January 17, 2025 • 34 mins
Time for a Friday Flight- our little sampling of the week’s financial news and what it means for your personal finances. There are a lot of headlines out there, but we boil them down to specific takeaways that will allow you to kick off the weekend informed and help you to get ahead with your money. In this episode we explain some relevant and helpful stories like: vetted LA wildfire charities, awful AI advice, booming BNPL, finding happiness in all the wrong ways, spending to please others, crack cocaine of the stock market, sports gambling, unserious CFPB, Skechers kicking butt, the rise of store brands, and frittering away on fitness.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're talking awful AI advice, booming BNPL, and frittering
on Fitness.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Angel.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
You know, I like to explain the acronyms BNPL, buy now,
pay later. I think most of our listeners probably know
that at this what we're talking about. But I never
like leading with the acronyms without a little explanation. I
don't want to be I don't want this to be
a jargon zone. But yeah, maybe by this point everyone
doesn't know what.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
We're talking about.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Your affirms here, Klarna's that's what we're talking about here, yeap, exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Man.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Our heart continues to go out to all the folks
out there in California, folks who have been impacted in
a crazy way with.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
All the fires that are out there.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Hopefully there's a little bit optimism now, given the fact
that seems like wins of died down some and firefighters
may have started to gain control of all the different.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Fires out there. But it's terrible.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, so many people impacted, and then so many first
responders going out there to help mitigate the impacts and
try to tame those fires, and yeah, The interesting thing though, is, Matt,
I think for people who want to give money to
organizations that are helping in light of what's happened, there
are great places to give, but there are also scammers
(01:27):
attempting to try impart people from their money on the
giving front, and so charity Navigator has compiled a list
of charities that they've vetted. Go to charitynavigator dot org.
We'll link to that in the show notes to the
specific url where you can find vetted charities to give to.
The Other thing, Matt is people who have, like families
or individuals who were displaced by the fire, they're launching gofundmes,
(01:50):
which makes sense like I would do the same if
I was in their shoes in an attempt to kind
of get by in the here and now. And one
thing I noticed though, Matt and go fund me is
a solid platform. They don't quote unquote charge platform fees
aside from the general swipe fees that Visa and MasterCard
charge them. But did you notice that they have this
(02:12):
tipping thing on there and not.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Big on the GoFundMe. So is it like the screen
at the coffee shop where you can where you can
only tip fifteen, twenty or twenty five.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
You can bring it down to zero percent. But the
suggested tip that GoFundMe wants you to give is really high.
It's typically in that fifteen to twenty percent range. So
if you don't notice, or you're like, wait a second,
is this mandatory, you might end up giving a lot more.
And just so does having a lot to the funders
of GoFundMe and the people who operate it.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Sure so, does that typically go on top of the
dollar amount or does it deduct from.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
The No, it goes on top. So let's say you're
giving five hundred bucks.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I don't know which one is worse seeing that additional
charge hit or knowing that not all of your dollars
went towards the cause that you're trying to support.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, it's kind of again, I get a little sneaky.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
I get to go fundme itself is not a nonprofit
and they need to have funds to operate as well.
But it's kind of weird when you're on there and
you're like, h let me donate five hundred bucks to
this nonprofit And then makes sense.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
So used to the fifteen percent, it's one thing if there'
somebody's standing there and they're crafting a beverage for you,
as opposed to being like, oh, yeah, here's this giant
organization that's looking to make a profit. Should they also
deserve fifteen percent of what I'm looking to donate to
somebody to help them to get by.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
I've kind of come under fire, come under some criticism
for that.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
I think it's deserved, just because and maybe they should
be better at spelling it out and saying, hey, here's
you know what we need to operate and.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
But guess what, I bet there's gonna better communication about
it now. Yeah, moving forward, after stories of spread around
on the internet.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
And maybe just a lower suggested tip amount go fund
me because yeah, the ninety bucks on five hundred seems
a little over the top.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, Okay, So we recently mentioned robin Hood's plan to
infuse some AI advice into its app for customers in
the future. We're curious to see what that's gonna end
up looking like. We're also skeptical about its ability to
effectively help folks make smart money and investing decisions. Well,
there's a recent piece and Wired about AI financial advisors
(04:08):
that are currently in existence, and that only exacerbated our
concerns about what's to come. So for folks out there
who want financial advice but they're loath to spend hundreds
or even thousands of dollars sometimes to speak to a human,
well you've got an AI chatbot that might seem like
a good place to turn. Froogler sheet Man, I would say,
I think you know what my answer is going to be.
(04:30):
Cleo AI and Bright. They are two of the biggest
free ones out there, at the top of the charts
on Apple and you connect your account to these apps,
so get it. So these are standalone apps the AI
it peruses your particulars, your different transactions, and then it
offers you.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Advice based on what it sees.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Guess what I don't like about this whole scenario, Joel,
all of it basically, But they're trying to sell it,
you know, like it's sounds so good in the marketing materials,
but in reality, you know, especially when the product is free,
you gotta.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Watch your back.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, when the product is free, you're the product, which
means like they're going to try to sell you stuff. Right,
These apps and outs are kind of funny in one regard,
because you can even ask the artificial intelligence to roast
your personal finance moves or to I don't give you
pat on the back for maybe some of the good
things you've done, and it's kind of funny some of
the things that'll it'll tell you that doesn't.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Mean well, a lot of money not last month.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
W how do you know if you've been looking at
my budget map, Well, I think it's goofy, but I
don't know that it's terribly helpful. And on the actual
money management front, these apps, they end up providing advice
at times at least that attempts to part you from
your money. So if, for instance, in conversation with the
AI bot, you maybe sound a little cash strapped, a
little cash poor, it will recommend applying for a cash
(05:47):
advance granted to you. Buy Cleo right by the app
itself rights surprised. Hey, I'm here to help you solve
your problem that I just identified.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
And honestly, this is one of the issues we have
with some of the neo banks out there as well.
It's like it's not that they're not providing a service. Yes,
do they offer a competitive interest rate, yes, but what
else are they also trying to sneak in the door. Yes,
with you downloading that app and opening an account with them.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
And with Cleo, what they'll say is, well, if it's
a really small cash infusion, we were not going to
charge any interest, right, But if you want money of
any meaningful amount, you will pay Cleo handsomely for that ability.
And if you want the money immediately, which is what
most people will want if they're in that situation, You're
going to pay an extra fee for that too. It's
kind of like on Venmo, I guess where you can
(06:30):
choose to send money back to your account, the slow
way or the quick way. You're going to pay for
the quickway and the cash infusion that Cleo suggests it
might only compound your financial troubles. So maybe they think
you need cash, but maybe the truth is that's not
the best thing for you and your compounding your.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Problems or not addressing the underlying issue. Yeah, neither of you.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
They might try to sell you a premium membership as well.
And I think the app developers they didn't create this
AI financial advice spot for purely altruistic reasons, right. They
want to get paid, they want to develop an app
that makes them rich. And we're not against people's ability
to build a business that helps people and makes them money.
But we've also seen no evidence that these sorts of
(07:08):
apps are the smart way for you to get money advice,
and if the advice giver also benefits from selling you
financial products that enrich them, I guess our advice is
just to beware. It might be kind of funny and novel,
but I just don't think that these apps are in
people's best interests.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
And I think eventually the novelty will wear off as
folks are getting used to what it is that these
AI bought chatbots can do, and like that's the thing.
They're not all bad, because like literally we're in this
like AI brave new world, and I think it is
up to us to decipher and to figure out which
of these applications are there to help us and which
ones are there to hurt us, Because if you think
about it from like a like if you log into
(07:46):
your credit card account, they've oftentimes got like little chatbots there,
and you can use those to your advantage. I actually
recently did this with my the mortgage holder of our house.
I had it on my calendar to log in and
cancel PMI, with which this is a whole nother thing.
I actually accepted PMI and didn't put on twenty percent
back when we got the house because I got a
lender credit and I knew that that credit was would
(08:08):
offset the monthly amount of that PMI two or three years.
In short, we don't want people to tell you have
PMI on their homes, but in this case, it financially
made sense for me. Anyway, I had it on my
calendar to go in and cancel that, and I was
dreading it, dude, because I'm like, ugh, it's gonna be
such a pain in the butt. I've never done this before,
and so because of the fact that it's the fear
of the unknown, I'm thinking about it and I'm just
like dreading it and it's just going to be a
(08:30):
huge hassle. I logged in, saw a chat box prompt
there and I thought, how do I drop PMI? And
it told me, and it took me directly to the page,
which was of course buried like it's a page that
I would would not have been able to find it.
And by the way, PMI automatically drops off of your
mortgage once you hit seventy eight percent, but you can
(08:51):
get it dropped once you hit eighty. I was at
eighty percent and I clicked one button.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Boom is gone, and it's gone. There you go.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
And so this is an instance where in this case
the loan service or and there's other products out there too,
like I mentioned with credit cards that where you can
use that to your advantage and it's there to serve you. Right,
it's a an AI customer service, but be careful when
it's set up like this in this case, which is
more like an AI salesman and they're trying to sell
you on the different products that they're offering. Yeah, it's
not that AI is bad, it's that certain implementations of
(09:20):
a one hundred percent can be harmful. All right, let's
talk about the aftermath of the holiday shopping season, Matt.
I always worry seeing these stats on the back end
of how much people spent and how much debt was accrued,
and the numbers are just never heartening.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And I think in the United States of America, we
just consume, we spend and it shows up in especially
around the holidays, and we get the data in January,
well and by now pay later has been the hot
new spending method of the moment, especially over just the
past couple of years. Like the rise in BNPL has
been astounding, and that continued to be the case this
(09:54):
Christmas season, as more retailers embedded buy now, pay later
options at checkout and more consumer said yes, please, I
don't have the money or I'm not interested in paying
the full price for this item right now, I'd like
to pay for this I don't know until March instead,
and so because of that, we saw buy now, pay
later obligations increase by more than ten percent. This is
(10:15):
according to data from Adobe. And obviously, like I don't
like this, you and I were not huge fans of
buy now, Pay later in general, because we would rather
people actually feel the pain when they're making the purchase.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
No, we don't want you to soften the blow, right,
How can we make this feel even more poignant?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
It's not because we're Massachis and we love pain and
we're just like sweet punch me in the face. But
when you feel the punch in the face of a purchase,
it makes you think twice before you actually make the purchase,
and it makes you question whether you have the funds
to cover that purchase or not. And I'm also worried
that it's not just people opting for buy now, pay
later instead of a credit card. I think more people
(10:55):
are choosing d all the above. Yeah, and they're saying, wait, well,
I'm kind of like, I don't know, got a lot
of credit card debt, so maybe buy now, pay later
is my only option. And so they're just adding fuel
to the fire, heaping on debt levels that this could,
you know, result in more delinquencies it already is, it
seems like, and rising buy now, pay later on top
(11:16):
of rising credit card payments and interest rates, it could
create this nasty headache for millions of individuals and it
really could harm the economy as a whole. The more
you pay for today's stuff tomorrow, the more precarious your
finances to come. You're just like punting it down the
line and saying, oh, yeah, I'll pay for that someday
in the future.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
That can down the road, man.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
That's the that's the American way, as opposed to do
with the exact opposite, Like that is the path to
financial independence. Paying for today's goods yesterday. Yeah, because you've
been saving up for it.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Fin it's like.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Paying for your auto insurance six months or a year
at a time instead of in advance. Yes, you typically
get a break for doing that too, right.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, you literally financially get rewarded for that. And dude,
just generally speaking, I think we're bucking up against the
limits of consumerism in our country right now. And like
not just the financial limitations, the inability to keep spending
without restraint, but also just its inability to impact our
actual happiness levels. But I mean, we keep launching new
creative payment products, keep launching there are different ways for
(12:14):
people to get into debt in an attempt to fuel spending,
but that spending can't outpace wages forever, and the system
isn't set up to help you to make wise choices.
But that is why the show exists, and this is
why we talk about what it is what we talk about,
and so that's from a financial lens, but going back
to that, like from the happiness point of view as well,
it's not just a lack of dollars and cents that
(12:36):
are going to keep us from being able to continue
to spend in this way, but like, how long are
we going to continue to like common sense as well,
we continue, or just Americans broadly speaking, if we continue
to make these same purchases slash mistakes, thinking that it's
going to continue to sort of boost our happiness levels.
As opposed to the things that we oftentimes will point
to when we get a little more philosophical here on
(12:56):
the show, the things that truly do bring happiness, like
social can actions, deep relationships, feeling like you are a
part of something bigger. These are the things that folks
should be looking to as opposed to maxing out their
credit cards, maxing out the number of items that they
can cram into their house, or even like on the
more financially savvy an the literate thing to do, which
is like maxing out your retirement accounts. That is something
(13:19):
we do want people to do, and that's a healthy
step to take towards financial independence. But that's not necessarily
going to bring about happiness, which is I think what
a lot of folks are are after, you know, like
what does it mean to lead a rewarding life? Like
what does it mean to be human? Well? Yeah, you know,
like these the higher level questions are what I'm pointing
folks towards here.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Going back to something a little lower level you're making.
It makes me think of the release or the announcement
of the release of the new Nintendo Switch right, Nintendo
Switch to coming out this spring, and just thinking about
the limitations of improvement to some of the products that
we're interested in buying. We talk about this when it
comes to cell phones, right, how the ooh, now you've
(14:00):
get Ai in your in your iPhone, but just like
how this one's got another button. Yeah, how incremental the
improvements are. I think the same thing is true for
the Nintendo Switch. You you and I were just like reminiscing
about how groundbreaking the n sixty four was when it
came out, and it was a cool system. I mean
Golden Eye, what a classic game.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Right, amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
But I just think that we're at this point where
the marketing mechanism has to kick into full gear to
try to convince us that we need this thing that
when we actually compare the thing side by side, were like,
what is that? What am I actually getting for the
money I'm spending? Because it feels.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Like getting it is the shiny new Yeah, you're getting
the novelty, right. I think this is a part of
the reason why that just kind of going back to AI.
Why that's still appealing, it is because it's novel, it's new,
it's shiny, it's different. It's not that it provides like
that much utility necessarily unless you are.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Able to utilize it.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
And I think the proper way, but like that's what
people are paying for, yeah, as opposed to actually looking
at is there a legitimate benefit that this new switch
is going to provide me. I think for some folks
out there, like the hardcore gamers, they'll say yeah, But
I think for the vast majority of folks what they
might see themselves getting sucked up into is that marketing
machine and the hype.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Another reason that people spend Matt is and sometimes they
do this without realizing it. They spend to please others,
to make other people happy. And the New York Times
had an interesting article about that actually this week. And
I think sometimes we spend money we don't have because
it's been normalized. It's like, well, yeah, this going off
for drinks after work, even though I can actually afford
the drinks. It's what people do, it's what everyone does,
(15:27):
and so I can't buck the system.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
And it kind of it feels a little less selfish
if you're doing it, because like what I just kind
of pointed to a relationship and if you're thinking, well, well,
here's a way I can kind of help to grow
those relationships and those social connections. Yeah, so I think
that that might be I don't know, I can see
that being an excuse for folks to maybe spend money
that they don't have.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
But the truth is it is an excuse because there
are other ways to grow your relationships without spending money.
And I think if you struggle with people pleasing or
going with the flow and it's costing you money, it's
worth taking some time to dig deeper and find out why.
I don't think there's like a quick fix for this necessarily,
but becoming more comfortable with discomfort, more comfortable with saying
(16:06):
no or being left out of something, that could be
the key maybe for some people at least listening to
this to saving more in twenty twenty five and you know,
money success it might just look like having harder conversations, yeah,
and growing more individually this year For some folks, Matt,
it might even mean talking to a money therapist. I
think about our friend Asia Evans, who we had on
the show, maybe a money therapist is like the right
(16:27):
person for you to talk to and that's actually going
to help you fix some of those leaks. And those
leaks are coming from the fact that you feel compelled
to spend because other people are doing it or because
it has become normalized in our culture totally.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
And of course, like we always do on our Friday flights,
will link to these different stories because this one in particular,
I think can.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Be helpful for folks.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I will say one thing, like one complaint I had
is that a lot of the different things that they
said that you could do to kind of push back
on spending money were like they would qualify the behaviors,
like they would say that it's okay to say that
you can't do this if it's financially styming your progress
or if you are in financial debt, but like I
would even take that a step further and say, no, no,
(17:08):
it's necessary if you are able to sort of self
analyze and think about this for a second and you
realize that these expenses, these expenditures aren't getting you closer
to whatever your personal goals are, then then you can
say no, no matter what, Like I don't like, it
doesn't have to.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Be you don't have to have a good reason yes
to other people.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
It doesn't have to be something that you can point
to aside from you just saying well that doesn't I
don't value that, or that doesn't fit within my story.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I think the ability for folks.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
To do like that to me is the more uncomfortable part,
Like I like that you what you said about like
kind of leaning into the uncomfort a little bit. And
oftentimes folks will put the blame on their financial situation
and their circumstances and they'll say, well, I can't afford that, right,
And I think it's easier to place the blame on
that for sure. But what that does then is it
kind of perpetuates that narrative of saying, oh, well, if
(17:57):
you have money, you spend it, and you spend, spend,
spend until you don't have any money anymore, and it
sort of normalizes that narrative as opposed to more of
the path and more the approach that we try to
take care on the show is making sure that you're
spending aligns with your values, and sometimes what that looks
like is financial health and you just don't want to
spend your money in this way because it just doesn't
resonate with you.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
That's almost like a negative response vers a positive response, right,
And the negative is like, I can't do this because
how about I can't do this because because I got
this other awesome thing that I'm working towards. Yeah, And
I think that's just a better way to respond. I
think it's encouraging actually to the people around you, and
it helps them understand maybe they feel less like depressed
on your behalf and they feel more excited for you
because you're able to kind of convey something like that's
(18:37):
deeper and more personal with your quote unquote excuse.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
There's more depth yeaheah, there's more depth there as opposed
to kind of like well right out of money.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or We've got more to get to
on this episode, including we're going to talk about getting
fit in twenty twenty five and one pitfall. I think
that could cost you money if you don't play your
cards right. We'll get to that and more right after this.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
We are back from the break and Joel, we're not
talking about getting financially fit, we're talking about getting yoked.
But before we get to that, it is now time
for the ludicrous headline of the week, which is from
the Journal. The headline reads, more men are addicted to
the crack cocaine of the stock market.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
It's a clickable headline, and it's.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Easier than ever to of course, get addicted to pretty
much anything under the sun. You know, we've talked about
shopping addictions recently, we've talked about the rise of sports gambling,
but this article was all about the allure of something
that we hold up as a wonderful thing, and of
course that is investing. And they kind of specifically were
targeting options as like the actual crack cocaine. But just
(19:46):
I mean generally speaking, when it comes to investing, if
you approach it the wrong way, not only can you
hamper your returns, you can find yourself with a debilitating
addiction that's going to harm relationships that can oftentimes take
years to recover from. And I think this is another
reason to avoid investing in individual stocks or speculative mean coins.
(20:07):
You know, like initially it might seem fun at the outset,
and I think if you have the discipline and the
wisdom to be able to keep things in check, if
you're like Brian Ferraldi. We had him on the show.
He invests in single stocks. Yeah, you might outperform, but
the downsides are significant. I think like it makes me
think about like I just mentioned, shopping addictions. You gotta
go to the store. There's certain things you gotta buy,
(20:28):
no matter what their necessities. And in a similar way,
that's how I think about investing. It's like you gotta
wade into the waters. If you want to grow your wealth,
you have to invest your money. But like it, it's
so important though, to just know thyself. If this is
gonna be a slippery slope for you, there are ways
for you to set it and forget it. There are
ways for you to not download the apps onto your
phone to where you're gonna be tempted to make some
(20:49):
of those late night trades when maybe you're not in
the best state of mind to be making those large
purchases or sales.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
In that poll, I think for risky behavior is more
prevalent than it's ever before. And I think we' when
I say more prevalent, I mean used to have to
like jump through hoops to do some of this risky behavior,
and now there's essentially no social stigma because you can
do it from the privacy of your own home and
nobody knows maybe some of the nefarious things you've been
doing no matter what it is that you're doing online
(21:19):
and there's more anonymity, and it's just it's the wheels
have been.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Greased crostilization of it.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, for us to partake in some of this antisocial
or addiction prone behavior, and even like it's been glorified
in some ways. I think about just all the ads
for sports gambling now that are all over the place,
or just those investing apps. It's like they make it
sound like you're being empowered to take control of your
own future, but really what's happening, and what they're incentivizing
(21:47):
you to do is to trade frequently so they make
money instead of you building wealth over the long term.
And Vox just sort of piece called sports gambling should
have stayed in Vegas. And you know those ads are
all about free money for your first bet. It sounds
so great, but then so many people end up getting hooked,
and then there are so many games to bet on,
and you know, I don't know, whatever we want is
(22:08):
at our fingertips in a moment on these smartphones, and
in some ways that's cool, like all the information in
the entire world, but how are we actually using our
access to that information In the case of a YouTube
conversation or a podcast like that's really neat the access
that you have to certain conversations that you never would
have been privy to, never would have existed before. But
(22:30):
you know, I think the lack of friction often causes
us to not think twice before doing something that's not
going to be good for us.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah, we're already doing it before we've even even realized it.
If you were a gambling addict before and all your
neighbors saw your car at the casino all the time
like that, that says something as opposed to like you
on your phone, which honestly can look like productivity. That
could look like, oh man, that guy is like he's
really getting after it. Look at him over there emailing, Yeah,
getting back to his bosses or his boss or you know,
(22:58):
leading other folks on his team.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
That's what it think.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I randomly met somebody recently and she told me that
she's telling me how her husband switched jobs and his
new job is day trading from home. And I had
so many questions. But I was also just a little
I didn't want to pass judgment or be a jerk
or anything like that. Yeah you're like, oh that's interesting, Yeah,
tell me more, tell me more. But I just it
made me nervous to think that that's his new job
(23:21):
right now, and there's just a lot of potential downside.
I think if you're making trading your number one thing.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Did you see that the CFPB that they went after
Capital One this past week? Oh yeah, what do you
think about that?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Well, one, the cfe PB has been incredibly active CFPB
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
They have been like yet another acronyms and lawsuits. How sorry,
folks right and left right towards. I think they in
what they're saying about Capital One is that hey, Capital
one cheated customers out of interest in well why why
are they saying that? Well?
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Capital one had two different savings accounts that they had
on offer at, one of which paid a non competitive
interest rate zero point three percent, and then the other one,
in their performance savings account, paid what like, you know,
competitive rates four and a half to five percent whatever.
And I feel two ways about this lawsuit, Matt. I
think one, I don't love the deliberate confusion. The capital
(24:12):
one was kind of partaking in, like why have the
two savings accounts?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I don't necessarily get it.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
But so here I guess here's my pushback on that point,
which is that a lot of banks do this. Yeah,
and so, like even our favorite online banks CI they've
got like a regular old krusty savings account that pays
one percent, But then they've got the one that we
talk about all the time, which is the Platinum savings.
I don't even Platinum savings connect or something like that.
Actually no, not the connect one that's another one that
has a low has a lower rate, but the Platinum account,
(24:37):
which is like still like four and a quarter. Yeah,
and so I guess that's the part of it where
like I'm not like an investigative journalist, I don't know
necessarily why banks have these multiple savings accounts, but like
choose the one that is offering the higher rate.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I'm guessing it's because they're assuming that some people aren't
going to pay attention, and that's the thing. You have
to pay attention.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yes, but it's interesting wise it falls to us as individuals.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
It's interesting to me though that the CFPB is going
after Capital One for the two savings account thing, one
of which doesn't pay very much. When the big banks
are paying nothing at all on savings consistently and anything,
They're like, hey, we don't offer any good savings accounts
at all for anyone ever. And Capital One, even their
crappy save mus account was better than what the big
banks offer. So I guess I'm kind of shocked and
(25:24):
surprised that the CFPV thought this was worth going after.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
More than anything.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
To me, is just annoying because like it just seems
like there's like a flurry of activity that looks like
it may not have any teeth, may not stick at all. Yeah,
but Joe, let's talk about some frugal living. There is
this profile. Did you see the profile of the shoebrand sketches?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (25:42):
In the journal you've got a pair, right? Do you
have the kind with like the wheel in the back
that's not sketches? Those are Wheelies?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Are they or Healey's Helies? I think they're called a
completely different shoe brand. I think so, Okay, I don't
I'd never had those as a kid.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
This ride up, though, the summary was that all the
other shoe brands out there that they were essentially gunning
for expensive clientele. They're forgetting about cost conscious customers like us.
And so you got like Adidas, Nike, Hoka even on
the on air shoes or whatever, going after the brand
that goes after the tech bros. They've been throwing punches
(26:17):
at each other, while all the while Sketchers they've been
above the fray. There's essentially been this race to create
like a multi hundred dollars super sneaker, and yet Sketchers
is succeeding wildly. They've had a great past five years.
But I just love the fact that they are still
appealing to customers out there who are cost price conscious. Personally,
(26:37):
I like to buy my shoes on eBay. I don't know.
I kind of see them moms like vehicles, Like you
buy a brand new pair of shoes. Some folks like
the smell. They're like, oh, yeah, that fresh sneaker. Get
the toilet paper, you know, the branded paper that you're
pulling out of the shoe and it's all wrapped up.
I don't care about any of that. I don't care
about the new car smell. Let somebody else take that depreciation.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Are you buying you sneakers are new but discounted.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Both Like I'm not gonna buy a pair of shoes
that are like worn down or whatever. But sometimes like
they don't have the box, but you can tell that
they're basically brand new or maybe somebody warm for like
I don't know, a week before they decided that, oh
this shoe isn't for me. But the ability to get
great shoes drastically discounted. Man, That's that's the way I
like to roll.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I've noticed that shoes are kind of going the way
of cell phones, and like they're being upgraded, and it's
the it's the new you know, instead of the number
six version, it's the number seven, number eight version, and
they're just changing every year ever so slightly.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
You're on this, you're on the upgrade cycle.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I'm guessing that the improvements are negligible, so I'm all
about buying the previous year's version.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Or multiple years.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
I mean literally, like, what is it my Ultra's loan peak. Yeah,
they're on like loan peak nine, maybe even ten by now.
But like you know, I'm a big fan of the
sixes in the seventh, which there are a lot of
folks still selling on you.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
If you can find some still around, you're gonna save
a whole lot of money.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Especially once you know your size and you can just
maybe this is more of an old dad kind of move,
like going back to the same shoe and just being like,
I know the shoe fits, I know the exact size,
I even know what color I like.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Let's see if I can find a pair again.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I mean, they make it sound like there's all these
improvements that are done.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Ye, yeah, it's a sneaker man.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
How many improvements can you really make? Not that there
aren't some.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Right, But I do like the fact that Sketchers that
they've kind of been under the radar and while all
these while all these other big names are duking it out,
they're able to swoop in and take a whole lot
of market share.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, and consumers, Matt, they want lower cost options, it
seems like on everything these days, and so it's really
interesting to see a brand like Sketter is taking advantage
of that reality when everyone else is literally fighting for
the expensive, high end consumer that and there's just fewer
of those people to fight between, which means Sketchers is succeeding.
And if the name brands aren't going to give us
the discounts, Well, somebody else is waiting out there to
(28:46):
try and win our dollars. And this is evidenced too
by the fact that store brands are thriving right now
at the grocery store retailers like Walmart and Target, they're
expanding and they're improving their store brand offerings. I noticed
Walmart like has this new law of store brands. They
look kind of cool, like yeah, like almost like Trader
Joe's esque in like the flavors they're putting in there,
(29:08):
and just kind of the higher quality store brand items
where it's not the great value brand, Like they're trying
to distinguish and say, no, no, we're going we're going to
something that we got to drop.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
The great value, just like they dropped the skinny logo.
Did you see the new logo the beefier. Oh yeah, beefiers.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
They're obviously not dropping great value because that's like bargain
basement prices for a bunch of stuff that people want
every day. But if you're looking for something a little
more inventive, Walmart has your back with a new store
brand and the price gap between name brands and store
brands has grown, which means trading down will save you
even more than it did years ago. And there was
this article in Sherwood News and there was a quote
(29:44):
on the rise of store brands and it said the
pricing that's built into a branded product is ninety nine
percent of the time not driven by higher quality. It's
driven by the fact that branded company has to pay
for the marketing to maintain their brand position. So think
there's a lot of truth there. Mattic's those Super Bowl
ads that Doritos has to pay for or whatever to
(30:04):
kind of keep them in the forefront of your mind.
And I just think this is a good reminder to
not neglect store brands, like and think about the fact
that at leital and Aldi they come with a fantastic
money back guarantee if you if you try it and
you're like, this sucks, this is not as good as
what I'm used to, you take it back and you
get you get your money back, right. And the best
store brand, in my opinion, is Kirkleanard Signature. Still like,
(30:25):
when you get a Kirklear Signature product, typically it is
as good or better than the name brand equivalent. Although
I would say it doesn't come with quite as much
money savings. It's high quality, but not quite as much
savings as you're gonna get with like Legal or all
the store brands.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Totally get it, man.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Yeah, the last time the was it like a Pino
noir that we cracked open at our last pizza movie night.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
It was really good.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, really enjoyed it. It's like pick up a bottle
of that. Yeah, next time we're we're there at Costco.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Twelve dollars bottle of wine, which is not as much
as I'm willing.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
To take them, more like a twenty dollars bottle.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
I'll be honest.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Who we're talking about what different companies are out there doing.
Planet Fitness is going like crazy. There are now over
twenty seven hundred locations around the country, and Planet Fitness
says that it wants to grow to five thousand locations
in the coming years. It's a pretty rapid growth Planwhere
you look, it's gonna be like Starbucks now it's just
a ton of gyms to imagine as well. It's like
(31:18):
there's gonna be a Planet Fitness on every corner, but
the Planet Fitness. Yeah, can they make the closing stores, right, yeah,
and be fascinating. But here's what's really interesting. The average
Planet Fitness gym has more than seventy two hundred members,
which is a ton of people. Can you imagine that
many people in the gym? Maybe like at the beginning
of the year, so yes, you can't imagine it, but
(31:39):
first week you saw it. What that means though, is
that there is not actually enough room for everyone to
work out. But that that makes it kind of sound
like that the growing gym count is a necessity, which
maybe is true for the company for them to expand
their locations, but it also reflects the fact that too
many people are paying Planet Fitness without actually going to
the gym at all. So keep This is just a
reminder for folks who might be falling into the subscription trap.
(32:03):
If fitness is one of your your twenty twenty five goals,
that's great, but don't pay a gym month after month
with hopes that maybe you'll get the gumption to go
one random morning. It's I think it is cool that
Planet Fitness is inexpensive. It's pretty dang affordable. It was
only recently that they change the pricing from ten dollars
a month to. I think they upgraded it to fifteen.
(32:25):
But it only matters if you actually do the dang thing,
and so it doesn't matter how cheap it is. Yeah, exactly.
Otherwise you're just you are actually furttering those fitness dollars away.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, And I mean, I think the gym membership for
some people might be the best investment they ever made. Yes,
but I think it's actually interesting. Planet Fitness is at
that price point where some people continue to pay and
they'll say, ah, it's it's ten bucks.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
Or fifteen bucks a month, you can stomach it. It's not
that much. Yeah, but if it was even if it're
not go and if.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
It was crossing it and it was one pint eighty,
you cancel because you feel that junk. If you're not
going right.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, do what works for you.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Like Emily, she goes to a fancy workout class situation
machine on five days a week. That's like freaking amazing.
I love that, and I also love that there is
an option out there for folks who are looking to
only spend fifteen dollars a month.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
But on the note of.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Paying top dollar, make sure you also know how to
cancel your membership because that's maybe this is something I've
expled that I experienced firsthand.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I think you share that. Did you say it?
Speaker 3 (33:19):
I talked around it because I didn't want to talk badly,
but like, make sure you know what the fine print
is when it comes to canceling the membership and how
much of a window, how much of a heads up
you might need to give a gym. Again, you're talking
about one of these big box places like a Crunch
Fitness or a Planet Fitness or whatever, and it's not
that big of a deal if you get stuck with
(33:39):
one more month, but especially for some of the more
specialized gyms that have the nice classes, where maybe you
are paying closer to two hundred dollars a month, Well,
it's definitely enough money to notice, and maybe something that
is still roughly my feathers.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, and they might require fifteen or thirty days advanced notice,
which I mean, yeah, it's just in the fine print.
It's how they brow even though a little uncouth. So
you just have to know what the rules are so
you cancel, so you don't pay that extra month that
you're not gonna use.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
All right, that's gonna do it.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
For this episode, Matt We'll put links to some of
the articles that we mentioned up in the show notes
on our website at howtomoney dot com. Tons of resources
up there, including the how to Money Newsletter. If you
haven't subscribed to that, please do sign up at how
toomoney dot com slash newsletter. It's free and shows up
in your inbox every Tuesday. We promise no spam, you
know it. We hope everyone has a fantastic weekend. We'll
see you back here on Monday.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Oh by the way, everyone have a fantastic Martin Luther
King Junior holiday Federal holiday off.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
But we will still have a fresh episode here waiting
for you, no doubt.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
So until next time, Buddy, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,
Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're talking awful AI advice, booming BNPL, and frittering
on Fitness.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Angel.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
You know, I like to explain the acronyms BNPL, buy now,
pay later. I think most of our listeners probably know
that at this what we're talking about. But I never
like leading with the acronyms without a little explanation. I
don't want to be I don't want this to be
a jargon zone. But yeah, maybe by this point everyone
doesn't know what.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
We're talking about.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Your affirms here, Klarna's that's what we're talking about here, yeap, exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Man.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Our heart continues to go out to all the folks
out there in California, folks who have been impacted in
a crazy way with.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
All the fires that are out there.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Hopefully there's a little bit optimism now, given the fact
that seems like wins of died down some and firefighters
may have started to gain control of all the different.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Fires out there. But it's terrible.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, so many people impacted, and then so many first
responders going out there to help mitigate the impacts and
try to tame those fires, and yeah, The interesting thing though, is, Matt,
I think for people who want to give money to
organizations that are helping in light of what's happened, there
are great places to give, but there are also scammers
(01:27):
attempting to try impart people from their money on the
giving front, and so charity Navigator has compiled a list
of charities that they've vetted. Go to charitynavigator dot org.
We'll link to that in the show notes to the
specific url where you can find vetted charities to give to.
The Other thing, Matt is people who have, like families
or individuals who were displaced by the fire, they're launching gofundmes,
(01:50):
which makes sense like I would do the same if
I was in their shoes in an attempt to kind
of get by in the here and now. And one
thing I noticed though, Matt and go fund me is
a solid platform. They don't quote unquote charge platform fees
aside from the general swipe fees that Visa and MasterCard
charge them. But did you notice that they have this
(02:12):
tipping thing on there and not.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Big on the GoFundMe. So is it like the screen
at the coffee shop where you can where you can
only tip fifteen, twenty or twenty five.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
You can bring it down to zero percent. But the
suggested tip that GoFundMe wants you to give is really high.
It's typically in that fifteen to twenty percent range. So
if you don't notice, or you're like, wait a second,
is this mandatory, you might end up giving a lot more.
And just so does having a lot to the funders
of GoFundMe and the people who operate it.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Sure so, does that typically go on top of the
dollar amount or does it deduct from.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
The No, it goes on top. So let's say you're
giving five hundred bucks.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I don't know which one is worse seeing that additional
charge hit or knowing that not all of your dollars
went towards the cause that you're trying to support.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, it's kind of again, I get a little sneaky.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
I get to go fundme itself is not a nonprofit
and they need to have funds to operate as well.
But it's kind of weird when you're on there and
you're like, h let me donate five hundred bucks to
this nonprofit And then makes sense.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
So used to the fifteen percent, it's one thing if there'
somebody's standing there and they're crafting a beverage for you,
as opposed to being like, oh, yeah, here's this giant
organization that's looking to make a profit. Should they also
deserve fifteen percent of what I'm looking to donate to
somebody to help them to get by.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
I've kind of come under fire, come under some criticism
for that.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
I think it's deserved, just because and maybe they should
be better at spelling it out and saying, hey, here's
you know what we need to operate and.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
But guess what, I bet there's gonna better communication about
it now. Yeah, moving forward, after stories of spread around
on the internet.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
And maybe just a lower suggested tip amount go fund
me because yeah, the ninety bucks on five hundred seems
a little over the top.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, Okay, So we recently mentioned robin Hood's plan to
infuse some AI advice into its app for customers in
the future. We're curious to see what that's gonna end
up looking like. We're also skeptical about its ability to
effectively help folks make smart money and investing decisions. Well,
there's a recent piece and Wired about AI financial advisors
(04:08):
that are currently in existence, and that only exacerbated our
concerns about what's to come. So for folks out there
who want financial advice but they're loath to spend hundreds
or even thousands of dollars sometimes to speak to a human,
well you've got an AI chatbot that might seem like
a good place to turn. Froogler sheet Man, I would say,
I think you know what my answer is going to be.
(04:30):
Cleo AI and Bright. They are two of the biggest
free ones out there, at the top of the charts
on Apple and you connect your account to these apps,
so get it. So these are standalone apps the AI
it peruses your particulars, your different transactions, and then it
offers you.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Advice based on what it sees.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Guess what I don't like about this whole scenario, Joel,
all of it basically, But they're trying to sell it,
you know, like it's sounds so good in the marketing materials,
but in reality, you know, especially when the product is free,
you gotta.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Watch your back.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, when the product is free, you're the product, which
means like they're going to try to sell you stuff. Right,
These apps and outs are kind of funny in one regard,
because you can even ask the artificial intelligence to roast
your personal finance moves or to I don't give you
pat on the back for maybe some of the good
things you've done, and it's kind of funny some of
the things that'll it'll tell you that doesn't.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Mean well, a lot of money not last month.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
W how do you know if you've been looking at
my budget map, Well, I think it's goofy, but I
don't know that it's terribly helpful. And on the actual
money management front, these apps, they end up providing advice
at times at least that attempts to part you from
your money. So if, for instance, in conversation with the
AI bot, you maybe sound a little cash strapped, a
little cash poor, it will recommend applying for a cash
(05:47):
advance granted to you. Buy Cleo right by the app
itself rights surprised. Hey, I'm here to help you solve
your problem that I just identified.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
And honestly, this is one of the issues we have
with some of the neo banks out there as well.
It's like it's not that they're not providing a service. Yes,
do they offer a competitive interest rate, yes, but what
else are they also trying to sneak in the door. Yes,
with you downloading that app and opening an account with them.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
And with Cleo, what they'll say is, well, if it's
a really small cash infusion, we were not going to
charge any interest, right, But if you want money of
any meaningful amount, you will pay Cleo handsomely for that ability.
And if you want the money immediately, which is what
most people will want if they're in that situation, You're
going to pay an extra fee for that too. It's
kind of like on Venmo, I guess where you can
(06:30):
choose to send money back to your account, the slow
way or the quick way. You're going to pay for
the quickway and the cash infusion that Cleo suggests it
might only compound your financial troubles. So maybe they think
you need cash, but maybe the truth is that's not
the best thing for you and your compounding your.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Problems or not addressing the underlying issue. Yeah, neither of you.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
They might try to sell you a premium membership as well.
And I think the app developers they didn't create this
AI financial advice spot for purely altruistic reasons, right. They
want to get paid, they want to develop an app
that makes them rich. And we're not against people's ability
to build a business that helps people and makes them money.
But we've also seen no evidence that these sorts of
(07:08):
apps are the smart way for you to get money advice,
and if the advice giver also benefits from selling you
financial products that enrich them, I guess our advice is
just to beware. It might be kind of funny and novel,
but I just don't think that these apps are in
people's best interests.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
And I think eventually the novelty will wear off as
folks are getting used to what it is that these
AI bought chatbots can do, and like that's the thing.
They're not all bad, because like literally we're in this
like AI brave new world, and I think it is
up to us to decipher and to figure out which
of these applications are there to help us and which
ones are there to hurt us, Because if you think
about it from like a like if you log into
(07:46):
your credit card account, they've oftentimes got like little chatbots there,
and you can use those to your advantage. I actually
recently did this with my the mortgage holder of our house.
I had it on my calendar to log in and
cancel PMI, with which this is a whole nother thing.
I actually accepted PMI and didn't put on twenty percent
back when we got the house because I got a
lender credit and I knew that that credit was would
(08:08):
offset the monthly amount of that PMI two or three years.
In short, we don't want people to tell you have
PMI on their homes, but in this case, it financially
made sense for me. Anyway, I had it on my
calendar to go in and cancel that, and I was
dreading it, dude, because I'm like, ugh, it's gonna be
such a pain in the butt. I've never done this before,
and so because of the fact that it's the fear
of the unknown, I'm thinking about it and I'm just
like dreading it and it's just going to be a
(08:30):
huge hassle. I logged in, saw a chat box prompt
there and I thought, how do I drop PMI? And
it told me, and it took me directly to the page,
which was of course buried like it's a page that
I would would not have been able to find it.
And by the way, PMI automatically drops off of your
mortgage once you hit seventy eight percent, but you can
(08:51):
get it dropped once you hit eighty. I was at
eighty percent and I clicked one button.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Boom is gone, and it's gone. There you go.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
And so this is an instance where in this case
the loan service or and there's other products out there too,
like I mentioned with credit cards that where you can
use that to your advantage and it's there to serve you. Right,
it's a an AI customer service, but be careful when
it's set up like this in this case, which is
more like an AI salesman and they're trying to sell
you on the different products that they're offering. Yeah, it's
not that AI is bad, it's that certain implementations of
(09:20):
a one hundred percent can be harmful. All right, let's
talk about the aftermath of the holiday shopping season, Matt.
I always worry seeing these stats on the back end
of how much people spent and how much debt was accrued,
and the numbers are just never heartening.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And I think in the United States of America, we
just consume, we spend and it shows up in especially
around the holidays, and we get the data in January,
well and by now pay later has been the hot
new spending method of the moment, especially over just the
past couple of years. Like the rise in BNPL has
been astounding, and that continued to be the case this
(09:54):
Christmas season, as more retailers embedded buy now, pay later
options at checkout and more consumer said yes, please, I
don't have the money or I'm not interested in paying
the full price for this item right now, I'd like
to pay for this I don't know until March instead,
and so because of that, we saw buy now, pay
later obligations increase by more than ten percent. This is
(10:15):
according to data from Adobe. And obviously, like I don't
like this, you and I were not huge fans of
buy now, Pay later in general, because we would rather
people actually feel the pain when they're making the purchase.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
No, we don't want you to soften the blow, right,
How can we make this feel even more poignant?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
It's not because we're Massachis and we love pain and
we're just like sweet punch me in the face. But
when you feel the punch in the face of a purchase,
it makes you think twice before you actually make the purchase,
and it makes you question whether you have the funds
to cover that purchase or not. And I'm also worried
that it's not just people opting for buy now, pay
later instead of a credit card. I think more people
(10:55):
are choosing d all the above. Yeah, and they're saying, wait, well,
I'm kind of like, I don't know, got a lot
of credit card debt, so maybe buy now, pay later
is my only option. And so they're just adding fuel
to the fire, heaping on debt levels that this could,
you know, result in more delinquencies it already is, it
seems like, and rising buy now, pay later on top
(11:16):
of rising credit card payments and interest rates, it could
create this nasty headache for millions of individuals and it
really could harm the economy as a whole. The more
you pay for today's stuff tomorrow, the more precarious your
finances to come. You're just like punting it down the
line and saying, oh, yeah, I'll pay for that someday
in the future.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
That can down the road, man.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
That's the that's the American way, as opposed to do
with the exact opposite, Like that is the path to
financial independence. Paying for today's goods yesterday. Yeah, because you've
been saving up for it.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Fin it's like.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Paying for your auto insurance six months or a year
at a time instead of in advance. Yes, you typically
get a break for doing that too, right.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, you literally financially get rewarded for that. And dude,
just generally speaking, I think we're bucking up against the
limits of consumerism in our country right now. And like
not just the financial limitations, the inability to keep spending
without restraint, but also just its inability to impact our
actual happiness levels. But I mean, we keep launching new
creative payment products, keep launching there are different ways for
(12:14):
people to get into debt in an attempt to fuel spending,
but that spending can't outpace wages forever, and the system
isn't set up to help you to make wise choices.
But that is why the show exists, and this is
why we talk about what it is what we talk about,
and so that's from a financial lens, but going back
to that, like from the happiness point of view as well,
it's not just a lack of dollars and cents that
(12:36):
are going to keep us from being able to continue
to spend in this way, but like, how long are
we going to continue to like common sense as well,
we continue, or just Americans broadly speaking, if we continue
to make these same purchases slash mistakes, thinking that it's
going to continue to sort of boost our happiness levels.
As opposed to the things that we oftentimes will point
to when we get a little more philosophical here on
(12:56):
the show, the things that truly do bring happiness, like
social can actions, deep relationships, feeling like you are a
part of something bigger. These are the things that folks
should be looking to as opposed to maxing out their
credit cards, maxing out the number of items that they
can cram into their house, or even like on the
more financially savvy an the literate thing to do, which
is like maxing out your retirement accounts. That is something
(13:19):
we do want people to do, and that's a healthy
step to take towards financial independence. But that's not necessarily
going to bring about happiness, which is I think what
a lot of folks are are after, you know, like
what does it mean to lead a rewarding life? Like
what does it mean to be human? Well? Yeah, you know,
like these the higher level questions are what I'm pointing
folks towards here.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Going back to something a little lower level you're making.
It makes me think of the release or the announcement
of the release of the new Nintendo Switch right, Nintendo
Switch to coming out this spring, and just thinking about
the limitations of improvement to some of the products that
we're interested in buying. We talk about this when it
comes to cell phones, right, how the ooh, now you've
(14:00):
get Ai in your in your iPhone, but just like
how this one's got another button. Yeah, how incremental the
improvements are. I think the same thing is true for
the Nintendo Switch. You you and I were just like reminiscing
about how groundbreaking the n sixty four was when it
came out, and it was a cool system. I mean
Golden Eye, what a classic game.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Right, amazing.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
But I just think that we're at this point where
the marketing mechanism has to kick into full gear to
try to convince us that we need this thing that
when we actually compare the thing side by side, were like,
what is that? What am I actually getting for the
money I'm spending? Because it feels.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Like getting it is the shiny new Yeah, you're getting
the novelty, right. I think this is a part of
the reason why that just kind of going back to AI.
Why that's still appealing, it is because it's novel, it's new,
it's shiny, it's different. It's not that it provides like
that much utility necessarily unless you are.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Able to utilize it.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
And I think the proper way, but like that's what
people are paying for, yeah, as opposed to actually looking
at is there a legitimate benefit that this new switch
is going to provide me. I think for some folks
out there, like the hardcore gamers, they'll say yeah, But
I think for the vast majority of folks what they
might see themselves getting sucked up into is that marketing
machine and the hype.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Another reason that people spend Matt is and sometimes they
do this without realizing it. They spend to please others,
to make other people happy. And the New York Times
had an interesting article about that actually this week. And
I think sometimes we spend money we don't have because
it's been normalized. It's like, well, yeah, this going off
for drinks after work, even though I can actually afford
the drinks. It's what people do, it's what everyone does,
(15:27):
and so I can't buck the system.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
And it kind of it feels a little less selfish
if you're doing it, because like what I just kind
of pointed to a relationship and if you're thinking, well, well,
here's a way I can kind of help to grow
those relationships and those social connections. Yeah, so I think
that that might be I don't know, I can see
that being an excuse for folks to maybe spend money
that they don't have.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
But the truth is it is an excuse because there
are other ways to grow your relationships without spending money.
And I think if you struggle with people pleasing or
going with the flow and it's costing you money, it's
worth taking some time to dig deeper and find out why.
I don't think there's like a quick fix for this necessarily,
but becoming more comfortable with discomfort, more comfortable with saying
(16:06):
no or being left out of something, that could be
the key maybe for some people at least listening to
this to saving more in twenty twenty five and you know,
money success it might just look like having harder conversations, yeah,
and growing more individually this year For some folks, Matt,
it might even mean talking to a money therapist. I
think about our friend Asia Evans, who we had on
the show, maybe a money therapist is like the right
(16:27):
person for you to talk to and that's actually going
to help you fix some of those leaks. And those
leaks are coming from the fact that you feel compelled
to spend because other people are doing it or because
it has become normalized in our culture totally.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
And of course, like we always do on our Friday flights,
will link to these different stories because this one in particular,
I think can.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Be helpful for folks.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I will say one thing, like one complaint I had
is that a lot of the different things that they
said that you could do to kind of push back
on spending money were like they would qualify the behaviors,
like they would say that it's okay to say that
you can't do this if it's financially styming your progress
or if you are in financial debt, but like I
would even take that a step further and say, no, no,
(17:08):
it's necessary if you are able to sort of self
analyze and think about this for a second and you
realize that these expenses, these expenditures aren't getting you closer
to whatever your personal goals are, then then you can
say no, no matter what, Like I don't like, it
doesn't have to.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Be you don't have to have a good reason yes
to other people.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
It doesn't have to be something that you can point
to aside from you just saying well that doesn't I
don't value that, or that doesn't fit within my story.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I think the ability for folks.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
To do like that to me is the more uncomfortable part,
Like I like that you what you said about like
kind of leaning into the uncomfort a little bit. And
oftentimes folks will put the blame on their financial situation
and their circumstances and they'll say, well, I can't afford that, right,
And I think it's easier to place the blame on
that for sure. But what that does then is it
kind of perpetuates that narrative of saying, oh, well, if
(17:57):
you have money, you spend it, and you spend, spend,
spend until you don't have any money anymore, and it
sort of normalizes that narrative as opposed to more of
the path and more the approach that we try to
take care on the show is making sure that you're
spending aligns with your values, and sometimes what that looks
like is financial health and you just don't want to
spend your money in this way because it just doesn't
resonate with you.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
That's almost like a negative response vers a positive response, right,
And the negative is like, I can't do this because
how about I can't do this because because I got
this other awesome thing that I'm working towards. Yeah, And
I think that's just a better way to respond. I
think it's encouraging actually to the people around you, and
it helps them understand maybe they feel less like depressed
on your behalf and they feel more excited for you
because you're able to kind of convey something like that's
(18:37):
deeper and more personal with your quote unquote excuse.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
There's more depth yeaheah, there's more depth there as opposed
to kind of like well right out of money.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or We've got more to get to
on this episode, including we're going to talk about getting
fit in twenty twenty five and one pitfall. I think
that could cost you money if you don't play your
cards right. We'll get to that and more right after this.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
We are back from the break and Joel, we're not
talking about getting financially fit, we're talking about getting yoked.
But before we get to that, it is now time
for the ludicrous headline of the week, which is from
the Journal. The headline reads, more men are addicted to
the crack cocaine of the stock market.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
It's a clickable headline, and it's.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Easier than ever to of course, get addicted to pretty
much anything under the sun. You know, we've talked about
shopping addictions recently, we've talked about the rise of sports gambling,
but this article was all about the allure of something
that we hold up as a wonderful thing, and of
course that is investing. And they kind of specifically were
targeting options as like the actual crack cocaine. But just
(19:46):
I mean generally speaking, when it comes to investing, if
you approach it the wrong way, not only can you
hamper your returns, you can find yourself with a debilitating
addiction that's going to harm relationships that can oftentimes take
years to recover from. And I think this is another
reason to avoid investing in individual stocks or speculative mean coins.
(20:07):
You know, like initially it might seem fun at the outset,
and I think if you have the discipline and the
wisdom to be able to keep things in check, if
you're like Brian Ferraldi. We had him on the show.
He invests in single stocks. Yeah, you might outperform, but
the downsides are significant. I think like it makes me
think about like I just mentioned, shopping addictions. You gotta
go to the store. There's certain things you gotta buy,
(20:28):
no matter what their necessities. And in a similar way,
that's how I think about investing. It's like you gotta
wade into the waters. If you want to grow your wealth,
you have to invest your money. But like it, it's
so important though, to just know thyself. If this is
gonna be a slippery slope for you, there are ways
for you to set it and forget it. There are
ways for you to not download the apps onto your
phone to where you're gonna be tempted to make some
(20:49):
of those late night trades when maybe you're not in
the best state of mind to be making those large
purchases or sales.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
In that poll, I think for risky behavior is more
prevalent than it's ever before. And I think we' when
I say more prevalent, I mean used to have to
like jump through hoops to do some of this risky behavior,
and now there's essentially no social stigma because you can
do it from the privacy of your own home and
nobody knows maybe some of the nefarious things you've been
doing no matter what it is that you're doing online
(21:19):
and there's more anonymity, and it's just it's the wheels
have been.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Greased crostilization of it.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Yeah, for us to partake in some of this antisocial
or addiction prone behavior, and even like it's been glorified
in some ways. I think about just all the ads
for sports gambling now that are all over the place,
or just those investing apps. It's like they make it
sound like you're being empowered to take control of your
own future, but really what's happening, and what they're incentivizing
(21:47):
you to do is to trade frequently so they make
money instead of you building wealth over the long term.
And Vox just sort of piece called sports gambling should
have stayed in Vegas. And you know those ads are
all about free money for your first bet. It sounds
so great, but then so many people end up getting hooked,
and then there are so many games to bet on,
and you know, I don't know, whatever we want is
(22:08):
at our fingertips in a moment on these smartphones, and
in some ways that's cool, like all the information in
the entire world, but how are we actually using our
access to that information In the case of a YouTube
conversation or a podcast like that's really neat the access
that you have to certain conversations that you never would
have been privy to, never would have existed before. But
(22:30):
you know, I think the lack of friction often causes
us to not think twice before doing something that's not
going to be good for us.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah, we're already doing it before we've even even realized it.
If you were a gambling addict before and all your
neighbors saw your car at the casino all the time
like that, that says something as opposed to like you
on your phone, which honestly can look like productivity. That
could look like, oh man, that guy is like he's
really getting after it. Look at him over there emailing, Yeah,
getting back to his bosses or his boss or you know,
(22:58):
leading other folks on his team.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
That's what it think.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I randomly met somebody recently and she told me that
she's telling me how her husband switched jobs and his
new job is day trading from home. And I had
so many questions. But I was also just a little
I didn't want to pass judgment or be a jerk
or anything like that. Yeah you're like, oh that's interesting, Yeah,
tell me more, tell me more. But I just it
made me nervous to think that that's his new job
(23:21):
right now, and there's just a lot of potential downside.
I think if you're making trading your number one thing.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Did you see that the CFPB that they went after
Capital One this past week? Oh yeah, what do you
think about that?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Well, one, the cfe PB has been incredibly active CFPB
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
They have been like yet another acronyms and lawsuits. How sorry,
folks right and left right towards. I think they in
what they're saying about Capital One is that hey, Capital
one cheated customers out of interest in well why why
are they saying that? Well?
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Capital one had two different savings accounts that they had
on offer at, one of which paid a non competitive
interest rate zero point three percent, and then the other one,
in their performance savings account, paid what like, you know,
competitive rates four and a half to five percent whatever.
And I feel two ways about this lawsuit, Matt. I
think one, I don't love the deliberate confusion. The capital
(24:12):
one was kind of partaking in, like why have the
two savings accounts?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I don't necessarily get it.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
But so here I guess here's my pushback on that point,
which is that a lot of banks do this. Yeah,
and so, like even our favorite online banks CI they've
got like a regular old krusty savings account that pays
one percent, But then they've got the one that we
talk about all the time, which is the Platinum savings.
I don't even Platinum savings connect or something like that.
Actually no, not the connect one that's another one that
has a low has a lower rate, but the Platinum account,
(24:37):
which is like still like four and a quarter. Yeah,
and so I guess that's the part of it where
like I'm not like an investigative journalist, I don't know
necessarily why banks have these multiple savings accounts, but like
choose the one that is offering the higher rate.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I'm guessing it's because they're assuming that some people aren't
going to pay attention, and that's the thing. You have
to pay attention.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yes, but it's interesting wise it falls to us as individuals.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
It's interesting to me though that the CFPB is going
after Capital One for the two savings account thing, one
of which doesn't pay very much. When the big banks
are paying nothing at all on savings consistently and anything,
They're like, hey, we don't offer any good savings accounts
at all for anyone ever. And Capital One, even their
crappy save mus account was better than what the big
banks offer. So I guess I'm kind of shocked and
(25:24):
surprised that the CFPV thought this was worth going after.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
More than anything.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
To me, is just annoying because like it just seems
like there's like a flurry of activity that looks like
it may not have any teeth, may not stick at all. Yeah,
but Joe, let's talk about some frugal living. There is
this profile. Did you see the profile of the shoebrand sketches?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (25:42):
In the journal you've got a pair, right? Do you
have the kind with like the wheel in the back
that's not sketches? Those are Wheelies?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Are they or Healey's Helies? I think they're called a
completely different shoe brand. I think so, Okay, I don't
I'd never had those as a kid.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
This ride up, though, the summary was that all the
other shoe brands out there that they were essentially gunning
for expensive clientele. They're forgetting about cost conscious customers like us.
And so you got like Adidas, Nike, Hoka even on
the on air shoes or whatever, going after the brand
that goes after the tech bros. They've been throwing punches
(26:17):
at each other, while all the while Sketchers they've been
above the fray. There's essentially been this race to create
like a multi hundred dollars super sneaker, and yet Sketchers
is succeeding wildly. They've had a great past five years.
But I just love the fact that they are still
appealing to customers out there who are cost price conscious. Personally,
(26:37):
I like to buy my shoes on eBay. I don't know.
I kind of see them moms like vehicles, Like you
buy a brand new pair of shoes. Some folks like
the smell. They're like, oh, yeah, that fresh sneaker. Get
the toilet paper, you know, the branded paper that you're
pulling out of the shoe and it's all wrapped up.
I don't care about any of that. I don't care
about the new car smell. Let somebody else take that depreciation.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Are you buying you sneakers are new but discounted.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Both Like I'm not gonna buy a pair of shoes
that are like worn down or whatever. But sometimes like
they don't have the box, but you can tell that
they're basically brand new or maybe somebody warm for like
I don't know, a week before they decided that, oh
this shoe isn't for me. But the ability to get
great shoes drastically discounted. Man, That's that's the way I
like to roll.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I've noticed that shoes are kind of going the way
of cell phones, and like they're being upgraded, and it's
the it's the new you know, instead of the number
six version, it's the number seven, number eight version, and
they're just changing every year ever so slightly.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
You're on this, you're on the upgrade cycle.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
I'm guessing that the improvements are negligible, so I'm all
about buying the previous year's version.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Or multiple years.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
I mean literally, like, what is it my Ultra's loan peak. Yeah,
they're on like loan peak nine, maybe even ten by now.
But like you know, I'm a big fan of the
sixes in the seventh, which there are a lot of
folks still selling on you.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
If you can find some still around, you're gonna save
a whole lot of money.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Especially once you know your size and you can just
maybe this is more of an old dad kind of move,
like going back to the same shoe and just being like,
I know the shoe fits, I know the exact size,
I even know what color I like.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Let's see if I can find a pair again.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I mean, they make it sound like there's all these
improvements that are done.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Ye, yeah, it's a sneaker man.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
How many improvements can you really make? Not that there
aren't some.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Right, But I do like the fact that Sketchers that
they've kind of been under the radar and while all
these while all these other big names are duking it out,
they're able to swoop in and take a whole lot
of market share.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, and consumers, Matt, they want lower cost options, it
seems like on everything these days, and so it's really
interesting to see a brand like Sketter is taking advantage
of that reality when everyone else is literally fighting for
the expensive, high end consumer that and there's just fewer
of those people to fight between, which means Sketchers is succeeding.
And if the name brands aren't going to give us
the discounts, Well, somebody else is waiting out there to
(28:46):
try and win our dollars. And this is evidenced too
by the fact that store brands are thriving right now
at the grocery store retailers like Walmart and Target, they're
expanding and they're improving their store brand offerings. I noticed
Walmart like has this new law of store brands. They
look kind of cool, like yeah, like almost like Trader
Joe's esque in like the flavors they're putting in there,
(29:08):
and just kind of the higher quality store brand items
where it's not the great value brand, Like they're trying
to distinguish and say, no, no, we're going we're going to
something that we got to drop.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
The great value, just like they dropped the skinny logo.
Did you see the new logo the beefier. Oh yeah, beefiers.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
They're obviously not dropping great value because that's like bargain
basement prices for a bunch of stuff that people want
every day. But if you're looking for something a little
more inventive, Walmart has your back with a new store
brand and the price gap between name brands and store
brands has grown, which means trading down will save you
even more than it did years ago. And there was
this article in Sherwood News and there was a quote
(29:44):
on the rise of store brands and it said the
pricing that's built into a branded product is ninety nine
percent of the time not driven by higher quality. It's
driven by the fact that branded company has to pay
for the marketing to maintain their brand position. So think
there's a lot of truth there. Mattic's those Super Bowl
ads that Doritos has to pay for or whatever to
(30:04):
kind of keep them in the forefront of your mind.
And I just think this is a good reminder to
not neglect store brands, like and think about the fact
that at leital and Aldi they come with a fantastic
money back guarantee if you if you try it and
you're like, this sucks, this is not as good as
what I'm used to, you take it back and you
get you get your money back, right. And the best
store brand, in my opinion, is Kirkleanard Signature. Still like,
(30:25):
when you get a Kirklear Signature product, typically it is
as good or better than the name brand equivalent. Although
I would say it doesn't come with quite as much
money savings. It's high quality, but not quite as much
savings as you're gonna get with like Legal or all
the store brands.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Totally get it, man.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Yeah, the last time the was it like a Pino
noir that we cracked open at our last pizza movie night.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
It was really good.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, really enjoyed it. It's like pick up a bottle
of that. Yeah, next time we're we're there at Costco.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Twelve dollars bottle of wine, which is not as much
as I'm willing.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
To take them, more like a twenty dollars bottle.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
I'll be honest.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Who we're talking about what different companies are out there doing.
Planet Fitness is going like crazy. There are now over
twenty seven hundred locations around the country, and Planet Fitness
says that it wants to grow to five thousand locations
in the coming years. It's a pretty rapid growth Planwhere
you look, it's gonna be like Starbucks now it's just
a ton of gyms to imagine as well. It's like
(31:18):
there's gonna be a Planet Fitness on every corner, but
the Planet Fitness. Yeah, can they make the closing stores, right, yeah,
and be fascinating. But here's what's really interesting. The average
Planet Fitness gym has more than seventy two hundred members,
which is a ton of people. Can you imagine that
many people in the gym? Maybe like at the beginning
of the year, so yes, you can't imagine it, but
(31:39):
first week you saw it. What that means though, is
that there is not actually enough room for everyone to
work out. But that that makes it kind of sound
like that the growing gym count is a necessity, which
maybe is true for the company for them to expand
their locations, but it also reflects the fact that too
many people are paying Planet Fitness without actually going to
the gym at all. So keep This is just a
reminder for folks who might be falling into the subscription trap.
(32:03):
If fitness is one of your your twenty twenty five goals,
that's great, but don't pay a gym month after month
with hopes that maybe you'll get the gumption to go
one random morning. It's I think it is cool that
Planet Fitness is inexpensive. It's pretty dang affordable. It was
only recently that they change the pricing from ten dollars
a month to. I think they upgraded it to fifteen.
(32:25):
But it only matters if you actually do the dang thing,
and so it doesn't matter how cheap it is. Yeah, exactly.
Otherwise you're just you are actually furttering those fitness dollars away.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, And I mean, I think the gym membership for
some people might be the best investment they ever made. Yes,
but I think it's actually interesting. Planet Fitness is at
that price point where some people continue to pay and
they'll say, ah, it's it's ten bucks.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
Or fifteen bucks a month, you can stomach it. It's not
that much. Yeah, but if it was even if it're
not go and if.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
It was crossing it and it was one pint eighty,
you cancel because you feel that junk. If you're not
going right.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, do what works for you.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Like Emily, she goes to a fancy workout class situation
machine on five days a week. That's like freaking amazing.
I love that, and I also love that there is
an option out there for folks who are looking to
only spend fifteen dollars a month.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
But on the note of.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Paying top dollar, make sure you also know how to
cancel your membership because that's maybe this is something I've
expled that I experienced firsthand.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I think you share that. Did you say it?
Speaker 3 (33:19):
I talked around it because I didn't want to talk badly,
but like, make sure you know what the fine print
is when it comes to canceling the membership and how
much of a window, how much of a heads up
you might need to give a gym. Again, you're talking
about one of these big box places like a Crunch
Fitness or a Planet Fitness or whatever, and it's not
that big of a deal if you get stuck with
(33:39):
one more month, but especially for some of the more
specialized gyms that have the nice classes, where maybe you
are paying closer to two hundred dollars a month, Well,
it's definitely enough money to notice, and maybe something that
is still roughly my feathers.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, and they might require fifteen or thirty days advanced notice,
which I mean, yeah, it's just in the fine print.
It's how they brow even though a little uncouth. So
you just have to know what the rules are so
you cancel, so you don't pay that extra month that
you're not gonna use.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
All right, that's gonna do it.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
For this episode, Matt We'll put links to some of
the articles that we mentioned up in the show notes
on our website at howtomoney dot com. Tons of resources
up there, including the how to Money Newsletter. If you
haven't subscribed to that, please do sign up at how
toomoney dot com slash newsletter. It's free and shows up
in your inbox every Tuesday. We promise no spam, you
know it. We hope everyone has a fantastic weekend. We'll
see you back here on Monday.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Oh by the way, everyone have a fantastic Martin Luther
King Junior holiday Federal holiday off.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
But we will still have a fresh episode here waiting
for you, no doubt.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
So until next time, Buddy, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
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