Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Eva Longoria and I am Myra and
welcome to Hungry for History, a podcast that explores our
past and present through food. On every episode, we'll talk
about the history of some of our favorite dishes, ingredients,
and beverages from our culture.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
So make yourself at home. Echel. People are kind of
think all we want to do is talk about meat.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I know, but this time we're talking about the breaded
and fried kind of meat.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
I mean, who did like breaded and fried meat? Today's
episode is all about Mila Nacy and the.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Chicken fried and steak.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I have the best memories eating chicken fried steak. It
was a big deal in our house because there was
a place down the street like steakhouse. It was what
was it so lloin Stockade and you know, graduate or baptism.
We would get to go out to eat at this
(01:03):
thik dancy place and I would always order.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
The chicken bride steak.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
So did you eat more chicken fried steak than Milanisa
at home?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You know?
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Growing I've never had Milanisa. I never had milanesa growing up,
you had Milanisa.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I never.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I didn't have chicken fried steak until I moved to college.
We had melanessa, but not like the chicken milanaise, which
is what I make now all the time. It was
beef like thin beef, tenderized beef, breaded and.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Like Italian like Italian style.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Like Italian style, And that's what I always had, and
it's one of my greatest food memories because it's something
that my mom made all the time.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
No, but we've established it. You had a bougier growing
up than I did, because.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Well, you know what I think it is.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I think it's more that Laredo is more mechs right,
is more Mexican. And even I just learned this recently
when this area, Texas became part of the Republic of Texas.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
For those ten years, Laredo was like, no, we're good,
We're Mexican.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
So Laredo is so Mexican, and I think that this
is why so different.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
No, I grew up with chicken fried stak, which is,
by the way, not a Panco kind of breadedness.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
It is a.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Thick batter. It's like more batter than beef, you know
what I mean. It's like very very batter heavy.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Chicken fr stiak is such a Texas dish. Right when
I think of Texas. I think of chili barbecue and
chicken fried stake. Chicken fried steak you have to eat
with gravy totally. You have to otherwise It's like, what's
the point the Milanessa that we would have it was
just the milanesa on the plate. And I think when
we were kids, my mom would make like French fries
or something like that, or salad, and we always had
(02:51):
it in lime and I had it with a one sauce.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
See, you were fancy.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
A fancy one sauce was fancy in our house.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
You had a one sauce. Good for you, we did.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I'm gonna I'm in Laredo and I'm gonna make it
with my mom. It's like I haven't had my mom's
been ascent forever.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
But let me let's talk about it, Like where does
it come from?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Because I feel like when you say milanesa, it's milanaise,
you know, I mean, yes, Italian.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
It comes from the which is a classic of Milan's cuisine.
So yes Italian, and it gets the name of the dish.
It comes from the meat that was traditionally used for it,
that is traditionally used for it, called l which is
a whole inch of thick bone in veal, so it's
(03:45):
a thick veal chop right, and it's been a specialty
of this area since the twelfth century a Milan, Yes, Milan,
the Lombardi region, at least it's probably before. But there's
a book that recorded a feast from the year eleven
thirty four with by historian Pietro Veri in the book
(04:07):
of the History of Milan, and he talks about a
course of lombo skumpanio, which is a breaded veal loin Milanese.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Came because because of the region exactly wiener Schnitzel.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Wait, so there, what's a weener Shitzel. The wener Schnitzel.
Theitle is the which I say Wiener.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
I say wiener Schnitzel because I am American and not
that educated.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I say, but yes, it's the Veener Schnitzel.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Is basically like a cousin of the gotto let la milanis,
so it's similar. Common theory is that the gotoleta la
Milana was introduced to Vienna in eighteen fifty seven by
a field Marshal Joseph Radetski, who was in Lombardi.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
That was then a part of the Austrian Empire. But
so this is.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
A but in reality, breaded cutlets have appeared in Austrian
cookbooks well before this time.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
There is a debate.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
The debate is that veener schnitzel is so central to
the country's cuisine that the ingredients that make up the
dish are defined by law. So it has to be
made from a veal cutlet, which is pounded super thin
than dredge and flour, egg bread comes and then fried
and lard or butter.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Vienna, So stitchel veener snitchel Schnitzel, I can't do it. It's
the cutlet from Vienna, cutlet.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
All right.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Veen is the name of Vienna, the capital of Austria,
and snitzel is cutlet.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Why are we having such a hard time, my.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
God, Jesus, really hard. It's just the cut of meat.
That's the only difference, right one. The mela, they say,
is loin and boning, and the schnitzel is without bone,
comes from the flank or the rump, and that's very similar.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Very similar.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
If fried food is king in America, then chicken brid
steak is royalty.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
At least for us. Right because we're from Texas. Correct, Yes,
don't go anywhere.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
We're diving into the history of chicken fried steak next.
So you did have chicken fried steak? Right?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Are you team white gravy or brown gravy?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
I think for chicken fried steak white gavy, white, creamy,
white and creamy and just.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Peppery, peppery peppers of pepper.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yes, like it has that woomph to each bite. And
what is its connection to Texas?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Well, it has it's connected to these two dishes. So
there's one theory that claims that a man named Jimmy
Don Perkins, he was a short arder cook at Lamasa, Texas,
at a place called Ethel's Home Cooking, and that he
invented the dish by accident in nineteen eleven. According to legend,
Jimmy down misread an order for chicken and fried seake
(07:17):
and chicken fried steak was born. But in reality, the
dish was introduced in the mid eighteen hundreds by German,
Austrian and Czech in Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Yeah, that makes sense because you know tekano music is
based on German polka.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yes, so there was a lot of German influence in Texas.
A lot. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
In the eighteen hundreds, thousands of primarily middle class farmers
and artisans from West and central Germany arrived in Texas
seeking opportunities, and by the twentieth century, more than forty
thousand Germans populated a stretch of Texas known as the
German Belt.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
So it's close to.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
San Antonio, New Bronfas and Curvelle. In Curvelle, Yeah, they
settled there and they found a ton of beef.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Oh my god, wait, is this true that during the
Civil War Texas supplied the Confederacy with beef, which led
to a steep rise in cattle population. Yesn't that wild.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
We supplied, We supplied the beef to the I know,
it's horrible. Yeah, I know, come on, Dixes. But then
they switched to cheaper cuts of beef. The one thing
I would do say is like I prefer the texture
of a chicken price steak because it's thicker, but it's tougher.
You gotta you have apt a sharp knife, and it's like,
it's not the best cut of meat.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
And it never was. It never was like you gotta cut,
you gotta cut deep.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
And so the the switching to a cheaper cut of
meat obviously occurred somewhere along the line.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, exactly, pounded, tenderize it like crazy, and then bred
it and fry the hell out of it.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
It just reflected the tougher times in Texas, right, like
the tough struggles of early settlers trying to make something
out of nothing. Uh, you know, like kind of all
home cooked dishes. I'm sure there was many variations then.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yeah, like you said, the struggles, so the dish, they're
trying to make something delicious, delectable out of, you know,
a tough cut of meat. Texans call it the perfect
marriage of meat batter in Greece.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah, you gotta, you gotta pound that meat. And and
you know this is our. The batter for chicken freast
steak is milk flour. You know, it's not pancoa.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
It's not panco no, no, no, it's flour.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
It's egg.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
It's flour again. And then it's fried and large and
lard and gold and brown. Like you said, with mashed
potatoes and gravy just clog those arteries.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
There's a West Texas version that just does the meat
and flour, no egg, and that's what cowboys called pan
fried steak.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I actually heard of that one before pan brad steak.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
East Texas has a version dipped an egg and then flour,
similar to Southern fried chicken, and then Central Texas is
closer to the venersintil with bread crumbs instead of flours,
so they're different variations. But an early printed American recipe
is in the La Times from nineteen twenty four, so
it appears as beef steak rolled and flour fried in
(10:25):
a pan and served with country gravy, so the steak
placed over the gravy.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I've always had it the other way around. Where can
you find the best chicken fried steak? Is it only
a Texas sneak?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
I think it's a Southern like a Kansas and Oklahoma
also have chicken fried steak, But I had an amazing
one at a restaurant in Bandera last summer called the
Old Spanish Trail Restaurant, and it's one of the oldest
continuously operating restaurants in the state. It's been in business
for over one hundred years and they claim to have
(10:58):
world's best chicken steak. I'm such a sucker for people
that say world's best this or Texas best that but
that is the best chicken fried steak that I've ever had.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
What about you in Katula, Texas, if anybody's passing through Coatula, Texas,
Jaj's Country Store, that's really good country pri steak.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
And let me tell you dairy queen, dairy queen.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
In Texas with the if you can find one that
serves food, and if you find one that has the
steak fingers, the steak finger basket, it's it's chicken fried steak,
but instead of like chicken fingers, it's steak and you
dip it in your gravy.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It's the best. That's dairy it's like the best days queen. Really.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Yes, Laredo for sure, dairy Queen Laredo's have it. Falfouria's
had it. Falfouria's dairy queen. And in the Valley and
Corpus Christie there's still one dairy queen that has chicken
fried steak fingers.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Okay, because I'm in Laredo and there's dairy queen not
far from my mom's house, yes, take it out.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
It's like it's very hard to find a dairy queen
that serves food nowadays.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
And if they do.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Yeah, they don't serve the food anymore. And now if
they do, it's a burger, it's a burger and fries thing.
But there's certain places that have the steak binger bascot.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Yeah, I have to try it. I've never I've only
ever had their their dipped. Well not just that, but
I have all the ice cream.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
It's the best. Oh my god. I was just in
a studios.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
I was just in a studios and I ate and
you asked me, and I was like, I have.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
No idea what you're talking about. And the day you
asked me, have you eaten a kutcha pool? A gotcha pool?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Gotcha poo? How do you say it? Pol You're like,
have you eaten a katcho pool? And you sent me
a picture? I go, no, I've never seen that. I
haven't been.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
I haven't seen it. I was there for like two weeks,
literally the last two days.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
That's all I saw.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
And I had it.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yes, I meant to send you a picture. Yes, but.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
It's it's so it's veal, but it has ham and cheese.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Inside of it, and it's but it's super thin.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
It's definitely pounded out and it's like a cord on blue.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
That's what I thought it was.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Yeah, I didn't really associate it with like a a
milanaise or Veener schnitzel. I was like, oh, this is
a cool cord on blue because it had the ham
and cheese inside of it.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
But it's breaded and fried. It was bread bread. It
was delicious. It was delicious.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
I'm not a fan of milonnaise or the Riener Schnitzel
or this thing.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Because I find them dry. I find it dry. It's
too thin of a cut.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's like it's that's why I think my chicken fried
steak is like with the gravy and it's super battery
and it's a thicker cut of meat.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
It's like just heartier.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
This whole like milanaise with a salad on top, and
it's like not my thing. So it wasn't my thing,
although I will say, I will say adding the cheese
inside the breading made it less dry. And I was
going to have any of those three, it would have
been the because it was just moist. More moist, because
it's right. But I think it's real. I think it
(14:08):
is real.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
But the main thing is that it's stuffed. Yeah, like
a stuffed. Yeah, that's so much because there are these these.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Similar foods, you know, all over this sort of breaded
and fried foods.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
I've been all over Spain, and that's the only place
that has that dish. It's not like, oh, let me
go have that in Madrid, or let me go have
that in Marbea.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
It's not like a Spanish dish. It's righty from the
north of Spain, which is weird in relation to Italy
or Vienna. It's not any bar. Let's go way back.
I always am.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Interested in, like who did it first, Like who dredged
meat in flour or whatever and fried it?
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Like how far back does this go?
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Dredging meat all kinds of meat and flour and frying
or baking.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
It dates back to ancient times.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
The cooking method really tendorizes the meat and enhances the flavor.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Right, fried stuff tastes good.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
So it's impossible really to say who was frying, who
was doing it first, because this was being done well
before recipes we were recording.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
But it's an art. Frying is an art.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Like if the temperature of the oil is too low,
the food is kind of gross and greasy. If it's
too high, the outside will burn, the inside won't really cook.
But if it's just right, this sort of flour egg
breadcrumb becomes magic. It sort of instantly becomes the seal,
preventing the fat from entering the meat.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
So it's just sort of perfect. Where does the term
golden brown like that comes from?
Speaker 1 (15:45):
What?
Speaker 3 (15:46):
I this is something that I that I love to
this reference, right, It may come from the practice of
gilding food and gold that was popular during the Byzantine
era and medieval period. And I say may be because
there are some references to this, and some people are like, oh, yes,
this is why this idea of gold and brown, that's
(16:06):
something so romantic. In the tenth century, the Byzantine emperor
named Constantine, the seventh por Pharaohgenitus, he wrote about these
descriptions of imperial ceremonies and he mentions fried bread crumbs
resembling gilded gold. And so during the Middle Ages, putting
gold in your food was a way to show off. Well,
(16:28):
it's like, wealthy people used to do this, and they
used food and gold so much that in the sixteenth century,
the Council of Venice set limits on the amount of
gold that could be used in the kitchen. And legend
has it that not being able to use gold, cooks
of this sixteenth century in Venice looked to bread crumbs
that they would fry until golden brown.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Well, you know, I have never been to Argentina, but
I have a lot of Argentinian friends, and I know
the Italians had a huge settlement in Argentina little way
so that milanaise had to be popular in Latin America.
I mean it had to have gone with the Italian immigrants.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Yes, in the nineteenth century, tons of Italian immigrants, and
so from milanaise to milanais, it's one of the most
popular dishes, like you said, in Argentina Nuduay. Huge Italian
populations in both countries, and Argentina's first published recipe for
milanessa is in a book called in a cookbook al
(17:29):
Manaca la Cocina Argentina of eighteen eighties.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Argentina has a milanes a day May third.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
But in Mexico we also see early recipes for milanessa
in the nineteenth and early twentieth century.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Also because of the.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Italian immigrants, and in Mexico it has always been a
staple of home cooking, which is what I grew up with,
typically made with thinly pounded bistick or thinly pounded meat.
My mom and I had so much fun cooking milanesa together.
I hadn't tasted it in so many years. I must say.
She got a little nervous once I put the mic
(18:04):
on her, warning there are giggles.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
Lista okay, that metal.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Plate, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Plate She explains, to lay out three plates, one with flour,
one with three beaten eggs, and one with bread crumbs
mixed with salt and pepper.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
The and there, okay, and the plate.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Where was the new plateau?
Speaker 1 (18:48):
That is?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Okay? Le pongo?
Speaker 4 (18:56):
No?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I find it out with each other.
Speaker 6 (18:58):
Okay, gis as a sender and stay at the end
of they go well.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
And plato cavili.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
When I found saw my younger brother showed up, she
forgot she was miked and for a split second sounded
like her normal sweet and sassy self.
Speaker 7 (19:28):
Turn Hello, do you go hellos.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
And flour, egg, bread crumbs dry, wet dry, yeah, super
arena wabo fan yellow bell get it and then we
fry on both sides until golden brown and lay out
(20:02):
on paper towels to absorb any excess oil. It was delicious.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
It's come on and chicken price.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Okay, my brother said the Milanessa tasted like a time.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Machine, a.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Machine.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
See what are your song? So in Mexico, there is
a late nineteenth century recipe from a cookbook from a
woman named Martinez from Jalisco, and it's different and it's
it's really interesting because it cuts. It calls for cutting
(20:55):
the meat into small pieces and then pounding the meat
like most of them, for pounding the meat and then
putting them in vinegar, salt and pepper, before the beaten
egg and bread crumbs and frying and lard. And that
one she serves with tomato, sauce, lettuce and radish.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I've really seen that. I have you had that?
Speaker 6 (21:14):
Never?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Never, But it's an interesting worst.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
It's one of the earliest recorded recipes for milanessa and
it's something completely different.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
So but it's interesting because our least go is west
and you and I are from northern Mexico. Technically, I
could see why we have the Zener Schnitzel, But the
milanac you grew up with that's so weird to me
because I we Di didn't grow up with it, and
we don't really have it in Mexico. In Mexico City,
where I live, we don't. We don't really. I mean,
(21:43):
I'm sure it's that's some restaurants, but it's not like common.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, I feel like in Laredo, definitely, it's more of
a home thing. It's not something that you really see
in restaurants. It's more of sort of the steple of
home home cooking. It's delicious. It's the ultimate comfort food
for me.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Alongside Fierre, alongside Fidel, Tacos best the best. So Argentina
has a chicken fried Steak date. Texas has a Chicken
fried Steak Day October twenty.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Sixth twenty six and there's a chicken fried steak song.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
What Yes.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
A singer named Jimmy Baldwin. He wrote Peace, Love, and
Chicken fried Steak to fight racism in the States.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Wow, that's actually a good song.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
A line in the song says, we've got to learn
to love one another, white, black, brown, We're all just brothers.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
I'm no guru, but I know what it'll take a
taste of chicken fried steak.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
I agree, I agree, I agree, Jimmy Baldwin, I agree.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Well, we want to hear from you.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
What did you grow up eating Amila Neesa or chicken
fried steak or a Wiener Schnitzel.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Leave us a message wherever you're listening to us, and
while you're there, please rate us.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Hungry for History is a hyphen a media production in
partnership with Iheart'smichaelpura podcast Network.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts