Catching up to FI w/ Jackie Cummings Koski #848

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to had a Money. I'm Joel and I am Max,
and today we're talking about catching up to financial independence
with Jackie Cummings Cosky.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, nobody likes to be late to the party, Joel,
I don't you Probably You probably don't mind. You like
to be fashion ate anyway. But it gets a bummer
to be out of the loop because once you finally
do learn about something important like investing for your future,
you were then in the disadvantaged position of having to
make up for lost time. And I think that's how
a lot of folks feel when they first learn about

(00:49):
fire financial independence retire early. They're like, sure, if only
I had heard about this when I was in my early twenties, yeah,
I would have been able to pull that off. But
we're here to tell you that is not too late.
And our guest, Jackie Cummings Costki is living proof that
you didn't have to start investing like back in the
nineties in order to retire early, and having only woken

(01:09):
up to handling her finances responsibly at the age of
thirty eight, it only took her like around a decade
to call it quits, proving that you can achieve financial
freedom even as a late comer. Jackie is a CFP.
She's the author of the recently published Fire for Dummies,
as well as Money Letters to My Daughter, which she
wrote a minute ago. As well, she's co host of

(01:31):
the podcast Catching Up to Fi and Jackie. We're really
excited for you to share your story how you approached
financial independence. Thank you for talking to us today.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
Hey, guys, I am so glad to be joining you.
To you guys from Atlanta. That's my neck of the woods,
that's where I grew up in Georgia and South Carolina.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, you are a Southeastern gal, just like we're Southeastern dude.
So yeah, so glad to have you along. Jackie. You've
got such an interesting story, so much, so much great
information to share. First question we got to ask at
you when we ask everyone who comes on the podcast,
is what do you like to splurge on? Especially super
frugal folks. It can be hard to let loose to

(02:09):
purse strings, to spend on something that you care about,
especially if you're trying to go hard after something like
fire in a short period of time. But what is
that for you? What is the thing you're willing to
spend money on? Even while you're doing the smart stuff
with your money.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Oh guys, that's so true. I think for me, I
really like splurging on just having time with my daughter.
So no matter what, we get together once a week
and we go hang out at a restaurant. Sometimes that
restaurant is a nice, fancy one, or other times it's
just going to get beer and wings at like a
craft beer place or something like that. But that's why

(02:43):
I love to spend my time. And I think of
it Jackie, I know, and it's my daughter that's a
craft beer fan. I'm not necessarily like to me the
most beer that I drink, there's a cool beer that
it's a pint. You guys probably think that this is uh,
you know, soft soft stuff, but it's a pine apple
beer by aces, and I don't know if you would
even consider that craft beer. But my daughter's a craft

(03:05):
beer fan, not me. But sometimes we go there because
that's what she likes and we'll get wings. But so
it doesn't I don't put a price tag or a
limit on how much we're going to spend. We choose
the restaurant, just choosing something local, something fun. If we
want to dress up a little bit, maybe a something fancy,
So I splurge a little bit when it comes to that.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
I love it. So you said weekly, So is this
like a standing date that y'all have? Is this like
a repeating event on your calendar?

Speaker 3 (03:33):
It is? Sometimes we have to switch it around because
she's a busy little thing. And by the way, she
is over twenty one, so she's allowed to drink. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
So the reason I ask is because I've always wondered
because like Joel and I we kind of have alternating
date nights with our wives where the other comes over
to the house to kind of keep an eye on
the kids. And sometimes folks push back on that, they're like, oh,
it's just sort of like a repeating event, it's not
like special. And what I say is that the ability
for us to do it consistently, Like sometimes you don't
always feel like it, like sometimes you're not in the

(04:04):
mood and maybe you had a spat night before a
couple of nights before or something like that. But the
ability to sit down it kind of like forces you
to come to terms to sort of rekindle what it
is that you like about each other. Yeah, have you
found that sure?

Speaker 1 (04:16):
By the way, the opposite, The opposite that I hear
from most people is I don't remember the last time
we went on a date.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
The yeah, yes, that's the other extreme.

Speaker 3 (04:23):
Right, Yeah, I mean I think that's really important just
to get away from the house, both of our respective houses, right,
and to have that undivided time to just talk and
just kind of hang out. And also, I just I'm
pretty we live pretty close to each other now, and
I don't want to take that for granted because I
know we're not always gonna live in the same city.

(04:44):
So I just want to take advantage of the time
that we have together. I do think a lot about,
you know, the fact that you know, we're not going
to live forever, so you know, what things am I
doing to make sure that I have the relationship that
I want with my daughter? And I just I enjoy
that dedicated time. So yeah, it is sort of like
a standing date. And sometimes we might get really bad

(05:05):
and you know, a week has gone by and we're like,
you know what, we didn't get together this week, And
so we always try to do it consistently, and it's
probably the bright spot of both of our weeks, just
because we just get away from work, and everything else
that we're doing, and we go we hang out and
we don't even have the place playing half the time.
You know, we'll just figure it out when we're on

(05:25):
the way there.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, it's less about that. It's just more about y'all
getting together.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Thank you for sharing that. All Right, So we're talking
about your daughter, but let's not go let's go a
little bit further back. Let's go back to your childhood, Jackie.
You had five siblings, you lived in a single parent household.
I'm curious how did those early years affect your relationship
with money, What was going on in the house, and
how did like maybe your money script get formed early on.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, I think it had a huge impact on the
way that I think about money. So, like you said,
I grew up, I was raised by a single day
was six kids, So grew up in a small house.
It was just like a small two bedroom ranch home.
So I don't know how you squeeze that many people
in there, but he worked his butt off. And I
don't know how my dad even did it, but he did.

(06:13):
Like we always had the basics, but nothing more than that.
Like money was always like an obstacle because for instance,
you know, I never went to summer camp. Why because
we don't have the money to do that. I never,
you know, really got new clothes for back to school.
Why because we didn't have the money. So money was
always the broblem. But I did pick up some really

(06:37):
good habits, so to me, in order to have good
money habits, you don't have to be rich, you know.
So my dad, he had an incredible work ethic, so
I took that with me. And the other thing that
really stuck in my head from my childhood was that
I didn't want to grow up in poverty because it
was so many things that we couldn't have like everyone else,

(06:57):
and it didn't feel good, especially as a kid. And
so many things that I learned from him, well, really
everything that stuck with me, I had to learn it
in my younger formidable years because he passed away right
before I graduated from high school, about three months before
I graduate from high school. So I'm kind of amazed

(07:18):
that I still have all of the memories that I
have and just all of these, like I guess, characteristics
that I inherited from him and learned from him just
in those few short years so it had an impact.
And I just remember, you know, going through life, you know,
my decision to go to college, that had a lot
to do with the fact that, well, I didn't want

(07:38):
to be in poverty. I just want a good job.
And just throughout that just kept creeping in my head
that I did not want to be in poverty. Again,
I get.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
It, Yeah, I get how that would form, it would
form that kind of vein inside of you. But I
also love that you have such great memories of your dad.
Even like we want people to get their money together,
we want people to have a good relationship with money
and not feel like they're deprived. But it's also I
think important to note and I think what your history
your childhood proves is money's also not the end all

(08:10):
be all, and that you can have, you know, a
great relationship with your parents, great relationship with your siblings.
You can have a lovely, loving household without tons of
excess money.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, it's not a prerequisite in order to have a
loving relationship, which it sounds like, I mean that's something
that you've prioritized even now with your daughter. But it
sounds like, yeah, like Joel said, you've got fond memories
of your dad. Okay, so let's let's fast forward just
a little bit here, though, Jackie, can you tell us
about how you handled money in let's say early adulthood.
You write about you talk about the divorce that you
went through, and it seemed like it was like a

(08:41):
pretty dramatic wake up call for you.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Right, Yeah, that was a huge wake up call for me.
So I was married for about twelve years and at
that point, my daughter was about nine years old when
I got divorced. So, you know, here I am, you know,
thinking I'm on a shared journey, and after the divorce,
now it's just me and my daughter and I have

(09:05):
to make sure that we are going to be okay.
And it scared me a lot. But one of the
things that stuck with me at the time of the
divorce basically what they do is they any money or
assets that you have is pretty much put in the
pot and split down the middle. So in our case,
we hardly had you any money. You know, we're in

(09:25):
our early thirties, and we looked at their retirement accounts,
so that was about the only assets we really had.
You know, the house was probably upside down, cars had loans,
on them and all of that. So I had twenty
thousand dollars in my retirement account, my four o one K,
and at the time I thought that was pretty good.
I really had nothing to measure it with, honestly, And
then my husband had one hundred and twenty thousand dollars

(09:48):
in his four oh one K, so they're yeah, huge.
There was a huge one hundred thousand dollars disparity. And
of course I asked myself a million times, how did
that happen? Because our salaries were very similar. It wasn't
like I was a teacher and he was a doctor.
Our salaries was very similar, and we were getting a
similar match. And really, when I started digging into it,

(10:09):
because it just bugged me so much, right, and I
wanted to figure out, okay, what happened here because I
never want to feel this financially ignorant again. And it
was a series of a lot of little things, but
one of the biggest was what we were invested in.
So this would have been two thousand and three, something
like that, two thousand and four, so he had his

(10:32):
he worked for a very large bank at the time,
and in two thousand and two, two thousand and three
two thousand and four, bank stocks were like one of
the best performing asset classes, right and or one of
the best performing industries. This was before two thousand and eight,
so they were doing awesome. And so he had his
company stock inside of his four oh win k and
he had some other investments and mine was probably a

(10:54):
lot more conservative. Well, if you take twelve years, the
gap just grows, and that was merely what was the difference.
But I just never wanted to feel that way again.
And that was the thing that got me to saying, Okay,
I want to start to learn this stuff. And you know,
when I got divorced, you know, I had to ask

(11:15):
that hard question, Okay, what is it that I like
to do? What am I interested in? And one of
those things was I was so interested in the stock
market because I was afraid of it. I knew that
was a part of the huge disparity that existed in
me and my ex husband's retirement accounts, and I just
wanted to learn that. And so that's when I that
sort of started me digging in the curiosity to figuring

(11:38):
out my finances because I wanted to get better and
never feel the way that I felt when I discovered
this big disparity between me and my husband's retirement account.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
That's so interesting because I thought it was going to
be a difference in the percentage of your paycheck that
you were dedicating to investing in the four Wall.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
Game, but no, it was that was very supporting.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
And when you look at some of the data, that's
actually one of the issues that women face is that
they invest too conservatively, and that is that is just
something that happens along the gender divide sadly, and I
think what you do is you partly because of what
you've gone through within are also partly because of the
education that you have that you have pursued. You now

(12:19):
I think are advocating a different approach. I'm curious too,
what would you say to young women listening, because divorce
is so commonplace these days. How you know they're not
like hopefully thinking that's the likelihood, or or you know,
protecting themselves in such a way where that it could
impact their relationship. But how would you tell people, young
women listening in particular, how to handle their finances if

(12:42):
they are married, and even if they're in a happy marriage,
just to make sure that they're protecting themselves properly.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yeah, I think is important in marriage period. So one
of the things that we didn't do is that we
didn't discuss our four oh one k. And to be honest,
being that young, I was like in my twenties, guys,
I was so young, I did to even see the
four to one k money as my money because it
was for retirement, right, it was like thirty or forty
years away. So we never did sit down and look

(13:09):
at it as a whole. So that would have been
the big thing. And then you mentioned sort of that
gender gap there when it comes to you know, pay
and the way that we invest and things like that.
That was a portion of it. Because my husband started
to increase. His salary started to increase at a greater
rate than mine, which means that the percentage of savings

(13:30):
was more. Right, so even if we were both doing
ten percent, well, if he's starting to make more than
his ten percent is more than my ten percent. So
we saw that, and you know, I took time off
for you know, maternity leave. I mean back then it
was only six weeks, but you know, still, you know,
you factor things like that in and that could start
to make the difference. But I think definitely. And I

(13:53):
know that it's easy in a relationship, whether you're married
or not, to assign roles, like you have someone that's
in charge of the money and someone that's not. And
so even if that's the case, just like for instance,
you know my husband, he was the one that mowed
the lawn. I never touched the lawn. I never had
to do any type of landscaping or anything. He did
all of that. So when it comes to the money part,

(14:16):
that's just an important piece where you do you know,
as we were talking about, you know, having a standing date,
you know with your spouse, you know, that's something you
just want to talk about or just make sure they're
aware of what's there. So relationships that I've been in
since then, even though I'm kind of like the money person,
it was so important to me to maybe at least
once a month or something like that, just to show

(14:38):
where everything is at. You know where the money's at,
you know, here's you know, the things you want to
look out for. I just want them to have some
rud tomary knowledge of what's going on with the money.
You don't have to be in charge of it, but
you should know what's there. And what's going on with it.
It should be very open so that because anything could

(15:01):
happen at a moment's notice.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Oh yeah, we're not guaranteed health tomorrow anything. I'm curious too.
So you mentioned, you know, you're kind of talking about
your husband's four one K match as you turn things around.
Your company offered a killer four one K with an
awesome match. Tell me just was that one of the
ways you were able to just drastically. I feel like

(15:24):
you just took the you took the pedal and you
just like smashed it and you went full boar when
it came to writing your own personal finances.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
Yeah, you're so right. I did. And you know, once
your eyes are open. And this is something I tell
a lot of late starters because I was a late starter.
I just did my first network statement when I was
thirty eight years old. There's people retiring in the fire
movement at thirty eight. But that is a huge point
that once I started really looking at my finances, there
were so many little nuggets of advantages that I may

(15:57):
not have even been paying attention to. So the four
to one K match, for instance, so I was like
early on, I remember the match for my company was
only like six percent, so I definitely was doing that.
I may have bumped it up to ten percent. But
once my eyes open, well, one of the first things
that I did, because I was so interested in, like
investing in the stock market, I join an investment club.

(16:19):
It was with a nonprofit organization called Better Investing, And
that might not have been the first place you know
you should start when you're trying to learn about your finances,
but that's what I was most interested in. But all
this stuff comes full circle. It's all intertwined. So as
I'm learning about the stock market, I'm learning about compound growth.
I'm learning you have to invest in order to build wealth.

(16:39):
So I'm thinking I'm starting to backtrack. I'm like, Okay,
why am I not maxing out my four O one K?
Why am I not maxing out my WROTH IRA? Why
am I not maxing out my HSA my health savings account?
And the fact that you can even invest in that.
So all of those things started to add up and
make more sense to me. And my company started a

(17:00):
very very They had a little pension for a while.
Well when they sort of froze that pension, or before
they froze it. They gave your choice. You could either
stay with the pension or you could go with They
called it the enhanced for one K, so I'm putting
that in quotes, the enhanced for one K, and that
was it was super generous. So of course I'm hopping
over to the four one K. It didn't mean that
that was right for everybody, because people would ask me

(17:22):
what should I do? Well, their situation was different, but
the enhanced for a one k it was super generous.
If you put in seven percent, they would put in
nine percent. So yeah, that's huge.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
That's yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
And they were trying to woop people away from the pension. Well,
some people, you know, they just going to do what
they've always done. And it was I think it was
like ten years that they allowed people to still make
the choice between the pension and the four one K
till they finally ended it. And I you know a
lot of people was like, yeah, I don't understand why
they're doing it. I said, Well, to be honest, most companies,
when they freeze the pension, it's done and you can't

(18:03):
do anything and it goes away, and they will tell
you can do them for one K if you want to,
but normally you don't even get a choice. So the
fact that they let this linger on for ten years,
you know, that's pretty generous. But yes, that was a
big part of it. And then another part of it
was just the timing because I started most of my
heavy investing right around two thousand and eight, and that

(18:26):
turned out to be a really, really good time to start.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
So time Revian.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had this no genius or anything,
but I had the win at my back when it
came to timing and the stock market. I mean, who knew.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Well, let's be honest, so too, Jackie. It's not like
you were making five hundred K. Some people might hear
your story and they might say, well, Jackie's max down
all these retirement accounts. She must have been like just
super duper high income earner. And a lot of people
in the fire movement they there's the stereotypical software engineer
who makes like two hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year,
and so it's like, well, sure it's easier to save

(18:59):
fifty percent your income when your income is that ridiculous, right,
But it talked to me too. I want to hear
about that and how you were able to go from
you know, maybe barely hitting the match, having twenty thousand
dollars in your four O one K to accelerating to
where you're maxing out all those accounts in short order.

(19:20):
What did that look like? Yeah, maybe maybe just start there.
Tell me what that was like.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
Yeah, yeah, So I was a moderate income earner, like
for instance, my co host Bill on Catching Up to Five,
he's a doctor, so he's making doctor money, right, Well
I wasn't. I Again, I at this point, I'm a
single mom, so I'm not looking to climb the corporate
ladder or to try to eclipse one hundred thousand dollars
like that just was not my goal. Okay. I wanted

(19:44):
to try to, you know, be a great mom. I
wanted to spend time with my daughter. So my average
salary and I was in sale. So my annual salary,
part of it was commissioned and it would fluctuate from
year to year. What I did to kind of figure out, okay,
what was our earning on average? So I went to

(20:05):
my Social Security statement and I looked at my earnings
for the last ten years before I retired. I retired
in twenty eighteen. So I took the last ten years
and I divided and I got the average of that,
and that was eighty thousand dollars. Now, some years was
a little bit more, some years was a little bit less.
But I never made over six figures. So depending on

(20:25):
where you live. I live in Ohio, I would consider
that a low to middle cost of living area. So
things like the Big Three are fairly cheap. You know,
housing is pretty cheap. You know, transportation and food, so
those things were, you know, reasonable. I wasn't living in
you know, San Diego or New York City or anything

(20:46):
like that, so that had a lot to do with it.
And I guess for me, I'm budgeting is not my strength. Okay,
I wasn't the greatest budgeter, I'll admit that. So in
order to figure out my expenses and what it cost
me to live, I just sort of did a backwards budget.
So I took everything that I was saving, everything that
I was investing, subtracted that, and then I subtracted the

(21:09):
amount of taxes that I was paying, and whatever was
left that's what I was living living off of. So
I never really had to do the line item by
line item and trying to cut, cut, cut. I wouldn't
consider myself rugal. I'm not minimalists or anything like that.
So I'm still living my comfortable lifestyle. I never went
through and had to cut like that. Now, some of

(21:29):
that may have to do with the fact that I
grew up in poverty and I just learned to always
be efficient with my money and be very conscientious about
where my money's going. And I didn't want to spend
a penny more on anything that I didn't have to.
For instance, for my internet, Well, I don't want to
pay even twenty dollars more than what everybody else is paying.

(21:52):
So I'm going to do that smartly, and everything else
that I'm doing, I'm gonna look at it with a
critical eye and make sure that I'm either getting the
best deal or I'm going to buy it the smartest
way possible.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Well, it's funny because you say that you weren't a
frugal person, but it sounds like you are, like maybe
compared to other folks you knew, or maybe how it
was that you grew up Like you don't see yourself
as frugal, but like what I see as the definition
of frugal is just being incredibly conscientious and thoughtful and
intentional when it comes to how it is that you're
spending your money, Cause it's I mean, it's remarkable that
you were able to have this comfortable lifestyle. You weren't

(22:25):
making more than one hundred thousand dollars. Talk to me,
I guess about that. Like you said, you worked in sales,
like that typically means a pretty variable income. You said,
on average, you're looking at EIGHTYK in that last decade.
How were you able to handle the swings? Was it
by adjusting your spending? Was it by being a little
more strategic in your day to day spending?

Speaker 3 (22:46):
Well? When I did the math, I was living off
of living comfortably off of about forty to forty five
thousand dollars a year, so that you know, I never
always made excuse me. I always made enough to cover
what my expenses were. And the sales role that I

(23:07):
was in about sixty percent of it was my base salary,
So I had a really high base salary. I worked
out our headquarters in Ohio, so I you know, it
wasn't the one hundred percent commission like maybe real estate
or something where you know, some years you might make
almost zero dollars or make nothing, so I didn't have
the really big swing, so I didn't feel it that much.

(23:31):
But I always knew that I could cover all of
my expenses just on my base salary. So there was
some years where if I had extra where I could
save a little bit more, I may have splurged the extra,
or I may have like you know, just funneled it
into a brokerage account, or I was part of that
investment club, you know, so I was putting money in there.

(23:54):
So I never saw the big swings, and that could
be an issue for people that have the variable in
But I can also say that, you know, the eighty
thousand dollars you know, to some people that may sound
like a lot of money. It just appens, right, It's
in the eye of the beholder, and it depends on
where you're at. So everyone's a little bit different. And

(24:17):
you know, some people they work, you know, near minimum
wage their whole life, or they work in a career
field where the salary is not that good, for instance,
a teacher or a social worker. So you know, the
average household income in America is right around sixty something
thousand dollars, correct me. You know, you might have the
fact check me on that, but the last thing I
saw was around six so I was making above the

(24:39):
average household income in America. So by most standards, that's
a pretty good salary. And I guess the main thing
for me is that I never felt like there were
things I couldn't do. There was things that I thought
wasn't worth my money or whatever. But I never felt like, oh,
I can't do this because I just I don't make
enough money and all of that. I felt pretty comfortable.

(25:01):
And again comparing that to how I grew up, it
was exceptional.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, well that's great too. I love that you had
that mindset where like, I can do all these things,
but they're just not worth sacrificing what it's going to
take and not allowing my money to grow. For me,
you allowed yourself to do the things that you wanted
to do. You didn't deprive yourself, and that is I
think one of the common pitfalls found in people that
go into hyper frugal route and one of the yeah yeah, right,

(25:26):
and one of the things that people find them. I
think that's part sometimes of what's associated with the Fire movement.
You wrote the book called Fire for Dummy. So we
want to talk more about you getting into the Fire
movement and how that impacted your financial trajectory and how
that impacted your views on money.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
We'll get to more questions on that right after this.
Right we are back from the break with Jackie Cummings,
cost Key, and Joel. Like you alluded to right there
before the break, it's time for us to kind of
dive into the Fire movement though financial independence retire early. Jackie,

(26:03):
you you wrote the book on it at this point,
and like literally yeah, like I'm looking at it right here.
It says fire for dummies right here next week.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
We've all seen the for dummies books and to think that,
like Jackie's name is on one of the for dummies
book like that, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
It says a lot about you, Jackie.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
But you kind of identified how it is that you
were able to start doing the right things before you
found fire, right Like you kind of saw the error
of your way. So divorce kind of probed and caused
you to sort of reevaluate a lot of that. You
kind of righted the ship. But then it seems like
you found the Fire movement, and it also seemed like
it just resonated with you pretty deeply. Why, Like, why

(26:41):
do you think that was? What was it about the
fire movement that caused you to be like, wait a minute,
these are my people, this is what I want to do.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, it almost immediately resonated with me. And the main
reason was that, you know, and there's traditional personal finance
and financial professionals when they talk about retirement and investing,
it just always sounded so complicated, and you know, maybe
that was to their benefit because if you think it's
too complicated, then you feel like you need to use

(27:09):
a professional. But the fire community was the first time
that things were making sense to where I could easily
understand it. For instance, how much do you need to retire? Okay,
you can run a bunch of Monte Carlos simulations and
all the quiggly lines and all of that, But for
the fire movement of the fire people, it's just twenty

(27:31):
five times your expenses. I'm like, oh, I can do math,
I could do twenty five times twenty five Yeah. I
learned that in middle school, right, so I know that,
you know, forty thousand dollars a year about what it
costs for me to live and twenty five times that
is a million dollars. I'm like, okay, I got that
number in five minutes. You know, So that made me

(27:51):
very attractive because they were making it easy. No one
was out there trying to necessarily, you know, sell a
course or to make a ton of money. People were
just sharing, Like I found podcasts, so I really I
learned from listening. So I'm an auditory learner and also
I'm a visual learner. So when podcasts came along, that

(28:11):
was my preferred way of learning things. And you know,
to start out, you know, you had I had a
handful of podcasts. You know, back in like you know,
two thousand and eight or whatever, there was barely you know,
you had you know, Dave Ramsey, Clark KIW with Susie Orman.
You know, there's a handful more. Well as time goes on, Okay,
we're in you know, twenty ten, twenty twelve, and there's

(28:33):
a lot more new podcasts coming out in the personal
finance area, and they start to niche out Right. You
had the real estate stuff, you had the financial independent stuff,
you had the entrepreneur stuff, and then it started niching
down even more to financial independence retire early and like, boom,
that's it. That makes sense. And I was the I
can tell you guys, I was the biggest skeptic. And

(28:54):
maybe that's part of my motivation for digging and researching
the way that I do, because I'm about these young guys.
You know, they're making a lot money, more money than me,
their double income, no kids, and I'm like, and they're
in their late twenties or thirties. I'm like, oh god,
it's too late for me. I don't know if I

(29:15):
could do this, but I started. There were some people
that were very generous with their numbers and they would
put their numbers out there just online, like Root of
Good was one of them, and mister fifteen hundred days.
And that was so helpful to me because what I
could do. I wasn't just like them, but I could
make adjustments and I could say, Okay, I'm not making

(29:36):
quite that much, i don't have a partner, but I'm
doing this and I'm getting so I had to make
it make sense for me. But the fact that these
people were sharing their numbers, they were very open about it,
many of them. That helped me so much to be
able to outline things for me and to shape it

(29:57):
up for my life. And it was good to have
some type of reference point. I didn't have to be
exactly like them, but I learned from them, and I
finally said, oh, wow, this is possible. And it was
kind of scary really because the idea of like cutting
out from work earlier than we're all told we were supposed.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
To, right.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
I was told, you know, sixty two or so security age,
and I just never imagine being able to do that.
Like all these there were so many easy roadblocks or
easy excuses like, h can't get my money out of
my retirement account, so I can't retire early. Or I
can't get insurance if I don't have it through my company,
so I can't retire early. Oh my daughter's still in
high schools. So all these things, there were answers for

(30:41):
every single one of them, and it just started to
take form, and it was very empowering to me to
see that I could craft all this stuff myself versus,
you know, the traditional way of relying on employer having
a pension and you have to be there thirty or
forty years. So all these knowledge bombs was like going
off as I'm digging and I just want it more

(31:01):
and more.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
I love that because there's so many people who see
the Fire movement outside looking in and they say, oh,
my life doesn't match up with that person's life. I
don't have that sort of income. I have this sort
of disadvantage, you know what. I'm gonna throw that out
and say that it's only for the one percent or
something like that. And you said, no, no, there's ways
I can adapt this to fit my lifestyle. And I
think that's admirable because you're right, like some people might

(31:24):
have an easier path to get there, but it doesn't
mean that it's not achievable for a greater segment of folks.
As you know, it's not easy. It's not easy to
get there. It takes a long time, it takes a
lot of dedication to hard work, continue to invest those
dollars regularly. But the fact that I think that's why
I love your voice in this space too, because it

(31:45):
goes to show there are more people than just the
stereotype who can achieve it. I'd say this too, Matt
and I we like not love fire. There are certain
things about it that like maybe rub us the wrong way.
I'd say, like there's potentially a hardcore adherence that can
lead to some lifestyle and balance or maybe a disdainful
view of work. That tends to be the case in

(32:05):
some parts of the fire movement. So I guess my
question for you is, is the fire approach is that
the right approach for everyone?

Speaker 3 (32:12):
Well? I don't think it's for everyone, But I also
think that you cannot define fire in such a broad
term and assume that just because you know of a
few that do it a certain way, Like, for instance,
a lot of times, you know, the headlines in the
media might might focus on the extreme, and some people's

(32:32):
take away maybe oh, from this headline or this article,
this person's so frugal, they're all frugal, or this person
this person is a minimalist and don't want to spend
money on anything. They're all that way. No. I really
get put off when people will sort of assume that
the group is the same as a few limited experiences

(32:55):
or people that they might have read about or met,
and it's really kind of dangerous to do so. I
like open minded people, and the only way I was
able to make the movement that I did is being
open minded. So you could say that about any group
of people. You can say rich people are bad people.

(33:17):
Are there rich people that are bad? Yes, But are
you going to assume that they're all bad just because
you had a few that you know of that did
bad things? You know, all poor people are lazy? Okay,
are there lazy people that are poor? Yeah, there probably is,
But does that mean.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
That all poor people are you know, so I realize, yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
When you generalize like that, that just doesn't make any
sense because you know, you probably were exposed to a
very limited amount and sure that's going to shape you know,
how you think about it. But you know, the smart
person's gonna say, you know, it doesn't mean that they're
all that way and normally, and I say that, you know,
the ignorance happens from afar. It's when you're an outsider

(33:56):
looking in where you're really not digging. But if you
were to get to know a few more people and
dig into a little bit more, you see, Wow, I
met so many different ones like, for instance, you know
I drive a luxury car. Okay, that's probably anti five
or in the book I would call it by non
fire confession. But I don't think that I need to
follow everything that maybe a select few in the community

(34:19):
are doing, but they're allowed to do do it their
way and the unique path that they want to take.
Like there's no doctrine that you have to sign, there's
nothing that you have to do. And I can say that,
like you guys, I get turned off by the frugal
stuff and minimalism. That's just not my thing. But I

(34:40):
was smart enough to know that that doesn't represent the whole,
you know. And I guess that's why they have those
labels like fat Fire and Barista Fire and all of that,
just to say it's not all the same. You know,
when you generalize, it's probably not gonna that doesn't really
represent everybody in the movement. I think. In general, though,

(35:02):
the movement is very diverse, way more diverse than when
I started in it, and I would venture to say
it is starting to get into the mainstream. Like most
people that I know had never even heard a fire
or even know what it stands for. And I see
it in a lot more places now and the curious
person that's willing to ask questions and consider would this

(35:26):
be something I could fit into my lifestyle? How does
it look if I shaped it for me? Then that
is the attraction, not sort of looking at someone else's
life or generalizing the whole group.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yeah, I think that's when it starts to work on
a on a more individual level. And going back to
you talking about your luxury car, I'm surprised you didn't
mention that as.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
You're I know, I had a choice, I said, I
could even talk about my daughter. Can talk about that.
Of course I'd rather talk about my daughter. But yeah,
if you have a LEXC car, it takes you know,
premium gas. You know, it doesn't have two hundred thousand
mist a lot of people. And I'll say a lot
of people. Not everybody beating us up.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Jacket Rush Jackie, you're not really fire Okay.

Speaker 3 (36:07):
And here's the thing, there's always smart ways to do things.
So when I talk about the luxury car, I know
people have visions of m Lamborghini's okay, but that's not
what I'm talking about. Okay. My preferred vehicle is like Alexis.
Alexis is basically Toyota. Yeah, that's a great vehicle, low maintenance.
So generally I will buy I don't buy them new,
but i'll buy them for about half off of what

(36:29):
they call brand new I would buy it between three
and five years old and keep it for eight to
ten years. So to me, that's a smart way to
approach it. But it's not for everybody, and that's okay.
Like I'm not trying to talk everybody into getting the
luxury car, but I don't want anybody. I don't want
anybody talking me into driving a car that's three hundred
thousand miles.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Totally.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
No.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Again, it comes down to how it is that you're
going to approach your own version of fire. I mean,
and you're you're talking about challenging these assumptions that I
think one of the assumptions too when it comes to fire,
is how it is that folks who are seeking after fire,
how they view work like that act not like just
the job that they're doing, but the work that they're performing.
Because you specifically, like, just because you were quote unquote retired,

(37:09):
that doesn't mean that you aren't being useful. I think
you might be be working harder than ever. But talk
to us a little bit too. I'm curious to get
your thoughts on the value that folks are able to
put out into the world, which happens to be typically
through a job which also happens to pay you. And
so I think one of the one of the hurdles
and one of the difficulties of folks accepting fire is

(37:31):
the assumption that, oh, you no longer are going to
contribute to society, when instead, I think maybe a healthier
approach could be, Like, maybe what it looks like is
just transitioning to a job that maybe doesn't pay quite
as much, but that being said, you find it incredibly fulfilling.
It doesn't have to pay quite as much because maybe
you frontloaded the sacrifice and it can be a job
of your own creation. Yeah, So I guess I'd love

(37:52):
to hear your thoughts on just work and the ability
for even to continue to like stimulate folk mentally, right,
Like the challenge that work can provide you.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
Yeah, I think that's a really big part of it.
And for me, that's where I learned a lot, and
I'm still learning stuff every day. I'm still making mistakes
every day. But one of the questions I did have
to ask myself is like, Okay, since I'm getting to
the point where I'm I think I can retire early,
what do I want to do for me? That thing
was financial literacy and education it just made such a

(38:24):
huge difference in my life. Like that was the key
that I wanted to share with other people, especially people
that might have grew up like I did. And so
when I you know, as far as like looking at
a job, if you do what you love, that is amazing.
But in order to do the work that you love,
it doesn't require you to do it through a job.

(38:47):
You can continue doing the work that you love the
rest of your life. And unfortunately I did have to
formally retire from my company because it had nothing to
do with what I wanted to do with financial literacy
and education. And so that's something to really think about.
It's like what do I want to do And it
doesn't have to be some big, grand gesture. It could

(39:08):
be maybe just some small things that you've always wanted
to do. Like one of these things for me was
that right after I retire, I went back to college.
So while not going back to college, just not looking
to hustle and get a job. Most people that's the
reason they go to school, right they want to get
a good point of job. Well that wasn't my reason.
I did horrible and undergrad I went to Augusta State
in Augusta, Georgia, and I almost flunked out because I

(39:29):
had to work full time the entire time, and usually
it was like two jobs, like fifty plus hours a
week sometimes plus I was taking a full load. So
that was so hard and I almost flunked out. I
think in order to graduate you had to have a
two point five GPA. I had a two point six,
so I barely got out. So one of the do yeah,

(39:50):
I did it, and the GPA the DPA is not
on my diploma. So when I retired, I'm like, you
know what, I've always want to go back to school.
I wanted my do over right, So I didn't want
to get an MBA because I looked at some of
those classes they would put me to sleep. But I
found an amazing program at Kansas State that was for
financial therapy. So I went back to get my masters

(40:11):
at Kansas State. And honestly, this was the first time
in my life that I was able to go to
college and not have to work. And that felt really
really good to me. And I was very interested in
this program, but it was so unique and it just
hit me like, oh wow, this is amazing. It excited me.
So that was part of what I did. But then
I just continued doing the work that I love around

(40:34):
financial literacy and financial education. So I say yes a
lot because most things now are carved around the work
that I enjoyed doing with financial literacy and education. And
so it's fun. Like even in a given week, if
I worked fifty hours a week, you know what, I'm
still jumping for joy. Yeah, I'm loving it and it's

(40:57):
on my terms. These are things I said yes too,
and I'm gonna be okay whether I get paid or not.
That was a huge important thing for me because when
I retired, because I did not want to be thrust
ever again back into poverty. So I probably like I
reached my fire number about two years before I actually

(41:18):
retired because I needed more of a buffer, the peace
of mind, and I just wasn't ready.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, I was curious about that. Yeah, a lot of
people they reached the twenty five x expenses, They reached
that number and then they're like boom. They call their
boss the next day and they're like two weeks notice,
But you didn't do that. You stuck around for extra years.
Why did you wait? And some people call in financial
the Financial Independent circles. They call it the one more
year syndrome. Was it that or was it just like

(41:44):
I want extra buffer because I never ever want to
have to go back and do something like trade time
for money.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah, it was a little bit of both. And the
main thing was that, you know, I wasn't really even
comfortable with entrepreneurship, so I wanted to set things up
as if I would not have another penny coming in,
and my investments were built up enough to where I
could live off my investments even if the worst happened.
And you know, I retired in December of twenty nineteen,

(42:14):
so the worst did happen, right, COVID hit a few
months later, and so at the time, you know, we're,
you know, two or three years past it now, but
at the time that felt gut wrench and they're like,
oh my god, I retired at the exact wrong time.
But I was okay because I set up my I
had actually three months worth of living expenses set aside

(42:35):
that was not in the stock market, so I knew
that I was okay. It felt very unnatural to do
that because I was in accumulation mode, right, I was
putting money in and the idea of like not having money,
you know, invested somehow didn't feel right to me. But
I didn't want anything to come between me and my retirement.
So yeah, I did have that one more year syndrome

(42:55):
because I wanted to build a little more of a buffer,
and just mentally, I wasn't there like nothing is happening
until the psychological part, and you have the mental part, right,
So that's what I needed to feel, okay.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
Yeah, Yeah, Sometimes it just takes getting used to the idea.
Like you said, Jackie, that you're no longer in that
accumulation phase. I'm actually really curious. You quit your corporate work,
so you're no longer receiving a salary. You went back
to school. Did you have to start drawing down on
any of your investments or were you able to have
enough on hand to kind of bridge you until you

(43:29):
started earning some money as an entrepreneur after you hung
your own shingle. I'm curious.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Well, I did start to draw down, and that was
the plan the entire time, is that I was going
to live off my investments. I wasn't looking to be
an entrepreneur. I wasn't looking to make I didn't even
have like any real estate or anything like that. So
I did start drawing down. Now I've been retired for
about five years now. Every year has been different. So
some of the work that I do in the financial

(43:55):
literacy and financial education space was paid and is paid,
but I wasn't depending on that, and I didn't know
how that would look, but I wasn't designing it that way.
So everything I do is more of a labor of love.
And these are projects that I want to take on.
These are people that I want to work with, people
that I want to talk to. I mean, I'm talking
to you guys today because I want to talk to you, right, Yeah, if.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
You know, I don't no checks in the mail, Jackie, Well,
so I'm assuming that that does mean that you have
earned some money, So that I assume that means you've
been able to draw down, perhaps less than you had
originally planned, but but either way, Like, did you find
that to be difficult to make again, make that sort
of mental transition to that drawdown strategy? Essentially?

Speaker 3 (44:38):
Yeah, it was hard to make that shift, right, So
I had to decide, Okay, how often do I want
to take money out of my investment accounts? You know,
do I want to do it quarterly? Do I want
to do it annually? Oh? I think this project that
I did, I think that's going to be coming in.
So I'm having to make all these decisions and I'm

(44:59):
comfortable with it now. I mean, ideally, if I'm completely
just living off of my investments, I would do that
about quarterly because doing it annually is like so many
things can happen in the given year, and you know,
twenty twenty prove that. So I'm like, Okay, yeah, I
definitely don't want to do it because a weird thing
happened in twenty twenty where they allowed you to take

(45:19):
money out of your traditional IRA and not pay the
ten percent penalty, and so I took advantage of that,
and you know, so that was, you know, a nice,
little unique fluke that I took advantage of. So I'm
still getting used to it, to be honest. And not
only am I getting used to like making withdrawals from
my investment accounts, it's getting used to I feel like

(45:42):
I'm almost moving into this entrepreneur type of thing that
I never thought. I just, you know, I didn't come
from I wasn't around other entrepreneurs. I didn't ever really
feel like I had the entrepreneurial spirit. So that's a
little weird. I guess at some point I'll have to
declare myself not tired anymore. I'm not ready to do
that because I'm not bringing in the big bucks like

(46:04):
you guys. So I do projects here, the unique projects
that I want to do, but I've been doing them
more and more, and I'm like, Okay, at some point
I'm kind of gonna declear that I'm not retired anymore.
But not quite ready to do that, because you know,
even last year I did take I did have to
withdraw out of my portfolio. You know, I'm still not

(46:24):
making a left to live off of where I wouldn't
take money out of my portfolio.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Well that's the cool thing too about fire, and you
were talking about kind of choose your own adventure, and
it can look different. And for some people it does
look like never working for money again, and for other
people it's you dabble, and for other people it's it's
part time. It's parice to fire. I mean, there really
are a whole bunch of choices that you can make
and your choice to pour into this and and hey,
some of it's paid, some of it's not, but it's

(46:50):
it's all about the work and making sure that you're
spending your time in a way that's meaningful to you.
I think that's like a pattern that a lot of
people will want to follow, and part of getting that
is having the money to back you up to do that.
But we've got a few more questions we want to
get to with you, Jackie, specifically talking about post retirement life,
although I don't know you might be.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Moving out of that.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Actually we'll get to a few questions on that front
right after this. How we're back in the break still
talking with Jackie Cummings Coski about fire and hey, how
you can actually still achieve fire. You can achieve financial
independence even if you're starting late. So JACKIM curious, just

(47:35):
kind of like to set up this last segment, what
would you say to someone who's listening to How to
Money right now and maybe they feel like a late
bloomer financially speaking, maybe they are in their late thirties
or early forties. I see people in our how to
Money Facebook group sometime sometimes their early thirties, and they're saying, Guys,
I feel so behind, and I know that is a

(47:56):
common feeling. Especially I feel like you're drinking from a
fire hose listening to a new pots are reading a
book and starting to get caught up on some of
this information. What would you say to someone who feels
like that they're in that position but they still have
time on their side.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
Yeah, I think a lot of people feel that way because,
to be honest, up until a few years ago, in
most states, this personal finance stuff, it's not taught in school,
and a lot of times just taboo to even talk
about it at home. So the average person is probably
a late starter to a lot of this. Okay, and
I loved it. Since I love financial literacy so much,

(48:30):
I'll just why don't I give you guys a trivia question?
How many states right now require a standalone personal finance
course in order to graduate from high school?

Speaker 2 (48:39):
Gustin thirty seven, twenty five.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Wow, you guys are pretty optimistic, you know. When I
usually ask that, they're like two, five, eight.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Well's changed a lot in recent years.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
Yeah, it's been a lot. It's twenty five states now
require a personal finance class in order to graduate from
high school. That is a lot of progress, because just
ten years ago. I think it was barely seven, so
we've made some movement. So anyway, I digress. I'm sorry
about that, but there's a lot of people that feel
like they're behind. Part of it is because it's not
taught in school. A lot of times we don't learn

(49:10):
about it at home, or maybe we haven't had very
good role models. So when you wake up and you're
realizing this, honestly, that's a powerful moment in and of
itself to say, wow, I'm not where I should be. Well,
the only reason you've realized that is because now you're
exposed to so much more than you ever have been.
And I always say, you really do got to get

(49:33):
the mental and the psychological part together first. Like when
I got divorced, it took me about two years before
I started moving forward because nothing is happening until your
mind is there. And so once you're done with that part,
you really got to know where you're starting. So have

(49:53):
you ever done a network statement? Have you ever really
pulled all your debt into one place to look at
all the interest rates and see what you really owe?
Are you doing the smartest thing with your student loans?
You know? Are you on an income driven repayment plan.
Is that better than the plan that you're on? You know,
what assets do you have? Are you investing in your
for so all of those things. You can start organizing

(50:16):
and see, you know, what are my deficiencies and what
are my superpowers. So if you've got a really high income,
you know that's that's pretty powerful. So that might be
able to help you out a lot. And your problem
might not be an income, so maybe you have to
go you do have to look closer at your expenses
and things like that. Or if you are, you know,

(50:38):
making a modest income let's say thirty thousand dollars, but
you're really good at cutting your expenses and everything, well,
your problem might not be your expenses. Your problem may be, oh,
I think I need to do some things to get
this income up. You know, maybe you want to do
some real estate, maybe you want to go back to
school and get a degree, or maybe you want to

(50:58):
build a skill and be you know, a skilled worker
who knows but you start. Once you organize your finances
and look at where you're starting, it will help you
determine what is going to be the most impactful area
to start. And so those two things will kind of
you know, get you going. And I guess one little

(51:20):
trick that I found. I, like I said, when I
wanted to know so much about the stock market, and
I started with Investment Club, that might not have been
the ideal place to start, but I started. So think
about the thing that gets you excited the most. You know,
a lot of people really do love real estate, and
so whatever that thing is that gets you the most excited,

(51:43):
go ahead and start there, because all of this will
come full circle. All of this is intertwined. And if
you get stuck on let's say you hate doing a
budget and you think it's grueling, you might procrastinate and
you never get to it. So that means there's no movement.
But at least if you're doing something that you're excited
about it and you're really interested in your gung ho

(52:03):
about it, you're moving and you're doing something, and then
you can start to round everything out by touching on
these other areas that are going to be really important
as well. So those are just some of the things
I would share with someone that is feeling like they're
getting a late start.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Yeah, I think that's incredibly well, said Jackie. We really
appreciate your wisdom, and earlier too, he mentioned like what
is your superpower and for folks to be able to
lean into that. I think that that can sort of
help to orient like what direction you're going to pull in,
especially as you're considering some of these various versions and
flavors of five.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
I think just the way Jackie, you've talked about financial independence,
it makes it feel more accessible, like it doesn't have
to be one size of its.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Off, feel more normal. Yeah, as opposed to this sort
of earlier too, you said something about like it's not
like we all sat down and signed some sort of
agreement show, like there's now like declaration that everyone who
signs up for five that they're signing up to a tier.
To you, you can make it whatever it is that
you want it to look like, and you definitely have
done that. Jackie, thank you so much for talking with

(53:06):
us today. Where can folks learn more about you and
what it is that you're up to.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
Yeah, well, they can just search me on any social
media platform or my website. It's just Jackie Cummingscosky dot
com and I'm mostly on Instagram, Facebook. If you're a
corporate person like I am, LinkedIn is always a great place.
But also I host a podcast, as you mentioned, called

(53:31):
Catching Up to five that is for late starters for
whatever reason. If you're a late starter, that is what
we focus on. I host it with Bill Yant and
we have an amazing time. You know, the podcast just
took off from day one, but you can go to
catching updefive dot com find out more about us, listen
to the podcast. That would be awesome. But I'll also

(53:53):
mention that, you know, one thing you guys said about
making this acceptable accessible to everyone, that is hugely important
to me because, like I said, I grew up in poverty.
I know so many brilliant, smart people that also grew
up in poverty and was never exposed to this stuff.
So I really really want to make it available and
realistic for anyone because of me. You know, poor girl,

(54:15):
poor little black girl you know growing growing up in
the South that you know, managed to make it out
of poverty, become middle class and reach financial independence that
retired early. I'm not that special and I don't think
I'm that different. So hopefully more people will find that
relatable and will think, huh, maybe I can do what.
I just need to make sure it is crafted in

(54:37):
a way that makes sense for me.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
I agree. Yeah, someone, it's not about lack of IQ,
it's about lack of education so much of the time.
And you're right, what you're doing, well, we're trying to
do over here. It's all about educating people so they
can make better choices, so they can live a life
that isn't bound by the tragedy of money, mistakes and
debt and just an inability to grow their wa Well,

(55:00):
so Jackie, we love what you're doing. Thank you again
so much for joining us today on the podcast.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
Oh it was awesome, thanks guys.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
All right, Matt, Wow, Jackie is just such a breath
of fresh air.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Yes, she is.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
That was a great conversation.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
And she's such a great story you know, like like
I think that's honestly, like her unique story, her unique
perspective and how it is that she approached fire is.
I mean, that's why we wanted to have her.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
N A lot we can glean from the story, but
also a lot we can glean from the progress she's
made and everything she's gleaned over the years. Yeah, just
a holistically great interview I think on so many levels.
So all right, it makes it tough. I guess what
was your big takeaway from this one?

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Well, I just like how she just kept beating this
drum of you have to find your own version of
what financial independence is going to look like, and like
it was less about like the fire movement, I feel like,
and more just about what it is that you want
your life to look like like for her, I guess
we have to take it back to the whole fire thing.
But like for her, like she's luxury car fire, like
that's what she wanted. She's like, I don't luxury cars,

(56:00):
yeah exactly, but with then you know, I've got my
standards once I buy my Rivi and I'm going to
be unreasonable. Luxury car fire, dude buy a couple of
years old. Let's somebody else take that depreciation hitgel. But
like for her, that's what it was. She is not
willing to drive, you know, a three hundred thousand mile clunker.
And I think that's so important to hear is to
not overgeneralize, to not make assumptions based on what it

(56:22):
is that you've heard about fire, but to rather think
through what it is that you want your life to
look like specifically. And I feel like Jackie just did
a great job doing that, just pointing out the fact that, like, hey,
I was inspired by some of these stories, by some
of the data.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
Right.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
She mentioned even some of the specific numbers that folks
like our friend Carl mister fifteen hundred that he's sharing
putting out there because it makes it more real and
it helps folks to see that like, oh, okay, cool,
there is a small snippet that's a small example of
what this could look like. That's not me, but to
then see I could do something similar to that, but
my own version of that, how.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
Can I adapt as a single income and maybe not
as high income individual, like, but you can take that
as a template and then kind of try to adjust
it to your own needs and your own kind of
specific financial numbers.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
So that was my biggest takeaway, though, what about you I.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
When she said towards the end of the episode, she said,
the average person is a late starter, and I was like, WHOA,
I think spot on it. The average person doesn't start
investing so there after the age of forty matten. So
I think when we get especially people listening to how
to Money, the average listener is in their thirties. I
would say, well, if you feel like you're late, you're

(57:29):
not late in comparison to the average person who is
actually starting later on down the road.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
Yeah, or even if you are. I mean, like it's
like the average fifty to fifty five year old has
something like one hundred and twenty one hundred and fifty
thousand saved within the retirement account. You've got a Nessegg started,
but simultaneously, you know, it's much less than what it
is that where you wish it was.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Yeah, at the very least, I think just knowing though
that like, no, I'm not behind the eight ball. And hey,
Jackie did this from thirty eight to forty eight. She
did it in a decade, and she even stated her
job longer than she needed to. She was able to
make that much proger in so little time. So much
is about your mindset. So much is about educating yourself
and then starting to do the implementation. I mean, one
of the things she also said was nothing is happening

(58:09):
until your mind is there. And I'm hoping that like
this episode, if you are one of those people and
you're like, I'm like dipping my toes in the in
the personal finance waters, maybe this episode gets you to say,
all right, now I'm ready to go with like like
a like I've got a fire on my backside to
kind of move faster in that direction because Jackie's story
is so inspirational.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
That's right, All right, let's get back to the beer.
You and I both enjoyed a pretty bird pretty bird
number reference. Yeah, yeah, the actual illustration that's got a
little parakeet or whatever. Did you know this is this
head duct tape on a little duc dab ya collar.
But this is a beer by Gate City Brewing Company
here in Atlanta, specifically in Roswell, Georgia. What did you think?

Speaker 3 (58:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (58:51):
I mean this this beer had a really great mouthfields,
like really pillowy, really luscious. But I will say that
the flavor was good, not great.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
I thought it was solid.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Yeah, it had like a more tropical vibes going on.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
It was a more traditional I pa. And you know what,
it reminded me of what Hopslam. It had this kind
of like a honey sweetness, which was a classic, but
not nearly as big and sort of overwhelming as Hopslam,
but it still had that same sort of honey sweetness
going on. It just kind of reminded me of like
an old school I PA in that way, but very
very delicious. Yeah there's a spot for this being one.

(59:25):
Yeah yeah, but all right, that's gonna be it for
this episode. We'll make sure to link to Jackie's book,
her new book their podcast as well, and you can
find that up in the show notes over at how
tomoney dot com. So, until next time, best friends Out
and best Friends Out.

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Joel Larsgaard

Matthew Altmix

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Catching up to FI w/ Jackie Cummings Koski #848