June 15, 2025 • 34 mins
He’s a pastor, a best selling author, a husband and father of five who travels the world speaking about Jesus, faith and living beautifully through grief. Amy and T.J. first admired the wisdom of Pastor Levi during their time at ABC News, but in this episode you’ll hear his latest advice about dealing with transition, loss, failure and fear.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Well, our next guest here on the INDJ podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
You are very excited about because he is a familiar
face to us. TJ.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
We met Pastor Levi Lusco in September of twenty twenty one.
We had a favorite segment when we hosted GMA three.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
What was that segment?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It was Faith Friday. And I'm thinking back to September
of twenty twenty one. Oh, what a simpler time it
was for us, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yes, it certainly was.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Oh yes, But we were able to have on faith
leaders every Friday who would lead our viewers into the
weekend with some inspiration, and we certainly took so much
with us as well, and it ended up becoming our
favorite segment. And so yes, I remember you remember Pastor
Levi Lusco. He has a powerful story of how he
(00:53):
became the amazing person he is and I know he's
still becoming. But cool thing as anyone who is a
fan of the podcast, I hope knows that one of
my best friends, we've done one or two podcasts with her.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Nikki Espina.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
She's my running buddy, she's my best friend, and she
happened to go to Brooklyn the other day to go
to a run club that was hosted by none other
than Pastor Levi Lusco, and she said, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I ran into Levi Lusco. He has a brand new
book out.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
It's called and I'm going to give you guys the
title here because I love it. Blessed are the Spiraling,
How the chaotic search for significance can lead to joy
through life's shifting seasons. And she sent me the book
and she said, you gotta listen to this. But also
I got to run with him. I got to run
with Levi's daughter, his wife. It was an inspiring moment,
(01:49):
and so I thought, wow, I didn't First of all,
I didn't know that Pastor Lusco ran and was such
a big runner, and we already had something in common
with him. And then I just thought, let's bring him
on and talk about them. So without further ado, Pastor
Levi Lusco, thanks for being with us today.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Oh my gosh, it's such a joy. I look back
so fondly on meeting you guys back in the day,
and I've always had such warmth in my heart towards you.
And so what a small fun world to collide. I've
tracked with your journey I love watching the runs TJ.
Your hamstring thing. I felt the pain with you. Yeah,
(02:26):
so it's really thank you for having me on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
That's cool to hear. And to your title, can I
get right to that? Blessed are the Spiraling? Now? A
lot of people can relate to that, and I think
about a year and a half ago, we would have
considered ourselves right in the thick of that. Who are
the spiraling? Is that essentially everybody?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
I think sadly it tends to be almost all of
us at some point or another, usually at life's transition moments.
But we all end up spiraling, and not always through
bad things. I mean, we can spiral because of grief.
Of course, a job or career change, a catastrophic crisis
you go through can do it. For me, I went
through a lot of it. The spiral that I talk
(03:08):
about from the perspective of in the book was at
the end of my thirties, kind of that midlife energy.
For whatever reason, so many people when they hit the
apex point of life, the halfway point, there comes a
lot of destabilization. Part of that's necessary so that you
can get rid of what's not important, focus on what
you're supposed to do retool sort of for the second
(03:29):
half of life. But interestingly enough, early life crisis is
actually even more prevalent than a midlife or a later
life crisis. But spiraling comes in all shapes and sizes,
and it can even be weirdly enough, through something good.
You can spiral because of something you always wanted. You
maybe always wanted to be a parent, but then you
have kids and turns out there's complications too it, so, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Things aren't always what they seem. You get that dream
job and then you realize you're still not happy.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
That definitely happened to me.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Where you're in the job that you'd been chasing your
whole life, and then you get there and you think,
why am I still not happy? You talk about midlife
crises in this book, but you say, this isn't about
like getting the sports car or changing who you're married to,
or you know, dressing differently.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
It's actually much deeper than that.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah, I think a lot of times to your point, Amy,
we sort of build up in our heads what an
accomplishment is going to feel like, or what it's supposed
to feel like when we quote unquote arrive Seth Godin
talks about how he always wanted to be a New
York Times bestseller and the day it finally happened, his
assistant called to tell him it had happened, and he
was horrified because he felt nothing. And I think sometimes
(04:44):
we build up what these things are going to feel like,
and they cannot help but disappoint us because you know,
it's just it's different. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
But what I'm trying to communicate is that blessings and
burdens are both heavy, and so they can easily be
mistaken for one for another. And so I think it's
learning not just what we're facing, but how to think
(05:04):
about what we're facing. And I am a person of
faith like you guys, and I love the words of
Jesus and the beatitudes. Blessed are the poor and spirit.
Blessed are those who moarn. Blessed are those who are persecuted,
who are reviled. Now, none of those things we would
consider blessings. We want the lottery scratcher to win. We
(05:25):
want the front parking spot at the gym, which is
hilarious in its own way, that we need the front
row of parking spot before we because Heaven forbid we
work out on the way to working out. Real talk there.
But I think, according to Jesus, the true blessings comes
not when we're getting everything we ever wanted, but in
the difficulty, when we press into Him and we truly
(05:47):
experience the joy that's possible even in the midst of trials.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Can you hit on something a little more, you kind
of scratch the surface there. But this idea, and I'm
sure somebody heard it when you said it, when you
get exactly what you want, you thought it was what
you wanted, and you thought this was the thing that
was going to make you happy, and you were chasing,
and then you get it and you feel nothing.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
What does that mean? I think it means that we
pin our hopes of happiness on things when things don't
really bring happiness. Possessions and status, all of the things
in the world. Jesus said it's possible to gain the
whole world, but lose your soul. The translation I like
for that verse actually means lose your very self, and
(06:27):
we can end up mistakenly thinking that success for whatever
that means in the season of life we're in, is
going to somehow fulfill us and what we are meant
to create, I believe, especially in the second half of life.
But it's true in all of life, is that there
are things that are far more significant than just success,
(06:48):
than being perceived as being important or whatever. But it's
funny even Jesus's disciples struggled with this because here he
is trying to go to the cross come out of
the tomb, and his disciples are arguing about which one
of them's the greatest disciple. And it's so easy to
kind of benchmark ourselves based on do I have more,
have I accomplished more, Do I have more followers? Do
I have more shine or riz or whatever it is
(07:09):
in the world's eyes. And so I think it's it's
learning to recalibrate, learning where to find true significance. And
I think that's the million dollar question.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Pastor LEVI, Man, you what you just said hit so
hard with me, and I'm guessing with TJ as well,
just because as much as I don't think I wanted
to consider my value wrapped up or a part of
or because of what I did for a living, but man,
when it's all taken away, when you're stripped down to
(07:40):
the very bare minimum of who you are and what
counts and what matters. All that stuff that you use
to distract yourself or to fill yourself up or to
make yourself feel important.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
When it all is gone, you are forced to face
what is within.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And that is so difficult and at times felt like
hopeless in moments. But it's only I think, when you
get to that place where you're forced to face how
we're valuing ourselves and how we value each other. You know,
we you know, just had a very like all in
your face all at once, just avalanche of that.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
But my god, I am a better person because of it.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So I'm hearing what you have to say and it's resonating,
but it's really hard, And how do you even know?
How do you even confront that if you don't have
some explosive thing.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
That happens to you.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
I mean maybe something happens to everyone at some point,
but how do you get to that place of recognition?
Speaker 4 (08:41):
You know, what you're describing is so important. What we
think is going to make us happy is usually not
what truly brings meaning to our lives. If you were
to ask the average person, would you rather have cancer
or win the lottery, like most people are going to hello,
I'd like to win the lottery. Yet most lottery winners
find that it does not enrich their lives in many ways,
(09:04):
can complicate and even destroy their life in the fabric
of their friendships and relationships. And yet almost every cancer survivor,
without question, who comes through the experience says, I have
a greater sense of gratitude, I have a greater sense
of appreciation. I'm more thankful and more grounded. I mean,
Jeremy Renner, who got run over by a fourteen thousand
pounds snowplow, says, when you ask Joe Rogan said are
(09:25):
you better? Have you recovered from that? And he said,
I haven't just recovered. I'm better, I'm one hundred and
fifty percent. I'm more thankful. There are so many gifts.
I'm so grateful for that experience. What is that? That
is the stripping away? He lost everything, thirty eight broken bones, liver, peers, lung, collapsed, brain,
skull crushed, and yet he's coming through saying I'm so
thankful I went through that. You know what you guys
(09:48):
are describing, And in my life grief, lost, death, pain,
And I think for me even my midlife crisis sort
of exposed me to how much of my identity and
ego were connected to youth. Because I was ordained as
a pastor at twenty, and as I kind of pastored
around the world, traveling got opportunities. Every time, it was
(10:09):
always just oh, this young pastor, this young pastor, and
I didn't realize how much of that kind of had
had had led to how I saw me. And I
don't think we know what makes us us until it
gets taken from us, and then we find out if
we were building on sand or rock. And the only
true meaning, as I see it, that actually lasts eternity
is our standing before God, our love from Jesus. And
(10:31):
I think when we build our lives and our relationships
on those things that can't get taken away, then we're
able to go through whatever trials we want, and there's
going to be true Joy.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I'm going back to the title of your book here
you're talking. You called it chaotic. Was a chaotic search
for significance. Go through that part of that we can
all kind of relate to. All Right, we're all searching
for something. Want to be a part of search for
significance makes sense, but explain what we're doing there chaotic.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
So Ronald Rollheiser said that success still feels good in
the second half of life, it just has less to
teach us. Okay, So what we're trying to learn how
to do is to focus less just on what we
do that makes us feel important and what we can
do that actually enriches our lives, which is to help
and to ennoble other people. So the way I talk
(11:31):
about it in the book, because I see life through movies,
we all want to be Luke Skywalker or Princess Leah forever,
but we need in life to graduate to being Obi
wan Kenobi and then eventually to be Yoda. Right. Yoda
spent his life at the Yoda Academy, teaching and distilling
principles of wisdom to help other people. And there's a
(11:52):
beauty in that to not trying to stay forever young
and stay at the top of our game because we
can't do that, but instead too great fully accept that
seasons of life contain God's glory, even if they're not
all the season that we look at as like that's
our my glory days. Right, And so the chaotic search
for significance is as we navigate the shifting seasons of
(12:15):
life and pain and betrayal and confusion and our own
bad decisions too, because part of for me, I know
I'm complicit in my own suffering. Some of my spiraling
is self inflicted, you know, whether expectations or narcissism, that
I struggle with, my own addiction to social media, and
you know that I can't silence those things and just
(12:36):
get out and take a run more often, which is
part of the way running Running has become therapeutic for me,
because there's nothing that comes with you in the chaos
of life when you're out on a run, hopefully, and
and so I think it's learning even when I'm feeling
like I co'm spiraling, to instead say hey, what can
I do? How can I focus? How can I call
(12:57):
and encourage somebody? How can I do something for somebody else?
What can I do good for me and my connection
to my soul, my wife, my kids? And you always
come away from those things better because they're significant. They're
not just the flashy you know, less of the flesh,
less of the eyes, pride of life, steps that the
world wants you to focus on.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
I know that so much of anyone who is a
part of self help, and it's about finding the joy
from within that it's not looking at it from outside
sources or external sources. However, I know that you and
your wife Jenny of twenty one years, have you been
married for twenty one years?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Congratulations first of all, but you all.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Actually have published marriage devotionals and you you actually tell people,
teach people how to have a stronger marriage.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
How important is the partner you choose to go through
life with.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Oh, it's massive.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So important is that to your own personal joy and peace?
Speaker 4 (13:55):
I think it's massively important. And when we wrote the
marriage devotional are goal was to not paint because I
think we've all read books on marriage that are unrealistic
and like trying to like pretend that perfection is achievable,
but that's not going to happen. We we deal with
each other. We're broken. We all have, you know, shadow
sides and all that and pain and family of origin stuff,
(14:17):
and that's difficult. But I think accepting that that we're
gonna we're gonna grow together, that we can make progress,
which is all that God wants from us, that we
just take a step forward. You know, he sees us
as little kids. And I think to the extent that
we can have compassion and empathy and curiosity. So for
Jenny and I think we've discovered that when maybe she's
(14:37):
seeing a strong emotional reaction to me or vice versa,
and we can, instead of being matching that energy, instead
to be curious and go, oh, I wonder where that's
coming from. That's not normally had any response to something
like that, and and come from a place of curiosity
and wonder and empathy, and that our connection can can maintain.
(14:57):
What my counselor likes to say is hydration. You know,
we all know what I like it's like to have
dry skin. We put lotion on. Well, our marriages are
our relationships can get dehydrated, and so what sort of
moistens the bond or keeps it hydrated thus not cracking
and not painful. Is is of course love, languages, time spent,
(15:20):
questions that are asked, little little thoughtful things, And I
think whatever we can do to grow and to take
a step forward in our relationship, it's just going to
bring blessing to our lives as well.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
What do you do, though, pastor, I guess when your
partner reacts a certain way and you're not curious at all,
and you really don't care. It's probably not good, huh.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
I think the biblical word would be repentance, change your mind,
you know, And I think it is really important. And
I try and point out like we're not always going
to feel like doing the right things right. I don't
oft I feel often like a Taco bell drive through
and not a kale salad. But I'm going to feel
afterwards so much better when I do what I don't
feel like doing. And I like how C. S. Lewis
(16:02):
said that worship, when we worship God, it's not a
feeling that we express through an action. It's an act
of obedience that oftentimes develops feelings on the back end.
So in the Book of Ephesians, Paul says husbands love
your wives. He never says, feel like loving your wife.
And you know, we talk to people sometimes to go, oh,
(16:22):
I just didn't I fell out of love or I
just didn't feel like doing it. It's like, well, you
can choose to do what you don't feel and oftentimes
you'll you'll get the feeling on the back end as
a gift.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
What else do you have that can you lend to
people in that moment that it's that moment? What else
could you offer to people as advice when they're feeling
terrible but then there's someone else who needs help, or
there's someone else who wants their attention. That that moment
where you just feel so down and you don't feel
like doing anything else but balling up and crying, and
(16:52):
why isn't everybody feeling sorry for me?
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
What do you advise in that moment to get them
to that obedience? Talk about?
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Well, two things. First of all, that's relatable. We all
have days where we're just having pity party parties and
no one knows the troubles I've seen and all the rest.
I think a lot of times we have to do
the exact opposite of what we're feeling. You know, you
feel like pulling the covers over your head. That's what
it's most important to get out and take a walk,
take a run, turn your phone off and get in nature.
(17:21):
I think one of the things, especially as we live
lives in urban areas, we're created to crave creation. So
people get better in hospitals even if they have a
view of a tree outside the window, faster and they
take less medicine than if they're in a self contained environment.
So I think we can choose to get around animals,
we can get around nature. Adam and Eve lived in
(17:43):
the Garden of Eden, and there's a certain awe that
comes from being in the midst of a park. And
they say that you have higher levels of empathy, generosity, creativity,
and lower levels of stress after you've done something that
induces awe. And this is a psychology Todays study. They
said all comes from a religious service. Or go to church,
(18:03):
or listen to worship music or a Christian podcast right,
or go to a museum and look at painting you
could have met. You're gonna walk away feeling awe. There's
a sense of transcendence. I mean you're looking at Louis
the fourteenth bedroom set. I mean it's like you're like, well,
that's incredible of some of the paintings, sculptures, but then
also being in nature. So I think on our low moments,
we can do either do something good for ourself or
(18:26):
do something that's good for others. And they spell joy, Jesus, others, yourself,
And when we flip it and put ourselves first, we
don't experience joy. But when it's God first and then
other people then us, I think we actually get to
tap into something better than just our own happiness.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
That's amazing, And you know it's true anyone.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I mean, I love being out in nature, and we
were just in Arkansas even and for us living in
New York City sometimes it's difficult, and I do feel
a little oppressed. And then the moment I get out
and I see rolling hills and green grass and trees,
like my whole mood lifts and changes. So that speaks
(19:04):
so to me, and I think that that, yes, when
you're feeling sad or low like for us runners, I've
always said running has been my therapy. I've obviously also
sought therapy, but running is just that moment where you're
forced to push through pain to do something you don't
want to do. Sometimes it sounds counterintuitive, but anyone who
(19:25):
runs nos a lot of the times you're running and
you want to stop, but you do it anyway, and
it's when you finish that's when you feel that moment.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
So I totally get that.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
When we were preparing to release the book Blessed Aspiraling,
my publisher had said, do you want to do a
book too, or we could do some signings at some
independent bookstores around the country. And we had this idea
to attach run clubs to it, which is how I
met your friend, Nikki, because I thought to myself, number one,
I'm going to have to get an exercise on the
road anyway, and I'd rather do it for work than
(19:56):
just do it for leisure. And I thought it would
be a fun experience to get to meet some our
readers who over the years have read our books, and
it ended up being one of the most rewarding experiences
of my life. We started in Dallas, ended in Brooklyn,
and we had seven cities, seven runs, seven days. Every
day we would do a signing and then anybody that
wanted to we would just go to a three mile
social run with them. And the amount of like meeting Nikki,
(20:18):
talking to her, hearing her story. My daughters were with us,
my wife ran with us, my son ran with us,
and then getting to meet someone who a woman in
the Brooklyn run said, I haven't run since my divorce.
It was always something I did with my ex husband
and I haven't been able to go there. But when
I saw this, I felt like this could be my
catalyst to run again, and so she got to go
out and run, and her meeting other people and saying
this was a big deal for me to conquer that fear.
(20:40):
We met someone who was going through grief, and I
felt stuck and stagnant. And I think sometimes when we're grieving,
we feel like, why she just eat the ice cream
and just stay home, But we end up feeling worse
because of those things. So getting out and running. We
saw two people at to Houston Run who they became
best friends that night, and they were both left handed.
They were both astrophysicists, and they both were tennis players
(21:01):
who didn't have tennis partners. And so by the end
of night they're like exchanging phone numbers. They're going to
play tennis and be left handed and do astrophysics. And
it was just one of those neat community things of
running together. And I kept telling the people, I can't
run your race for you, but I can run it
with you. And I think when we remember we're not alone,
other people are going through hard things and let's just
(21:22):
keep running, it's a great metaphor for life.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
You are speaking our language.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yes, running has saved us more times than we could
even care to share three time.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, at times we've been running from people.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
That is true.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
We have.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Blessed are you?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
You recently posted Pastor Levi something on Instagram and I
wanted you to explain it because it caught my attention
and I wanted to know.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I wanted to go deeper with you.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
You posted this quote you don't need to try harder,
you need to trust more.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Well, I know for me, I tend to have a
really unhealthy relationship with myself and it's all performance. I'm
in Enneagram three e NTJ. So I'm so sick that,
like even a birthday, I struggle with not from the
aging process as much as I always I don't feel worthy.
I don't feel like if I if I accomplish, if
(22:29):
I haven't accomplished something, I don't necessarily feel like I
should get a cake. And you know, so I tend
to I find myself even like waiting to open a
present until I feel like I can meet a deadline.
And so I felt like the other day God was
saying to me Levi, I wish you could see you
like I see you, And God was saying I just
love you. You don't need to do anything to earn
(22:50):
my love. You just need to accept my love. And
like the prodigal son didn't earn the party or the robe,
or the ring or the feast, the father just loved him.
And so when I posted that, I was trying to
communicate it's not about what we have to do to
make God happy. I think sometimes religion pushes us into
this mentality where we're always getting angry eyes from God
(23:14):
and he's just saying, what have you done for me lately?
You better make the sure, you better quit cussing, you better,
you know whatever, and when really he just wants us
to love him and be loved by him, and that's
challenging for a striver like me, a doer. And so
I think there's power and surrender power in realizing God
is wanting to give us salvation as a gift, not
(23:36):
as a wage, and we don't need to earn his love.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Do you make a obviously your religious and faith based
in your books, your teachings, and but what do you
or how do you or do you try to at
all try to get people and get a message out
to folks who aren't religious, who are turned off by religion,
not that you're trying to turn them in any way
of form or fashion, but do you make a conscious
(24:00):
effort to make sure your message can be digested by
people outside of the faith world.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Oh yes, I mean that's my goal. And heartbeat is
Jesus changed my life. I was fourteen experimenting with drugs
and alcohol, suicidal, and that's when I met Jesus and
he opened my eyes, gave me love, helped me understand
the power of true relationship with him, and that how
I found that through through scripture and through the church.
(24:29):
And I want everyone to experience that who's hurting and
who's anxious, and who's troubled, and who feels like they're judged,
whether it's through bad decisions they've made or pain they've
gone through. And so my goal is for sure, especially
for people who think, oh, I wouldn't like My favorite
is when I invite someone to church and they say, oh,
(24:50):
the roof would fall down on me if I came
in there, and I go, well, hasn't fallen down on
me yet, you know, And then to say like you
might think you don't like Jesus, but wait till you
meet him. Wait till you mean, wait till you read
what he has to say, what he wants to say
to you. That is powerful. And so my hope would
be to build a bridge to people who especially who
(25:11):
feel like they're outside the church or outside the wall
of God's love.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
And Pastor Levi, for people who don't know your full story.
You have a son, you have four beautiful daughters, Olivia, Daisy, Clover,
and Lenya who passed away, and we talked to you
about her passing in the books you have written since
then for children and for adults to get through grief.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
But did you go into a place of why me?
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I mean, the passing of a child I think is
probably the worst thing any of us could imagine happening.
But anyone else who's gone through something terrible or awful
or unfair or unjust have often said those words, why me?
This isn't fair, and they question their faith and they
question their reason for living. Oftentimes, how did you get
through that? And what do you counsel to people?
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Yeah, I loved when we got to talk about Lenya
because it was her that allowed us to meet. I
wouldn't know you two if it wasn't for Lenya her
going to heaven prompted the writing of Roar Like a Lion,
which is what I was on GMA three promoting, And
you guys were so sweet and you were so obviously
impacted by her story, her life. She was five years old.
(26:18):
She had an asthma attack five days before Christmas. She
died in my arms while I was doing CPR, and
that night we were able to make the incredibly difficult
but important decision to give her corneas and her heart
valves to an organ transplant organization, and they took her
corneas and they gave them to two blind people, and
we found out later those two blind people received site.
(26:41):
And that's the metaphor of the book through the eyes
of a Lion, because her nickname was Lenda Lyon, and
so of course when that happened, and that was thirteen
years ago, so I've had a lot of chance to
grieve and heal my family and I and we miss
her every day when I drive, I drove by her
grave coming to today, and I miss her, but I'm
(27:01):
also looking forward to her because the Bible says in
my father's house are many mansions, and I go to
prepare a place for you, and what ultimately Christianity stands
on is not a set of teachings, but it's the
resurrection of Jesus from the dead, and he promises that
because of his resurrection, we all will share in that
resurrection life. And so Lenya is not thirteen years in
(27:24):
my rearview mirror. Every day as I age and grow,
I'm getting closer to her because she's in my future,
not just my past, because of Jesus. And so for me,
I want to share that with as many people as
I can. And that's what through the Eyes of a
Lion is about. It's facing incredible pain but finding incredible power. Right.
(27:44):
It's also roar like a lion, helping kids process grief.
And so even though there was definitely sad moments, low moments,
grief is powerful and you have to let it run
its course. And so I would have I would run
the gamut of anger and bargain and all of those
different things by lunchtime, but there wasn't as much. Why
(28:07):
I think the anger and all those things, I think
God just met me where I was as I was
honest with him of what I was facing, and I
think what God kind of told me was even if
you knew why, it wouldn't help you. This is going
to be hard no matter what. But I'm with you,
and Linya's with me, and I found great comfort. Especially
(28:30):
I don't know if you guys have watched The Chosen
the Betrayal of Jesus on episodes of TV.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
We haven't seen it. We haven't seen it.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
You have to watch it. It's incredible. It's five there's
five seasons. It walks you through the Gospels and it's
portrayed on screen beautifully. Jonathan Rumy And there's an episode
where Jesus is hanging out with little kids, and the
Bible says little kids loved to be around Jesus, and
the disciples thought they needed to show him off because
they were a nuisance. But Jesus said, let the kids
(28:59):
come to me. And when you watch in the scene,
you see the tenderness and the curiosity, the whimsy. Jesus
makes toys. He's a carpenter, he would make toys for
little kids. It made me feel such a sense of like, Hey,
my daughter's good, she's with she's with God, and I'm
gonna I'm going to see her again.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
It's beautiful. That is so beautiful, so pastor live. How
many books have you written now?
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Nine total. I have one unreleased book that comes out
this fall. That's a book about worry and anxiety for children.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Wow, that is That is a very useful book and
a very much needed book.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Just the way we're all headed.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
We I think so many people have talked about we
have more therapy available than ever before, and more drugs
available than ever before, and yet the suicide rates continue
to rise, depression rates continue to rise. So we very
much look forward to that. And I mean you're just
you're continuing your work through the written word, but also
your pastoral services. You you're in Montana, but you you
(29:58):
actually you have an online people can see you wherever
they are in the world.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Yeah, it's a what a gift. I mean, talk about
a double edged sword. What you just mentioned is so true.
And I think if you look back, literally the hockey
stick up of anxiety and suicide and the iPhone are
literally in in. You know, there's there's there's there's a
negative to the technology. There's a negative to TikTok, there's
a negative to YouTube. There's a pressure that comes from that.
(30:28):
But there's also the good and for for one of
the good things that I've been grateful for is every
time I preach. I've you know, we have this church
in Montana, but every time we preach, there's people listening
in every single state and all across the world because
of YouTube. And so there's the negative, but there's also
the positive of that.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yeah, when you're running again, what's you got a race
on your calendar?
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Oh my gosh, we need to run together. I'm doing it.
We are staff. Every summer we do a staff run.
We call it the Two Snakes Invitational because the first
time we did it, we saw two snakes on the course.
It's a you would love this. It's ten miles, but
you gain two thousand feet of elevation in the first
five and then you come down two thousand feet so
(31:09):
down you're flying because your feet barely shuts the ground
but ups the grind.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Oh where is this?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
We do it in just outside of Whitefish for our staff.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
But that sounds fun.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
You guys got a gut here, we get a run
or all come out to New York and one of
the other.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Right, you have takers for that run. People actually do
that with you out there.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Two snakes Our staff is crazy. They love it, and
we bring in rental saunas and cold plunges so at
the end, at the finish line, we all get in
the cold plun Have you guys gotten into all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I've done a cold plunge a couple of times. Sometimes
Oh my gosh, it can take your breath away and
scare you a little bit.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
But yeah, it's you feel great when you get out,
for sure.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
But managing your breath. I mean, they say that I
have trouble sleeping. They say it resets your kind of
rhythm for sleep, the anxiety, the grit, and also just
the reminder like I can do hard things because i
want to get out of the water, but I'm gonna
breathe my way through. I feel like that's transferable to
other areas of life.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Agreed, Levitt, We are not kidding. Please, please please, when
you are coming to New York, give us a heads up.
We will absolutely plan a run. We'll have you in
studio do the whole thing, but at the very least
we'll get a run in together. You gotta let us
know you got it.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Last time we were training for the Two Snakes last summer,
I was coming back from London and we had a
two day layover in New York and just slowly working
our way west by taking the time change away. We
had started in South Africa and then we ended at
London and New York and then Montana eventually, so each
day two days like to help the time change, you know,
moving that way. But I was I had when I
(32:43):
got home, we had the two snakes. That's so my
final training run was I did nine miles around Central Park.
I did it was like one and a half times
around it.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, did you do the Harlem Hill twice?
Speaker 4 (32:54):
It was Father's Day? Was knowing up it was amazing.
What's your favorite New York run?
Speaker 1 (32:59):
The West Side Highway as our jam. We love it,
we love it. But I also love running over the
Brooklyn Bridge because we're really close to that, so that's
really fun, and then running along Dumbo and all of that.
Just looking back at Manhattan as gorgeous too. But yeah,
there's a ton of beautiful places. We like Central Park.
We just don't get up there that all and.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
We get lost in the park.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
We can't figure it out. Have you run the Golden
Gate Bridge?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
I have run it, just just when I was on
a work assignment my hairstylist and I ran over the
bridge and back.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
It was I love running on bridges.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
That's a very mean too, Brooklyn. I've done the Golden Gate.
I was like trying to think of like what other
like like the I don't know if it would be safe,
but like that Key West One would be fun. That
Race Highway, I don't know, that would be beautiful.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
The Cooper River bridges. They do that in South Carolina.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I ran that race before, although now it's just one bridge,
I think, but I'm showing my age clearly. We need
to run, we need to run together, and we would
love to. In fact, even if it's when your next
book comes out. You're back in New York doing your
press tour, we would love to have you back in.
We'd love to go on a run with you.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
It sounds like a day and then Monte as well.
So thanks for having me on today.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Oh, Pastor Levi Lasco, thank you so much for inspiring us.
It was nice to talk to you more than three
and a half minutes, which was our segment time on
GMA three. Nice to have you to really actually get
to hear you talk about just your beautiful faith and
sharing it with all of us.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
So thank you, have a beautiful day and we will
run with you soon
Well, our next guest here on the INDJ podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
You are very excited about because he is a familiar
face to us. TJ.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
We met Pastor Levi Lusco in September of twenty twenty one.
We had a favorite segment when we hosted GMA three.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
What was that segment?
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It was Faith Friday. And I'm thinking back to September
of twenty twenty one. Oh, what a simpler time it
was for us, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yes, it certainly was.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Oh yes, But we were able to have on faith
leaders every Friday who would lead our viewers into the
weekend with some inspiration, and we certainly took so much
with us as well, and it ended up becoming our
favorite segment. And so yes, I remember you remember Pastor
Levi Lusco. He has a powerful story of how he
(00:53):
became the amazing person he is and I know he's
still becoming. But cool thing as anyone who is a
fan of the podcast, I hope knows that one of
my best friends, we've done one or two podcasts with her.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Nikki Espina.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
She's my running buddy, she's my best friend, and she
happened to go to Brooklyn the other day to go
to a run club that was hosted by none other
than Pastor Levi Lusco, and she said, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I ran into Levi Lusco. He has a brand new
book out.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
It's called and I'm going to give you guys the
title here because I love it. Blessed are the Spiraling,
How the chaotic search for significance can lead to joy
through life's shifting seasons. And she sent me the book
and she said, you gotta listen to this. But also
I got to run with him. I got to run
with Levi's daughter, his wife. It was an inspiring moment,
(01:49):
and so I thought, wow, I didn't First of all,
I didn't know that Pastor Lusco ran and was such
a big runner, and we already had something in common
with him. And then I just thought, let's bring him
on and talk about them. So without further ado, Pastor
Levi Lusco, thanks for being with us today.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Oh my gosh, it's such a joy. I look back
so fondly on meeting you guys back in the day,
and I've always had such warmth in my heart towards you.
And so what a small fun world to collide. I've
tracked with your journey I love watching the runs TJ.
Your hamstring thing. I felt the pain with you. Yeah,
(02:26):
so it's really thank you for having me on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
That's cool to hear. And to your title, can I
get right to that? Blessed are the Spiraling? Now? A
lot of people can relate to that, and I think
about a year and a half ago, we would have
considered ourselves right in the thick of that. Who are
the spiraling? Is that essentially everybody?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
I think sadly it tends to be almost all of
us at some point or another, usually at life's transition moments.
But we all end up spiraling, and not always through
bad things. I mean, we can spiral because of grief.
Of course, a job or career change, a catastrophic crisis
you go through can do it. For me, I went
through a lot of it. The spiral that I talk
(03:08):
about from the perspective of in the book was at
the end of my thirties, kind of that midlife energy.
For whatever reason, so many people when they hit the
apex point of life, the halfway point, there comes a
lot of destabilization. Part of that's necessary so that you
can get rid of what's not important, focus on what
you're supposed to do retool sort of for the second
(03:29):
half of life. But interestingly enough, early life crisis is
actually even more prevalent than a midlife or a later
life crisis. But spiraling comes in all shapes and sizes,
and it can even be weirdly enough, through something good.
You can spiral because of something you always wanted. You
maybe always wanted to be a parent, but then you
have kids and turns out there's complications too it, so, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Things aren't always what they seem. You get that dream
job and then you realize you're still not happy.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
That definitely happened to me.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Where you're in the job that you'd been chasing your
whole life, and then you get there and you think,
why am I still not happy? You talk about midlife
crises in this book, but you say, this isn't about
like getting the sports car or changing who you're married to,
or you know, dressing differently.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
It's actually much deeper than that.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah, I think a lot of times to your point, Amy,
we sort of build up in our heads what an
accomplishment is going to feel like, or what it's supposed
to feel like when we quote unquote arrive Seth Godin
talks about how he always wanted to be a New
York Times bestseller and the day it finally happened, his
assistant called to tell him it had happened, and he
was horrified because he felt nothing. And I think sometimes
(04:44):
we build up what these things are going to feel like,
and they cannot help but disappoint us because you know,
it's just it's different. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
But what I'm trying to communicate is that blessings and
burdens are both heavy, and so they can easily be
mistaken for one for another. And so I think it's
learning not just what we're facing, but how to think
(05:04):
about what we're facing. And I am a person of
faith like you guys, and I love the words of
Jesus and the beatitudes. Blessed are the poor and spirit.
Blessed are those who moarn. Blessed are those who are persecuted,
who are reviled. Now, none of those things we would
consider blessings. We want the lottery scratcher to win. We
(05:25):
want the front parking spot at the gym, which is
hilarious in its own way, that we need the front
row of parking spot before we because Heaven forbid we
work out on the way to working out. Real talk there.
But I think, according to Jesus, the true blessings comes
not when we're getting everything we ever wanted, but in
the difficulty, when we press into Him and we truly
(05:47):
experience the joy that's possible even in the midst of trials.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Can you hit on something a little more, you kind
of scratch the surface there. But this idea, and I'm
sure somebody heard it when you said it, when you
get exactly what you want, you thought it was what
you wanted, and you thought this was the thing that
was going to make you happy, and you were chasing,
and then you get it and you feel nothing.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
What does that mean? I think it means that we
pin our hopes of happiness on things when things don't
really bring happiness. Possessions and status, all of the things
in the world. Jesus said it's possible to gain the
whole world, but lose your soul. The translation I like
for that verse actually means lose your very self, and
(06:27):
we can end up mistakenly thinking that success for whatever
that means in the season of life we're in, is
going to somehow fulfill us and what we are meant
to create, I believe, especially in the second half of life.
But it's true in all of life, is that there
are things that are far more significant than just success,
(06:48):
than being perceived as being important or whatever. But it's
funny even Jesus's disciples struggled with this because here he
is trying to go to the cross come out of
the tomb, and his disciples are arguing about which one
of them's the greatest disciple. And it's so easy to
kind of benchmark ourselves based on do I have more,
have I accomplished more, Do I have more followers? Do
I have more shine or riz or whatever it is
(07:09):
in the world's eyes. And so I think it's it's
learning to recalibrate, learning where to find true significance. And
I think that's the million dollar question.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Pastor LEVI, Man, you what you just said hit so
hard with me, and I'm guessing with TJ as well,
just because as much as I don't think I wanted
to consider my value wrapped up or a part of
or because of what I did for a living, but man,
when it's all taken away, when you're stripped down to
(07:40):
the very bare minimum of who you are and what
counts and what matters. All that stuff that you use
to distract yourself or to fill yourself up or to
make yourself feel important.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
When it all is gone, you are forced to face
what is within.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
And that is so difficult and at times felt like
hopeless in moments. But it's only I think, when you
get to that place where you're forced to face how
we're valuing ourselves and how we value each other. You know,
we you know, just had a very like all in
your face all at once, just avalanche of that.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
But my god, I am a better person because of it.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So I'm hearing what you have to say and it's resonating,
but it's really hard, And how do you even know?
How do you even confront that if you don't have
some explosive thing.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
That happens to you.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
I mean maybe something happens to everyone at some point,
but how do you get to that place of recognition?
Speaker 4 (08:41):
You know, what you're describing is so important. What we
think is going to make us happy is usually not
what truly brings meaning to our lives. If you were
to ask the average person, would you rather have cancer
or win the lottery, like most people are going to hello,
I'd like to win the lottery. Yet most lottery winners
find that it does not enrich their lives in many ways,
(09:04):
can complicate and even destroy their life in the fabric
of their friendships and relationships. And yet almost every cancer survivor,
without question, who comes through the experience says, I have
a greater sense of gratitude, I have a greater sense
of appreciation. I'm more thankful and more grounded. I mean,
Jeremy Renner, who got run over by a fourteen thousand
pounds snowplow, says, when you ask Joe Rogan said are
(09:25):
you better? Have you recovered from that? And he said,
I haven't just recovered. I'm better, I'm one hundred and
fifty percent. I'm more thankful. There are so many gifts.
I'm so grateful for that experience. What is that? That
is the stripping away? He lost everything, thirty eight broken bones, liver, peers, lung, collapsed, brain,
skull crushed, and yet he's coming through saying I'm so
thankful I went through that. You know what you guys
(09:48):
are describing, And in my life grief, lost, death, pain,
And I think for me even my midlife crisis sort
of exposed me to how much of my identity and
ego were connected to youth. Because I was ordained as
a pastor at twenty, and as I kind of pastored
around the world, traveling got opportunities. Every time, it was
(10:09):
always just oh, this young pastor, this young pastor, and
I didn't realize how much of that kind of had
had had led to how I saw me. And I
don't think we know what makes us us until it
gets taken from us, and then we find out if
we were building on sand or rock. And the only
true meaning, as I see it, that actually lasts eternity
is our standing before God, our love from Jesus. And
(10:31):
I think when we build our lives and our relationships
on those things that can't get taken away, then we're
able to go through whatever trials we want, and there's
going to be true Joy.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I'm going back to the title of your book here
you're talking. You called it chaotic. Was a chaotic search
for significance. Go through that part of that we can
all kind of relate to. All Right, we're all searching
for something. Want to be a part of search for
significance makes sense, but explain what we're doing there chaotic.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
So Ronald Rollheiser said that success still feels good in
the second half of life, it just has less to
teach us. Okay, So what we're trying to learn how
to do is to focus less just on what we
do that makes us feel important and what we can
do that actually enriches our lives, which is to help
and to ennoble other people. So the way I talk
(11:31):
about it in the book, because I see life through movies,
we all want to be Luke Skywalker or Princess Leah forever,
but we need in life to graduate to being Obi
wan Kenobi and then eventually to be Yoda. Right. Yoda
spent his life at the Yoda Academy, teaching and distilling
principles of wisdom to help other people. And there's a
(11:52):
beauty in that to not trying to stay forever young
and stay at the top of our game because we
can't do that, but instead too great fully accept that
seasons of life contain God's glory, even if they're not
all the season that we look at as like that's
our my glory days. Right, And so the chaotic search
for significance is as we navigate the shifting seasons of
(12:15):
life and pain and betrayal and confusion and our own
bad decisions too, because part of for me, I know
I'm complicit in my own suffering. Some of my spiraling
is self inflicted, you know, whether expectations or narcissism, that
I struggle with, my own addiction to social media, and
you know that I can't silence those things and just
(12:36):
get out and take a run more often, which is
part of the way running Running has become therapeutic for me,
because there's nothing that comes with you in the chaos
of life when you're out on a run, hopefully, and
and so I think it's learning even when I'm feeling
like I co'm spiraling, to instead say hey, what can
I do? How can I focus? How can I call
(12:57):
and encourage somebody? How can I do something for somebody else?
What can I do good for me and my connection
to my soul, my wife, my kids? And you always
come away from those things better because they're significant. They're
not just the flashy you know, less of the flesh,
less of the eyes, pride of life, steps that the
world wants you to focus on.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
I know that so much of anyone who is a
part of self help, and it's about finding the joy
from within that it's not looking at it from outside
sources or external sources. However, I know that you and
your wife Jenny of twenty one years, have you been
married for twenty one years?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Congratulations first of all, but you all.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Actually have published marriage devotionals and you you actually tell people,
teach people how to have a stronger marriage.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
How important is the partner you choose to go through
life with.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Oh, it's massive.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So important is that to your own personal joy and peace?
Speaker 4 (13:55):
I think it's massively important. And when we wrote the
marriage devotional are goal was to not paint because I
think we've all read books on marriage that are unrealistic
and like trying to like pretend that perfection is achievable,
but that's not going to happen. We we deal with
each other. We're broken. We all have, you know, shadow
sides and all that and pain and family of origin stuff,
(14:17):
and that's difficult. But I think accepting that that we're
gonna we're gonna grow together, that we can make progress,
which is all that God wants from us, that we
just take a step forward. You know, he sees us
as little kids. And I think to the extent that
we can have compassion and empathy and curiosity. So for
Jenny and I think we've discovered that when maybe she's
(14:37):
seeing a strong emotional reaction to me or vice versa,
and we can, instead of being matching that energy, instead
to be curious and go, oh, I wonder where that's
coming from. That's not normally had any response to something
like that, and and come from a place of curiosity
and wonder and empathy, and that our connection can can maintain.
(14:57):
What my counselor likes to say is hydration. You know,
we all know what I like it's like to have
dry skin. We put lotion on. Well, our marriages are
our relationships can get dehydrated, and so what sort of
moistens the bond or keeps it hydrated thus not cracking
and not painful. Is is of course love, languages, time spent,
(15:20):
questions that are asked, little little thoughtful things, And I
think whatever we can do to grow and to take
a step forward in our relationship, it's just going to
bring blessing to our lives as well.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
What do you do, though, pastor, I guess when your
partner reacts a certain way and you're not curious at all,
and you really don't care. It's probably not good, huh.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
I think the biblical word would be repentance, change your mind,
you know, And I think it is really important. And
I try and point out like we're not always going
to feel like doing the right things right. I don't
oft I feel often like a Taco bell drive through
and not a kale salad. But I'm going to feel
afterwards so much better when I do what I don't
feel like doing. And I like how C. S. Lewis
(16:02):
said that worship, when we worship God, it's not a
feeling that we express through an action. It's an act
of obedience that oftentimes develops feelings on the back end.
So in the Book of Ephesians, Paul says husbands love
your wives. He never says, feel like loving your wife.
And you know, we talk to people sometimes to go, oh,
(16:22):
I just didn't I fell out of love or I
just didn't feel like doing it. It's like, well, you
can choose to do what you don't feel and oftentimes
you'll you'll get the feeling on the back end as
a gift.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
What else do you have that can you lend to
people in that moment that it's that moment? What else
could you offer to people as advice when they're feeling
terrible but then there's someone else who needs help, or
there's someone else who wants their attention. That that moment
where you just feel so down and you don't feel
like doing anything else but balling up and crying, and
(16:52):
why isn't everybody feeling sorry for me?
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
What do you advise in that moment to get them
to that obedience? Talk about?
Speaker 4 (17:01):
Well, two things. First of all, that's relatable. We all
have days where we're just having pity party parties and
no one knows the troubles I've seen and all the rest.
I think a lot of times we have to do
the exact opposite of what we're feeling. You know, you
feel like pulling the covers over your head. That's what
it's most important to get out and take a walk,
take a run, turn your phone off and get in nature.
(17:21):
I think one of the things, especially as we live
lives in urban areas, we're created to crave creation. So
people get better in hospitals even if they have a
view of a tree outside the window, faster and they
take less medicine than if they're in a self contained environment.
So I think we can choose to get around animals,
we can get around nature. Adam and Eve lived in
(17:43):
the Garden of Eden, and there's a certain awe that
comes from being in the midst of a park. And
they say that you have higher levels of empathy, generosity, creativity,
and lower levels of stress after you've done something that
induces awe. And this is a psychology Todays study. They
said all comes from a religious service. Or go to church,
(18:03):
or listen to worship music or a Christian podcast right,
or go to a museum and look at painting you
could have met. You're gonna walk away feeling awe. There's
a sense of transcendence. I mean you're looking at Louis
the fourteenth bedroom set. I mean it's like you're like, well,
that's incredible of some of the paintings, sculptures, but then
also being in nature. So I think on our low moments,
we can do either do something good for ourself or
(18:26):
do something that's good for others. And they spell joy, Jesus, others, yourself,
And when we flip it and put ourselves first, we
don't experience joy. But when it's God first and then
other people then us, I think we actually get to
tap into something better than just our own happiness.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
That's amazing, And you know it's true anyone.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I mean, I love being out in nature, and we
were just in Arkansas even and for us living in
New York City sometimes it's difficult, and I do feel
a little oppressed. And then the moment I get out
and I see rolling hills and green grass and trees,
like my whole mood lifts and changes. So that speaks
(19:04):
so to me, and I think that that, yes, when
you're feeling sad or low like for us runners, I've
always said running has been my therapy. I've obviously also
sought therapy, but running is just that moment where you're
forced to push through pain to do something you don't
want to do. Sometimes it sounds counterintuitive, but anyone who
(19:25):
runs nos a lot of the times you're running and
you want to stop, but you do it anyway, and
it's when you finish that's when you feel that moment.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
So I totally get that.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
When we were preparing to release the book Blessed Aspiraling,
my publisher had said, do you want to do a
book too, or we could do some signings at some
independent bookstores around the country. And we had this idea
to attach run clubs to it, which is how I
met your friend, Nikki, because I thought to myself, number one,
I'm going to have to get an exercise on the
road anyway, and I'd rather do it for work than
(19:56):
just do it for leisure. And I thought it would
be a fun experience to get to meet some our
readers who over the years have read our books, and
it ended up being one of the most rewarding experiences
of my life. We started in Dallas, ended in Brooklyn,
and we had seven cities, seven runs, seven days. Every
day we would do a signing and then anybody that
wanted to we would just go to a three mile
social run with them. And the amount of like meeting Nikki,
(20:18):
talking to her, hearing her story. My daughters were with us,
my wife ran with us, my son ran with us,
and then getting to meet someone who a woman in
the Brooklyn run said, I haven't run since my divorce.
It was always something I did with my ex husband
and I haven't been able to go there. But when
I saw this, I felt like this could be my
catalyst to run again, and so she got to go
out and run, and her meeting other people and saying
this was a big deal for me to conquer that fear.
(20:40):
We met someone who was going through grief, and I
felt stuck and stagnant. And I think sometimes when we're grieving,
we feel like, why she just eat the ice cream
and just stay home, But we end up feeling worse
because of those things. So getting out and running. We
saw two people at to Houston Run who they became
best friends that night, and they were both left handed.
They were both astrophysicists, and they both were tennis players
(21:01):
who didn't have tennis partners. And so by the end
of night they're like exchanging phone numbers. They're going to
play tennis and be left handed and do astrophysics. And
it was just one of those neat community things of
running together. And I kept telling the people, I can't
run your race for you, but I can run it
with you. And I think when we remember we're not alone,
other people are going through hard things and let's just
(21:22):
keep running, it's a great metaphor for life.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
You are speaking our language.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yes, running has saved us more times than we could
even care to share three time.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, at times we've been running from people.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
That is true.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
We have.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Blessed are you?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
You recently posted Pastor Levi something on Instagram and I
wanted you to explain it because it caught my attention
and I wanted to know.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I wanted to go deeper with you.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
You posted this quote you don't need to try harder,
you need to trust more.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (22:08):
Well, I know for me, I tend to have a
really unhealthy relationship with myself and it's all performance. I'm
in Enneagram three e NTJ. So I'm so sick that,
like even a birthday, I struggle with not from the
aging process as much as I always I don't feel worthy.
I don't feel like if I if I accomplish, if
(22:29):
I haven't accomplished something, I don't necessarily feel like I
should get a cake. And you know, so I tend
to I find myself even like waiting to open a
present until I feel like I can meet a deadline.
And so I felt like the other day God was
saying to me Levi, I wish you could see you
like I see you, And God was saying I just
love you. You don't need to do anything to earn
(22:50):
my love. You just need to accept my love. And
like the prodigal son didn't earn the party or the robe,
or the ring or the feast, the father just loved him.
And so when I posted that, I was trying to
communicate it's not about what we have to do to
make God happy. I think sometimes religion pushes us into
this mentality where we're always getting angry eyes from God
(23:14):
and he's just saying, what have you done for me lately?
You better make the sure, you better quit cussing, you better,
you know whatever, and when really he just wants us
to love him and be loved by him, and that's
challenging for a striver like me, a doer. And so
I think there's power and surrender power in realizing God
is wanting to give us salvation as a gift, not
(23:36):
as a wage, and we don't need to earn his love.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Do you make a obviously your religious and faith based
in your books, your teachings, and but what do you
or how do you or do you try to at
all try to get people and get a message out
to folks who aren't religious, who are turned off by religion,
not that you're trying to turn them in any way
of form or fashion, but do you make a conscious
(24:00):
effort to make sure your message can be digested by
people outside of the faith world.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Oh yes, I mean that's my goal. And heartbeat is
Jesus changed my life. I was fourteen experimenting with drugs
and alcohol, suicidal, and that's when I met Jesus and
he opened my eyes, gave me love, helped me understand
the power of true relationship with him, and that how
I found that through through scripture and through the church.
(24:29):
And I want everyone to experience that who's hurting and
who's anxious, and who's troubled, and who feels like they're judged,
whether it's through bad decisions they've made or pain they've
gone through. And so my goal is for sure, especially
for people who think, oh, I wouldn't like My favorite
is when I invite someone to church and they say, oh,
(24:50):
the roof would fall down on me if I came
in there, and I go, well, hasn't fallen down on
me yet, you know, And then to say like you
might think you don't like Jesus, but wait till you
meet him. Wait till you mean, wait till you read
what he has to say, what he wants to say
to you. That is powerful. And so my hope would
be to build a bridge to people who especially who
(25:11):
feel like they're outside the church or outside the wall
of God's love.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
And Pastor Levi, for people who don't know your full story.
You have a son, you have four beautiful daughters, Olivia, Daisy, Clover,
and Lenya who passed away, and we talked to you
about her passing in the books you have written since
then for children and for adults to get through grief.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
But did you go into a place of why me?
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I mean, the passing of a child I think is
probably the worst thing any of us could imagine happening.
But anyone else who's gone through something terrible or awful
or unfair or unjust have often said those words, why me?
This isn't fair, and they question their faith and they
question their reason for living. Oftentimes, how did you get
through that? And what do you counsel to people?
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Yeah, I loved when we got to talk about Lenya
because it was her that allowed us to meet. I
wouldn't know you two if it wasn't for Lenya her
going to heaven prompted the writing of Roar Like a Lion,
which is what I was on GMA three promoting, And
you guys were so sweet and you were so obviously
impacted by her story, her life. She was five years old.
(26:18):
She had an asthma attack five days before Christmas. She
died in my arms while I was doing CPR, and
that night we were able to make the incredibly difficult
but important decision to give her corneas and her heart
valves to an organ transplant organization, and they took her
corneas and they gave them to two blind people, and
we found out later those two blind people received site.
(26:41):
And that's the metaphor of the book through the eyes
of a Lion, because her nickname was Lenda Lyon, and
so of course when that happened, and that was thirteen
years ago, so I've had a lot of chance to
grieve and heal my family and I and we miss
her every day when I drive, I drove by her
grave coming to today, and I miss her, but I'm
(27:01):
also looking forward to her because the Bible says in
my father's house are many mansions, and I go to
prepare a place for you, and what ultimately Christianity stands
on is not a set of teachings, but it's the
resurrection of Jesus from the dead, and he promises that
because of his resurrection, we all will share in that
resurrection life. And so Lenya is not thirteen years in
(27:24):
my rearview mirror. Every day as I age and grow,
I'm getting closer to her because she's in my future,
not just my past, because of Jesus. And so for me,
I want to share that with as many people as
I can. And that's what through the Eyes of a
Lion is about. It's facing incredible pain but finding incredible power. Right.
(27:44):
It's also roar like a lion, helping kids process grief.
And so even though there was definitely sad moments, low moments,
grief is powerful and you have to let it run
its course. And so I would have I would run
the gamut of anger and bargain and all of those
different things by lunchtime, but there wasn't as much. Why
(28:07):
I think the anger and all those things, I think
God just met me where I was as I was
honest with him of what I was facing, and I
think what God kind of told me was even if
you knew why, it wouldn't help you. This is going
to be hard no matter what. But I'm with you,
and Linya's with me, and I found great comfort. Especially
(28:30):
I don't know if you guys have watched The Chosen
the Betrayal of Jesus on episodes of TV.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
We haven't seen it. We haven't seen it.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
You have to watch it. It's incredible. It's five there's
five seasons. It walks you through the Gospels and it's
portrayed on screen beautifully. Jonathan Rumy And there's an episode
where Jesus is hanging out with little kids, and the
Bible says little kids loved to be around Jesus, and
the disciples thought they needed to show him off because
they were a nuisance. But Jesus said, let the kids
(28:59):
come to me. And when you watch in the scene,
you see the tenderness and the curiosity, the whimsy. Jesus
makes toys. He's a carpenter, he would make toys for
little kids. It made me feel such a sense of like, Hey,
my daughter's good, she's with she's with God, and I'm
gonna I'm going to see her again.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
It's beautiful. That is so beautiful, so pastor live. How
many books have you written now?
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Nine total. I have one unreleased book that comes out
this fall. That's a book about worry and anxiety for children.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Wow, that is That is a very useful book and
a very much needed book.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Just the way we're all headed.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
We I think so many people have talked about we
have more therapy available than ever before, and more drugs
available than ever before, and yet the suicide rates continue
to rise, depression rates continue to rise. So we very
much look forward to that. And I mean you're just
you're continuing your work through the written word, but also
your pastoral services. You you're in Montana, but you you
(29:58):
actually you have an online people can see you wherever
they are in the world.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Yeah, it's a what a gift. I mean, talk about
a double edged sword. What you just mentioned is so true.
And I think if you look back, literally the hockey
stick up of anxiety and suicide and the iPhone are
literally in in. You know, there's there's there's there's a
negative to the technology. There's a negative to TikTok, there's
a negative to YouTube. There's a pressure that comes from that.
(30:28):
But there's also the good and for for one of
the good things that I've been grateful for is every
time I preach. I've you know, we have this church
in Montana, but every time we preach, there's people listening
in every single state and all across the world because
of YouTube. And so there's the negative, but there's also
the positive of that.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yeah, when you're running again, what's you got a race
on your calendar?
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Oh my gosh, we need to run together. I'm doing it.
We are staff. Every summer we do a staff run.
We call it the Two Snakes Invitational because the first
time we did it, we saw two snakes on the course.
It's a you would love this. It's ten miles, but
you gain two thousand feet of elevation in the first
five and then you come down two thousand feet so
(31:09):
down you're flying because your feet barely shuts the ground
but ups the grind.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Oh where is this?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
We do it in just outside of Whitefish for our staff.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
But that sounds fun.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
You guys got a gut here, we get a run
or all come out to New York and one of
the other.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Right, you have takers for that run. People actually do
that with you out there.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Two snakes Our staff is crazy. They love it, and
we bring in rental saunas and cold plunges so at
the end, at the finish line, we all get in
the cold plun Have you guys gotten into all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I've done a cold plunge a couple of times. Sometimes
Oh my gosh, it can take your breath away and
scare you a little bit.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
But yeah, it's you feel great when you get out,
for sure.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
But managing your breath. I mean, they say that I
have trouble sleeping. They say it resets your kind of
rhythm for sleep, the anxiety, the grit, and also just
the reminder like I can do hard things because i
want to get out of the water, but I'm gonna
breathe my way through. I feel like that's transferable to
other areas of life.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Agreed, Levitt, We are not kidding. Please, please please, when
you are coming to New York, give us a heads up.
We will absolutely plan a run. We'll have you in
studio do the whole thing, but at the very least
we'll get a run in together. You gotta let us
know you got it.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Last time we were training for the Two Snakes last summer,
I was coming back from London and we had a
two day layover in New York and just slowly working
our way west by taking the time change away. We
had started in South Africa and then we ended at
London and New York and then Montana eventually, so each
day two days like to help the time change, you know,
moving that way. But I was I had when I
(32:43):
got home, we had the two snakes. That's so my
final training run was I did nine miles around Central Park.
I did it was like one and a half times
around it.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, did you do the Harlem Hill twice?
Speaker 4 (32:54):
It was Father's Day? Was knowing up it was amazing.
What's your favorite New York run?
Speaker 1 (32:59):
The West Side Highway as our jam. We love it,
we love it. But I also love running over the
Brooklyn Bridge because we're really close to that, so that's
really fun, and then running along Dumbo and all of that.
Just looking back at Manhattan as gorgeous too. But yeah,
there's a ton of beautiful places. We like Central Park.
We just don't get up there that all and.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
We get lost in the park.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
We can't figure it out. Have you run the Golden
Gate Bridge?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
I have run it, just just when I was on
a work assignment my hairstylist and I ran over the
bridge and back.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
It was I love running on bridges.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
That's a very mean too, Brooklyn. I've done the Golden Gate.
I was like trying to think of like what other
like like the I don't know if it would be safe,
but like that Key West One would be fun. That
Race Highway, I don't know, that would be beautiful.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
The Cooper River bridges. They do that in South Carolina.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I ran that race before, although now it's just one bridge,
I think, but I'm showing my age clearly. We need
to run, we need to run together, and we would
love to. In fact, even if it's when your next
book comes out. You're back in New York doing your
press tour, we would love to have you back in.
We'd love to go on a run with you.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
It sounds like a day and then Monte as well.
So thanks for having me on today.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Oh, Pastor Levi Lasco, thank you so much for inspiring us.
It was nice to talk to you more than three
and a half minutes, which was our segment time on
GMA three. Nice to have you to really actually get
to hear you talk about just your beautiful faith and
sharing it with all of us.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
So thank you, have a beautiful day and we will
run with you soon
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