February 19, 2025 • 52 mins
We’re joined today by Jessica Moorhouse who started out as a blogger, looking for a creative outlet and way to hold herself accountable, and is now a financial counselor, speaker, and host of her own podcast- More Money. She is also the author of the new book, “Everything But Money: The Hidden Barriers Between You and Financial Freedom”. Jessica is all about providing easy to understand advice, delivered in a non-judgemental way, and she believes that there’s a lot of stuff that gets in the way of us being able to achieve our financial goals. Maybe most folks already know how to invest, but what they need is help with the trauma from their upbringing!? Maaaybe we even get into our own money stories from way back when, back when we were little kids and how that shaped our personal views of money… we get into all of that and more during our conversation today!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Hat of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're talking about breaking the hidden barriers to financial
freedom with Jessica Morehouse.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yeah, we're joined today by Jessica Morehouse, who Okay, So
she started out as a blogger. She was looking for
a creative outlet and a way to hold herself accountable
with her finances, and she's now a financial counselor.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
She's a speaker and host of her.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Own podcast, More Money. She is also the author of
the new book Everything But Money, The Hidden Barriers between
You and Financial Freedom. And Jessica is just all about
providing easy to understand advice delivered in a non judgmental way.
And she believes that there is a lot of stuff
that gets in the way of us being able to
achieve our financial goals. So yeah, maybe most folks already
(01:02):
know how to invest, but what they need is help
with a trauma, maybe from their upbringing. That's just one
of the topics we're hoping to cover today with Jessica.
Thank you for coming on How to Money.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Thank you for having me. Are you ready to talk
about your trauma?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Joel, Liz, I'm not. I've been on earthing in for
many years Jessica, So we no need to go there
on this episode.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I don't think, Yeah, we don't have enough time.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
That is exactly right. That's exactly right. Our first question
to everyone who comes on, though, is what do you
like to splourge on? Because Matt and I we like
to spend a good bit of money on good craft beer.
But hey, we're still doing the smart thing, saving and
investing for our futures. What is that splurge item for you?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I'd say in the past couple years, I do like
an expensive cocktail, and they can be really expensive where
you live in Toronto, like twenty bucks.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Cool, and that's an expensive drink.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
I know it's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
You're like, that's a meal, but you're like, but it's
also a delicious cartini. So yeah, I like a goodtail.
Martiniz bougie ridiculous. Yeah, I love Martini's. I go to ginright,
you want to hear my newest take on the Gin
Martini is typically to make it.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Dirty, beelling everyone who listen.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
So I've only told you I made it for Kate
and I the other night. So typically if you make
it dirty, So yeah, the olive uh, we didn't have olives,
but we had some capers in our fridge, and so
I and the shaker. I'm a shaker, not a stir
for two martinis. Did a couple spoons of capers in
there with some of the brine, shook it, strained it
over a little sieve to clean it out and filter
(02:27):
it in the cocktail. Oh my goodness. Yeah, so stinking good.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So I'm not sure if you like yours dirty or not.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
I despise.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I tried a dirty martini because it is. It sounds classier,
and I'm like, this is disgusting. I'm just not into olive.
So I'm a with the twist, always with the twist.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Okay, fair enough, Well, there's a nice little lemon aromatic
that you get with that. Man, when did we Maybe
we should start like a whole like subhow to Money,
where we do cocktails instead of Oh.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
My gosh, I would listen craft beer.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Jessica, let's talk about your book everything. I was almost
going to say everything but the money, but no, everything
but money. You admit in the introduction to your book
that the reason you wanted wealth was to be seen
to be loved. Can you tell us about that realization,
because I'm curious how common is it for folks to
build wealth in order to maybe attempt to soothe some
(03:19):
of those hidden emotions and some of that past pain.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I mean, we can look to some of the interesting
billionaires out there right now that keep on doing some
interesting things with their money instead of I don't know,
sharing the wealth and helping people in need, and just
instead of buying really expensive yachts. So yeah, I did
not expect to write this book in a way that
it kind of became where I share a lot of
my own personal story. When I got this book deal,
(03:45):
I kind of pitched it as a yeah, I'm going to,
you know, help readers kind of discover their money story
and the relationship with money, help them, And it just
naturally how I wrote the book. It really was from
intro all the way to the end. I did it
in sequence, and I've never written a book before, did
not know the right or wrong way to do it.
I just started writing and it just kind of started
(04:06):
flowing out of me. The intro was like, all right,
this is what I'm thinking, And it was true that
it was the winter of twenty twenty two. I was
supposed to go back home to Vancouver to visit my
family for the holidays, and I got sick with COVID.
It was my first time having COVID, and it was brutal,
and I isolated for my husband because he had not
gotten it and I didn't want to get him sick.
(04:28):
And so I had a lot of time on my
own with my deep dark thoughts. And what I realized
was I was so not happy with my life, even
though on the outside it looked absolutely fine. But I
have a very loud inner critic, and no matter what
I achieved, whether it was in my career or with
(04:49):
my money, I never felt satisfied. I was always comparing
myself to I'll find someone who was doing better than
me and compare myself to that person's journey, even though
we're on different paths. Don't know why I'm comparing myself
to that person, and then just feel like crap, because
I'm like, well, you didn't do this. Though you didn't
do this, you could be doing better, you should work harder,
et cetera, et cetera. And so I realized, actually, I've
(05:11):
always had this thought in the back of my mind
that I should be doing better or more and there's
someone else doing more than you, and you know, you
should feel so bad about that. And I realized that
I've been kind of on that path for since childhood,
and I had to do some introspection on why is that?
Why do I feel not good enough? And there's many reasons.
(05:33):
You know, part of it was being a middle child,
and you know, kind of falling into that role of
being overlooked because I had a younger sister who you know,
needed a lot of attention when she was younger. Obviously,
then there was my older sibling and I just kind
of faded into the background because that's that was my
coping mechanism instead of asking for what I needed, which
(05:56):
was more attention, more equality, care and things like that.
And the other component was I also was just the
worst picker of friends. I would gravitate towards certain people
with certain energies, people that had, you know, a lot
of confidence or just were more extroverted, because I'm typically,
you know, pretty introverted, and these people would also what
(06:17):
I also realized after doing some therapy, I was very
attracted to people with specific types of trauma that would
have high highs low lows very inconsistent people. You know,
I talk about attachment theory in the book, and for
a long time, I was always attracted to people who
were avoidance. So people that you know, show you a
(06:38):
lot of care and love and then back off, and
it's just like that cat and mouse kind of chase.
And I loved it until I'd always get burned and
then I'd try to find new friends that were similar.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
And so I was dealing with.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
All this stuff and figuring this out about myself, and
that was kind of where I wanted to start with
the book, to just be like, hey, I've been doing
this kind of money expert thing, content creator thing in
financial education for over a decade and I am not perfect,
and I've got my wounds, and I have a very
complicated relationship with money. So let's go on this journey together,
(07:11):
because I think we've all got our stuff that we
need to work through.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Most people like in a lot of the things you
just described, whether it's you know, childhood issues, middle child.
I just talked a lot to get attention. Now was
a middle child too, but it and it worked. But
there are we don't necessarily associate some of the things
that you mentioned not having a hard time finding great
friends with maybe the end result of an awkward relationship
(07:37):
with your money or a bad relationship towards spending, saving,
or investing. How do you think about bad habits maybe
versus unexplored emotions and how those impact how we handle money.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, I think when you start doing that digging of
figuring out what your kind of past is and who
you are at your core, and then some of the
traumas that you've experienced or witness that have impacted you
that you haven't healed from. We can use multiple things
to try to soothe ourselves, to regulate our emotions to
make us feel better. Sometimes that's food, Sometimes that's alcohol,
(08:12):
Sometimes that's drugs, Sometimes that's fitness. But sometimes it's money.
And that really doesn't get that much attention. But I
mean I, as a financial counselor who you know has
worked with a number of people, especially with spending issues
or they're in debt, I would find over and over
you're not a bad person, or you're You didn't get
into debt because you didn't know what you were getting
yourself into. You didn't you had the financial knowledge to
(08:36):
not do that, but you did it anyway.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Why is that.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
It's because you were using money as a coping mechanism
to try to soothe yourself or try to heal, because
you know, whenever you buy something, you feel a little
bit better about yourself, You get a little bit boost
of confidence that dopamine hit, but then that goes away,
and so you need to repeat the cycle over and over.
But it doesn't have to be just spending. It could
be the opposite. And that's kind of where I fell
(09:00):
into a little bit, especially in my twenties, which was oversaving, underspending,
not taking care of myself and kind of not being
a martyr exactly, but finding that I liked the control
of I felt more in control when I was very
(09:23):
strict with my budget and said no a lot, because
I'm like, there's some pride to me, like, no, I'm
not going to do that because I'm doing something more
important with my money instead of going out with friends
to dinner or something like that, which also isn't healthy
because you should never feel better or worse depending on
how you spend or don't spend your money. You need
to have some balance, and I think most people fall
(09:45):
into some sort of extreme and that's never a healthy
place to live in long term?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Can you speak to the specific childhood money memories that
we might have that inform our relationship to money as.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
A Yeah, I can share mine, but I'd be curious
what yours are. If you've ever been asked that before,
because that's the most interesting thing I keep getting asked
on an interviews. Hey, let's talk about the money store,
because like so many people are, like, this got me
thinking about mine. No one's ever asked me that. I've
never thought about it. So I kind of start off
the book by let's explore how you feel about money,
(10:21):
and let's go back to your first money memory, which
was your first interaction with money?
Speaker 4 (10:25):
And guess what?
Speaker 3 (10:26):
It usually happens very early in childhood. For me, it
was four years old, and I've always had a relationship
with money that was always very tightly connected to shame.
And I always wondered, why is that? Why do I
always feel so ashamed about who I am and where
I'm at financially, even when I'm in a decent place.
(10:46):
And then I looked back at, Okay, what was my
first money memory? And then it just you know, came
to me while I was writing, like, oh, well, there
was the gumball at the grocery store.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
I was kid at the grocery store with my mom.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Loved going because if I behaved, she would treat me
to a donut. And I also loved, you know, walking
in the bulk aisle just to take a look at
all the different candy. But I knew I wasn't supposed touch.
But then one day I'm like, ah, she's not looking,
and what's the harm. Adults, you know, Papa, sample into
their mouths all the time. I'm gonna steal a gumball,
so I did. Was way too big for me to
(11:17):
chew at four years old, so I just like kept
it in my cheeks like a squirrel hoarding nuts. And
when we're walking to the parking lot, because she hadn't
really noticed the exo, so I guess hiding my face,
she popped the trunk put the groceries in, and then
she saw him. I also, I was completely blue in
the face, just like from the sticky blue gumball all
over because I.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Was a sticky kid. And she's like, what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
And she you know, I have this vivid memory, and
of course she's like, I do not remember this at
all I'm like, course, not is a core memory for me,
not for you. But she dragged me back to the
grocery store and made me spit it out and said,
we don't steal things. You cannot do this. We have
to pay for things like this. And the other kind
of component besides feeling ashamed for stealing was I also
felt like we can't look like we cannot afford something,
(12:01):
because there's a lot of shame in looking like you're poor,
and there still is. We have a lot of judgment
on people who are low income, which is terrible. And
so there's a lot of kind of layers of shame
and money, or the lack of money that I've brought
from that first interaction as a child into adulthood.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
So with that, I want to ask you both, do.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
You either can you think of what maybe your first
money memory might be.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Oh, yeah, we've talked about here on the show. I
would say I had a fairly surprisingly healthy upbringing when
it came to money being paid for the things that
I worked for. And maybe you would say that that's
not healthy, but it's certainly instilled a sort of a
work ethic. You get money and you are a good
manager of your money. I don't know all the kind
of things that we talk about, at least here on
(12:49):
the show.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, mine, I've talked about as well. Far less healthy.
And my parents had a lot of financial struggles when
I was a kid in a really impressiable aile age.
They argued about money and then eventually we had a
car repossessed, my dad lost lost a job, and they
were just kind of this cascading like sequence of events
(13:13):
in the personal finance space in our family's life that
left an indelible impression on me. And so it's almost
like I think, like the Men in Black memory eraser stick.
I don't remember any money things before that, but that
is like my distinct recollection of money and it's big
impact on me. Yeah, I've had to work that stuff
(13:33):
out in adulthood for sure, to have like a healthy
relationship with money and not just kind of a scarcity attachment.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Yeah, and that's easy.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
I mean I have definitely battled scarcity, and that's so
common to so many people. I encounter battle scarcity, and
it's because they either personally experienced that as a child,
or they witnessed their parents kind of experiencing that, or
I even talk about in the book about generational trauma
where you can inherit it and maybe it's all maybe
(14:00):
it's all of those things combined. And that was kind
of my experience, which makes it very difficult to try
to have an abundance mindset manifest You're like, yeah, that's
not as easy for me as it could be for you.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Sure, So do you think that folks don't take enough
time to I guess connect some of those memories, some
of those narratives that we've all experienced as kids too.
How does that we currently handle our finances? Oh?
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Absolutely, Like that's been the interesting thing.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
The book as we're recording, has been out for about
three weeks, and the feedback I've gotten from so many people,
all these emails and dms, is oh my god. I've
never thought there was a connection between my childhood trauma
and my money, But now that you mention it, it
makes so much sense. And that's exactly what I wanted
is for people to make those connections because often the
(14:48):
especially with you know, traditional personal finance advice and some
of the loud voices in the space, the old voices
in the space that you made know who I'm talking
about they put the blame on the individual. You're not
doing this, you're not working hard enough, you're not motivated enough,
you're not smart enough, you're bad for doing this with
your money. And that's not the case. I find when
(15:10):
I work with individuals. Something else is going on. There's
some reason they keep on messing up, and they know
they're messing up and they.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Don't want to, but they keep doing it. And it's
not because.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
It's also not a great motivator for most people right
a long term you really suck. It's not usually one
of those things that says, you know what, yeah I do,
let me go and like improve myself.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah, Like if someone says, wow, you really put on
some pounds, does that motivate you to go the dead? No,
it makes you feel really bad and you probably will
just cry about it. Like that's my experience anyway, If
someone you know, shames me in that way, it doesn't
motivate me to improve my situation. But unfortunately, that's a
lot of the kind of messaging and the tone out
there is using that tactic of shame. And that's why
(15:52):
I really want to be gentle in my book, because
I'm not super gentle with myself sometimes in my mind,
but I want to have a space where people can
be vulnerable with themselves in this book and also feel
guided by someone who was like, there's no shame or
blame in this book. You're not going to hear that
tone of voice at all here.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So it sounds like we probably need to have like
think through those stories that inform our money beliefs. We
probably need to assign some specific emotions to kind of
what we went through and how we now maybe relate
to money, and then what do we do with that,
Like we've got the feelings maybe outlined, We've got some
(16:31):
of our actual kind of childhood data infused into that.
Where do we go from there?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
When you start understanding your past, your kind of origin
story with money, how it's kind of continued as you
get into adulthood, and then start putting labels on some
of the feelings that you have about money. And there's
a whole chapter on the different feelings. I mean, there's
a ton of feelings out there, obviously, but the main
ones that I see people connect with money is shame, guilt, fear, anxiety, envy,
(17:01):
and despair. Those are kind of the most common ones
when you kind of make all those connections. Now you're
at a place where you can start kind of writing
what your current money story is, and that's the narrative
that you've been telling yourself up until now about you
and money, what you can and cannot achieve, what's your
potential or you know, just some of the things that
are holding you back, some of the behaviors and habits,
(17:25):
values that you've maybe adopted from your childhood that you
you know, I never noticed I did that, or the
things that actually because of your childhood, you went the
complete opposite direction and rebelled against maybe what you saw
your parents do, and so that's why you do this
and this, which maybe also isn't healthy. Again, I find
a lot of people that are struggling with their relationship
(17:48):
with the money. It's because they're stuck in some sort
of extreme and we want to come to a place
that makes more sense. You're more logical, rational, less emotional
about money, so you can start taking better care of
your money and yourself. But you need to be able
to outline and really kind of figure out what is
the blueprint I've been using with my money up until now,
so we can see what do we want to change.
(18:09):
How can we renovate this house so it's a better
representation of where I actually want to be with my money.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
You mentioned rebelling against maybe the stories, or it's maybe
even some of.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
The values that were explicitly taught to you.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
As a kid within your family. Like, I think it's
understandable why we tend to adopt those values in those stories, right,
Like we're raised by parents who hopefully love us, and
hopefully most listeners they love their parents. Like, it has
a large impact on how you viewed the world. But
for someone listening and they've identified that, you know what,
maybe they didn't handle their finances the best. Aside from that, Like,
(18:46):
I guess what strategies or steps would you recommend for
folks who are looking to essentially rewrite their money story, Like,
how do you go about doing that?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Yeah, I'd say, really lay out, Yeah, what are some
of your feelings, the patterns you're seeing, the habits and behaviors, values,
all that stuff.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Write it all down.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
And I do have some exercises in the book to
kind of ask you some questions so it can kind
of jog your memory. So you can kind of write
down everything and then take a step back to take
a look at what's.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Working in what's not.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Like just the other day, I just had this realization
that I adopted this idea, and my husband is the same.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
He's like, oh yeah, I do that too.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Where I think you were a complete chump or I'm
a complete chump if I buy something that's not on
sale because I was taught or not even directly. I
think I just observed that my mom always bought things
on sale, but never buy anything that is full price
because well, you know, it's being marked up anyway, and
it's not worth that anyway. I'm just gonna wait for
it to be on sale. That's how you know you're
going to get a good deal. Otherwise you're, you know,
(19:46):
being hoodwinked and you know, being paying too much for
that thing.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
I'll tell Joel why he's wrong. I do feel like
you're stepping on my toes right now, Jessica.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Yes, sorry, sorry, sorry sorry, And there's nothing wrong with
the deal. Hey, I still love a good deal. But
I realized there are certain things that I wanted and
could afford, and there was no reason I shouldn't buy it,
and I like felt guilty for even thinking of purchasing
it because it wasn't on sale. That's illogical. That's an
illogical thing to bring with me from childhood to adulthood.
(20:17):
There's so many great things that you could be buying,
especially from like amazing small businesses and you know, artists
and things like that that will never be on sale.
So that means you're limiting yourself from not spending your
money in that way because of this one thing.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
So let's be honest. Sales often give us the permission
to buy something we shouldn't buy it too, so fueling
that consumeristic lifestyle and mindset exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
And so I realized for me, I'm like, that's something
I need to let go of. Or even you know,
when I said my kind of you know, thing that
I like to splurge on is a cocktails.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
I would have never in a million years said that.
In my twenties or even the early thirties, I was
the person that go to a restaurant, look at the
cheapest thing on the menu, and that's what I was
going to get, And that just became a habit. I
didn't been realize I had. It was just so second
nature until I'm like, what if you want to eat
something different, why are you always going for the burger
(21:08):
when you want the chicken or something? And yeah, I
don't know, but it's just like, these are things that
are not serving me and they're holding me back for
maybe some a great experience or something joyful or something nice.
And it's not gonna ruin my retirement, you know, spending
five extra dollars or ten extra dollars when again it's
in my budgets and something that I can fully do.
(21:29):
And so it's really about laying out what's working, what's not,
and then also maybe adding some stuff. What would you
like to include What are you not doing that you've
always wanted to do with your money? And that could
be you know, a lot of people encounter are really
focused on saving, but they haven't really gotten to that
investing component, which is so vital. That is the only
way you're gonna build wealth and achieve those really big
(21:51):
lofty dreams of maybe you know, quitting your job one day,
or retiring early, or just retiring at all. But so
many people are maybe afraid to even get started or
to learn about it because the lessons they maybe learned were, oh, no,
investing's risky, you're going to lose all your money. And
just look at the neighbors. They lost their you know,
investments in the last crash. So don't even bother. Just
put your money in the bank and you know, some
(22:13):
safe investments. And that's something that you may have to
also be like, yeah, we're not going to do that,
and we're going to add in this new component of
we need to invest for our future.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah. It's amazing too how different people grow up in
different ways and so they have completely different money stories,
and yet it takes a lot of kind of going
back in time to figure out what they are, how
they've informed how you live today. We'll talking about that.
We'll talk about actually trauma and how that impacts how
people think about their finances and act with money. We'll
(22:44):
get into more of that with Jessica Morehouse right after this.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Right, we are back from the break speaking with Jessica
Morehouse and Jessica, So before the break, you were kind
of talking about some of the loudest voices in the
personal finance space. It's kind of like when you're talking
about like the blame game a little bit, and you've
got a chapter titled It's not you, it's your trauma.
And there's a quote from that section you say, we
(23:16):
all need to take ownership of the financial decisions we make.
But if those decisions keep driving us into a bigger
debt hole each month and we have no idea why
or how to stop it, we need to consider that
there's something deeper going on. And I almost wanted to
interject earlier, but talk about I guess the balance of
personal responsibility on one hand.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
As opposed to this past hardship that a lot of.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Us have experienced. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
So yeah, there's a couple other parts of that section
that I think are really helpful, just to kind of
always remind yourself, as number one, understanding your money story
and your trauma and how it impacts your financial life
and your financial decisions is not an excuse. It's an explanation,
and a lot of us are just lacking that explanation.
(24:02):
And the other part, which I really love and I
remind myself of this all the time, is you are
not bad with money. And we needed to stop asking
ourselves what's wrong with me and maybe instead start asking
ourselves what happened to me? Because usually we think that
we're doing something wrong because we're you know, I'm dumb.
I'm just bad with money. That's a common thing I hear.
(24:25):
It's not that money is a skill that anyone can learn.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
I do not have.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I did not start from a financial background. I went
to film school. I was an art school kid, a
very artsy school. I went to and then graduated and
knew nothing about money. And it was the Great Recession
two thousand and nine, and I'm like, oh, shoot, how
do I pay off my student loans? How do I
live and pay rent? I have no idea and loan.
I found personal finance blogs, started educating myself. And again,
I was never into science for math that I was
(24:51):
always like English arts. That was kind of my brain
and I was able to learn it and find the
parts that really connected with me. So I believe anyone
can learn anything about money. But with that said, sometimes
things come easier to certain people depending on are you
secure with money or insecure with money? And that's just
to say that did you have was you know, money
(25:14):
kind of represented or a healthy role in your family?
It was, you know, represented as something that this is
a tool that you can do whatever you want with.
It can provide a lot of security and freedom and
it's a good thing, but a lot of us grew
up in households where money wasn't a positive character in
our lives. It was something that it was always holding
(25:35):
us back and forced us to say no a lot.
It was always the reason we couldn't do something instead
of allowing us to do something. And so by better
understanding the role that trauma has with your finances, I
think that can really open the door to get that
explanation that you really need and to kind of go
more into what trauma means. It's just another word for
(25:59):
emotional wound that you have not healed yet, and we
all have them. Unfortunately. It could be really tiny, it
could be really big. There is big T trauma and
little T trauma, and everyone is a different story. And
you can even be traumatized by just witnessing something, not
even experiencing it. And like I mentioned, you could also
inherit it from some of your ancestors. And so there's
(26:21):
a lot of different traumas that you may have inside
you that may be holding you back. And I'm happy
to know you can jump in anytime, because I can
go on and on.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
About that it might be smaller than trauma, but just
I'm thinking about people's different personality types or just abilities
and neurodiversence. Right I'm thinking of my kids and their
birth order and how they have different skills, and sometimes
that skill manifests itself as being really great in school,
(26:52):
and other times it's like, I'm really great socially, but
school's not my strong suit right now, and so something
like ADHD can play a role even in our finances.
I'm thinking about my middle kid right now, and I'm
just like, oh, man, what's this going to look like
for it's going to look her relationship with money is
just going to look different differently than it does for
her older sister, even though they grew up in the
same house, with the same parents, with a lot of
(27:14):
the same money conversations going on. So, how would you say,
because you wrote about this in the book, how are
people who struggle with like ADHD, whether they know it
or not, impacted on the financial front.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, so this is a topic that I've you know,
I think it's great that's becoming a lot more open
in conversation, especially online in the personal finance community. A
lot of content creators, financial content creators have ADHD it's
becoming I'm not sure if it's I kind of talk
about this in the book, whether it's you know, ADHD
is more common than it was, or people are just
(27:44):
being properly diagnosed and there's just more information and data.
But if you do have ADHD, money is going to
be different for you than someone who does not have it,
because you are operating with a different system and you
may need to put some different systems in place so
you can properly manage your money in a way that
makes sense for you. And I also talk about in
(28:05):
the book how there's also a huge link between ADHD
and trauma because they actually share a lot of the
same symptoms.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
So sometimes.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
You know, you may be misdiagnosed with ADHD, but it
may actually be trauma that we haven't dealt with, or
people with ADHD are actually more prone to experience trauma.
So there's a lot of overlap, a lot of connection
between the two. But this is all to say that,
you know, when you are in a you know, you're
(28:37):
a person that can get distracted, or there's there's other
things that are preventing you from just following through when
you're like this is so simple, Why can't you just
do it, It's gonna be harder for you. So you
have to kind of create your own roadmap for how
do I get to the results that I want in
a way that makes sense for me. Because even for me,
like I manage my money differently than a lot of
(28:57):
people because of how my brain works.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
I'm very visual. I like lists.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
And like organizing things, and some other people they're like,
I cannot do it that way. That just does not
make sense for me. And so that's that's definitely something
that I really wanted to put in there. Is everyone's different,
and that's why even though there's so many great there's
so much great you know and free financial education out there, unfortunately,
personal finance is personal and there's no such thing as
(29:23):
a one size fits all strategy for everyone. You have
to kind of take what makes sense for you and
then kind of create your own thing with it.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Can you share some examples? Maybe, so you are a
financial counselor and you've seen a lot of folks who
have a lot of different personalities, backgrounds, ADHD perhaps, and
you said that sometimes it's different systems that need to
be creative, Like literally, what does that look like? I
mean does it conceptually? Is that creating hard boundaries? Practically speaking?
What does that look like?
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:52):
So honestly, when I get approached by someone who has
ADHD and they're looking for financial help, I actually try
to find them a financial professional who specializes in that
or even has ADHD. And there's a few people I
know because I'm like, you want to maybe work with
someone who knows exactly what you're going through. I don't,
and so I want you to find someone who can
(30:12):
help you the best way possible. But for for lots
of other people who more than people, I think I've
encountered our people with trauma, which is actually a little
easier to deal with. Is we need to figure out
what are you having the hardest problem with right now?
And then how can we create systems so you know,
(30:32):
on payday you don't blow through all of your money.
We're making sure we're putting money into savings, we're putting
money aside to pay all of your expenses, we're giving
you some fun money. How can we create these systems?
And you know, for some people, yeah, you can use
a credit card for everything, get those points, build your
credit score, and you're going to be completely responsible with that.
Some people, Yeah, you shouldn't use a credit card for
(30:53):
anything that's not like a fixed bill that you know
exactly how much is going to go on that card
and you can pay it off right away. Everything else,
we need a different system, such as your debit card
or like a prepaid card or something like that, so
we have that kind of guard rail so you don't
know we're spend. So it kind of depends on the
person to see what are you dealing with, what do
we need to kind of change. For example, even for investing,
(31:16):
there are certain people that I'm like, you should not
be a self directed or di win investor. You should
either work with an advisor or a robo advisor. You
need something that's so simple, that's automated that you cannot
touch because you shouldn't touch it.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
It's like, you know yourself and if you are a
terrible baller, you put the bumpers up right so that
you can still hit some pins down even if it
just like goes back and forth across the alley the
whole time. And yeah, so I think that makes a
whole lot of sense, and it's specific to the individual.
And you're right, there are some people who an advisor
makes sense or a robo advisor, And then there are
(31:51):
other people who like uh. And there's some people who
should maybe never ever check their account balance or once
a year at most, because they'd be too inclined to
make a knee jerk decision. And then there are other
people who I don't know, They can look at it
once a week because they're curious, but it's not going
to impact their decision making or their emotions. And one
thing you said to in your book, you said, Eu
Schrapau is not just trauma getting in the way of
(32:13):
smart money decisions. You say, it's just our basic humanity too,
which I don't know makes me feel like we're all
screwed or something that they Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Maybe not all screwed, all screwed up a little bit, Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
All right, Well, no, you highlight a whole whole lot
of different biases that we have and how that essentially
kind of derails what we're able to achieve.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yeah, Like, just being a human is going to make
it harder to be perfect with money. And I've not
met anyone who's perfect with money, but just being a
human and we have these instincts that are helping us
to survive. But a lot of these instincts come from
hundreds of thousands of years ago and they don't apply
to our finances. So you know, one thing I always
bring up is herd mentality because we've all probably experienced
(32:55):
it or have witnessed it where and I feel like
we're seeing that now with like crypto again, is just
everyone just like, oh well, everyone's getting into this. I
don't want to be left behind, So I'm going to
get into this coin as well, and I'm going to
get rich and this is how I'm going to survive.
And then what happens is there's a bubble, it bursts
in your left holding big or something like that. Now,
that instinct made a lot of sense back when we
(33:17):
lived in herds and had to run away from some
sort of danger and animal that was going to attack us.
We had to run as a herd to get away
from the danger. Does not work the same with the
stock market, Like you're just going to do some really
big damage to your finances. And so understanding some of
these biases that we will take as oh well, my
instinct says or my gut says, to do this in finance,
(33:40):
most of the time, you have to do the opposite
to what your instincts are telling you, which is very
difficult to do. You have to be very self aware
of what's going on, how you're feeling, and sometimes don't
do it. I mean almost most of the time, don't
do anything until you've kind of calmed down and don't
like this urge to you know, liquidate your savings because
(34:03):
the you know, everything's collapsing or you know, I'm I'm
sure you're seeing a lot of this. I see a
lot of this in Canada as well, as people are
freaking out because the political situation and there's a lot
of uncertainty and what should I do? Should I pull
out everything? I'm like, God, no, just keep it, stop,
don't touch it. Just don't do what your instincts are saying,
which is runaway. You need to stay in place because
(34:25):
a line is not coming to attack you. It's it's
just you got to just keep calm and carry on
a little.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Bit over inflating the potential reality of political turmoil or
certain situations in our lives. You know, I feel like
we've covered the problem well. But you also talk about
and you offer some of these services but how do
you help people think through if they actually need the
help of a professional to kind of weigh through some
of their past history, their money traumas, and trying to
(34:52):
kind of figure out that what's informed kind of their
current money beliefs, and then how to change whether that's
something they can kind of of pursue on their own.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
I mean, I'm of the belief that everyone should go
to therapy, but we're all going to the dentist, We're
all going to the doctor. We shall also going to
go go cisia therapist. But you know, I do offer
a lot of kind of self guided exercises within the
book to kind of get you started. But I feel
like in most cases, and especially even with just finance
in general, you're probably going to hit a point where
you're like, I need a second pair of eyes or
(35:24):
just some some outside person that can look at what
I've been able to build to be like is this right?
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Did I miss anything?
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Because in so many other areas of our lives, we
usually have someone else looking over our work or just
to check. Like with my book My God, I had
editors and editors and copywriters, and I could not write
a whole book by myself without having someone check my work.
And so we need to see what are what can
we do on our own? And then at what point
do we hit the limit of oh, I can't really
move forward, you know, without some extra help. And so
(35:55):
when it's financial specifics, like I, you know, I just
had a call with someone this morning who was interested
in signing up to my course, and then eventually came
to the point I'm like, you know, I don't think
you need another course. They're a person who kind of
kept on signing up for courses, Like I think you
need a planner. I think you need to hire a
financial planner because all you want to know is do
I have enough for retirement. That's something that's very specific
to you. I don't have all your info. A planner
(36:17):
can help with that, and that's not something maybe you
can feel confident enough to figure that out on your own,
because even if you know there's great calculators and calculations
you can do on your own, sometimes you just need
someone else to do the calculation also and be like, oh, great,
we got the same number.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Okay, great, that's that's all I want.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
And so when it comes to things like trauma and
just some of the kind of internal issues you're dealing with.
There's a lot you can do on your own, but
at a certain point you're probably going to want someone
who actually has a background in mental health to guide
you onto kind of the next phase of your path.
And I say this too because while I was writing
(36:54):
the book, and I've saw, you know, seen a therapist
for a number of years, gosh, probably going back to
I mean consistently since twenty twenty.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
Like most of us, like you see therapist. This is
a lot going on in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
And he was wonderful, But it wasn't until I started
writing this book that I'm like, you know, I still
saw him, but I'm like, you know, we're not really
getting deep. I'm not really sure if this is really working.
So I started to see a couple other different therapists,
mainly just to see what different types of therapy are
out there and how could I describe them for my book.
And then I ended up doing a lot of sessions
with them and doing a lot of work on myself,
(37:28):
and they were able to make me experience breakthroughs I've
never experienced, and connections with myself, my childhood, and my
money that I know I couldn't have done just on
my own.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I think even in the book you mentioned how previously
maybe it was CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, and so, but
I get the impression that you've kind of ventured into
different types. Is there a specific approach that you think
helps folks when it comes to financial issues or does
it depend more on I guess, the individual and what
they're going through.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
I think definitely depends on the individual.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
CBT may be perfect for most people, that's usually kind
of the route that most people I think start, But
if you are dealing with some you know, really heavy
emotional wounds that you can't really figure out, and my
CBT therapist that wasn't really his area of expertise, that's
when I'm like, you know what, I'm going to look
into EMDR. I'm going to look into internal family systems.
(38:23):
I did some research about them, and they are really
specific to trauma.
Speaker 4 (38:26):
I'm like, I'm going to test those out.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
I read a really great book too, especially with internal
family systems, because it's fairly not as well known, but
it's fascinating and I think it's amazing.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
There's a book called No.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
Bad Parts that talks all about it, so you have
a better understanding of what you're getting yourself into. But
doing for me EMDR, which is becoming more common with
trauma treatment. And then IFS. Those were things that previously
I didn't even know about, and those were the things
that really moved the dial for me, especially IFS, which
I would have never thought about, because it is when
(39:00):
you learn about it, it sounds a bit woo woo,
and I'm not woo woo in any like, I just
don't believe in anything like that kind of stuff like
meditation blah. You know, I'm like, can't do it. But
this was just something that really connected with me. I
think largely because I'm a very visual person and it's
all about kind of visualization.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Maybe I'm even going to consider therapy drill go's Like,
you know, we all see Dennis and doctors. Well, jess
get jokes on you because I don't see those guys here.
But maybe I will go and see a mental health professional.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I'm just married to on it for free.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
Oh, I'm sure she loves that.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
We've got a few more questions to get to with
Jessica will gets all that right after this.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Our we're back. We're still talking about the hidden barriers
to financial freedom, breaking through those things. And it is
amazing how much just what we've gone through in our past,
how it goes unexplored, examined, and it's really hard to
change the life and the trajectory of your life when
it remains unexamined. So I think Jessica's bringing out You're
bringing out a lot of great stuff here, Jessica, which
(40:10):
we appreciate. Towards the end of the book, you say something.
You highlight the fact that getting better with money and
actually having more of it can equate to less happiness,
which sounds counterintuitive, and especially with more recent studies coming
out about hey, higher net worth levels of income actually
do tend to increase happiness levels more than we previously thought.
(40:31):
How do you think about the role of money and
happiness and why do you think that more of it
might actually not lead to more happiness.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
So it really depends on where you're coming from. So
there is some you know, there's that study that we
all know. Now, if you have a seventy thousand dollars
income per year, that's your kind of the happiness kind
of limit, and above that you're not going to be happier. Well,
that scientist and another scientist did another study together to
actually kind of expand, and what they really found was
(40:59):
you can increase your happiness with more money only if
you're already happy. But if you're not happy, if you're miserable,
more money is not going to make you less miserable.
It cannot solve that, you know, wound for you. It
cannot heal that for you. Money is just going to
be a band aid. And I think possibly that is
(41:21):
why we see all of these very wealthy individuals accrue
more and more and more, and you're like, why are
they what are they chasing? What are they running away
from or trying to, you know, get away from or chase.
And it could be the fact that they think that
more money, more power, more this that will make them
happy or something like that. It just always kind of
(41:41):
reminds me of Citizen Kane or something like that, with
you know, it's like, no, it was the childhood drum.
So I think it's important to recognize that, you know,
because I'm a person that's like, yeah, build, well save,
take care of your finances. That's great, but let's not
forget that money is not happiness. It could potentially help you,
(42:03):
you know, be more happy, but you already have to
be happy. So that's why I'm like therapy first, and
then let's see how we could build wealth, because otherwise
you're going to be like me where I was building
wealth and hitting all these milestones, and I was miserable
because money was never enough for me to know figure
out what was going on on the inside.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Going back to the types of therapy that you were mentioned,
like you specifically talked about how it sounded like ifs
for you, so that internal family systems, like it makes
me think about the fact, So Joel's got three kids,
I've got four kids. And for those who might want kids,
but bottom line, like we want them to develop a
healthy relationship with money, among other things. And so what
advice do you have for parents so that we're not
(42:47):
perpetuating negative money beliefs to the next generation. And I
basically just want to make sure I'm not like messing, yeah,
messing my kids' brains up.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Forcing them into therapy at age sixteen.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Yeah, I mean, you know, parenting. I've been saying this
on a lot of interviews because that's the question I
guess like, how do I not mess up my kids?
It's like, listen, I'm not a parent myself. My older
sister is, and I see how difficult it is every day.
She absolutely loves me a mom, but it is the
hardest job in the world. So props to any parent
for doing that work. And you're never going to get
(43:17):
it perfectly perfect. Just do the best that you can.
But I think if you do the work on yourself
to heal your relationship with money, it'll be a lot
easier and be more clear on how to then teach
your kids to have a healthy relationship with money, because
you're not going to be just perpetuating these things that
maybe you've adopted from your parents and they adopted from
(43:37):
their parents and so on and so forth. You're going
to have that stuff figured out, so you can not
say certain things that oh, my gosh, I didn't even
realize I said that.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
It's just certain idioms or things that you're like, oh
my gosh, you know, like money doesn't or you know.
What's one that we always hear, especially as millennials, is like, oh,
renting is throwing your money away, And you're like, no,
that's not true. I mean, there's a lot of different
ways to look at it, and that, you know, and
that's something that my parents would say, and I think
their parents said. And then as a you know, I
felt guilty for renting in my twenties, even though that
was the only way I could afford housing. So it's like,
(44:09):
that's not healthy, that's not positive. You want to teach
your children that money should not have control over you.
It's the other way around. You control money. You do
have to make certain choices, and certain choices have consequences,
and certain choices will you know, provide you a lot
of freedom and opportunity. So I think really showing them
(44:32):
that money is a tool. You are the hand that
wields it, and here are the things that you need
to know. And it's okay if you make a mistake.
Everyone makes a mistake. Just make sure that you learn
something from that mistake. And try to when you're, you know,
talking about money, not use shame or blame or judgment
because it's very easy to do that because again probably
(44:53):
comes from our past. Really try to listen and be open.
And I mean, if you're already talking to your kids
about money, that's already a great step because most of us,
like my parents, refuse to talk about money as a kid,
like I remember asking them how much do you earn?
Or how much did this house cost? And they'd be like, no,
we can't talk about that. That's that's inappropriate or that's
real believe So it made you know, it's like having
(45:14):
those conversations, making it open, that open dialogue, I think
is a really great first step.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
No, that's great advice. And it's amazing how there are
so many other things that in our lives we go
back to our childhood and we say, wait a second,
do I actually believe that thing that I was taught
or you at least kind of go back through it.
But with money, sometimes we never go back and question
those things. And I think it's it's such an important
tool and important play such an important role in our lives.
It's it's crucial to at least explore kind of how
(45:41):
we think about money and why we think that way
about money. Jessica, this has been a great conversation. Thanks
so much for joining us. Where can our audience work?
Can the How to Money listeners find out more about
your new book?
Speaker 4 (45:53):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Yes, thank you so much for having me I love
be on your show. You guys are amazing. It's called
Everything But Money, The Hidden Barriers between You and financial Freedom.
You can find it at any books are I don't
know in the US where it'll be in the physical bookstores, no,
no idea because I don't live there, but it's definitely
online everywhere and you can find more info about that
also on my website Jessica moorehouse dot com slash book.
(46:16):
You can also follow me on Instagram at Jessica Imoorhouse
and also have got a podcast called the More Money
Podcast if you want to check it out.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Awesome, right, I bet the books already in Minnesota because
it's kind of so close to Canada, you.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
Know, you know what we're basically, yeah, we are neighbors.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, I mean only feel is being delivered by horseback?
Would it not be all the way down here in
the Southern.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Stake the Mounties road down a couple of boxes.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
So, Jessica, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Thanks for having me all right, man, that was a
good chat. And it is true. It's one of those
things we just don't think about very often, how much
our money history impacts how our current lives are playing out.
It's true. So I think this was a good reminder
and some good information there from Jessica. What was your
big takeaway from this conversation?
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Mine landed about halfway through a conversation, and it's when
she was talking about trauma and specifically, and I love
that she phrased it this way. She pointed out that
it is not an excuse, but it's just an explanation
as to why perhaps that you behave a certain way,
why you have certain struggles, right Like why you might
know the right thing to do, but you fail to
(47:17):
do the right thing. And I think that that's key
in understanding why it is that you do certain things,
because if you want to tackle those things, well, all
of a sudden, you've got a more hopefully a more
effective toolbook, right like a more effective playbook, some different
strategies that you might be able to put to put
into practice that somewhat address some of the things that
you might struggle with as an individual, Like she was
(47:38):
talking about somebody who might struggle to invest well instead
of self directing your investments. Oh maybe this is somebody.
This is an instance where you should work with an
advisor that keeps you over.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
The hurdle of your own limiting beliefs or the places where.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Or ah, you know, like, or the distractions that you're
just whatever it is that's keeping you from making those investments.
Automating your investments might be an incredible.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Strategy for some of those folks.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
But yeah, I think it's helpful to know why it
is that we do certain things. But like she said,
it's not an excuse. And ultimately, the power does rest
with us to take the actions that we need to
in our lives.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
So nobody's gonna do it for us. Nobody means we
might need help, right, and we might. Whether that's the
how of money Facebook group, whether that is literally the
help of a professional therapist, that's great. We all need
help at times, whether that's your partner, your best friend,
whatever it is. None of those people are gonna do
it on our behalf.
Speaker 4 (48:30):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
I think my big takeaway was when she said that
we can use money as the solution that whether all
across the spectrum, whether it's spending or hoarding, we tend
to think that money is going to fix our problems
and it never does. And she even touched on that
at the end too, talking about we're talking about happiness. Happiness, Yeah,
how like, yeah, more money, I'll make you happy or
if you're happy, and if you're unhappy, sorry, it's not
(48:53):
gonna do the trick that has to be found elsewhere.
I think money can be this sort of soothing mechanism
in our lives, trying to cover up maybe some of
those places where we feel inadequate. I know, even at times, Matt.
That was how I treated it early on because of
kind of what I went through growing up that I
shared here with Jessica just a second ago, but that
(49:13):
it was that sort of okay, if I gather enough,
if I have enough, But there was never really an
enough amount. It never felt like enough, And so I
was trying to sue something that was ultimately not suitable
with money. And it can be hard to figure that out,
and it could take time to figure that out, but
it's important to do that so you can have a
healthy relationship with money and so that you're not I guess,
(49:33):
just endlessly chasing something that you're never going to be
able to catch up to. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I always like to think of money as like a
megaphone or an amplifier of what it is that you
are already feeling or what it is that you're already doing.
If you are a generous person and you like to
give your money away, okay, well, earning six figures for
the first time is going to allow you to give
out a higher level and same thing when it comes
to just how all the other actions we take with
our money and how we sort of feel like at
(49:58):
our baseline regardless of whether or not there's money. But
the beer that you and I, of course we enjoyed
a craft beer today and American craft beer. That's what
it says right here, is says Belgian inspired American crafted.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
The same from Canada. Unlike ow guests, I.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Wish we would have had a Canadian craft beer on.
But this is from Taxman like the Beatles, I guess
tax and it's called deduction. This is a Belgian style
d bell ale or double for the Americans out there, Well,
your thoughts on this one.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Oh man. This is like caramelized sugar, vibes, raisin caramel,
that kind of that kind of taste flavors going on,
which is classic Belgian du.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Belle yea and Belgian yeasts and funkness going on.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Which I love that style of beer, and this is
I feel like, approachable from like a light brown ale
kind of vibe, but it's got a ton of different
flavors that you don't typically get in American style beer.
You might get a little bit, but you don't get
this like full rounded Belgian sort of funky dark fruit
notes going on at the same time. That's a totally
(50:59):
Belgian vibe, which I appreciate.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Yeah, it reminds me of overwrite bananas, which is when
we first poured it, like I was smelling it and
I was just like, oh man, this, I feel like
this has major banana ether kind of notes going on.
But then you drink it and it's not overly sweet.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
It's it was fairly dry.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
And it kind of rounds out with some of those
you know, those Dungeon spices as well. Really enjoyable. Glad
we got to enjoy a beer from a brewery that
I've never I don't think I've ever had a beer
from these.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
Would you pick these up?
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Well?
Speaker 1 (51:25):
This was listener Todd picked this one up for us well,
and I think he brought this back from a trip
that he was on. I forget if he said it
was for a wedding or if he went.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
For a race Bargersville, Indiana.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Okay, yeah, so he was up there recently killed. The
label also had a he thought of us while he
was up there, which we appreciate. Yes, we had a
little hot of money running club thing here in town
the other day. And if you're a runner, you want
to go for a run with us, I don't reach out.
Maybe we'll make it happen again. And uh, we'll ripe
Todd and make him come back.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Maybe I'll even be there myself. Maybe, But that's gonna.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Be it for this episode.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
You can find our show notes up on the website
at howdomoney dot com. We'll make sure to link to
all the different spots where you can find Jessica on
the interwebs. And that'll be it, buddy. So until next time,
best friends Out, Best Friends Out.
Welcome to Hat of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're talking about breaking the hidden barriers to financial
freedom with Jessica Morehouse.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yeah, we're joined today by Jessica Morehouse, who Okay, So
she started out as a blogger. She was looking for
a creative outlet and a way to hold herself accountable
with her finances, and she's now a financial counselor.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
She's a speaker and host of her.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Own podcast, More Money. She is also the author of
the new book Everything But Money, The Hidden Barriers between
You and Financial Freedom. And Jessica is just all about
providing easy to understand advice delivered in a non judgmental way.
And she believes that there is a lot of stuff
that gets in the way of us being able to
achieve our financial goals. So yeah, maybe most folks already
(01:02):
know how to invest, but what they need is help
with a trauma, maybe from their upbringing. That's just one
of the topics we're hoping to cover today with Jessica.
Thank you for coming on How to Money.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Thank you for having me. Are you ready to talk
about your trauma?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Joel, Liz, I'm not. I've been on earthing in for
many years Jessica, So we no need to go there
on this episode.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I don't think, Yeah, we don't have enough time.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
That is exactly right. That's exactly right. Our first question
to everyone who comes on, though, is what do you
like to splourge on? Because Matt and I we like
to spend a good bit of money on good craft beer.
But hey, we're still doing the smart thing, saving and
investing for our futures. What is that splurge item for you?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I'd say in the past couple years, I do like
an expensive cocktail, and they can be really expensive where
you live in Toronto, like twenty bucks.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Cool, and that's an expensive drink.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
I know it's ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
You're like, that's a meal, but you're like, but it's
also a delicious cartini. So yeah, I like a goodtail.
Martiniz bougie ridiculous. Yeah, I love Martini's. I go to ginright,
you want to hear my newest take on the Gin
Martini is typically to make it.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Dirty, beelling everyone who listen.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
So I've only told you I made it for Kate
and I the other night. So typically if you make
it dirty, So yeah, the olive uh, we didn't have olives,
but we had some capers in our fridge, and so
I and the shaker. I'm a shaker, not a stir
for two martinis. Did a couple spoons of capers in
there with some of the brine, shook it, strained it
over a little sieve to clean it out and filter
(02:27):
it in the cocktail. Oh my goodness. Yeah, so stinking good.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So I'm not sure if you like yours dirty or not.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
I despise.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I tried a dirty martini because it is. It sounds classier,
and I'm like, this is disgusting. I'm just not into olive.
So I'm a with the twist, always with the twist.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Okay, fair enough, Well, there's a nice little lemon aromatic
that you get with that. Man, when did we Maybe
we should start like a whole like subhow to Money,
where we do cocktails instead of Oh.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
My gosh, I would listen craft beer.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Jessica, let's talk about your book everything. I was almost
going to say everything but the money, but no, everything
but money. You admit in the introduction to your book
that the reason you wanted wealth was to be seen
to be loved. Can you tell us about that realization,
because I'm curious how common is it for folks to
build wealth in order to maybe attempt to soothe some
(03:19):
of those hidden emotions and some of that past pain.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I mean, we can look to some of the interesting
billionaires out there right now that keep on doing some
interesting things with their money instead of I don't know,
sharing the wealth and helping people in need, and just
instead of buying really expensive yachts. So yeah, I did
not expect to write this book in a way that
it kind of became where I share a lot of
my own personal story. When I got this book deal,
(03:45):
I kind of pitched it as a yeah, I'm going to,
you know, help readers kind of discover their money story
and the relationship with money, help them, And it just
naturally how I wrote the book. It really was from
intro all the way to the end. I did it
in sequence, and I've never written a book before, did
not know the right or wrong way to do it.
I just started writing and it just kind of started
(04:06):
flowing out of me. The intro was like, all right,
this is what I'm thinking, And it was true that
it was the winter of twenty twenty two. I was
supposed to go back home to Vancouver to visit my
family for the holidays, and I got sick with COVID.
It was my first time having COVID, and it was brutal,
and I isolated for my husband because he had not
gotten it and I didn't want to get him sick.
(04:28):
And so I had a lot of time on my
own with my deep dark thoughts. And what I realized
was I was so not happy with my life, even
though on the outside it looked absolutely fine. But I
have a very loud inner critic, and no matter what
I achieved, whether it was in my career or with
(04:49):
my money, I never felt satisfied. I was always comparing
myself to I'll find someone who was doing better than
me and compare myself to that person's journey, even though
we're on different paths. Don't know why I'm comparing myself
to that person, and then just feel like crap, because
I'm like, well, you didn't do this. Though you didn't
do this, you could be doing better, you should work harder,
et cetera, et cetera. And so I realized, actually, I've
(05:11):
always had this thought in the back of my mind
that I should be doing better or more and there's
someone else doing more than you, and you know, you
should feel so bad about that. And I realized that
I've been kind of on that path for since childhood,
and I had to do some introspection on why is that?
Why do I feel not good enough? And there's many reasons.
(05:33):
You know, part of it was being a middle child,
and you know, kind of falling into that role of
being overlooked because I had a younger sister who you know,
needed a lot of attention when she was younger. Obviously,
then there was my older sibling and I just kind
of faded into the background because that's that was my
coping mechanism instead of asking for what I needed, which
(05:56):
was more attention, more equality, care and things like that.
And the other component was I also was just the
worst picker of friends. I would gravitate towards certain people
with certain energies, people that had, you know, a lot
of confidence or just were more extroverted, because I'm typically,
you know, pretty introverted, and these people would also what
(06:17):
I also realized after doing some therapy, I was very
attracted to people with specific types of trauma that would
have high highs low lows very inconsistent people. You know,
I talk about attachment theory in the book, and for
a long time, I was always attracted to people who
were avoidance. So people that you know, show you a
(06:38):
lot of care and love and then back off, and
it's just like that cat and mouse kind of chase.
And I loved it until I'd always get burned and
then I'd try to find new friends that were similar.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
And so I was dealing with.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
All this stuff and figuring this out about myself, and
that was kind of where I wanted to start with
the book, to just be like, hey, I've been doing
this kind of money expert thing, content creator thing in
financial education for over a decade and I am not perfect,
and I've got my wounds, and I have a very
complicated relationship with money. So let's go on this journey together,
(07:11):
because I think we've all got our stuff that we
need to work through.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Most people like in a lot of the things you
just described, whether it's you know, childhood issues, middle child.
I just talked a lot to get attention. Now was
a middle child too, but it and it worked. But
there are we don't necessarily associate some of the things
that you mentioned not having a hard time finding great
friends with maybe the end result of an awkward relationship
(07:37):
with your money or a bad relationship towards spending, saving,
or investing. How do you think about bad habits maybe
versus unexplored emotions and how those impact how we handle money.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, I think when you start doing that digging of
figuring out what your kind of past is and who
you are at your core, and then some of the
traumas that you've experienced or witness that have impacted you
that you haven't healed from. We can use multiple things
to try to soothe ourselves, to regulate our emotions to
make us feel better. Sometimes that's food, Sometimes that's alcohol,
(08:12):
Sometimes that's drugs, Sometimes that's fitness. But sometimes it's money.
And that really doesn't get that much attention. But I
mean I, as a financial counselor who you know has
worked with a number of people, especially with spending issues
or they're in debt, I would find over and over
you're not a bad person, or you're You didn't get
into debt because you didn't know what you were getting
yourself into. You didn't you had the financial knowledge to
(08:36):
not do that, but you did it anyway.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Why is that.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
It's because you were using money as a coping mechanism
to try to soothe yourself or try to heal, because
you know, whenever you buy something, you feel a little
bit better about yourself, You get a little bit boost
of confidence that dopamine hit, but then that goes away,
and so you need to repeat the cycle over and over.
But it doesn't have to be just spending. It could
be the opposite. And that's kind of where I fell
(09:00):
into a little bit, especially in my twenties, which was oversaving, underspending,
not taking care of myself and kind of not being
a martyr exactly, but finding that I liked the control
of I felt more in control when I was very
(09:23):
strict with my budget and said no a lot, because
I'm like, there's some pride to me, like, no, I'm
not going to do that because I'm doing something more
important with my money instead of going out with friends
to dinner or something like that, which also isn't healthy
because you should never feel better or worse depending on
how you spend or don't spend your money. You need
to have some balance, and I think most people fall
(09:45):
into some sort of extreme and that's never a healthy
place to live in long term?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Can you speak to the specific childhood money memories that
we might have that inform our relationship to money as.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
A Yeah, I can share mine, but I'd be curious
what yours are. If you've ever been asked that before,
because that's the most interesting thing I keep getting asked
on an interviews. Hey, let's talk about the money store,
because like so many people are, like, this got me
thinking about mine. No one's ever asked me that. I've
never thought about it. So I kind of start off
the book by let's explore how you feel about money,
(10:21):
and let's go back to your first money memory, which
was your first interaction with money?
Speaker 4 (10:25):
And guess what?
Speaker 3 (10:26):
It usually happens very early in childhood. For me, it
was four years old, and I've always had a relationship
with money that was always very tightly connected to shame.
And I always wondered, why is that? Why do I
always feel so ashamed about who I am and where
I'm at financially, even when I'm in a decent place.
(10:46):
And then I looked back at, Okay, what was my
first money memory? And then it just you know, came
to me while I was writing, like, oh, well, there
was the gumball at the grocery store.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
I was kid at the grocery store with my mom.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Loved going because if I behaved, she would treat me
to a donut. And I also loved, you know, walking
in the bulk aisle just to take a look at
all the different candy. But I knew I wasn't supposed touch.
But then one day I'm like, ah, she's not looking,
and what's the harm. Adults, you know, Papa, sample into
their mouths all the time. I'm gonna steal a gumball,
so I did. Was way too big for me to
(11:17):
chew at four years old, so I just like kept
it in my cheeks like a squirrel hoarding nuts. And
when we're walking to the parking lot, because she hadn't
really noticed the exo, so I guess hiding my face,
she popped the trunk put the groceries in, and then
she saw him. I also, I was completely blue in
the face, just like from the sticky blue gumball all
over because I.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Was a sticky kid. And she's like, what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
And she you know, I have this vivid memory, and
of course she's like, I do not remember this at
all I'm like, course, not is a core memory for me,
not for you. But she dragged me back to the
grocery store and made me spit it out and said,
we don't steal things. You cannot do this. We have
to pay for things like this. And the other kind
of component besides feeling ashamed for stealing was I also
felt like we can't look like we cannot afford something,
(12:01):
because there's a lot of shame in looking like you're poor,
and there still is. We have a lot of judgment
on people who are low income, which is terrible. And
so there's a lot of kind of layers of shame
and money, or the lack of money that I've brought
from that first interaction as a child into adulthood.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
So with that, I want to ask you both, do.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
You either can you think of what maybe your first
money memory might be.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Oh, yeah, we've talked about here on the show. I
would say I had a fairly surprisingly healthy upbringing when
it came to money being paid for the things that
I worked for. And maybe you would say that that's
not healthy, but it's certainly instilled a sort of a
work ethic. You get money and you are a good
manager of your money. I don't know all the kind
of things that we talk about, at least here on
(12:49):
the show.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, mine, I've talked about as well. Far less healthy.
And my parents had a lot of financial struggles when
I was a kid in a really impressiable aile age.
They argued about money and then eventually we had a
car repossessed, my dad lost lost a job, and they
were just kind of this cascading like sequence of events
(13:13):
in the personal finance space in our family's life that
left an indelible impression on me. And so it's almost
like I think, like the Men in Black memory eraser stick.
I don't remember any money things before that, but that
is like my distinct recollection of money and it's big
impact on me. Yeah, I've had to work that stuff
(13:33):
out in adulthood for sure, to have like a healthy
relationship with money and not just kind of a scarcity attachment.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Yeah, and that's easy.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
I mean I have definitely battled scarcity, and that's so
common to so many people. I encounter battle scarcity, and
it's because they either personally experienced that as a child,
or they witnessed their parents kind of experiencing that, or
I even talk about in the book about generational trauma
where you can inherit it and maybe it's all maybe
(14:00):
it's all of those things combined. And that was kind
of my experience, which makes it very difficult to try
to have an abundance mindset manifest You're like, yeah, that's
not as easy for me as it could be for you.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Sure, So do you think that folks don't take enough
time to I guess connect some of those memories, some
of those narratives that we've all experienced as kids too.
How does that we currently handle our finances? Oh?
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Absolutely, Like that's been the interesting thing.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
The book as we're recording, has been out for about
three weeks, and the feedback I've gotten from so many people,
all these emails and dms, is oh my god. I've
never thought there was a connection between my childhood trauma
and my money, But now that you mention it, it
makes so much sense. And that's exactly what I wanted
is for people to make those connections because often the
(14:48):
especially with you know, traditional personal finance advice and some
of the loud voices in the space, the old voices
in the space that you made know who I'm talking
about they put the blame on the individual. You're not
doing this, you're not working hard enough, you're not motivated enough,
you're not smart enough, you're bad for doing this with
your money. And that's not the case. I find when
(15:10):
I work with individuals. Something else is going on. There's
some reason they keep on messing up, and they know
they're messing up and they.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Don't want to, but they keep doing it. And it's
not because.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
It's also not a great motivator for most people right
a long term you really suck. It's not usually one
of those things that says, you know what, yeah I do,
let me go and like improve myself.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah, Like if someone says, wow, you really put on
some pounds, does that motivate you to go the dead? No,
it makes you feel really bad and you probably will
just cry about it. Like that's my experience anyway, If
someone you know, shames me in that way, it doesn't
motivate me to improve my situation. But unfortunately, that's a
lot of the kind of messaging and the tone out
there is using that tactic of shame. And that's why
(15:52):
I really want to be gentle in my book, because
I'm not super gentle with myself sometimes in my mind,
but I want to have a space where people can
be vulnerable with themselves in this book and also feel
guided by someone who was like, there's no shame or
blame in this book. You're not going to hear that
tone of voice at all here.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So it sounds like we probably need to have like
think through those stories that inform our money beliefs. We
probably need to assign some specific emotions to kind of
what we went through and how we now maybe relate
to money, and then what do we do with that,
Like we've got the feelings maybe outlined, We've got some
(16:31):
of our actual kind of childhood data infused into that.
Where do we go from there?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
When you start understanding your past, your kind of origin
story with money, how it's kind of continued as you
get into adulthood, and then start putting labels on some
of the feelings that you have about money. And there's
a whole chapter on the different feelings. I mean, there's
a ton of feelings out there, obviously, but the main
ones that I see people connect with money is shame, guilt, fear, anxiety, envy,
(17:01):
and despair. Those are kind of the most common ones
when you kind of make all those connections. Now you're
at a place where you can start kind of writing
what your current money story is, and that's the narrative
that you've been telling yourself up until now about you
and money, what you can and cannot achieve, what's your
potential or you know, just some of the things that
are holding you back, some of the behaviors and habits,
(17:25):
values that you've maybe adopted from your childhood that you
you know, I never noticed I did that, or the
things that actually because of your childhood, you went the
complete opposite direction and rebelled against maybe what you saw
your parents do, and so that's why you do this
and this, which maybe also isn't healthy. Again, I find
a lot of people that are struggling with their relationship
(17:48):
with the money. It's because they're stuck in some sort
of extreme and we want to come to a place
that makes more sense. You're more logical, rational, less emotional
about money, so you can start taking better care of
your money and yourself. But you need to be able
to outline and really kind of figure out what is
the blueprint I've been using with my money up until now,
so we can see what do we want to change.
(18:09):
How can we renovate this house so it's a better
representation of where I actually want to be with my money.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
You mentioned rebelling against maybe the stories, or it's maybe
even some of.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
The values that were explicitly taught to you.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
As a kid within your family. Like, I think it's
understandable why we tend to adopt those values in those stories, right,
Like we're raised by parents who hopefully love us, and
hopefully most listeners they love their parents. Like, it has
a large impact on how you viewed the world. But
for someone listening and they've identified that, you know what,
maybe they didn't handle their finances the best. Aside from that, Like,
(18:46):
I guess what strategies or steps would you recommend for
folks who are looking to essentially rewrite their money story, Like,
how do you go about doing that?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Yeah, I'd say, really lay out, Yeah, what are some
of your feelings, the patterns you're seeing, the habits and behaviors, values,
all that stuff.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Write it all down.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
And I do have some exercises in the book to
kind of ask you some questions so it can kind
of jog your memory. So you can kind of write
down everything and then take a step back to take
a look at what's.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Working in what's not.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Like just the other day, I just had this realization
that I adopted this idea, and my husband is the same.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
He's like, oh yeah, I do that too.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Where I think you were a complete chump or I'm
a complete chump if I buy something that's not on
sale because I was taught or not even directly. I
think I just observed that my mom always bought things
on sale, but never buy anything that is full price
because well, you know, it's being marked up anyway, and
it's not worth that anyway. I'm just gonna wait for
it to be on sale. That's how you know you're
going to get a good deal. Otherwise you're, you know,
(19:46):
being hoodwinked and you know, being paying too much for
that thing.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
I'll tell Joel why he's wrong. I do feel like
you're stepping on my toes right now, Jessica.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Yes, sorry, sorry, sorry sorry, And there's nothing wrong with
the deal. Hey, I still love a good deal. But
I realized there are certain things that I wanted and
could afford, and there was no reason I shouldn't buy it,
and I like felt guilty for even thinking of purchasing
it because it wasn't on sale. That's illogical. That's an
illogical thing to bring with me from childhood to adulthood.
(20:17):
There's so many great things that you could be buying,
especially from like amazing small businesses and you know, artists
and things like that that will never be on sale.
So that means you're limiting yourself from not spending your
money in that way because of this one thing.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
So let's be honest. Sales often give us the permission
to buy something we shouldn't buy it too, so fueling
that consumeristic lifestyle and mindset exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
And so I realized for me, I'm like, that's something
I need to let go of. Or even you know,
when I said my kind of you know, thing that
I like to splurge on is a cocktails.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
I would have never in a million years said that.
In my twenties or even the early thirties, I was
the person that go to a restaurant, look at the
cheapest thing on the menu, and that's what I was
going to get, And that just became a habit. I
didn't been realize I had. It was just so second
nature until I'm like, what if you want to eat
something different, why are you always going for the burger
(21:08):
when you want the chicken or something? And yeah, I
don't know, but it's just like, these are things that
are not serving me and they're holding me back for
maybe some a great experience or something joyful or something nice.
And it's not gonna ruin my retirement, you know, spending
five extra dollars or ten extra dollars when again it's
in my budgets and something that I can fully do.
(21:29):
And so it's really about laying out what's working, what's not,
and then also maybe adding some stuff. What would you
like to include What are you not doing that you've
always wanted to do with your money? And that could
be you know, a lot of people encounter are really
focused on saving, but they haven't really gotten to that
investing component, which is so vital. That is the only
way you're gonna build wealth and achieve those really big
(21:51):
lofty dreams of maybe you know, quitting your job one day,
or retiring early, or just retiring at all. But so
many people are maybe afraid to even get started or
to learn about it because the lessons they maybe learned were, oh, no,
investing's risky, you're going to lose all your money. And
just look at the neighbors. They lost their you know,
investments in the last crash. So don't even bother. Just
put your money in the bank and you know, some
(22:13):
safe investments. And that's something that you may have to
also be like, yeah, we're not going to do that,
and we're going to add in this new component of
we need to invest for our future.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah. It's amazing too how different people grow up in
different ways and so they have completely different money stories,
and yet it takes a lot of kind of going
back in time to figure out what they are, how
they've informed how you live today. We'll talking about that.
We'll talk about actually trauma and how that impacts how
people think about their finances and act with money. We'll
(22:44):
get into more of that with Jessica Morehouse right after this.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Right, we are back from the break speaking with Jessica
Morehouse and Jessica, So before the break, you were kind
of talking about some of the loudest voices in the
personal finance space. It's kind of like when you're talking
about like the blame game a little bit, and you've
got a chapter titled It's not you, it's your trauma.
And there's a quote from that section you say, we
(23:16):
all need to take ownership of the financial decisions we make.
But if those decisions keep driving us into a bigger
debt hole each month and we have no idea why
or how to stop it, we need to consider that
there's something deeper going on. And I almost wanted to
interject earlier, but talk about I guess the balance of
personal responsibility on one hand.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
As opposed to this past hardship that a lot of.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Us have experienced. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
So yeah, there's a couple other parts of that section
that I think are really helpful, just to kind of
always remind yourself, as number one, understanding your money story
and your trauma and how it impacts your financial life
and your financial decisions is not an excuse. It's an explanation,
and a lot of us are just lacking that explanation.
(24:02):
And the other part, which I really love and I
remind myself of this all the time, is you are
not bad with money. And we needed to stop asking
ourselves what's wrong with me and maybe instead start asking
ourselves what happened to me? Because usually we think that
we're doing something wrong because we're you know, I'm dumb.
I'm just bad with money. That's a common thing I hear.
(24:25):
It's not that money is a skill that anyone can learn.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
I do not have.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I did not start from a financial background. I went
to film school. I was an art school kid, a
very artsy school. I went to and then graduated and
knew nothing about money. And it was the Great Recession
two thousand and nine, and I'm like, oh, shoot, how
do I pay off my student loans? How do I
live and pay rent? I have no idea and loan.
I found personal finance blogs, started educating myself. And again,
I was never into science for math that I was
(24:51):
always like English arts. That was kind of my brain
and I was able to learn it and find the
parts that really connected with me. So I believe anyone
can learn anything about money. But with that said, sometimes
things come easier to certain people depending on are you
secure with money or insecure with money? And that's just
to say that did you have was you know, money
(25:14):
kind of represented or a healthy role in your family?
It was, you know, represented as something that this is
a tool that you can do whatever you want with.
It can provide a lot of security and freedom and
it's a good thing, but a lot of us grew
up in households where money wasn't a positive character in
our lives. It was something that it was always holding
(25:35):
us back and forced us to say no a lot.
It was always the reason we couldn't do something instead
of allowing us to do something. And so by better
understanding the role that trauma has with your finances, I
think that can really open the door to get that
explanation that you really need and to kind of go
more into what trauma means. It's just another word for
(25:59):
emotional wound that you have not healed yet, and we
all have them. Unfortunately. It could be really tiny, it
could be really big. There is big T trauma and
little T trauma, and everyone is a different story. And
you can even be traumatized by just witnessing something, not
even experiencing it. And like I mentioned, you could also
inherit it from some of your ancestors. And so there's
(26:21):
a lot of different traumas that you may have inside
you that may be holding you back. And I'm happy
to know you can jump in anytime, because I can
go on and on.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
About that it might be smaller than trauma, but just
I'm thinking about people's different personality types or just abilities
and neurodiversence. Right I'm thinking of my kids and their
birth order and how they have different skills, and sometimes
that skill manifests itself as being really great in school,
(26:52):
and other times it's like, I'm really great socially, but
school's not my strong suit right now, and so something
like ADHD can play a role even in our finances.
I'm thinking about my middle kid right now, and I'm
just like, oh, man, what's this going to look like
for it's going to look her relationship with money is
just going to look different differently than it does for
her older sister, even though they grew up in the
same house, with the same parents, with a lot of
(27:14):
the same money conversations going on. So, how would you say,
because you wrote about this in the book, how are
people who struggle with like ADHD, whether they know it
or not, impacted on the financial front.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, so this is a topic that I've you know,
I think it's great that's becoming a lot more open
in conversation, especially online in the personal finance community. A
lot of content creators, financial content creators have ADHD it's
becoming I'm not sure if it's I kind of talk
about this in the book, whether it's you know, ADHD
is more common than it was, or people are just
(27:44):
being properly diagnosed and there's just more information and data.
But if you do have ADHD, money is going to
be different for you than someone who does not have it,
because you are operating with a different system and you
may need to put some different systems in place so
you can properly manage your money in a way that
makes sense for you. And I also talk about in
(28:05):
the book how there's also a huge link between ADHD
and trauma because they actually share a lot of the
same symptoms.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
So sometimes.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
You know, you may be misdiagnosed with ADHD, but it
may actually be trauma that we haven't dealt with, or
people with ADHD are actually more prone to experience trauma.
So there's a lot of overlap, a lot of connection
between the two. But this is all to say that,
you know, when you are in a you know, you're
(28:37):
a person that can get distracted, or there's there's other
things that are preventing you from just following through when
you're like this is so simple, Why can't you just
do it, It's gonna be harder for you. So you
have to kind of create your own roadmap for how
do I get to the results that I want in
a way that makes sense for me. Because even for me,
like I manage my money differently than a lot of
(28:57):
people because of how my brain works.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
I'm very visual. I like lists.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
And like organizing things, and some other people they're like,
I cannot do it that way. That just does not
make sense for me. And so that's that's definitely something
that I really wanted to put in there. Is everyone's different,
and that's why even though there's so many great there's
so much great you know and free financial education out there, unfortunately,
personal finance is personal and there's no such thing as
(29:23):
a one size fits all strategy for everyone. You have
to kind of take what makes sense for you and
then kind of create your own thing with it.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Can you share some examples? Maybe, so you are a
financial counselor and you've seen a lot of folks who
have a lot of different personalities, backgrounds, ADHD perhaps, and
you said that sometimes it's different systems that need to
be creative, Like literally, what does that look like? I
mean does it conceptually? Is that creating hard boundaries? Practically speaking?
What does that look like?
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:52):
So honestly, when I get approached by someone who has
ADHD and they're looking for financial help, I actually try
to find them a financial professional who specializes in that
or even has ADHD. And there's a few people I
know because I'm like, you want to maybe work with
someone who knows exactly what you're going through. I don't,
and so I want you to find someone who can
(30:12):
help you the best way possible. But for for lots
of other people who more than people, I think I've
encountered our people with trauma, which is actually a little
easier to deal with. Is we need to figure out
what are you having the hardest problem with right now?
And then how can we create systems so you know,
(30:32):
on payday you don't blow through all of your money.
We're making sure we're putting money into savings, we're putting
money aside to pay all of your expenses, we're giving
you some fun money. How can we create these systems?
And you know, for some people, yeah, you can use
a credit card for everything, get those points, build your
credit score, and you're going to be completely responsible with that.
Some people, Yeah, you shouldn't use a credit card for
(30:53):
anything that's not like a fixed bill that you know
exactly how much is going to go on that card
and you can pay it off right away. Everything else,
we need a different system, such as your debit card
or like a prepaid card or something like that, so
we have that kind of guard rail so you don't
know we're spend. So it kind of depends on the
person to see what are you dealing with, what do
we need to kind of change. For example, even for investing,
(31:16):
there are certain people that I'm like, you should not
be a self directed or di win investor. You should
either work with an advisor or a robo advisor. You
need something that's so simple, that's automated that you cannot
touch because you shouldn't touch it.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
It's like, you know yourself and if you are a
terrible baller, you put the bumpers up right so that
you can still hit some pins down even if it
just like goes back and forth across the alley the
whole time. And yeah, so I think that makes a
whole lot of sense, and it's specific to the individual.
And you're right, there are some people who an advisor
makes sense or a robo advisor, And then there are
(31:51):
other people who like uh. And there's some people who
should maybe never ever check their account balance or once
a year at most, because they'd be too inclined to
make a knee jerk decision. And then there are other
people who I don't know, They can look at it
once a week because they're curious, but it's not going
to impact their decision making or their emotions. And one
thing you said to in your book, you said, Eu
Schrapau is not just trauma getting in the way of
(32:13):
smart money decisions. You say, it's just our basic humanity too,
which I don't know makes me feel like we're all
screwed or something that they Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Maybe not all screwed, all screwed up a little bit, Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
All right, Well, no, you highlight a whole whole lot
of different biases that we have and how that essentially
kind of derails what we're able to achieve.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yeah, Like, just being a human is going to make
it harder to be perfect with money. And I've not
met anyone who's perfect with money, but just being a
human and we have these instincts that are helping us
to survive. But a lot of these instincts come from
hundreds of thousands of years ago and they don't apply
to our finances. So you know, one thing I always
bring up is herd mentality because we've all probably experienced
(32:55):
it or have witnessed it where and I feel like
we're seeing that now with like crypto again, is just
everyone just like, oh well, everyone's getting into this. I
don't want to be left behind, So I'm going to
get into this coin as well, and I'm going to
get rich and this is how I'm going to survive.
And then what happens is there's a bubble, it bursts
in your left holding big or something like that. Now,
that instinct made a lot of sense back when we
(33:17):
lived in herds and had to run away from some
sort of danger and animal that was going to attack us.
We had to run as a herd to get away
from the danger. Does not work the same with the
stock market, Like you're just going to do some really
big damage to your finances. And so understanding some of
these biases that we will take as oh well, my
instinct says or my gut says, to do this in finance,
(33:40):
most of the time, you have to do the opposite
to what your instincts are telling you, which is very
difficult to do. You have to be very self aware
of what's going on, how you're feeling, and sometimes don't
do it. I mean almost most of the time, don't
do anything until you've kind of calmed down and don't
like this urge to you know, liquidate your savings because
(34:03):
the you know, everything's collapsing or you know, I'm I'm
sure you're seeing a lot of this. I see a
lot of this in Canada as well, as people are
freaking out because the political situation and there's a lot
of uncertainty and what should I do? Should I pull
out everything? I'm like, God, no, just keep it, stop,
don't touch it. Just don't do what your instincts are saying,
which is runaway. You need to stay in place because
(34:25):
a line is not coming to attack you. It's it's
just you got to just keep calm and carry on
a little.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Bit over inflating the potential reality of political turmoil or
certain situations in our lives. You know, I feel like
we've covered the problem well. But you also talk about
and you offer some of these services but how do
you help people think through if they actually need the
help of a professional to kind of weigh through some
of their past history, their money traumas, and trying to
(34:52):
kind of figure out that what's informed kind of their
current money beliefs, and then how to change whether that's
something they can kind of of pursue on their own.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
I mean, I'm of the belief that everyone should go
to therapy, but we're all going to the dentist, We're
all going to the doctor. We shall also going to
go go cisia therapist. But you know, I do offer
a lot of kind of self guided exercises within the
book to kind of get you started. But I feel
like in most cases, and especially even with just finance
in general, you're probably going to hit a point where
you're like, I need a second pair of eyes or
(35:24):
just some some outside person that can look at what
I've been able to build to be like is this right?
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Did I miss anything?
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Because in so many other areas of our lives, we
usually have someone else looking over our work or just
to check. Like with my book My God, I had
editors and editors and copywriters, and I could not write
a whole book by myself without having someone check my work.
And so we need to see what are what can
we do on our own? And then at what point
do we hit the limit of oh, I can't really
move forward, you know, without some extra help. And so
(35:55):
when it's financial specifics, like I, you know, I just
had a call with someone this morning who was interested
in signing up to my course, and then eventually came
to the point I'm like, you know, I don't think
you need another course. They're a person who kind of
kept on signing up for courses, Like I think you
need a planner. I think you need to hire a
financial planner because all you want to know is do
I have enough for retirement. That's something that's very specific
to you. I don't have all your info. A planner
(36:17):
can help with that, and that's not something maybe you
can feel confident enough to figure that out on your own,
because even if you know there's great calculators and calculations
you can do on your own, sometimes you just need
someone else to do the calculation also and be like, oh, great,
we got the same number.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Okay, great, that's that's all I want.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
And so when it comes to things like trauma and
just some of the kind of internal issues you're dealing with.
There's a lot you can do on your own, but
at a certain point you're probably going to want someone
who actually has a background in mental health to guide
you onto kind of the next phase of your path.
And I say this too because while I was writing
(36:54):
the book, and I've saw, you know, seen a therapist
for a number of years, gosh, probably going back to
I mean consistently since twenty twenty.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
Like most of us, like you see therapist. This is
a lot going on in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
And he was wonderful, But it wasn't until I started
writing this book that I'm like, you know, I still
saw him, but I'm like, you know, we're not really
getting deep. I'm not really sure if this is really working.
So I started to see a couple other different therapists,
mainly just to see what different types of therapy are
out there and how could I describe them for my book.
And then I ended up doing a lot of sessions
with them and doing a lot of work on myself,
(37:28):
and they were able to make me experience breakthroughs I've
never experienced, and connections with myself, my childhood, and my
money that I know I couldn't have done just on
my own.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I think even in the book you mentioned how previously
maybe it was CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, and so, but
I get the impression that you've kind of ventured into
different types. Is there a specific approach that you think
helps folks when it comes to financial issues or does
it depend more on I guess, the individual and what
they're going through.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
I think definitely depends on the individual.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
CBT may be perfect for most people, that's usually kind
of the route that most people I think start, But
if you are dealing with some you know, really heavy
emotional wounds that you can't really figure out, and my
CBT therapist that wasn't really his area of expertise, that's
when I'm like, you know what, I'm going to look
into EMDR. I'm going to look into internal family systems.
(38:23):
I did some research about them, and they are really
specific to trauma.
Speaker 4 (38:26):
I'm like, I'm going to test those out.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
I read a really great book too, especially with internal
family systems, because it's fairly not as well known, but
it's fascinating and I think it's amazing.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
There's a book called No.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
Bad Parts that talks all about it, so you have
a better understanding of what you're getting yourself into. But
doing for me EMDR, which is becoming more common with
trauma treatment. And then IFS. Those were things that previously
I didn't even know about, and those were the things
that really moved the dial for me, especially IFS, which
I would have never thought about, because it is when
(39:00):
you learn about it, it sounds a bit woo woo,
and I'm not woo woo in any like, I just
don't believe in anything like that kind of stuff like
meditation blah. You know, I'm like, can't do it. But
this was just something that really connected with me. I
think largely because I'm a very visual person and it's
all about kind of visualization.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Maybe I'm even going to consider therapy drill go's Like,
you know, we all see Dennis and doctors. Well, jess
get jokes on you because I don't see those guys here.
But maybe I will go and see a mental health professional.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I'm just married to on it for free.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
Oh, I'm sure she loves that.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
We've got a few more questions to get to with
Jessica will gets all that right after this.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Our we're back. We're still talking about the hidden barriers
to financial freedom, breaking through those things. And it is
amazing how much just what we've gone through in our past,
how it goes unexplored, examined, and it's really hard to
change the life and the trajectory of your life when
it remains unexamined. So I think Jessica's bringing out You're
bringing out a lot of great stuff here, Jessica, which
(40:10):
we appreciate. Towards the end of the book, you say something.
You highlight the fact that getting better with money and
actually having more of it can equate to less happiness,
which sounds counterintuitive, and especially with more recent studies coming
out about hey, higher net worth levels of income actually
do tend to increase happiness levels more than we previously thought.
(40:31):
How do you think about the role of money and
happiness and why do you think that more of it
might actually not lead to more happiness.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
So it really depends on where you're coming from. So
there is some you know, there's that study that we
all know. Now, if you have a seventy thousand dollars
income per year, that's your kind of the happiness kind
of limit, and above that you're not going to be happier. Well,
that scientist and another scientist did another study together to
actually kind of expand, and what they really found was
(40:59):
you can increase your happiness with more money only if
you're already happy. But if you're not happy, if you're miserable,
more money is not going to make you less miserable.
It cannot solve that, you know, wound for you. It
cannot heal that for you. Money is just going to
be a band aid. And I think possibly that is
(41:21):
why we see all of these very wealthy individuals accrue
more and more and more, and you're like, why are
they what are they chasing? What are they running away
from or trying to, you know, get away from or chase.
And it could be the fact that they think that
more money, more power, more this that will make them
happy or something like that. It just always kind of
(41:41):
reminds me of Citizen Kane or something like that, with
you know, it's like, no, it was the childhood drum.
So I think it's important to recognize that, you know,
because I'm a person that's like, yeah, build, well save,
take care of your finances. That's great, but let's not
forget that money is not happiness. It could potentially help you,
(42:03):
you know, be more happy, but you already have to
be happy. So that's why I'm like therapy first, and
then let's see how we could build wealth, because otherwise
you're going to be like me where I was building
wealth and hitting all these milestones, and I was miserable
because money was never enough for me to know figure
out what was going on on the inside.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Going back to the types of therapy that you were mentioned,
like you specifically talked about how it sounded like ifs
for you, so that internal family systems, like it makes
me think about the fact, So Joel's got three kids,
I've got four kids. And for those who might want kids,
but bottom line, like we want them to develop a
healthy relationship with money, among other things. And so what
advice do you have for parents so that we're not
(42:47):
perpetuating negative money beliefs to the next generation. And I
basically just want to make sure I'm not like messing, yeah,
messing my kids' brains up.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Forcing them into therapy at age sixteen.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Yeah, I mean, you know, parenting. I've been saying this
on a lot of interviews because that's the question I
guess like, how do I not mess up my kids?
It's like, listen, I'm not a parent myself. My older
sister is, and I see how difficult it is every day.
She absolutely loves me a mom, but it is the
hardest job in the world. So props to any parent
for doing that work. And you're never going to get
(43:17):
it perfectly perfect. Just do the best that you can.
But I think if you do the work on yourself
to heal your relationship with money, it'll be a lot
easier and be more clear on how to then teach
your kids to have a healthy relationship with money, because
you're not going to be just perpetuating these things that
maybe you've adopted from your parents and they adopted from
(43:37):
their parents and so on and so forth. You're going
to have that stuff figured out, so you can not
say certain things that oh, my gosh, I didn't even
realize I said that.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
It's just certain idioms or things that you're like, oh
my gosh, you know, like money doesn't or you know.
What's one that we always hear, especially as millennials, is like, oh,
renting is throwing your money away, And you're like, no,
that's not true. I mean, there's a lot of different
ways to look at it, and that, you know, and
that's something that my parents would say, and I think
their parents said. And then as a you know, I
felt guilty for renting in my twenties, even though that
was the only way I could afford housing. So it's like,
(44:09):
that's not healthy, that's not positive. You want to teach
your children that money should not have control over you.
It's the other way around. You control money. You do
have to make certain choices, and certain choices have consequences,
and certain choices will you know, provide you a lot
of freedom and opportunity. So I think really showing them
(44:32):
that money is a tool. You are the hand that
wields it, and here are the things that you need
to know. And it's okay if you make a mistake.
Everyone makes a mistake. Just make sure that you learn
something from that mistake. And try to when you're, you know,
talking about money, not use shame or blame or judgment
because it's very easy to do that because again probably
(44:53):
comes from our past. Really try to listen and be open.
And I mean, if you're already talking to your kids
about money, that's already a great step because most of us,
like my parents, refuse to talk about money as a kid,
like I remember asking them how much do you earn?
Or how much did this house cost? And they'd be like, no,
we can't talk about that. That's that's inappropriate or that's
real believe So it made you know, it's like having
(45:14):
those conversations, making it open, that open dialogue, I think
is a really great first step.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
No, that's great advice. And it's amazing how there are
so many other things that in our lives we go
back to our childhood and we say, wait a second,
do I actually believe that thing that I was taught
or you at least kind of go back through it.
But with money, sometimes we never go back and question
those things. And I think it's it's such an important
tool and important play such an important role in our lives.
It's it's crucial to at least explore kind of how
(45:41):
we think about money and why we think that way
about money. Jessica, this has been a great conversation. Thanks
so much for joining us. Where can our audience work?
Can the How to Money listeners find out more about
your new book?
Speaker 4 (45:53):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Yes, thank you so much for having me I love
be on your show. You guys are amazing. It's called
Everything But Money, The Hidden Barriers between You and financial Freedom.
You can find it at any books are I don't
know in the US where it'll be in the physical bookstores, no,
no idea because I don't live there, but it's definitely
online everywhere and you can find more info about that
also on my website Jessica moorehouse dot com slash book.
(46:16):
You can also follow me on Instagram at Jessica Imoorhouse
and also have got a podcast called the More Money
Podcast if you want to check it out.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Awesome, right, I bet the books already in Minnesota because
it's kind of so close to Canada, you.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
Know, you know what we're basically, yeah, we are neighbors.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, I mean only feel is being delivered by horseback?
Would it not be all the way down here in
the Southern.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Stake the Mounties road down a couple of boxes.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
So, Jessica, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Thanks for having me all right, man, that was a
good chat. And it is true. It's one of those
things we just don't think about very often, how much
our money history impacts how our current lives are playing out.
It's true. So I think this was a good reminder
and some good information there from Jessica. What was your
big takeaway from this conversation?
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Mine landed about halfway through a conversation, and it's when
she was talking about trauma and specifically, and I love
that she phrased it this way. She pointed out that
it is not an excuse, but it's just an explanation
as to why perhaps that you behave a certain way,
why you have certain struggles, right Like why you might
know the right thing to do, but you fail to
(47:17):
do the right thing. And I think that that's key
in understanding why it is that you do certain things,
because if you want to tackle those things, well, all
of a sudden, you've got a more hopefully a more
effective toolbook, right like a more effective playbook, some different
strategies that you might be able to put to put
into practice that somewhat address some of the things that
you might struggle with as an individual, Like she was
(47:38):
talking about somebody who might struggle to invest well instead
of self directing your investments. Oh maybe this is somebody.
This is an instance where you should work with an
advisor that keeps you over.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
The hurdle of your own limiting beliefs or the places where.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Or ah, you know, like, or the distractions that you're
just whatever it is that's keeping you from making those investments.
Automating your investments might be an incredible.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Strategy for some of those folks.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
But yeah, I think it's helpful to know why it
is that we do certain things. But like she said,
it's not an excuse. And ultimately, the power does rest
with us to take the actions that we need to
in our lives.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
So nobody's gonna do it for us. Nobody means we
might need help, right, and we might. Whether that's the
how of money Facebook group, whether that is literally the
help of a professional therapist, that's great. We all need
help at times, whether that's your partner, your best friend,
whatever it is. None of those people are gonna do
it on our behalf.
Speaker 4 (48:30):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
I think my big takeaway was when she said that
we can use money as the solution that whether all
across the spectrum, whether it's spending or hoarding, we tend
to think that money is going to fix our problems
and it never does. And she even touched on that
at the end too, talking about we're talking about happiness. Happiness, Yeah,
how like, yeah, more money, I'll make you happy or
if you're happy, and if you're unhappy, sorry, it's not
(48:53):
gonna do the trick that has to be found elsewhere.
I think money can be this sort of soothing mechanism
in our lives, trying to cover up maybe some of
those places where we feel inadequate. I know, even at times, Matt.
That was how I treated it early on because of
kind of what I went through growing up that I
shared here with Jessica just a second ago, but that
(49:13):
it was that sort of okay, if I gather enough,
if I have enough, But there was never really an
enough amount. It never felt like enough, And so I
was trying to sue something that was ultimately not suitable
with money. And it can be hard to figure that out,
and it could take time to figure that out, but
it's important to do that so you can have a
healthy relationship with money and so that you're not I guess,
(49:33):
just endlessly chasing something that you're never going to be
able to catch up to. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I always like to think of money as like a
megaphone or an amplifier of what it is that you
are already feeling or what it is that you're already doing.
If you are a generous person and you like to
give your money away, okay, well, earning six figures for
the first time is going to allow you to give
out a higher level and same thing when it comes
to just how all the other actions we take with
our money and how we sort of feel like at
(49:58):
our baseline regardless of whether or not there's money. But
the beer that you and I, of course we enjoyed
a craft beer today and American craft beer. That's what
it says right here, is says Belgian inspired American crafted.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
The same from Canada. Unlike ow guests, I.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Wish we would have had a Canadian craft beer on.
But this is from Taxman like the Beatles, I guess
tax and it's called deduction. This is a Belgian style
d bell ale or double for the Americans out there, Well,
your thoughts on this one.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Oh man. This is like caramelized sugar, vibes, raisin caramel,
that kind of that kind of taste flavors going on,
which is classic Belgian du.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Belle yea and Belgian yeasts and funkness going on.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Which I love that style of beer, and this is
I feel like, approachable from like a light brown ale
kind of vibe, but it's got a ton of different
flavors that you don't typically get in American style beer.
You might get a little bit, but you don't get
this like full rounded Belgian sort of funky dark fruit
notes going on at the same time. That's a totally
(50:59):
Belgian vibe, which I appreciate.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Yeah, it reminds me of overwrite bananas, which is when
we first poured it, like I was smelling it and
I was just like, oh man, this, I feel like
this has major banana ether kind of notes going on.
But then you drink it and it's not overly sweet.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
It's it was fairly dry.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
And it kind of rounds out with some of those
you know, those Dungeon spices as well. Really enjoyable. Glad
we got to enjoy a beer from a brewery that
I've never I don't think I've ever had a beer
from these.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
Would you pick these up?
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Well?
Speaker 1 (51:25):
This was listener Todd picked this one up for us well,
and I think he brought this back from a trip
that he was on. I forget if he said it
was for a wedding or if he went.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
For a race Bargersville, Indiana.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Okay, yeah, so he was up there recently killed. The
label also had a he thought of us while he
was up there, which we appreciate. Yes, we had a
little hot of money running club thing here in town
the other day. And if you're a runner, you want
to go for a run with us, I don't reach out.
Maybe we'll make it happen again. And uh, we'll ripe
Todd and make him come back.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Maybe I'll even be there myself. Maybe, But that's gonna.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Be it for this episode.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
You can find our show notes up on the website
at howdomoney dot com. We'll make sure to link to
all the different spots where you can find Jessica on
the interwebs. And that'll be it, buddy. So until next time,
best friends Out, Best Friends Out.
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
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