EP 1,053 - Allen Hughes (Director of Dear Mama, The Defiant Ones, Menace 2 Society) on Doc Writing, Tupac at 19, Goosebump Moments, Directing Denzel - I AM RAPAPORT: STEREO PODCAST

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yes, have no fear of the Iron rap Reports Stereo
podcast is here. Iron Rapports Stereo Podcast this year. This
may be the best. This podcast may be the best
interview podcast I have ever done. Alan Hughes, who directed
with his brother Menace to Society, who directed with his

(00:31):
brother Dead Presidents, who directed on his own The Defiant
Ones about Doctor Dre and Jimmy Iveen, and who just
directed another masterpiece, a five part over five hour documentary
called Dear Mama about two pac This is a masterclass

(00:54):
in podcasting, a masterclass in filmmaking. You're only as good
as your guests, and Alan Hughes is one of the
best that I've ever had on.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
I Am rap Port Stereo Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Coming up now with the great Alan, who's talking about
every single thing and more.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
I'm so proud, so excited about this episode.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Miles Jordan aka the Bleach Brothers aka the Dust brother Start.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
This puppy off for something real nice.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Start this puppy off with something real out, but most importantly,
start this I Am Rappaport Stereo Podcast museum quality episode
off with something real funky.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
See I Am Rapaport Stereo Podcast. Let's go the Great

(01:56):
Alan Hughes.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
To have you on the podcast Psyche to Talk to You,
Psyche to Pick your Brain. Got so many questions, Alan,
Who's Dear Mama five part five hours documentary about a
Fenny Chakor and Tupac Shakur. It's really an a Fenny
and Tupac Shakur documentary. You directed the Defiant Ones, which

(02:23):
was also ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Redict was that four parts?

Speaker 3 (02:27):
That was four parts?

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Four hours?

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Four hours? Yeah, a little over four hours.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
Defiant Ones, which we could do a whole podcast about
that because when I saw that, I mean I was
bugged out just by the undertaking, just everything that you
were able to capture and Defiant Ones menace to society,
the Book of Eli And like I said, the Dear
Mama five part.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Documentary, how many hours? Like? What is it? Is it
five hours total?

Speaker 3 (02:57):
That's right, Dear Mama's five hours roughly?

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, in credit.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
I've talked about it on my podcasts. I've told friends
to watch it. It's just such a feat to have
done what you did when somebody has been is documented
and talked about as much as Tupac.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
To do that the way you did it, I just
have to just I was very impressed.

Speaker 4 (03:19):
I got your bat signal on social media before I
went off social media.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Are you off?

Speaker 4 (03:24):
I'm off it completely now, especially after what Musk has
done to Twitter.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Because you're a Twitter that's just I was more on.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
My Twitter guy.

Speaker 5 (03:30):
Now.

Speaker 4 (03:31):
I would fire up the Instagram every now and then,
and then it would just afflict and the fuck my life,
you know. And that's when I saw you going on
about dear Mama. I said, I got to reach out
to him because I'm in such awe of the way
you reinvented yourself. And I don't know if I would
if we call Michael an actor per se anymore, because
you act, but you know anyone, and I just got

(03:53):
to start with this. Anyone like you that can, especially
as an actor, speak their truth and be loud and
fucking out there about your opinions is refreshing, especially now,
you know, and I'm like, who is this guy? And
how does this guy connect to that first twenty five
thirty years And it's inspiring to see you doing what
you're doing. So when I heard you were saying this stuff,

(04:14):
I go, well, I know you a little bit. I'm like,
I got to go see my man. Because however, you've
been moving whenever you've been moving and speaking your truth.
I know it started with me with the Tribe called
Quest documentary, which I was shocked by. I was like, wow,
this is one of the first hip hop documentaries that
was really great and wasn't raggedy they always do it raggedy, right,

(04:35):
And the inner workings of that partnership and the way
you documented it was innovative for me at the time
and inspiring. That was several years before the Defiant Ones.
So I just had to give you your propts. Man, just
as as a personality out there speaking your truth in
life and as a filmmaker.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
I appreciate it. And I mean that from the bottom mine. No,
I appreciate it because I have so much respect for
you and your crack staff. Yes, my crack staff, and
I know you were a howard.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
S aren't show fit every episode, all of it, every episode.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
I mean, they need to get back. We've had a
long enough break. How long does he take a break
for that? It's up scene now he only works three
days a week when he's on right, three days a week.
And I mean, like, when you get to this part
in the summer, you're like come.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
On, man, that's torture.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Come on, man, you've never been on his show. No,
you should see the defiant ones he did. We had
Jimmy in the show. Okay, he did, and he loved it.
But I'm not what do you call it?

Speaker 4 (05:28):
I must not be colorful enough for a whack pack.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
Enough for Howard Stern. You either got to be a
real rock star.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
That's a compliment or not a complic because it's like
you kind of like because people are like, are you
whack pack?

Speaker 2 (05:38):
And I'm like, I'm not, but I kind of wish
I was.

Speaker 4 (05:40):
You're low bred hybrid, you know, you know you like
you like cusp. You know, a rockstar whack pack out
into Gary's teeth right the way you go up for Gary.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
God's so brutal.

Speaker 4 (05:55):
I know that's the only time listening to Howard Stern
I go when Michael goes up and Gary, I could tell,
is the only time it really hurts.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
I made it listen.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
I'm so excited to talk to and like I said,
you know, I could literally sit here and talk to
you for an hour and a half just about the
fine ones. You know, I could talk about the menace
to society and where you and your brother are at
dead presidents and all that stuff. So I want to
stay focused because I know I can only ask you
so many things. The first question I want to ask
you is where is this business going?

Speaker 2 (06:29):
Currently? We're on strike? You guys.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Directors are not on strike, but the actors on Shrike
WGA is on strike. You know, you've been in this
business a long time, even before you made Menace as
a grown man. Now who came up, you know, very young?
Where is this business going for filmmakers and filmmaking? And
you know, filmmaking is almost like a niche thing because
TV is so strong. So what is your just take

(06:53):
on that?

Speaker 4 (06:54):
You know, it's interesting when I got into this happy
action and career of like docmentarian, when I did Define Ones.
After the Define Ones, I was making a lot of
really big deals in the documentary space. I also produced
and wrote the Arnold Schwaschningger documentary just came out of it.
Didn't know that, Yep, that's my baby, wow, and.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
Shit, I didn't know that.

Speaker 4 (07:17):
We thought the streaming we call it the Streaming Wars.
We thought the second act of the Streaming Wars was
gonna last five to ten years which is big money,
especially in documentaries, which there never was before, let alone
scripted and whatever. It lasted three years and it went busted.
And I have friends in this business that go some

(07:39):
that are moguls and hip hop stars that say, you
need to, you know, figure out what your next career
is going to be, you know, you know, scared for me.
I'm like, no, as long as you're a storyteller, there'll
always be storytelling. This is a form of storytelling. I'm
not worried about that. But what is happening is like
the documentary medium was really blown up. And Netflix, you

(08:01):
got to give them credit for like the international reach
and whether it's The Tiger King or or what was
the other series they had, The Tender Swindler, whatever the
fuck it is. They're blowing documentaries up to a level
that feature films only had the reach like that globally,
and scripted obviously was doing big limited series, you know,

(08:21):
things like White Lotus. These are like new phenomenons. Back
they used to be called mini series and they were
more like tawdry back then. I don't think this shit's
going anywhere. I think that it's gonna There was so
much that all that Fat's gonna fall by the wayside,
and there's gonna be the big three streamers. That's what's
gonna happen. And if you're a dope storyteller, you gotta

(08:42):
be telling stories into you croak.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
I mean, why not.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Did you ever think, I know you didn't think this.
Did you ever think that, like film wouldn't be the
place to go making movies.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
It's crazy to me.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
I don't think anyone saw that coming.

Speaker 4 (08:57):
Where the cinema Well, now it's like Barbie, you know,
is well look at Oppenheimer for whatever you one may
think of that film. That's a talking head films that
just did seven hundred and fifteen million dollars.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
But it's Barbie opping.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
I mean, like there used to be like you could
go to the movies every week in these joints, big joints,
little joint.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
Is, comedies, romnic comedies.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
You know, it's like.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Barbie, they're great and it's great that people wanting to
see them, but it's like it's just different.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
It's very different. Well it's you know, I mean everything
has this day.

Speaker 4 (09:31):
You know, it's like you look at the NBA now
versus the NBA in the eighties, is different.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yes, right, so, but I.

Speaker 4 (09:37):
Do think like again back to like, I don't know
why I keep bringing up White Lotus. You go, that
used to be the mid level film. Now it's ten
parts or eight parts, yes, and probably more quality in
a lot of levels. You know, ridiculous quality. The quality.
You can't argue with the quality. No, no, although the
hbos and the whatever are not what they used to
be because of who's buying them.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
Now that's what's changing.

Speaker 4 (09:59):
Like who's you know at and t own Time Warner
and that was a train wreck, and now we see
what's happening when the Discovery people come over and own
Time Warner. And I hate to say this, it's like,
you know, an owner or a manager of McDonald's taking
over the French laundry and let's get rid of the
HBO name and call it Max.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
You're like, what are you guys doing? That's all changing.

Speaker 4 (10:20):
Now, what's really changing is you have these legacy studios,
let's say Paramount. We know the history of Paramount, we
know the history of Warner Brothers. Just talk about those two.
And then you have these people that literally don't care
about the history buying these studios. They don't care about
the films. You see the Discovery Channel, people are trying

(10:40):
to do the Turner classic movies. And so the danger
now and our business is people buying these companies that
have no respect for the history of the legacy of
the brand, and that's what's turning upside down, turning the
business into garbage.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
You now, that's a good point. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Like I said, I got to hit through because I
have so many questions, but I made a pact on
myself to stay focused because there's certain things I really
want to ask you. You and your brother did the
Book of Eli. You worked with Denzel Washington? Yeah, what
was that experience like being I know you're such a
fan of cinema. I know you're you grew up a fan.
You know, when you're working with Denzel? That was years ago?

(11:20):
Now how many years ago?

Speaker 2 (11:21):
Is that?

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Ten?

Speaker 3 (11:21):
Thirteen years ago?

Speaker 1 (11:22):
Okay, thirteen years ago? What was it like to work
with Denzel Washington? What is it like working with him
as an actor? What is it like transferring your brain
from I'm working with Denzel to now I'm directing Denzel?
And how do you direct Denzel Washington? Just give me
your whole Denzel experience?

Speaker 4 (11:39):
How do you know to ask that question, because that
is the question, the last one you just said, how
do you direct Denzel Washington. I'm not gonna even call
it a Jedi mind trick because you're not playing any
mind tricks in The Ultimate Pimp. He's just got that
kind of social IQ. He's got that otherworldly emotional intelligence.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (11:58):
While we were uh up in the script for Book
of You Lie, it was a script and then Denzel
came on. He was magical, like in the we would
go to his poolhouse and just break the script down.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
Magical.

Speaker 4 (12:11):
But when it came time to role film, he, as
he says, goes between his ears and I'm you know,
the first day, I'm like, what's up. He's not the
same guy. He just goes in and he does his thing.
But to his credit, to me, pound for pound, when
you look at the stat sheet, I think he's the
greatest movie star of his generation.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
I totally agree. I totally And I'll.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
Draw a parallel Tupac in a second, but go ahead, No.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
I agree because when you look at the charisma, the looks,
the talent, the longevity of the talent.

Speaker 4 (12:49):
That's right, the gravitas, theatrical Broadway actor, right, twenty million
dollar payday actor, and he's black, so you can only
compare him to like mel Gibson and his rhyme because
Tom Cruise is more of a movie star.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
You know.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
And Tom can act too, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
Act, but he's not at the consistent level of Denzel.
Why he doesn't try to do that? No, and I
don't think he can do that.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
No, No, but mel Gibson was the close, you know,
like mel Gibson's a real act before all the I.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Don't want to digress because I'm like, oh, you're bringing
up mel Gibson and shit.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
Who else can you go?

Speaker 4 (13:25):
Because I don't want to get in trouble because I'm
a film director. Like when you look at the eighties
and nineties, Daniel day Lewis, okay, Daniel da Lewis. My
only challenge with Daniel is it's always antiquated roles, you know,
like turn the century rolls. Look at Johnny Depp's career,
an incredible, dynamic, interesting career. I don't know if Daniel

(13:47):
day Lewis can do that. I don't know if Daniel
day Lewis can do what mel Gibson did or Denzel Washington,
but I don't know if they can do what he did.
So it's apples and oranges. To answer your question about
directing Denzel, it's so so I to Tupac, you know,
like no batteries required, no direction required, you know, like

(14:07):
you don't need to do much with those guys.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
Come with When what is his process as on the set?

Speaker 1 (14:13):
You mean you're fucking me up here because you said,
like in the Poolhouse, we're breaking down the script before
we go to the process on the set when he's
breaking down the script, talk to.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Me about that, like, what do you remember?

Speaker 1 (14:25):
I know it's a while ago, and I know you're
not taking notes at the time on you know, for
this podcast, But like his understanding of a scripting character,
how is he articulating that he told?

Speaker 4 (14:35):
You know, he's going to be mad at me for
outing him on this one because this is hilarious. But
he taught me a lot about a leading man's role
in developing the script once he comes on, you know,
like me and my brother made some critical errors and
debt presidents. I feel with Lorenz Tate's character, you never
put your protagonist in a position of getting dissed and

(14:58):
not going back and and hit you know, his payback,
you know when Cuddy did that thing to him, like
Denzel would never have that. And Denzel used to sit
and we were this is hilarious. He would at one
point he was stopped and he would count pages one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.
That's seven pages. The money's not on the screen. What

(15:20):
are you talking about? The seven pages? The money's not
in the screen. That's seven pages. He's his character's not
on screen. That's a no no. And like classic Clint Eastwood,
you know, like this is the anti hero spaghetti western,
our post apocalyptic or even training day. You know, that's
seven pages. He's not on the screen. And it never

(15:42):
came across like self centered or narcissistic. It came across
like a real like science to the way you do
these things. And he was really wonderful with like understanding
what made a scene work or not work? This needs
a button right here. He did a lot of writing
on the Gary Ohman role. He would play it out
in front of him Carnegie and book at Eli. Denzel

(16:03):
would because Gary Ollmen wasn't hired yet. In fact, it
was Denzel's idea. He goes you know it would be
great for this Gary Olemen, and he would play it
out like he was Gary Olemen, and he would improvise.
And a lot of Gary's lines in the movie was
Denzel punching the script up in his poolhouse while we
were wood shedding it. So he's a wonderful writer. The
scene where he understands he inhabits the other role, he

(16:27):
and knows what to do with his role, and he
knows when the scene's working or not, and he knows
how to I don't know, he didn't force it. He
was incredible. He was incredible, and he was incredibly collaborative.
That's why he was so shocking the first day of
shooting when he became a different version of himself.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
And now I understand why.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
I love this.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
I love this when you're working with him on set
is he I worked with Samuel Jackson, and he is
when I worked with him, he knows it he wants
to do and he just does it over and over
and he smacks it, smacks it, smacks it. And that
was just a little film that I did with him.

(17:11):
Gary Olman seems like he might be like where he's
trying different things and you could talk about Gary Oleman
two within this is Denzel, and then you could also
talk about Gary Oleman is Denzel like this is how
I'm gonna do the scene. I'm locked in and I'm
just gonna kill it, kill it, kill it. Or is
he one of these where you hear about actors choices

(17:32):
finding it, which was said maybe Daniel day Lewis might
be like, I don't know. I know when I worked
with de Niro, he's ramping up during it. What is
Denzel's sort of process with it within a scene that
you know, it's written, it's rehearsed, he's shooting.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
What is his process like within the scene.

Speaker 4 (17:48):
It's pretty dialed in at that point, you know, I'm
want to say more. He's especially on Bookie Eli, he
was in his Eastwood mode where it's like to take
Jake okay, and now I pushed the third one because
that is a role of like subtlety and not a
lot of what he's known for talking. It's not a
lot of talking. There were scenes where he would get playful.

(18:09):
But I found it amusing because the first day that
we had to rehearse with Gary Olmens was Gary omens
big first big scene where he apprehends Denzel and brings
him his hinchman, bring him into the office. So we're
at the end of a shooting day and Gary Olmen,
who I adore, he's sick and he is such a

(18:29):
sweetheart too.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
He's sick. Does he is he underrated?

Speaker 4 (18:34):
He's definitely not overrated, you know, you know in the
early nineties we knew I don't know.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
Well, I think he's gotten his due now, thank.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
God, he's got I think we forget about him.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
He's almost like talk about basketball like you talk about
point guards.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
He's almost like Rod.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Strictly'd be like, oh yeah, Rod is crazy, but you
might talk about magic Isaiah Stephes.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
And then you'll go, oh, you know Rod. Oh right.
Gary Omens like.

Speaker 4 (18:58):
Oh yeah, he's that's right, that's right. There's a table
that's his desk. We're at the end of the day,
but we have to rehearse the big scene that's up
the next day. And Denzel, you know, he's stealing this,
you know in the book, Eli closed and Gary starts going,
all right, so what if I did this?

Speaker 2 (19:17):
And he starts walking that way, and he close the
chair and goes, what if.

Speaker 4 (19:20):
I did Denzel's got a scripts in his hands, and
then Gary goes. You see you see Gary like work
in the space, trying to figure out the physicality of
being the man that's in power of this town and
having this guy captured Eli and Denzel's holding the scripts,

(19:40):
and after five minutes you just see his shoulder slump
and he puts them down and goes, shit, I got
We're gonna do some work right now.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
Because Gary was really meticulously working.

Speaker 4 (19:50):
And to Denzel's credit, you know, it was Denzel's idea,
which I love to ask Gary to do the role,
but I didn't think he bargained on such a detail.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
Freak and Gary Wood.

Speaker 4 (20:01):
Once we started shooting, Gary would want to try different
things and do different things, and I love that about actors.
I love that Gary. Gary had this thing he used
to do. I used to adore. We do two takes,
we do three takes, you know, maybe around the fourth,
I go ahead, play with it, Gary, And he played
with it and I yelled cut an he go.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
Like he he would he.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Would always want one more. And I love that.

Speaker 4 (20:27):
I loved it. And the other thing I love about
Gary is I hate doing ad R. What does that
stand for? Audio dialogue? That's when in the movies where
say Michael has a line and there's a helicopter, we
have to go have him coming in recording studio and
re record his line.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
It always sucks to life out of the performance.

Speaker 4 (20:46):
To me, Gary Omen was the first actor I've ever
seen make the performance better in Ado.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
I heard that. I heard that about him, and I
also heard that about al Pacino Loves.

Speaker 4 (20:54):
It didn't one hundred percent of Scarface was looped. One
hundred percent of the dialogue and scar Face was a
d R because he couldn't nail the accent, and some
say never did, but we love it on the set.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Wow, I love how much you love your craft.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
I mean I love it.

Speaker 4 (21:11):
You become such a personality. You know, your personality is
aclipsing you as an actor. And that's saying a lot,
because you're a fucking vet.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
It's a lot, you know.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
I was watching yesterday, and again I don't want to
get sidetracked. I was watching because I just signed up
for the Criterion Collection app.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
The digital one.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because remember when it was laser disc.
I know, because I remember when I had the Minuce.
Let you know, it was like everything, you know.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
It was loved that. I love smelling them.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
And we go to Virgin on Sunset. I mean, I'd
be in there, You'd see everybody in there.

Speaker 4 (21:42):
Virgin was the one on Sunset, was the one that
was it, That was the one.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
But I was watching Yesterday Dog Day Afternoon, and I
was just kind of sometimes I put on movies almost
as background music, like I watch a scene, but I
was bugging off of that whole movie, and I was
bugging off of app and I was bugging off of
like I was watching and his performance is so kinetic
and so frenetic, and I was like, I need to

(22:07):
ask him, and I wonder if he was able to
remember because it's so long ago for us, we're still
you know, and obviously he knows the but I was like,
because it was so alive, and at that time, acting
was just coming out of the rigid, you know, and
and Marlin and James Dean, they were, you know, in
Denier Row and James con they were sort of changing acting,

(22:28):
and I was like, what was going on in al
Pacino and Sydney Lamett that they were like, we want
to go for this because that's like a documentary performance.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
His performance is a dog day ol in Dog Day. Yeah,
that's amazing. It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
It's such an unusual movie to the premise of it.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
The whole thing and the transsexual and like, but the
whole thing. I was fucking off it again, and I've
bugged off it for years.

Speaker 4 (22:53):
How about the same guy that's playing that mousey character
or Cirproco. I think al did something I've never seen before,
and he doesn't get credit for it because of the
huah and the chewing the gum now and all that, right,
is how's that mousey guy and dog Day, Tony Montana?

(23:14):
The way Scarface moves, the way he talks when he
gets out of that car and puts the gun in
the back of us when he's going into the.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
Motel, like, just everything about me, Like, how is that?

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Michael Corleone and Michael Colinone is super still, you know,
he's very I.

Speaker 4 (23:30):
Don't think I gotta be real again. Let's jump to
Daniel day Lewis, who is one of the greatest actors
of the past century. Right, I'm talking about one hundred years,
not just this century. Right, I've never seen Daniel make
you know, From Michael Coleone to Tony Montana, that guy's
some next that's just next level shit with alb was

(23:52):
the movement you know a lot of these actors, I
feel like.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
And where was the inspiration coming from? Where was that
coming from? Just to like this is what I'm going
to do with acting? Do you know what I'm saying?
It was like this wasn't theater.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
This is accomplishable on screen coming out of the wooden
you know, like this is like yo, they're bringing like
a whole new language to.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
I don't think Betty Davis gets enough credit either, you know,
I don't think Betty Davis gets enough credit. We're talking
about the we give brand to a lot of credit,
but when you watch Betty Davis's career arc as an
actress and her subtlety in the way she she changed
the game, she doesn't get enough credit.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
I don't feel.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
When you're working with actors and they get stuck or
it's not the sound that you want, or they're not
hitting it, how do you move them?

Speaker 2 (24:58):
Direct them?

Speaker 1 (24:59):
U You talk about Jedi mind tricks, you know, you know,
for me, it could be simple as go faster.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
All right, I'll go faster or go slower.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Okay, I'll go because you know, like a lot of
people that have never acted, we think directors are almost
like like I've never had some sort of grandiose directing
where it's like this introspective therapy thing.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
You know. I was listening to William freaking.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
He was talking about working with Tommy Lee Jones versus
Benicio adultro Wo. Benicio in real life is out to
lunch in the best way, and you know, as an actor,
he was saying, he's doing this and he's gotten these,
he's written biographies about the thing, and Tommie Jones is
is coming on the set and he's just boom bobo.
And it's similar to what you're saying about Gary Oldman
versus Denzel. But when you're working with an actor that's

(25:46):
stuck and it's not getting what do you try to
do and how do you try to do it?

Speaker 3 (25:51):
That's a great question, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (25:53):
What do you Allen says like that too, go faster,
go slower, or that's anything but.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
What she just did.

Speaker 4 (26:00):
Yeah, I'm by nature super empathic, so I can feel
usually what's going on. And you know, it's interesting, you
know this, Michael, Sometimes it's just the word you're like,
take that word out or take that sentence out. You're
getting hung up on that. Or I'll just come and
touch them, you know, or you know, I go, hey,

(26:22):
let's go over here, we'll go have some One time,
I took an actress who shall rename nameless for a
walk around a big New York City block, like, and
halfway through she got nervous, like, why aren't we walking
off set?

Speaker 2 (26:35):
What are we doing?

Speaker 3 (26:36):
I can just tell her nerves where, you know, like
she just needed a hot walk.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
You know.

Speaker 4 (26:41):
Other times I've taken actors into the trailer and in
the case of Debt Presidence, that just playing Isaac Hayes
track or something just to catch this vibe right here.
So you know, it's like anything. Everyone is so different.
And I want to be clear, this is not a comparison,
but it's gonna seem like a comparison. When we did
American Pimp, there was the documentary about pimps, which I

(27:04):
didn't mention. There was this discussion because there was this
whole thing that TIMPs can turn out any girl, and
your pimp pant is like this on each girl. And
when you talk to these pimps, and they were honest.
The quote is you got a pimp on each bitch accordingly.
I mean, one may like to go to fucking Coney
Island and ice cream cones, and the other bitch you
gotta take the movie theater, and you know, the other

(27:26):
one you just take. She likes to go and walks
in the park and you know, get them a little
daffy duck thing with the pedals on it, you know.
And I'm like, who would ever thought that they are
this nuanced? Because each girl is a different animal. But
movies and culture would have us believe that those guys
are just doing this and it's like writing, acting, producing, directing.

(27:50):
Everyone's a different animal. Every athlete has a different cocktail.
When Tiger Wood's wife ran them down with the golf
club and car hit the tree, and she insisted he
get into sex rehab and he had to stop taking
his Viking in and stop drinking his vodka, what happened
to his game?

Speaker 3 (28:10):
Everyone has a cocktail list.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
When he when he stopped fucking, when he stopped sucking the.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Wait staff with apple BEEAs things went awrye he.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
Needed those white women viking in in vodka.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Let's let's open up the red lobsters and let Tiger
get back to where I mean, cut the bullshit.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
How about how about when Tiger became like not the
black trick, but the Asian trick.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
When when you know, we all have tricks.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
There's the white trick, the Black trick, the Asian trick,
the Latin trick, like all different types of tricking. When
the girl released the voicemail, he's like, Hello, this is Tiger.
My wife's got my phone. Can you not call anymore?
I'm like, dude, dude, when you breathe, she knows who
it is. Okay, just say don't say anything, Just get

(28:56):
rid of the phone.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
I'm gonna get in trouble with Tiger.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Now.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Do you keep in touch with any of the pimps
that you had in the documentary?

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Was her name again, American Pimp? Do you keep in.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
Contact with any of the pimps that you guys portrayed
in American Pimp.

Speaker 4 (29:16):
Because most of them moved to Vegas and it used
to be called carpet pimping, the Vegas pimping.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
I don't even know.

Speaker 4 (29:22):
The Internet did the same thing the pimping that it
did to the record business completely At the same time,
it happened to record business, and my dear friend Kenny
Red just passed away. The one with my mouth was
loaded like a gun. I can't even do it. Kenny
Red just passed away less than a year ago, and

(29:43):
he was really my lifeline to all that. I talked
to Gangster Brown all the time, the Vine Brown's pimp.
He really wasn't in the documentary, he was around the documentary.
So yeah, I keep in touch with those guys. You know,
you do documentaries. You know this too. They it becomes
your family. You've adopted into a family now, you know.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
All right?

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Dear Mama five parts, ridiculously, so sick, so good. You
mentioned in the defiant ones when we're just talking you
mentioned the Arnold documentary. I noticed on the credits of
Dear Mama, and you said it in regards to producing
and writing the Arnold Schwarzenegger documentary.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
What does that mean? Writing a documentary? What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Yeah, I'm glad you asked them.

Speaker 4 (30:25):
You go right to the heart of what it really
is like, because for so long there wasn't a credit
in documentary for writing. Right, what it means is like,
what is the theme and what are the sub themes sometimes,
as I say, are more important than the theme. And
when I'm interviewed with Michael Rapport, I talk to you
before I get on set, and I start telling you

(30:47):
kind of what I'm after, and I go, I'm after
this thing are you familiar with? For instance, in Defiant
ones before Snoops interview, I'm in a kitchen with Snoop
at the Chateau Marmant and the suite we're in, I
said you, this is when the beach deal is still fresh,
the cripwalk thing, and what happened?

Speaker 2 (31:05):
I go, you know what happened? Though?

Speaker 4 (31:07):
New Bridy goes what I go? When he did that,
they shaved three hundred thousand dollars off the three hundred
million dollars I'm sorry, three hundred million dollars off the deal.
It was a three point three million dollar deal.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Really wow? Wow? Okay.

Speaker 4 (31:21):
Then when we get to the set, you know, he
has that famous moment He's like, hello, this is Apple, Yeah, nigga, Yeah,
save a few million off the deal.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:30):
And so you work with talent to see if they're
gonna if they're gonna adopt some of the That was
a pretty shallow example of like writing where you're like,
we need this moment, we need this thing. Let's talk
about this way. If I'm interviewing you too, you know,
I'll do a clinical interview and then I'll see I
go oh, there's something in there. I'll go back, I'll
pull that out and go all right, say that again.

(31:51):
But I need you to I need to hear this
word and this word you're not say. You got to
be more specific, right, So you start directing and writing
about like the beats of the story because my head's
like an avid or pro tools, whatever the fuck you
want to say. And more importantly though, it's when you
watch Dear Mama, you see a structure that's complexed. You

(32:13):
see multi layers and timelines, and you're like, all right,
what narratives are we and what needs to go away?
So it's a you're putting so many index cards with
each story, with you know, outlines to you know, a
B C are way beforehand and in the archive of
the dialogue editing. My my partner, the lead editor and

(32:33):
my co writer, lass aarve a finished Gentleman the dialogue editing,
Doug praised to do this too, and the fine ones
like if you say a whole paragraph, how they finess
words out of your mouth and finesse ums and butts
into your mouth. Rearrange sentences so they're smoother, rearrange paragraphs

(32:54):
so they sing and have a melody, and the narrative
has no speed bumps. So it's all writing because you're
at the end of the day. To me, the thing
about writing is like, what am I saying? What is
my point of view? What is my thesis here? And
there's a moment in the middle of part four towards

(33:14):
the end of Dear Mama, where you see Tupac's drama
teacher Donald Hickins talking about him performing that Starry Night
by Dom McClain. But it's just a movement piece Tupac's
doing in class. And then you see the life of
the whole documentary forward and then you see Tupac and
slow motion you're still hearing and shock G's talking about

(33:36):
this is what you want out of the man. You
guys want to see a real nigga watch this, and
then it goes to hit him up. He had to
let brothers know I'm with you now I understand.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
Is this what I have to do to get you
all attention? What you try to say to me, now
when you listen to him, how.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
You suffered for your sanity, how you tried to set
them free.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
They would not listen, and they did not know.

Speaker 5 (34:09):
Perhaps they'll listening now, y'all like real niggas, that's what
a man is, all right, Watch.

Speaker 4 (34:18):
This So you see the central thesis and dear Mama
in a nine minute real and it's heavily written.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Beforehand, yes, and through the process and.

Speaker 4 (34:32):
Yeah, when you yeah, and then you get a great
editor like like Lass and then who's an artist? And
then we've talked about this for years. We had the
Don McClain and to hit him up kind of and
it was just a good showtime documentary version of it,
as I call it. I always say, is this the
showtime documentary version of it? Is this the HBO documentary

(34:55):
version of it? Or is it transcended into like the cinematic.
So we had a showtime version of it for many
months and then you know, he cut a wild hair
up his ass and went in one day and the
one that's in the movie right now, which is my
favorite nine minutes in the movie. But again, it's a
lot of writing, it's a lot of discussing the way
we talk, the way we're talking right now. You're doing

(35:16):
that constantly, so you're honing it, honing it in the
case of Arnold, and I shut the fuck up.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
No, no, you could please go ahead.

Speaker 4 (35:22):
I love all that, and I love this with like
legendary subjects too. Towards the end of the documentary, I go, Arnold, listen,
you have such a rich life. I actually told him.
I say, I know this thing with the housekeeper and
your son, it's tough, but it actually makes your story
richer because if without it, it's just German white man.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
When when when.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
We know Arnold, we would all come out yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:45):
And but you know, like it's like one of Muhammad
Ali got knocked out by Joe Frasier knocked down, knockdown.
I'm sorry, come on, that is down. That was sacrilegious
of me. Knockdown, knockdown and got up.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
And got up.

Speaker 4 (36:01):
But that's when America started connecting to Muhammad Ali. People
think that we always loved him. We didn't always love
him as Americans.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Right.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
My point is, I said, Arnold the last act of
this documentary, you're uniquely positioned to speak to preserving democracy
here and abroad because.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Of what you were born into.

Speaker 4 (36:24):
Right, And he never really talked about this before the
losing side of World War Two, these broken men coming back, abusers, alcoholics.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
They were with the Nazis, right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:34):
And his speeches he makes to the Charlottesvield like he
was doing this, He goes on camera, talks directly to
him about being on the losing side of that ideology.
His January sixth speech to those rioters, when he goes
and vicious Auschwitz and does all these things with the
what's the museum in La Los Angeles?

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Sorry, the Holocaust Museum.

Speaker 4 (36:54):
Yeah, But my point is is that I said, let's
focus the last act about fighting for preserving democracy. We
don't need to mention Trump. He's a symptom of something. Right,
Let's talk about your climate activism. And then, you know,
because he's seventy five, he's losing friends and the preciousness
of life and what love means. Right, So instead of like,
there's so many things we could focus on, we start

(37:16):
focusing on this guy and we start dialogue again. So
now again you're you're writing the truth. You're writing now
because you're like the last ten minutes of this documentary
needs to be about preserving democracy here and abroad, period.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
And now that I'm asking that question, the reason why
I'm because because so on sophisticated the way I talk
about it.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
No, no, you're you're doing it very very basic way, and
unsophisticated is good because like most people are not film bakers.
So I want to make it under like plain, like water,
like water, because if you're doing a documentary in more
real time, verite, like when I was doing the Tribalilm,
I was like, because when I see right I'm writing,
I'm like, fuck it.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Maybe if I wrote it wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Have been as hard, but I felt like because in
real if you're doing something in real time, you can't
write it.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
It sort of takes you.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
But you were writing it because you were editing what
you had and you were listening to your gut and
you had a point of view and your point of
view to me.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
But my point of view went left once I got.

Speaker 4 (38:17):
Yeah with that, and again it always changes it only
but you jumped on the horse of that dynamic of
those two guys, Yes, and you could have gone a
different direction. Yeah, And you got really in the inner
workings of that relationship, and you rode that horse to
end and then you made decisions.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
I'm cutting this out. I'm leaving this in.

Speaker 4 (38:36):
I'm highlighting this thing when Q Tip talks about that,
and when my man's talking about his diabetes, I'm not
get rid of that part. Put this part that's writing.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
I got you.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
How did the film come about? How did Dear Mama
come about? Did they approach you? Who approached you? How
long had it been an idea before you started making
the film?

Speaker 4 (38:58):
There was another Pristine just filmmaker doing a feature version
doc on Tupac and had started down the road with
the estate and the family, and for some reason or another,
after a year, that didn't work out. And then I
got called because I know a lot of the record
label there. Steve Berman from the label, who I go
way back with, obviously Jimmy, but Jimmy wasn't there.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
At the time.

Speaker 4 (39:18):
Peter Paternal, who's the Tupaca state attorney as well as
doctor Dre's attorney and Metallica's attorney.

Speaker 3 (39:22):
So I know these people.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
Peter Paternal signed the first check from my first music
video that I met Tupac on for Raw Fusion. When
he used to run Hollywood Records in Hollywood basic Ed Disney,
he was the president, Peter Paternal So I got called
from Peter. He's like, can you meet the Tupaca state.
Who's the Tom Wally?

Speaker 2 (39:40):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (39:40):
I know Tom Wally.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
He's the one that called me when Tupac wanted us
to do his music videos because Tom Wally was the
president of Interscope. So I went and met with him
and they it was like on a Wednesday. And I
didn't want to do it because I was on this
whole Marvin Gaye feature film path and I didn't see
doing a documentary. I don't think I want to do

(40:01):
it for a bunch of reasons, like the Fine Ones
almost killed me. I don't know if I want to
get into like me and Tupac at it all. And
I said, but give me three days to think about it.
And I called him back Friday and I said, I'll
do it under one condition, if we can do it
multiple parts, and it'd be as much about a Fannie
Shakur as it is about Tupac.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
And they said done.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
And how much did you know about a Fanny's story?
Because you know, I was thinking again when I was
going to interview you we heard Tupac talk about his mom.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
You know, I don't remember how much we learned after
he passed. We heard. You know, I remember growing up
in New York.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
You know, this guy's cousin is in the Black Panthers,
and it was just sort of vague. You couldn't look
things up the way we could look things up now
as a kid, especially a white kid. But you know,
I go to school with this and you're like, oh,
his father was in the Black Panthers, and then you know,
and then you hear Tupaca's mom was like what did
that mean?

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Because her story on it so on.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
I mean, honestly, like I said from the beginning, it's
as much as inn a Fenni documentary, because you really explained,
like how smart, strong, resilient, flawed and brilliant of Fannie is.
How much did you really know about her life before
you started making the film. The details of taking on

(41:19):
the court. You know, Tupac will talk about, you know,
my mom went to court and you know, got the
Black Pants represented herself right while I was in her belly,
and you'd.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Be like, is this really true? Is this? And then
you're like, yo, in this documentary you really see it.
That's right detailed. I mean it sounds so fantastical. It
sounds like yo, really you know, like okay.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
I was cultivated in prison?

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, Like was it like was it
a traffic ticket? And like no, this wasn't no traffic ticket. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:47):
She was facing three hundred and sixty years in prison
in a famous case called the Panther twenty one trial
with twenty some other of her comrades. They were accused
of plotting to blow up sites and department stores and
the what's the zoo or were there the botanical guards
I'm sorry, the Bronx potanical guards. Yeah, and they were

(42:08):
accused of plotting to blow up like I don't know
how many different eight locations something like that. And she
represented herself. Now, what I knew before I did this
documentary was what we all knew. I knew the song
Dear Mama. I knew she struggled with addiction and overcame it.
And I knew she was a former panther.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
That was it.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
That's vague, right, that's it when you talk about like
former panther.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
That's it.

Speaker 4 (42:33):
I mean when you watch the film, you see how
ahead of her time, she was crazily wow, and she
should be on the mount rushmore of civil rights leaders,
just the loan by virtue of just how she represented
herself and got them off here in Manhattan in the
same courthouse that Tupac was tried in for the assault case.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
Which is insane.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
And that cut, you know that part of the film,
You're just like, there's so many goosebumps moms in the film.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
As a viewer, how about that one.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
I never talked about it much.

Speaker 4 (43:04):
The way the FBI turned the East Coast faction of
the Panthers against the West Coast and the West Coast
and had them in fighting, and it was like hip
hop crazy. It was the same exact thing going on
with the Panthers, which, if you think about it, Michael,
the Panthers really were hip hop, and you look at
their attitude or swagger, the way they dressed, the way
they moved, all of it was a precursor to hip hop.

(43:29):
And you look at the way the FEDS worked them
like that. Now, people might say it's conspiracy theory. People
might have their own feelings about what happened with rap
in the East Coast West Coast thing. I think the
media had more to do with that than any FEDS,
But who knows, who knows?

Speaker 2 (43:47):
I mean, yeah, it's true.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
I just think that was such a just a couple
of egos that got way out of hand.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
When I look at it, I think that's what I think.

Speaker 4 (43:56):
You know what, The people got to remember this, and
you remember this because you were living in real time.
We were living in real time when Cube left. God
blessed Cube. That just saw him in a car with
Tucker Carlson. Another we could go on, the world is
just upside down right now? Did you see that video
of him in Tucker Carlson? I like it though it worlded.

(44:18):
We got to get to that because I want to
know why you like it. But Cube left in wa
no Vassiline, one hundred miles of running. Everyone kind of
felt at the time. No one talked about it. It
was WWF. It felt real. But you also know no
one had been killed. There were some scuffles with you

(44:40):
know Entourage's cut to when hit him up came out.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
He knew it.

Speaker 4 (44:47):
There's something about this because the power of that kid,
the power of Tupac. It was I remember Jimmy I
being playing me the track before it came out, I
go him and Tupac and or SUGD.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Would be dead in less than six months. And he
was like, why you say that?

Speaker 4 (45:02):
And it wasn't the words, it was the energy, the
power of how he did it, particularly the outfro I said.
And see, people forget we hadn't lost any stars to
gang violence or shooting, so it wasn't a reality to
us until it happened.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
And we're talking about star. I mean, this was a
everybody knows that.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
These guys, these guys and I don't want to because
I'm not gonna name names. I'll get in trouble with
other iconic, legendary gazillionaire rappers right now. But when you
shoot the two A plus students in the class, the
C minus student starts to rise to the time right
and the C minus student is a working motherfucker and

(45:47):
really got great.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
Podcast, the archival footage, the music, the b roll, the

(46:13):
aside from all the interviews you shot. Did they give
you access to everything because that stuff costs money? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah? Did you?

Speaker 1 (46:19):
Was that one of your precursors to do the film,
because when you did The Defiant Ones, there again there's
goosebump moments in that like, I'm.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
Like, what the fuck is going on?

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Even like I'm not even a Bruce Bringsteen fan or
Tom Petty fan, but when there's footage of them in
the studio, I'm like, this is crazy. Yeah, you know,
And the the NWA footage in the studio, I was like,
this is what is happening here?

Speaker 2 (46:42):
So was that?

Speaker 1 (46:43):
Is that one of your precursors to doing a documentary
of this size, Like I need access to everything clear beforehand.

Speaker 4 (46:49):
Absolutely with Tupac too, the most important thing was getting
access to the writings, you know, whether it's the poetry,
the lyrics, whatever, getting access to the a cappella, which
the estate was very sensitive about and they they would
fight every yard of that anytime I wanted to pull
the acapellas. To their credit, they were like, what are
you doing if this gets out? You know some DJ

(47:12):
you know they're very precious about and they didn't quite
understand what I was doing at first. I'm like, we
gotta take him raw and take Atticus and Claudia and Leo,
my composer's compositions, and bring him to Grandma. I always say,
we need to make sure Grandma understands Tupac and we
got these beats behind it. No one's gonna understand it,

(47:34):
and it's not going to be as intimate and emotional move.

Speaker 6 (47:36):
It's a copulated as that. It's pretty closer to and
break an early death.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Now it's yester life.

Speaker 6 (47:41):
There was no mercy on the streets. I couldn't rest.
I'm barely standing about to go to pieces streaming piece,
and so my soul was deleted.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
I couldn't see it.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
I had a mind full of Denon's trying to break street.

Speaker 6 (47:51):
They played it scenes and they had fuck in the flame.
It's something I bring like a match, such a dirty game,
no memory. It's just to miss a ready in the picture,
and it means killing me and my sake. Well, I's
a vibe to the moon and to see the sun.
Please don't forgive me for my sins, because hear I come.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
So we had to excavate all those and in that journey, Michael,
we found you see in the opening ten minutes him
mumbling between dear Mama versus, because this is he's mumbling
a whole other verse that's actually not in the song.

Speaker 5 (48:25):
Dear Mama, Free you from your cage full of rage,
because this is what the good days. And even though
your loane man, you're more than the mother, you're my
home man, it's no way I could play your back.
My plan is to show you what you don't understand.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Dear Mama.

Speaker 4 (48:43):
I left it in there and the opening credit sequence,
yes of it right, So you find other moments that's
him because he's shot so sort of in the dark
like him. Yeah, I was like, that's literally him. I
cheated the moment. He's not singing dear Mama there, but
I cheated it, and he goes and you left you
in your case full of rage, and then then you
molding my mama, you're my home and he's singing, he's

(49:05):
doing a whole other verse that is was muted on
the track. So we discovered things like that. There was
another thing you mentioned, archival as you've seen in the
last five to eight years, archival as scene work. Archival
as scene work had never really been done.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Explain what you mean by that, n WA.

Speaker 4 (49:26):
In the studio making Fuck the Police, we discovered that
footage a gentleman by the name of Steve Janno who
used to do the swap met Asian gentleman who died
while I was making the Fine Ones. His wife Dre
was just getting ready to talk to him. We found
this treasure trove of footage like halfway through the process.

(49:50):
So you see in Defiant Ones they're trying to get easy.
You've seen it famously in the movie Straight at Comptent,
but we actually have the scene of him trying to
get easy to rap by that time. It's a fuck
the police, I believe. And you see ice Cube, you
see DC and you see them there doing the skit opening,
fuck the police. Judge j residing in the case of

(50:13):
n W A versus the police department, they got the
footage of it.

Speaker 6 (50:16):
Free resigning in the case of NWA versus the police department,
prosecuting attorney's all mc fan, ice Cube and easy.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
Motherfucking e wait a minute, hold it, hold it holder.

Speaker 6 (50:28):
In the court, ice Cube, take the motherfucking stand this
sweat to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
So health your black ass, the god damn right. We
want you tell everybody what the fuck you gotta say.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
So you you got to learn the massage, like into it,
drop the audience off into it, and cut it as
an actual three minute scene. And when you have like
we're talking about Tom Petty, there was not only that
Tom Petty. There was that take where Jimmy was working
with Stevie Nicks on her album and she was clearly
a little out of it and they were having some

(51:01):
difficulties in her and Jimmy getting a spat and Jimmy's
doing his little s fing galley thing with her. That's
a scene, yeah, you know, So you start to isolate
these archival bits and you go, all right, this is
a two minute scene. And what we learned is it's
way more powerful sometimes than an actual film because it's real, yo.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
I mean, and also we know the songs.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
We know this, and when you're hearing them, like you know,
working me, it's just you're just like I call them
for me as a director, but also as if you
were goosebump moments.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Yeah, goosebump moments. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
So when you have I mean, we've there's been great
documentaries about Tupac. There's been some really really strong documentaries
about Tupac. When you're watching the archival footage and this
making of footage and you're getting the a cappellas and
the outtakes. What do you remember as one of your
first goosebump moments as a director, We're like, oh shit,

(52:00):
I didn't see this.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
I didn't know this existed.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Like I'm hearing like a bad take of dear mom
or I'm hearing a bad take of a trapped you know,
like him screwing up when he's doing Brendan's Got a Baby.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Do you remember when you were like, what the fuck?

Speaker 4 (52:14):
Like the one that stood out the most, and this
is a trip of Tupac and a Fannie Shakur. There's
probably five photos that exist of the two of them together,
and most of them are owned by a woman that's
upset with the family in the state and has history
with Tupaca and Afani, so we couldn't get most of them. Damn,

(52:34):
that's go easy, so that there's like five photos of
the two of them together, and.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
Explain as a filmmaker how frustrating that is, because it
becomes the worst.

Speaker 4 (52:42):
It's the worst when you left with two barely of
the two of them. Because I don't like to repeat,
keep coming back to the same photos like a cheap
of VH one documentary, right, sorry VH one.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
No, but I know I got you, So check this out.

Speaker 4 (52:56):
The thing I do that I discovered them defining ones
is and it's the way I discovered what I sense
of coin the empathy cut, which is everyone's ripping off now,
which is the subject sitting there listening to the other subject,
and you're seeing the uncomfortable moments in between the moments. Right,
every docum I've seen, fucking Holocaust documentaries and PBS using
this technique. Now it's just gotten out a hand, right.

(53:18):
But The Fine Ones was the first documentary to decant.
As I say, because I discovered this, bear with me,
because I'm going through the archival. I discovered this when
I went to up to Bruce Springsteen's house. I said,
how am I going to these legends they don't give
a fuck about me? How am I going to find
a human being? So I would roll cameras before they
were miked up. This chair would be empty, and then

(53:41):
you would see him come in. I didn't know, I
didn't know the times I used some of that stuff,
but I would use the moments in between. You know,
when Bruce was doing this and he seems like he's
listening to Landau or Jimmy and whatever. We start developing
this thing called an empathy cut. I also would whatever
iconic music video, I would go into the raw footage

(54:01):
and go to the left of the iconic moment or
to the right of the iconic moment where the artists
in that rock star suit, you know, that thing that
we love, and you go, what is that the moment
before the You know, like it's surreal because you've never
seen these moments before. The goosebump moment for me was
when I discovered footage from the I Get Around video
and they were at lunch having a barbecue. Tupac had

(54:24):
his shirt off, he's eating barbecue, and there's a fanny
laid right next to him and they're just chilling together.
And sixteen millimeter it was all of eight seconds, but
in the film it feels like a lifetime the way
we use it, because there's no moving footage of the
two of them together. There was no none that existed,

(54:45):
So you go and do these Unfortunately, like I was
trying to always find the outtakes of California Love so
I can do raw. I liked in these documentaries, you go,
all right, that one shot at Tupac we love. I
didn't like the way Tupac was lit in California Love
because it came from under and he looked a little weird. Sorry, Hype,
you're the dopest at music videos. But the dopest no one,

(55:07):
not even Hype Williams. No one had the outtakes of
California Love. I had the outtakes of Brenda's Got a
Baby clearly, which I've been directed, which I directed, We've brother,
me and my brother, my brother and I And then
I had the outtakes of Trapped. So you saw that
in there, and I think that's really talking about goosebump moments.

Speaker 3 (55:26):
Again.

Speaker 4 (55:27):
When you have like iconic people doing iconic imagine doing
a documentary about Scarface and finding the outtakes of the
Chainsaw murdercy, that fucks you up.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
When you see shit like that, you know, fucks you up.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
I know you're not glorifying it because I've watched the
interviews while you were doing press the first round for
Dear Mama. Remind people of your relationship with Tupac from
the inception. Just give context of your relationship with Tupac.
Going back to the Dear Mama, the trap, the Brenda's
Got a Baby video, just to give context of it.

Speaker 4 (56:03):
We met Tupac. We were in San Francisco on our
first music video. It was a group called Raw Fusion,
which is a spin off group of Digital Underground Money
Bee the rapper and DJ Fuse right, the white Yeah
who played the cop on all the music videos. We
were just ass a cop And when we went to
it wasn't a waffle house, was like an ihop. It

(56:25):
was all of Digital Underground shock g. Everyone was there
and there was this kid at the end of the
table that was snapping on everybody and one of the funniest,
most charismatic.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
People I'd seen in a long time.

Speaker 4 (56:36):
And it was a young Tupac pre Tupocalypse Now is
debut album, which was in the can. I just didn't
know that that film Juice was in the can. I
just didn't know that. So he's an unknown person at
that table. The guys know he's got an album coming out.
The guys know, but they don't know what Juice is
or isn't. And I remember just being taken with him,

(56:58):
and I remember going to the restroom and him coming
and shortly after and saying that he saw our short films,
these little super a films we did. That's how we
got our first music video. Goes, I'm gonna have you
guys direct all my first music videos. I'm like, I
was already enamor with him, but I didn't believe them.
And the next day was the shoot. Me and my
brother were so excited we didn't sleep that night and

(57:19):
we you know, back then, you would do little scenes
before the music video, right, so you could show that
you're a real director, right, And I kept going, where's
Tupac worre's Tupac? I waited for Tupac was like thirty
minutes late, and I put him in the middle of
the scene and then we rolled camras. So I knew
there was something going on with this guy for me
to wait on our first music video for him to
come and put him in the scene when he was

(57:41):
not a celebrity at the time. And sure enough, Tom
Wally of Inner Scope Records two weeks later calls us
and says, can I tety We weren't known as the
Hughes brothers, like the Hughes twins. Guys, Yeah, Tupac, can
you come in? Like you could tell? They were like,
we're nineteen, go now Tupac's nineteen You guys are children exactly,

(58:04):
We're kids. And then when you cut to them, Mike go,
what happened with us in Tupac? When you cut to
I don't want to jump too far ahead. I got
to remind people a generation before, you're lucky. If you're
a young Black male and you're going to college, let
alone record deal, movie deal, getting famous and the egos

(58:26):
that come with that. In what transpired was because because
we were all so young, but we became quick friends
we did. I would pick them up, me and my
brother pick them up from the Burdbank Airport. It felt
like the better part of a year. It probably was less,
if you know, when you're young, it felt like three years.
We were really close, and we did his first music video, Trapped.

(58:48):
We did his second music video, Brenda's Got a Baby,
which is like the crown jewel for all of us.
And then by the time we got to My Homies Call,
we were having problems in a relationship. It was his idea,
he kind of directed it, but our name was on
it and he had agreed because New Line Cinema for
our first feature film, Menace, Society says, will green light

(59:09):
your film if you get a platinum recording artist. He
wasn't platinum at the time, but he was big because
Juice had come out now, and he agreed to come
on for a small role to help the film get made.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
There's so much a lot in it. A lot, it's
a lot. It's a lot. You say something in the film.
You say something because you wound up sort of interviewing
yourself or being interviewed by I can't remember the guy who.

Speaker 3 (59:35):
Sorted atertering Gregory, his manager.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
But you talked about when you were shooting Brenda's got
a baby in the long lens, and the talk about
what you saw that made him special.

Speaker 3 (59:47):
You know, it's your money man.

Speaker 4 (59:50):
It's like having worked with him for a few months
already at that point Juice had come out, I believe,
yet at that point now by Tom at the Prince
of Baby, and there was a moment where he's sitting
down with a little baby girl and the camera was
up here and looking down at him, and I remember

(01:00:10):
I went into the eyepiece and mind you, I've known
him for a few months now, and I went, oh shit,
I just jumped back off the eyepiece because I finally
saw like this thing, this unquantifiable thing that's called being
a rock star or a movie star. It's an aura,
it's structure, it's your eye. Who knows what the fuck

(01:00:32):
that thing is?

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
But I felt it then and that's when later on
the street we started doing this. The camera was just
swimming over his features and doing weird op twose things,
and I remember in the edit, Tupac was like, what
is that? Cut that out?

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
Guys, like why are you doing that?

Speaker 4 (01:00:49):
And we turned it at our shitty version of that's
art Tupac, you know, and somehow he let us keep
it in because he was so powerful that you could
just linger on his eye or on his lip, or
on his neck or whatever it was. But I didn't
know it until we shot that black and white music video,
how powerful and like Denzel. I don't believe I ever

(01:01:10):
had to tell Tupac anything except for like, just favor
over here a little bit more. And I doubt I
had to say that, because he's if you see him
in that video, you see him in any video. And
I think he came with this, there's three cameras here.
He's acutely aware of even then, even then, like advanced

(01:01:32):
in that way because I remember when we work with
hip hop artists, most of them didn't understand what actors understand.

Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
To be honest with you, I didn't really start paying
attention or understand the camera for a while. And that's
kind because I was like, I don't care about the camera.
You know, you could have you know, it's just good.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
It's a good.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Yeah, my shit, that's a great. It's the sea word,
it's charisma. It's an intangible thing.

Speaker 4 (01:01:56):
It's why someone asked me yesterday, go, why are we
still talking about this guy? I said, Mike Tyson says it.
He says, I've been around all around the world. He
goes DNA, the children's soldiers in Africa, what was tupac
l like ten year old with machine guns? They came
and speak English. They feel him, They feel him.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
That's what made him the best. That's what Gat and
you were talking about. Can you feel me? You know
what you like?

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
You know you could feel him. That was that was
his thing. You know, he inspired me so much as
an actor because even his music and his acting. But
you know, because it was like that, you know, he
wasn't you know, who know what he would have grown into.
But he wasn't the most technical actor during his till

(01:02:43):
twenty five, but you could feel him like he didn't
have like a proper New York accent as Bishop and Juice.
But it didn't matter.

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
It didn't matter, and we got robbed of probably the
career that would have really defined him, which was as
a great actor hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
When we talk about we talk about Pacino. When I
saw him in Juice, I was bucking off of him
because I was like.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
Yo, this is to me. It reminded me of Johnny
Boy and Mean Streets. Oh wow, de Niro.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
You know, it's like he was just this unhinged, raw, emotional, unpredictable.
And when you see de Niro in that first scene
talking to Harvey Kaititel in Mean Streets and he's talking, oh,
the bankers and broke, there's almost I don't know if
this is true, but you almost see Harvey Kattell going
like what the fuck, like like.

Speaker 4 (01:03:33):
That's right, He's you know, you're tuning into something that's
almost hard to harness that level of.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
And in that scene, you know, Omar, he's looking who knows,
but you almost see cutaways of old more Apps going
like yo, like this dude's playing at different speech.

Speaker 4 (01:03:51):
Straight up, you know, almost like I'm an actor, you know,
like he's doing his job.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
But this is small shit, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:04:01):
You know, Tupuc even broke a rule and it's still
worked in the scene at the locker room, I mean
at the locker I'm sorry, not the locker room. He
broke a rule. And I hate when bad guys do this.
I hate when bad guys are aware that they're crazy,
because real bad guys are not aware that they're crazy.
And he actually says the line, what's the line I'm crazy? No,

(01:04:22):
because you told me I was crazy, and you know
what I am, and I don't give a fuck, right
like he writing wise a cardinal sin was broken, right then?
You don't write a guy to say that. But he
pulled it off one hundred percent. He tried one hundred percent. Wow,

(01:04:43):
one hundred And I was a young actor at the time,
and you know, I was just like, yo, this dude.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
And I was a fan of his music and I was,
you know, when I come around, get around. But when
he did Juice, I was like, Yo, this is this
is nuts. This performance is nuts. And this is when
I'm a young actor, you know, I'm salvating off of
other because I was like, this is crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:05:01):
By the way, let's talk about this. And there's some
friends I can bring up right now and name names.
But of young black actors at the.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Time, Lorenz killed it, Yeah, no doubt.

Speaker 4 (01:05:13):
But if Tupac were in minutes like he was supposed
to be, it would have thrown the access off one.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
Hundred, especially for the character that he was going to be,
which is the Muslim character. Right, But Lorenz had that,
you know, in Menace, You're like, what's happening here?

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
No doubt in my opinion. Thirty years later, is it
Lorenzo is still type cast?

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
Yeah? Yeah, he never you know, it's Lorenz's.

Speaker 1 (01:05:37):
We want to see him be like, he's got the looks,
but we're like, we want O Dog, we want killers, psychopaths, nuts.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
He's laying in wait and he's been laying in wait
for thirty years.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
I called him. He's laying in wait. He's this.

Speaker 4 (01:05:49):
It's interesting too because Lorenz, unlike Tupac, was actually a
child actor, right, and when he came into the role
of O Dog, we had already exhausted all the because
Odall was written for easy e we were really close
at the time that I developed the script, so we

(01:06:11):
were looking for a stocky, darker complexed, obviously muscly guy
to play O Dog. And so when the casting director
had exhausted two hundred people, he goes, all right, guys,
come in next week. I'm going to show you the
list of the guys I didn't want to show you.
And then comes this what I always describe as a
Disney kid. And from the word action, what you saw

(01:06:35):
in the movie is what we saw in the audition.
I go, oh, I know who this kid is. This
is hip hop. You know when you're in the mirror
doing your favorite gangster rapper, you're inhibiting it in the car,
like you know that thing you.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
Do and you're an actor.

Speaker 4 (01:06:49):
He hit that shit and it didn't feel like acting,
and he was doing the improv and it was more
dangerous because he had the boyish looks and it felt
more dangerous.

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
And then the crazy thing about Lorenz and I love Lorenz,
I love his brother. Lorenz hasn't aged at all. He
still looks like he's twenty five years old.

Speaker 3 (01:07:06):
Caroline right here now.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
Yeah, hairline went down?

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
No, nor I mean, this is black done crack He's like,
give me a little wrinkle something, because you're like fifty
years old now.

Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
I remember Lorenz Lorenzo Menace.

Speaker 4 (01:07:19):
Lorenz still used to have to go to school with
the little kid, you know, little kid in Menace. You know,
we would be into park like talking to some girls
and shit, and I remember the I don't know what
those onset people are that coming in. You have to
go to school kids, Lorenz the hours. Yeah, Lorenz, it's
time to go to school. And Lorenz pulls that Birst
size and I'm trying to hommer at home.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Growl over.

Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
He keep that school shit because all of us were
of age. He was the only one that was under eighteen.
He was seventeen.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Yeah, my god, that is crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
All right, this could be my last question. You talked
about the A cappellas you know, and we talk about
Goosebump moments as a filmmaker. Talk about Goosebump moments as
an audience member. With the music sequences in this film,
and like I said, you fired on all cylinders storytelling, visual,
you know, archival footage, but the thing that you did

(01:08:28):
with the music sequences in this film, you know where
you're taking the A cappellas of actual Tupac. You're putting
your score, You're playing around with sound addition, like in
the America's Most Wanted with the bottle clinks and the toasting.
What is your inspiration for that? Because I've never seen

(01:08:49):
that before. And the rock Kim scene where he's rhyming
this is I don't know if he's Tupac at this point.
He's in high school at this point, what is your
inspiration for removing? Like, where did you get that idea from?

Speaker 4 (01:09:03):
I just again, I'm an impath, so I just feel
things and they're not intellectual, and I go, we should
try this in a case of a young Tupac way
before he signed, He's seventeen years old doing Panther Power, right.
What's the remix of peyton Ful, the coal cut, yes,
whatever mix, the famous one that has a gazillion samples
in it, by the way, And it was in an

(01:09:26):
attempt to elevate Tupac because he was kind of elementary
at the time and not even a career. So you're like,
we got to make him feel doper than he really is.
So let's put him to the Rock Kim remix of peyton.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
Ful and I'm telling you, I'm like, oh fucking shit, and.

Speaker 4 (01:09:43):
Then you have to really and that's again my partner
Loss is really masterful at sliding and sinking and doing
this thing. Unfortunately, we could not license that track. Now
watch when I fall in love with something what happens?
Because there's two hundred samples and no one agrees about
signing the record over for film. So I had to
go take a world class DJ and reproduce the actual

(01:10:07):
PAYD in full remixing pattern.

Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
There you go.

Speaker 4 (01:10:11):
Thank you for shouting him out, love Hi, because I
didn't sleep last night. He meticulously reproduced to REDJ that track,
and the reason why I did it was they were tall. MO.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
My homeboy Tupac, he's seventeen. It's just like rock him.
He said. He's better than right, better than Rock King
right now.

Speaker 4 (01:10:30):
But in order for you to have what you refer to,
and it's literally is a goosebump moment, you gotta take
that and put it under him so the audience can
feel what his homeboy's feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Really the same is the American dream Ain't nothing but
another calculated.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
Schemes again, a block shout off the.

Speaker 4 (01:10:47):
Back in shade.

Speaker 6 (01:10:48):
He denies the the future rob Our names you cant
my history, your mystery. But now I'll see the American
dream wasn't meant for me because Lady.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
Liberty is a hipocrisy.

Speaker 6 (01:10:58):
Lots of me, probably freedom at the case quality she
never gave me.

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
That's where the inspiration came.

Speaker 4 (01:11:04):
You're like, he's actually not quite near at all rock
him at the time. But in order for you to
feel like his ascension is happening and it's this magical moment,
you gotta take this classic track, same thing with the
stripping down and using the whatever it's more like again.
I have this rule in the editing room. If Grandma
doesn't understand it, it's got to go. And there's a

(01:11:26):
thing I have in the editing room. I call it
the Wu Tang effect. Too many niggas. No one's gonna understand.
It's a very racial thing. But it comes from you know,
come from a place of me knowing because I'm biracial.
I'm like, you got nine niggas on stage. This is
going to get confusing for the average audience, let alone grandma.
And so my rule is, if Grandma doesn't understand who

(01:11:50):
everyone in Wu Tang is, we got a problem. So
it's always fidelity, Michael. I'm always not just like audio fidelity.
I'm talking about like writing fidelity, narrative fidelity, finding a
melody in the narrative that a white eighty year old
grandma in Kansas can go.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
I don't fuck with hip hop, but I feel.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
This right now. I understand, I understand this. This is
my last question.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Who pleased the Wu Tang thing? Don't get me?

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
Who didn't you get to interview that you wanted to interview?
Jada doesn't do these documentaries. We all know her relationship
with Tupac. Kadata has never spoken on Tupac. Ernest Dickerson.
I've never really seen him go into like that scene
of that scene and like what he I've never heard
him tell, like what was that like when you had
this actor on the set, Suge Knight? Who didn't you

(01:12:37):
get the interview? Did you try to interview Kadata? Who
did you want an interview that you couldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
I wanted to interview?

Speaker 4 (01:12:42):
That was the one big disappointing one. But it was
sweet because I met with her and she blessed the
project and she also like signed off on photos, so
she was we had a meeting before I started shooting,
and she wanted to hear what the take was, but
unfortunately she didn't want to and it's very private. So
that was the one sug would have been interesting, but

(01:13:03):
COVID hit and we couldn't get into the prison at
the time, of course, Jada, but I'm actually thankful because
at the end, I did want the women to tell
the story.

Speaker 3 (01:13:14):
I wanted it to be a narrative told by the women.

Speaker 4 (01:13:16):
So my original ambition didn't come to fruition, but it
enabled Glow to become the breakout.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
Says sister, who has mannerisms like tupacas. One time, she goes, well,
he wanted to tell this, and I'm like, that's like
two points, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:13:33):
And she is a world class storyteller. And I don't
know if she was that before. That wasn't her role
in the family. You see her personality. She's like Richard
Pryor meets an all blues man in Red Fox mixed
in the one and I love when I meet And
I'll keep this shirt because I know we're wrapping up.
It's like it gets mystical at a certain point. The

(01:13:56):
way she articulates and talks about out and transcends.

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):
I love storytelling.

Speaker 4 (01:14:05):
I love when you're in a mist of someone You're like,
holy shit, Like this is next level right here with
all this personality, all this humor. And she's not trying
to be funny.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
No, she's just a regular person straight up, all right,
Alan Hughes, I can't urge people more hard enough to
watch that film, to watch The Defiant Ones, and I
just wish you nothing but the best. I need more filmmaking,
more documentaries, more storytelling, more of your stuff as much
as you can, because I just love it and appreciate

(01:14:36):
and respect it so much. And I appreciate you coming
on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 (01:14:41):
I flew all the way to New York to see you,
my friend dear Mama on Hulu.

Speaker 3 (01:14:46):
There's the plug.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
Five parts, this guy of Tupac.

Speaker 3 (01:14:49):
I think you're the best that ever did this. I'mna
be real with you for real.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
Because like I told you, I can't fond enough Iron
Rapport Stereo Podcast, Alan Hughes, I'm out.

Speaker 4 (01:14:59):
And before out, when are you directing another documentary again?

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Where you said Defining Ones almost killed you? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
Yeah, And I was talking to my friend Roll I
was like the reason why I haven't because the Tribe
film almost killed me.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
I could feel it. They're rough.

Speaker 3 (01:15:11):
How long did it take, by the way.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
Three years?

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
That's a real doc.

Speaker 4 (01:15:15):
There's three years, Michael. We need you back on the
microphone with the documentary.

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
Talk about documentary filmmaking, almost like there should be a
mental institution for all documentary filmmakers.

Speaker 3 (01:15:25):
I checked in do I got to say one thing,
I know someone's coming upstairs.

Speaker 4 (01:15:28):
I literally checked into a place called Avalon after The
Defiant Ones to Define Ones came out to lie twenty seventeen,
I checked into a rehab for thirty days in August,
a rehab in Malibu for drugs and mental problems. I
wasn't on drugs, but I had for thirty days.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
I totally understand. They're not fucking fun to make. That's
why I don't understand how you did it. But you
gotta watch it. I told you, I told you it
was good, and I know it was good. Like I said,
you are only as good as your guests. I want

(01:16:09):
to thank Alan Hughes for breaking every single thing down
absolutely positively.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
Watch Dear Mama on FX.

Speaker 1 (01:16:20):
It's so great. Watch The Defiant Ones rewatch Menace to Society,
re Watch the Book of Eli, rewatch Dead Presidents Alan.
Who's thank you for being on the Iron Rapport stereo podcast.
I'm ount Miles, Joann Ak, The Bleach Brothers aka the
Dust Brothers. Take me at it, what's something real?

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
Nice?

Speaker 1 (01:16:37):
Take me out of what's something real now, but most importantly,
end this museum quality Iron Rapports stereo podcast off with
something real bunky, I'm out.

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EP 1,053 - Allen Hughes (Director of Dear Mama, The Defiant Ones, Menace 2 Society) on Doc Writing, Tupac at 19, Goosebump Moments, Directing Denzel

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP 1,053 - Allen Hughes (Director of Dear Mama, The Defiant Ones, Menace 2 Society) on Doc Writing, Tupac at 19, Goosebump Moments, Directing Denzel