation, but maybe maybe they need
psychological stimulation. Maybe we need to bring that mind based arousal,
(18:37):
some of that fantasy into the picture. So it's really
just looking at slow motion in a of looking in
slow motion at a sexual event and kind of figuring
out how to work with it and kind of rewrite
it a little bit. We hope you thought that was helpful.
I really love the idea that when tackling sex and sexuality,
(19:03):
Ian puts a particular spin on thinking about the cultural
and societal issues that we struggle with. We all struggle
with in terms of sexuality. It's so interesting. I love
your idea that you'd like to change some of the
cultural themes um that are really stuck um in our society.
We are a highly sexualized society. Actually, you everywhere you
(19:27):
turn right, there's something about sex. We we sexualize younger
and younger people. Um. And yet it's sort of this oxymoron.
You know, everything is very sexualized, but it's not about
actual sex. I mean, it's it's it's or it's certainly
not about erotic. It's really very superficial, I guess I'll say.
(19:49):
And it's not about sort of meaningful sexual engagement, and
we still have a lot of taboo, uh and talking
about what's really on our minds or what's really going
on with our partners. Yeah, that's so true. There are
so many cultural narratives. I mean, I think for me,
this my whole book really began with my own origin story,
(20:10):
which is I struggled so terribly with sexual dysfunction, and
it was really a dysfunction that was only dysfunction when
you accept what I call sort of the intercourse discourse
and that there's one way that sex is supposed to look.
But as soon as I kind of challenge that and decided, well,
I could create an outer course space script. You know,
(20:31):
maybe I can't get the sex in my head to
match up with my genitals, but there's other ways for
me to express myself. And I feel like since then,
I've been having to constantly challenge these narratives. You know,
I'm in my mid fifties right now, and I can
honestly say I'm truly having better sex than when I
was in my thirties, when I had kids around, or
(20:52):
when I was not taking care of myself as well.
But you would say at fifty five, you're supposed to
be you know, long dormants. Actually you know so, Lord,
I hope not right. So I mean just we should
constantly be challenging these narratives. Well, thank you so much
for all of these great not just parls of wisdom,
(21:14):
but you know, UM, really thoughts about culturally and psychologically,
how we how we tackle really such an important part
of life, And particularly after this year and a half
that has been so difficult, I think a lot of
people have had a lot of perspective changes in terms
(21:35):
of what really matters. You're seeing You're seeing data come
out about what people are seeking now, and it has
more to do with relationships than anything else, honestly, UM,
and particularly even for young people are looking more for
long term, meaningful relationships as opposed to just you know,
popping around and UM. Of course, having a healthy sexual
(21:58):
life is ultimately a big important part of that. So
it seems to me this the idea of of understanding
your sex script and UM and and trying to make
it as healthy as you can and UM and being
willing to talk to someone like you if you are
(22:20):
having a struggle UM is so so so important. So
I hope that people get an idea that it's not
a scary place, and it can really it can make
all the difference. Yeah, thank you. Know, Um, sometimes I'll
work with a couple or an individual for just one session, right,
Sometimes it doesn't take more than a single session. I
(22:42):
just did that yesterday. To feel normalized and to have
some psycho education and to have a sense of direction.
So be proactive. You know. Sex is important. It's a
it's a vital central part of our lives. Fabulous and
thank you so much, Thank you, I really really appreciate it. Thanks.
(23:04):
Do you have a problem I can help with? If so,
email me at how can I Help? At Seneca women
dot com. All senders remain anonymous and listen every Friday
to how can I help with me? Dr Gails Salts
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.