Teach and Retire Rich w/ Dan Otter #851

Teaching isn’t typically synonymous with accumulating vast quantities of wealth but our guest today, Dan Otter, is here to say otherwise. And actually, it turns out that teachers have a way to totally supercharge their retirement by investing even more money than they otherwise thought possible – that’s just one of the many topics we cover. But Dan Otter is an elementary school teacher turned 403b hero in the world higher ed and teachers. He is the founder of the much referenced site, 403bWise.org, and we’re pumped to discuss the different ways that teachers (a massively underappreciated profession BTW) can financially prepare for their futures. We discuss how to know whether your 403b is any good, why more options doesn’t necessarily mean better options, alternative paths to consider if your 403b is crummy, and plenty more today!

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome too, had a money I'm Joel and I am Matt.
Today we're talking about teaching and retiring rich with Dan Otter.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
So teaching is not typically synonymous with accumulating vast quantities
of wealth, but our guest today, Dan Otter, he is
here to say otherwise. And actually it turns out that
teachers might have a way to totally supercharge their retirement
by investing even more money than they otherwise thought it
was possible or excited to get to that. But Dan Otter,

(00:46):
he is an elementary school teacher turned for a three
B hero in the world of teachers. He is the
founder of the much referenced site for threebys dot org.
And we are pumped to discuss the different ways that
teachers can financially prepare for their futures. Teaching, by the way,
an incredibly underrated profession. I'm sure you would agree, Dan.

(01:06):
But we're excited to talk about four three bes, four
fifty sevens, pensions, all of that and more today. Thank
you for joining us today on the podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:13):
Oh it's my pleasure. I'm very happy to join you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
We're excited to have you Dan. And the first question
we got to ask you, We ask everybody who comes
on is what's your craft beer equivalent? Which means what
is it that maybe you spend more on than some
people would think of sane, But hey, it's okay because
you're still doing the smart things with your money. You're
still saving and investing for the future.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
Well, if you'd asked me this question three years ago,
I probably would have said craft beer. I have been
a long time craft beer fan. I mentioned before we
started recording how I came to our town. It was
to work at a university here, at the University of
Redlands in Redlands, California, southern California, and I ran something

(01:52):
called the School of Continuing Studies. I was an associate
dean and I had to come up with classes that
would be interesting to the public. And I started a
class called From Beer to Eternity. It was the history
of beer and we would hold it at the local
breweries and it was super, super popular. It was like
one day, like I think, three hours, a lot of tasting,

(02:15):
but there's the custory. Yeah, people loved it, and there's
some interesting history around the development of civilization in beer,
you know.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:24):
One of the readings was a New York Times article
that made the case that beer helped advance society, creativity,
socialization kind of sounds like college right.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Not to mention safe drinking water safe.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
We're also firm believers that it accelerates your finances.

Speaker 4 (02:41):
So yeah, the right. But you're absolutely right about the health.
You know, the safety. You know you could you could die,
you know, drinking the wrong thing, whereas beer had been
fermented and you know, pretty healthy. But that was what
I would answer three years ago. I have to tell you, guys,
I'm not drinking as much as I used to. But
I will tell you what I will gladly spend money on,

(03:01):
and that is experiences I will upgrade for better concert seats. Now,
we just went, my wife and I just went to
Vegas to the Sphere to see Las, to see Las Vegas,
to see you too. And I'm like, this is not
a brag, but tickets were five hundred dollars apiece and
they were worth every single penny. I cannot recommend the Sphere.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Specifically you too.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
I'm not gonna lie. I've got a little bit of
regret not having missed out on that. And yeah, I
don't know if ph'll be another opportunity to go see
you t specifically, but I'm like, oh, dang it, I
kind of feel like I.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
Should have I should spend that's wait for Hanson to
come to the Sphere someday.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Remember it haught my way over there. Maybe you can
join me.

Speaker 4 (03:44):
Dan Well, I think you guys should go easier on
yourselves because you're in your early forties, late thirties. I
think I heard and I was there, not that well now,
it's like eighteen years ago, but I was there and
I said no to a bunch of things. I went
to San Diego State and I think it was maybe
twelve thirteen years ago. They were in the I think
it was the final eight or sixteen or something. You know.

(04:06):
I know they got to the final, you know, year ago,
which was a massive deal, but they finally got passed.
I think it was the thirty two got to the sixteen,
and I was living in New Mexico at the time,
and they were playing in California, and my buddy's like,
let's go, and I said no. It's a little bit
like your Sphere story. I don't regret saying no, because
it would have been too much financially at that time.

(04:28):
But now that I'm fifty nine, you know, we still
have a kid in college, a pretty pricey college, and
then a daughter who's living on her own. She's young professional.
I am willing to spend money on that kind of stuff,
and I am willing to spend money on travel. My
wife and I went to Paris and Katar. Not many
people make that combination unless they're going to watch soccer.

(04:49):
But we did that in December. And I would say
one of my sneaky travel tips, which might not be
you know that much of a sneaky tip, is to
travel into December to Europe. It is less crowded. People
are happier to see you. They are frankly overseeing Americans
in the summer. At least five different people told me that.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Plus you're not running into a million Americans who July
just overrun travel when everybody else isn't.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, thanks for sharing, dan Zag. Yeah yeah, okay, can
you kick it off? Tell us the personal store like
your own experience. Essentially that kicked off the obsession for
you with the which I have a lot of obsessions.
The four three journey specifically is what we want to
talk about now.

Speaker 4 (05:35):
Absolutely, so, you had mentioned I was an elementary school teacher.
So we're going back to the early nineties, first year
on the job, maybe my third month on the job.
I know very little about saving for retirement, but I'm
thrilled because I know I have a pension. I don't
even know how it works, but I've been told, look,
you work X number of years, when you retire, you'll
get a percentage of your final paycheck until you pass away. Boy,

(06:00):
that sounded really great after working in journalism for three
years and having no retirement benefits or health benefits. But
one day, the kids had left for the day. It
was about four o'clock. I'm at my desk desperately trying
to get ready for the next day's instruction. Any teacher
listening to this understand the terror of being a first

(06:22):
year teacher, where every day is a massive challenge, and
that first year is a challenge. And so I've got
my head down and there's a knock at my classroom door.
Woman opens the door, pokes her head in and says
a rather jarring comment, do you care about your financial future?

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Wow?

Speaker 4 (06:42):
Okay, you're so busy with your work and you hear
this question. I think there's only one answer, right, I think,
especially the kind of podcast you guys have. Well, yes,
So she takes as an invitation to come in my
room and she starts talking about these investments. And again
I have some vague idea of my life pension, but
I have no idea what she's talking about. And she

(07:04):
said she helps the teacher next door, the teacher down
the hall, and she had the paperwork. Guys, paperwork filled out.
All I had to do was sign it, and I
think one hundred dollars a month would have gone to
this investment. I'm a very skeptical person. I don't like
the hard sell, and so I just said, look, if
I'm interested, i'll get back in touch, thank you for

(07:25):
your time. Lucky for me, I did not get back
in touch with her, because I started asking questions of
my colleagues. I started self educating myself about saving for retirement,
and guys, this is pre podcast era, pre internet, just
you couldn't get that information. I mean, I started subscribing
to magazines like Money magazine, and what I started to

(07:49):
learn was, yes, teachers had a pension, but they also
had not one, but two supplemental retirement plans. And at
the time I learned about the four H three B,
the oldest retirement plan available to teachers. It actually surprisingly
to people when they hear this. It predates the four
one K by twenty years. So the four H three

(08:10):
B was created nineteen fifty eight. So and teachers can
also contribute to a four to fifty seven B, but
it wasn't as common at that time, the early nineties.
And we'll get into the fourty seven because I actually
think it's a better plan than the four H three B.
But I started researching the four oh three B, and
I was horrified when I found out because I had
learned you wanted to save in low cost funds. Vanguard

(08:34):
is the company I kept hearing about when I would read,
you know, money magazine Kiplinger Personal Finance. But that wasn't
the case for teachers. Listen to this, guys. I taught
in a school district called Corona, Norco Unified School District
in nineteen ninety two. They had, I'm not kidding you,
one hundred different financial companies available.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Could you talk about choice overload?

Speaker 4 (08:58):
Oh my god? And then imagine each company might have
let's just say modestly six different investment choices which we
know is on the very, very very low end. So
you're talking it's almost like the number of combinations of
Starbuck drinks, right, what is that ten thousand? I don't know,
So it is overwhelming. And then the thing you find

(09:18):
out is it's mostly a sales army that is selling
these products. They're going into classrooms, they're going into staff lounges,
they're providing so called free lunch. And so now we're
like three four years from this encounter, and I'm getting
angry and angrier because I'm sitting in my staff lounge
and I'm hearing my colleagues say, oh, my guy or
my woman, Oh yeah, I'm all set up. And now

(09:41):
I was a little bit savvy. I could ask questions,
what do you know what you're paying in fees? Oh,
there's no fees, right, That's like the funny thing. As
soon as you hear that, you know, the BS detector
goes off. And so with one colleague, I said, well,
I can almost bet my life that you're paying some
type of fee. Why don't you your statement and I'll
take a look, And she did, and I was able

(10:04):
to show her where she was paying. I think it
was over two percent. Not only that, there was a
fifteen year surrender penalty. Oh my gosh, so she wanted
to move hers too. And actually, here's what's crazy. Vanguard
was actually available. So of those one hundred vendors, you
go down the list, oh my god, there's Vanguard. So
I signed up with Vanguard, and I admit I felt

(10:25):
kind of smug. I had yet to meet anyone at
this point in my district who had contributed to Vanguard,
because I had to open it myself. They had all
gone with the sales agent who had come to the room,
to their staff lounge. But this colleague I helped. She said,
Oh my gosh, you should put on workshops. So now
we're getting to like nineteen eighty ninety eight, ninety nine,

(10:46):
and the internet's becoming a thing. People are starting websites.
I mean, it was very very raw back then. And
I started four or three BIS with a fellow teacher
who's no longer in. And I have to tell you, guys,
I kind of think part of our secret sauce is
our name. We initially had an absurdly long name like

(11:08):
teacher financial Information dot com, and we just knew that
was a loser of a name, and my buddy and
I was really a perfect collaboration because he said, I've
heard that you want to have the name of what
you're doing in the title, So you want four to
oh three B. At the time was I had a
young child and we were reading a book called baby Wise.

(11:29):
I don't even know if that's a thing anymore. It's
this whole philosophy around raising kids, and so I think
that's what was in my mind, and it just seemed
to make sense. Four to oh three be wise, and
we think that's kind of a little bit of it. Yeah,
it works, It's so simple, and so we launched it
in two thousand and all of a sudden, a teacher

(11:51):
from LA who had been advocating for four oh three
b's before me, gentleman named Steve Shuloh, who I call
the godfather of four oh three B reform, he heard
about our website and he started promoting it, and then
he contacted me and said, hey, listen, there's a reporter
from US News and World Report coming out to LA

(12:12):
to interview me about the K twelve four oh three B.
I'll see if he wants to talk to you, and
he did. So we were living. I was living in
Orange County at the time. So he came and we
met at a restaurant, and you know, I think it
was just a little blurb in a story, but he
put our website four oh threebwis dot org, and all
of a sudden, you know, you could track your visitorship.

(12:36):
It started spiking. And I used to listen to this
NPR show called Sound Money. It was out of Minneapolis,
and again no podcast back then, so if you want
to listen to this radio program, you are at the
radio at the designated time, and I think it was
like eleven am on Saturdays. I would usually be in
my yard working on my vegetable garden, and it was

(12:57):
something I look forward to all week. So I emailed
them and I said, oh, I love what you guys do.
I would love if you covered the four oh three
b oh By the way, I have this website four
oh three be wise, and we were just mentioned in
US News and World Report almost immediately, probably like within
two hours. This is on a Saturday. They emailed me

(13:19):
back and they said, oh, that sounds like a great topic.
Would you like to be on our show in like
two weeks And immediately Guys, my fingers got moist, and
because of life nerves, I'm like, oh my god, I'm
going to be on this radio show. And so I
somehow survived, and boy did our visitorship spike so much

(13:40):
so that someone from TIA Kraf reached out to me
and said, hey, we love what you're doing. We've been
wanting to help reform the four h three BE market
in California. Guys, in California, we have this insane insurance
code from when Nixon was the president that says if

(14:01):
a school district offers one four to oh three B vendor,
they have to open it up to all vendors. That's
why we had one hundred vendors. That's why LA had
two one hundred and fifty vendors. Can you imagine aggregating
that money?

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Bad laws essentially create a terrible system.

Speaker 4 (14:18):
It's incentives, right, people respond to incentives. You're going to
allow two hundred and fifty vendors? Think of all the
sales agents. It was insane. It's a little bit better now.
So we got involved with TIA Craft to push this
legislative effort and I'm so naive. I'm like, who could
be against this? Well, I'll tell you what a one
hundred million billion dollar industry. These set of guns bought

(14:40):
the domain name four oh threebis dot net, which I
now own, But they bought that and they had the
opposite message.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
So dirty, it was so dirty, especially with so hard.
It's a labor of love. It's passionate, it's it's it's
looking over individual teachers, your friends who you work with
their statements, and then it turns into this mission that's
not profit oriented to educate people. I'm curious. I want
to talk. We want to talk a lot about four
or three bees and get into kind of some of
the nitty gritty, but I want to zoom out real quick.

(15:11):
I want to hear you wrote a book called Teach
and Retire Rich, which sounds like an oxymoron. Most teachers
aren't like, oh, what's the greatest path to wealth. Let
me go into K through twelve education. But like you know,
and you mentioned the pension. A lot of teachers across
the country they get summers off. They might get a
good pension, but yeah, talk to me about the smaller paycheck.

(15:32):
Can teachers retire comfortably with the right know how and
the right follow through? Why do you believe that teachers
can retire wealthy.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
Yeah, we need to start with the definition of rich.
Now if you're talking about having like an island house
and fifteen cars. No, When I think about teaching, I
think of the intrinsic rewards. While it is an unbelievably exhausting,
difficult job that has only got harder, I believe the
job today is almost twice as hard as it is

(16:02):
that when I was teaching. There is you are the
target on so many fronts. You've got email. It is
a very difficult job. I could only do it for
twelve years. But I've already talked about it. We've touched
on it. You have a pension. Not many professions provide
a pension anymore, and you have not one but two
to find contribution plans similar to the four to oh

(16:25):
one K two four to one K like retirement plans
the four oh three B and the four to fifty
seven B. And again, I think teacher salaries should be
much higher, there is no doubt about that. But if
you can be diligent with starting a four oh three
B early in your career, assuming you've got good choices,
and that's not always the case, and that's what our

(16:46):
mission is with you four oh three B. Wise, we're
now a nonprofit dot org and we'll probably get into that.
But you have your pension, you have your four oh
three B. You can also do a four to fifty
seven B. But my message to any educator listening is,
especially young ones, start with the wroth Ira. The reason

(17:06):
is you get to have a low cost company like
a Vanguard, a Fidelity. These are the companies we want
teachers to have in their four oh three B and
four fifty seven B, and often they don't and they
have to fight to get those at it. And again
that's what our website's about. But I would say anyone
listening at a minimum have a roth Ira to start then.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
So even even just a roth Ira at a low
cost provider that you have maxed out over a working
lifetime in combo with the pensions, that in and of
itself can be set you up for a significantly NXE retirement.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
Well, not to mention too, just the ability to contribute
both to a four to three B and a four
to fifty seven maxing both of those out having separate,
separate contribution limits. But it's interesting too. I guess Dan,
like you're you're talking. I feel like we can have
a whole conversation about how teaching has become harder. I
feel like we could have a whole discussion about like
social media and parents maybe seeming like that they're on

(18:01):
your side, but advocating for their students, for the kids,
it's yeah, incredibly difficult. And because of that, it seems
like most teachers, they don't stick with a profession, yes, right,
like like much less.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
With a specific school district.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
How should the different stats out there about teachers leaving
the profession impact, you know, how it is that they
approach their investments. Should it be more of a let's
focus on an individual, my individual contributions and being able
to have my retirement essentially migrate with me, no matter
what industry I'm in, no matter what job I should have.

Speaker 4 (18:31):
Well, you've just touched on an issue that's gotten even
more challenging in the wake of COVID, and that is
teacher attrition. And when I was a teacher, you know,
five the five year mark was the big one many
I think it was forty percent. I think was the
statistic I recall from my time teaching that people left
the profession, and I would guess it's even a little

(18:51):
bit higher now. So again I'm not trying to get
people out of the classroom. I always say that when
we talk on this topic. But if you're a first
year teacher, you know have that roth IRA for sure.
Because it's so flexible. It's not tied to your employer,
so if you leave your employer, you don't have to
do anything with it. You can keep doing that. But

(19:12):
let's say you start teaching, you think you're going to
do it for a while or not even sure. I
would say do a four to fifty seven B first.
And the reason is it has this huge advantage over
to the four oh three B. One. There's a little
bit more fiduciary protection than afforded in a four to
oh three B see the four oh three B. The
reason it's so awful is it's not subject to ARISSA,

(19:36):
the Federal Employee Retirement Income Security Act. That the four
to oh win K is. The four to win K
employer who offered the terrible products that a K twelve
employer does would be sued. But because the K twelve
four to oh three B governmental four oh three b's
fall outside of Arisa, they are awful. Forty seven b's

(19:58):
have two advantages. There's a little bit more fiduciar requirement.
It's usually at the state level. But the big one
is when you separate service, when you leave your employer,
if you have a four fifty seven B, you will
and you leave so you're no longer employed. You can
take that four fifty seven B money and you can
access it penalty free. You'll still owe taxes on it,

(20:20):
but you will not be penalized. With the four h
three B. You have to wait until your age fifty
five to do that. So if you're one of these
fire people and you think you might want to retire
at fifty forty five, and you're an educator, maximize the
four fifty seven B. If you're one of these people,
aren't sure you're going to stay in the profession, and
you already maximize your wrath, do the four fifty seven

(20:42):
B again, assuming you've got a decent vendor.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Do you think that too many teachers avoid investing in
these accounts because they're assuming they're going to work for
thirty years and get that sweet pension, and they're like,
I don't need to and plus I mean, let me
be honest, we touched on the fact that pays not incredible,
So our teachers just less likely to invest because they're
like resting on their laurels of that pension. And then

(21:06):
the teachers who don't invest for ten twelve years and
then leave that profession and their pension is not nearly
as good as they thought it was going to be
or potentially non existent, then they're like, at the biggest disadvantage.
It's like going to college for four years but not
getting the degree, getting a degree to pay for it.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
Yeah. No, it's such a good question, and it's a
good comparison. And what makes it even worse in a
state like California is you don't contribute to Social Security
And many teachers don't even know this. You know. We
do these free zoom events once once a month where
we call it office hours, where we take questions for
an hour, and my partner is a fiduciary advisor, and

(21:41):
so I always joke it's actually not us taking questions,
it's him, because he's so good. But we find a
lot of people who attend these say, oh, I left
teaching and I found out I hadn't been contributing to
social Security for all those years teaching. So I think
there's about a dozen a dozen states where that's not
the case. So I don't know, you know, teacher by teacher,

(22:05):
it's only anecdotal. What I will say is school districts
are not teaching teachers about their retirement plans. Our dream
is that every school district would put on an unbiased
retirement plan workshop that says, here's your pension, here's how
it works, here's the four oh three B, here's the
four fifty seven. But what's happening is sometimes the vendors,

(22:29):
the high cost vendors like Equitable, one of the worst
of the worst, they have somehow made inroads with school
districts and they're putting on so called financial workshops, often
at new teacher orientations. They were doing this at San
Francisco Unified. I had a friend of a friend who
worked there and she told me this is what was happening.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
A school of fish. Man.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
It is.

Speaker 4 (22:51):
It's almost it's frankly, it's worse than doing nothing at all,
or they'll have a benefits fair and who has who
has booths? So something we do and I'll make this
offer to your audience. We put on three one hour
zoom sessions. We will do it for any school district
in the country. I think we've already done about twenty
five to thirty so far this year. Yes, they're super popular.

(23:13):
And what we hear again and again it ties back
to your question, is people saying I've been teaching twenty years,
no one told me about this. So I think a
lot of it is just they don't know what they
don't know.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
In a lot of cases though, it sounds like, yeah,
avoiding the four to three B altogether, maybe focusing on
the four fifty seven because of those fiduciary protections. Do
you also have four fifty seven B wise, Well, we do, yeah.

Speaker 4 (23:39):
Because of our experience being you know, with those that
nefarious approach all those years ago. And yeah, and the
big thing is, you know something I think one of
our best resources we have on four oh threebwis dot
org is we are attempting to upload every school district
four oh three B and four fifty seven B. Wow.

(24:00):
What an undertaker? Yeah, undertaking. I feel like I'm gonna
need an undertaker if I actually.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
By the end of it, actually you'll get an undertaker
by Dan at Costco Casket just in case you know.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
Well by now right, that's a smart financial move.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
Well least, like you said, these big names are probably
coming after you because you are keeping their.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
I don't want to call them.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Their customers, but you know how it is that they've
view they see them as no exactly, it's it's a
way for them to to line their pockets. But we
actually do we do have a lot more to get
to with you, Dan. We do have some specific questions
about the four to three B. We'll get to all
that right after this. All right, we're back to the break.

(24:44):
We're still talking about how you can teach.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
You can be a teacher, you can work in K
through twelve education, and you can still retire rich, which
is I think a great message and not one that
most people think lines up with reality. But our guest,
Dan Honor has done a good job of filling us
in on why that is the case. But you have
to know the pitfalls to avoid, and we were talking
about how kind of the foxes in the henhouse here
when it comes to the retirement. The companies out there

(25:09):
trying to lure teachers into investing with them. Dan you
mentioned how I guess you had like one hundred plus
options too, of places you can invest with your four
or three B. And it makes you think of why
Matt and I like the store Aldi to shop back
because it's like there's two catchups or one like there's
not much choice in Supermans. It's fine, right, yeah, And

(25:29):
we know that it's star cheap because that's just what
ALDI prioritizes. They don't prioritize lots of choice. So how
do teachers How can they know if their four H
three B is a good one, if they have good choices,
if they have solid options or not when it comes
to the investments that are being offered to them.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
Well, that is the question we have gotten the most
over the years. So we finally decided to do something
about it. And I would say two or three years
ago we started a database of K twelve four H
three B vendorless. Now, guys, they are close to fourteen
thousand school districts in the country. So what we've done
is we've created something called the Rating Project, the Planned

(26:11):
Rating Project. In what we do, it's two steps. We
rate the vendors. First using a simple traffic light system
red bad, yellow, caution green good. So we take about
the fifty most popular four or three B vendors. And
when I say popular, I don't mean good because most
of them are bad, and we give them a color

(26:33):
rating and the overwhelming majority of them are red. So
then when we get a school district vendor list, so
we will take a look at it. We will list
all of the vendors and if they have a green
vendor available, we will give a check. And to date,
we have got over forty six hundred districts in our

(26:55):
vendor database. And because we've focused on big school districts,
we think that we have the data covering close to
two million educators and we believe we have about fifty
five percent of all participants. Now, there's a lot of
districts that are very small. So if you want to
see if we have your information your school district's information,

(27:16):
from the top of our homepage, there's a state you'll
see the tool. You select your state and then it'll
populate with the school district and you click that and
if we have your information, you'll see the vendors, you
will see an overall grade, you'll see a link to
an explanation of the grade. And if you have a

(27:38):
green vendor, a good vendor like a Fidelity, a Vanguard,
that will be a green check. Now, if you search
and we don't have your information, there'll be a prompt
for you to submit the information. And all you need
to do is just go on maybe a website at
your school district or contact your benefits officials and say, hey,
who are our four or three B vendors? Guyschool districts

(28:00):
make it so difficult. I spent too much time in
my life looking at school district websites trying to find
the four H three B information. It is maddening. And
this sort of goes back to the question teachers don't
know because we make it so hard for them.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
What was it? Some of it seems like purposely hidden almost, Yeah,
it's it's it's like hospitals who are supposed to federally
I believe new law means they have to declare certain
prices on their website, and they just they put it
in like an unindexible spot. There's like they get paid
for that. We're compliant, but we don't want anybody to
see this information.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
Well, I'm curious, like you're talking about some of the
different benefits fairs and how some like a player like Equitable,
they might have the premier spot, like right when you
enter in, they got the big table, the cool slanners. Yeah,
the awesome swag because they can afford it. Because but
I guess I'm curious, are there other incentives? Like are
there other ways that some of the different school districts

(28:54):
are How are these bigger players, I guess swaying some
of these different school distric to go with them as
opposed to something like a fidelity or a Vanguard, some
of our favorite low cost options.

Speaker 4 (29:05):
Yeah. Well, there's something called the Association of School Business
Officials asbo okay, which you know, again you work as
a benefits official. It's really nice to be connected to
a professional organization that could help you with the latest rules,
because the rules and regulations. I went to one of
these events and it was held at Disney World, and yeah,

(29:28):
I was a guest of TIA craft because I spoke
to some superintendents and a sort of small meeting about
the importance of the four H three B and guys.
I was grossed out by the opulence in the just
gross amount of money there was, like ice sculptures, but
even worse. Who were the main advertisers equitable? I think

(29:53):
American Fidelity. I think Security Benefit the worst of the worst.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
American Fidelity, by the way, no investments American Fidelity. They're
the ones putting on the ice luge, and we.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
Call them American infidelity. So they are terrible. Yeah, so
this is these are the things. That's how they're mined.
And the NEA, the National Education Association, we are pro union,
but when it comes to the four oh three B
most unions are awful. The NEA has what we call
an unholy alliance with Security Benefit. Security Benefit has a

(30:27):
product that has a five percent load. Shameful, shameful gentlemen
that they're doing this. But some unions are good, so
I don't want to say all, but that's a big
national union. The ATC much better on this.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
We talked and Dan, you know this quite well. And
this is something we talk about baking on the show.
The fee that you pay dramatically is impacts what your
nest egg is going to like in retirement. So if
you're paying a five percent load, and that's on top
of an annual fee, a fun fee, you might have
less than half as much in retirement with the fee

(31:01):
that large, is my guest. I mean, I'm sure you
know the numbers on that.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:04):
Absolutely, you're already like negative seven in the hole, right,
five five percent to the load and then two percent
in fees. Man, that makes a difference over time.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
So let's say some of the logs on and they're
you know, they're looking up their district. They don't see
it up there. You solicit them for the name of
their providers, so that maybe y'all can do some more digging.
But for the other individuals, individuals out there, is that
what they should be looking at? Are they looking at
their annual fees? You mentioned earlier some of the surrender fees,
some of the surrender charges that accompany these different planes.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
As well, right, and oh they're terrible.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
I guess what are some of those factors that folks
should be looking out for as they're trying to evaluate
on their own whether or not they've got a good
four or three B or not.

Speaker 4 (31:46):
Well, you mentioned the f word, right, fees And it
is very difficult to find the fees because these these
documents are just insanely.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Long and they're legallyes.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
Basically, what I would say is, go to our homepage,
and at the top you will see our district rating tool.
How good or bad are your district's four h three
B four fifty seven B vendors. Click that and what
you're gonna see are a list in boxes green, yellow,
and red. Ignore all the red. See if you've got

(32:21):
the green or yellow. You're gonna want to look at that.
And there's a little info button and if you hit that,
it'll show why these are considered good vendors. You know,
you don't have to use a salesperson, there's no surrendered charges,
there's no revenue share. You can get index funds for
under zero point two percent. Those are the metrics you

(32:42):
want to pay attention to when selecting nice who to
invest with.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Okay, let's say there's a teacher listening out there, or
a friend who knows somebody who's teached been a teacher
for a decade or longer, and they've been investing in
their four or three B and they're starting to scratch
their head. Oh my gosh, what have I been investing in?
I don't think I have being fidelity. Maybe I'm investing
in a way that's really bad. Maybe I am investing
in one of these red companies. You mentioned surrender charges

(33:09):
being a reality. What do teachers need to know if
they have been investing in their four or three v
regularly before they try to pull their money out of
that red investment, if they look it up on your
website before they make any changes, Like, how do they
know how to proceed.

Speaker 4 (33:22):
It's such a good question, and it's heartbreaking because we'll
hear from teachers that say something in along lines of
I thought I was doing the right thing. I thought
I was ensuring my financial future. I thought this person
was endorsed by the school district. Why would the school
district let someone from Equitable come onto my campus if

(33:42):
this was not a quality vendor, Folks, I don't know
if you know this or not. A couple of years ago,
Equable got fined fifty million dollars by the SEC for
hiding certain fees. Why any school district in the country
would continue to allow that company to sell to their
most valuable resource employees is beyond me. I think it's malpractice.

(34:04):
So that what we always say to these teachers. First
of all, it's not your fault. You didn't know what
you didn't know, but now you do. You've got a
couple options. Here's the best option. Stop contributing. You have
to go fill out a new salary reduction agreement. So
you go to your benefits office, fill out it out
a new salary reduction agreement. This just directs how much

(34:27):
money per paycheck into what company? Zero that out? Hopefully
you have one of the green vendors available. So let's
take the good scenario.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
First.

Speaker 4 (34:38):
Look, you have Fidelity available, and increasingly they are being
added to vendorless. Go ahead, contact Fidelity. Your district should
have that information. You have to do it yourself. You
know you're not going to use a financial salesperson for this.
You do it yourself. Very simple process. You open an account,

(34:58):
you go back to your school district, you sign a
new sire reduction agreement. You choose Fidelity. Let's say it's
two hundred dollars per paycheck. Okay, you've solved half your problem.
What do you do with the existing four h three
B If it's one of these red vendors, guys, chances
are there's going to be a surrender penalty, and even worse,

(35:20):
companies like an Equitable have something called rolling surrender charges.
So because a.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Lot so not just one penalty. It's like a penalty,
like a recurring penalty.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
Well, so what it is is typically if you've been
contributing for five to seven years, you can move that
money penalty free. And a lot of people will say, Oh,
I've been contributing for ten years, so this is great,
all my money is not subject to a penalty. Well
that's not the case. Every new contribution to Equitable starts
like a seven year window, so that contribution June first

(35:51):
or whatever, at the beginning of the month, it's locked in.
So what you want to do is you want to
contact Equitable and say, if I take my money out,
how much of it is subject to penalty. So let's
say they say, you know, let's let's say you have
twenty five thousand dollars and they say ten thousand is
move the fifteen thousand dollars to Fidelity. And this is

(36:12):
not an easy process. This is where probably our most
valuable resource comes in. I'm not a big Facebook fan,
but I will tell you the four oh three buis
Facebook group is amazing. Guys, we just hit sixteen thousand members.
The number one question how do I get out of Equitable?
That is the number one reason people join this. So

(36:33):
what that also means, though, is there are thousands of
people in our group who successfully got out of Equitable
or in the process of trying to. We have this
amazing guy on our board, Dan Dues, who puts in
three to four hours a day or more helping people
get out of Equitable or American Fidelity. So I would say,

(36:54):
as much as I love four oh threebwis dot Org,
go to our Facebook group three b wise Facebook group
and you have to answer three questions. Do you sell
financial products? And it better be no. Are you an
education if not, why are you interested in this? And
how did you hear about us? So once you do that,
we'll approve you because it is very overwhelming to try

(37:16):
to do this stuff yourself. Also, under our education section
on four oh three B WISE, we have three main sections.
We have education, advocacy, and community. Go to the education
tab and you'll see stories on how to get out
of a four h three B. If you go to
our homepage, it's the top story under education. Stuck in

(37:38):
a bad four oh three B Click that. So we've
got web resources and we've got the Facebook group to
help you get out.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
Now, let's does it ever make financial sense by the way,
to pay a surrender feed so you can get out
of high cost investments.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
So my partner Scott has done some sort of data
digging on this, and there's sort of like a break
even amount that you want to just rip that band
aid off, And I forget exactly what that is. I
don't know if you maybe like five or six thousand,
just do it. But I also hear from people that

(38:12):
say the following, I am so pissed off. I don't
want that company to have my money because I'm twenty
five years old or thirty years old. I'm going to
teach twenty more years. I'm going to make it up.
So in many cases it's worth it. But I'm not
a financial advisor. Every situation is personal. But everybody listening
to this who decides to go down this road, be

(38:34):
loud with your school district and say, why are you
subjecting us to this? Because not only do I have
to be an expert in history, math, what you know
young working with younger children, Now I have to be
an expert in you know, the financial services world, the
byzantine world of the K twelve four or three B.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
No, it's true, I think one of the solutions might be,
like you mentioned y'all's office hours, do you mind sharing
like is that the same? Is that the same hour
every single month? Where can folks learn about that so
that they could potentially talk with y'all and actually ask
some specific questions, maybe give y'all for specific numbers to
figure out that break even point.

Speaker 4 (39:11):
Absolutely, what we usually do is we take July off,
So our next one is August twenty first. If you
go to the Hope page four oh three b wis
dot org right in the middle under advocacy, you'll see
August twenty first, live event. Click that register there and
it's awesome. We all we often get like repeat people

(39:32):
who just want to come in and listen, and so
he has become a little bit of a community. Some
people have big a beer glass.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
That's awesome.

Speaker 4 (39:39):
It's a fun thing. If you are fired up by
what I'm telling you, you want to get more fired up.
On our home page you can access a special short
podcast that we've created called learn by Being Burned. It's
not me, it's not my partner Scott talking. We are
in it a little bit, but it's teachers from across
the country talking about how they got burned, how they
were sold the terrible plans, but then how they learned

(40:02):
and how they're advocating change. Because we meet guys a
lot of the lone wolf in the school district. I'm
the only one talking about this when I go to
the school benefits office. They don't want to hear me.
We say, you want to. This is a war, folks.
I hate to use a bad metaphor, but you need
more soldiers. The way you get more foot soldiers is
you get them tuned into the problem and they will

(40:25):
by listening to learn by being burned. Now you're going
to the school board meeting and it's ten of you,
twenty of you. You're going to the district, it's ten
of you, twenty of you, thirty of you. Be the
squeaky wheel because it could meet half a million more
dollars in retirement.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah yeah, I mean, like, what's the Superhero crew with
Superman and all those guys called the Justice League? Yeah, yeah,
like Superman a team. Yeah, he's like awesome, but he
can't do it all by himself either. He's the help
of his palace. And so yeah, I think you're right, Dan,
Like you might be the superman leading the charge, the
first one to kind of sound the alarm and create
such a buzz around them. But we need a lot
of other people out there doing the same thing and

(41:02):
helping in their communities. Speaking of which, we want to
talk about advocacy. We'll get to just a few more
questions with you on that topic when we come back
from the break.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
All right, we are back from the break speaking with
Dan Otter, founder of four three bys dot org. And Dan,
just before the break, you mentioned learned by being burned,
and I think the ability for teachers out there to
get fired up because they might be thinking, yeah, like
I think that that's a problem in our district, but
I'm not totally sure. I feel like when you hear

(41:37):
some of these narratives like that, like that's the fire,
that's the fuel that you need poured on the fire
to really get you fired out righteous anger.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
To make some changes.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah, and we've kind of been talking about four to
three B stuff specifically, and let's just zoom out for
maybe a second. I've heard you say that many teachers
choose their investments, like their funds, based on maybe some
of the different highlighted recent returns that those funds have experience,
but you call that a fool's errand can you speak
to that for a moment.

Speaker 4 (42:03):
Yeah, I did this myself when I first started investing.
I would get Money magazine and what was the hot
fund that was on the cover. I would invest in that.
And then I started listening to someone named John Bogel,
the late John Bogel, who I actually met. Guys, I
got invited to the campus and I got to I'll
just tell you about the experience real quick, because that's awesome.

(42:24):
They wanted to talk to me about the four oh
three B personal finance issues and when I got there,
and what's cool is the campus outside of Philadelphia in
Valley Forge. The buildings, at least the original ones are built.
They look like ships, so if you had like a
drone that's flying over it. Because he was enamored with ships, right,
vanguard leading ship. And so anyway, I get this like

(42:45):
agenda and it says, oh, meet with these people, these people,
meet with John Bogel, And I'm like, I'm going to
meet with John Bogel because he still had an office
there when he was retired. And guys, I gotta tell you,
it was so cool outside of his office. There was
a poster and it was a post or run by
the financial service industry who were threatened by the introduction
of index funds, right low cost way to invest. These

(43:08):
guys tried to attack John Bogel, one of the greatest
capitalists ever, by calling index funds an American. Think about that.
So he's read about that poster. It was it was great.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
So yeah, it's it's anti American to think that somebody
should be investing just like everybody else. No, we're Americans.
We rise above everybody else. We're heading shoulders better.

Speaker 4 (43:31):
So bad, it's so bad. But you know, obviously he
got the last laugh. So my philosophy is low cost
index funds. Do that and forget about it. Go on
about your life. Think about a teacher. You've got a
pension that could be like, consider your fixed asset portion
of your portfolio. And again I'm not giving financial advice
because I'm not a financial advisor, but here's how I

(43:52):
thought about it. When I was teaching. My pension is
my fixed assets. I'm going one hundred percent into the
Vanguard SMP five hundred. I would probably do the total
stock market index. Now, if I was teaching because you
know it's it's you know, it's more more stocks. But
come on, folks, right now, there's three or four companies

(44:14):
that are driving the market right and I'm not smart
enough to pick those four or five. I'd rather take
the whole basket, as John Bogo always said. And eventually
every year there's going to be a few driving the market.
And yes, the market goes down, folks, if you're young,
you should be celebrating the market going down. A couple
of years ago it was down. I took my daughter's like,

(44:36):
oh my my Vanguard fund is going down. I go, Lily,
you are buying shares on sale. Yes, as a guy
that's fifty nine now who's lived through a bunch of
ups and downs, I'm going to be able to retire
on the money I put into the market in the
mid well, the late two thousands, right, two thousand and eight,
two thousand and nine, that's when I really made money

(44:58):
because I continued.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
To ap preach it.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Dan Otter, I think the point too about teachers should
be investing again, not specific financial advice, but they have
the ability to invest in a more aggressive manner because
they have that backstop of the pension that most people
don't have. So most people they have to be a
little more thoughtful potentially about their fun choices, especially the
closer they get to retirement. But teachers have the ability

(45:23):
to load up more on assets like stocks because over
the long haul those will perform better. So, especially if
you're a teacher in your thirties and four ers, you
might say, oh, I need to kind of mix this out.
I need to balance. But you have that balance with
the pension. You might not need to do that inside
of your actual investments in a four or three B
or four to fifty seven.

Speaker 4 (45:40):
Absolutely, And the one thing we do here consistently, guys,
is that a lot of teachers say, I don't know
how to do this myself. I can't do this as
someone who taught. Teaching is complex. If you can teach,
you can do this yourself. But let's say you are
someone listening saying there's no way I can do this.
I feel like you have two options. Just get a
target date retired fund from a company like Vanguard, one

(46:02):
of the green vendors. Pick a date in the future
you think you might retire. The farther you are from
that date, the more it's allocated to stocks. It automatically
gets less risky the closer you get to retirement. I
know you guys know all about that. If you're someone
that wants to talk to someone, we are not against that.
We're against you talking to the sales agents and the
staff lounge, the sales agent who comes into your classroom.

(46:25):
You want to use a fiduciary advisor, and we have
a resource on that. You would click the education section
and then you under managing your four H three B.
You would click a resource called working with a professional
with a financial professional. It talks about you want to
use a CFP, You want your advisor to sign a

(46:46):
fiduciary pledge. We have a printable fiduciary pledge that you
can use. We have twenty questions you should ask any
advisor you might use. And we also have organizations where
you can find a fiduciary advisor. X Y Planning Network,
Garrett Planning Network, the National Association of Personal Financial Advisors.

(47:07):
There is nothing wrong with using a financial professional, but
only use a fiduciary. Guys, you probably know this. Here's
the big thing. They have to be a fiduciary. All
the time we're hearing about equitable salespeople with cfps who
are fiduciaries some of the time, big, big difference. You

(47:28):
must be a fiduciary all the time.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
You got to make sure those incentives are aligned as well.
Stand on your site. I mean, y'all even say this,
you say that part of your goal for for three
of you wis is to not even exist anymore. Exactly,
like you are trying to help folks put me out
of business, which is eventually going to put you. It's
going to like, yeah, it cause you to be fired
and you can right off into the sunset, Dan, exactly.

(47:50):
I mean that being said, We've covered a lot of
ground here, But do you have any final advice for
any teachers out there or folks who might who might
have teachers in their lives that they love.

Speaker 4 (47:59):
Sure? Absolutely, and guys, thanks for the time to talk
about this issue. You can probably see I'm super passionate about.
One thing I didn't mention is we're a nonprofit, so
we sell nothing. Okay, we are blessed to be funded
by Tim Ranzetta, who runs the amazing nonprofit. I don't
know if you guys heard of next Gen Personal Finances.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah, oh, personal Finance classes across America are springing up
because of them.

Speaker 4 (48:20):
And right now, twenty five stays across the country are
going to guarantee personal finance to graduates of American high schools.
Tim's goal by twenty thirty is all fifty. He heard
about us from the series of articles in the New
York Times that we help the reporters with. He reached
out to me and said, what can I do to
help you? This guy is amazing, So because of his generosity,

(48:44):
I do this full time. We sell nothing. If you're
a teacher listening, this can seem overwhelming. It's like anything
else in life. Go slow, take your time, Spend a
little time looking at our website. Spend a little time.
I'm going to the four H three B Wives Facebook group,

(49:04):
listen to some of our podcasts. Maybe come to our
next event on August twenty. First, begin to self educate.
Don't do anything until you're ready. If you're someone who's
already in a four H three B and you find
out it's a red vendor, do not beat yourself up.
You did not know what you didn't know. Now, if

(49:24):
you listen to this podcast and then go open an
account with equitable I don't know what to tell you,
but be kind to yourself because no one taught you this,
all right, listen to people like Matt and Joel. Okay,
learn more about John Bogel. Okay. There are so many
resources out there and teachers, thank you for being teachers.

(49:48):
You are the real superheroes.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
A lot more resources than when you started. Dan, you
had to fight, you know, they talk about you know,
our parents saying I had to walk to school, kill
both ways in the snow. That's what I felt like.
Podcasts in the Internet and stuff like that. And now
it's so much easier to arm yourself with the information,
with the resources necessary, and in a much shorter timeframe.
So at the end your your mission is laudable. Resources
like yours are what are helping thousands and more than that,

(50:14):
really of teachers make smarter, wiser choices with their money,
avoid fees so that they can build a healthy financial future.
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Speaker 4 (50:23):
It is my absolute pleasure. Thank you for what you
guys are doing. You guys are killing.

Speaker 3 (50:27):
It nice Joel Man, this has been such a great
conversation and I'm so glad we were able to have
Dan on to talk about. I mean to dedicate an
entire episode basically to teachers. Right, teachers aren't the only
ones who have four to three bees, but they're the
I think the vast majority of folks who do have
four to three bees.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
But plus, Dan's last name is one of the cutest
animals in the world. Right, otters, everybody loves honors.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
But yeah, do you have a big takeaway from our
discussion today?

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Okay, So I think my biggest takeaway there was so
much I learned a lot in this one, just kind
of not banking on your pension as a teacher, not
resting on your laurels, and allowing that to be your
retirement plan in and of itself. Right, I think one
because you don't know how long you're going to be
in the profession, like you might think you know you might,
but things always change. You never know where your life

(51:14):
is going to take you. So don't bank on I'm
gonna be here thirty years. I'm going to collect that
pension if that works out, and you oversaved because you
also invested in a roth Ira in a four to
fifty seven b Like, that's not the worst case outcome
I've heard of worse problems. Yeah, but a worse outcome
could be I banked on the pension, I didn't invest
anything else. I left the teaching profession early, now starting
from scratch again when it comes to retirement saving. So

(51:36):
I just think that's like high value information. Do not
let the pension influence your lack of investing in other areas.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah, And so my big takeaway is going to be
for all the teachers out there, at the very least,
make sure you don't have equitable or American infidelity as
they like to call them. But because there are so
many folks out there, but it sounds like that they
have the vast majority of for three b's out there
and some of the different.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Days and so kind of a dirty corner on the market.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Yeah, and it makes it I mean, yeah, them beginning
hit with like a fifteen million dollar fine for hidened fees,
Like these are the kind of companies that we don't
want to be doing business with.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
It might be like a.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Lah Wells Fargo in the personal banking.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
Space, but but just with four to three bees and
so yeah, make sure to head over to four to
threebwys dot org. If you're like, well, I'm pretty sure
I don't have them, but I'm not sure if I've
got a green or a yellow or God Forbid or
red provider, But yeah, make sure to check that out.
That way you can know whether or not you're paying
something like two percent a year with fifteen year surrender

(52:35):
rolling surrender fees.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
And considering the slough of companies you might have available
to you. You might not recognize the name, you might
not know what company you're investing in, and hopefully four
or three b wis can help you kind of uncover
and figure out whether the current plane you're in is
good or bad, and then how to shift if it sucks.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
That's right, But uh, all right, buddy, you and I
enjoyed a Blanche the Nashville.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
This is a beer by Yeah Zoo. This is a wit.
What were your thoughts?

Speaker 1 (53:01):
Perfect summer beer? It was light, refreshing, it was had
bright notes, had like like light peachy vibes.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
I thought I was gonna say lemony it was to
me it was very acidic, kind of lemony, bright out. Yes,
similar like some wits that you enjoy, and they're more
like banana wit.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
This is more like light floral wits. But yeah, I
certainly enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah, a little of that, like almost like new fruit,
the light fuzz kind of vibe.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
Barely ripe. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was feeling. Looks
like this is a collaboration with Brooklyn Brewery, so that's
pretty cool. Nice. Have you ever had a beer by
Yazoo a half?

Speaker 3 (53:34):
Yeah, they're out of Nashville. Okay, I believe Yeah I
said that, but you didn't hear me. But yeah, I
might need to look into more of their beers. But
I'm glad you were able to pick this one up
that we're able to enjoy it today.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
No doubt.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
All right, but that's gonna be it for this episode.
Will put links to some of this too, four or
three buy some of the other things that Dan mentioned
up on our website at how to money dot com.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
Yeah, maybe where it is that you can register for
their office hours come August twenty first, and we'll link
to that.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
And if you've been listening and you're like, I'm not
a teacher, but man, that sure sucks for teachers, We'll
find a teacher you know, and maybe point them in
the direction of this episode.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
I guarantee everybody out there and knows at least like
a couple of school teachers. And I'm guessing you don't
want them to be destitute and poor. They're old age,
all right. That's gonna be for this one body until
next time. Best friends are out, Best friends out,