November 12, 2025 • 43 mins
Nearly a year after WNBA players opted out of their CBA, WNBPA Executive Director Terri Jackson joins Khristina to break down where WNBA CBA talks stand — and what’s really at stake. With the 30-day extension ticking down, Jackson discusses pay equity, player-led protest moments that defined the 2025 season, and why this round of negotiations feels different — not just for the league, but for the direction of women’s sports itself.
Want more women’s basketball scoop? Follow the show on Instagram @ICYMIwithKW and X @ICYMIwithKW and for more on Khristina, follow her on Instagram @khristinawilliams
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CREDITS
Executive Producers:
Nikki Ettore
Jessie Katz
Tyler Klang
Jonathan Strickland
Producer:
Buffy Gorrilla
Producer & Editor:
Tari Harrison
Host:
Khristina Williams
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
In Case You Missed It with Christina Williams is an
iHeart Women's Sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
and Entertainment. Welcome to another episode of In Case You
Missed It with Christina Williams here on iHeart Women's Sports Network.
It's been nearly a year since the WNBA players.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Have opted out of their collective.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Bargaining agreement demanding transformational change, and since then, negotiations have
been study what tense and as of now, the players
in league are working under our thirty day extension that
IVASA could end with just forty eight hours notice. And
so returning to the show, we have WMBPA executive director
(00:45):
Terry Jackson here with us and she's going to help
us unpack where things are, what's at stake, and how
players are shaping the next era of women's sports.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Terry.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hey, Christina, glad to be here. Thank you, Yeah, I know,
thanks for being here.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
It's been nearly a year since you were last on
the show, and I think about a year ago was
right at the mark when the players had decided to
opt out of the CBA. So since we've talked since
last October you said the process about this was a
transformational change. A year later with record viewership, expansion on
(01:23):
horizon and new media money coming in twenty twenty six,
what does that transformation look like right now?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, you said it, you said it. I mean, all
of those metrics hit the mark and then some What
I have said in this role, and it's been ten seasons,
I like to say that out loud serving this player,
these players, what I've said every year is that they
managed to top themselves in the next year that you know,
(01:51):
and so it's it's just been great, it's been amazing,
and we've got to keep that going. I mean, when
we talk we look at this business. When we opted
out last time back in twenty eighteen for this twenty
twenty CBA that we're under right now, we talked about
changing the model that the business didn't, you know, really
(02:13):
reflect who these players are and all that they're bringing
to the table, all that they've done on the court
and off the court, and that needed to change. And
so that's what happened. And so here we are kind
of fast forward. Who would have thought we would have
evolved to this in twenty twenty five on the precipice
of twenty twenty six and the future. Who would have
(02:34):
thought it would have gone this way? Well, the players
thought it was going to go this way, and so
right now they have said time to press pause, hit
that opt out button again, because this business model is
really really taking off. It is flourishing and always except
the way they are paid and the way they are valued,
(02:58):
and that must change. So that's what has happened of late.
That's what has happened so far. And like I said,
we are on the cusp of what is next and
we're ready to push things forward.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
So let's see how has the last year sort of
validated what the players are pushing for.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Has it made it even harder this past season. I
don't think it's made it harder. I think maybe it's
made it harder for the league and the teams to
understand what is next and why. But it has really
validated the players. It has really shown that they have
got credibility to the position when they have said, we're
(03:40):
opting out of this CBA because we need a salary
system that reflects who we are, that values who we
are and what we bring to the table. A salary
system that is tied to the revenue that we are
driving in a meaningful way. That is a simple sentence.
Everybody understands every word that I just said. It is easy.
(04:02):
And when you see these metrics, when you see the
performance of the business again, it just validates what they
are saying. And it's really really easy. It's really easy.
When folks focus on what the players are actually arguing about,
fighting for, advocating for, they say, that makes sense. They're
(04:24):
not looking for Lebron money, They're looking for their share
of the revenue that they drive. Again, a simple sentence,
and guess what. The league understands this because they've done
it before. They're doing it for the men. They're doing
it with the NBA side of the house, right, and
so they can do it for the women. They've already
(04:47):
done this, and there's lots of creative ways to arrive
at it. The players have been very clear about that too.
Let's see. That's all I can say, Christina, Let's see
where we go from here.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Definitely going to get into that part of the discussion.
But can you walk us through what this thirty day
extension actually means in practice? Because I think when fans
heard that, there was going to be an extension for
thirty days, and then they saw the conditions of the
forty eight hour. No, there's either side can terminate the discussions.
It raised some concerns. So what does it actually mean
(05:22):
to the everyday fan who you know is tuning into
how these negotiations are going right now? What does that
actually mean in practice? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Great question. So one thing I want to say is
everybody looked at the October thirty first deadline and understood
what that was, right, like, that's the time in which
this CBA, the twenty twenty CBA was going to expire.
What they didn't understand, because I think it was a
little bit unclear, is what would happen if a deal
(05:50):
wasn't reached. What would happen on November first? Was there
a strike? Was there a lockout? Was there some kind
of work stoppage? No, that's not what happens. That's not
how this goes. If there's a strike, that's something that
the players would do. That's a player action. There's a
whole bunch of process and discussion that has to happen
before that would occur. If there's a lockout, that's something
(06:12):
that the league and the teams would decide there's a
whole lot of process I assume on their side, you know,
before that decision would be made, and so October thirty
first would come and if a deal wasn't struck by then,
if there wasn't a new agreement in place, then we'd
have to keep negotiating, right like, that's what this is
(06:34):
all about, and that's what the players have said from
the very beginning. They're going to stay at the table
for as long as it takes. And so we didn't
get reach a deal, but what we saw was enough
conversation happening that would open the door for more conversation
to happen. And so what the player said was what
(06:57):
we saw last time was more progress and more productivity
in the conversations, and so they were willing last time
to have an extension. This time, the league kind of
opened the door to conversations. There was a little bit
more movement. The door wasn't completely cracked open, but we
saw that there was an opportunity to keep these conversations going.
(07:19):
And so the player said, yes, let's have an extension,
but on these terms, on these terms, we need to
be able to terminate this extension on forty eight hours notice,
and that was important to them because it needed to
signal this is about trust, This is about relationship building,
(07:42):
This is about what we need to do, the work
we need to do to get a new deal in place,
and we need you at the table. So we extracted
more dates to meet and we said, all right, we
agree league to your offer to extend, you know, for
another thirty days, but here are the conditions on which
(08:03):
we will do that and the ability to terminate. I mean,
like any contract had to be reciprocal, right, I mean,
it's something that the player said that they wanted. It
was important to them. They also understood, you know, if
they have the right to do it, the league should
have the right to do it too. That was no problem,
That was absolutely no problem. But it was important to
(08:24):
say we'll agree to this on these conditions because we
don't quite see what was happening before. Like before we
had a lot more progress going into that extension for
the twenty twenty CBA. We need to see that now.
We need to see that now. I believe we will.
We have more dates on the calendar, like I said,
(08:44):
and both sides are working hard. I can truly say
that for our side, we're working hard. The last time
you were on this show, you talked about the charter
flights program, and I.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Know, like that big line item in the CBA, and
the conversations has obviously been on on the rev share
and what the players deserve in terms of salary, right
But the last time you were the show, you talked
about how the charter flights program that's currently in place
that you all wanted it to be in writing. So
is that still on the table and what are some
of the other pressing issues that is being discussed in
(09:18):
terms of player needs for this CBA right now.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yes, that is absolutely on the table. I mean, the
players understood back then when the Commissioner Kathy Engelbert made
the announcement that there were going to be charter flights
for the twenty twenty four season and for the twenty
twenty five season, that was great. Everybody was thrilled, of course,
surprised and thrilled, pleasantly surprised and thrilled. But that's an
(09:46):
announcement only. That's something that needs to be codified, that
needs to be part of the collective bargaining agreement, that
needs to be part of the transformational change that we're
talking about. Otherwise we'll go back, it will revert back
to coach class and possible middle seats and all the
headaches around that. So this is about health and safety
(10:07):
for the players. It always has been. It is very clear.
It is very clear to the teams and the trainers
and the you know, the athletic staff, and so yes,
this is a priority that must be captured in a
new CBA in writing.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
The other thing that is really important to the players
are standards around facilities.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
We still have the Chicago Sky and I know they
don't want to hear me talking about this, the Chicago
Sky team ownership group, But for years now, for decades,
the players have been practicing and training in a recreational
facility and that is just not okay. And you know,
(10:52):
I think the league has allowed that kind of behavior,
that kind of you know, business operation for just far
too long. And you know, saying that it would be
a competitive advantage to require teams, No, that's not a
competitive advantage. To require teams to provide the necessary resources
and supports for professional athletes to do their job, that's
(11:16):
not a competitive advantage. That's called having a sports franchise
and running it properly. And so, you know, you look
at team ownership groups that have just hit it out
the park, you know, like they understand what to do.
There's the Las Vegas Aces, there's the New York Liberty.
(11:36):
Look what's happened in Phoenix with the Mercury. These teams,
these you know, owners understand the importance of investing. And
so was this spending additional dollars, Yes, it was. That's
what it requires because for so long, these teams and
the league held themselves back from the kind of progress
(11:59):
that we have needed to see. And so having these
kinds of standards in place for owners who are you know,
existing owners, for future owners to understand this is what
is required if you want to have a team in
the WNBA. That's just one example. Yeah, that's totally fair.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And you see in the results right year over year,
the teams that are currently investing into their teams the
success that they've been having. In this Shattered Glass film,
Cheryl s Books talked about not having a pension post
WNBA and I know that that was something that was
sort of discussed last year in our last interviews. So
(12:42):
when you think about pensions, and post career support for
retired WNBA players.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
What would a modernized system look like. This is something
that we talked about again for that last CBA and
we just couldn't get it done. There was so much
that we were trying to get done. And the legs,
the pioneers of this sport, We're definitely on the minds
of the players then and on the minds of the
players now. How can we do better because again, you
(13:12):
look across professional sports in the modern era, there are
these kinds of resources that are in place. I don't
know what the w was thinking, you know, not looking
to create some kind of pension or some kind of
financial resource. We have to create financial security, right, I
(13:34):
mean that is that should be the goal. That there
should be no resistance there. That should be a conversation
and a common goal for both sides to make sure
that those who have paved the way for this sport
have made this possible, these opportunities possible, that they too
are part of the growth, and that they are recognized
(13:56):
for their contributions. That should be easy. It's definitely easy
for the players. You know, those who are playing now,
they're they're thinking about those who have already retired. In
addition to thinking about you know themselves and the future
of this sport. We need this in place again. It
(14:16):
has been far too long that we have gone without this.
And when I and I still watch Shattered Glass and
when I get to that part with Cheryl and listening
to it, I mean the way she delivers that line,
I don't have a pension. I mean, I think when
people hear that, and they hear that for the first time,
(14:37):
they say, they scratch their heads, they say, wait, what,
how is that possible? And I recognize times are changing,
and so you know, pensions look different, but that again,
that kind of financial security, that kind of recognition and
acknowledgment for what you have done, what you have contributed.
(14:58):
We can be creative there too, can come up with
something that recognizes them. We can and we should and
I really hope that the league and the team see
that this is a win for them too.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I had Kathy Engelbert on this show ahead of the
w NBA playoffs this year, and I brought up prioritization
because I know how much that had impacted the players
in the last CBA and you know, I kind of
asked her if that's still something that will be on
the table in terms of coming up with a new
agreement based on how the league is growing in players'
(15:35):
off season opportunities. But I'm curious from the PA's perspective,
is that something that's also a line item in negotiations
this time around for the CBA.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I think there's something within prioritization, these prioritization rules that
we need to clean up for sure. Yes, I think
we need to protect until we see a salary system
that is meaningfully tied to the business right and reflects
their value and truly demonstrates that the WNBA wants to
be the priority because you just can't have prioritization in
(16:11):
one way, right, prioritization for the players to show up
and report on time, Well, what are you doing to
recognize their efforts in that regard?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
So it has to go both ways. Yeah, So there's
opportunity this time to clean that up. But we've got
to protect those off season opportunities for the players. That's important.
You know. I think every player would say she'd want,
you know, the WNBA to be her main gig and
possibly the only one and the one that she can
(16:43):
really pour her heart into and kind of use the
off season to recover and to train and possibly pursue
some other opportunities and not have to play three hundred
and sixty five days out of the year. That's a
really long season on the body. Sure, yes, but until
we get there, there are these off season opportunities that
(17:05):
are valuing players at a far higher rate than what
the w is doing, and so prioritization's got to go
both ways, you know, that is absolutely the conversation. And
we also have to talk about you know, we have
a large population of international players and players who are
playing for their national teams. We've got to protect their
(17:27):
ability right to try out for those opportunities to compete
and to train and to get ready for the Olympics,
the World Cups and all those things. And so that's
really important, that's really important. That's definitely on the table.
Thank you for that question.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, and it's I mean, it's interesting you bring up
the international players, and I feel like when we talk
about what's currently happening, you don't really factor that in
that the WNBA has about twenty percent players who are
coming from overseas to play here in the States. Is well,
and they're also making a huge sacrifice as well. One
(18:15):
of the biggest moments of the playoffs wasn't on the court,
It was in the press room after the links were
eliminated the FISA, Collier's comments about player treatment and league
priorities went viral. From your perspective, Terry, what did that
moment do to help or hurt the union's position in
these negotiations.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
You know what, Nafisa Collier is a player leader. She's
a member of our executive committee. She serves as a
vice president. Everything that our player leaders do help this
moment and her contributions in that moment and the things
that she is doing wait till we tell the story
(18:58):
about how this got negotiated. The things that she's been doing,
you know, in terms of rallying the players and talking
with them and adding to the leadership of Neco Gumak
as our president, have just been tremendous. As you look
at the w NBA players, what is true in any
(19:18):
given season and definitely in this moment, that advocacy is
in their DNA. It is who they are. They totally
understand it and they are committed to it. It feels
it feels a little something different, and maybe it's a
little harder when you're doing it for yourselves because they're
usually out there championing for you know, other other communities
(19:39):
and that they do very well. But if you look
at w NBA players this past year, there are so
many moments that have been the protest moments in their
advocacy for a transformational CBA. Protest moments it has been
opt out. That is a protest moment that anybody across
(19:59):
the lead understands. It takes gut strength, courage to opt
out of a collective bargaining agreement and say we want
a new one. We're going to get to negotiating a
new one. A protest moment is the shirts that they
wore during All Star pay us what you owe us.
That is a protest moment. And I just want folks
(20:23):
who are watching this, who are supporting WNBA players to
recognize these protest moments. What no Fisa Collier did in
her exit interview, she understood the platform that she had,
She understood the responsibility as a leader, as a player leader,
she understood the moment and she stepped out there with
(20:44):
great courage and great strength. And what did you see
the response? From across this union. I mean, I think
the players linked arms even tighter. That was another protest moment.
Did it help our cause? Absolutely one thousand percent. It
did because it unified and it galvanized this membership and
(21:09):
helped them even more focus in and zero in on
what is important right now, and the engagement across this
union has been out the roof. I am so proud
of them.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
At this year's finals, WNBA commissioner Kathy Ingelbert was met
with resounding booze during the championship ceremony, and this came
after the viral the FISA Collier exit interview. How's communication
with Kathy Ingelbert right now and has the trust improved,
especially after a moment like that.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
What's important for folks to know is that Kathy is
my counterpart in negotiations, right Like I sat on one
side of the table with my team, she sits on
the other side of the table with her team. And
the communication. We've got to do business. I mean, that's
what the player said when they it out right. It's business.
That's what it's always been for us. Nothing personal, nothing personal,
(22:08):
business only, and so we've got to continue communicating. We've
got to continue meeting. You know, when it comes to
trust and the relationship repairs that need to be made,
I think Nekogumka, our president, has said it best show
us in the negotiations. No more talk, right, you know,
(22:28):
show us in the negotiations of a new CBA. That's
how you demonstrate trust. That's how you demonstrate that you're
looking to repair and rebuild a relationship that is in
need of repair and rebuilding. Like I think we're all
clear on that, from the NBA to the WNBA side
of the house, we're all clear that trust and relationship
(22:51):
building is critical at this time. But the way you
do that is the way my president said, and what
she said was show us us in this CBA, show
us at the negotiating table. It's business. I want to take.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
This time to do some myth busting because I feel
like as the negotiation's gone, there's so much chatter on
social media about things that probably are not true.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
And so I want to start with the comments about Revshare.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Adam Silver said recently, share isn't the right way to
look at it when it comes to w NBA pay.
The union's response was don't want to share, Adam and
that went viral. What message were you sending with that?
And what do you want people to understand about what
share really means to the players.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Share is the only word to describe what we're talking about.
The players want a meaningful share. So for fans to
understand this, we look at the business. The business is
growing and all the areas Christina that you identified, merchandise, jersey, sales,
as viewership, all the metrics that matter, they're out the
(24:04):
roof for the w Right, they have been and they've
been growing over time. So when that's happening, when you
look at what the players are receiving in salary and
you calculate their share, you see that it's not big
(24:24):
at all. It is not a meaningful share at all.
In fact, as all the other parts of the business
are growing, the players share is going like this. Now,
if we can evaluate player share in football, if we
can do that in the NBA, then we can do
(24:46):
that in the w Also, that is a proper metric
for us to look at. And so when we do that,
we see everything is growing. It's almost like pac Man.
So if your viewers can can remember pac Man, you
know that pack the whole pie is growing. But that
little slice for the players is going like this, it's closing,
(25:07):
it is getting smaller, and that just cannot happen. That's
the reason why they opted out. They saw that their
share was getting smaller. So absolutely, share is the proper word.
It is the metric that they understand. It is the
metric that we understand, and it is the way to
(25:28):
value players. Let's be clear, when folks are buying tickets
and their ticket prices are going up, When folks are
buying tickets, they're not buying them to see the team
owners or the front office, the coaches, the gms. They're
not buying them to see Kathy Engelbert or to wonder
if Adam Silver is going to come into the arena
(25:50):
for their game. They are coming to see the players
that don the jerseys and that are on the court.
That's what it's about. It's really that easy. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
And in terms of the percentages currently, because I see
a lot of misinformation out there again across social across
some of the articles being written, what is the current
percentages that the players are getting now according to this
current CBA.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
The current salary system is not based on the business right.
It was a number that we negotiated. They picked a number,
We picked a number. Their number to us was low,
our number to them was high, and we argued about
what the number should be, and that's where we landed.
(26:41):
And they said, well, it can only grow at three percent.
I think we argued about that, but three percent is
where is where we landed. And so for your viewers
and listeners to understand, you have a number that was
kind of picked out of the air. It's not tied
to any other part of the business. Right now, it's
(27:02):
about one point five and it has been around that
for a while, growing at three percent. So what happens
the players share in the business flatlines, right, It's only
going to be this much over time, over the course
of the CBA, So you know, like, what do you
do with that? What do you do with that? Like,
(27:24):
that's that's not a salary system for the modern era,
and that's certainly not a salary system that is appropriate
for the w and for WNBA players.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
How would you characterize the way the negotiations are going currently?
Do you think that they aren't starting to move in
the right direction or is the repshured a thing that's
sort of stalling installing the conversations currently.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, you know, I think since we had the extension,
I think what the league signaled was some movement. I
don't know if I would call it forward movement, but
there is some movement. And it has been helpful that
we've extracted and I always use that verb because it's
(28:14):
right on. That's the way it feels. We've extracted more
meeting dates. So the more times the tap the parties
can come to the table and have the necessary conversations,
the more opportunities we have to advance and truly get
forward movement. So we'll see, Christina, stay tuned. We're on
(28:34):
the clock. We're on the clock. This extension goes to
the end of the month, and the players made it
very clear they need to see progress at the end
of the thirty day extension.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
If the conversations are still sort of in the same place,
do you continue to extend every thirty days.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Or how does that work? We could? I mean that's
what we did last time, right, I will say again
there was a lot more progress and a lot more
forward movement last time and back you know for the
twenty twenty CBA. That's what led us to naturally say
(29:13):
we've got to extend. I'm hopeful that we get there.
I'm hopeful that that's the kind of rhythm that starts
entering these conversations, these talks. I haven't seen it yet,
but I'm an optimist, So I'm hopeful.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Okay, So, in continuing our myth busting, I want to
pivot the conversation because there's been debate about players founding
other leagues, like Brandish Stewart in the Pisa Collier with
unrival Some say it's a conflict of interest, while others
see it as the purest form of player and powerman.
(30:01):
How does the union balance advocating for players' business interests
while also protecting the integrity of the WNBA ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Unrivaled athletes, unlimited. These off season opportunities are not a
conflict for the W. They are not in competition with
the W. And you know, I hope the W. I
hope the league and the teams begin to get their
arms around these off season opportunities and understand them as
(30:34):
extending the growth right, extending the brand opportunity and the
brand visibility of WNBA players and therefore the W itself.
There's no competition here. There's no conflict here. It's you know,
it's funny to me that, you know, this kind of conflict,
kind of language or tension seems to only creep up
(30:56):
in women's sports, because if we were talking about men's sports,
would be seen as a great opportunity, they would be
seen as amazing, as amazing entrepreneurs, you know, building the brand,
building the footprint, you know, like it would be a
whole other narrative, whole other story that's being told. But
now suddenly we're in women's sports, that, oh, there must
(31:18):
be something negative to be talked about. There must be
something negative about this. Let me tell you this. These
players are really grateful for these other opportunities that provide
them with ways to build their income and to also
you know, work on their game too. So there's no
conflict here. I think it is a great advantage for
(31:41):
us to have players who are pursuing these kinds of
off season opportunities to come back and inform us about
the kinds of supports and resources that they've experienced elsewhere
and should be experiencing in the WNBA. They are learning
the business right from another side, from another angle, and
(32:03):
so they are bringing that acumen, that intelligence back to
the union and as leaders, right and as part of
the CBA committee, they are only adding to our strength.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
And it's clearly a cultural shift happening. Right. Players aren't
just employees anymore. They're investors, as you've mentioned, entrepreneurs, leaders
in the sport. And so I want to pivot the
conversation to understanding what's currently at stake. If a work
stoppage were to happen. Why do you want fans to
interpret that moment?
Speaker 2 (32:37):
If a work stoppage were to happen, I want fans
to realize that it should not have happened, that nobody
wanted this to happen. At least nobody on the player
side of the table would have wanted this to happen. Right,
we understand and we see not just the moment, but
the momentum that women's sports is having and that the
(32:59):
w is experience. So if this happens, if the players
were to strike, I want the fans to understand, it's
because we were pushed to a point of no return.
It's because we were pushed to a point in which
the league and the teams did not take us seriously
that they were not willing to engage. If the league
(33:20):
moves to lock out the players, Wow, that's all I
can say. Like wow, like wow, like if if nobody
wants us to lose this momentum, but if the league
and the teams decide that that is the course of
action they want to take instead of doing the work
(33:41):
at the table, Wow, I what are we doing here?
What are we doing? What are we doing? But I
do want the fans to understand the players are at
the negotiating table for as long as it takes. If
we get the pushback or the resistance or the frustration
(34:06):
in these negotiations, there may come a time when the
players have to take another action. But this is not
something that anybody is taking lightly. It is not something
that folks want. But I do believe Christina that the
fans will understand and that they will support the players
(34:28):
in this action.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And every big movement for change comes with a risk,
right And so, as the executive director of the PA,
how is the union comparing players in case things don't
go their way?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Well, Christina, I can say this. We've been having a
conversation for two years about what opt out could be,
could look like, and what would be next. We've been
having this conversation for two years, and I recognize there
(35:02):
are players who haven't who weren't in the league maybe
at that point, but they're in the league now, and
so they've been hearing me at every union team meeting,
and we went out a couple of times, you know,
this season to talk to players, to make sure that
player leadership was talking to the members, to let them
(35:23):
know this is what it could look like, and so
you need to prepare. Preparations don't happen within the next
week or two. Preparations have been having have been happening
over a long period of time. There are conversations that
we have had hard conversations with our members, tough conversations,
(35:49):
and not just with our members, but also with their representatives,
with the agents also to let them know this is
how things could go. We don't want any surprises on
our See again, we understand that the collective voice is
our greatest strength, and when players understand, when they're informed,
(36:09):
when they're engaged, we stay strong. So we've been doing
the work and we've been talking about it for a
while now, and going back to what you.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Mentioned earlier, you've been in this work over ten years
and you've led players through uncertain moments before. But what
feels different about this moment right now that we're in the.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Opportunity feels different, and it's an opportunity that we cannot miss. Christina,
this isn't just about WNBA players. This isn't just about
women's sports. This is about how women are valued in
the workplace. We know all eyes on us, all eyes
(36:49):
on the w and so I hope the league and
the teams recognize that too. This is our moment to
get it right because so many folks are paying attention,
so many folks are ready to rally around us. They
have rallied around the players, for sure, and they can
rally around this league. And so that's what I'm talking
(37:10):
about when I say, does the league and the team
see that this is their opportunity to shine and this
is their opportunity to win. Also, this isn't just the
player win. It's their win too. But it's time that
they lean in and understand that because this is what
folks are looking for, this is what they're waiting for,
(37:32):
this is what women in work in the workplace are
looking at.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
We've seen some cross union solidarity the MBPA, the nf LPA,
the MLBPA, and the NWSLPA. They've all come and made
statements publicly in solidarity with the w NBA players. What
does that level of cross sport unity mean for the
leverage that you all are having in these negotiations? And
(37:58):
have you seen and have an actual flames in the conversations. Absolutely,
it is so important. And every union you know, understands
what's happening right now for us. You know, we have seen,
you know what's happened for US Women's National Team Players Association,
and they stand with us. With the nws LPA, all
(38:21):
the pas that you have named, they have been in
their own labor struggles right and labor battles, and so
we have come.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
To stand by their side too. This is this is
more than symbolic. This is, you know, showing that folks
are rallying around us in a meaningful way. There are
conversations that I'm having with the executive directors of all
of those unions constantly. They are pouring into me and
into us and our negotiations and just sharpening how we're
(38:52):
doing things. They are a tremendous resource, and it's not
just the players associations, Christina, you see traditional unions who
have been pouring into us too, from across the country
and particularly right here in New York. So many unions
with thousands and thousands of members have been a part
(39:14):
of our letter writing campaign. I know, the inboxes of
the league and the team staff, you know, have been
flooded with the outpouring of support from our brother and
sister unions in sport as well as our brother and
sister unions in the trades. So it has been amazing,
(39:35):
It has been amazing. When I say, folks are watching,
I'm saying I'm truly telling the truth. Folks are watching.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
When you say we're still betting on women, what does
that bet look like in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Oh, bet on women has always meant invest in women,
support women, empower women. Because when you do that, Hello,
when you do that, you actually we see great success
and great wins for men and voys too. And so
we're just talking about doing the kinds of investing, pouring
(40:09):
into the business and providing the kinds of resources that
are critical, that are necessary. And when you do that,
it guess what happens. Everybody wins. Everybody wins. So bet
on women back in twenty eighteen means the same thing
in twenty twenty five. In closing, what does success look
(40:32):
like for the CBA, not just in numbers, but the
legacy that you would want to leave behind. And what
you're saying is it's going to be a transformational CBA
this time around. Wow. Success would would answer the charter
question once and for all. Would codify that. Success would
(40:53):
see a salary system that is the salary system that
we should have had years ago. Right. It is the
one that values the players, that has them sharing and
that is the word, and that is a good word,
sharing in the revenue that they are driving. Success would
(41:16):
mean that we have professionalized this league in terms of resources,
whether it is staff, whether it is training facilities, or
they're playing arenas. Success would mean that we are valuing
and acknowledging the contributions of our legends. I don't know,
(41:38):
there's so many. I said the word before, right, Opportunity.
There's so much opportunity here. Success is going to mean
a lot of different things, and we're going to get there.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Serai Jackson, Executive director of the WNBPA, thank you for giving.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Us such an honest look at this moment.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
No matter how these negotiations shake out, it's clear that
women's basketball isn't just growing, it's evolving, and you're at
the helm of this transformational change. So we want to
thank you again for coming back on the show and
given our listeners us peak into how this moment is
impacting the players and the league.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Christina, I appreciate you. I appreciate the invitation. You are
knowledgeable and thoughtful in this space and highly regarded. I
will say this, I'm not at the helm. The players
are at the helm. I'm their executive director, merely executing
their mission and their instruction.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
But I appreciate this time with you. Thank you, Thank
you so much. That's going to do it for this
episode of In Case You missed It with Christina Williams.
Here on Iheartwomen's Sports. Next week we have newly named
coach of the Toronto Tempo, Sandy Brundello, joins the show,
so don't get to hit that subscribe button so you
don't miss a thing.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Also rate review this podcast right below. We'll see you
next time.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
In Case You Missed It with Christina Williams is an
iHeart Women's Sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
In Case You Missed It with Christina Williams is an
iHeart Women's Sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
and Entertainment. Welcome to another episode of In Case You
Missed It with Christina Williams here on iHeart Women's Sports Network.
It's been nearly a year since the WNBA players.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Have opted out of their collective.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Bargaining agreement demanding transformational change, and since then, negotiations have
been study what tense and as of now, the players
in league are working under our thirty day extension that
IVASA could end with just forty eight hours notice. And
so returning to the show, we have WMBPA executive director
(00:45):
Terry Jackson here with us and she's going to help
us unpack where things are, what's at stake, and how
players are shaping the next era of women's sports.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Terry.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hey, Christina, glad to be here. Thank you, Yeah, I know,
thanks for being here.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
It's been nearly a year since you were last on
the show, and I think about a year ago was
right at the mark when the players had decided to
opt out of the CBA. So since we've talked since
last October you said the process about this was a
transformational change. A year later with record viewership, expansion on
(01:23):
horizon and new media money coming in twenty twenty six,
what does that transformation look like right now?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, you said it, you said it. I mean, all
of those metrics hit the mark and then some What
I have said in this role, and it's been ten seasons,
I like to say that out loud serving this player,
these players, what I've said every year is that they
managed to top themselves in the next year that you know,
(01:51):
and so it's it's just been great, it's been amazing,
and we've got to keep that going. I mean, when
we talk we look at this business. When we opted
out last time back in twenty eighteen for this twenty
twenty CBA that we're under right now, we talked about
changing the model that the business didn't, you know, really
(02:13):
reflect who these players are and all that they're bringing
to the table, all that they've done on the court
and off the court, and that needed to change. And
so that's what happened. And so here we are kind
of fast forward. Who would have thought we would have
evolved to this in twenty twenty five on the precipice
of twenty twenty six and the future. Who would have
(02:34):
thought it would have gone this way? Well, the players
thought it was going to go this way, and so
right now they have said time to press pause, hit
that opt out button again, because this business model is
really really taking off. It is flourishing and always except
the way they are paid and the way they are valued,
(02:58):
and that must change. So that's what has happened of late.
That's what has happened so far. And like I said,
we are on the cusp of what is next and
we're ready to push things forward.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
So let's see how has the last year sort of
validated what the players are pushing for.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Has it made it even harder this past season. I
don't think it's made it harder. I think maybe it's
made it harder for the league and the teams to
understand what is next and why. But it has really
validated the players. It has really shown that they have
got credibility to the position when they have said, we're
(03:40):
opting out of this CBA because we need a salary
system that reflects who we are, that values who we
are and what we bring to the table. A salary
system that is tied to the revenue that we are
driving in a meaningful way. That is a simple sentence.
Everybody understands every word that I just said. It is easy.
(04:02):
And when you see these metrics, when you see the
performance of the business again, it just validates what they
are saying. And it's really really easy. It's really easy.
When folks focus on what the players are actually arguing about,
fighting for, advocating for, they say, that makes sense. They're
(04:24):
not looking for Lebron money, They're looking for their share
of the revenue that they drive. Again, a simple sentence,
and guess what. The league understands this because they've done
it before. They're doing it for the men. They're doing
it with the NBA side of the house, right, and
so they can do it for the women. They've already
(04:47):
done this, and there's lots of creative ways to arrive
at it. The players have been very clear about that too.
Let's see. That's all I can say, Christina, Let's see
where we go from here.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Definitely going to get into that part of the discussion.
But can you walk us through what this thirty day
extension actually means in practice? Because I think when fans
heard that, there was going to be an extension for
thirty days, and then they saw the conditions of the
forty eight hour. No, there's either side can terminate the discussions.
It raised some concerns. So what does it actually mean
(05:22):
to the everyday fan who you know is tuning into
how these negotiations are going right now? What does that
actually mean in practice? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Great question. So one thing I want to say is
everybody looked at the October thirty first deadline and understood
what that was, right, like, that's the time in which
this CBA, the twenty twenty CBA was going to expire.
What they didn't understand, because I think it was a
little bit unclear, is what would happen if a deal
(05:50):
wasn't reached. What would happen on November first? Was there
a strike? Was there a lockout? Was there some kind
of work stoppage? No, that's not what happens. That's not
how this goes. If there's a strike, that's something that
the players would do. That's a player action. There's a
whole bunch of process and discussion that has to happen
before that would occur. If there's a lockout, that's something
(06:12):
that the league and the teams would decide there's a
whole lot of process I assume on their side, you know,
before that decision would be made, and so October thirty
first would come and if a deal wasn't struck by then,
if there wasn't a new agreement in place, then we'd
have to keep negotiating, right like, that's what this is
(06:34):
all about, and that's what the players have said from
the very beginning. They're going to stay at the table
for as long as it takes. And so we didn't
get reach a deal, but what we saw was enough
conversation happening that would open the door for more conversation
to happen. And so what the player said was what
(06:57):
we saw last time was more progress and more productivity
in the conversations, and so they were willing last time
to have an extension. This time, the league kind of
opened the door to conversations. There was a little bit
more movement. The door wasn't completely cracked open, but we
saw that there was an opportunity to keep these conversations going.
(07:19):
And so the player said, yes, let's have an extension,
but on these terms, on these terms, we need to
be able to terminate this extension on forty eight hours notice,
and that was important to them because it needed to
signal this is about trust, This is about relationship building,
(07:42):
This is about what we need to do, the work
we need to do to get a new deal in place,
and we need you at the table. So we extracted
more dates to meet and we said, all right, we
agree league to your offer to extend, you know, for
another thirty days, but here are the conditions on which
(08:03):
we will do that and the ability to terminate. I mean,
like any contract had to be reciprocal, right, I mean,
it's something that the player said that they wanted. It
was important to them. They also understood, you know, if
they have the right to do it, the league should
have the right to do it too. That was no problem,
That was absolutely no problem. But it was important to
(08:24):
say we'll agree to this on these conditions because we
don't quite see what was happening before. Like before we
had a lot more progress going into that extension for
the twenty twenty CBA. We need to see that now.
We need to see that now. I believe we will.
We have more dates on the calendar, like I said,
(08:44):
and both sides are working hard. I can truly say
that for our side, we're working hard. The last time
you were on this show, you talked about the charter
flights program, and I.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Know, like that big line item in the CBA, and
the conversations has obviously been on on the rev share
and what the players deserve in terms of salary, right
But the last time you were the show, you talked
about how the charter flights program that's currently in place
that you all wanted it to be in writing. So
is that still on the table and what are some
of the other pressing issues that is being discussed in
(09:18):
terms of player needs for this CBA right now.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yes, that is absolutely on the table. I mean, the
players understood back then when the Commissioner Kathy Engelbert made
the announcement that there were going to be charter flights
for the twenty twenty four season and for the twenty
twenty five season, that was great. Everybody was thrilled, of course,
surprised and thrilled, pleasantly surprised and thrilled. But that's an
(09:46):
announcement only. That's something that needs to be codified, that
needs to be part of the collective bargaining agreement, that
needs to be part of the transformational change that we're
talking about. Otherwise we'll go back, it will revert back
to coach class and possible middle seats and all the
headaches around that. So this is about health and safety
(10:07):
for the players. It always has been. It is very clear.
It is very clear to the teams and the trainers
and the you know, the athletic staff, and so yes,
this is a priority that must be captured in a
new CBA in writing.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
The other thing that is really important to the players
are standards around facilities.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
We still have the Chicago Sky and I know they
don't want to hear me talking about this, the Chicago
Sky team ownership group, But for years now, for decades,
the players have been practicing and training in a recreational
facility and that is just not okay. And you know,
(10:52):
I think the league has allowed that kind of behavior,
that kind of you know, business operation for just far
too long. And you know, saying that it would be
a competitive advantage to require teams, No, that's not a
competitive advantage. To require teams to provide the necessary resources
and supports for professional athletes to do their job, that's
(11:16):
not a competitive advantage. That's called having a sports franchise
and running it properly. And so, you know, you look
at team ownership groups that have just hit it out
the park, you know, like they understand what to do.
There's the Las Vegas Aces, there's the New York Liberty.
(11:36):
Look what's happened in Phoenix with the Mercury. These teams,
these you know, owners understand the importance of investing. And
so was this spending additional dollars, Yes, it was. That's
what it requires because for so long, these teams and
the league held themselves back from the kind of progress
(11:59):
that we have needed to see. And so having these
kinds of standards in place for owners who are you know,
existing owners, for future owners to understand this is what
is required if you want to have a team in
the WNBA. That's just one example. Yeah, that's totally fair.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And you see in the results right year over year,
the teams that are currently investing into their teams the
success that they've been having. In this Shattered Glass film,
Cheryl s Books talked about not having a pension post
WNBA and I know that that was something that was
sort of discussed last year in our last interviews. So
(12:42):
when you think about pensions, and post career support for
retired WNBA players.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
What would a modernized system look like. This is something
that we talked about again for that last CBA and
we just couldn't get it done. There was so much
that we were trying to get done. And the legs,
the pioneers of this sport, We're definitely on the minds
of the players then and on the minds of the
players now. How can we do better because again, you
(13:12):
look across professional sports in the modern era, there are
these kinds of resources that are in place. I don't
know what the w was thinking, you know, not looking
to create some kind of pension or some kind of
financial resource. We have to create financial security, right, I
(13:34):
mean that is that should be the goal. That there
should be no resistance there. That should be a conversation
and a common goal for both sides to make sure
that those who have paved the way for this sport
have made this possible, these opportunities possible, that they too
are part of the growth, and that they are recognized
(13:56):
for their contributions. That should be easy. It's definitely easy
for the players. You know, those who are playing now,
they're they're thinking about those who have already retired. In
addition to thinking about you know themselves and the future
of this sport. We need this in place again. It
(14:16):
has been far too long that we have gone without this.
And when I and I still watch Shattered Glass and
when I get to that part with Cheryl and listening
to it, I mean the way she delivers that line,
I don't have a pension. I mean, I think when
people hear that, and they hear that for the first time,
(14:37):
they say, they scratch their heads, they say, wait, what,
how is that possible? And I recognize times are changing,
and so you know, pensions look different, but that again,
that kind of financial security, that kind of recognition and
acknowledgment for what you have done, what you have contributed.
(14:58):
We can be creative there too, can come up with
something that recognizes them. We can and we should and
I really hope that the league and the team see
that this is a win for them too.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I had Kathy Engelbert on this show ahead of the
w NBA playoffs this year, and I brought up prioritization
because I know how much that had impacted the players
in the last CBA and you know, I kind of
asked her if that's still something that will be on
the table in terms of coming up with a new
agreement based on how the league is growing in players'
(15:35):
off season opportunities. But I'm curious from the PA's perspective,
is that something that's also a line item in negotiations
this time around for the CBA.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I think there's something within prioritization, these prioritization rules that
we need to clean up for sure. Yes, I think
we need to protect until we see a salary system
that is meaningfully tied to the business right and reflects
their value and truly demonstrates that the WNBA wants to
be the priority because you just can't have prioritization in
(16:11):
one way, right, prioritization for the players to show up
and report on time, Well, what are you doing to
recognize their efforts in that regard?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
So it has to go both ways. Yeah, So there's
opportunity this time to clean that up. But we've got
to protect those off season opportunities for the players. That's important.
You know. I think every player would say she'd want,
you know, the WNBA to be her main gig and
possibly the only one and the one that she can
(16:43):
really pour her heart into and kind of use the
off season to recover and to train and possibly pursue
some other opportunities and not have to play three hundred
and sixty five days out of the year. That's a
really long season on the body. Sure, yes, but until
we get there, there are these off season opportunities that
(17:05):
are valuing players at a far higher rate than what
the w is doing, and so prioritization's got to go
both ways, you know, that is absolutely the conversation. And
we also have to talk about you know, we have
a large population of international players and players who are
playing for their national teams. We've got to protect their
(17:27):
ability right to try out for those opportunities to compete
and to train and to get ready for the Olympics,
the World Cups and all those things. And so that's
really important, that's really important. That's definitely on the table.
Thank you for that question.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, and it's I mean, it's interesting you bring up
the international players, and I feel like when we talk
about what's currently happening, you don't really factor that in
that the WNBA has about twenty percent players who are
coming from overseas to play here in the States. Is well,
and they're also making a huge sacrifice as well. One
(18:15):
of the biggest moments of the playoffs wasn't on the court,
It was in the press room after the links were
eliminated the FISA, Collier's comments about player treatment and league
priorities went viral. From your perspective, Terry, what did that
moment do to help or hurt the union's position in
these negotiations.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
You know what, Nafisa Collier is a player leader. She's
a member of our executive committee. She serves as a
vice president. Everything that our player leaders do help this
moment and her contributions in that moment and the things
that she is doing wait till we tell the story
(18:58):
about how this got negotiated. The things that she's been doing,
you know, in terms of rallying the players and talking
with them and adding to the leadership of Neco Gumak
as our president, have just been tremendous. As you look
at the w NBA players, what is true in any
(19:18):
given season and definitely in this moment, that advocacy is
in their DNA. It is who they are. They totally
understand it and they are committed to it. It feels
it feels a little something different, and maybe it's a
little harder when you're doing it for yourselves because they're
usually out there championing for you know, other other communities
(19:39):
and that they do very well. But if you look
at w NBA players this past year, there are so
many moments that have been the protest moments in their
advocacy for a transformational CBA. Protest moments it has been
opt out. That is a protest moment that anybody across
(19:59):
the lead understands. It takes gut strength, courage to opt
out of a collective bargaining agreement and say we want
a new one. We're going to get to negotiating a
new one. A protest moment is the shirts that they
wore during All Star pay us what you owe us.
That is a protest moment. And I just want folks
(20:23):
who are watching this, who are supporting WNBA players to
recognize these protest moments. What no Fisa Collier did in
her exit interview, she understood the platform that she had,
She understood the responsibility as a leader, as a player leader,
she understood the moment and she stepped out there with
(20:44):
great courage and great strength. And what did you see
the response? From across this union. I mean, I think
the players linked arms even tighter. That was another protest moment.
Did it help our cause? Absolutely one thousand percent. It
did because it unified and it galvanized this membership and
(21:09):
helped them even more focus in and zero in on
what is important right now, and the engagement across this
union has been out the roof. I am so proud
of them.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
At this year's finals, WNBA commissioner Kathy Ingelbert was met
with resounding booze during the championship ceremony, and this came
after the viral the FISA Collier exit interview. How's communication
with Kathy Ingelbert right now and has the trust improved,
especially after a moment like that.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
What's important for folks to know is that Kathy is
my counterpart in negotiations, right Like I sat on one
side of the table with my team, she sits on
the other side of the table with her team. And
the communication. We've got to do business. I mean, that's
what the player said when they it out right. It's business.
That's what it's always been for us. Nothing personal, nothing personal,
(22:08):
business only, and so we've got to continue communicating. We've
got to continue meeting. You know, when it comes to
trust and the relationship repairs that need to be made,
I think Nekogumka, our president, has said it best show
us in the negotiations. No more talk, right, you know,
(22:28):
show us in the negotiations of a new CBA. That's
how you demonstrate trust. That's how you demonstrate that you're
looking to repair and rebuild a relationship that is in
need of repair and rebuilding. Like I think we're all
clear on that, from the NBA to the WNBA side
of the house, we're all clear that trust and relationship
(22:51):
building is critical at this time. But the way you
do that is the way my president said, and what
she said was show us us in this CBA, show
us at the negotiating table. It's business. I want to take.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
This time to do some myth busting because I feel
like as the negotiation's gone, there's so much chatter on
social media about things that probably are not true.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
And so I want to start with the comments about Revshare.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Adam Silver said recently, share isn't the right way to
look at it when it comes to w NBA pay.
The union's response was don't want to share, Adam and
that went viral. What message were you sending with that?
And what do you want people to understand about what
share really means to the players.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Share is the only word to describe what we're talking about.
The players want a meaningful share. So for fans to
understand this, we look at the business. The business is
growing and all the areas Christina that you identified, merchandise, jersey, sales,
as viewership, all the metrics that matter, they're out the
(24:04):
roof for the w Right, they have been and they've
been growing over time. So when that's happening, when you
look at what the players are receiving in salary and
you calculate their share, you see that it's not big
(24:24):
at all. It is not a meaningful share at all.
In fact, as all the other parts of the business
are growing, the players share is going like this. Now,
if we can evaluate player share in football, if we
can do that in the NBA, then we can do
(24:46):
that in the w Also, that is a proper metric
for us to look at. And so when we do that,
we see everything is growing. It's almost like pac Man.
So if your viewers can can remember pac Man, you
know that pack the whole pie is growing. But that
little slice for the players is going like this, it's closing,
(25:07):
it is getting smaller, and that just cannot happen. That's
the reason why they opted out. They saw that their
share was getting smaller. So absolutely, share is the proper word.
It is the metric that they understand. It is the
metric that we understand, and it is the way to
(25:28):
value players. Let's be clear, when folks are buying tickets
and their ticket prices are going up, When folks are
buying tickets, they're not buying them to see the team
owners or the front office, the coaches, the gms. They're
not buying them to see Kathy Engelbert or to wonder
if Adam Silver is going to come into the arena
(25:50):
for their game. They are coming to see the players
that don the jerseys and that are on the court.
That's what it's about. It's really that easy. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
And in terms of the percentages currently, because I see
a lot of misinformation out there again across social across
some of the articles being written, what is the current
percentages that the players are getting now according to this
current CBA.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
The current salary system is not based on the business right.
It was a number that we negotiated. They picked a number,
We picked a number. Their number to us was low,
our number to them was high, and we argued about
what the number should be, and that's where we landed.
(26:41):
And they said, well, it can only grow at three percent.
I think we argued about that, but three percent is
where is where we landed. And so for your viewers
and listeners to understand, you have a number that was
kind of picked out of the air. It's not tied
to any other part of the business. Right now, it's
(27:02):
about one point five and it has been around that
for a while, growing at three percent. So what happens
the players share in the business flatlines, right, It's only
going to be this much over time, over the course
of the CBA, So you know, like, what do you
do with that? What do you do with that? Like,
(27:24):
that's that's not a salary system for the modern era,
and that's certainly not a salary system that is appropriate
for the w and for WNBA players.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
How would you characterize the way the negotiations are going currently?
Do you think that they aren't starting to move in
the right direction or is the repshured a thing that's
sort of stalling installing the conversations currently.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, you know, I think since we had the extension,
I think what the league signaled was some movement. I
don't know if I would call it forward movement, but
there is some movement. And it has been helpful that
we've extracted and I always use that verb because it's
(28:14):
right on. That's the way it feels. We've extracted more
meeting dates. So the more times the tap the parties
can come to the table and have the necessary conversations,
the more opportunities we have to advance and truly get
forward movement. So we'll see, Christina, stay tuned. We're on
(28:34):
the clock. We're on the clock. This extension goes to
the end of the month, and the players made it
very clear they need to see progress at the end
of the thirty day extension.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
If the conversations are still sort of in the same place,
do you continue to extend every thirty days.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Or how does that work? We could? I mean that's
what we did last time, right, I will say again
there was a lot more progress and a lot more
forward movement last time and back you know for the
twenty twenty CBA. That's what led us to naturally say
(29:13):
we've got to extend. I'm hopeful that we get there.
I'm hopeful that that's the kind of rhythm that starts
entering these conversations, these talks. I haven't seen it yet,
but I'm an optimist, So I'm hopeful.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Okay, So, in continuing our myth busting, I want to
pivot the conversation because there's been debate about players founding
other leagues, like Brandish Stewart in the Pisa Collier with
unrival Some say it's a conflict of interest, while others
see it as the purest form of player and powerman.
(30:01):
How does the union balance advocating for players' business interests
while also protecting the integrity of the WNBA ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Unrivaled athletes, unlimited. These off season opportunities are not a
conflict for the W. They are not in competition with
the W. And you know, I hope the W. I
hope the league and the teams begin to get their
arms around these off season opportunities and understand them as
(30:34):
extending the growth right, extending the brand opportunity and the
brand visibility of WNBA players and therefore the W itself.
There's no competition here. There's no conflict here. It's you know,
it's funny to me that, you know, this kind of conflict,
kind of language or tension seems to only creep up
(30:56):
in women's sports, because if we were talking about men's sports,
would be seen as a great opportunity, they would be
seen as amazing, as amazing entrepreneurs, you know, building the brand,
building the footprint, you know, like it would be a
whole other narrative, whole other story that's being told. But
now suddenly we're in women's sports, that, oh, there must
(31:18):
be something negative to be talked about. There must be
something negative about this. Let me tell you this. These
players are really grateful for these other opportunities that provide
them with ways to build their income and to also
you know, work on their game too. So there's no
conflict here. I think it is a great advantage for
(31:41):
us to have players who are pursuing these kinds of
off season opportunities to come back and inform us about
the kinds of supports and resources that they've experienced elsewhere
and should be experiencing in the WNBA. They are learning
the business right from another side, from another angle, and
(32:03):
so they are bringing that acumen, that intelligence back to
the union and as leaders, right and as part of
the CBA committee, they are only adding to our strength.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
And it's clearly a cultural shift happening. Right. Players aren't
just employees anymore. They're investors, as you've mentioned, entrepreneurs, leaders
in the sport. And so I want to pivot the
conversation to understanding what's currently at stake. If a work
stoppage were to happen. Why do you want fans to
interpret that moment?
Speaker 2 (32:37):
If a work stoppage were to happen, I want fans
to realize that it should not have happened, that nobody
wanted this to happen. At least nobody on the player
side of the table would have wanted this to happen. Right,
we understand and we see not just the moment, but
the momentum that women's sports is having and that the
(32:59):
w is experience. So if this happens, if the players
were to strike, I want the fans to understand, it's
because we were pushed to a point of no return.
It's because we were pushed to a point in which
the league and the teams did not take us seriously
that they were not willing to engage. If the league
(33:20):
moves to lock out the players, Wow, that's all I
can say. Like wow, like wow, like if if nobody
wants us to lose this momentum, but if the league
and the teams decide that that is the course of
action they want to take instead of doing the work
(33:41):
at the table, Wow, I what are we doing here?
What are we doing? What are we doing? But I
do want the fans to understand the players are at
the negotiating table for as long as it takes. If
we get the pushback or the resistance or the frustration
(34:06):
in these negotiations, there may come a time when the
players have to take another action. But this is not
something that anybody is taking lightly. It is not something
that folks want. But I do believe Christina that the
fans will understand and that they will support the players
(34:28):
in this action.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And every big movement for change comes with a risk,
right And so, as the executive director of the PA,
how is the union comparing players in case things don't
go their way?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Well, Christina, I can say this. We've been having a
conversation for two years about what opt out could be,
could look like, and what would be next. We've been
having this conversation for two years, and I recognize there
(35:02):
are players who haven't who weren't in the league maybe
at that point, but they're in the league now, and
so they've been hearing me at every union team meeting,
and we went out a couple of times, you know,
this season to talk to players, to make sure that
player leadership was talking to the members, to let them
(35:23):
know this is what it could look like, and so
you need to prepare. Preparations don't happen within the next
week or two. Preparations have been having have been happening
over a long period of time. There are conversations that
we have had hard conversations with our members, tough conversations,
(35:49):
and not just with our members, but also with their representatives,
with the agents also to let them know this is
how things could go. We don't want any surprises on
our See again, we understand that the collective voice is
our greatest strength, and when players understand, when they're informed,
(36:09):
when they're engaged, we stay strong. So we've been doing
the work and we've been talking about it for a
while now, and going back to what you.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Mentioned earlier, you've been in this work over ten years
and you've led players through uncertain moments before. But what
feels different about this moment right now that we're in the.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Opportunity feels different, and it's an opportunity that we cannot miss. Christina,
this isn't just about WNBA players. This isn't just about
women's sports. This is about how women are valued in
the workplace. We know all eyes on us, all eyes
(36:49):
on the w and so I hope the league and
the teams recognize that too. This is our moment to
get it right because so many folks are paying attention,
so many folks are ready to rally around us. They
have rallied around the players, for sure, and they can
rally around this league. And so that's what I'm talking
(37:10):
about when I say, does the league and the team
see that this is their opportunity to shine and this
is their opportunity to win. Also, this isn't just the
player win. It's their win too. But it's time that
they lean in and understand that because this is what
folks are looking for, this is what they're waiting for,
(37:32):
this is what women in work in the workplace are
looking at.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
We've seen some cross union solidarity the MBPA, the nf LPA,
the MLBPA, and the NWSLPA. They've all come and made
statements publicly in solidarity with the w NBA players. What
does that level of cross sport unity mean for the
leverage that you all are having in these negotiations? And
(37:58):
have you seen and have an actual flames in the conversations. Absolutely,
it is so important. And every union you know, understands
what's happening right now for us. You know, we have seen,
you know what's happened for US Women's National Team Players Association,
and they stand with us. With the nws LPA, all
(38:21):
the pas that you have named, they have been in
their own labor struggles right and labor battles, and so
we have come.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
To stand by their side too. This is this is
more than symbolic. This is, you know, showing that folks
are rallying around us in a meaningful way. There are
conversations that I'm having with the executive directors of all
of those unions constantly. They are pouring into me and
into us and our negotiations and just sharpening how we're
(38:52):
doing things. They are a tremendous resource, and it's not
just the players associations, Christina, you see traditional unions who
have been pouring into us too, from across the country
and particularly right here in New York. So many unions
with thousands and thousands of members have been a part
(39:14):
of our letter writing campaign. I know, the inboxes of
the league and the team staff, you know, have been
flooded with the outpouring of support from our brother and
sister unions in sport as well as our brother and
sister unions in the trades. So it has been amazing,
(39:35):
It has been amazing. When I say, folks are watching,
I'm saying I'm truly telling the truth. Folks are watching.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
When you say we're still betting on women, what does
that bet look like in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Oh, bet on women has always meant invest in women,
support women, empower women. Because when you do that, Hello,
when you do that, you actually we see great success
and great wins for men and voys too. And so
we're just talking about doing the kinds of investing, pouring
(40:09):
into the business and providing the kinds of resources that
are critical, that are necessary. And when you do that,
it guess what happens. Everybody wins. Everybody wins. So bet
on women back in twenty eighteen means the same thing
in twenty twenty five. In closing, what does success look
(40:32):
like for the CBA, not just in numbers, but the
legacy that you would want to leave behind. And what
you're saying is it's going to be a transformational CBA
this time around. Wow. Success would would answer the charter
question once and for all. Would codify that. Success would
(40:53):
see a salary system that is the salary system that
we should have had years ago. Right. It is the
one that values the players, that has them sharing and
that is the word, and that is a good word,
sharing in the revenue that they are driving. Success would
(41:16):
mean that we have professionalized this league in terms of resources,
whether it is staff, whether it is training facilities, or
they're playing arenas. Success would mean that we are valuing
and acknowledging the contributions of our legends. I don't know,
(41:38):
there's so many. I said the word before, right, Opportunity.
There's so much opportunity here. Success is going to mean
a lot of different things, and we're going to get there.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Serai Jackson, Executive director of the WNBPA, thank you for giving.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Us such an honest look at this moment.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
No matter how these negotiations shake out, it's clear that
women's basketball isn't just growing, it's evolving, and you're at
the helm of this transformational change. So we want to
thank you again for coming back on the show and
given our listeners us peak into how this moment is
impacting the players and the league.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Christina, I appreciate you. I appreciate the invitation. You are
knowledgeable and thoughtful in this space and highly regarded. I
will say this, I'm not at the helm. The players
are at the helm. I'm their executive director, merely executing
their mission and their instruction.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
But I appreciate this time with you. Thank you, Thank
you so much. That's going to do it for this
episode of In Case You missed It with Christina Williams.
Here on Iheartwomen's Sports. Next week we have newly named
coach of the Toronto Tempo, Sandy Brundello, joins the show,
so don't get to hit that subscribe button so you
don't miss a thing.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Also rate review this podcast right below. We'll see you
next time.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
In Case You Missed It with Christina Williams is an
iHeart Women's Sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Khristina Williams
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