November 22, 2023 • 49 mins
Here on the podcast we're always on the lookout for the biggest bang for our buck. Picture this: you, in the grocery store aisle, pondering the cosmic significance of toilet paper prices and whether the fancy stuff is going to be worth it! Or maybe you’re weighing a couple job offers: you're not just negotiating salary, you're out there considering the 401k match, turning job hunting into a strategic sport! We're all about optimizing our lives for maximum value, but are we extending this same strategic approach to the dollars we give to charity? Maybe... or maybe not! That's why we've roped in the philanthropic virtuoso, Elie Hassenfeld, co-founder of GiveWell, a nonprofit committed to finding charities that perform life-saving and life-improving work without breaking the bank. It’s financial optimization meets world-saving wisdom. Listen as we discuss the founding of GiveWell, the ways some charities have fallen short, SBF and his impact on effective altruism, Elie’s rule of thumbs for how much to give, if it’s OK to give locally even if it doesn’t have the biggest impact, and plenty more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're talking effective altruism and Giving Well with
Ellie Hasenfeld.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, so here are the pod, and honestly, in our
personal lives as well, we are always looking for the
most bang for our buck, and I'm sure you do
the same thing. Right Like when you're looking at toilet
paper at the grocery store, you are. You're likely glancing
over at the cosper unit. When you're trying to decide
between two job offers, you're considering, of course pay, but
you're also taking into account if they have a four
(00:48):
to one k with a match. We are constantly optimizing
our lives in order to gain the most value. But
are we doing the same thing with the money that
we're giving away to charity? Maybe we are, but maybe
or not. That's why we're excited to discuss effective altruism
with our guest, Ellie Hasenfeld today. It's not something we've
discussed before. Ellie is the co founder of Give Well.
(01:10):
It is a nonprofit that searches for charities that saves
or improves the most lives possible per dollar. Ellie, thank
you so much for joining us today to talk about
effective altruism. What it is that y'all do.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Thanks guys, it's awesome to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Ellie. We're really excited for this conversation. And the first
question that we ask anybody who comes on is what
do you like to splour? John Batt and I we
suplourge on craft beer. We buy the good stuff, but
we're still at the same time saving and investing for
our future. What's that for you? You're handling money wisely,
but you're also spending a ridiculous amount, maybe in one
specific area.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah, So the fan sporgeing on right now is indoor
ski lessons, and let me just explain that sounds great.
Let me just explain what that is.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Do you have to go to Dubai for that?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
No, you go to.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Downtown San Francisco and you go on a giant inclined
treadmill which you can learn to ski on. And the reason,
I'll tell the backstory, which is my wife grew up
she's a big skier. She always wanted me to ski,
never learned how to ski. A year ago we went skiing.
I finally learned. We ski together, and by learned, I
mean I'm able to get down the mountain now without dying.
(02:12):
I'm not athletics, so it took a lot of work
for me to get there. I came back from that
trip and my friends said, you know what to ski. Let's,
you know, take a trip together. And we went up
Toake Tahoe, which is near where I live in the
Bay Area. And on the second day, I fell, broke
my shoulder, separated my shoulder.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I wasn't doing anything cool. I just literally.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Am imbalanced and unathletic, and so as I'm thinking about
the winter coming up, It's like, how can I do
this not kill myself? And so found this place in
downtown San Francisco that does indoor ski lessons. I have
done a couple of them. They're pretty expensive. My friends
who ski think it is crazy and a splurge because
(02:51):
they don't believe it's going to work. You can find
videos on YouTube if you want to see what this
is about. But I am committed. I think this is
the path to ski success for me.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
All right. I love it. Honestly.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
It reminds me I remember skiing for the first time
as a kid and then coming home and that next
summer I got into rollerblading. This is back during like
the roller hockey craze in the mid to late nineties.
But I felt like the next time I went back
to the mountain, I felt like I was so good
because just like that parallel turning. And I don't know
all that to say, I don't know, maybe some inline
skates could do you some good.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Nintend oldever does that much from her?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
All right?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Plus you get that quality time with her as well,
little both and well, thank you for sharing that, Ellie.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Well, let's talk about give well.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Before we kind of broaden the scope of the conversation
now to effective altruism. Like it seems that like the
best things are invented out of either a personal need
or a pain point that you might be experiencing. That's
actually your story with founding give Will. Can you can
you share that story with our listeners.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Right out of college, I went to work at a
hedge fund, and after being there for a few years,
I was doing all the basic things that I needed
to with my friends, saving a little bit, putting money
away for retirement, but still had a little bit extra
and a few friends and I wanted to give money
to charity and just to give some context on giving charitably.
(04:11):
If you take home thirty thousand dollars after tax, you're
in the top five percent of the global income distribution.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Wow. You know, we often think about the US or.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
UK high income countries, but if you're at that thirty
thousand dollars level after tax, you're in the top five percent.
If you're at the sixty thousand dollars post tax, you're
in the top one percent globally.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
And so we wanted.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
To give money away and help people who were less fortunate.
At the time, we thought we would just go to Google,
search for charity and find great answers about which charities
are doing the most per dollar donated. But it turned
out it was really hard to get any information. There
are websites that focus on how much a charity spends
(04:52):
on overhead versus their program, which doesn't really tell you
anything about how effective the program is. So, as an example,
if you spend all your money on programs and say
you dig wells in Africa to provide clean water, but
the wells don't work or they fall into disrepair, it
doesn't matter that you spent one hundred percent of the
money on programs.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
It's not effective.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
It doesn't matter that you're a matter that you're efficient
at failing, You're you just you're better at doing that
failing exactly.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
And so what we wanted to focus on was effectiveness.
And what we found, you know, way back when when
we were just trying to give some money away on
our own, was that this information wasn't out there.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
And so after struggling to.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Find the information for a while, then becoming obsessed with
trying to find this information, I remember getting in trouble
at work because hold In Karnowski, who's my co founder,
and I would spend way too much time at the
office arguing about.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Charity and people are like, why are you doing this?
We have a job to do.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
But eventually we decided to leave our jobs to try
to create the information resource that we wanted, which is
GiveWell and it we do research on charities. We focus
on charities and low income countries to places like Subsaharan Africa.
We put that research on our website, We have recommendations
on our website.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
And the idea is.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
To be the information resource that we were looking for
when we were trying to give to charity so many
years ago.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's awesome. I love
what you've been able to create and specifically out of
like not being able to find that resource. But there
are obviously like tons of different approaches to giving, right
like giving to organizations in your neighborhood or even my
least favorite giving when you're prompted to at the grocery stores.
That is something that happens sometimes too. Right. So why
in your book, why is helping people the most per
(06:34):
dollar donated? Why is that the gold standard of giving
in your book?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
So I think, like anything, we want to get the
best deal with the money that we're spending. And when
I step back and say what do I most want
to accomplish with my charitable giving, it's helping others to
the greatest extent possible.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
And that was our north.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Star and the decisions that we've made along the way
that have created the give well that exists today, which
is focused on organizations in poorer countries, has all been
devoted to that idea of let's try to help other
people as much as we possibly can.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
At least talk about giving overseas. You mentioned subs of
hair in Africa. That's a big part of how you
do that right. So you mentioned how you make sixty k.
You're in the top one percent worldwide, So maybe giving
in America you're just not I mean, you don't give
to any organizations in America, right, because the problems overseas
are vastly bigger than what we're experiencing here.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
When actually, when givebl got started, and this is back
in two thousand and seven, we were looking both at
organizations locally.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
We were in New York City.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
At the time, so we're looking at New York City
based organizations and then also organizations overseas. And one of
the things that we learned we did not know before
we went in. Maybe we showed up, but one of
the things we learned was that the needs are so
great overseas that a dollar can go so much further.
And just to give one statistic that might help people
get in touch with this, one of the types of
(08:05):
one are the types of programs that we support, our
programs that reduce mortality among children over five, sorry under five.
If you're born in a high income country, you have
children born in a high income country, you have a
very high chance of reaching their fifth birthday. So it's
very tragic when a child doesn't reach their fifth birthday.
(08:26):
That only happens one in two hundred births in low
income countries. Thirteen out of two hundred children who are
born don't make it to their fifth birthday. So more
than ten times as many children die before they reach
that young age. And these are from causes like malaria, diarrhea, pneumonia.
(08:46):
They are preventable. We know because we do prevent them
in high income countries, and those opportunities in our view,
to avert deaths for roughly five thousand dollars is a deal,
quote unquote a deal that one you can achieve if
you donate overseas and you can't achieve that sort of
impact donating at home.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Well, yeah, again going back to getting the most bang
for your buck with the money given. And so as
you are evaluating different charities, I mean, this is which
I'll do over.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
There, I give.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Well, but what specifically are you looking for? Are you
looking to those high mortality diseases like you mentioned pneumonia,
you mentioned malaria, like basically, how do you decide which
charities actually make the cut?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (09:30):
I think the big question that we're always trying to
answer and grapple with is how do you really know
what's happening ten thousand miles away? How do you really
know that the money you're giving is making a difference,
is making a big difference. And so there's two ways
that we really get at that question. The first is
(09:52):
there's a ton of research done on what programs work
to save or improve lives.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Some of these are the types of diseases that you mentioned.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Others are programs that aim to increase people's incomes so
they can buy more of.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
The things that they need.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
There's a huge amount of effort that's gone into this
in the academic community, from institutions like the World Bank.
The first thing we do is rely on that research
to help guide us towards the programs.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
That are most effective.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
And then separately, we're asking the charitable organizations that we're
considering to direct money to, and we ask them, what
data do you collect? How do you know that when
you say deliver a malaria net or you distribute a
cash transfer, then it reaches the person who needs it,
that they're using it in the way that you intend,
(10:40):
that they're able to do more than they otherwise would
because they got it, and we use those two pieces
of data. On one hand, that independent academic research that's
just a big body of information that's been created over
time in many people, and then the organization's specific data
about their own programming.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
And we really home it on both of those.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
We also put a lot of attention on what we
call room for more funding, which means asking the organization
how they will use additional funds and then checking back
after the fact to see how they did. And when
we put all that together, we're able to identify opportunities
that are outstanding and enable donors to just have a
huge impact with the dollars they give.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, so, I guess there's a difference between dropping off
mosquito nets at the end at a village, like a
big box of one hundred of them or something, versus
ensuring that those actually get used right in a specific location.
So how are you vetting those things? Like you just
asking the charities, like relying on their word that they've
actually done the thing. Is it like picture documented proof?
(11:43):
How does that work?
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Yeah, So there's a lot of different things that happen
in each case, but it's a combination of understanding how
they collect data to ensure that the say the mosquito
nets or whatever the program is are getting delivered as needed,
and that can include independent evaluators, go back and checking,
includes photo documentation.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
You know, we keep aiming to increase and improve.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
The quality of that follow up, so you know, if
it's possible to do a you know, a GPS connected
monitoring of something that's distributed, to know that the person
who actually distributed is where you think they were at
the time. You know, all of that is one big
piece of it. And then on the side, we've also
over time done you know, gone ourselves and seeing the
programs on the ground where we get to uh talk
(12:30):
to staff, talk and see the people who are receiving
the program to ask them their experience with it.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Actually, many years ago we did this once.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
We send a journalist out to literally try to dig
up dirt on the programs that we have recommended because
we were like, you know, let's just do whatever we can,
because we really want to. We know that these programs
are happening so far away, and we feel like it's
our job and our commitment to donors sure that we're
putting in a huge amount of effort to try and
find you know, where the programs are working, but also
(13:00):
where things might be going wrong.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Like we want to know if that's happening, so we
can address How.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Big of a problem is that in the charitable space
in the nonprofit space, Like how big of a problem
is it that people are donating money thinking it's going
to something and ultimately a lot of those dollars aren't
reaching their intended purpose or or they're just an effective program,
whether they're ineffective or like you said, maybe the well
doesn't work or whatever, like where it sounds so good
and there's this awesome promotional video, there's killer marketing, but
(13:26):
then on the back end, like there's inferior results.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
So I think the truth is it's incredibly common that
we don't know, and that's the big problem.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Meaning people put money in and.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's basically impossible to know in most cases what it's
actually doing. You know, back to my story, when I
was still working in the private sector, I wanted to
give to water charities and I remember calling up water
charities and they said twenty dollars provides a held water
for life, and I said, well, amazing, that sounds great.
How do you know that and what does that mean?
(14:00):
And they didn't have answers to those questions, and so
then that lack of information is what's common. I think, like,
let me just tell one quick story because I think
it illustrates the way that this often works. There was
an organization called play Pumps that started about fifteen years ago,
and it was this this this program that put in
(14:22):
a merry go round that doubled as a water pump.
And the idea was, you install this merry go round,
kids play on it. As they go playing on the merryground,
it's pumping water into this water towel.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Interesting, and it all seemed really.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Great, right, you get this like double benefit. People just
have water access. Before the play pump, they had to
like go to this small hand pump and spend thirty
seconds pumping up, you know, pumping the water to fill
the bucket. Now it's just available turning this bigot and
so this was like a great It won all these
awards from like it weren't a World Bank Development Award,
(14:53):
was sort of celebrated in the international aid space. But
after EVE being implemented in about a thousand locations, a
couple of guys just were walking around in Malawi where
they were, and they noticed that kids weren't playing on
the play pumps.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Instead, women in the communities and is often women in
these communities who have to.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Collect the water, were walking pushing this giant merry go
around in order to pump water. And the guys asked them, like,
what's happening. They said, well, kids don't play on these
things as often as they would need to, and so
now we need to push this play pump in order
to fill our water buckets. It turned out that the
organization had ripped out the hand pumps to put in
(15:36):
these play pumps, and so you couldn't even get the
old hand pump way of filling your bucket. You had
to do this crazy PlayPump thing. There's a great video
on YouTube where one of these guys in Malawi actually
tests how long it takes to fill a bucket with
a PlayPump versus a hand pump. When he does the
play pump, he's like going around and around in circles
(15:56):
and takes some two and a half minutes. At the
end he's totally wiped out, breathe heavily, so sweaty, and
then it compares with to the handpop. You know, twenty
eight seconds later it's filled up and he has clean water.
And this is just an exact This is the exception,
this story, and it's the exception because we know it failed.
The much more common dynamic is we have no idea,
and that's one of the places that we feel we're
(16:17):
able to really fill a major need.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
In the sector.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
You know, we're we are not evaluating everything, but we're
able to find programs that we believe have a huge impact,
and then we follow them up rigorously, and so we
feel very confident that they represent amazing opportunities for donors
to have impact because of that work up front, but
also the follow on after the fact to assess how
well they're working.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, you're doing great research, especially you are auditing and
vetting these charities to make sure that they make sense
for folks like us to give to. So we're talking about,
you know, funding charity specific charities. How is give Well funded?
How are y'all funded? Because I think I saw on
your side that it says you're not taking a cut
or a fee of the funds that get donated via
give well.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
We're a nonprofit ourselves, and we're supported by donors. And
the donors who support us want to support us because
they value the fact that we're putting this information out
there in public. And you know, their philosophy is that
their donations to us are are highly leveraged in the
sense that by giving give well, you know, roughly let's
(17:26):
say five dollars to do the work we're doing, we're
able to help one hundred dollars be directed more effectively.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
You know, that enables us to not charge a fee.
There's no paywall.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
You know, if you went to our website, you could
read all our research, give wherever you want. You never
have to tell us about it. And we think that's
the best way to get information out there, because I
think appropriately people can be skeptical when they see someone
in the charity world asking for money, and so we're
very happy that we're able to just go to the
world and say, hey, this research is free, you want
to use it, go for it. You don't have to
give us anything because that's taken care of by people
who really support.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Our mission, Okay, and what charities have made the cut
the give will because I think currently you guys are
working alongside for charities. So it's not like you're spreading
this money across hundreds or dozens even of different charities.
How does a charity rise? And can you tell us
maybe about some of the charities that you're currently partnered with.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Yeah, So there's two types of organizations that we direct
money to. There are what we call top charities, and
there are four of those, and I'll tell you about those.
And then there are also organizations that haven't met that
bar yet but we think are really promising but really
pretty risky, and we also direct money to them, but
it's not where we recommend most owners give because they're
(18:34):
riskier and we think, I don't know, new.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Folks should give to the more straightforward options.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
The top charities are sort of like the investing analogy
might be the blue chip organizations. They're the ones that
have a strong record, strong track record, really strong evidence,
and in some sense they're the organizations in which you
can have the most confidence.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
So there are four of them. Two work on malaria.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
One is called the Against Malaria Foundation, one is called
Malary Consortium. Against Malaria Foundation distributes malaria nets that people
put up over their beds at night to prevent mosquitos
from biting them, preventing the transmission of malaria. Malaria Consortium
distributes preventative malaria medication to children under five to reduce.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
The likely of getting malaria.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Malaria is something that gets a lot of global attention,
but it's still the case that about fifteen hundred children
die every day of malaria, so there is still just
a huge need for additional funding in that disease. We
have two more I'll just say what they are very quickly.
When it's Helen Keller International's Vitamin A supplementation program. We
(19:42):
talk a lot about vitamin A or sorry, vitamin supplementation
or vitamin need in high income countries, but in a
place like Africa, it's a whole different situation where people
have severe vitamin A deficiency and a series of randomized
controlled trials show that having vitamin A supplementation from the
age of six months to five years reduces mortality in
(20:05):
that crucial age range by.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
A significant amount.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
And again this is sort of a theme this under
five mortality, where people are dying from preventable diseases, is
one of the places where we often find the biggest
bang for.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
The donor dollar.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
And then Finally, we are final top charities an organization
called New Incentives. They work in an area of northern
Nigeria where immunization rates for children are very low, and
they offer very small cash incentives to encourage caregivers to
bring their children to those routine immunization visits that kids
go through in their first year and a half of life.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
And these incentives are small.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
They're intended to cover the travel costs, the time costs
of getting to clinics.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
That can often be far away.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
We also have seen that program be evaluated in a
randomized control trial.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
In there they increased the proportion of.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Children who are getting all their routine imunizations from about
sixty percent meaning three and five to about eighty.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Percent four and five.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
So I had a really big impact on the number
of told them you were getting routine immanizations. This then
leads them to be less susceptible to vaccine preventable diseases,
and we think again averts a death of a young
child for about four to five thousand dollars. So represents
a really great deal for donors and an opportunity for
almost anyone to have a really big impact on the
(21:26):
world by giving to organizations like this.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I had no idea that vitamin A deficiencies we had
such a big impact on the life outcomes in poorer countries.
So thank you for sharing sharing all of those and
it truly is amazing that y'all have narrowed it down
to those four because truly they do have the biggest impact.
But we've got more questions for you, Ellie. Specifically, we
want to talk I guess more on an individual level,
(21:48):
how it is that we can make the most impact
when it comes to the money that we give.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
We'll get to all of that right after this. We're
back from the break, still talking with Ellie Hassenfeld about
effective altruism and Giving Well. And let's specifically talk about
effective altruism that is kind of the heart behind Give
(22:13):
Well in so many ways, it's about getting the most
bang for your buck, like Matt, like you said in
the intro, and like Ellie was just talking about with
how effective some of these nonprofits that Give Well partners
with actually are. And Ellie, I'm curious to me, the
big the face of effective altruism, at least for a
hot minute, was Sam Bankman Freed right, and then he
had this precipitous fall from grace. Do you think that
(22:36):
that effective altruism sort of mentality and approach to giving
has taken a hit because Sam Bankman Freed took a hit.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
I mean, I think the approach, which I would describe
as using reason and evidence to try to determine where
to give, maybe also what kind of career to work
in is I don't know. I think at a high
level like that those values are are great. They're values
that also animate give well in the work that we do.
(23:05):
And I think it's too bad that, I guess effective
Altruism the brand took a big, big hit because of
its association with Sam Bacon Freed.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
I think that, you know, I don't think as far
as I.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Can see that that the the values, you know, the
value of trying to identify great places to give, being thoughtful,
being deliberate, you know, the work that we do. You know,
we feel we feel good about how we've come through that,
and you know, we think those values like hold strong
and you know, plan to just you know, continue on
doing what we're doing to try and promote those values
(23:39):
because we think they're they're really valuable.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Okay, So, I guess while we're kind of talking about this,
there's another giving method that Silicon Valley seems to favor
right now, and that's thinking of business as a stand
in for altruism. You know that they can ultimately do
more good not by actually donating their money, but by building.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
What do you think of that premise?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
And I guess that also makes me think of just
some of the different organizations out there too that are
providing charity and altruism by consumption. Right, So, you got it.
On one end, you've got businesses that are building. On
the other end, you have consumers who are buying goods
and whether it's the buy a pair, give a pair,
but they're kind of conflating the two. I would love
to hear I guess your thoughts on either one of those.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Yeah, I mean so, first off, I mean, I think
it's clear that business itself has done a huge amount
of good for the world, and you know, some bad too,
but so much of the good things that we have
that exist are a function of people acting in their
own self interest. You know, charity is not the only
(24:40):
way to do good things in the world, and you
know there's plenty of examples of that, but just a
very small one is I'm really happy that Google Search
exists because that is an amazing service to me and
the whole world in accessing information that has a huge
positive impact that comes straight out of you know, people
acting in their own personal self interest, and that is great.
(25:01):
I think I get a little worried and have had
like less positive experiences with I guess what I would
call organizations that are really trying to focus on a
double bottom line, where you know, on one hand they're
saying we are for profit and we want to make money,
and then on the other hand, we're acting in the
social good. And the reason it's been tough for us
(25:26):
to look at and to really evaluate historically is anytime
you have these two separate goals, it's easy to play
them off against one another. So you might say, well,
we might say to them, hey, like, we want to
see better data on your social impact, but they say,
you know, we don't have that data, but we're for profits,
so we don't really need to have such good data.
(25:47):
And then on the other hand, maybe they say to
their investors, hey, investors, like, we're going to get you
a lower return, but don't worry we have high social impact,
and I think it has felt often like the ability
to sort of promote each goal independently has, at least
on the certainly on the social impact side not measured
up for us, and seeing that that social impact is
(26:09):
coming through in the way it is.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
And then I do think that often the uh when
when companies run campaigns to you know, buy one, give one,
or uh, you know, some marketing campaign of a match,
I mean I normally think about that as just a
marketing campaign, and uh, you know, they're they're doing that
because it will help ultimately, like bring in more dollars.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
And and I don't know if this.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Is true in every single case, but I would certainly
guess the vast majority of cases, you know, ultimately it's
a it's a marketing decision more than anything else. And
so I think the push I would make to listeners
on this point is all of this other stuff is great,
you know.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Don't don't don't you know? Business can be good too.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
And and if you find good up a product you
want and they're gonna buy one and give one, why not.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
But I think it's important to set.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Aside some part of your budget to just intentionally give
to help people as much as possible and really target
that at the opportunities that will help people a lot
completely altruistically. I think there are huge opportunities there, and
so I think all the other stuff is true, and
there's this opportunity to accomplish a lot of good with
(27:19):
charity that's worth doing as well.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, No, I think you're spot on. I think it's like, yeah,
build the business and then give money away. Hopefully you're
ye providing jobs, you're earning an income, and then also
you have money to give away to charities that matter.
So I guess it's obviously different in every individual's case.
But do you have any sort of rule of thumb
for how much you think individuals should aim to give away?
I mean, there's the ten percent religious principle of tithing,
(27:45):
but what do you think, like, especially since you started
out the gates with, we live in the richest country
in the history of humanity, and there are people in
other parts of the world in extreme poverty, how should
we think about our lot in life and then how
much we should be giving away.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah, I think you hit it spot on.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Everyone is in a totally different situation, you know, people
at different levels of debt, different levels of need for
retirement saving, et cetera. And so it's hard to have
a clean rule. You know, my family we give ten percent,
and we give ten percent, not actually religiously specifically, but
just because it is a big number for us. It
(28:26):
feels like we're making a big commitment and we know
at the end of the day, ten percent of our
income is something that we can afford, especially relative to
other people in the world. I'm not always given ten percent.
Another way that I used to think about it in
the past, it wasn't numerical. I just said, what's the
biggest personal purchase I made in the last year for myself,
(28:49):
I should be willing to give that amount to.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Help people around the world.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
And there I was intending to give an amount that
just felt big, and I know that's really qualitative, but
it got me in the mindset of this charitable giving
is a big thing that I'm trying to do because
I know it will have a big impact on people
around the world.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
It's not just something that I do on the.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Side, and so trying to think about it as a
big purchase was I think got me in the right
mindset and I think the biggest advice I'd give on
this is, finally, like, don't sweat it too too much.
We're coming up to the end of the year, to
the end of the twenty twenty three tax year, And
something that I've done myself and seen from so many
donors over the years is it's really helpful if you're
(29:34):
not giving, to get off the sidelines and give something,
and then a year from now you can ask yourself again,
how did it feel to give that?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
And what I hear over and over again.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Is people are surprised by how fulfilled and how excited
they are about the giving they've done, and often that
causes them to give more. And so I think there's
I think the biggest piece of advice I'd give is
don't wait until you have the perfect answer. Just try
to give something proactive, intentionally, and then you can always
revisit it in the futures.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Right. I love that.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Okay, so you kind of mentioned the end of the year,
the holiday giving season. Why is it that there is
so much focus? I mean, granted we're a little guilty
of this as well with the big write out Thanksgiving,
but is it just because we are coming up towards
the end of the year and it's sort of the
last opportunity to give to some of these different organizations.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
Yeah, it must be some combination of it's the holiday
season and so people are getting in the mindset of
giving and helping others, and then also the tax year,
you know, makes a big difference. You know, I know
that I always want to make sure to get my
donation in for the tax year to make sure that
I can deduct it on my taxes, and so that
plays a role too.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
It's actually interesting.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
We see a huge increase in donations via credit card
on our website in literally the last seventy two hours
of the year, and it's amazing. And so it's amazing
how many people are just trying to get it in
before the calendar year switches or you know, we'll get
checks that are dated December thirty first, when they have
a mail they come in the mail off as long
as they're like dated by December thirty first, they were.
(31:03):
But you know that's the thing that we see so
much of.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Well that's yeah, that's interesting too, because depending on how
much you earn and how much the way your taxes
are evolving, you might not even get a tax break
from giving, But that doesn't necessarily need to be the
reason for doing it either. But okay, I question for you.
You you mentioned how difficult it was for you to
figure out which charities were doing having the most impacts.
(31:27):
And let's say someone's listening and they say, man, I
love what Kibble is doing. That's so cool. But I
also feel compelled to give to charities that are close
to home. Right, there's a charity that mentors high school
kids in underprivileged situations in my neighborhood or something like that,
and I really feel strongly about that. How would you
tell those folks to think about and to maybe vet
(31:48):
nonprofits that are doing good work in their neighborhood or
or you know, in their municipathy. How would how would
you say, oh, yeah, look through these, this, this, and
this to see whether or not that organization's worth give to.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
So the first thing is just by being proactive in
that way, by saying I'm interested in this cause, I
want to help organizations doing this type of mentoring in
my local community. I'm going to go after that proactively
already puts you or puts the donor in a much
(32:21):
better place than the vast majority of people who are
responding to solicitations in the mail or from friends or
at the grocery store. And that is a great place
to start. And that is literally my first piece of
advice is be proactive.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
You know. After that, I'll be honest. I think it's
I think it's real hard.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
We have a post that we wrote a while ago
that are that's called six Tips for giving like a
pro and it kind of goes through some high level
questions that we suggest people ask. Our number one tip
is be proactive. But after that, we say, ask organizations
to make the case that their programs are effective. You know,
just ask them some questions like is the what impact
(33:00):
do you imagine the mentoring having? How do they know
it's having that impact? Ask them how they'd use some
more money. We encourage people when they give money to
organizations to give those organizations flexibility to spend on the
thing that they most want. I think it's easy as
a donor sometime to want to see your dollars being
used for a very specific thing, but that can tie
(33:20):
the hands of organizations in all sorts of ways that
are hard to see. You know, maybe the mentoring program
just needs I don't know, new cords for their laptops,
you know, to plug them in, and that sounds really boring,
but like they know better than you do what they
really need. So we encourage that flexibility. And then finally
we just think it's a good idea to check back
a year later, you know, don't just assume that because
(33:41):
you gave it all work out. I think the way
this process is most effective is when people are proactive.
Then they make they do a little bit of research,
and they give, and then finally at the end of
the day, they come back and they try to learn,
and that circling back is going to enable everyone to
give more effectively over the long run, which is.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Really the goal.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Okay, Ellie, I want to ask you a personal question,
because you're you're mister you're a mister GiveWell, how do
you personally strike that balance between giving locally then versus
giving in a way that you know is going to
save the most lives. Because I find that to be
a very tough conundrum to find yourself in. Right, Like,
on one hand, you know that this amount of money,
(34:22):
whether it's four or five thousand dollars, that that could
save a life, But on the other hand, you're also
looking to maybe some of the needs there in your
own community.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
How do you strike that balance?
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Yeah, so this is how you know. I've thought about it,
and I do give a fair amount locally. My kids
go to local public schools. During COVID, you know, gave
within my community to help people out. And the way
I think about it is bucketing charitable giving into different categories.
One category is support the community and the institutions that
(34:55):
I'm a part of, and I want to do that.
I want to be a good community member and a
good citizen, and I give there because of that reason.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
And then separately, I have a bucket that says.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
I, I don't know how to put this. As a
human being in the world, I want to help other
people around the world as much as possible. And sometimes
it's hard to relate to people who are so far
away the same way that we relate to the people
who are down the block. But you know, I've had
I've been very privileged. I've had the opportunity to, you know,
meet people in Western Kenya and talk to them and
(35:28):
just understand how they're seeing their lives in India. Other
places around the world, and when I imagine them, you
know it, really it motivates me to say, of course,
like the this is obvious, but they are people just
like us. They just happen to live in this incredibly
poor part of the world. And so I also have
this bucket where and it's for me. It's the vast, vast,
(35:51):
vast majority of what I give is going to places
where I think it'll help as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Yeah, No, I love that. I love that you're doing
both and yeah, what was it the Warren Buffett says,
you won the genetic lottery by being born in the
United States, and there's a certain amount of realization of
that and kind of connecting the dots from ourselves to
our brothers and sisters who live in other parts of
the world that we've never met and saying they need
(36:17):
help to Hey, Ellie, we've got just a few more
questions to get to with you, and specifically want to
talk about like donor advice funds and if you think
those are a good option for people to save on
taxes and a way to give effectively. We'll get to
come more with you right after this. We are back.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
We're talking effective altruism with Ellie Hasenfeld and Ellie. You know,
so just before the break, we touched on taxes, and
because of the standard deduction, for a lot of folks,
they're actually not getting much of a tax benefit, and
so there's no really real actual benefit there. So I
just I guess I want to ask a question as
to how it is that we are thinking about are
(36:58):
giving so like, aside from the taxes part right, and
even aside from the good that we're able to do,
whether we're talking locally or on the other side of
the world, like, there seems to be like an internal
change that occurs when we are charitable. When I give,
it's more informed by my faith, but it has a
lot to do with acknowledging I guess the fact that
(37:19):
what I have, my wealth, my income is not necessarily
my own. Do you think that there is an internal
change that happens to folks regardless of their faith, when
they're giving their money away.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
I just think it's.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Really important to remember how fortunate we are for being
born where and when we were. And if I had
been born in western Kenya instead of the Boston area
in the nineteen eighties, my life would have taken a
very different trajectory and that, like you said, is just
(37:51):
a total.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Luck of the draw.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
And so on some level, I feel like it's my
responsibility and my duty to try and help others. And yeah,
I think that when honestly, when I when I watch
the news and I think about all the stuff that's
going wrong in the world and how little I can
do to solve it, it makes me feel a lot
better to know that I'm able to send some money
(38:13):
to organizations that are doing the work that is just
reducing suffering and saving lives. And does you know, I
think on some level change how I relate to what's
happening in the world because I know I'm taking action
to make it a better place.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, And I think we're so it's so easy to
become self obsessed in kind of the modern era, the
social media era, and I see that in myself, right,
And I think the more we give, the more we serve,
the more we take the spotlight off ourselves. And I
think that's so healthy in so many ways. Right, Okay,
I want to know your thoughts on donor of I
(38:48):
phones because I think they're cool and they're a way
to maybe grow your money for to be able to
give more effectively in the future. And it's a way
to not like, say, you can't really like ren in
on that right, you can't like take that money back
and then spend it on yourself. So what's your take
on donor advised funds? And I feel like they've gotten
more accessible, cheaper for individuals. Daffy is one of the
(39:09):
coolest organizations in this space. Like, what do you think
about going that route in an effort to kind of
grow that nest egg so you can give bigger chunks
down the road.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
So, I mean I can't give like formal tax or
financial advice, but I think donor advised funds are very
helpful to people in the following way. I think they
do two things that can be real helpful. Number One,
they can enable you to give and if you are
going to itemize on your taxes, get that right off.
And if you're not to commit those funds to charities,
(39:36):
so you know you have to give it and you
can't just save it for yourself forever. And then the
second thing they can do is they can often make
it much easier to give a non cash donation. So
when I give I give appreciated securities. And the reason
I give appreciated securities is, you know, I give the
securities that I've appreciated the most. I get the tax
(39:58):
deduction on one hand, and then also reset the basis
essentially on the money that I would put in behind it,
and so I'm getting rid of the basically avoiding the
capital gains tax in a sense on giving those appreciated
securities away and donor advice funds can also make that
a lot easier to pull off because they're set.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Up to take assets of all kinds.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
But I should say you should ask a personal financial
advisor before taking anything what I said at face value.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Appreciate that disclaimer. Really. Okay, one last question for you.
You literally have a tab at the top of the
give Will site that says.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Our mistakes, which is it's pretty bold to air that
dirty laundry there. Why is being transparent like that and
being forthcoming about these past failures so.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Important to you and what it is y'all do.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Yeah, it's just really core to who we are as
an organization. We're an organization that is constantly learning. You know,
I think a lot of folks want to be out
there trying to claim they're good at what they do
before they really got there, And we just want to
be very transparent that, like everyone, we make mistakes, we
(41:06):
screw up, and then we are committed to learning from them.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
And I think having this tab up there helps.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
Most importantly, I'd say our staff know that at GiveWell,
we're a place that doesn't try to hide mistakes.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Instead we just try to learn from him and to
be honest. I think this is something that should be.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Much more common in the nonprofit world because in the
for profit world, companies are competing against each other and
you don't want to display any weakness because you might
lose out. You know, if you're coke, you don't want
to lose out to pepsi. In the nonprofit world, we
are literally all on the same team, like we're just
trying to make the world better, and in general we
(41:44):
try to share as much as we can. I mean,
it's true about our mistakes, it's also true about the
underlying information that goes into our research and recommendations.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
It is all up there on our website.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
We do that so people know what they're getting, they
can determine what they think about is. But also we
just want to put all that information out there because
if can help anyone else do a better job, then
that's great because we're all working at a high level
towards the same goal, which is making the world a
better place.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, and if you can see your screw ups in
real time and then you can adapt, like, you're going
to be more effective as you move into the future.
And so I think like, if it wasn't for your
willingness to look at those pass mistakes, my guess is
give we wouldn't be as effective as it is today.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Well, that's definitely true.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
I mean, just as one concrete example, if you look
back at the recommendations we made when we first launched
in two thousand and seven, we recommended former organizations.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
We don't recommend any of those organizations today. You know,
we've moved on, we've learned, and of course we didn't
do as well.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
You know, back in December two thousand and seven, we
were two people who had worked at GiveWell for four months,
so we weren't.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Going to make some great recommendations.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
Now we're a much larger team, We've been at this
for much longer, and throughout our entire history. We just
are committed to learning about how to do things better.
We've done that for a long time. I hope we
keep doing it for a long time. And I think
it's it's something that I wish was I don't know,
prevalent across the entire sector, because it seems like obviously
(43:10):
the way to do it.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Ellie, Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate
you talking with us about effective altruism. Can you tell
folks word is that they can go to a if
they want to give via your company, or be at
the very least they can just learn about some of
the awesome charities that are out there.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
Yeah, it's really easy.
Speaker 4 (43:27):
So it's give well dot org www dot GiveWell dot
org and on our website you'll find options to donate.
You can click through and read more, and if you're
not sure about what to focus on, you can sign
up for our email list and get a monthly email
of highlights from the work that we're doing.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
It's Kayler awesome, Ellie, Thank you again so much. Man.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Oh my pleasure. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
This was great, all right, Matt boy, that was a
great combo. I just yeah, I really like Ellie.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
I like dude, great mission. I appreciate the energy that
he brings to giving. Do you think he has to
be energetic in order to get folks to I think
you just ta get folks to be excited about giving
them money away.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
No, I agree. I think it's pumped and I think
it helps with what he does. But I think this is,
like you said, naturally a part of who he is
when you care about something that deeply it resonates and
you can't kind of help but spreading the gospel of
giving right, which is which is what he does. Well.
But what was your big takeaway from that conversation?
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Okay, Well mine is going to be so when we're
talking about giving locally to organizations that you care about
that have impact you personally, but then also your your
direct community, and finding that balance between that which is
not going to be an optimized form of giving, and
simultaneously holding that at the same time as you are
trying to find ways to give in an ultra optimized, effective,
(44:41):
altruistic way. Well, the fact is you can do both,
and I love that. That is what Ellie said. I
think there could have been a chance that he would
have said well, guys, you got to give the You
got to be an effective altruist all the way through
one hundred percent, because you know that every dollar that
you're giving locally essentially isn't nearly as as efficient as
that money going abroad, going overseas. But I really like
(45:05):
how he framed it, which is, we are citizens essentially,
this is how I interpreted it. But we're citizens of
our local community, of our town, the city, our state,
wherever it is that we live. But then simultaneously, we're
global citizens and the ability for us to make a
massive impact in the lives of others, other human beings
who we literally share humanity with that we share this
globe with. I think that can be a fantastic approach,
(45:28):
to have the both and approach, which is I think
how you've mentioned it.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
I like it. I like the kind of almost like
we do savings buckets, do giving buckets and say there
you go, and half my giving goes to the most
in the most optimized way, and the other half can
go towards organizations that are local that I've been supporting
for a long time. I don't want to I don't
want to rip all my funding out from those organizations
that are near and dear to my heart where I
can actually kind of see and participate in the good
that's being done. But yeah, you can do both, because
that's important as well. Yeah. Yeah, I think my big
(45:53):
takeaway was when he said charity is not the only
way to do good in this world, and he talked
about how, yes, starting a business is a great way
to do it. I think another thing I would point
people to is it doesn't just have to be money.
It could be your time that's given to a local
nonprofit or to serve at your kid's school or something
like that. I mean, there's all sorts of ways to
get involved in your community that don't involve dollars.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
So there's a lot of folks who may not have
excess dollars this time of year, right, and they're trying
to find ways. Well, guys, how the heck am I
going to be an effective altruistic Well yeah, like you said,
there's a way you can do that in person.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yeah, And I think you also don't. He's basically saying,
at least said, dip your toes in, like give a
little bit, see how it feels. And I think that's
good to kind of like we talk about with investing,
it's like, start with a little bit, twenty bucks matters, right,
and then you're an investor and twenty bucks matters here.
Now you're a giver, Like now you are a philanthropist,
and you can always grow that pie that you're giving
away in the future. But I think just getting started
(46:47):
is important too. But totally agree. All right, let's get
back to the beer that we had on this episode.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
This is an all around fantastic episode because we had
a great conversation, but we also had a fantastic beer.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
No, we did.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
This.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
One's called Chokable Hurricane. It's a smoothie sour by other
half or your thoughts, it's my other half. This is
a collab as well.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Over here it says it was brewed with their friends
at Drekker Brewing Company, which evidently is that a Fargo,
North Dakota.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Oh, I've never been to Fargo. Seen the movie? Seen
the movie? Okay, have you seen the show? Oh? Yeah,
it's like three three seasons. I think I saw the
first series too. It's so, I mean, great, all right
movie versus the show. If you had to pick, it's
tough because I went into that show being like, yeah, right,
no way. The movie is so good, but the show
is really good too, so like get held up. Yeah,
they're both great, okay, but the beer dude so good.
(47:31):
It was incredibly thick. So off. Mike, you said that
this tastes like a mimosa, and I totally agree, even
though it's trying to mimic a hurricane, which is like
the classic New Orleans cocktail New Orleans drink rum orange juice, passion,
fruit passion food.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Lime juice as well. So I don't think there's any
lime flavors, but the orange flavors, the mandarin flavors in particular,
totally come through. It's I don't know how to describe it,
but it's less bright and it's more of a fleshy
orange kind of not only flavor but also mouthfeel because
there's a good amount of fruit sediment in.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
This and this beer. But I will say it's not
it's not too much. Sometimes when you get a smoothie hour,
it's like there's like chunks and stuff in there, and
that's kind of off putting. No, this this has Did
you pour your entire can?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
No?
Speaker 1 (48:13):
I left a little bit in the model.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Probably did you get some chunks. Well, I mean I
gave it once I got a quarter of the way down.
I swirled it so I could get it all out. No,
I left like the last like I don't know, very
very small portion.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
I nothing goes to waste. I ate all my veggies
and all my fruit. Well, I thought this was delicious.
I was surprised them. Like other half. All I know
them for is IPA is. It's nice to have a
different style that they made and this one did not
leave anything to be desired.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
That's right, And thank you to Jason for donating this
one to the podcast. So Jason was being charitable in
a completely different You can it's either money, your time.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Or also beer or the gift a beer, yeah, the
best craft beers in the world. Make sure you sa
have a little room in your budget for that gift.
But that's gonna be it for this episode.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
We'll make sure to link to give well up on
the show at how to money dot com. We hope
everyone has a fantastic Thanksgiving tomorrow, that you are able
to spend a lot of time with your family or
with your friends if you do the friends giving, if
that's how you roll, But either way, hope you have
a great one, Joel, that's gonna be it, buddy. Until
next time, best friends out, Best friends Out,
Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're talking effective altruism and Giving Well with
Ellie Hasenfeld.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, so here are the pod, and honestly, in our
personal lives as well, we are always looking for the
most bang for our buck, and I'm sure you do
the same thing. Right Like when you're looking at toilet
paper at the grocery store, you are. You're likely glancing
over at the cosper unit. When you're trying to decide
between two job offers, you're considering, of course pay, but
you're also taking into account if they have a four
(00:48):
to one k with a match. We are constantly optimizing
our lives in order to gain the most value. But
are we doing the same thing with the money that
we're giving away to charity? Maybe we are, but maybe
or not. That's why we're excited to discuss effective altruism
with our guest, Ellie Hasenfeld today. It's not something we've
discussed before. Ellie is the co founder of Give Well.
(01:10):
It is a nonprofit that searches for charities that saves
or improves the most lives possible per dollar. Ellie, thank
you so much for joining us today to talk about
effective altruism. What it is that y'all do.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Thanks guys, it's awesome to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Ellie. We're really excited for this conversation. And the first
question that we ask anybody who comes on is what
do you like to splour? John Batt and I we
suplourge on craft beer. We buy the good stuff, but
we're still at the same time saving and investing for
our future. What's that for you? You're handling money wisely,
but you're also spending a ridiculous amount, maybe in one
specific area.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Yeah, So the fan sporgeing on right now is indoor
ski lessons, and let me just explain that sounds great.
Let me just explain what that is.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Do you have to go to Dubai for that?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
No, you go to.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Downtown San Francisco and you go on a giant inclined
treadmill which you can learn to ski on. And the reason,
I'll tell the backstory, which is my wife grew up
she's a big skier. She always wanted me to ski,
never learned how to ski. A year ago we went skiing.
I finally learned. We ski together, and by learned, I
mean I'm able to get down the mountain now without dying.
(02:12):
I'm not athletics, so it took a lot of work
for me to get there. I came back from that
trip and my friends said, you know what to ski. Let's,
you know, take a trip together. And we went up
Toake Tahoe, which is near where I live in the
Bay Area. And on the second day, I fell, broke
my shoulder, separated my shoulder.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I wasn't doing anything cool. I just literally.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Am imbalanced and unathletic, and so as I'm thinking about
the winter coming up, It's like, how can I do
this not kill myself? And so found this place in
downtown San Francisco that does indoor ski lessons. I have
done a couple of them. They're pretty expensive. My friends
who ski think it is crazy and a splurge because
(02:51):
they don't believe it's going to work. You can find
videos on YouTube if you want to see what this
is about. But I am committed. I think this is
the path to ski success for me.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
All right. I love it. Honestly.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
It reminds me I remember skiing for the first time
as a kid and then coming home and that next
summer I got into rollerblading. This is back during like
the roller hockey craze in the mid to late nineties.
But I felt like the next time I went back
to the mountain, I felt like I was so good
because just like that parallel turning. And I don't know
all that to say, I don't know, maybe some inline
skates could do you some good.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Nintend oldever does that much from her?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
All right?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Plus you get that quality time with her as well,
little both and well, thank you for sharing that, Ellie.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Well, let's talk about give well.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Before we kind of broaden the scope of the conversation
now to effective altruism. Like it seems that like the
best things are invented out of either a personal need
or a pain point that you might be experiencing. That's
actually your story with founding give Will. Can you can
you share that story with our listeners.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Right out of college, I went to work at a
hedge fund, and after being there for a few years,
I was doing all the basic things that I needed
to with my friends, saving a little bit, putting money
away for retirement, but still had a little bit extra
and a few friends and I wanted to give money
to charity and just to give some context on giving charitably.
(04:11):
If you take home thirty thousand dollars after tax, you're
in the top five percent of the global income distribution.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Wow. You know, we often think about the US or.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
UK high income countries, but if you're at that thirty
thousand dollars level after tax, you're in the top five percent.
If you're at the sixty thousand dollars post tax, you're
in the top one percent globally.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
And so we wanted.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
To give money away and help people who were less fortunate.
At the time, we thought we would just go to Google,
search for charity and find great answers about which charities
are doing the most per dollar donated. But it turned
out it was really hard to get any information. There
are websites that focus on how much a charity spends
(04:52):
on overhead versus their program, which doesn't really tell you
anything about how effective the program is. So, as an example,
if you spend all your money on programs and say
you dig wells in Africa to provide clean water, but
the wells don't work or they fall into disrepair, it
doesn't matter that you spent one hundred percent of the
money on programs.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
It's not effective.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
It doesn't matter that you're a matter that you're efficient
at failing, You're you just you're better at doing that
failing exactly.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
And so what we wanted to focus on was effectiveness.
And what we found, you know, way back when when
we were just trying to give some money away on
our own, was that this information wasn't out there.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
And so after struggling to.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Find the information for a while, then becoming obsessed with
trying to find this information, I remember getting in trouble
at work because hold In Karnowski, who's my co founder,
and I would spend way too much time at the
office arguing about.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Charity and people are like, why are you doing this?
We have a job to do.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
But eventually we decided to leave our jobs to try
to create the information resource that we wanted, which is
GiveWell and it we do research on charities. We focus
on charities and low income countries to places like Subsaharan Africa.
We put that research on our website, We have recommendations
on our website.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
And the idea is.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
To be the information resource that we were looking for
when we were trying to give to charity so many
years ago.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's awesome. I love
what you've been able to create and specifically out of
like not being able to find that resource. But there
are obviously like tons of different approaches to giving, right
like giving to organizations in your neighborhood or even my
least favorite giving when you're prompted to at the grocery stores.
That is something that happens sometimes too. Right. So why
in your book, why is helping people the most per
(06:34):
dollar donated? Why is that the gold standard of giving
in your book?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
So I think, like anything, we want to get the
best deal with the money that we're spending. And when
I step back and say what do I most want
to accomplish with my charitable giving, it's helping others to
the greatest extent possible.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
And that was our north.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Star and the decisions that we've made along the way
that have created the give well that exists today, which
is focused on organizations in poorer countries, has all been
devoted to that idea of let's try to help other
people as much as we possibly can.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
At least talk about giving overseas. You mentioned subs of
hair in Africa. That's a big part of how you
do that right. So you mentioned how you make sixty k.
You're in the top one percent worldwide, So maybe giving
in America you're just not I mean, you don't give
to any organizations in America, right, because the problems overseas
are vastly bigger than what we're experiencing here.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
When actually, when givebl got started, and this is back
in two thousand and seven, we were looking both at
organizations locally.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
We were in New York City.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
At the time, so we're looking at New York City
based organizations and then also organizations overseas. And one of
the things that we learned we did not know before
we went in. Maybe we showed up, but one of
the things we learned was that the needs are so
great overseas that a dollar can go so much further.
And just to give one statistic that might help people
get in touch with this, one of the types of
(08:05):
one are the types of programs that we support, our
programs that reduce mortality among children over five, sorry under five.
If you're born in a high income country, you have
children born in a high income country, you have a
very high chance of reaching their fifth birthday. So it's
very tragic when a child doesn't reach their fifth birthday.
(08:26):
That only happens one in two hundred births in low
income countries. Thirteen out of two hundred children who are
born don't make it to their fifth birthday. So more
than ten times as many children die before they reach
that young age. And these are from causes like malaria, diarrhea, pneumonia.
(08:46):
They are preventable. We know because we do prevent them
in high income countries, and those opportunities in our view,
to avert deaths for roughly five thousand dollars is a deal,
quote unquote a deal that one you can achieve if
you donate overseas and you can't achieve that sort of
impact donating at home.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Well, yeah, again going back to getting the most bang
for your buck with the money given. And so as
you are evaluating different charities, I mean, this is which
I'll do over.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
There, I give.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Well, but what specifically are you looking for? Are you
looking to those high mortality diseases like you mentioned pneumonia,
you mentioned malaria, like basically, how do you decide which
charities actually make the cut?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (09:30):
I think the big question that we're always trying to
answer and grapple with is how do you really know
what's happening ten thousand miles away? How do you really
know that the money you're giving is making a difference,
is making a big difference. And so there's two ways
that we really get at that question. The first is
(09:52):
there's a ton of research done on what programs work
to save or improve lives.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Some of these are the types of diseases that you mentioned.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Others are programs that aim to increase people's incomes so
they can buy more of.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
The things that they need.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
There's a huge amount of effort that's gone into this
in the academic community, from institutions like the World Bank.
The first thing we do is rely on that research
to help guide us towards the programs.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
That are most effective.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
And then separately, we're asking the charitable organizations that we're
considering to direct money to, and we ask them, what
data do you collect? How do you know that when
you say deliver a malaria net or you distribute a
cash transfer, then it reaches the person who needs it,
that they're using it in the way that you intend,
(10:40):
that they're able to do more than they otherwise would
because they got it, and we use those two pieces
of data. On one hand, that independent academic research that's
just a big body of information that's been created over
time in many people, and then the organization's specific data
about their own programming.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
And we really home it on both of those.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
We also put a lot of attention on what we
call room for more funding, which means asking the organization
how they will use additional funds and then checking back
after the fact to see how they did. And when
we put all that together, we're able to identify opportunities
that are outstanding and enable donors to just have a
huge impact with the dollars they give.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, so, I guess there's a difference between dropping off
mosquito nets at the end at a village, like a
big box of one hundred of them or something, versus
ensuring that those actually get used right in a specific location.
So how are you vetting those things? Like you just
asking the charities, like relying on their word that they've
actually done the thing. Is it like picture documented proof?
(11:43):
How does that work?
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Yeah, So there's a lot of different things that happen
in each case, but it's a combination of understanding how
they collect data to ensure that the say the mosquito
nets or whatever the program is are getting delivered as needed,
and that can include independent evaluators, go back and checking,
includes photo documentation.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
You know, we keep aiming to increase and improve.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
The quality of that follow up, so you know, if
it's possible to do a you know, a GPS connected
monitoring of something that's distributed, to know that the person
who actually distributed is where you think they were at
the time. You know, all of that is one big
piece of it. And then on the side, we've also
over time done you know, gone ourselves and seeing the
programs on the ground where we get to uh talk
(12:30):
to staff, talk and see the people who are receiving
the program to ask them their experience with it.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Actually, many years ago we did this once.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
We send a journalist out to literally try to dig
up dirt on the programs that we have recommended because
we were like, you know, let's just do whatever we can,
because we really want to. We know that these programs
are happening so far away, and we feel like it's
our job and our commitment to donors sure that we're
putting in a huge amount of effort to try and
find you know, where the programs are working, but also
(13:00):
where things might be going wrong.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Like we want to know if that's happening, so we
can address How.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Big of a problem is that in the charitable space
in the nonprofit space, Like how big of a problem
is it that people are donating money thinking it's going
to something and ultimately a lot of those dollars aren't
reaching their intended purpose or or they're just an effective program,
whether they're ineffective or like you said, maybe the well
doesn't work or whatever, like where it sounds so good
and there's this awesome promotional video, there's killer marketing, but
(13:26):
then on the back end, like there's inferior results.
Speaker 4 (13:29):
So I think the truth is it's incredibly common that
we don't know, and that's the big problem.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Meaning people put money in and.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's basically impossible to know in most cases what it's
actually doing. You know, back to my story, when I
was still working in the private sector, I wanted to
give to water charities and I remember calling up water
charities and they said twenty dollars provides a held water
for life, and I said, well, amazing, that sounds great.
How do you know that and what does that mean?
(14:00):
And they didn't have answers to those questions, and so
then that lack of information is what's common. I think, like,
let me just tell one quick story because I think
it illustrates the way that this often works. There was
an organization called play Pumps that started about fifteen years ago,
and it was this this this program that put in
(14:22):
a merry go round that doubled as a water pump.
And the idea was, you install this merry go round,
kids play on it. As they go playing on the merryground,
it's pumping water into this water towel.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Interesting, and it all seemed really.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Great, right, you get this like double benefit. People just
have water access. Before the play pump, they had to
like go to this small hand pump and spend thirty
seconds pumping up, you know, pumping the water to fill
the bucket. Now it's just available turning this bigot and
so this was like a great It won all these
awards from like it weren't a World Bank Development Award,
(14:53):
was sort of celebrated in the international aid space. But
after EVE being implemented in about a thousand locations, a
couple of guys just were walking around in Malawi where
they were, and they noticed that kids weren't playing on
the play pumps.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Instead, women in the communities and is often women in
these communities who have to.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Collect the water, were walking pushing this giant merry go
around in order to pump water. And the guys asked them, like,
what's happening. They said, well, kids don't play on these
things as often as they would need to, and so
now we need to push this play pump in order
to fill our water buckets. It turned out that the
organization had ripped out the hand pumps to put in
(15:36):
these play pumps, and so you couldn't even get the
old hand pump way of filling your bucket. You had
to do this crazy PlayPump thing. There's a great video
on YouTube where one of these guys in Malawi actually
tests how long it takes to fill a bucket with
a PlayPump versus a hand pump. When he does the
play pump, he's like going around and around in circles
(15:56):
and takes some two and a half minutes. At the
end he's totally wiped out, breathe heavily, so sweaty, and
then it compares with to the handpop. You know, twenty
eight seconds later it's filled up and he has clean water.
And this is just an exact This is the exception,
this story, and it's the exception because we know it failed.
The much more common dynamic is we have no idea,
and that's one of the places that we feel we're
(16:17):
able to really fill a major need.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
In the sector.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
You know, we're we are not evaluating everything, but we're
able to find programs that we believe have a huge impact,
and then we follow them up rigorously, and so we
feel very confident that they represent amazing opportunities for donors
to have impact because of that work up front, but
also the follow on after the fact to assess how
well they're working.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Yeah, you're doing great research, especially you are auditing and
vetting these charities to make sure that they make sense
for folks like us to give to. So we're talking about,
you know, funding charity specific charities. How is give Well funded?
How are y'all funded? Because I think I saw on
your side that it says you're not taking a cut
or a fee of the funds that get donated via
give well.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
We're a nonprofit ourselves, and we're supported by donors. And
the donors who support us want to support us because
they value the fact that we're putting this information out
there in public. And you know, their philosophy is that
their donations to us are are highly leveraged in the
sense that by giving give well, you know, roughly let's
(17:26):
say five dollars to do the work we're doing, we're
able to help one hundred dollars be directed more effectively.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
You know, that enables us to not charge a fee.
There's no paywall.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
You know, if you went to our website, you could
read all our research, give wherever you want. You never
have to tell us about it. And we think that's
the best way to get information out there, because I
think appropriately people can be skeptical when they see someone
in the charity world asking for money, and so we're
very happy that we're able to just go to the
world and say, hey, this research is free, you want
to use it, go for it. You don't have to
give us anything because that's taken care of by people
who really support.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Our mission, Okay, and what charities have made the cut
the give will because I think currently you guys are
working alongside for charities. So it's not like you're spreading
this money across hundreds or dozens even of different charities.
How does a charity rise? And can you tell us
maybe about some of the charities that you're currently partnered with.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Yeah, So there's two types of organizations that we direct
money to. There are what we call top charities, and
there are four of those, and I'll tell you about those.
And then there are also organizations that haven't met that
bar yet but we think are really promising but really
pretty risky, and we also direct money to them, but
it's not where we recommend most owners give because they're
(18:34):
riskier and we think, I don't know, new.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Folks should give to the more straightforward options.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
The top charities are sort of like the investing analogy
might be the blue chip organizations. They're the ones that
have a strong record, strong track record, really strong evidence,
and in some sense they're the organizations in which you
can have the most confidence.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
So there are four of them. Two work on malaria.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
One is called the Against Malaria Foundation, one is called
Malary Consortium. Against Malaria Foundation distributes malaria nets that people
put up over their beds at night to prevent mosquitos
from biting them, preventing the transmission of malaria. Malaria Consortium
distributes preventative malaria medication to children under five to reduce.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
The likely of getting malaria.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Malaria is something that gets a lot of global attention,
but it's still the case that about fifteen hundred children
die every day of malaria, so there is still just
a huge need for additional funding in that disease. We
have two more I'll just say what they are very quickly.
When it's Helen Keller International's Vitamin A supplementation program. We
(19:42):
talk a lot about vitamin A or sorry, vitamin supplementation
or vitamin need in high income countries, but in a
place like Africa, it's a whole different situation where people
have severe vitamin A deficiency and a series of randomized
controlled trials show that having vitamin A supplementation from the
age of six months to five years reduces mortality in
(20:05):
that crucial age range by.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
A significant amount.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
And again this is sort of a theme this under
five mortality, where people are dying from preventable diseases, is
one of the places where we often find the biggest
bang for.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
The donor dollar.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
And then Finally, we are final top charities an organization
called New Incentives. They work in an area of northern
Nigeria where immunization rates for children are very low, and
they offer very small cash incentives to encourage caregivers to
bring their children to those routine immunization visits that kids
go through in their first year and a half of life.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
And these incentives are small.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
They're intended to cover the travel costs, the time costs
of getting to clinics.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
That can often be far away.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
We also have seen that program be evaluated in a
randomized control trial.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
In there they increased the proportion of.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Children who are getting all their routine imunizations from about
sixty percent meaning three and five to about eighty.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Percent four and five.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
So I had a really big impact on the number
of told them you were getting routine immanizations. This then
leads them to be less susceptible to vaccine preventable diseases,
and we think again averts a death of a young
child for about four to five thousand dollars. So represents
a really great deal for donors and an opportunity for
almost anyone to have a really big impact on the
(21:26):
world by giving to organizations like this.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I had no idea that vitamin A deficiencies we had
such a big impact on the life outcomes in poorer countries.
So thank you for sharing sharing all of those and
it truly is amazing that y'all have narrowed it down
to those four because truly they do have the biggest impact.
But we've got more questions for you, Ellie. Specifically, we
want to talk I guess more on an individual level,
(21:48):
how it is that we can make the most impact
when it comes to the money that we give.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
We'll get to all of that right after this. We're
back from the break, still talking with Ellie Hassenfeld about
effective altruism and Giving Well. And let's specifically talk about
effective altruism that is kind of the heart behind Give
(22:13):
Well in so many ways, it's about getting the most
bang for your buck, like Matt, like you said in
the intro, and like Ellie was just talking about with
how effective some of these nonprofits that Give Well partners
with actually are. And Ellie, I'm curious to me, the
big the face of effective altruism, at least for a
hot minute, was Sam Bankman Freed right, and then he
had this precipitous fall from grace. Do you think that
(22:36):
that effective altruism sort of mentality and approach to giving
has taken a hit because Sam Bankman Freed took a hit.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
I mean, I think the approach, which I would describe
as using reason and evidence to try to determine where
to give, maybe also what kind of career to work
in is I don't know. I think at a high
level like that those values are are great. They're values
that also animate give well in the work that we do.
(23:05):
And I think it's too bad that, I guess effective
Altruism the brand took a big, big hit because of
its association with Sam Bacon Freed.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
I think that, you know, I don't think as far
as I.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Can see that that the the values, you know, the
value of trying to identify great places to give, being thoughtful,
being deliberate, you know, the work that we do. You know,
we feel we feel good about how we've come through that,
and you know, we think those values like hold strong
and you know, plan to just you know, continue on
doing what we're doing to try and promote those values
(23:39):
because we think they're they're really valuable.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Okay, So, I guess while we're kind of talking about this,
there's another giving method that Silicon Valley seems to favor
right now, and that's thinking of business as a stand
in for altruism. You know that they can ultimately do
more good not by actually donating their money, but by building.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
What do you think of that premise?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
And I guess that also makes me think of just
some of the different organizations out there too that are
providing charity and altruism by consumption. Right, So, you got it.
On one end, you've got businesses that are building. On
the other end, you have consumers who are buying goods
and whether it's the buy a pair, give a pair,
but they're kind of conflating the two. I would love
to hear I guess your thoughts on either one of those.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Yeah, I mean so, first off, I mean, I think
it's clear that business itself has done a huge amount
of good for the world, and you know, some bad too,
but so much of the good things that we have
that exist are a function of people acting in their
own self interest. You know, charity is not the only
(24:40):
way to do good things in the world, and you
know there's plenty of examples of that, but just a
very small one is I'm really happy that Google Search
exists because that is an amazing service to me and
the whole world in accessing information that has a huge
positive impact that comes straight out of you know, people
acting in their own personal self interest, and that is great.
(25:01):
I think I get a little worried and have had
like less positive experiences with I guess what I would
call organizations that are really trying to focus on a
double bottom line, where you know, on one hand they're
saying we are for profit and we want to make money,
and then on the other hand, we're acting in the
social good. And the reason it's been tough for us
(25:26):
to look at and to really evaluate historically is anytime
you have these two separate goals, it's easy to play
them off against one another. So you might say, well,
we might say to them, hey, like, we want to
see better data on your social impact, but they say,
you know, we don't have that data, but we're for profits,
so we don't really need to have such good data.
(25:47):
And then on the other hand, maybe they say to
their investors, hey, investors, like, we're going to get you
a lower return, but don't worry we have high social impact,
and I think it has felt often like the ability
to sort of promote each goal independently has, at least
on the certainly on the social impact side not measured
up for us, and seeing that that social impact is
(26:09):
coming through in the way it is.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
And then I do think that often the uh when
when companies run campaigns to you know, buy one, give one,
or uh, you know, some marketing campaign of a match,
I mean I normally think about that as just a
marketing campaign, and uh, you know, they're they're doing that
because it will help ultimately, like bring in more dollars.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
And and I don't know if this.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Is true in every single case, but I would certainly
guess the vast majority of cases, you know, ultimately it's
a it's a marketing decision more than anything else. And
so I think the push I would make to listeners
on this point is all of this other stuff is great,
you know.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Don't don't don't you know? Business can be good too.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
And and if you find good up a product you
want and they're gonna buy one and give one, why not.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
But I think it's important to set.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Aside some part of your budget to just intentionally give
to help people as much as possible and really target
that at the opportunities that will help people a lot
completely altruistically. I think there are huge opportunities there, and
so I think all the other stuff is true, and
there's this opportunity to accomplish a lot of good with
(27:19):
charity that's worth doing as well.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, No, I think you're spot on. I think it's like, yeah,
build the business and then give money away. Hopefully you're
ye providing jobs, you're earning an income, and then also
you have money to give away to charities that matter.
So I guess it's obviously different in every individual's case.
But do you have any sort of rule of thumb
for how much you think individuals should aim to give away?
I mean, there's the ten percent religious principle of tithing,
(27:45):
but what do you think, like, especially since you started
out the gates with, we live in the richest country
in the history of humanity, and there are people in
other parts of the world in extreme poverty, how should
we think about our lot in life and then how
much we should be giving away.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah, I think you hit it spot on.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Everyone is in a totally different situation, you know, people
at different levels of debt, different levels of need for
retirement saving, et cetera. And so it's hard to have
a clean rule. You know, my family we give ten percent,
and we give ten percent, not actually religiously specifically, but
just because it is a big number for us. It
(28:26):
feels like we're making a big commitment and we know
at the end of the day, ten percent of our
income is something that we can afford, especially relative to
other people in the world. I'm not always given ten percent.
Another way that I used to think about it in
the past, it wasn't numerical. I just said, what's the
biggest personal purchase I made in the last year for myself,
(28:49):
I should be willing to give that amount to.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Help people around the world.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
And there I was intending to give an amount that
just felt big, and I know that's really qualitative, but
it got me in the mindset of this charitable giving
is a big thing that I'm trying to do because
I know it will have a big impact on people
around the world.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
It's not just something that I do on the.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Side, and so trying to think about it as a
big purchase was I think got me in the right
mindset and I think the biggest advice I'd give on
this is, finally, like, don't sweat it too too much.
We're coming up to the end of the year, to
the end of the twenty twenty three tax year, And
something that I've done myself and seen from so many
donors over the years is it's really helpful if you're
(29:34):
not giving, to get off the sidelines and give something,
and then a year from now you can ask yourself again,
how did it feel to give that?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
And what I hear over and over again.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Is people are surprised by how fulfilled and how excited
they are about the giving they've done, and often that
causes them to give more. And so I think there's
I think the biggest piece of advice I'd give is
don't wait until you have the perfect answer. Just try
to give something proactive, intentionally, and then you can always
revisit it in the futures.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Right. I love that.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Okay, so you kind of mentioned the end of the year,
the holiday giving season. Why is it that there is
so much focus? I mean, granted we're a little guilty
of this as well with the big write out Thanksgiving,
but is it just because we are coming up towards
the end of the year and it's sort of the
last opportunity to give to some of these different organizations.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
Yeah, it must be some combination of it's the holiday
season and so people are getting in the mindset of
giving and helping others, and then also the tax year,
you know, makes a big difference. You know, I know
that I always want to make sure to get my
donation in for the tax year to make sure that
I can deduct it on my taxes, and so that
plays a role too.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
It's actually interesting.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
We see a huge increase in donations via credit card
on our website in literally the last seventy two hours
of the year, and it's amazing. And so it's amazing
how many people are just trying to get it in
before the calendar year switches or you know, we'll get
checks that are dated December thirty first, when they have
a mail they come in the mail off as long
as they're like dated by December thirty first, they were.
(31:03):
But you know that's the thing that we see so
much of.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Well that's yeah, that's interesting too, because depending on how
much you earn and how much the way your taxes
are evolving, you might not even get a tax break
from giving, But that doesn't necessarily need to be the
reason for doing it either. But okay, I question for you.
You you mentioned how difficult it was for you to
figure out which charities were doing having the most impacts.
(31:27):
And let's say someone's listening and they say, man, I
love what Kibble is doing. That's so cool. But I
also feel compelled to give to charities that are close
to home. Right, there's a charity that mentors high school
kids in underprivileged situations in my neighborhood or something like that,
and I really feel strongly about that. How would you
tell those folks to think about and to maybe vet
(31:48):
nonprofits that are doing good work in their neighborhood or
or you know, in their municipathy. How would how would
you say, oh, yeah, look through these, this, this, and
this to see whether or not that organization's worth give to.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
So the first thing is just by being proactive in
that way, by saying I'm interested in this cause, I
want to help organizations doing this type of mentoring in
my local community. I'm going to go after that proactively
already puts you or puts the donor in a much
(32:21):
better place than the vast majority of people who are
responding to solicitations in the mail or from friends or
at the grocery store. And that is a great place
to start. And that is literally my first piece of
advice is be proactive.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
You know. After that, I'll be honest. I think it's
I think it's real hard.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
We have a post that we wrote a while ago
that are that's called six Tips for giving like a
pro and it kind of goes through some high level
questions that we suggest people ask. Our number one tip
is be proactive. But after that, we say, ask organizations
to make the case that their programs are effective. You know,
just ask them some questions like is the what impact
(33:00):
do you imagine the mentoring having? How do they know
it's having that impact? Ask them how they'd use some
more money. We encourage people when they give money to
organizations to give those organizations flexibility to spend on the
thing that they most want. I think it's easy as
a donor sometime to want to see your dollars being
used for a very specific thing, but that can tie
(33:20):
the hands of organizations in all sorts of ways that
are hard to see. You know, maybe the mentoring program
just needs I don't know, new cords for their laptops,
you know, to plug them in, and that sounds really boring,
but like they know better than you do what they
really need. So we encourage that flexibility. And then finally
we just think it's a good idea to check back
a year later, you know, don't just assume that because
(33:41):
you gave it all work out. I think the way
this process is most effective is when people are proactive.
Then they make they do a little bit of research,
and they give, and then finally at the end of
the day, they come back and they try to learn,
and that circling back is going to enable everyone to
give more effectively over the long run, which is.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Really the goal.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Okay, Ellie, I want to ask you a personal question,
because you're you're mister you're a mister GiveWell, how do
you personally strike that balance between giving locally then versus
giving in a way that you know is going to
save the most lives. Because I find that to be
a very tough conundrum to find yourself in. Right, Like,
on one hand, you know that this amount of money,
(34:22):
whether it's four or five thousand dollars, that that could
save a life, But on the other hand, you're also
looking to maybe some of the needs there in your
own community.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
How do you strike that balance?
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Yeah, so this is how you know. I've thought about it,
and I do give a fair amount locally. My kids
go to local public schools. During COVID, you know, gave
within my community to help people out. And the way
I think about it is bucketing charitable giving into different categories.
One category is support the community and the institutions that
(34:55):
I'm a part of, and I want to do that.
I want to be a good community member and a
good citizen, and I give there because of that reason.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
And then separately, I have a bucket that says.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
I, I don't know how to put this. As a
human being in the world, I want to help other
people around the world as much as possible. And sometimes
it's hard to relate to people who are so far
away the same way that we relate to the people
who are down the block. But you know, I've had
I've been very privileged. I've had the opportunity to, you know,
meet people in Western Kenya and talk to them and
(35:28):
just understand how they're seeing their lives in India. Other
places around the world, and when I imagine them, you
know it, really it motivates me to say, of course,
like the this is obvious, but they are people just
like us. They just happen to live in this incredibly
poor part of the world. And so I also have
this bucket where and it's for me. It's the vast, vast,
(35:51):
vast majority of what I give is going to places
where I think it'll help as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Yeah, No, I love that. I love that you're doing
both and yeah, what was it the Warren Buffett says,
you won the genetic lottery by being born in the
United States, and there's a certain amount of realization of
that and kind of connecting the dots from ourselves to
our brothers and sisters who live in other parts of
the world that we've never met and saying they need
(36:17):
help to Hey, Ellie, we've got just a few more
questions to get to with you, and specifically want to
talk about like donor advice funds and if you think
those are a good option for people to save on
taxes and a way to give effectively. We'll get to
come more with you right after this. We are back.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
We're talking effective altruism with Ellie Hasenfeld and Ellie. You know,
so just before the break, we touched on taxes, and
because of the standard deduction, for a lot of folks,
they're actually not getting much of a tax benefit, and
so there's no really real actual benefit there. So I
just I guess I want to ask a question as
to how it is that we are thinking about are
(36:58):
giving so like, aside from the taxes part right, and
even aside from the good that we're able to do,
whether we're talking locally or on the other side of
the world, like, there seems to be like an internal
change that occurs when we are charitable. When I give,
it's more informed by my faith, but it has a
lot to do with acknowledging I guess the fact that
(37:19):
what I have, my wealth, my income is not necessarily
my own. Do you think that there is an internal
change that happens to folks regardless of their faith, when
they're giving their money away.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
I just think it's.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Really important to remember how fortunate we are for being
born where and when we were. And if I had
been born in western Kenya instead of the Boston area
in the nineteen eighties, my life would have taken a
very different trajectory and that, like you said, is just
(37:51):
a total.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Luck of the draw.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
And so on some level, I feel like it's my
responsibility and my duty to try and help others. And yeah,
I think that when honestly, when I when I watch
the news and I think about all the stuff that's
going wrong in the world and how little I can
do to solve it, it makes me feel a lot
better to know that I'm able to send some money
(38:13):
to organizations that are doing the work that is just
reducing suffering and saving lives. And does you know, I
think on some level change how I relate to what's
happening in the world because I know I'm taking action
to make it a better place.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, And I think we're so it's so easy to
become self obsessed in kind of the modern era, the
social media era, and I see that in myself, right,
And I think the more we give, the more we serve,
the more we take the spotlight off ourselves. And I
think that's so healthy in so many ways. Right, Okay,
I want to know your thoughts on donor of I
(38:48):
phones because I think they're cool and they're a way
to maybe grow your money for to be able to
give more effectively in the future. And it's a way
to not like, say, you can't really like ren in
on that right, you can't like take that money back
and then spend it on yourself. So what's your take
on donor advised funds? And I feel like they've gotten
more accessible, cheaper for individuals. Daffy is one of the
(39:09):
coolest organizations in this space. Like, what do you think
about going that route in an effort to kind of
grow that nest egg so you can give bigger chunks
down the road.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
So, I mean I can't give like formal tax or
financial advice, but I think donor advised funds are very
helpful to people in the following way. I think they
do two things that can be real helpful. Number One,
they can enable you to give and if you are
going to itemize on your taxes, get that right off.
And if you're not to commit those funds to charities,
(39:36):
so you know you have to give it and you
can't just save it for yourself forever. And then the
second thing they can do is they can often make
it much easier to give a non cash donation. So
when I give I give appreciated securities. And the reason
I give appreciated securities is, you know, I give the
securities that I've appreciated the most. I get the tax
(39:58):
deduction on one hand, and then also reset the basis
essentially on the money that I would put in behind it,
and so I'm getting rid of the basically avoiding the
capital gains tax in a sense on giving those appreciated
securities away and donor advice funds can also make that
a lot easier to pull off because they're set.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Up to take assets of all kinds.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
But I should say you should ask a personal financial
advisor before taking anything what I said at face value.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Appreciate that disclaimer. Really. Okay, one last question for you.
You literally have a tab at the top of the
give Will site that says.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Our mistakes, which is it's pretty bold to air that
dirty laundry there. Why is being transparent like that and
being forthcoming about these past failures so.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Important to you and what it is y'all do.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Yeah, it's just really core to who we are as
an organization. We're an organization that is constantly learning. You know,
I think a lot of folks want to be out
there trying to claim they're good at what they do
before they really got there, And we just want to
be very transparent that, like everyone, we make mistakes, we
(41:06):
screw up, and then we are committed to learning from them.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
And I think having this tab up there helps.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
Most importantly, I'd say our staff know that at GiveWell,
we're a place that doesn't try to hide mistakes.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Instead we just try to learn from him and to
be honest. I think this is something that should be.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Much more common in the nonprofit world because in the
for profit world, companies are competing against each other and
you don't want to display any weakness because you might
lose out. You know, if you're coke, you don't want
to lose out to pepsi. In the nonprofit world, we
are literally all on the same team, like we're just
trying to make the world better, and in general we
(41:44):
try to share as much as we can. I mean,
it's true about our mistakes, it's also true about the
underlying information that goes into our research and recommendations.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
It is all up there on our website.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
We do that so people know what they're getting, they
can determine what they think about is. But also we
just want to put all that information out there because
if can help anyone else do a better job, then
that's great because we're all working at a high level
towards the same goal, which is making the world a
better place.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, and if you can see your screw ups in
real time and then you can adapt, like, you're going
to be more effective as you move into the future.
And so I think like, if it wasn't for your
willingness to look at those pass mistakes, my guess is
give we wouldn't be as effective as it is today.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Well, that's definitely true.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
I mean, just as one concrete example, if you look
back at the recommendations we made when we first launched
in two thousand and seven, we recommended former organizations.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
We don't recommend any of those organizations today. You know,
we've moved on, we've learned, and of course we didn't
do as well.
Speaker 4 (42:41):
You know, back in December two thousand and seven, we
were two people who had worked at GiveWell for four months,
so we weren't.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Going to make some great recommendations.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
Now we're a much larger team, We've been at this
for much longer, and throughout our entire history. We just
are committed to learning about how to do things better.
We've done that for a long time. I hope we
keep doing it for a long time. And I think
it's it's something that I wish was I don't know,
prevalent across the entire sector, because it seems like obviously
(43:10):
the way to do it.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Ellie, Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate
you talking with us about effective altruism. Can you tell
folks word is that they can go to a if
they want to give via your company, or be at
the very least they can just learn about some of
the awesome charities that are out there.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
Yeah, it's really easy.
Speaker 4 (43:27):
So it's give well dot org www dot GiveWell dot
org and on our website you'll find options to donate.
You can click through and read more, and if you're
not sure about what to focus on, you can sign
up for our email list and get a monthly email
of highlights from the work that we're doing.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
It's Kayler awesome, Ellie, Thank you again so much. Man.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Oh my pleasure. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
This was great, all right, Matt boy, that was a
great combo. I just yeah, I really like Ellie.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
I like dude, great mission. I appreciate the energy that
he brings to giving. Do you think he has to
be energetic in order to get folks to I think
you just ta get folks to be excited about giving
them money away.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
No, I agree. I think it's pumped and I think
it helps with what he does. But I think this is,
like you said, naturally a part of who he is
when you care about something that deeply it resonates and
you can't kind of help but spreading the gospel of
giving right, which is which is what he does. Well.
But what was your big takeaway from that conversation?
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Okay, Well mine is going to be so when we're
talking about giving locally to organizations that you care about
that have impact you personally, but then also your your
direct community, and finding that balance between that which is
not going to be an optimized form of giving, and
simultaneously holding that at the same time as you are
trying to find ways to give in an ultra optimized, effective,
(44:41):
altruistic way. Well, the fact is you can do both,
and I love that. That is what Ellie said. I
think there could have been a chance that he would
have said well, guys, you got to give the You
got to be an effective altruist all the way through
one hundred percent, because you know that every dollar that
you're giving locally essentially isn't nearly as as efficient as
that money going abroad, going overseas. But I really like
(45:05):
how he framed it, which is, we are citizens essentially,
this is how I interpreted it. But we're citizens of
our local community, of our town, the city, our state,
wherever it is that we live. But then simultaneously, we're
global citizens and the ability for us to make a
massive impact in the lives of others, other human beings
who we literally share humanity with that we share this
globe with. I think that can be a fantastic approach,
(45:28):
to have the both and approach, which is I think
how you've mentioned it.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
I like it. I like the kind of almost like
we do savings buckets, do giving buckets and say there
you go, and half my giving goes to the most
in the most optimized way, and the other half can
go towards organizations that are local that I've been supporting
for a long time. I don't want to I don't
want to rip all my funding out from those organizations
that are near and dear to my heart where I
can actually kind of see and participate in the good
that's being done. But yeah, you can do both, because
that's important as well. Yeah. Yeah, I think my big
(45:53):
takeaway was when he said charity is not the only
way to do good in this world, and he talked
about how, yes, starting a business is a great way
to do it. I think another thing I would point
people to is it doesn't just have to be money.
It could be your time that's given to a local
nonprofit or to serve at your kid's school or something
like that. I mean, there's all sorts of ways to
get involved in your community that don't involve dollars.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
So there's a lot of folks who may not have
excess dollars this time of year, right, and they're trying
to find ways. Well, guys, how the heck am I
going to be an effective altruistic Well yeah, like you said,
there's a way you can do that in person.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yeah, And I think you also don't. He's basically saying,
at least said, dip your toes in, like give a
little bit, see how it feels. And I think that's
good to kind of like we talk about with investing,
it's like, start with a little bit, twenty bucks matters, right,
and then you're an investor and twenty bucks matters here.
Now you're a giver, Like now you are a philanthropist,
and you can always grow that pie that you're giving
away in the future. But I think just getting started
(46:47):
is important too. But totally agree. All right, let's get
back to the beer that we had on this episode.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
This is an all around fantastic episode because we had
a great conversation, but we also had a fantastic beer.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
No, we did.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
This.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
One's called Chokable Hurricane. It's a smoothie sour by other
half or your thoughts, it's my other half. This is
a collab as well.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Over here it says it was brewed with their friends
at Drekker Brewing Company, which evidently is that a Fargo,
North Dakota.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Oh, I've never been to Fargo. Seen the movie? Seen
the movie? Okay, have you seen the show? Oh? Yeah,
it's like three three seasons. I think I saw the
first series too. It's so, I mean, great, all right
movie versus the show. If you had to pick, it's
tough because I went into that show being like, yeah, right,
no way. The movie is so good, but the show
is really good too, so like get held up. Yeah,
they're both great, okay, but the beer dude so good.
(47:31):
It was incredibly thick. So off. Mike, you said that
this tastes like a mimosa, and I totally agree, even
though it's trying to mimic a hurricane, which is like
the classic New Orleans cocktail New Orleans drink rum orange juice, passion,
fruit passion food.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Lime juice as well. So I don't think there's any
lime flavors, but the orange flavors, the mandarin flavors in particular,
totally come through. It's I don't know how to describe it,
but it's less bright and it's more of a fleshy
orange kind of not only flavor but also mouthfeel because
there's a good amount of fruit sediment in.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
This and this beer. But I will say it's not
it's not too much. Sometimes when you get a smoothie hour,
it's like there's like chunks and stuff in there, and
that's kind of off putting. No, this this has Did
you pour your entire can?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
No?
Speaker 1 (48:13):
I left a little bit in the model.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Probably did you get some chunks. Well, I mean I
gave it once I got a quarter of the way down.
I swirled it so I could get it all out. No,
I left like the last like I don't know, very
very small portion.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
I nothing goes to waste. I ate all my veggies
and all my fruit. Well, I thought this was delicious.
I was surprised them. Like other half. All I know
them for is IPA is. It's nice to have a
different style that they made and this one did not
leave anything to be desired.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
That's right, And thank you to Jason for donating this
one to the podcast. So Jason was being charitable in
a completely different You can it's either money, your time.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Or also beer or the gift a beer, yeah, the
best craft beers in the world. Make sure you sa
have a little room in your budget for that gift.
But that's gonna be it for this episode.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
We'll make sure to link to give well up on
the show at how to money dot com. We hope
everyone has a fantastic Thanksgiving tomorrow, that you are able
to spend a lot of time with your family or
with your friends if you do the friends giving, if
that's how you roll, But either way, hope you have
a great one, Joel, that's gonna be it, buddy. Until
next time, best friends out, Best friends Out,
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
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