February 26, 2025 • 59 mins
On this week's show, Oscar winner Cameron Crowe joins for an incredible conversation that covers his recently rediscovered Tom Petty film, writing enduring catchphrases like "Show me the money," and some of his most memorable interviews. Ever the journalist, he even asks Sage about her upcoming album.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
This week on in Service of we had the great
honor of speaking with Cameron Crowe, the incredible writer, director,
and journalist known for his deeply kind spirit and profound
storytelling ability. His love for communication and humanity is palpable.
We talk about process in the art of conversation and
the transformative power of truly listening.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
If you could live in any song, what song would
you live in?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I love Pete Townsend's stuff just because it's so atmospheric
and you're not unlike Joni. The words take you on
a journey and you have a feeling and you have
a spirit to it. And then also the words you
can key into the words when you up. But mostly
(01:01):
it casts a spell and uh I lately I've really
been missing listening to Pete Townsend his solo stuff, particularly
for that.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Is there one particular Pee Townsend song dubik.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I'd probably pick all the best Cowboys Have Chinese Eyes
the album, because those songs are all about kind of
like claiming your place in the world and your adulthood
in a way from a guy that was so eloquent
about teenage, you know, excitement and spirit and rebellion, like
(01:35):
he's able to address aging in an equally exciting and
thoughtful way. And also just I love his guitar play
what about You? What about You? What are you guys
listening to right now? Well?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
I finally got stage's out, though I've been on that
NonStop for the last three days.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Is it finished? Stage? It's all done?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
And uh spend many months, but I'm very excited and
happy that it's here. Yeah, And I've been listening to that,
and I don't know, I've been kind of going back
in time and listening to Sarah Vaughn and some of
the oldies. Whenever it's like gets into you know, fall,
(02:18):
getting into winter, I always like escape and hibernate back
into into that kind of music.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I know Faul is so great for that. What did
What do you think you learned from Larry Klein that
you didn't already know? You?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Just watching that man listen was such a treat, Like
I've never seen someone listen like the way he does.
I don't even think there's language to really encapsulate what
that's like. But there's this sixth sense that kind of
emerges around him that I feel like I can see
when he listens to something and he aside from listening
(03:01):
just watching him play, because he played some this on
the album as well. That's just a whole very strange,
very cool experience. And we shared that the love of
the words strange. We were always trying to like figure
out how to make things a little bit more strange.
And I just adore that about him, and it was
it was a real treat to watch that. I learned
(03:23):
so much in such a short amount of time.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Does he does he close his eyes when he listens?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
He closes his eyes and it seems like some other
I awakens around him.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah, that's so great people that listen memorably. It's an
art for him.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, what have you been listening to?
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Was really interesting to go back and revisit Tom Patty
because it's funny.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Petty is someone that I continually develop a new appreciation for,
even though I've seen him since, but probably the first
time was eighty four.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Wow. Why is it that he feels still somewhat underrated
even though everybody loves him?
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Probably because he was that good, but at the time
he was appreciated that way. I think he would like
to developed them definitely as he got older. You alsoid
he just became a better songwriter.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yeah, it's really true.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
I mean, if you ask me, and it's tough, you know,
because there's so many great petty songs.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
But I'm going crawling back to you to me. That's
in the top ten songs of all time.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
An amazing song, incredible, It is a perfect song. I
was trying to figure out when he pivoted and went
for kind of deeper water, because it it's hard to say,
because it wasn't. It wasn't like all of a sudden
he did his Nebraska and became like that guy. He
(05:00):
just kind of started well, it's in his first album,
like the Wild One Forever is a super introspective, deep,
kind of catcher in the rye kind of song. But
he didn't start going to his own roots and his
southern roots and all that stuff until later. But it
(05:22):
starts happening. It's like the water gets warmer and suddenly
suddenly it's heated.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well, he matured. He's very similar to me, to Dylan. Dylan,
I'd always amazed me that he could write a song
and I don't think twice.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
It's all Right, which is basically one of the biggest
fuck you songs of all time, and then writes, so
if you see her saylo, which is literally the most
sensitive song of all time, and Patty was similar, you
just get less angry as you get older. He wrote
a song like you Got Lucky, you know, which is
basically like you got lucky when you met me. And
then he goes to you the best of Everything, which
(05:56):
is like, wherever you are in the world, that was
you the best of everything.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Wow. Yeah, yeah, really well observed. It's really true. Huh
you just write fucky songs early? What are you doing
in my life? Stuff like that? Yeah, amazing, what a
great writer and worked hard at that stuff. He worked,
say just it's like an interesting thing like I always thought,
(06:22):
like so many of the great songs happened, you know,
like on the back of a napkin and a burst,
like you pick up the signal and you take it down,
and that's yesterday, Paul McCartney. You know, it's like but
Petty tells you that he had to work at that stuff,
and he would just be day in and day out.
(06:44):
You'd hear that rhythm of the song through the door
where he was working, and then like slowly more pieces
kind of came together, and then you know, finally, you
have a song that sounds effortless? Are you? Are? You?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Do?
Speaker 5 (07:00):
You have songs that arrived like in a rush, that
have equal value to the songs that took a long
time to make work, and vice versa.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
You know, this is what Steve and my favorite conversations
to have. How so many artists identify themselves as conduits
and it's just so fantastical.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
And so cool.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
But I think it's all about where the seeds were planted.
I think you can have the whole song arrive in
a moment, but the seed was planted years ago, and
sometimes the seeds need to be sown, and those songs
that could be just as special as the ones that
arrive like they just have to be worked on. But
(07:43):
I don't know. I think for me, it's my favorite
songs that I've written have happened in a short amount
of time. But I know that that the beginnings of
them perhaps started many, you know, maybe years ago inside
of me, and then they just kind of arrive. But
it's hard to.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
It's difficult. It's difficult. I can only imagine how like
crafting a song can be magical but also aggravating, because
I never I never understood that, like as a singer,
a singer can't sing every word, Like there are words
(08:23):
that some singers can't sing. And I never thought of
it that way. I just assume, like, oh, a great
singer can sing anything, but apparently like sometimes, and I
just realized it recently. It's like, you know, songwriters can
be like, oh, I can't sing that word generous. That
(08:45):
just doesn't sound good coming out of my mouth, you know,
But I can say this other word, you know. So
it's like, it's interesting how a word sings. It's something
that people take for granted, Like from the point of
view of a singer, you would know much more than
this than me because I can't sae. Well.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I think everyone sings in their own ways, right, Like
I think the creative conduitness can be put onto any
form of creating. This is totally nerdy, but the root
of genius is Latin. To give birth, and any new
thing in this world you have to birth it, and
(09:25):
it takes hard work. And I'm sure you have had
this experience so many times when you have a moment
of divine inspiration where you've worked so hard and then
all of a sudden, it all clicks but I think
at the end of the day, it's really all one
and the same and we all just sing in our
own ways.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
That sounds right, That sounds really right.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
So for you, what were some of those moments of
divine inspiration? Like in a Joni film, there are moments
even when you're writing as opposed to singing, you write
something and you're just like, I'll go back and read
articles I wrote and be like, wait, that doesn't even
fucking sound like me. Where did that come from?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah, I've read some articles recently that's that felt exactly
like that, Like, wow, I was really like I was
really inspired about you know, Neil Young, I really had
some things to say. This is really fun to read
and it and I guess the gift of having done
(10:27):
stuff that you know, you can look back on thanks
to the Internet and everything pretty easily, is you can
you can look up like, oh, well, like around the
time of Russ Never Sleeps, like what what what was
going on in his life? Let me just check with
what he said in those interviews and stuff, And it's like,
(10:49):
how was I lucky enough to like ask the right
question to get this answer? And and also like people's
answers change over the years. So it's really good to
have stuff in kind of in real time at the
time that an artist you admire made the thing, because
(11:09):
it gets out into the world and there's a different
opinion that you have of it, or like people make
you think one thing is more important than the other,
or they've asked more about X, Y, and Z rather
than you know, RST in your catalog of work. But
it's like to see what they say when everything kind
of has equal value and they just did it. It's
(11:29):
fascinating and I was really I was really happy to
read some of that stuff. There's somebody's doing a Mojo
article on Neil Young in the seventies and there's really
good writer and he he had written about Tom Petty
and he said like, oh, I'm also doing this thing
about Neil Young in the seventies, Like could you talk
to me a little bit about some of the stuff
(11:50):
that happened when you were writing about him when you
were first getting started. So I went back and read
some of it, and like, I was blown away at
Neil's generosity talking about this stuff, and also like the
fire in him about needing to change and to always
be ahead of what the expectations were like his thing
(12:12):
as a younger guy was almost like he didn't know
if he was going to live a long time, because
his his thing was like I don't want to be
in the place where where people think I am when
when a new album comes out, I got to be
past it. I got to be somewhere else. And it
simultaneously was really inspiring, but also like I remember the
(12:36):
time when a new album was really important and it wasn't.
It wasn't something that was so easy to get because
it just dropped, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't like,
you know, my album dropped last weekend. It's like I
put out a new album. You know, I don't put
him out that much, and it's like an event and
(13:00):
and you know you have to like seek it out
and get it or a friend must have it and
you go over to your friend and listen to it
with your friend. So it was a glimpse of a
time when when like they were paintings that were appearing,
you know, in their own time and place and not
always often. You know. It's just like, I don't know,
(13:23):
it was exciting. It was exciting to read that stuff.
But he's an exciting artist.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Do you find though, that when you look at it,
it's not just reflective of what he said, but where
you were because what the passion was. And it's funny
you say, how'd you get lucky to ask the right question?
It matters how much you care about it too, So
it really depends on like you said, you know, having
the baby inspires creativity with you, like okay, perfect example.
(14:01):
I was talking to Paul t at Golden Voice the
other day because I was trying to get sage on Coachella,
and you know, Paul's a friend forever, and one of
the biggest compliments he ever paid me was the first
Desert trip, which.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
You know, Neil Young the World Place missed it.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
The first review they shared was mine, and I even
know Paul was going to share it, and afterwards I
asked him about it and he said, everybody said your
review best captured the essence of the event, which is
the biggest fucking compliment in the world, you know, And
we were talking about them, and it's also because of
how much I cared about who I was there with
(14:39):
the event everything.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
So it's a mat huh.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
It It very much matters for you. So it's probably
interesting to go back and seeing because I'm sure there
were things that like, it gives you insight into where
you were too.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Wow, it's true. Well it's the communal experience, I mean.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Because Neil has to pick up on your energy. It's
funny because I've interviewed in an older Neil. I love Neil,
but Neil can be a dick in a good way.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Literally. There was one day we had an interview set
scheduled for a Thursday.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
He never called me. He's just like, I don't feel
like it. Calls me the next day. No apology, you
know nothing. It's just like, I'm Neil Young. I'll fucking
talk to you when I want to.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Wow. Wow, he was. I really want to interview him
about when he first met Jonie too, because they both
had polio. They both you know, are from like small
towns in Canada. They still have this warm relationship. And
(15:42):
when nobody else and this is the cool sequence in
the movie too, when when nobody else was being nice
to Jony particularly and she was really feeling lonely and
out there alone, there was a woman in Toronto named
Vicky Taylor who took her in and was really kind
(16:03):
of supportive of Joni when they were both kind of
waitresses working at a club called The Penny Farthing and
Vicky Taylor. When Jonie was pregnant, Vicky Taylor took her
to an audition for a comedy show and gave Jonie
her audition spot, and Joni auditioned for the show and
(16:25):
they for the Christmas show and they accepted her, but
Jonie had to tell him that she was pregnant and
so she would be showing by the time they were
doing the Christmas show. And so the men that were
producing this show all gathered together and talked about her,
(16:46):
like twenty feet away and we're making gestures like over
around belly, like she's going to be pregnant, she's going
to be too big. And then they come over and
blow her off the show, and Vicky Taylor is there
to kind of like help her and be a roommate
and console her. And Vicky Taylor is Neil Young's girlfriend,
(17:09):
this young songwriter that hasn't made it that has just
started writing songs, and one of the songs that Vicky
Taylor plays for Joni is, Oh, here's my boyfriend. I
think you might have met him briefly in Winnipeg. It's
a song called Sugar Mountain that he wrote about being
too old, you know, at twenty. You know, so now
(17:30):
he's not a teenager anymore, so he feels like an
old man at twenty. And here's this song that he wrote,
Sugar Mountain, and the song stays with Joni, who then
writes Circle Game as an answer to Sugar Mountain. And
it's all because of this this beautiful woman who was
kind to Jony and took her in named Vicky Taylor.
(17:51):
So I can't wait to like hopefully get a hold
of Neil Young and say, like, tell me memories of
Vicky Taylor and see what he says, because here's an
amazing thing about Vicky Taylor, and it's it's it's kind
of a statement about some of the characters in the
Joni movie, people that you never heard of. But here
(18:13):
is this person at a crossroads that really changes your life.
The other thing Vicky Taylor does is introduces her to
another focusinger, Chuck Mitchell, who's passing through Toronto, who then
ends up getting married to Jonie for better or worse.
But Vicky Taylor in the exodus to go to Laurel Canyon,
(18:35):
Vicky Taylor stays behind in Toronto, makes a choice in
her life to stay in Toronto. And Vicky Taylor has
passed away, but she did an interview a couple of
years ago before she died, and she said she was
not feeling strong enough emotionally to make the trip from
Toronto to Laurel Canyon. But she always had a regret
(18:59):
that she didn't make the trip to Laurel Canyon because
what might have happened to Vicky Taylor made it to
Laurel Canyon. You know, she might have met Mama Cass,
she might have met David Crosby, she might have had
her career champions. She could have been Michelle Phillips and
the Mama's in the popp you know what I mean.
It's like, it's so fascinating how these people pass through
(19:20):
your lives and sometimes accompany you all the way, and
sometimes they're just there for a short, beautiful crossroads moment.
But here was Neil Young's girlfriend, Vicky Taylor, that passes
his song between herself and another between Neil and another artist,
and look at what happened. Circle Game ends up being
(19:41):
the song that Jonie plays at Newport that claims the
crowd boom, she's off and running. So, you know, I
think the movie, you know, to go to go on
a long journey of a rap here. The movie hopefully
can celebrate the Vicky Taylors as well as the David Crosby's.
You know, it's it's really cool to tell a person's story,
(20:05):
and hopefully Neil Young is still being alive, can tell
us a little bit more about Vicky Taylor as Jonie
said she had, she had she remembered about the apartment
that they shared that Vicky Taylor had like Indian throw
rugs and also a cat that pooped in the bathtub.
We live for the details.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So how's it coming in terms of like what's what's
the timeline to shoot and all that.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
You know, as soon as possible, we're a little we're
a little behind schedule as stage as you know, we
have we have our own little crossroads coming up. You
got some pages. We gotta have a little session with
that stuff. But yeah, we got to cast some of
the main parts and some of the smaller parts. We
know who we're gonna we're gonna use, and uh, I
(20:55):
don't know most most importantly, I think we have the
tone and the spirit right, and so now we just
get get a sponsor and we make it. We're close.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
I love that too. It's funny. We were just interviewing
yesterday or Tuesday. Say, now we're talking to Joela Dukun
do you know her? The singer amazing, but she's a
big Hendricks fan. And we were talking about it, and
there's a Hendricks quote that I've always loved. I always,
first of all, thought Hendricks was so underrated as a writer.
I think he's a writer, but he has this quote,
(21:34):
always love the story of love is Our story of
love is gonna low goodbye until we meet again. The
story of life is quicker than the wink of an eye.
I have loved that quote since I was a kid,
and like once I read it Barbara Bitzvah, which was
so precocious.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
But what you're talking about is perfect because it's true.
It's like you can't have a Joni story without the
Vicky Taylors.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah. There, It's it's just it's a we all have
a cast of characters, right, and it's like you can't
tell the story without that, the cast and it and
it you know, and then the life from their point
of view is a whole different story too. It's great
how it all intersects. I mean, good filmmaking, I think
(22:21):
gives you that feeling of here, here's the flow of life,
and here's what it feels to feel alive and turn
and meet somebody for the first time, and your life's
gonna change. And I think that should never stop being
the case. You know, you introducing me to on an
East being a case in point. You know, it's like
(22:42):
you you never should be so set that you can't
be open to where the current might take you. You guys,
you guys talk about this a lot in your in
your conversations. I'm sure because you're you guys are both
so creatively and spiritually open to all of this stuff.
(23:02):
It feels like, and that's a great thing. Yeah, I
mean I'm wrong, you know, I could be wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
No, one hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
I think it's you know, I mean, we were just
talking about next Tuesday is two years to when we
met just randomly going to a show, and now we're
doing a fucking podcast together.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Like who would have ever thought that? That's you know,
and that's what to me, what makes life fun.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Absolutely. Do you know people that are scared of that
and stay home and don't seek those experiences. I feel
like there's a whole other world.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I like to think of life as the universe and
this construct that we live in, and it's fun to
play in between those worlds. And I think when you're
talking about where it's like essence and tone, I wanted
to go back to to when you said that you
really discovered the essence and tone of Joni. I feel
like that can be applied to so many things in life.
(24:12):
It's like, what is essence and tone? I think it's
the marriage of both of those things coming together, the
universe and this life that man has created. And when
did you arrive at the essence and tone for this pick?
And what does that mean to you?
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, you can hear a joyful tone in the background
right now. You know, it's kind of it's she thanks
for the question, you know. She she for somebody that's
written so well about heartbreak and the deeper, you know,
challenges of life. She's got such a light spirit and
(24:54):
laughs so much that I think one of the one
the jobs of telling a biographical story is making somebody
feel like what it's like to know them, and you know,
there's there's a couple different ways of telling a biographical story.
(25:14):
You can be I don't know. You can be Aaron
Sorkin writing the Steve Jobs movie and you have your
concept of what Steve Jobs was like and you put
that forward and maybe Steve Jobs is a resource or
a source when he's making that movie or not. But
(25:37):
if if you're if the person that you're making a
biographical telling a biographical story about is an actual source
and is available to you, it's it's almost like you
have you have an opportunity to let people feel what
they're like when it's just you and that person. If
(25:59):
you who and that person were hanging out, what would
you sense? What would your front row seat be if
you had one? And let's say you're interested in Seeve Jobs,
or you're interested in Joni Mitchell, or you're interested in
Bruce Springsteen. You know, like, what what would it be
like to be just the two of you hanging out?
(26:22):
And that is what I wanted the Joni Mitchell movie
to feel like, like here, here is what it's like
to be with this artist that you're interested in, and
also give a sense of their spirit that's behind the
work that you may or may not know and appreciate.
(26:43):
So it's like she's got a light spirit, and so
you you should if you have the opportunity to, like
let that story have a light spirit, so you feel
like you're you're getting to know something special. The other
thing is to represent their work and get out of
the way, which is kind of like the Tom Petty
(27:05):
film for me rediscovering that, it's like, get out of
the way, let their work be felt, so that you
come to the you come to that project with a
feeling of why you loved them and live in that world.
And also your special gift is you get to see, like,
(27:25):
here's the person that made the stuff that you're interested in.
And then it's like if you can have a layer
of telling a story that's like interesting or truthful, then
then then you win the lottery of being able to
like put something out there where where it's not a
Wikipedia a living Wikipedia film. It's like, wow, this is
(27:51):
like a little special thing that I can share with
my friends who might have been interested in this person.
And and then then you're not making a movie or
telling a story about yourself. You're telling a story about
the opportunity, you had to introduce people to that person.
And that's kind of what I've tried to do in
(28:12):
our documentaries. And Steve, you were one of the guys
that got the best interview from David Crosby, so you
got a sense of what David Crosby was, Like, what
a what a charismatic, lively, crusty, funny, engaging guy. And
(28:32):
you know, we just wanted to like introduce you to
that guy. And you met him and you guys really clicked,
But like, can you do that on a general widespread basis?
Can you have everybody have the Steve Bolton David Crosby experience?
And that was what we tried to do in that documentary.
And now he's gone and we all thought he was
(28:55):
gonna live forever. But a friend of mine, a friend
aj Eaton, who directed that movie, dug into the footage
and got Crosby talking about Trump because he thought it
would be interesting. I guess to like to see Crosby
talking about Trump, and so like I saw a couple
of clips of Crosby talking about Trump and it was like,
(29:18):
you guys, it was like he stepped right out of
the ether and was as present as anything you could
imagine just talking about Trump in that David Crosby tone,
and that he was is a vivid guy. And I
think we caught him in that movie, and I was
(29:38):
able to be a part of that. So hopefully we
do that with Jony a little bit. Some people you
think you click with and then you find out they
gave the same interview to fifty other people. That's happened
a bunch. I guess Billy Wilder, the writer director, Billy Wilder,
(30:12):
who I started interviewing in his eighties, and he is
my directing, writing and directing hero, and he certainly, you know,
had done a number of interviews over the years and
had no real reason to click with me. He I
only met him because I went to his office and
get him to sign a poster and and he thought
(30:35):
I was, you know, a delivery boy. And I ended
up telling him that we were making a movie about
a sports agent and would he play a part, and
he he he kind of said yes, And I told
everybody that he was going to play a part in
our movie, Jerry Maguire, And then then I called him
(30:57):
on the day we were rehearsing, and he he didn't
remember saying yes, and he said like, why are you
bothering an old man? Why are you bothering an old man?
I'm going to piss ice water on you. I am
not an actor. Why are you bothering me? You find
an actor. I'm not an actor. I'm a writer. Why
are you bothering me? And you know I was I
(31:20):
was really disappointed. We ended up casting someone else.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
But.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
I wanted him to play Jerry Maguire's mentor, an older
agent named Dicky Fox. And you know, I was trying
to explain this to Billy Wilder and everything, and you know,
no chance, not a chance hung up on me. But
then the movie came out and the phone rang one
day and the color I d said Billy Wilder And
(31:49):
I answered the phone and he's like, hello, camero on.
I was like, yes, he goes, it's Billy Wilder. Who
is this man you gave my part two? You know?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (32:02):
It was a guy who was a you know, a
business affairs guy at the studio and I thought it
was gonna go. He was good. He was good. Listen,
I like your picture.
Speaker 6 (32:13):
Uh it was not as good as the Uh it
was not as good as some other picture. That I
see this year. But it's okay if you want to
come and interview me for your column. Uh uh, you
can come to my office and we can do we
can we can do that. But your film is not
as good as the Billy Bob Thornton picture.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
I'm like, uh, okay, I'll be I'll come to your
office and interview you from my column. I had no column.
I just went and I started interviewing him, and the
guy opened up, told me stories from his entire career,
and it became the book Conversations with Wilder, that I'm
completely proud of and it will always last as a
(32:58):
you know, one of the great great talents and an
inspiration to any writer director, a manual for how to
write and how to live your life and how to
have a career, and that you know, that came out
of nowhere. And this is a crusty guy, famously crusty guy.
You couldn't yeah, I mean, one of the funniest writers
(33:20):
ever to live. But I never saw him laugh except once,
and I actually was able to make him laugh. And
it was when Almost Famous was finished and I wanted
to show it to him, and he came to Fox
with his wife, Audrey Wilder, and he sat in this
(33:41):
big screening room, the only people there, and you know,
he was not a fan of rock music, and the
music was up loud, and the movie starts and I
was kind of nervous. I was about five or six
rows behind him, and a black Sabbath You Paranoid came
(34:01):
on in a concert scene where bands are floating into
the arena and he lifts his head up and he
goes tula and so ran back and turned it down.
And he was silent watching the whole movie. But then
it came to the part where Kate Hudson had been
(34:23):
sold for beer, and Patrick Hugo, who played the young
journalist part, says, who's you know? Is upset with her?
And he said, you know you you they sold you
for beer? And she kind of cries and then covers
(34:45):
with a little laugh and says what kind of beer?
And there's this sound that went up from Billy Wilder
that was kind of like, oh my god. He laughed,
and I cherished it like. I called Kate Hudson on
(35:07):
the way home and I was like, well, the impossible happened.
You made Billy Wilder laugh. I was your middleman but
you made him laugh and she was really excited and stuff.
But that was like the most unexpected connection, I think,
because there's no reason in the world that he would
want to open up to me for that book or
(35:30):
even as a as a friend. And it's a relationship
I cherish like daily.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
It's so funny. You would never think that he wouldn't
be a guy whoever left One two three is one
of the funniest fucking movie has ever.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Made big time, big time, Yeah, yeah, one.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
T three is just, you know, such an underrated film.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
I was like, well, you you know, we have this
choke you and me. Steve said, you know this well Steve.
Steve says he's reached the point where like when he
does an interview, you know, he's kind of into it's
what he's going to say. But he doesn't have a
list of questions. He just he just jams on the
spot like Coltrane. He just improvises and and like, I
(36:18):
really admire that, but I can't do it. And when
I listen to some of this interview with Billy Wilder,
I was so prepared. I had ten thousand questions and
I just you can hear me like shuffling pages and everything,
and you know, I guess sometimes that works, but sometimes
the best thing is to make sure it's a conversation,
(36:39):
which you know Coltrane here is really good at. But
you know, I got to learn to be free, man.
I gotta get off my music stand. I gotta I
gotta stop reading the notes and just play someday.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
It's really funny though, I'm trying to think if there's
anybody i'd beat that nervous to interview that I would.
I can understand, like for Billy Wilder, who's a hero
of yours, wanting to have questions spared.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
It just doesn't work for me.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
What if you were to interview Trump.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
I would rather stick fucking needles in my eyes, and
I've had needles stuck in my eyes. I would never
interview that man under any fucking circumstance. So now, really, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
You wouldn't want to go into the lions then and
see if you could slay it.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Now I'm not interested, because I just know I would.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
I mean, I would love to twenty sansos just asking
about Kamalo this morning. I would love to interview her.
I would love to interview Obama. But you know for
a principal factor, Now, I would never want to be
in the same fucking space as that piece of shit.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
See that that Like, I don't know, man, I just
I think there's a challenge there. When there's somebody like Obama. Obama,
you know, you're going to get a brilliant interview. You know,
he's going to be amazing. He's to speak in like
third drafts. He's going to tell you beautiful stuff. He's
going to be amazing. He's gonna be disarming, he's going
(38:07):
to know more about music than you expected to. It'll
be amazing. But what about like interviewing the devil? What
about like seeing.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
But there's no soul there, not going to get anything.
There's no soul. You're not going to get anything real.
You know, he's going to be contentious. It's the same thing,
just on the other side. He's not going to tell
you anything real.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
It's not like he's going to confess to stuff that's
not the interview is I'm personally interested.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Okay, I want to talk. I want to talk. I
want to talk about this with you stage forgive me.
Did you see the interview Trump did with the podcast? Guys? Yeah,
what was the name of that show.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I remember, it's like the Dude Show.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
When he wanted to he wanted to to like kind
of have a bro down podcast interview. Did you see
this stage?
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I haven't known.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
It's fascinating and I think they got one of the
very best interviews out of him because they're not contentious.
They're also not sucking up to him, but they're not contentious.
They gave him a comfortable space, and it's fascinating. He
(39:27):
talked about the weave and how he like goes off
topic and blah blah blah, but like, but this is
but this is what you do. You give artists a
safe space and people talk. People talk if you shut
up and let them talk. If one shuts up and listens,
(39:48):
they'll talk. Like I had to learn that really early on,
to not fill a silence with my own voice because
I'm feel nervous or awkward, and a lot of times
the silence is contentious. It feels contentious, but sometimes the
silence is them just trying to figure out what they're
(40:13):
gonna say, and if you shut up, they'll say it.
And this was kind of like those guys interviewing Trump.
I thought like, oh, this is good. This isn't truly
what it's like behind closed doors. Whatever you feel or
don't feel or don't care about. It's like it's a
glimpse of something real, even if the reality is big.
Speaker 4 (40:35):
But here's the thing for me personally. And then I want,
let's say it's shocked for a while because we've.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Been you know. But it's very interesting, like we have.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
You know.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
But I'm not interested in what he has to say
in the silence. I don't respect him.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
I don't give a shit, Like, for example, the first
time I brought a plant, he started telling me some
ridiculous story about we were talking. This is like early
two thousand and so, when remixes were popular. I asked
about the remix We're being Able going to leave you.
He told me a story about hearing it and that
Paul of Fold did. He told me a story about
hearing it in India.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
And then he.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
Started telling me this ridiculous story about marrying a woman
in India, very similar to Mellencamp, just not wanting to
do the interview, trying to throw me off. And I
said to him, I'm like, that's great, but what about this?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And he actually started laughing out loud, and he said, Wow,
you're really good. I hope they're paying you well to
talk to an old guy like me, and they completely
opened up. That's like, I love Robert Plant, so I
want that. But if Trump opens up to me, there
has to be uh, there's a principle and everything you do.
Speaker 4 (41:45):
I'm the same person who told the Grammys to fuck
off for three years until I wanted to take.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Safe at the show. Yeah, I got, that's just you know, like,
for example, I once interviewed Kid Rock and Jerry Lee
Lewis together. That was like putting a fucking gun to
your temple, No kidding, use brolliance. It was the night
they met and I interviewed them together for Rolling Stone.
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Wow, Well that's you know, that's great. Sometimes you have
to put your personal preferences up front.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
I guess, well, for me, I always do.
Speaker 4 (42:24):
So yeah, stage, what about you, Well, you could never
interview Trump.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
You won't be safe in a room with him. But
what about it?
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I mean, I think, I think it's truly fascinating to
see how you know, some even people that are as
learned and you know, learn it in the sense that
they've been in different parts of the world. How I'm
(42:50):
speaking on, you know, the debates between Kamala and Trump,
and I thought it was so fascinating. She to me,
is just like an incredible communicator, and to me, the
ability to communicate is just the most fascinating thing. And
the way that she's able to make an energy around
(43:12):
him that brings certain parts of him out, I think
is just so fascining to watch. And I have I
haven't seen anyone able to really do that to her.
I think she has this kind of other sense of
you know, it's like a it's like a sixth sense
of of what kind of tone somebody is trying to
(43:35):
put you in to bring parts of you out. And
I kind of side with you, Cameron that, you know,
although I would never want to really, I don't, you know,
I don't have much respect for what he would say.
I would like to try and make that tone. I
(43:56):
don't think I would have the skill. Maybe in a
couple decades, But you know, I think it's fascinating how
we're able to like draw things out of each other,
you know. I think we're so complex and we have
so much, so many layers, and somebody like Trump is
who knows what is hiding behind all of those closeted doors.
(44:19):
You know, a lot of attachment issues, a lot of
things like that. But yeah, I don't really have I
have much else to say, but I can imagine it's
fascinating to like look back on this Petty documentary and
like this was your first film, and how much your
(44:41):
your evolution of Tom Petty specifically, and like all these
different people that you've gotten to speak to, like how
that evolved, bridging.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Trump to this.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
It's just like it's amazing how things can evolve. And
just fact is so important and this is something that's
been lost, but also the openness to evolution is also important.
So I don't know, it's all just this nebulous thing
that I can't really put any language too.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
But I love what you're saying. It's like it's true,
we're all just like these complex buckets filled with like
all kinds of incredible stuff in there that we either
want to talk about or don't want to talk about.
But like the right thing can make you just say
(45:32):
a lot of stuff that's been buried deep inside but
you didn't even realize you wanted to say it. It's like,
I love the art of conversation and just talking to people.
And it's like when people say, like, oh, I could
never be a writer. Anybody can be a writer. All
lives are complex and fascinating, and it's just a matter
(45:54):
of like what key unlocks what stories or the comfort
and being able to talk about yourself. This is the
thing that that I kind of learned early on. Luckily
that there was I was supposed to do an article
on Rod Stewart, I remember, and Rod Stewart was kind
of like locked away in a dressing room or something
(46:17):
and like not being able to be interviewed at that point.
And I was kind of like a guy with a
tape recorder hanging around the San Diego Sports Arena, needing
to write a story about Rod Stewart. But there was
no Rod Stewart. So I started interviewing kids in the
parking lot and it was so great because everybody had
(46:39):
this is like Rod Stewart was like the biggest thing going,
you know, and so everybody had a story about how
they were able to like get the money, get the
ride by the time, who would go with you, who
said no? Who said yes? Who said yes? Just because
they wanted the tickets?
Speaker 7 (46:56):
It was like each person I interviewed was like this
corncopia of like great shit, and I just remember thinking, like, boy,
I want to write about the people in the parking lot.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
And it was. It was a big breakthrough because that's
clearly more important in so many ways than a guy
who's locked in a dressing rooms living in a luxurious life.
Although as fascinating as that is, Rod Stewart great music,
the kids in the parking lot became the thing that
(47:32):
I wanted to write about, and that turned into Fast
Times at ridgemont I, which is kind of why I'm
sitting here, because I just discovered that there are so
many wonderful stories if you just open up, you know.
And I was kind of a shy person at the time,
and it was easy to kind of hide in these
(47:53):
profiles of my heroes and stuff. But to like write
about people like me, we're more like me than the
people I was profiling, was really a breakthrough. And I'm
still kind of writing those stories, even if I'm still
doing profiles and documentaries and stuff. It's like it all
(48:14):
kind of comes from that moment, outside of outside of
the Rod Stewart Show in San Diego, you know.
Speaker 8 (48:30):
Well, it's so funny you say that's what led to
Fast Times A riginally high dude, that's literally the fucking
opening of almost famous.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
Do you see.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
Like, it's funny how these things subconsciously influence you and
you didn't even notice. But that'solutely patri if you get
standing outside at San Diego Sports are in a trying
to interview still are.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Yeah, it's true. I didn't even think about that, and
that's exactly where it happened too, as a matter of fact,
So until they tear down the sports Arena, I'll always
be able to go back there and search for the
next story.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Which is where we all saw spring scene.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
Yeah, man, it's really really true. There's something about that place,
funky as it always was, that kind of summons these
great shows.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Yeah, that's the forum for me having grown up in LA.
Speaker 4 (49:25):
But wait before we're gonna like run out of time again,
So we haven't even come onto the podcast question, which
is talk about your your giving back at how it
influences your.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Work, which aspect of that, my brother.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
You know, just in general of like giving back in
terms of well, it's interesting because we started with the
idea of philanthropy, but it's not based in philanthropy, like
we talk about what we've talked about with people. For example,
you know, even something like making Billy Wilder laugh and
almost famous is giving back your giving happiness to someone
(50:01):
who's by making the funniest.
Speaker 4 (50:03):
Movies of all time doesn't laugh. So giving back is
such a broad term. So giving like making people happy
was almost famous as your or fast Times or making
eighty seven hundred and twenty eight million people quote showing
me the money, which is a little annoying to be honest,
It's like that's giving back.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
It's giving back to the legsicon of popular culture.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
It's it's it's such a valuable thing to be focused
on and the different aspects of giving back. When when
you were just talking, I immediately went back to thinking
about my mom, who you know, was a college teacher,
(50:49):
college professor, also a council lead. And she I would
always come home from like you know, going to concerts
and things like that, and it would be late, and
she would be on the phone and she would she
would be in this big comfortable chair and uh it
(51:11):
would be the end of a long day obviously, and
she would be like uh huh uh huh uh huh.
But what did what did Anthony think about what you
told him?
Speaker 8 (51:25):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (51:25):
Huh uh huh. Now I want you to step back,
and I want you to consider that you made that
decision and how did that feel? And just like it's
cognitive therapy, think about it. And I realized, like my
mom had been counseling people deep into the night after
(51:46):
a full day of teaching and stuff. She had this
whole army of students and friends and people that needed
her advice. And I got to say, you guys, I
didn't hear them asking her about herself that much. They
needed to talk, they needed to spill because there was
(52:10):
no one in their life that was listening to them.
And my mom would talk to all these people and
would just like track all of their emotional nuances. And
to me, you know that that was something that really
imprinted on me because she was selfless, but I mean
(52:32):
there was in it, something in it for her because
she loved stories and she loved people. But what she
did was she really listened. And a lot of times
our friends will just go on and on and on
about their personal life and we kind of listen, but
we kind of don't, but we kind of do, but
we kind of know that they want to talk. My
mom tracked every nuance, you know, every nuance and would
(52:58):
walk them through the different degrees of emotion and stuff.
And I tell you all this because it's like, that's
quiet philanthropy. That's like a quiet version. That's a personal,
one to one crusade that she had. And I'll tell
you the effect. I'll tell you the effect. While she
(53:19):
was still alive, I would run into people and they
would be like, Cameron, is that you, Oh you're Alice's son.
I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, she goes, I recognize you. Okay,
tell Alice that Renee. You saw Renee? And Renee got
(53:41):
back together with Anthony and we had a child and
it all worked out. Would you tell her you saw Renee?
Oh this is so great? And I'd go home and
I would say I ran into Renee and my mom
would be like, I don't remember Renee, and I'm like
(54:02):
what she got back together with Anthony. My mom would
be like, there were a lot of Renees. And I'm like, cool, well,
you really did change her life and she wanted you
to know that. And so like now more time passed
and the play almost famous played in San Diego, our hometown.
She died a couple days before the first performance of
(54:24):
Almost Famous, and I would stand out in the courtyard
after the play was over, and it did really well,
and a lot of people came and they would find
me and they would say, where's Alice, Where's Alice? And
person after person after person would want to tell me
how she changed their lives. And she changed so many
(54:49):
lives one by one. And I always thought, like, the
best you can do in your life to give back
is to not just do these stories we're lucky and
have fun doing, but to listen to the people that
want to talk to us or need somebody to talk to,
(55:10):
and person by person, make them feel heard. And whether
there's so many of them that you don't even remember
what all the details were or not, Like that's a
way to make the world a little bit better because
you let people know that you listened. And that was
the lesson of my mom. Long after her death, she
(55:32):
was still changing lives and I'm a lot like her.
What can I say? I miss her?
Speaker 4 (55:43):
Well, you know that's so fascinating because it's funny. I
mean that ties in with what you always end up doing.
Did you worry you aware of the influence of your
mom had on you becoming a journalist, and of you know,
that's how you have to become successful as a journalists
is to, like you said, to be able to listen.
So if Robert Blant says to you, oh, you're funny,
(56:05):
you actually hear what I'm saying, you know, or Neil
Young opens up to you, it's because you're paying attention
and not just going in with a script a bunch
of questions where they're like, yeah, blah blah blah blah blah,
they're reading. They're fucking reading off the script too.
Speaker 3 (56:22):
It's true. And if there's an interesting thing that happens
when somebody knows that you're actually listening, you know, we
can we can stage. I'm sure you know this after
a show or something, or or at any point with
the musicians that you're working with, or any aspect of
your life, particularly in New York or LA or someplace
(56:44):
where everybody's looking to catch a break or make a break.
It's like a lot of times they're not even looking
at you. They're looking over your shoulder. Who's coming in
the door, who's more important, Who can I talk with?
Who is who who can I network with? And it's
it's kind of unnerving sometimes because you know, we don't
(57:07):
always feel listened to, but you do know the people
that you connect with and those are kind of the
people that get the best out of you and hopefully
vice versa. But yeah, it's it can be the world
of the entertainment business, et cetera can often be like
(57:32):
super connecting and somebody you can do work that like
make people really inspire and they really want to share
something with you, and that's amazing. And I don't know,
I used to I used to, you know, think that
somebody was just bullshitting me or something that they said
your work really changed my life or like I really
(57:52):
was affected by it. But a lot of it is
really true and I'm so grateful for it. But not
everybody's like that. Some people are just like looking to
waiting to speak themselves, you know. So I don't know,
it's just you You got to value a real conversation
and somebody that hears you, and that's I don't know,
(58:17):
that's kind of a daily quest.
Speaker 2 (58:21):
Well, I think you just have to appreciate them and
enjoy them.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Yeah, completely, Like this, I was just gonna say That's
why I love the irony of the question what are
you in service of? Because I think in the arts,
you know, music is service. The work that you do
with bringing people's stories to light, illuminate the shadow in
the light of these people that we look up to
(58:45):
and those that influence them like that is service. So
I just love the irony of it all.
Speaker 3 (58:52):
Well said, well said, good, you guys are doing you
guys are doing something great here.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
Well, we're having fun it so we are going to
run out of time again. Is there anything you want
to ask?
Speaker 3 (59:04):
I know, fantastic, It's fantastic to catch up a little
bit and to throw ideas back and forth. You guys
are very inspiring to spend a little time with. As
you know, I'm not the first to tell you this.
Speaker 2 (59:20):
If she's the most inspiring person I know.
Speaker 4 (59:23):
To me, I'm just like, I just have a lot
of cool stories because I know a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (59:29):
You got to give yourself a little more credit. But
that only happens because you're you playing, your playing your
cold trained instrument. Magic happens. That's Cora played. Actually
This week on in Service of we had the great
honor of speaking with Cameron Crowe, the incredible writer, director,
and journalist known for his deeply kind spirit and profound
storytelling ability. His love for communication and humanity is palpable.
We talk about process in the art of conversation and
the transformative power of truly listening.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
If you could live in any song, what song would
you live in?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I love Pete Townsend's stuff just because it's so atmospheric
and you're not unlike Joni. The words take you on
a journey and you have a feeling and you have
a spirit to it. And then also the words you
can key into the words when you up. But mostly
(01:01):
it casts a spell and uh I lately I've really
been missing listening to Pete Townsend his solo stuff, particularly
for that.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Is there one particular Pee Townsend song dubik.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I'd probably pick all the best Cowboys Have Chinese Eyes
the album, because those songs are all about kind of
like claiming your place in the world and your adulthood
in a way from a guy that was so eloquent
about teenage, you know, excitement and spirit and rebellion, like
(01:35):
he's able to address aging in an equally exciting and
thoughtful way. And also just I love his guitar play
what about You? What about You? What are you guys
listening to right now? Well?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
I finally got stage's out, though I've been on that
NonStop for the last three days.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Is it finished? Stage? It's all done?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
And uh spend many months, but I'm very excited and
happy that it's here. Yeah, And I've been listening to that,
and I don't know, I've been kind of going back
in time and listening to Sarah Vaughn and some of
the oldies. Whenever it's like gets into you know, fall,
(02:18):
getting into winter, I always like escape and hibernate back
into into that kind of music.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I know Faul is so great for that. What did
What do you think you learned from Larry Klein that
you didn't already know? You?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Just watching that man listen was such a treat, Like
I've never seen someone listen like the way he does.
I don't even think there's language to really encapsulate what
that's like. But there's this sixth sense that kind of
emerges around him that I feel like I can see
when he listens to something and he aside from listening
(03:01):
just watching him play, because he played some this on
the album as well. That's just a whole very strange,
very cool experience. And we shared that the love of
the words strange. We were always trying to like figure
out how to make things a little bit more strange.
And I just adore that about him, and it was
it was a real treat to watch that. I learned
(03:23):
so much in such a short amount of time.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Does he does he close his eyes when he listens?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
He closes his eyes and it seems like some other
I awakens around him.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah, that's so great people that listen memorably. It's an
art for him.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, what have you been listening to?
Speaker 4 (03:49):
Was really interesting to go back and revisit Tom Patty
because it's funny.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Petty is someone that I continually develop a new appreciation for,
even though I've seen him since, but probably the first
time was eighty four.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Wow. Why is it that he feels still somewhat underrated
even though everybody loves him?
Speaker 4 (04:12):
Probably because he was that good, but at the time
he was appreciated that way. I think he would like
to developed them definitely as he got older. You alsoid
he just became a better songwriter.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yeah, it's really true.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
I mean, if you ask me, and it's tough, you know,
because there's so many great petty songs.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
But I'm going crawling back to you to me. That's
in the top ten songs of all time.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
An amazing song, incredible, It is a perfect song. I
was trying to figure out when he pivoted and went
for kind of deeper water, because it it's hard to say,
because it wasn't. It wasn't like all of a sudden
he did his Nebraska and became like that guy. He
(05:00):
just kind of started well, it's in his first album,
like the Wild One Forever is a super introspective, deep,
kind of catcher in the rye kind of song. But
he didn't start going to his own roots and his
southern roots and all that stuff until later. But it
(05:22):
starts happening. It's like the water gets warmer and suddenly
suddenly it's heated.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well, he matured. He's very similar to me, to Dylan. Dylan,
I'd always amazed me that he could write a song
and I don't think twice.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
It's all Right, which is basically one of the biggest
fuck you songs of all time, and then writes, so
if you see her saylo, which is literally the most
sensitive song of all time, and Patty was similar, you
just get less angry as you get older. He wrote
a song like you Got Lucky, you know, which is
basically like you got lucky when you met me. And
then he goes to you the best of Everything, which
(05:56):
is like, wherever you are in the world, that was
you the best of everything.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Wow. Yeah, yeah, really well observed. It's really true. Huh
you just write fucky songs early? What are you doing
in my life? Stuff like that? Yeah, amazing, what a
great writer and worked hard at that stuff. He worked,
say just it's like an interesting thing like I always thought,
(06:22):
like so many of the great songs happened, you know,
like on the back of a napkin and a burst,
like you pick up the signal and you take it down,
and that's yesterday, Paul McCartney. You know, it's like but
Petty tells you that he had to work at that stuff,
and he would just be day in and day out.
(06:44):
You'd hear that rhythm of the song through the door
where he was working, and then like slowly more pieces
kind of came together, and then you know, finally, you
have a song that sounds effortless? Are you? Are? You?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Do?
Speaker 5 (07:00):
You have songs that arrived like in a rush, that
have equal value to the songs that took a long
time to make work, and vice versa.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
You know, this is what Steve and my favorite conversations
to have. How so many artists identify themselves as conduits
and it's just so fantastical.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
And so cool.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
But I think it's all about where the seeds were planted.
I think you can have the whole song arrive in
a moment, but the seed was planted years ago, and
sometimes the seeds need to be sown, and those songs
that could be just as special as the ones that
arrive like they just have to be worked on. But
(07:43):
I don't know. I think for me, it's my favorite
songs that I've written have happened in a short amount
of time. But I know that that the beginnings of
them perhaps started many, you know, maybe years ago inside
of me, and then they just kind of arrive. But
it's hard to.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
It's difficult. It's difficult. I can only imagine how like
crafting a song can be magical but also aggravating, because
I never I never understood that, like as a singer,
a singer can't sing every word, Like there are words
(08:23):
that some singers can't sing. And I never thought of
it that way. I just assume, like, oh, a great
singer can sing anything, but apparently like sometimes, and I
just realized it recently. It's like, you know, songwriters can
be like, oh, I can't sing that word generous. That
(08:45):
just doesn't sound good coming out of my mouth, you know,
But I can say this other word, you know. So
it's like, it's interesting how a word sings. It's something
that people take for granted, Like from the point of
view of a singer, you would know much more than
this than me because I can't sae. Well.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
I think everyone sings in their own ways, right, Like
I think the creative conduitness can be put onto any
form of creating. This is totally nerdy, but the root
of genius is Latin. To give birth, and any new
thing in this world you have to birth it, and
(09:25):
it takes hard work. And I'm sure you have had
this experience so many times when you have a moment
of divine inspiration where you've worked so hard and then
all of a sudden, it all clicks but I think
at the end of the day, it's really all one
and the same and we all just sing in our
own ways.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
That sounds right, That sounds really right.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
So for you, what were some of those moments of
divine inspiration? Like in a Joni film, there are moments
even when you're writing as opposed to singing, you write
something and you're just like, I'll go back and read
articles I wrote and be like, wait, that doesn't even
fucking sound like me. Where did that come from?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah, I've read some articles recently that's that felt exactly
like that, Like, wow, I was really like I was
really inspired about you know, Neil Young, I really had
some things to say. This is really fun to read
and it and I guess the gift of having done
(10:27):
stuff that you know, you can look back on thanks
to the Internet and everything pretty easily, is you can
you can look up like, oh, well, like around the
time of Russ Never Sleeps, like what what what was
going on in his life? Let me just check with
what he said in those interviews and stuff, And it's like,
(10:49):
how was I lucky enough to like ask the right
question to get this answer? And and also like people's
answers change over the years. So it's really good to
have stuff in kind of in real time at the
time that an artist you admire made the thing, because
(11:09):
it gets out into the world and there's a different
opinion that you have of it, or like people make
you think one thing is more important than the other,
or they've asked more about X, Y, and Z rather
than you know, RST in your catalog of work. But
it's like to see what they say when everything kind
of has equal value and they just did it. It's
(11:29):
fascinating and I was really I was really happy to
read some of that stuff. There's somebody's doing a Mojo
article on Neil Young in the seventies and there's really
good writer and he he had written about Tom Petty
and he said like, oh, I'm also doing this thing
about Neil Young in the seventies, Like could you talk
to me a little bit about some of the stuff
(11:50):
that happened when you were writing about him when you
were first getting started. So I went back and read
some of it, and like, I was blown away at
Neil's generosity talking about this stuff, and also like the
fire in him about needing to change and to always
be ahead of what the expectations were like his thing
(12:12):
as a younger guy was almost like he didn't know
if he was going to live a long time, because
his his thing was like I don't want to be
in the place where where people think I am when
when a new album comes out, I got to be
past it. I got to be somewhere else. And it
simultaneously was really inspiring, but also like I remember the
(12:36):
time when a new album was really important and it wasn't.
It wasn't something that was so easy to get because
it just dropped, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't like,
you know, my album dropped last weekend. It's like I
put out a new album. You know, I don't put
him out that much, and it's like an event and
(13:00):
and you know you have to like seek it out
and get it or a friend must have it and
you go over to your friend and listen to it
with your friend. So it was a glimpse of a
time when when like they were paintings that were appearing,
you know, in their own time and place and not
always often. You know. It's just like, I don't know,
(13:23):
it was exciting. It was exciting to read that stuff.
But he's an exciting artist.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Do you find though, that when you look at it,
it's not just reflective of what he said, but where
you were because what the passion was. And it's funny
you say, how'd you get lucky to ask the right question?
It matters how much you care about it too, So
it really depends on like you said, you know, having
the baby inspires creativity with you, like okay, perfect example.
(14:01):
I was talking to Paul t at Golden Voice the
other day because I was trying to get sage on Coachella,
and you know, Paul's a friend forever, and one of
the biggest compliments he ever paid me was the first
Desert trip, which.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
You know, Neil Young the World Place missed it.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
The first review they shared was mine, and I even
know Paul was going to share it, and afterwards I
asked him about it and he said, everybody said your
review best captured the essence of the event, which is
the biggest fucking compliment in the world, you know, And
we were talking about them, and it's also because of
how much I cared about who I was there with
(14:39):
the event everything.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
So it's a mat huh.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
It It very much matters for you. So it's probably
interesting to go back and seeing because I'm sure there
were things that like, it gives you insight into where
you were too.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Wow, it's true. Well it's the communal experience, I mean.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Because Neil has to pick up on your energy. It's
funny because I've interviewed in an older Neil. I love Neil,
but Neil can be a dick in a good way.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Literally. There was one day we had an interview set
scheduled for a Thursday.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
He never called me. He's just like, I don't feel
like it. Calls me the next day. No apology, you
know nothing. It's just like, I'm Neil Young. I'll fucking
talk to you when I want to.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Wow. Wow, he was. I really want to interview him
about when he first met Jonie too, because they both
had polio. They both you know, are from like small
towns in Canada. They still have this warm relationship. And
(15:42):
when nobody else and this is the cool sequence in
the movie too, when when nobody else was being nice
to Jony particularly and she was really feeling lonely and
out there alone, there was a woman in Toronto named
Vicky Taylor who took her in and was really kind
(16:03):
of supportive of Joni when they were both kind of
waitresses working at a club called The Penny Farthing and
Vicky Taylor. When Jonie was pregnant, Vicky Taylor took her
to an audition for a comedy show and gave Jonie
her audition spot, and Joni auditioned for the show and
(16:25):
they for the Christmas show and they accepted her, but
Jonie had to tell him that she was pregnant and
so she would be showing by the time they were
doing the Christmas show. And so the men that were
producing this show all gathered together and talked about her,
(16:46):
like twenty feet away and we're making gestures like over
around belly, like she's going to be pregnant, she's going
to be too big. And then they come over and
blow her off the show, and Vicky Taylor is there
to kind of like help her and be a roommate
and console her. And Vicky Taylor is Neil Young's girlfriend,
(17:09):
this young songwriter that hasn't made it that has just
started writing songs, and one of the songs that Vicky
Taylor plays for Joni is, Oh, here's my boyfriend. I
think you might have met him briefly in Winnipeg. It's
a song called Sugar Mountain that he wrote about being
too old, you know, at twenty. You know, so now
(17:30):
he's not a teenager anymore, so he feels like an
old man at twenty. And here's this song that he wrote,
Sugar Mountain, and the song stays with Joni, who then
writes Circle Game as an answer to Sugar Mountain. And
it's all because of this this beautiful woman who was
kind to Jony and took her in named Vicky Taylor.
(17:51):
So I can't wait to like hopefully get a hold
of Neil Young and say, like, tell me memories of
Vicky Taylor and see what he says, because here's an
amazing thing about Vicky Taylor, and it's it's it's kind
of a statement about some of the characters in the
Joni movie, people that you never heard of. But here
(18:13):
is this person at a crossroads that really changes your life.
The other thing Vicky Taylor does is introduces her to
another focusinger, Chuck Mitchell, who's passing through Toronto, who then
ends up getting married to Jonie for better or worse.
But Vicky Taylor in the exodus to go to Laurel Canyon,
(18:35):
Vicky Taylor stays behind in Toronto, makes a choice in
her life to stay in Toronto. And Vicky Taylor has
passed away, but she did an interview a couple of
years ago before she died, and she said she was
not feeling strong enough emotionally to make the trip from
Toronto to Laurel Canyon. But she always had a regret
(18:59):
that she didn't make the trip to Laurel Canyon because
what might have happened to Vicky Taylor made it to
Laurel Canyon. You know, she might have met Mama Cass,
she might have met David Crosby, she might have had
her career champions. She could have been Michelle Phillips and
the Mama's in the popp you know what I mean.
It's like, it's so fascinating how these people pass through
(19:20):
your lives and sometimes accompany you all the way, and
sometimes they're just there for a short, beautiful crossroads moment.
But here was Neil Young's girlfriend, Vicky Taylor, that passes
his song between herself and another between Neil and another artist,
and look at what happened. Circle Game ends up being
(19:41):
the song that Jonie plays at Newport that claims the
crowd boom, she's off and running. So, you know, I
think the movie, you know, to go to go on
a long journey of a rap here. The movie hopefully
can celebrate the Vicky Taylors as well as the David Crosby's.
You know, it's it's really cool to tell a person's story,
(20:05):
and hopefully Neil Young is still being alive, can tell
us a little bit more about Vicky Taylor as Jonie
said she had, she had she remembered about the apartment
that they shared that Vicky Taylor had like Indian throw
rugs and also a cat that pooped in the bathtub.
We live for the details.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So how's it coming in terms of like what's what's
the timeline to shoot and all that.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
You know, as soon as possible, we're a little we're
a little behind schedule as stage as you know, we
have we have our own little crossroads coming up. You
got some pages. We gotta have a little session with
that stuff. But yeah, we got to cast some of
the main parts and some of the smaller parts. We
know who we're gonna we're gonna use, and uh, I
(20:55):
don't know most most importantly, I think we have the
tone and the spirit right, and so now we just
get get a sponsor and we make it. We're close.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
I love that too. It's funny. We were just interviewing
yesterday or Tuesday. Say, now we're talking to Joela Dukun
do you know her? The singer amazing, but she's a
big Hendricks fan. And we were talking about it, and
there's a Hendricks quote that I've always loved. I always,
first of all, thought Hendricks was so underrated as a writer.
I think he's a writer, but he has this quote,
(21:34):
always love the story of love is Our story of
love is gonna low goodbye until we meet again. The
story of life is quicker than the wink of an eye.
I have loved that quote since I was a kid,
and like once I read it Barbara Bitzvah, which was
so precocious.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
But what you're talking about is perfect because it's true.
It's like you can't have a Joni story without the
Vicky Taylors.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah. There, It's it's just it's a we all have
a cast of characters, right, and it's like you can't
tell the story without that, the cast and it and
it you know, and then the life from their point
of view is a whole different story too. It's great
how it all intersects. I mean, good filmmaking, I think
(22:21):
gives you that feeling of here, here's the flow of life,
and here's what it feels to feel alive and turn
and meet somebody for the first time, and your life's
gonna change. And I think that should never stop being
the case. You know, you introducing me to on an
East being a case in point. You know, it's like
(22:42):
you you never should be so set that you can't
be open to where the current might take you. You guys,
you guys talk about this a lot in your in
your conversations. I'm sure because you're you guys are both
so creatively and spiritually open to all of this stuff.
(23:02):
It feels like, and that's a great thing. Yeah, I
mean I'm wrong, you know, I could be wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
No, one hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
I think it's you know, I mean, we were just
talking about next Tuesday is two years to when we
met just randomly going to a show, and now we're
doing a fucking podcast together.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Like who would have ever thought that? That's you know,
and that's what to me, what makes life fun.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Absolutely. Do you know people that are scared of that
and stay home and don't seek those experiences. I feel
like there's a whole other world.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I like to think of life as the universe and
this construct that we live in, and it's fun to
play in between those worlds. And I think when you're
talking about where it's like essence and tone, I wanted
to go back to to when you said that you
really discovered the essence and tone of Joni. I feel
like that can be applied to so many things in life.
(24:12):
It's like, what is essence and tone? I think it's
the marriage of both of those things coming together, the
universe and this life that man has created. And when
did you arrive at the essence and tone for this pick?
And what does that mean to you?
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, you can hear a joyful tone in the background
right now. You know, it's kind of it's she thanks
for the question, you know. She she for somebody that's
written so well about heartbreak and the deeper, you know,
challenges of life. She's got such a light spirit and
(24:54):
laughs so much that I think one of the one
the jobs of telling a biographical story is making somebody
feel like what it's like to know them, and you know,
there's there's a couple different ways of telling a biographical story.
(25:14):
You can be I don't know. You can be Aaron
Sorkin writing the Steve Jobs movie and you have your
concept of what Steve Jobs was like and you put
that forward and maybe Steve Jobs is a resource or
a source when he's making that movie or not. But
(25:37):
if if you're if the person that you're making a
biographical telling a biographical story about is an actual source
and is available to you, it's it's almost like you
have you have an opportunity to let people feel what
they're like when it's just you and that person. If
(25:59):
you who and that person were hanging out, what would
you sense? What would your front row seat be if
you had one? And let's say you're interested in Seeve Jobs,
or you're interested in Joni Mitchell, or you're interested in
Bruce Springsteen. You know, like, what what would it be
like to be just the two of you hanging out?
(26:22):
And that is what I wanted the Joni Mitchell movie
to feel like, like here, here is what it's like
to be with this artist that you're interested in, and
also give a sense of their spirit that's behind the
work that you may or may not know and appreciate.
(26:43):
So it's like she's got a light spirit, and so
you you should if you have the opportunity to, like
let that story have a light spirit, so you feel
like you're you're getting to know something special. The other
thing is to represent their work and get out of
the way, which is kind of like the Tom Petty
(27:05):
film for me rediscovering that, it's like, get out of
the way, let their work be felt, so that you
come to the you come to that project with a
feeling of why you loved them and live in that world.
And also your special gift is you get to see, like,
(27:25):
here's the person that made the stuff that you're interested in.
And then it's like if you can have a layer
of telling a story that's like interesting or truthful, then
then then you win the lottery of being able to
like put something out there where where it's not a
Wikipedia a living Wikipedia film. It's like, wow, this is
(27:51):
like a little special thing that I can share with
my friends who might have been interested in this person.
And and then then you're not making a movie or
telling a story about yourself. You're telling a story about
the opportunity, you had to introduce people to that person.
And that's kind of what I've tried to do in
(28:12):
our documentaries. And Steve, you were one of the guys
that got the best interview from David Crosby, so you
got a sense of what David Crosby was, Like, what
a what a charismatic, lively, crusty, funny, engaging guy. And
(28:32):
you know, we just wanted to like introduce you to
that guy. And you met him and you guys really clicked,
But like, can you do that on a general widespread basis?
Can you have everybody have the Steve Bolton David Crosby experience?
And that was what we tried to do in that documentary.
And now he's gone and we all thought he was
(28:55):
gonna live forever. But a friend of mine, a friend
aj Eaton, who directed that movie, dug into the footage
and got Crosby talking about Trump because he thought it
would be interesting. I guess to like to see Crosby
talking about Trump, and so like I saw a couple
of clips of Crosby talking about Trump and it was like,
(29:18):
you guys, it was like he stepped right out of
the ether and was as present as anything you could
imagine just talking about Trump in that David Crosby tone,
and that he was is a vivid guy. And I
think we caught him in that movie, and I was
(29:38):
able to be a part of that. So hopefully we
do that with Jony a little bit. Some people you
think you click with and then you find out they
gave the same interview to fifty other people. That's happened
a bunch. I guess Billy Wilder, the writer director, Billy Wilder,
(30:12):
who I started interviewing in his eighties, and he is
my directing, writing and directing hero, and he certainly, you know,
had done a number of interviews over the years and
had no real reason to click with me. He I
only met him because I went to his office and
get him to sign a poster and and he thought
(30:35):
I was, you know, a delivery boy. And I ended
up telling him that we were making a movie about
a sports agent and would he play a part, and
he he he kind of said yes, And I told
everybody that he was going to play a part in
our movie, Jerry Maguire, And then then I called him
(30:57):
on the day we were rehearsing, and he he didn't
remember saying yes, and he said like, why are you
bothering an old man? Why are you bothering an old man?
I'm going to piss ice water on you. I am
not an actor. Why are you bothering me? You find
an actor. I'm not an actor. I'm a writer. Why
are you bothering me? And you know I was I
(31:20):
was really disappointed. We ended up casting someone else.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
But.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
I wanted him to play Jerry Maguire's mentor, an older
agent named Dicky Fox. And you know, I was trying
to explain this to Billy Wilder and everything, and you know,
no chance, not a chance hung up on me. But
then the movie came out and the phone rang one
day and the color I d said Billy Wilder And
(31:49):
I answered the phone and he's like, hello, camero on.
I was like, yes, he goes, it's Billy Wilder. Who
is this man you gave my part two? You know?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (32:02):
It was a guy who was a you know, a
business affairs guy at the studio and I thought it
was gonna go. He was good. He was good. Listen,
I like your picture.
Speaker 6 (32:13):
Uh it was not as good as the Uh it
was not as good as some other picture. That I
see this year. But it's okay if you want to
come and interview me for your column. Uh uh, you
can come to my office and we can do we
can we can do that. But your film is not
as good as the Billy Bob Thornton picture.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
I'm like, uh, okay, I'll be I'll come to your
office and interview you from my column. I had no column.
I just went and I started interviewing him, and the
guy opened up, told me stories from his entire career,
and it became the book Conversations with Wilder, that I'm
completely proud of and it will always last as a
(32:58):
you know, one of the great great talents and an
inspiration to any writer director, a manual for how to
write and how to live your life and how to
have a career, and that you know, that came out
of nowhere. And this is a crusty guy, famously crusty guy.
You couldn't yeah, I mean, one of the funniest writers
(33:20):
ever to live. But I never saw him laugh except once,
and I actually was able to make him laugh. And
it was when Almost Famous was finished and I wanted
to show it to him, and he came to Fox
with his wife, Audrey Wilder, and he sat in this
(33:41):
big screening room, the only people there, and you know,
he was not a fan of rock music, and the
music was up loud, and the movie starts and I
was kind of nervous. I was about five or six
rows behind him, and a black Sabbath You Paranoid came
(34:01):
on in a concert scene where bands are floating into
the arena and he lifts his head up and he
goes tula and so ran back and turned it down.
And he was silent watching the whole movie. But then
it came to the part where Kate Hudson had been
(34:23):
sold for beer, and Patrick Hugo, who played the young
journalist part, says, who's you know? Is upset with her?
And he said, you know you you they sold you
for beer? And she kind of cries and then covers
(34:45):
with a little laugh and says what kind of beer?
And there's this sound that went up from Billy Wilder
that was kind of like, oh my god. He laughed,
and I cherished it like. I called Kate Hudson on
(35:07):
the way home and I was like, well, the impossible happened.
You made Billy Wilder laugh. I was your middleman but
you made him laugh and she was really excited and stuff.
But that was like the most unexpected connection, I think,
because there's no reason in the world that he would
want to open up to me for that book or
(35:30):
even as a as a friend. And it's a relationship
I cherish like daily.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
It's so funny. You would never think that he wouldn't
be a guy whoever left One two three is one
of the funniest fucking movie has ever.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Made big time, big time, Yeah, yeah, one.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
T three is just, you know, such an underrated film.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
I was like, well, you you know, we have this
choke you and me. Steve said, you know this well Steve.
Steve says he's reached the point where like when he
does an interview, you know, he's kind of into it's
what he's going to say. But he doesn't have a
list of questions. He just he just jams on the
spot like Coltrane. He just improvises and and like, I
(36:18):
really admire that, but I can't do it. And when
I listen to some of this interview with Billy Wilder,
I was so prepared. I had ten thousand questions and
I just you can hear me like shuffling pages and everything,
and you know, I guess sometimes that works, but sometimes
the best thing is to make sure it's a conversation,
(36:39):
which you know Coltrane here is really good at. But
you know, I got to learn to be free, man.
I gotta get off my music stand. I gotta I
gotta stop reading the notes and just play someday.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
It's really funny though, I'm trying to think if there's
anybody i'd beat that nervous to interview that I would.
I can understand, like for Billy Wilder, who's a hero
of yours, wanting to have questions spared.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
It just doesn't work for me.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
What if you were to interview Trump.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
I would rather stick fucking needles in my eyes, and
I've had needles stuck in my eyes. I would never
interview that man under any fucking circumstance. So now, really, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
You wouldn't want to go into the lions then and
see if you could slay it.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Now I'm not interested, because I just know I would.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
I mean, I would love to twenty sansos just asking
about Kamalo this morning. I would love to interview her.
I would love to interview Obama. But you know for
a principal factor, Now, I would never want to be
in the same fucking space as that piece of shit.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
See that that Like, I don't know, man, I just
I think there's a challenge there. When there's somebody like Obama. Obama,
you know, you're going to get a brilliant interview. You know,
he's going to be amazing. He's to speak in like
third drafts. He's going to tell you beautiful stuff. He's
going to be amazing. He's gonna be disarming, he's going
(38:07):
to know more about music than you expected to. It'll
be amazing. But what about like interviewing the devil? What
about like seeing.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
But there's no soul there, not going to get anything.
There's no soul. You're not going to get anything real.
You know, he's going to be contentious. It's the same thing,
just on the other side. He's not going to tell
you anything real.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
It's not like he's going to confess to stuff that's
not the interview is I'm personally interested.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Okay, I want to talk. I want to talk. I
want to talk about this with you stage forgive me.
Did you see the interview Trump did with the podcast? Guys? Yeah,
what was the name of that show.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I remember, it's like the Dude Show.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
When he wanted to he wanted to to like kind
of have a bro down podcast interview. Did you see
this stage?
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I haven't known.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
It's fascinating and I think they got one of the
very best interviews out of him because they're not contentious.
They're also not sucking up to him, but they're not contentious.
They gave him a comfortable space, and it's fascinating. He
(39:27):
talked about the weave and how he like goes off
topic and blah blah blah, but like, but this is
but this is what you do. You give artists a
safe space and people talk. People talk if you shut
up and let them talk. If one shuts up and listens,
(39:48):
they'll talk. Like I had to learn that really early on,
to not fill a silence with my own voice because
I'm feel nervous or awkward, and a lot of times
the silence is contentious. It feels contentious, but sometimes the
silence is them just trying to figure out what they're
(40:13):
gonna say, and if you shut up, they'll say it.
And this was kind of like those guys interviewing Trump.
I thought like, oh, this is good. This isn't truly
what it's like behind closed doors. Whatever you feel or
don't feel or don't care about. It's like it's a
glimpse of something real, even if the reality is big.
Speaker 4 (40:35):
But here's the thing for me personally. And then I want,
let's say it's shocked for a while because we've.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Been you know. But it's very interesting, like we have.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
You know.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
But I'm not interested in what he has to say
in the silence. I don't respect him.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
I don't give a shit, Like, for example, the first
time I brought a plant, he started telling me some
ridiculous story about we were talking. This is like early
two thousand and so, when remixes were popular. I asked
about the remix We're being Able going to leave you.
He told me a story about hearing it and that
Paul of Fold did. He told me a story about
hearing it in India.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
And then he.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
Started telling me this ridiculous story about marrying a woman
in India, very similar to Mellencamp, just not wanting to
do the interview, trying to throw me off. And I
said to him, I'm like, that's great, but what about this?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And he actually started laughing out loud, and he said, Wow,
you're really good. I hope they're paying you well to
talk to an old guy like me, and they completely
opened up. That's like, I love Robert Plant, so I
want that. But if Trump opens up to me, there
has to be uh, there's a principle and everything you do.
Speaker 4 (41:45):
I'm the same person who told the Grammys to fuck
off for three years until I wanted to take.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Safe at the show. Yeah, I got, that's just you know, like,
for example, I once interviewed Kid Rock and Jerry Lee
Lewis together. That was like putting a fucking gun to
your temple, No kidding, use brolliance. It was the night
they met and I interviewed them together for Rolling Stone.
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Wow, Well that's you know, that's great. Sometimes you have
to put your personal preferences up front.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
I guess, well, for me, I always do.
Speaker 4 (42:24):
So yeah, stage, what about you, Well, you could never
interview Trump.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
You won't be safe in a room with him. But
what about it?
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I mean, I think, I think it's truly fascinating to
see how you know, some even people that are as
learned and you know, learn it in the sense that
they've been in different parts of the world. How I'm
(42:50):
speaking on, you know, the debates between Kamala and Trump,
and I thought it was so fascinating. She to me,
is just like an incredible communicator, and to me, the
ability to communicate is just the most fascinating thing. And
the way that she's able to make an energy around
(43:12):
him that brings certain parts of him out, I think
is just so fascining to watch. And I have I
haven't seen anyone able to really do that to her.
I think she has this kind of other sense of
you know, it's like a it's like a sixth sense
of of what kind of tone somebody is trying to
(43:35):
put you in to bring parts of you out. And
I kind of side with you, Cameron that, you know,
although I would never want to really, I don't, you know,
I don't have much respect for what he would say.
I would like to try and make that tone. I
(43:56):
don't think I would have the skill. Maybe in a
couple decades, But you know, I think it's fascinating how
we're able to like draw things out of each other,
you know. I think we're so complex and we have
so much, so many layers, and somebody like Trump is
who knows what is hiding behind all of those closeted doors.
(44:19):
You know, a lot of attachment issues, a lot of
things like that. But yeah, I don't really have I
have much else to say, but I can imagine it's
fascinating to like look back on this Petty documentary and
like this was your first film, and how much your
(44:41):
your evolution of Tom Petty specifically, and like all these
different people that you've gotten to speak to, like how
that evolved, bridging.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Trump to this.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
It's just like it's amazing how things can evolve. And
just fact is so important and this is something that's
been lost, but also the openness to evolution is also important.
So I don't know, it's all just this nebulous thing
that I can't really put any language too.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
But I love what you're saying. It's like it's true,
we're all just like these complex buckets filled with like
all kinds of incredible stuff in there that we either
want to talk about or don't want to talk about.
But like the right thing can make you just say
(45:32):
a lot of stuff that's been buried deep inside but
you didn't even realize you wanted to say it. It's like,
I love the art of conversation and just talking to people.
And it's like when people say, like, oh, I could
never be a writer. Anybody can be a writer. All
lives are complex and fascinating, and it's just a matter
(45:54):
of like what key unlocks what stories or the comfort
and being able to talk about yourself. This is the
thing that that I kind of learned early on. Luckily
that there was I was supposed to do an article
on Rod Stewart, I remember, and Rod Stewart was kind
of like locked away in a dressing room or something
(46:17):
and like not being able to be interviewed at that point.
And I was kind of like a guy with a
tape recorder hanging around the San Diego Sports Arena, needing
to write a story about Rod Stewart. But there was
no Rod Stewart. So I started interviewing kids in the
parking lot and it was so great because everybody had
(46:39):
this is like Rod Stewart was like the biggest thing going,
you know, and so everybody had a story about how
they were able to like get the money, get the
ride by the time, who would go with you, who
said no? Who said yes? Who said yes? Just because
they wanted the tickets?
Speaker 7 (46:56):
It was like each person I interviewed was like this
corncopia of like great shit, and I just remember thinking, like, boy,
I want to write about the people in the parking lot.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
And it was. It was a big breakthrough because that's
clearly more important in so many ways than a guy
who's locked in a dressing rooms living in a luxurious life.
Although as fascinating as that is, Rod Stewart great music,
the kids in the parking lot became the thing that
(47:32):
I wanted to write about, and that turned into Fast
Times at ridgemont I, which is kind of why I'm
sitting here, because I just discovered that there are so
many wonderful stories if you just open up, you know.
And I was kind of a shy person at the time,
and it was easy to kind of hide in these
(47:53):
profiles of my heroes and stuff. But to like write
about people like me, we're more like me than the
people I was profiling, was really a breakthrough. And I'm
still kind of writing those stories, even if I'm still
doing profiles and documentaries and stuff. It's like it all
(48:14):
kind of comes from that moment, outside of outside of
the Rod Stewart Show in San Diego, you know.
Speaker 8 (48:30):
Well, it's so funny you say that's what led to
Fast Times A riginally high dude, that's literally the fucking
opening of almost famous.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
Do you see.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
Like, it's funny how these things subconsciously influence you and
you didn't even notice. But that'solutely patri if you get
standing outside at San Diego Sports are in a trying
to interview still are.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Yeah, it's true. I didn't even think about that, and
that's exactly where it happened too, as a matter of fact,
So until they tear down the sports Arena, I'll always
be able to go back there and search for the
next story.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Which is where we all saw spring scene.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
Yeah, man, it's really really true. There's something about that place,
funky as it always was, that kind of summons these
great shows.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Yeah, that's the forum for me having grown up in LA.
Speaker 4 (49:25):
But wait before we're gonna like run out of time again,
So we haven't even come onto the podcast question, which
is talk about your your giving back at how it
influences your.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Work, which aspect of that, my brother.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
You know, just in general of like giving back in
terms of well, it's interesting because we started with the
idea of philanthropy, but it's not based in philanthropy, like
we talk about what we've talked about with people. For example,
you know, even something like making Billy Wilder laugh and
almost famous is giving back your giving happiness to someone
(50:01):
who's by making the funniest.
Speaker 4 (50:03):
Movies of all time doesn't laugh. So giving back is
such a broad term. So giving like making people happy
was almost famous as your or fast Times or making
eighty seven hundred and twenty eight million people quote showing
me the money, which is a little annoying to be honest,
It's like that's giving back.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
It's giving back to the legsicon of popular culture.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
It's it's it's such a valuable thing to be focused
on and the different aspects of giving back. When when
you were just talking, I immediately went back to thinking
about my mom, who you know, was a college teacher,
(50:49):
college professor, also a council lead. And she I would
always come home from like you know, going to concerts
and things like that, and it would be late, and
she would be on the phone and she would she
would be in this big comfortable chair and uh it
(51:11):
would be the end of a long day obviously, and
she would be like uh huh uh huh uh huh.
But what did what did Anthony think about what you
told him?
Speaker 8 (51:25):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (51:25):
Huh uh huh. Now I want you to step back,
and I want you to consider that you made that
decision and how did that feel? And just like it's
cognitive therapy, think about it. And I realized, like my
mom had been counseling people deep into the night after
(51:46):
a full day of teaching and stuff. She had this
whole army of students and friends and people that needed
her advice. And I got to say, you guys, I
didn't hear them asking her about herself that much. They
needed to talk, they needed to spill because there was
(52:10):
no one in their life that was listening to them.
And my mom would talk to all these people and
would just like track all of their emotional nuances. And
to me, you know that that was something that really
imprinted on me because she was selfless, but I mean
(52:32):
there was in it, something in it for her because
she loved stories and she loved people. But what she
did was she really listened. And a lot of times
our friends will just go on and on and on
about their personal life and we kind of listen, but
we kind of don't, but we kind of do, but
we kind of know that they want to talk. My
mom tracked every nuance, you know, every nuance and would
(52:58):
walk them through the different degrees of emotion and stuff.
And I tell you all this because it's like, that's
quiet philanthropy. That's like a quiet version. That's a personal,
one to one crusade that she had. And I'll tell
you the effect. I'll tell you the effect. While she
(53:19):
was still alive, I would run into people and they
would be like, Cameron, is that you, Oh you're Alice's son.
I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, she goes, I recognize you. Okay,
tell Alice that Renee. You saw Renee? And Renee got
(53:41):
back together with Anthony and we had a child and
it all worked out. Would you tell her you saw Renee?
Oh this is so great? And I'd go home and
I would say I ran into Renee and my mom
would be like, I don't remember Renee, and I'm like
(54:02):
what she got back together with Anthony. My mom would
be like, there were a lot of Renees. And I'm like, cool, well,
you really did change her life and she wanted you
to know that. And so like now more time passed
and the play almost famous played in San Diego, our hometown.
She died a couple days before the first performance of
(54:24):
Almost Famous, and I would stand out in the courtyard
after the play was over, and it did really well,
and a lot of people came and they would find
me and they would say, where's Alice, Where's Alice? And
person after person after person would want to tell me
how she changed their lives. And she changed so many
(54:49):
lives one by one. And I always thought, like, the
best you can do in your life to give back
is to not just do these stories we're lucky and
have fun doing, but to listen to the people that
want to talk to us or need somebody to talk to,
(55:10):
and person by person, make them feel heard. And whether
there's so many of them that you don't even remember
what all the details were or not, Like that's a
way to make the world a little bit better because
you let people know that you listened. And that was
the lesson of my mom. Long after her death, she
(55:32):
was still changing lives and I'm a lot like her.
What can I say? I miss her?
Speaker 4 (55:43):
Well, you know that's so fascinating because it's funny. I
mean that ties in with what you always end up doing.
Did you worry you aware of the influence of your
mom had on you becoming a journalist, and of you know,
that's how you have to become successful as a journalists
is to, like you said, to be able to listen.
So if Robert Blant says to you, oh, you're funny,
(56:05):
you actually hear what I'm saying, you know, or Neil
Young opens up to you, it's because you're paying attention
and not just going in with a script a bunch
of questions where they're like, yeah, blah blah blah blah blah,
they're reading. They're fucking reading off the script too.
Speaker 3 (56:22):
It's true. And if there's an interesting thing that happens
when somebody knows that you're actually listening, you know, we
can we can stage. I'm sure you know this after
a show or something, or or at any point with
the musicians that you're working with, or any aspect of
your life, particularly in New York or LA or someplace
(56:44):
where everybody's looking to catch a break or make a break.
It's like a lot of times they're not even looking
at you. They're looking over your shoulder. Who's coming in
the door, who's more important, Who can I talk with?
Who is who who can I network with? And it's
it's kind of unnerving sometimes because you know, we don't
(57:07):
always feel listened to, but you do know the people
that you connect with and those are kind of the
people that get the best out of you and hopefully
vice versa. But yeah, it's it can be the world
of the entertainment business, et cetera can often be like
(57:32):
super connecting and somebody you can do work that like
make people really inspire and they really want to share
something with you, and that's amazing. And I don't know,
I used to I used to, you know, think that
somebody was just bullshitting me or something that they said
your work really changed my life or like I really
(57:52):
was affected by it. But a lot of it is
really true and I'm so grateful for it. But not
everybody's like that. Some people are just like looking to
waiting to speak themselves, you know. So I don't know,
it's just you You got to value a real conversation
and somebody that hears you, and that's I don't know,
(58:17):
that's kind of a daily quest.
Speaker 2 (58:21):
Well, I think you just have to appreciate them and
enjoy them.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Yeah, completely, Like this, I was just gonna say That's
why I love the irony of the question what are
you in service of? Because I think in the arts,
you know, music is service. The work that you do
with bringing people's stories to light, illuminate the shadow in
the light of these people that we look up to
(58:45):
and those that influence them like that is service. So
I just love the irony of it all.
Speaker 3 (58:52):
Well said, well said, good, you guys are doing you
guys are doing something great here.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
Well, we're having fun it so we are going to
run out of time again. Is there anything you want
to ask?
Speaker 3 (59:04):
I know, fantastic, It's fantastic to catch up a little
bit and to throw ideas back and forth. You guys
are very inspiring to spend a little time with. As
you know, I'm not the first to tell you this.
Speaker 2 (59:20):
If she's the most inspiring person I know.
Speaker 4 (59:23):
To me, I'm just like, I just have a lot
of cool stories because I know a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (59:29):
You got to give yourself a little more credit. But
that only happens because you're you playing, your playing your
cold trained instrument. Magic happens. That's Cora played. Actually
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