November 13, 2025 • 23 mins
This week, Eva and Maite serve up the surprisingly spicy history of mustard—from ancient apothecaries to royal tables, the rise of Dijon as the mustard capital of the world, and its journey to the Americas. Along the way, they uncover the mysterious moutardier, or mustard-maker. And Maite quizzes Eva to see just how well she knows her mustards!
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
My name is Evil Longoria and I am Myra and
welcome to Hungry for History, a podcast that explores are
past and present through food.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
On every episode, we'll talk about the history of some
of our favorite dishes, ingredients, and beverages from our culture.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
So make yourself at home.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
When you know, every time I open up my email
on a podcast day, I read the episode and I'm like,
how did might they come up with?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
This? Mustard is something that I really leaned into. I
was like, tell me more. And you know, if you
ever heard the.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Expression you can't cut the mustard, it means you can't
hack it, you're not meeting the expectations.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
But where did that come from? What is that?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Why is it you can't you can't cut mustard. I'm
really good at everything, and I can't cut mustard.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well, they don't really know where this term came from from.
The first time it actually appears is in.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
A dictionary in Texas.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Maybe it was like you can't mustard it and then
somebody has said mustard.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
So it's a very bizarre expression.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
And yes, I come up with the weirdest the topics
because I'm literally interested in absolutely everything.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Everything me too.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
And mustard is one of the first domesticated crops, and
you were just in dijon. I was, indeed, So it's like, well,
of course we're going to talk about mustard.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
You know, it's been cultivated for thousands of years.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
It's seeds have produced mustard as for a condiment for
an oil, so of course we have to talk about mustard.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I love yellow mustard.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I'm actually not a fan of Djon mustard unless it's
in a vinagrette.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, oh my gosh, I love I probably have more mustards.
I have a ton of different kinds of mustards, a
ton of different kinds of salts, and a ton of
different kinds of vinegars.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
We have spoken about this.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Coming back to me now about your mustard cabinet. What
do you mean, what does that mean? What does that
look like?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
The mustard well in refrigerator, I have whole green mustard, Dijon,
different kinds of Dijon mustards. I have, of course, yellow mustard.
I have Deli mustard. I just love it. I just
use it for different things, for sandwiches, for salad dressings,
for marinades. It's so versatile and it just gives everything
(02:26):
a pop.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Is it your favorite condiment, probably because you don't like mayonnaise.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
No, I don't like mayonnaise. I hate mayonnaise. So see
I use I'm team mayonnaise. Oh use mayonnaise on everything.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, another thing we disagree about. But I will say
when I was in Djon. I was in Djon and
people think they're known for Djon mustard, which they are,
but they're known for mustard. They make all all kinds
of mustards there, and so it was fascinating because I
was in the field and the harvest was happening of
(02:59):
that wow seeds, and you know, when you see it
and look at it and the whole history of it
is pretty pretty amazing, I mean fascinating to me.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah. But you know, like if I'm eating a.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Hot dog, I like mustard, not ketchup, And my husband
likes ketchup.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
He doesn't use mustard, which is weird. I use both.
Oh you use both.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
See.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
You know here's another thing.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Waterburger mustard and ketchup are the best in the world.
Like if I could have the water Burger mustard on everything,
then I would probably be a bigger mustard fan.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
What is it about Waterburger?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Waterburger for those that don't know is like the best
burger place in Texas.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
It was born in Corpus Christi dix Is, by the way.
I didn't love that.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
The headquarters were an corpus uh. And they have spicy ketchup,
which I buy. My mom buys me and sends it
when she comes to visit in La. She brings me
spicy Ketchup. You've never had Waterburger spicy ketchup. Of course,
I've had Waterburger. It's the best. I mean, it's way
better than in and Out, I think, but I don't.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I'm way better picture. I can't picture their mustard the
their ketchup. But their mustard is really I mean it's
really tangy. It's like it hits you right here.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
In the and the jaw.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Oh okay, I need to go when I go back
to Texas, I'm going to go and taste it. But
They're mustard is very distinct, right, It's a yellow mustard,
but it's I don't know what they do with it,
but it's it's definitely it has it has a pup.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I get to the bottom of it. Potato salad cannot
survive without mustard and a vinaigrette. You have to put
a little bit of mustard in a vinaigrette.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
You'd put djon. You can't put yellow mustard in a
no djon mustard, Okay. Mustard is one of the first
domesticated crops, meaning we learned how to cultivate it.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
When was that?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
How long ago? Was that?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Thousands of Like everything is like thousands of years ago.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So the mustard family consists of about thirty six hundred
different species.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Most of them are wild and they're related.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
They're in the cabbage f family, so they're related to
kale and collared greens, but only three of them make mustard.
And again it's been domesticated for thousands of years, and
they come from different parts of the world. So the
white or yellow mustard is native to the Mediterranean, like
the mediterrane basin like North Africa and Europe, and then
(05:21):
the brown mustard native to India, Nepal and parts of
South Asia. And then the black mustard is also native
to the Mediterranean and to the Middle East. And so
through ancient trade routes, these mustards, these these three different
types of mustard plants that make seeds became a staple
all over Europe, in Asia, and eventually in the Americas.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
What do your mean three thousand, six hundreds, that's that's
a lot. Like I told you, in Dijon, they make
all mustard, and there were so many different kinds, and
I was like, oh, I thought you only made Dijon
mustard Indijon, So did I?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Actually I didn't. We make think about it.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
They make every They make all of it, white, yellow, brown, black,
all of it. So let's talk about how mustard is made,
because it's a simple process. It's just you know, you
have to soak the seeds overnight in a blend of
vinegar and water, and then you grind them into a
paste and you can add salt or flavorings like tumeric
or garlic. Some people add honey, and then you have
(06:21):
to let it rest before enjoying it. And you know,
there's all these different flavor profiles of the three main mustards,
which is white slash yellow mustard, which is weird because
I had never seen white mustard. But like white white
yellow mustard, which is the mildest, it's a little bitter,
(06:43):
a hint of sweetness. That's probably the one that Americans
are most familiar with, right.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Yeah, and it's the white yellow mustard. It's the seeds
are white or yellowish.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Oh, the seeds are white or yellow, okay.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
And then the brown mustard seeds created like a spicier pepper,
peppery bite.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
That's one that's really.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Common in Dijon and also in Indian It's in many
Indian pickles and curries.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Is the brown mustard.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
And then the black mustard, which I've never seen or tasted,
have you black mustard?
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Actually no, I haven't.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I was just gonna say I've tasted the black mustard
seeds and like India when I've made like Indian food.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
But now that you said that, no, it's not the black,
it's the brown. But it's like it's super intense.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, it's very intense, pungent. It's almost like was sabi.
And it's usually used in South Asian cooking, some European recipes,
but mostly South Asian cookies.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
So are the people that first cultivated mustard.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
The cultivation of its super ancient mustard seeds have been
found in archaeological contexts dating back, you know, thousands of
years in ancient India and summer in Egypt, and mustard
seeds were so valuable to the ancient Egyptians that they
used to place them in their tombs for the afterlife.
They were thought to have medicinal and protective properties and
(08:03):
like ward off the evil eyes and all of the
things that you would need in this life and also
and then the afterlife. But then moving forward, like the
ancient Greeks and Romans used it for flavor and also
for health benefits. And there's this diascord, he said Turkish
born Greek physician. He wrote an early treatise on medicine,
(08:24):
and he wrote about the use of mustard as a treatment.
He would make these like compresses like poultices with mustard
seeds and use them for like for aches and pains,
to clear sinuses, and this kind of became a standard,
and you know, for thousands of years, healers would have
mustard in their bag of cures. Ancient Chinese used to
(08:48):
use mustard seeds for digestive purposes. And it wasn't until
the Romans that we start seeing the word mustard.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, because in France it's muda that it's mod mutad,
And so I was like, oh, did it mustard come
from mutad or where did the word mustard come from.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
It actually comes from Latin.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
It has Latin roots because the Romans used to mix
crushed mustard seeds with unfermented grape juice, and this unfermented
grape cheese was called must and so they would create
this spicy paste and it was like a burning must
So the words mustard and the French mutard come from
this mustem ardens, which is the Latin for this sort
(09:31):
of burning must. So basically the Romans were making mustard,
and that's where the word comes from.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
So it comes from the Roman.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
So the Romans introduced mustard plants into what is now
France and England, and they gave rise to the fame
de jon mustard that they've been manufacturing there since the
thirteenth century.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Wow at least.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
So, I mean, spices were huge in the Middle Ages
in Europe. I mean we talk a lot about this
in other episodes. And how you know, spices were so
big because food could not be conserved right like food
went bad. And then if food were bad, they would
just like put all these spices to make it taste
better or also to salt meat right to salt. So
(10:15):
so many spices available in the Middle Ages was mustard.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Having a moment in the Middle Ages.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
It was and it was a plant, so it was
one of the few spices that was readily available, you know, everywhere,
and they loved mustard so much during the Middle Ages
that they created this position of the mutardier. I want
to be a mutardier, right, it's so specific. So it's
a crafts person, a merchant that specialized in making and
(10:41):
selling mustard. So this was a job that was created
during the Middle Ages.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
You know that the pope had their own mutadiers. The
French monasteries of course, especially around France and Djon, they
became famous for cultivating mustard, not only as a culinary
delight and medicine. They had guild similar to bakers and
butchers at this time, with regulations and standards for quality
and ingredients and hygiene, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, and the mutardier they selected, they ground their they
mixed mustard seeds with you know, wine and vinegar to
create these mustard plants and they sold them fresh.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
They sold mustard fresh like a you know, cheese or
a butter cellar.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And then sometimes in some towns mutardier were household specialists
and they would you know, work with noble or wealthy kitchen,
so they were kind of like a like sauce makers.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
And by the.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Fourteenth century Dijon was the epicenter of fine mustard making,
and Dejeon became known for their incredible mustards. Even Louis
the fourteenth was one of mustard's biggest admirers. During his
reign in seventeenth century, he granted an edict around Dijon
as the sole maker of authentic Dijon mustard, and he
of course had his own mutardier and there was always
(11:54):
mustard prepared by his own guy at every table.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Did it become commercial in the fourteenth century because of
this appellation that let Louis the fourteenth gave them, or.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
It had already become more of the commercial center by
the fourteenth century. And so there are different brands. The
one male how do you say, m I Mail antoine
Claude Mail. He opened up a small mustard chop and
he became wow like his reputation for like making this
incredible mustard, and he became popular among the French court
(12:37):
and kind of help put Dijon mustard on the map
in France and beyond.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And he was the first one to bottle mustard in
glass jars rather than selling it in bulk, which was
super revolutionary.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
It was super revolute.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Now we wouldn't we don't even think about it, right,
but it is super revolutionary.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Well, I'm like when you talked about like they would
just serve it fresh, I'm like, how they would serve
it fresh? Howe? Why we wouldn't it be in a
glass jar? But that came so much later, that's amazing.
So this Mayel he became the supplier to the French court,
and then he became a household name in France.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
And beyond because of his mustard. Dijon mustard gained this
reputation for being the finest mustard in France, and then
you know, eventually it became a global brand.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
The one the global brand that I know, which I
think everybody knows is great popon?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Now is that from Dijon? Is that from Dijon? It is?
It is?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
I remember those commercials from the eighties.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
I love do those commercials the best?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
The best? So this was these nineteen eighties commercials. Two
Rose Royces pull up side by side and he's like.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Yeah, pardon man, do you have any great poupon?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, that's why I associate Dijon mustard as like a delicacy,
sophistic hated form of like yellow Frenches mustard, you know
what I mean, Like I really.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
Am because of this commercial. Because of this commercial. Yes,
it was a very very effective ad campaign. It's the
first Dijon mustard I ever tasted, of course. So it
was founded in seventeen seventy seven by Maurice Gray and
Auguste Poupon.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Maurice Gray was an inventor who developed this machine that
could grind the mustard seeds into really fine paste, and
he partnered with Aguste Poopon, who was a banker and.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Green that's a great white one, so that Poupon was
just a banker.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
It was Gray who had the machine.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Gray was the guy. Gray was the guy.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Well.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
They also their recipe used white wine instead of vinegar,
and so that gave Dijon mustard this like signature smoothness
and like a little bit of tang. And I distinctly
remember tasting Gray poupon for the first time and I
was like, I didn't like it, but I did think like, ooh,
that's different.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Because it's like when you're a kid it's like, well,
this is a little too strong.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
And it was brought to the US in the nineteen forties,
and in the nineteen eighties it became this phenomenon when
Craft Foods bought it and launched this super memorable ad campaign.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So when did mustard arrive in Latin America and Mexico.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
The seeds were brought in the fifteen hundreds, right the
Spaniards bus to musters plants, and they used it as
a spice and as a medicine, just like they had
been in Europe.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
And then in the late eighteen hundreds, during the.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Portfiitiato, Mexico City's elite was sort of fell head over
heels with French cuisine and we started seeing jon mustard
gray seeing banquet tables. But it was in the twentieth century,
especially along the US border, like in states like Sonarda,
i'm Bacha and Tamauripas, American yellow mustard jumped from the
American ballpark hot dog to the sonda on hot dogs
(15:52):
and tortas and elotes. And even before that, actually you
see the mustard seeds in traditional pickled halapang. So it's
this condiment that has crossed oceans and galleons, and you know,
dined with the leads, and now we see it on
our street foods. You know, even nelote has a little
bit of mustard just to give it a little bit
of pop.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Well, it's not used in our cuisine very much.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
More like in tortas and stuff and the street hot
dogs and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
But yeah, not a lot, not a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
But there's some companies like Costagna makes a mustard, make
some there's some companies that make their own mustard, but
it's much milder, even than.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
American yellow mustard.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
But what I think is so interesting that most mustard
seeds all over the world, most mustard seeds comes from Canada.
They produce ighty percent of mustard seed experts, even Maela
and Gray Poo Pond have been using Canadian grown seeds
for decades.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
What I know they have. But that's like Mexico. I mean,
that's like vanilla.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
It all comes from Madagascar, not Mexico.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
And so, but who consumes the most mustard in the world.
I think France.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, France is the largest consumer of mustard.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
So when we come back, how many types of mustards
can you name?
Speaker 3 (17:13):
I'm putting eve it to the test.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
After the break, none, I can name two.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
We're going to do a quiz many shades of mustard,
all right.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
So it's gonna be multiple choice. Because I was looking
at R and I was like, this is so hard.
So which mustard made its debut at the nineteen oh
four Saint Louis World's Fairest Cream Salad?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Mustard? Oh, cream salad? What does that mean? Cream salad?
That's how they marketed it. I'll give you. I'm gonna
give you three choices. Okay, go ahead, go ahead, give me.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Graye Houpon, Dijon mustard. French is yellow mustard? Are kernel mustard?
What year did you say?
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Nineteen oh four at the Saint Louis Ville was in Vijon.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Because it didn't come till nineteen forty. I was paying attention.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
You were paying attention. Say French is yellow.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yes, French is yellow mustard.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Oh yeah, it right, Oh my god, it right. Definitely
not Colonel Mustard either. He was from Clue, so it
was from Clue.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I was like, he had a mustard. I had a mustard.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
French is yellow mustard, created by George and Francis French,
two brothers and they introduced it as cream salad mustard.
At the time, cream you know, salads were basically everything
from it was like a cold it could be like
dainty tea sandwiches. But they introduced a mild, tangy, turmeric,
(18:50):
bright yellow mustard that was perfect for hot dogs that
were also gaining popularity at the time.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Okay, can you.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Name the mustard granted a royal warrant by Queen Victory
Corry in eighteen sixty six A mister mustard worth b
Sir Kensington's mustard See Coleman's English Mustard.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Coleman's English Mustard, Coleman's English Mustard. Yeah, oh, God of God,
and the other ones do exist. I didn't make them up. Oh,
I was like, the other one sound fake.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Mister Mustards was is fake. But the other one I did,
Oh that counted, Fae Kensington does exist. Yeah, so Coleman's
it was. The British mustard industry arose in Tewksbury in
the sixteenth century, and mustards from that area became knowns
for its strength, and in seventeen twenty a woman named
(19:46):
Missus Clements of Tewksbury discovered how to make how to
dried mustard seeds enough to form a powder, and in
eighteen fourteen this man named Jeremiah Coleman he perfected a
blend of brown and white mustard seeds, grunting to a
fine powder that was mild with super spicy when mixed
with water. It became a Victorian kitchen staple, and Queen
(20:07):
Victoria said.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
This is fit for a royal household. Okay, which mustard got?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
It started in the US thanks to German and Jewish
immigrants in the late eighteen hundreds. Golden spicy brown mustard,
Ingelhoff for mustard and Zadi's deli gold.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I would say the first one, golden spicy mustard.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
You got them all, Oh my god, you got them mustard.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, it's a deli stable. Immigrants brought their mustard making
traditions with.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Them, and this is this really coarsely ground brown mustard
speeds that's really, you know, spicier than its yellow counterpart.
And sometimes it has horse reddish. So it's used in
pastrami and roast beef sandwiches. I love this my on
my sandwiches.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
So I think mustard is as iconic as ketchup. I
think you can't say ketchup without mustard. But how did
it make its way into American pop culture? Obviously hot
dogs had something to do with it. But like, who
introduced mustard to like the nation of the US.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, so Ben Franklin, he helped introduce mustard to this
young nation.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Benjamin when the Benjamin Franklin, the Benjamin Franklin when he
was a French ambassador, yep, and he loved classic French
mustards when he was there.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
He praised them in letters.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
He wrote so many letters praising them.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
He brought mustard seeds with him back in the US,
and he's credited with helping start America's first mustard mills
and igniting the country's taste for mustard. And then when
Thomas Jefferson served as minister to France after him, among
the foods he brought back in those eighty six crates
(21:58):
was prepared mustard from dj On And so he and
George Washington grew mustards, you know, in Monticello and at
Mount Vernon, and they experimented with making mustard prepared mustards.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
And today mustard is everywhere. It's globally diverse.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
We have super spicy Chinese mustard you know, you go
to Chinese Russiant that's super hot mustard, and then our
mild American one, the grainy hold seed. I love the
grainy whole seed mustard on salmon.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Oh well, I'm glad we did the mustard episode because
you don't like mayonnaise, so I feel this was appropriate.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I think this little teeny weeny seed tells a very
interesting story and it packs a punch.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
It packs a tangy punch. Thanks everybody for listening.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Hungry for History is a Hyphenet Media production in partnership
with Iheart's Michael Pura podcast network.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
My name is Evil Longoria and I am Myra and
welcome to Hungry for History, a podcast that explores are
past and present through food.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
On every episode, we'll talk about the history of some
of our favorite dishes, ingredients, and beverages from our culture.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
So make yourself at home.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
When you know, every time I open up my email
on a podcast day, I read the episode and I'm like,
how did might they come up with?
Speaker 3 (00:33):
This? Mustard is something that I really leaned into. I
was like, tell me more. And you know, if you
ever heard the.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Expression you can't cut the mustard, it means you can't
hack it, you're not meeting the expectations.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
But where did that come from? What is that?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Why is it you can't you can't cut mustard. I'm
really good at everything, and I can't cut mustard.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well, they don't really know where this term came from from.
The first time it actually appears is in.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
A dictionary in Texas.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Maybe it was like you can't mustard it and then
somebody has said mustard.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
So it's a very bizarre expression.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
And yes, I come up with the weirdest the topics
because I'm literally interested in absolutely everything.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Everything me too.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
And mustard is one of the first domesticated crops, and
you were just in dijon. I was, indeed, So it's like, well,
of course we're going to talk about mustard.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
You know, it's been cultivated for thousands of years.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
It's seeds have produced mustard as for a condiment for
an oil, so of course we have to talk about mustard.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I love yellow mustard.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I'm actually not a fan of Djon mustard unless it's
in a vinagrette.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, oh my gosh, I love I probably have more mustards.
I have a ton of different kinds of mustards, a
ton of different kinds of salts, and a ton of
different kinds of vinegars.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
We have spoken about this.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Coming back to me now about your mustard cabinet. What
do you mean, what does that mean? What does that
look like?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
The mustard well in refrigerator, I have whole green mustard, Dijon,
different kinds of Dijon mustards. I have, of course, yellow mustard.
I have Deli mustard. I just love it. I just
use it for different things, for sandwiches, for salad dressings,
for marinades. It's so versatile and it just gives everything
(02:26):
a pop.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Is it your favorite condiment, probably because you don't like mayonnaise.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
No, I don't like mayonnaise. I hate mayonnaise. So see
I use I'm team mayonnaise. Oh use mayonnaise on everything.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, another thing we disagree about. But I will say
when I was in Djon. I was in Djon and
people think they're known for Djon mustard, which they are,
but they're known for mustard. They make all all kinds
of mustards there, and so it was fascinating because I
was in the field and the harvest was happening of
(02:59):
that wow seeds, and you know, when you see it
and look at it and the whole history of it
is pretty pretty amazing, I mean fascinating to me.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah. But you know, like if I'm eating a.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Hot dog, I like mustard, not ketchup, And my husband
likes ketchup.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
He doesn't use mustard, which is weird. I use both.
Oh you use both.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
See.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
You know here's another thing.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Waterburger mustard and ketchup are the best in the world.
Like if I could have the water Burger mustard on everything,
then I would probably be a bigger mustard fan.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
What is it about Waterburger?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Waterburger for those that don't know is like the best
burger place in Texas.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
It was born in Corpus Christi dix Is, by the way.
I didn't love that.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
The headquarters were an corpus uh. And they have spicy ketchup,
which I buy. My mom buys me and sends it
when she comes to visit in La. She brings me
spicy Ketchup. You've never had Waterburger spicy ketchup. Of course,
I've had Waterburger. It's the best. I mean, it's way
better than in and Out, I think, but I don't.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I'm way better picture. I can't picture their mustard the
their ketchup. But their mustard is really I mean it's
really tangy. It's like it hits you right here.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
In the and the jaw.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Oh okay, I need to go when I go back
to Texas, I'm going to go and taste it. But
They're mustard is very distinct, right, It's a yellow mustard,
but it's I don't know what they do with it,
but it's it's definitely it has it has a pup.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I get to the bottom of it. Potato salad cannot
survive without mustard and a vinaigrette. You have to put
a little bit of mustard in a vinaigrette.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
You'd put djon. You can't put yellow mustard in a
no djon mustard, Okay. Mustard is one of the first
domesticated crops, meaning we learned how to cultivate it.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
When was that?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
How long ago? Was that?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Thousands of Like everything is like thousands of years ago.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So the mustard family consists of about thirty six hundred
different species.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Most of them are wild and they're related.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
They're in the cabbage f family, so they're related to
kale and collared greens, but only three of them make mustard.
And again it's been domesticated for thousands of years, and
they come from different parts of the world. So the
white or yellow mustard is native to the Mediterranean, like
the mediterrane basin like North Africa and Europe, and then
(05:21):
the brown mustard native to India, Nepal and parts of
South Asia. And then the black mustard is also native
to the Mediterranean and to the Middle East. And so
through ancient trade routes, these mustards, these these three different
types of mustard plants that make seeds became a staple
all over Europe, in Asia, and eventually in the Americas.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
What do your mean three thousand, six hundreds, that's that's
a lot. Like I told you, in Dijon, they make
all mustard, and there were so many different kinds, and
I was like, oh, I thought you only made Dijon
mustard Indijon, So did I?
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Actually I didn't. We make think about it.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
They make every They make all of it, white, yellow, brown, black,
all of it. So let's talk about how mustard is made,
because it's a simple process. It's just you know, you
have to soak the seeds overnight in a blend of
vinegar and water, and then you grind them into a
paste and you can add salt or flavorings like tumeric
or garlic. Some people add honey, and then you have
(06:21):
to let it rest before enjoying it. And you know,
there's all these different flavor profiles of the three main mustards,
which is white slash yellow mustard, which is weird because
I had never seen white mustard. But like white white
yellow mustard, which is the mildest, it's a little bitter,
(06:43):
a hint of sweetness. That's probably the one that Americans
are most familiar with, right.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Yeah, and it's the white yellow mustard. It's the seeds
are white or yellowish.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Oh, the seeds are white or yellow, okay.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
And then the brown mustard seeds created like a spicier pepper,
peppery bite.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
That's one that's really.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Common in Dijon and also in Indian It's in many
Indian pickles and curries.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Is the brown mustard.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
And then the black mustard, which I've never seen or tasted,
have you black mustard?
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Actually no, I haven't.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I was just gonna say I've tasted the black mustard
seeds and like India when I've made like Indian food.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
But now that you said that, no, it's not the black,
it's the brown. But it's like it's super intense.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, it's very intense, pungent. It's almost like was sabi.
And it's usually used in South Asian cooking, some European recipes,
but mostly South Asian cookies.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
So are the people that first cultivated mustard.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
The cultivation of its super ancient mustard seeds have been
found in archaeological contexts dating back, you know, thousands of
years in ancient India and summer in Egypt, and mustard
seeds were so valuable to the ancient Egyptians that they
used to place them in their tombs for the afterlife.
They were thought to have medicinal and protective properties and
(08:03):
like ward off the evil eyes and all of the
things that you would need in this life and also
and then the afterlife. But then moving forward, like the
ancient Greeks and Romans used it for flavor and also
for health benefits. And there's this diascord, he said Turkish
born Greek physician. He wrote an early treatise on medicine,
(08:24):
and he wrote about the use of mustard as a treatment.
He would make these like compresses like poultices with mustard
seeds and use them for like for aches and pains,
to clear sinuses, and this kind of became a standard,
and you know, for thousands of years, healers would have
mustard in their bag of cures. Ancient Chinese used to
(08:48):
use mustard seeds for digestive purposes. And it wasn't until
the Romans that we start seeing the word mustard.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, because in France it's muda that it's mod mutad,
And so I was like, oh, did it mustard come
from mutad or where did the word mustard come from.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
It actually comes from Latin.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
It has Latin roots because the Romans used to mix
crushed mustard seeds with unfermented grape juice, and this unfermented
grape cheese was called must and so they would create
this spicy paste and it was like a burning must
So the words mustard and the French mutard come from
this mustem ardens, which is the Latin for this sort
(09:31):
of burning must. So basically the Romans were making mustard,
and that's where the word comes from.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
So it comes from the Roman.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
So the Romans introduced mustard plants into what is now
France and England, and they gave rise to the fame
de jon mustard that they've been manufacturing there since the
thirteenth century.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Wow at least.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
So, I mean, spices were huge in the Middle Ages
in Europe. I mean we talk a lot about this
in other episodes. And how you know, spices were so
big because food could not be conserved right like food
went bad. And then if food were bad, they would
just like put all these spices to make it taste
better or also to salt meat right to salt. So
(10:15):
so many spices available in the Middle Ages was mustard.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Having a moment in the Middle Ages.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
It was and it was a plant, so it was
one of the few spices that was readily available, you know, everywhere,
and they loved mustard so much during the Middle Ages
that they created this position of the mutardier. I want
to be a mutardier, right, it's so specific. So it's
a crafts person, a merchant that specialized in making and
(10:41):
selling mustard. So this was a job that was created
during the Middle Ages.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
You know that the pope had their own mutadiers. The
French monasteries of course, especially around France and Djon, they
became famous for cultivating mustard, not only as a culinary
delight and medicine. They had guild similar to bakers and
butchers at this time, with regulations and standards for quality
and ingredients and hygiene, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, and the mutardier they selected, they ground their they
mixed mustard seeds with you know, wine and vinegar to
create these mustard plants and they sold them fresh.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
They sold mustard fresh like a you know, cheese or
a butter cellar.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And then sometimes in some towns mutardier were household specialists
and they would you know, work with noble or wealthy kitchen,
so they were kind of like a like sauce makers.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
And by the.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Fourteenth century Dijon was the epicenter of fine mustard making,
and Dejeon became known for their incredible mustards. Even Louis
the fourteenth was one of mustard's biggest admirers. During his
reign in seventeenth century, he granted an edict around Dijon
as the sole maker of authentic Dijon mustard, and he
of course had his own mutardier and there was always
(11:54):
mustard prepared by his own guy at every table.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Did it become commercial in the fourteenth century because of
this appellation that let Louis the fourteenth gave them, or.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
It had already become more of the commercial center by
the fourteenth century. And so there are different brands. The
one male how do you say, m I Mail antoine
Claude Mail. He opened up a small mustard chop and
he became wow like his reputation for like making this
incredible mustard, and he became popular among the French court
(12:37):
and kind of help put Dijon mustard on the map
in France and beyond.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And he was the first one to bottle mustard in
glass jars rather than selling it in bulk, which was
super revolutionary.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
It was super revolute.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Now we wouldn't we don't even think about it, right,
but it is super revolutionary.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Well, I'm like when you talked about like they would
just serve it fresh, I'm like, how they would serve
it fresh? Howe? Why we wouldn't it be in a
glass jar? But that came so much later, that's amazing.
So this Mayel he became the supplier to the French court,
and then he became a household name in France.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
And beyond because of his mustard. Dijon mustard gained this
reputation for being the finest mustard in France, and then
you know, eventually it became a global brand.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
The one the global brand that I know, which I
think everybody knows is great popon?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Now is that from Dijon? Is that from Dijon? It is?
It is?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
I remember those commercials from the eighties.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
I love do those commercials the best?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
The best? So this was these nineteen eighties commercials. Two
Rose Royces pull up side by side and he's like.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Yeah, pardon man, do you have any great poupon?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, that's why I associate Dijon mustard as like a delicacy,
sophistic hated form of like yellow Frenches mustard, you know
what I mean, Like I really.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
Am because of this commercial. Because of this commercial. Yes,
it was a very very effective ad campaign. It's the
first Dijon mustard I ever tasted, of course. So it
was founded in seventeen seventy seven by Maurice Gray and
Auguste Poupon.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Maurice Gray was an inventor who developed this machine that
could grind the mustard seeds into really fine paste, and
he partnered with Aguste Poopon, who was a banker and.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Green that's a great white one, so that Poupon was
just a banker.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
It was Gray who had the machine.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Gray was the guy. Gray was the guy.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Well.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
They also their recipe used white wine instead of vinegar,
and so that gave Dijon mustard this like signature smoothness
and like a little bit of tang. And I distinctly
remember tasting Gray poupon for the first time and I
was like, I didn't like it, but I did think like, ooh,
that's different.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Because it's like when you're a kid it's like, well,
this is a little too strong.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
And it was brought to the US in the nineteen forties,
and in the nineteen eighties it became this phenomenon when
Craft Foods bought it and launched this super memorable ad campaign.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So when did mustard arrive in Latin America and Mexico.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
The seeds were brought in the fifteen hundreds, right the
Spaniards bus to musters plants, and they used it as
a spice and as a medicine, just like they had
been in Europe.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
And then in the late eighteen hundreds, during the.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Portfiitiato, Mexico City's elite was sort of fell head over
heels with French cuisine and we started seeing jon mustard
gray seeing banquet tables. But it was in the twentieth century,
especially along the US border, like in states like Sonarda,
i'm Bacha and Tamauripas, American yellow mustard jumped from the
American ballpark hot dog to the sonda on hot dogs
(15:52):
and tortas and elotes. And even before that, actually you
see the mustard seeds in traditional pickled halapang. So it's
this condiment that has crossed oceans and galleons, and you know,
dined with the leads, and now we see it on
our street foods. You know, even nelote has a little
bit of mustard just to give it a little bit
of pop.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Well, it's not used in our cuisine very much.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
More like in tortas and stuff and the street hot
dogs and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
But yeah, not a lot, not a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
But there's some companies like Costagna makes a mustard, make
some there's some companies that make their own mustard, but
it's much milder, even than.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
American yellow mustard.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
But what I think is so interesting that most mustard
seeds all over the world, most mustard seeds comes from Canada.
They produce ighty percent of mustard seed experts, even Maela
and Gray Poo Pond have been using Canadian grown seeds
for decades.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
What I know they have. But that's like Mexico. I mean,
that's like vanilla.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
It all comes from Madagascar, not Mexico.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
And so, but who consumes the most mustard in the world.
I think France.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, France is the largest consumer of mustard.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
So when we come back, how many types of mustards
can you name?
Speaker 3 (17:13):
I'm putting eve it to the test.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
After the break, none, I can name two.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
We're going to do a quiz many shades of mustard,
all right.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
So it's gonna be multiple choice. Because I was looking
at R and I was like, this is so hard.
So which mustard made its debut at the nineteen oh
four Saint Louis World's Fairest Cream Salad?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Mustard? Oh, cream salad? What does that mean? Cream salad?
That's how they marketed it. I'll give you. I'm gonna
give you three choices. Okay, go ahead, go ahead, give me.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Graye Houpon, Dijon mustard. French is yellow mustard? Are kernel mustard?
What year did you say?
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Nineteen oh four at the Saint Louis Ville was in Vijon.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Because it didn't come till nineteen forty. I was paying attention.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
You were paying attention. Say French is yellow.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yes, French is yellow mustard.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Oh yeah, it right, Oh my god, it right. Definitely
not Colonel Mustard either. He was from Clue, so it
was from Clue.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I was like, he had a mustard. I had a mustard.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
French is yellow mustard, created by George and Francis French,
two brothers and they introduced it as cream salad mustard.
At the time, cream you know, salads were basically everything
from it was like a cold it could be like
dainty tea sandwiches. But they introduced a mild, tangy, turmeric,
(18:50):
bright yellow mustard that was perfect for hot dogs that
were also gaining popularity at the time.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Okay, can you.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Name the mustard granted a royal warrant by Queen Victory
Corry in eighteen sixty six A mister mustard worth b
Sir Kensington's mustard See Coleman's English Mustard.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Coleman's English Mustard, Coleman's English Mustard. Yeah, oh, God of God,
and the other ones do exist. I didn't make them up. Oh,
I was like, the other one sound fake.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Mister Mustards was is fake. But the other one I did,
Oh that counted, Fae Kensington does exist. Yeah, so Coleman's
it was. The British mustard industry arose in Tewksbury in
the sixteenth century, and mustards from that area became knowns
for its strength, and in seventeen twenty a woman named
(19:46):
Missus Clements of Tewksbury discovered how to make how to
dried mustard seeds enough to form a powder, and in
eighteen fourteen this man named Jeremiah Coleman he perfected a
blend of brown and white mustard seeds, grunting to a
fine powder that was mild with super spicy when mixed
with water. It became a Victorian kitchen staple, and Queen
(20:07):
Victoria said.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
This is fit for a royal household. Okay, which mustard got?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
It started in the US thanks to German and Jewish
immigrants in the late eighteen hundreds. Golden spicy brown mustard,
Ingelhoff for mustard and Zadi's deli gold.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I would say the first one, golden spicy mustard.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
You got them all, Oh my god, you got them mustard.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, it's a deli stable. Immigrants brought their mustard making
traditions with.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Them, and this is this really coarsely ground brown mustard
speeds that's really, you know, spicier than its yellow counterpart.
And sometimes it has horse reddish. So it's used in
pastrami and roast beef sandwiches. I love this my on
my sandwiches.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
So I think mustard is as iconic as ketchup. I
think you can't say ketchup without mustard. But how did
it make its way into American pop culture? Obviously hot
dogs had something to do with it. But like, who
introduced mustard to like the nation of the US.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, so Ben Franklin, he helped introduce mustard to this
young nation.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Benjamin when the Benjamin Franklin, the Benjamin Franklin when he
was a French ambassador, yep, and he loved classic French
mustards when he was there.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
He praised them in letters.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
He wrote so many letters praising them.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
He brought mustard seeds with him back in the US,
and he's credited with helping start America's first mustard mills
and igniting the country's taste for mustard. And then when
Thomas Jefferson served as minister to France after him, among
the foods he brought back in those eighty six crates
(21:58):
was prepared mustard from dj On And so he and
George Washington grew mustards, you know, in Monticello and at
Mount Vernon, and they experimented with making mustard prepared mustards.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
And today mustard is everywhere. It's globally diverse.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
We have super spicy Chinese mustard you know, you go
to Chinese Russiant that's super hot mustard, and then our
mild American one, the grainy hold seed. I love the
grainy whole seed mustard on salmon.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Oh well, I'm glad we did the mustard episode because
you don't like mayonnaise, so I feel this was appropriate.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I think this little teeny weeny seed tells a very
interesting story and it packs a punch.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
It packs a tangy punch. Thanks everybody for listening.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Hungry for History is a Hyphenet Media production in partnership
with Iheart's Michael Pura podcast network.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
MAITE GOMEZ-REJÓN
Eva Longoria
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