February 18, 2022 • 46 mins
Frontman Dave Le'aupepe and bassist Max Dunn open up about the false starts, writer's block and personal grief that went into the band's ambitious third album, 'Angel in Realtime.' Inspired by the death of Le'aupepe's father, the album is a meditation on god, grief and growth, drawing musical textures from his Samoan heritage, as well as English drum and bass, and stripped back American folk.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Studio on iHeart Radio. My name is Jordan run Tug,
but enough about me. My guest today are members of
one of Australia's biggest bands. They've slowly but surely mounted
their musical assault on this hemisphere with the help of
two stellar records, The Positions and Go Farther in Lightness.
(00:24):
Their latest album, Angel in Real Time, is the result
of nearly five years of intense workshopping, numerous false starts,
serious case of writer's block, and one immense personal loss.
It's a monument of frontman Dave Leo Pepe's late father,
who died of cancer, and the song cycle finds him
coming to terms with the life milestone and contemplating the
(00:46):
loneliness of his passing juxtaposed with the comfort and peace
that often comes. And I Loved One transcends this reality
and into another. To paraphrase the group's own description, Angel
in Real Time is a meditation on the meaning of death,
grief and God, and also a nod to the London
neighborhood of Angel that served as the band's home base.
(01:07):
It's also a celebration of Dave's own Samoan heritage. The
record is packed with refluences and recordings of indigenous music
of the South Pacific, in addition to sounds of modern classical,
English drummond bass, and American folk. Angel in Real Time
is a highly ambitious work of creative and personal growth,
and it was well worth the way. I'm so happy
(01:28):
to welcome Dave, Leo Pepe and Max Dunn of Gang
of Youths. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Just to
kick it off, I mean, I I just want to
offer you, guys, oh well deserved congratulations and thank you
for Angel and Real Time. I mean, I know you've
(01:48):
been working on it for for several years now, and
I think I'm right and saying you recorded it three
different versions of it. I mean, how did you know
it was done? How did you know you had it
where you wanted it? Finally, it was when the labels said,
all right, the major label dead. That's the honest. So
your first for warners, right, Yeah, so yeah, it's it's um,
(02:11):
it's weird lot our experiences labels is kind of more
synonymous of how they experienced it, probably in the nineties
when they had Googles and money and credit cards and
credit cards, but like Cartel wrought cocaine, um, that kind
of But they've been really permissive with us and really
really even temp and cool with us, you know, which
is you know, not the stereotype of most major labels.
(02:34):
And honestly, we stay in the business, they stay out out.
The Warned team here in the UK are unbelievable. The
American team are really really really great, super supported, unbelieving
as well. So it's been kind of like that. But
they were like, listen, it's been two fucking years, stop
passing around and get it done. Um. So that's kind
of what we had to know. And I think there
was as well, Yeah, because Max had a kid and
(02:56):
you know, it's the whole thing. But I think it
was a lot understanding that we had said everything that
we wanted to say in the best way, ah possible,
and it was and it was beautiful. We all found
it beautiful. And we keep sucking using this word today
that it's this idea of something that felt beautiful. And
I was saying before and I'll say now, this is
(03:18):
the first time in my career I felt um, but
I don't absolutely hate something, just hate it a little
bit this is a fucking miracle for me. But Mars
like it. But I think it's I think it's stunning. Man.
Like I think, you know, because we made so much
bad ship, well not even bad but just non right ship,
(03:38):
that it really does feel like, um, really cool. And
it was like so free and um, it was fucking hard,
Like obviously we were going insane. It's at seven points
of like two years during lockdown and a room. Um,
but I just mean it was like it was, yeah,
everything that you know Dave's probably wanted in terms of
(04:02):
influences in the past that had been too weird or
too like whatever, and you know, we were able to
throw ourselves into that and all our different backgrounds and
kind of just come up with something really beautiful and
weird and like that, I felt like it was the
right thing for who we are now, which is really cool.
I feel like you only know you only you know
(04:26):
when you've arrived, when you arrived, like it was sort
of you just got there and it got to the
last track being done, kind of the scaffolding of it,
and I think we just kind of paused and said,
I think we're about nearly really there or winners, Um,
some lares. Yeah, And it was interesting because like at
the at the outset of the of the whole fucking album,
(04:51):
right when we first started working, when I first started working,
I knew it would be a title pain to get done.
It would be a lot of late though. It's a
lot of travel, a lot of money spent to get
the sound that we wanted, the size of the of
the string ensemble that we wanted, um, you know, to
(05:11):
pay the musicians correctly, um, to to appropriately distribute admiralties
to the rights holders of not only the recordings of
the samples that we've used by David Fanshaw, but also
the people who performed that trying to find ways so
we understood there would be a lot that went into it.
So I think once that stuff was kind of ironed out, um,
(05:33):
and we've got we've got a sense of, um, what
the album was going to sound like mixed wise, because
we actually started mixing some of these songs before vocals
moveing on it. Because I hadn't finished the lyrics for
some things. Something has had lyrics for anyone the decades,
and other things just took a really long time. So
it was basically when the lyrics were done. Okay, the
(05:54):
album's done, gentlemen, our mate counts it. And also Peter
Cater who we can't forget, who was just sucking amazing.
He mixed Return Unison. But but people really really worked
against the clock on it. So the way I then,
especially count did so much work, massive, massive, massive gratitude,
(06:15):
the huge de on the tracks where you had the
the instrumental arrangements done but working on the lyrics. Did
you know what you wanted to say in those songs?
Was it a case of sitting down and working on
how to articulate it? Or did you sit with the
instrumental tracks and just think, where does this take me?
Right now? Where? What is you know? What is it
that uh this we feel? That's a good good question.
(06:35):
It was column I, column by I always have a
title of the song before I have lyrics UM, and
the title was just a placeholder that sparks some emotion
related to the song for me, or or a concept
with feeling UM. For the most part, man um. It
kind of works in different ways depending on the song.
(06:58):
If I'm if, if I have a it always starts
with the melody for me, weirdly UM. On this one,
it was it was all melodic and finding phrasing and
words that fit that, and then a mood to fit
the phrasing and words, and then trying to trying to
carve out shape of a contour of the themes or whatever.
(07:21):
I'm not someone who just kind of could just put
put out words. There's always a central nervous system, like
a like a some tripical motion that exists at the
nucleus of every song or whatever that propels it, that
gives it meaning and value to me, that make me
not want to fucking die every time we have to
perform the motherfucker, do you know what I mean? So
(07:41):
finding that meaning was the hard It was the hard basket,
you know what I mean. And for some songs like
The Kingdom Is Within You or You and Everything, the
meaning approach many of the lyrics they're kind of already
there um or or I had a tacit understanding of
where that song was going to go, Whereas like with
(08:02):
Full Bearance, I had an inkling of what I wanted
the sort of sound live, but kind of changed and
shifted and then it went back around to being what
it was about. Does that make sense? So it just
kind of depends on what song And I think for
bearans always had a strong malondic component that tied me
to emotions around that that were kind of like, you know,
(08:22):
synonymous with those melodies. Um, they kind of just fed itself.
I think you know, but that was a completed instrumental
sucking or list a year ago, which is wild. Mm hmm.
I think I read and I don't. I don't know.
Maybe a miss understood this that the project began with
the album's title. Did that more? I guess question one?
(08:44):
Is that true? And question too? How did that kind
of serve as sort of the uh, you know your
your your load, star, your your your you know your
guide throughout this? Um, I mean, Max do remember this,
but I just started working on this albumen where we
was living. It would just moved to London, m Jordan
(09:04):
loved and and there's Plankton day on Pettonville, Pettonville and Caledonian.
So that makes you answer looking for give you for that? Um,
um Haven'tville Caledonian. So that was rightly where we were made.
I can't even express to you how meaningful that neighborhood
is because we used to live in Holloway um On, Caledonia, Road.
(09:27):
What was that street Corporated station. So that was actually
where I wrote The Angel of my Dead Years, where
I started working on UM. When I started working on UM,
what what turned into Unison Tender Garden, A little bit,
A little bits are in there. UM. There's just a
lot of stuff I started working on there, and I
(09:49):
kind of I kind of had this vision of look
because I knew my dad wasn't well and he was sick.
I knew that one day I'd have to confront the
realities of my my heritage in his upbring and I
was like thinking about integrating some of that stuff. But
I knew I wanted to use samples gentlemen, and so
I feel like that was the genesis of where it started.
(10:11):
Angel brill Time, however, tied everything into a cohesive hole
for me that I came up with that album name
in two eighteen May. I was walking around Angel the
day that we found the house and we all lived in,
and I was always been with you, like like every
album with a there's a name a name. Before I
remember being told like we're gonna we should make a
(10:33):
father and lighting us now and been like okay, okay,
like whatever the funk that means, you know at the time,
which is a cool trade. Man. It's like it's cool
to have like a north Star. It's like a dude
in a band, Like yeah, it's it's weird because I
always think of I always think of like it's gonna
sound like the best pluck and pretensus bullshitever. But Thomas
(10:55):
Pensioned grabbed his rainbow. There's that thing about, um, you
never did the cannotion kid, And there's like six thousand
different And I used to follow Twitter account years ago.
That auto, that auto produces different grammatical variations that you
never did the cannotion kid. Now for people who grab
his rainbo, I don't want to sucking ruin it, but
(11:16):
it's just like it's, um, it's for me. The the
fluidity of that sentence is explored a lot, and not
in the in the in the book, but in the
fandom surrounding that. Hence why there's an order generated Twitter
that generates like new grammatical variations. Just a simple nonsensical
(11:40):
statement can have a lot of thematic weight depending on
its interpretation. And I like that there's like almost like
almost like plos use the term post structuralist. One of
my fucking professor in Boston at Harvard, right, one of
my sucking white collar professional Um, there's a sense of
(12:02):
like each word donating denating something else, And so I thought,
angel in real time, we'll live in Angel. My dad's
an angel real time. You know. I just all these
kind of images of contra up of this, this kind
of relatively banal, benign sort of phrase, And I love
how it's open interpretation to me but to others, but
(12:23):
it meant something to me. Someone go farther in lightness?
What the fuck is go farther? Why that word? Why
up further? Why lightness? What is likeness? You know? I like.
I like the idea of the English language being poised
for interpretation always any given time, and a collection of
you like the positions I mean I was using as
a reference in Lennon Cohen's Various Positions, but it could
(12:45):
also mean the positions on a football pictures that I
think there's I think there's so much fluidity. So if
I just come up with words that sound beautiful and
they suggest something, they imply meaning that it perhaps fucking
potentially something will come from it, Like if there will
be blood? Do you know what I mean? Chunking express
(13:05):
Do you know what I'm saying? Like? I like the
ideas that so much, almost like Louis Carroll. Yeah, it's
all whimsy and bullshit, but to me, it makes them
fucking conceptual. But but that's how I started everything. I
feel like a title cinematic and it helps me derive
meeting and shape and ark without having to do too
(13:26):
much groundwork. You know, it's all about the big picture
type stuff in the initial stages and planning record. How
do you feel about I feel like there's sort of
two schools of thought with with artists being asked about
their lyrics. There are some who who will dive right
in and almost treat it like a diary and tell
you, you you know, what they were feeling where these came from.
And then there are others who are you know, prefer
(13:47):
to be a little more vague and really want to
leave it open to interpretation and open to, you know,
people to bring their own twist to it. How do
you feel about that? How do you feel about discussing
your your words? I trust people that not treat my
fucking words as gospel, because that would be stupid to
be true. It's anything that anybody in the public. Guy said,
is titled with sucking Gospel. That would be absurd, right, Um,
(14:09):
So I asked it. It's my ship. I'll say that
A want about it. I respect people. I don't. Um,
just straight up you know. I wasn't the thing with
Trent Resident, who I like a lot. Um. He doesn't
like to talk about meeting and songs. He even said
that it ruins that. I'm sorry, I like ruining stuff.
I was saying, I know Swift. He doesn't like beause
I know Swift. He doesn't like to mention stuff, and
she's obviously very talented, good at her job. Um, but
(14:31):
I like to I enjoy ruining it for people. I
think it's important to understand context. I'm I'm I'm a
fucking layman student of history, and I have a very
intense desire to keep reliving my connection to place and time.
And so in order for me to do that, I
do that through the meeting of very mediocre indie rock music. Um.
(14:52):
And so the way did you want to stay? What
I mean? So, these are the ways I like to
approach the world and how I want to approach art.
And I think people who want to leave it up
to interpretation, that's cool. I think I think there's pretentiousness
on my side because I feel like it's so what
I have to say is so important and so meticulous
that I have to share it with it. And I
do understand it's probably criticism, but I would say, naturally
(15:14):
people who want to keep it themselves. I don't. I
want a big believed in this mystic in this mystical
spiritualized great band, but spiritualized fucking um? What's the word?
Focus focused around lyrics? So I mean, they're not going
to say the world it's poetry and it can be
like anything is up until to interpretation, even if I
(15:34):
tell you the truth of what it means. So I think,
I think that debate doesn't really rage in my head
because I just don't care. It's not really part of
what consumes my thought. I'm more concerned with wherever I'm
communicating what I want to say effectively enough, not whether
or not does that make sense to it or I
feel like I'm I feel like it might be a
pretty harsh answer to a really reasonable question. But no,
(15:55):
not at all. I mean I in a lot of ways,
I feel like you're being you're taking self deprecation to
the level of a martial art. I should say, I
was just we were just talking about this another interview. Man,
I've just I've just been drawn. It's becoming my attention
so often now I'm starting to think that if I
ever do another interview again, I'm gonna have to be this.
I'm gonna have to do this cocky cock shure, fucking
(16:18):
self assured kind of blow. You know, So next time
I spake to you, you'll be like, have you been
have you been smoking some really good ship? Because I
(16:38):
hadn't planned on sharing this, but I guess in the
interest of what you just said. I when I was
a young boy, I lost a parent and this was
more than twenty years ago, and just recently over Chris,
Oh no no, I'm no, no, no, no, no, I am.
Just recently over Christmas, a distant family member that I
(16:58):
hadn't known got in touch with me and sent me
a tremendous gift, the box of all sorts of teenage
uh letters and diaries my mom and written in photos
and stuff, and I it kind of made me think
of of what you were writing on this album too,
because I do we were you when I'm sorry to
hear that. Not Oh no, no, I was. I was
(17:19):
favorite people in the world, lost lost home on one
of my favorite people ever lost a mom. She's little girl,
so totally strongly, um, you know, totally strongly point oh no,
thank you. I mean I I was twelve and I'm
I'm thirty four now. I just I listening to your
songs and the words that that you were saying, and
even just you know this sounds corny, but even between
(17:41):
the lines of the lyrics too, I it hit me
in a personal way because I I sort of know
on a certain level what you were singing about, sort
of getting to know your parents after the fact. And
you know, I mean, what's that ancient Egyptian expression, something
like to speak a man's name is restore is to
restore or him to eternal life, which to any that
(18:04):
that is beautiful, I think I fucking eyed degicians. I
think I stole that from a from a from a
Doors interview. By the way, So for anybody thinks I'm
actually well read, I'm not. That's I definitely took that
from Jim Morrison. But the journey that you went through
on this record, um, it connected with me even uh
you know in ways that maybe you don't realize. And
(18:24):
I'm sure with so many people too. I mean, at
what point there's questions to both of you do you
start thinking of the audience when you're putting songs together?
I mean, all these songs of fragments of a grief eternal,
but it doesn't never leave you. And I think there's
a sense of this. I think there's a sense of
disconnected this I'll always have with an audience, purely because
(18:45):
my my my job, our job is too craft things
that people consume. I say this in every fucking interview,
but it's it's being a musician as a trade. You
play a trade, were overpaid assholes most of where who
do who do something? Rather Um it's but it's it's
a profession that otherwise would have inspired, um, you know
(19:08):
the kind of fandom that we see in they maybe
the seventeenth there might have been the nineteenth might have
been thinking from correct composers. But um, we're fortunate, We're
fortunately that our craft is is is because you know,
it is market speaking, um, considered to be worth more
(19:28):
than it actually is. Um. So I think I think,
I think what I'm trying, like Max you're gonna interrupt
me with something self effacing before I go in for
the kill. Was something like pejorative, So maybe you go,
uh No, I was just gonna say, like, the entire
thing is like I mean for me, that like music
is just about making people like feel you know, like
(19:53):
you know, like I don't know, like the you momi
like the sucking, Like that's the job, man. Like the
whole thing is like do I listen to this when
I'm listening to the mix, and am I like massively
affected by it? Um as a beautiful as it as
it bringing out the beauty or like the meaning in
(20:15):
the lyrics by accident or good ways is their contrast whatever?
I think. I think that's what I'm trying to I
think that's what I'm I think that's what I'm trying
to gesture. Act. Look, it's just the job, and you
can't help but think about where your table goes. If
you've made a table, you can't help but think about
like that's a great No, that's an incredible yeah. But
(20:35):
I wonder what this thing that I've spent six and
a half hours or six and a half weeks, sick
and half years making I wonder where this is going
to go. How the fund are you supposed to Not
so for me, it's like if I'm making ergonomic chairs
in my basement, you know, you want to make sure
that people are fucking enjoying sitting there ass on them,
you know, um, even if aesthetically they're not as pleasing
(21:00):
as the ship you might get down at the fucking
you know, the kyaka self deprecation is killing. No, but
it's not. It's not, but it's I think there's something
more reminiscent of the way that I grew up in
the way they look at music, that it's the job,
it's profession, and you want to think about where it goes.
And any bit of handy work you do is a
(21:20):
small mark on the planet Earth, you know, even the
smallest piece of literature or and that's nice to think about.
It's meaningless and it's bullshit, but it's still in some
way lovely, you know. And I would like anything that,
anything that I have to be reminiscent and reflective of
the talent that surrounds me and the four other guys
(21:40):
in the band, and also to reach people if they
if they choose to be reached. You know that's an
important thing, but it's hard. It's hard to balance because
I'm the kind of I'm such a fucking people pleaser.
Right if I think about what what the peanut gallery wants,
then they're getting nothing the peanuts, you know, and then
(22:00):
and they'll never change, They'll never change or something more
more nutritious like pears gentlemen. So that is said to
be I just don't have to be realistic about about
how much of myself can give away to that thought,
you know, because I'm prine to it. You know, I'm
a total as Joyce Meyer the you know how joy Spyers,
(22:23):
she's like as Christian authors appreciate No, no, no, I've
never read any of the ship. How many jets does
she have? That fucking bunch of jets of jets Jet
happy Jet have appreciate Jet. But but this this thing
called approval actics, as she talks about that, I vaguely
remember while being well drunk at a Hillsong conference where
(22:43):
I was talking, um, yeah, but that was suddenly like
being such an approval actic. I have to balance how
much I think about how this will be received for me.
It's not necessarily like people, because people like life with
dislike it. It's more like I think, I think growing up,
I was I was really um overly what's the word overly,
(23:08):
um overly like reverend to critical appraisal of my work,
not realizing that critics are also people who have their
own feelings, thoughts, biases, um, and they come and go
over the times as well. And it was also doing
a disservice to the to the to the role of
(23:29):
the music critic and the music writer as you know,
I treated them as you know, somehow different, which I
don't think they would appreciate, because I think it's an
important role in culture to be a writer of critic
or someone who appraised this thing. I think that there
is some importance that um. But that was like a
struggle that had fucking years. You know. All I wanted
(23:50):
was them fucking ten that it's ten or that bullshit,
and um, it's not bullshit when it matters. But I
think when I think about that's what I lose my
way a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I think I
think most critics that I'm no and that I'm tight
with don't place a massive emphasis on their job as
(24:11):
being the be all and end all, But they see
it as part of an unfolding conversation. And for me,
instead of being terrified at that conversation, I just sort
of let it go and just I am happy to
allow it um to continue on. And and I think
that's been the biggest change in me, is like the
sense that that any kind of approval outside of what
(24:33):
goes on in here and what goes on in the
room with those four other dives, um here be my self,
my soul um and what goes on the room for
other guys, that's possibly more important, um, not much more,
but you know, that's what kind of war I need
to gauge, you know, And you know there's I think
that I think it's not about drowning at noise, because
(24:55):
I don't necessarily believe, for example, that constructive criticism or
engage men or you know, discussion is is is bad.
I think it's actually really good. It's more about just
choosing how and when I allow that stuff into my
orbit that makes sense, and that that affects my RELACTIONIP
with the music more than anything, or at least it
(25:15):
used to. And you know, now having known many people
in music writing and and you know, I've I've realized
how completely immature and wrong I was to to fetishize
its side. See what I mean, what did success look
like to you when you were first starting out as
(25:35):
a band. Do you say all this now I'm curious
enough money for six hey? I mean yeah, chopping a
sticky from work, chopping a sicky from work, and then
not having to worry about whether or not I go back.
That was it was, mate. I think I don't know.
(25:56):
I think we are Um, I think I don't know.
I think you're are more complicated your answer mine was
kind of just um oh, ship, Like, here's an opportunity
to be in an actual band that does this and
tours and see see if they're a bit of the
Western world. Not as much of the rest of it
as we work as we want, but you know, see
(26:17):
if they're a bit of all that play some sucking
red venues. Um. I wanted to take it as far
as I could, to be honest, Um, I really believed
in it. I still do. Um, that's why I'm doing it.
Um No, but I do think what about I do
think I do think Um now I still have that
(26:38):
like that ambition, but I do think, yeah, you kind
of um Yeah. When I say when I talk about
like people being a gig back, I'm not sort of
saying it and make everyone like it or certainly not
make critics like it, even though it's cool when they do. Um.
It's it's more about like the ideal is like creating
(26:59):
something of all that really affects us and like and
I think inspires us, Like we don't. I don't think
Gang of Us has ever tried. It's a bit of
a met An album that you know, at the time,
we didn't feel some sense. I mean, Dave might say so,
but I certainly at the time where it's abelt like
we were doing something really fucking special. And I really
loved the songs and I loved performing them and I
(27:21):
still do, you know, so for me it's like, yeah,
I'm like, it's a weird car. It's like a mature
ambition now, you know, when you're like twenty, it's like
if we're not doing Madison Square Garden in two years,
then like the world's the world's fucked. And then you
realize your five years and like I just drove fifteen
(27:43):
hours to like play the ten People in Salt Lake
City or something, and you're like you know, actually you
have not lived until you played Kilby Court. I loved
that show. That was one of my favorite but I
loved it. I loved it. I loved it without irony
(28:03):
and it's like just the sweetest people turned out and
it's sad to assume a couple of them are morements
and they didn't drink um. It was, but it was
one of my favorite. It was my favorite favorite favorite times.
Like for me right, like the idea of success is pure,
like do I have enough? Wanted to keep sucking lights
on to give my wife a better sleep in and
(28:23):
my dog enough medicine, Like that's the success thing. All
the other stuff is cool, but playing Kilby Court felt
so surreal. It's it's in for me. It's engaging these
totally surreal environments now like things that things that helped
me appreciate people to who they are when they come
in the show seven people, no booze in a shed
(28:44):
that said that to manage and watch the show that
like he sat and just what's what's the NBA playoffs?
He's like this, He's amazing. It was it was it
was right on three one. Yeah, I thought that was
awesome and my yeah, we was playing, and I reckon
that most people stay home and watch the game. But
that's that's not a good, that's a good. That's a
(29:06):
good picture for me of what successful. So it's just
having enough in my world to be able to do that,
you know. But um, but that would be the same
with any job. I don't necessarily attach too much financial
like too much financial motivation or too much personal motivation
too my job because it's a vocation. Um And whether
(29:30):
like I could just as easy to have easily not
have had a break as a lead singer when I
could be still on unemployment, you know, I could still
like what we do is completely lucky. So tying it
in with some level of some some some kind of
abstract some abstraction like success doesn't really make sense to me.
(29:54):
Yeah you're not, you're not the one if you're in
a band, you know what I mean, Like, you're not
sucking neo Like, yeah, you're not, you're not. You're not.
It looks a chosen fucking person. But it's so weird
that reception that is a band, you're a total bastion
of moral superiority and cleanliness and everything about your fucking
like spot on and you just have all the right
opinions sucking were like we was kids. We were we
(30:17):
were was was worked, we was we was we were
we were kids, right, you know, I was a barely
fucking nineteen eighteen or something, which now seems that you're
supposed to be so growing up. By that point, it wasn't. Um. So, yeah,
you go into these things with kind of low expectations
for big dreams and aspirations, you try to achieve them.
You're not a fully formed person um at all. And
(30:38):
I think that was what Yeah, that's kind of how
I would what do you reckon? Max? Back me up? Yere. No,
there's been a lot of We're a band that's had
like a lot of like a lot of um, we're
very lucky, man, Like I say, there's there's people better
than us who aren't doing this, you know, um, but
there's there's definitely been times where like we've been it's
(30:59):
about like went that close to being like like the
fucking Killers or something like like usually because someone saying
bullshit too you know, I'm not saying recently, saying over
the over the years, and then like yeah, and then
it's just like you just get absolutely fucked, like you know,
they're like you're like and then it's just like and
then like the next months you're just like sleeping on
(31:20):
floors or something like. Just I love that about music.
It's like such a you have to you have to
have obviously beyond it. That's like obsessing about the success.
You you're just going nut. You like a shark and
you just dive swimming. We we had like a number
five album in Australia at at one point, and I
was sleeping on someone's office floor a band on someone's office.
(31:44):
I mean like like I had like the way that
you relate to because in Australia, like we had no idea.
We'd line up until we've moved, Like I'm fucking not
shooting you. Look, we weren't like a big band. We
were a touring band. We weren't like you know, we
weren't this um we were what we are now. We
weren't even close to it. Well, I had no fucking clue.
Then we go back from Australia and doing all these
(32:04):
shows and playing these kids that that was really how
it was. We did some stuff and we played some
festival slots, but they're all during the day, like we
didn't have the same the same vibe, you know, when
we just thought were another middling, middling kind of in
the rock band amidst a seve decent ones. Yeah, man,
and so when that one, so that one changed, So
(32:26):
that whole perception changes. It only happens after the fact.
And by this time gone back to Australia. My poor
wife who had literally no fucking clue about how how
successful we'd become in Australia because I fucking barely knew. I. Um,
she comes and then you witnessed it. It's like, oh,
I see, okay, Well was that gratifying for you? Was
(32:50):
that terrifying for you? Was that confusing for you? Not?
Particularly because I think we left Australia because the ground
swell of fame and bullshit started to occur a little
bit to me. Um, but you just think that, oh,
this is just because you're in a band that plays
indie rock music in a country of people. Um. It
(33:15):
was starting for me to get overwhelming, um about positive
where this would lead. Gentleman. Look, it was it was
more about we left because of you know, I began
to fear like what that would look like for my life?
In a lot of ways, not just that was the
only reason. That was a big thing for me personally
(33:36):
and motivation, but it was a gratifying like I mean,
it's gratifying if people like me. I enjoy that. I
want to be liked by people, So people like my music,
if my bandmates like me gentlemen, or if people just
at least don't sucking totally despise me, and great, you know,
and that was what the band. That was what when
(33:57):
Go Father Enlightness became like kind of a thing Australia,
it was that was really nice because it felt like,
you know, I felt like all the lives I've been telling,
telling myself, um about you know, that I'm a worthless
sex ship delivering to anything with just those there were lives.
It was gratification grow fling in that sense. But all
(34:19):
this stuff I came along with it was a bit
tricky for me personally. What do you recommxing. We have
such different experiences, that's the weird things Like you're in
a band, you're in the same band. We've done that.
We've literally run a business together basically for ten years,
like lived together. But like, yeah, so I can, yeah,
(34:40):
I don't really experience that ship. Man, Like unless I'm
literally on stage, I can watch like our support act
if we're playing like an arena and no one will
come up, like I'm literally like I can have a
bear I get like I did by the fucking security guard,
you know what I mean. Like it's like an It's
(35:00):
like I wish that Dave could like switch out and
like not have to deal with all that ship, but he,
unfortunately's the sexy front man. So it's part of it.
It's part of the gift. But let's not blow too much,
like up me no, no. But I'm just saying it's
a funny, like it's so it's so hard I almost
can't weigh yet. Like it's not from like a yeah
(35:24):
from it's not like like a band perspective. I'm like, yeah,
like it's like ten kids that up. Oh my god.
It's honestly, I love this, you know. That's all I think.
It's not that it's not like there's this absurd level
of invasiveness Like that's what I'm talking about. I'm just
talking for the kind of person I am, Like I
love people, and I want to be around people and
(35:45):
hug them and say thank you. It's just that too
many I feel like I'm disappointed. Everybody does not make sense.
It's it's not like you. But yeah, because fucking carrot
Top could walk around and I'm not using him as
a as a as as a I'm not using him
as like fucking as an easy target because like people
like character, but someone who he's not like sup popular Australia.
(36:06):
He could walk past me in Australia and more people
will be interesting character gentlemen. But that's the extent. But
even that extent for me is difficult, you know what
I mean. It doesn't really go well with the with
the fucking you know, the lovable loser bullshit thing that
that I've been promoted to everybody, um by the press
in order to um prey on people's sympathies so that
(36:28):
I can get their money. Um, it's no, it's it's not.
It's not. It's not. The whole lovable is a beautiful
of fatalism. As Robert Criscal would say about Prescrictor, it's
not that, it's it's it's not. Actually, it's just a
genuine discomfort with with what that looks like. For me.
I have a real hard time of it. I also
I didn't. I wish I was more like into it,
(36:50):
you know, like you see fucking like football players here
in the UKLA. I just saw a video of a
particular player from a particular club saying this particular club
and what and they just have the competence just like
fuck you to your employer like that when they're paying
your millions. But and I just I don't know, man,
I don't have the confidence to be that the self
belief it gets to be like that version that be
(37:12):
to be that kind of person. General mean, Max and
Jordan's yeah, there's because there's different kinds of gigs, man,
Like we're lucky that we also, you know, we still
get to meet fans and ship at some in some
places we play, you know, and so will you know,
they'll be you know, five hundred kids in a club
or something and you can get you can kind of
(37:33):
like go out and have bear. It's not that weird,
you know. Kids. Maxa's kids like eighteen year olds like
our music and I'm not sure if they do, yeah,
Max says kids. Yeah, when Maxa's kids like usually the
people who work shows, I like typically between the age
of five to sixty and that no no, but no people. No.
(37:58):
But I think I think you're being openly general to
us because like the kids, they're not listening to our ship.
I'm telling you, I've been on TikTok exactly once and
they are not listening to You. Don't need some serious
work made, some make some marine condo treatment, because it stop.
Does this existing star when you are able to meet
(38:30):
with these fans dot mean, is there anything that you
can hear from them that makes you think, you know,
the days of sleeping on the couch and driving you know,
a couple hundred miles to play fifteen people and all
the all that was worth it? Is there one thing
you can hear from those folks that really just having
just having those experiences, Jordan's fucking worth it is being
(38:52):
a rock band. Isn't doing gloom blocker presentatives like representative,
but it's just not so much of it is just
laughter and fucking joy and and youthfulness and um you know,
drinking and going to see different beautiful buildings across Europe
and like so much of it is that. So when
(39:13):
if someone comes to a show, I'm grateful, do you understand?
But I don't have to meet the motherfucker. They could
take it, but someone actually coming is important, you know.
I mean they've taken the time, They've they've done what
I did as a kid, Right, I listened to something.
I loved it. I want to go see it like
they've done what I did. You know that that for
me is um, sorry Maxice talking over you, brother, But
(39:35):
that for me, it's like I said, it's an indictment
against all the bad stuff I called himself that I was.
And it's confirmation that maybe my therapist and Max and
the boys and my wife and my dad are probably
right about it, but I'm not so bad, you know.
It's it's confirmation of that fact. I like, I'm like,
I like existing in that space. So when someone comes
up and said, hey, great show man, fucking great audience,
(39:58):
never great job being fucking yeah, and so it's so
weird to be like, but I'm genuinely overwhelmed and feeled
with like love for anybody who wants to see us play.
You know, even if they just said see Donnie, which
is I'm the same. You know, they're because they're massive
now in the whale fans, and I love Tom Tom.
Tom stands in my favorite thing man like Tom Stairs.
(40:21):
There's a whole far there's a Tom Hobden adoration subcommittee
meeting someone deep down. Yeah, Tumble, I know. But in
the bowels of what depend they've got a special fucking
c a constructive facility or the character mining for pictures
of fucking Tom when he was a know of the world, gorgeous,
gorgeous person. I love him well. I could talk to
(40:45):
you all day. I want to especially say again I
this album is absolutely incredible and it touched me deeply,
and I thank you for that. From on a personal level,
I guess my my last question to you, and I've
got three pages of questions and I'm on one out
of thin air right now that I'm making up on
the spot you and you invoked uh Bruce a moment
(41:06):
ago I was watching recently. I don't even remember what
it was. He was doing some Q and a, uh,
some audience Q and A, and somebody stood up in
the audience and said, yeah, Bruce, you know, I've been
listening to you for years and you've always been so
generous with your your your lyrics and and song meetings
and and just your your emotions. You really seem to
wear your heart in your sleep. I feel like I
know you do I And it was just such an
(41:29):
amazing question, and I wish I could remember Bruce said,
but I guess I kind of wanted to put the
same question to to you both. With you know your
your music. You're so generous with everything that you do,
everything you put out there. Do we fans who know
your music? Are we uh sort of allowed to feel
like we know you in a way? Or is that
(41:49):
those is there a division between uh, you know on
stage and offstage. To know Max is to love and
a dual Max, And anyone who doesn't love Max doesn't
know Max. That's laughing about that anyway, anyone anyone, anyone's stupid,
anyone's stupid, delusional, mean, or narcissistic enough not to love
maxic as well? Um, second, does that you answer that
(42:14):
for me? Then? I think, Um, I think I think
Dave's an extremely um you hate this word, but authentic.
But I think there's no question, there's no no like
like you suck off man, like you're like you're literally
like a beautiful, like super compelling, wonderful human being. And
(42:39):
I think so people see Yeah, I reckon if people
see day perform and the way he tries to reach everybody.
Dave sees everyone. Dave's a guy who likes sees the
dude in the corner of the room no one's talking to,
and talks to him. So I feel like if you
get that from if you get that from the gig,
like you feel like you're connected to then that, Yeah,
(43:00):
that's knowing David. And we're also pretty fucking you know,
basic bogan dudes, Like we're not. Um, I feel like
Tom and Tom. Yeah, but like with us, man, we
this would have just happened if you're in the green
room the same conversation. There's no like, there's nothing performative. Um, really,
(43:24):
I don't think about I mean, honestly, people probably wish
there was more of it. Like that's why we stuck
at social media, man, because we I'm actually as a
real friend, you know, that's something funny. I don't think,
oh ship being out the fucking TikTok, Like we just
don't film each other. So like there's just nothing funny either,
(43:44):
you know. But we're actually really funny, you know what
I mean, like actually really interesting guys. But no, one
of the one of my biggest fears when it when
it came to writing running music, is that people would
look at me as I wasn't, you know. And I
(44:04):
resent idle, and I resent idole and hero worship. I
resent people who look at people in my position like
where gods, we're fucking absolutely not. It's I find it
repulsive the idea that somehow I've been treated any differently. Um.
And I think because of that, there's a sense of
candid and candor and the music maybe like I've given it.
(44:27):
I've given it my own kind of broke the way
I'm phrasings and maybe not in an Australian accent because
I can't put Courtney by net can um uh. But yeah,
my brokes in there, like my thoughts, my feelings about ship.
I don't like the state, so that that's in there.
It's a pretty big part of who I'm what I am. Ah,
(44:52):
But I'm not one of them gads the flag pipes
or maybe I am who knows. It's America. You can
be anything you want. Um. I bet I've just been
at it. I've been it, sorry, a little bit political
human there for you. Um, I know how you Americans
love politics. But I think now It's just a good question.
(45:13):
But do you know what I mean? I wanted to
think so you know, but you can't. If I guess it,
there's a real maid is more intolerable and the Reverend
than David Context. So maybe if you get to know
that person and you still want my music and Jesus Cross,
you don't base Cross. We hope you enjoyed this episode
(45:34):
of Inside the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio.
For more episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows,
check out the I Heart Radio app Apple podcast forever
you listen to your favorite podcast.
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Studio on iHeart Radio. My name is Jordan run Tug,
but enough about me. My guest today are members of
one of Australia's biggest bands. They've slowly but surely mounted
their musical assault on this hemisphere with the help of
two stellar records, The Positions and Go Farther in Lightness.
(00:24):
Their latest album, Angel in Real Time, is the result
of nearly five years of intense workshopping, numerous false starts,
serious case of writer's block, and one immense personal loss.
It's a monument of frontman Dave Leo Pepe's late father,
who died of cancer, and the song cycle finds him
coming to terms with the life milestone and contemplating the
(00:46):
loneliness of his passing juxtaposed with the comfort and peace
that often comes. And I Loved One transcends this reality
and into another. To paraphrase the group's own description, Angel
in Real Time is a meditation on the meaning of death,
grief and God, and also a nod to the London
neighborhood of Angel that served as the band's home base.
(01:07):
It's also a celebration of Dave's own Samoan heritage. The
record is packed with refluences and recordings of indigenous music
of the South Pacific, in addition to sounds of modern classical,
English drummond bass, and American folk. Angel in Real Time
is a highly ambitious work of creative and personal growth,
and it was well worth the way. I'm so happy
(01:28):
to welcome Dave, Leo Pepe and Max Dunn of Gang
of Youths. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Just to
kick it off, I mean, I I just want to
offer you, guys, oh well deserved congratulations and thank you
for Angel and Real Time. I mean, I know you've
(01:48):
been working on it for for several years now, and
I think I'm right and saying you recorded it three
different versions of it. I mean, how did you know
it was done? How did you know you had it
where you wanted it? Finally, it was when the labels said,
all right, the major label dead. That's the honest. So
your first for warners, right, Yeah, so yeah, it's it's um,
(02:11):
it's weird lot our experiences labels is kind of more
synonymous of how they experienced it, probably in the nineties
when they had Googles and money and credit cards and
credit cards, but like Cartel wrought cocaine, um, that kind
of But they've been really permissive with us and really
really even temp and cool with us, you know, which
is you know, not the stereotype of most major labels.
(02:34):
And honestly, we stay in the business, they stay out out.
The Warned team here in the UK are unbelievable. The
American team are really really really great, super supported, unbelieving
as well. So it's been kind of like that. But
they were like, listen, it's been two fucking years, stop
passing around and get it done. Um. So that's kind
of what we had to know. And I think there
was as well, Yeah, because Max had a kid and
(02:56):
you know, it's the whole thing. But I think it
was a lot understanding that we had said everything that
we wanted to say in the best way, ah possible,
and it was and it was beautiful. We all found
it beautiful. And we keep sucking using this word today
that it's this idea of something that felt beautiful. And
I was saying before and I'll say now, this is
(03:18):
the first time in my career I felt um, but
I don't absolutely hate something, just hate it a little
bit this is a fucking miracle for me. But Mars
like it. But I think it's I think it's stunning. Man.
Like I think, you know, because we made so much
bad ship, well not even bad but just non right ship,
(03:38):
that it really does feel like, um, really cool. And
it was like so free and um, it was fucking hard,
Like obviously we were going insane. It's at seven points
of like two years during lockdown and a room. Um,
but I just mean it was like it was, yeah,
everything that you know Dave's probably wanted in terms of
(04:02):
influences in the past that had been too weird or
too like whatever, and you know, we were able to
throw ourselves into that and all our different backgrounds and
kind of just come up with something really beautiful and
weird and like that, I felt like it was the
right thing for who we are now, which is really cool.
I feel like you only know you only you know
(04:26):
when you've arrived, when you arrived, like it was sort
of you just got there and it got to the
last track being done, kind of the scaffolding of it,
and I think we just kind of paused and said,
I think we're about nearly really there or winners, Um,
some lares. Yeah, And it was interesting because like at
the at the outset of the of the whole fucking album,
(04:51):
right when we first started working, when I first started working,
I knew it would be a title pain to get done.
It would be a lot of late though. It's a
lot of travel, a lot of money spent to get
the sound that we wanted, the size of the of
the string ensemble that we wanted, um, you know, to
(05:11):
pay the musicians correctly, um, to to appropriately distribute admiralties
to the rights holders of not only the recordings of
the samples that we've used by David Fanshaw, but also
the people who performed that trying to find ways so
we understood there would be a lot that went into it.
So I think once that stuff was kind of ironed out, um,
(05:33):
and we've got we've got a sense of, um, what
the album was going to sound like mixed wise, because
we actually started mixing some of these songs before vocals
moveing on it. Because I hadn't finished the lyrics for
some things. Something has had lyrics for anyone the decades,
and other things just took a really long time. So
it was basically when the lyrics were done. Okay, the
(05:54):
album's done, gentlemen, our mate counts it. And also Peter
Cater who we can't forget, who was just sucking amazing.
He mixed Return Unison. But but people really really worked
against the clock on it. So the way I then,
especially count did so much work, massive, massive, massive gratitude,
(06:15):
the huge de on the tracks where you had the
the instrumental arrangements done but working on the lyrics. Did
you know what you wanted to say in those songs?
Was it a case of sitting down and working on
how to articulate it? Or did you sit with the
instrumental tracks and just think, where does this take me?
Right now? Where? What is you know? What is it
that uh this we feel? That's a good good question.
(06:35):
It was column I, column by I always have a
title of the song before I have lyrics UM, and
the title was just a placeholder that sparks some emotion
related to the song for me, or or a concept
with feeling UM. For the most part, man um. It
kind of works in different ways depending on the song.
(06:58):
If I'm if, if I have a it always starts
with the melody for me, weirdly UM. On this one,
it was it was all melodic and finding phrasing and
words that fit that, and then a mood to fit
the phrasing and words, and then trying to trying to
carve out shape of a contour of the themes or whatever.
(07:21):
I'm not someone who just kind of could just put
put out words. There's always a central nervous system, like
a like a some tripical motion that exists at the
nucleus of every song or whatever that propels it, that
gives it meaning and value to me, that make me
not want to fucking die every time we have to
perform the motherfucker, do you know what I mean? So
(07:41):
finding that meaning was the hard It was the hard basket,
you know what I mean. And for some songs like
The Kingdom Is Within You or You and Everything, the
meaning approach many of the lyrics they're kind of already
there um or or I had a tacit understanding of
where that song was going to go, Whereas like with
(08:02):
Full Bearance, I had an inkling of what I wanted
the sort of sound live, but kind of changed and
shifted and then it went back around to being what
it was about. Does that make sense? So it just
kind of depends on what song And I think for
bearans always had a strong malondic component that tied me
to emotions around that that were kind of like, you know,
(08:22):
synonymous with those melodies. Um, they kind of just fed itself.
I think you know, but that was a completed instrumental
sucking or list a year ago, which is wild. Mm hmm.
I think I read and I don't. I don't know.
Maybe a miss understood this that the project began with
the album's title. Did that more? I guess question one?
(08:44):
Is that true? And question too? How did that kind
of serve as sort of the uh, you know your
your your load, star, your your your you know your
guide throughout this? Um, I mean, Max do remember this,
but I just started working on this albumen where we
was living. It would just moved to London, m Jordan
(09:04):
loved and and there's Plankton day on Pettonville, Pettonville and Caledonian.
So that makes you answer looking for give you for that? Um,
um Haven'tville Caledonian. So that was rightly where we were made.
I can't even express to you how meaningful that neighborhood
is because we used to live in Holloway um On, Caledonia, Road.
(09:27):
What was that street Corporated station. So that was actually
where I wrote The Angel of my Dead Years, where
I started working on UM. When I started working on UM,
what what turned into Unison Tender Garden, A little bit,
A little bits are in there. UM. There's just a
lot of stuff I started working on there, and I
(09:49):
kind of I kind of had this vision of look
because I knew my dad wasn't well and he was sick.
I knew that one day I'd have to confront the
realities of my my heritage in his upbring and I
was like thinking about integrating some of that stuff. But
I knew I wanted to use samples gentlemen, and so
I feel like that was the genesis of where it started.
(10:11):
Angel brill Time, however, tied everything into a cohesive hole
for me that I came up with that album name
in two eighteen May. I was walking around Angel the
day that we found the house and we all lived in,
and I was always been with you, like like every
album with a there's a name a name. Before I
remember being told like we're gonna we should make a
(10:33):
father and lighting us now and been like okay, okay,
like whatever the funk that means, you know at the time,
which is a cool trade. Man. It's like it's cool
to have like a north Star. It's like a dude
in a band, Like yeah, it's it's weird because I
always think of I always think of like it's gonna
sound like the best pluck and pretensus bullshitever. But Thomas
(10:55):
Pensioned grabbed his rainbow. There's that thing about, um, you
never did the cannotion kid, And there's like six thousand
different And I used to follow Twitter account years ago.
That auto, that auto produces different grammatical variations that you
never did the cannotion kid. Now for people who grab
his rainbo, I don't want to sucking ruin it, but
(11:16):
it's just like it's, um, it's for me. The the
fluidity of that sentence is explored a lot, and not
in the in the in the book, but in the
fandom surrounding that. Hence why there's an order generated Twitter
that generates like new grammatical variations. Just a simple nonsensical
(11:40):
statement can have a lot of thematic weight depending on
its interpretation. And I like that there's like almost like
almost like plos use the term post structuralist. One of
my fucking professor in Boston at Harvard, right, one of
my sucking white collar professional Um, there's a sense of
(12:02):
like each word donating denating something else, And so I thought,
angel in real time, we'll live in Angel. My dad's
an angel real time. You know. I just all these
kind of images of contra up of this, this kind
of relatively banal, benign sort of phrase, And I love
how it's open interpretation to me but to others, but
(12:23):
it meant something to me. Someone go farther in lightness?
What the fuck is go farther? Why that word? Why
up further? Why lightness? What is likeness? You know? I like.
I like the idea of the English language being poised
for interpretation always any given time, and a collection of
you like the positions I mean I was using as
a reference in Lennon Cohen's Various Positions, but it could
(12:45):
also mean the positions on a football pictures that I
think there's I think there's so much fluidity. So if
I just come up with words that sound beautiful and
they suggest something, they imply meaning that it perhaps fucking
potentially something will come from it, Like if there will
be blood? Do you know what I mean? Chunking express
(13:05):
Do you know what I'm saying? Like? I like the
ideas that so much, almost like Louis Carroll. Yeah, it's
all whimsy and bullshit, but to me, it makes them
fucking conceptual. But but that's how I started everything. I
feel like a title cinematic and it helps me derive
meeting and shape and ark without having to do too
(13:26):
much groundwork. You know, it's all about the big picture
type stuff in the initial stages and planning record. How
do you feel about I feel like there's sort of
two schools of thought with with artists being asked about
their lyrics. There are some who who will dive right
in and almost treat it like a diary and tell
you, you you know, what they were feeling where these came from.
And then there are others who are you know, prefer
(13:47):
to be a little more vague and really want to
leave it open to interpretation and open to, you know,
people to bring their own twist to it. How do
you feel about that? How do you feel about discussing
your your words? I trust people that not treat my
fucking words as gospel, because that would be stupid to
be true. It's anything that anybody in the public. Guy said,
is titled with sucking Gospel. That would be absurd, right, Um,
(14:09):
So I asked it. It's my ship. I'll say that
A want about it. I respect people. I don't. Um,
just straight up you know. I wasn't the thing with
Trent Resident, who I like a lot. Um. He doesn't
like to talk about meeting and songs. He even said
that it ruins that. I'm sorry, I like ruining stuff.
I was saying, I know Swift. He doesn't like beause
I know Swift. He doesn't like to mention stuff, and
she's obviously very talented, good at her job. Um, but
(14:31):
I like to I enjoy ruining it for people. I
think it's important to understand context. I'm I'm I'm a
fucking layman student of history, and I have a very
intense desire to keep reliving my connection to place and time.
And so in order for me to do that, I
do that through the meeting of very mediocre indie rock music. Um.
(14:52):
And so the way did you want to stay? What
I mean? So, these are the ways I like to
approach the world and how I want to approach art.
And I think people who want to leave it up
to interpretation, that's cool. I think I think there's pretentiousness
on my side because I feel like it's so what
I have to say is so important and so meticulous
that I have to share it with it. And I
do understand it's probably criticism, but I would say, naturally
(15:14):
people who want to keep it themselves. I don't. I
want a big believed in this mystic in this mystical
spiritualized great band, but spiritualized fucking um? What's the word?
Focus focused around lyrics? So I mean, they're not going
to say the world it's poetry and it can be
like anything is up until to interpretation, even if I
(15:34):
tell you the truth of what it means. So I think,
I think that debate doesn't really rage in my head
because I just don't care. It's not really part of
what consumes my thought. I'm more concerned with wherever I'm
communicating what I want to say effectively enough, not whether
or not does that make sense to it or I
feel like I'm I feel like it might be a
pretty harsh answer to a really reasonable question. But no,
(15:55):
not at all. I mean I in a lot of ways,
I feel like you're being you're taking self deprecation to
the level of a martial art. I should say, I
was just we were just talking about this another interview. Man,
I've just I've just been drawn. It's becoming my attention
so often now I'm starting to think that if I
ever do another interview again, I'm gonna have to be this.
I'm gonna have to do this cocky cock shure, fucking
(16:18):
self assured kind of blow. You know, So next time
I spake to you, you'll be like, have you been
have you been smoking some really good ship? Because I
(16:38):
hadn't planned on sharing this, but I guess in the
interest of what you just said. I when I was
a young boy, I lost a parent and this was
more than twenty years ago, and just recently over Chris,
Oh no no, I'm no, no, no, no, no, I am.
Just recently over Christmas, a distant family member that I
(16:58):
hadn't known got in touch with me and sent me
a tremendous gift, the box of all sorts of teenage
uh letters and diaries my mom and written in photos
and stuff, and I it kind of made me think
of of what you were writing on this album too,
because I do we were you when I'm sorry to
hear that. Not Oh no, no, I was. I was
(17:19):
favorite people in the world, lost lost home on one
of my favorite people ever lost a mom. She's little girl,
so totally strongly, um, you know, totally strongly point oh no,
thank you. I mean I I was twelve and I'm
I'm thirty four now. I just I listening to your
songs and the words that that you were saying, and
even just you know this sounds corny, but even between
(17:41):
the lines of the lyrics too, I it hit me
in a personal way because I I sort of know
on a certain level what you were singing about, sort
of getting to know your parents after the fact. And
you know, I mean, what's that ancient Egyptian expression, something
like to speak a man's name is restore is to
restore or him to eternal life, which to any that
(18:04):
that is beautiful, I think I fucking eyed degicians. I
think I stole that from a from a from a
Doors interview. By the way, So for anybody thinks I'm
actually well read, I'm not. That's I definitely took that
from Jim Morrison. But the journey that you went through
on this record, um, it connected with me even uh
you know in ways that maybe you don't realize. And
(18:24):
I'm sure with so many people too. I mean, at
what point there's questions to both of you do you
start thinking of the audience when you're putting songs together?
I mean, all these songs of fragments of a grief eternal,
but it doesn't never leave you. And I think there's
a sense of this. I think there's a sense of
disconnected this I'll always have with an audience, purely because
(18:45):
my my my job, our job is too craft things
that people consume. I say this in every fucking interview,
but it's it's being a musician as a trade. You
play a trade, were overpaid assholes most of where who
do who do something? Rather Um it's but it's it's
a profession that otherwise would have inspired, um, you know
(19:08):
the kind of fandom that we see in they maybe
the seventeenth there might have been the nineteenth might have
been thinking from correct composers. But um, we're fortunate, We're
fortunately that our craft is is is because you know,
it is market speaking, um, considered to be worth more
(19:28):
than it actually is. Um. So I think I think,
I think what I'm trying, like Max you're gonna interrupt
me with something self effacing before I go in for
the kill. Was something like pejorative, So maybe you go,
uh No, I was just gonna say, like, the entire
thing is like I mean for me, that like music
is just about making people like feel you know, like
(19:53):
you know, like I don't know, like the you momi
like the sucking, Like that's the job, man. Like the
whole thing is like do I listen to this when
I'm listening to the mix, and am I like massively
affected by it? Um as a beautiful as it as
it bringing out the beauty or like the meaning in
(20:15):
the lyrics by accident or good ways is their contrast whatever?
I think. I think that's what I'm trying to I
think that's what I'm I think that's what I'm trying
to gesture. Act. Look, it's just the job, and you
can't help but think about where your table goes. If
you've made a table, you can't help but think about
like that's a great No, that's an incredible yeah. But
(20:35):
I wonder what this thing that I've spent six and
a half hours or six and a half weeks, sick
and half years making I wonder where this is going
to go. How the fund are you supposed to Not
so for me, it's like if I'm making ergonomic chairs
in my basement, you know, you want to make sure
that people are fucking enjoying sitting there ass on them,
you know, um, even if aesthetically they're not as pleasing
(21:00):
as the ship you might get down at the fucking
you know, the kyaka self deprecation is killing. No, but
it's not. It's not, but it's I think there's something
more reminiscent of the way that I grew up in
the way they look at music, that it's the job,
it's profession, and you want to think about where it goes.
And any bit of handy work you do is a
(21:20):
small mark on the planet Earth, you know, even the
smallest piece of literature or and that's nice to think about.
It's meaningless and it's bullshit, but it's still in some
way lovely, you know. And I would like anything that,
anything that I have to be reminiscent and reflective of
the talent that surrounds me and the four other guys
(21:40):
in the band, and also to reach people if they
if they choose to be reached. You know that's an
important thing, but it's hard. It's hard to balance because
I'm the kind of I'm such a fucking people pleaser.
Right if I think about what what the peanut gallery wants,
then they're getting nothing the peanuts, you know, and then
(22:00):
and they'll never change, They'll never change or something more
more nutritious like pears gentlemen. So that is said to
be I just don't have to be realistic about about
how much of myself can give away to that thought,
you know, because I'm prine to it. You know, I'm
a total as Joyce Meyer the you know how joy Spyers,
(22:23):
she's like as Christian authors appreciate No, no, no, I've
never read any of the ship. How many jets does
she have? That fucking bunch of jets of jets Jet
happy Jet have appreciate Jet. But but this this thing
called approval actics, as she talks about that, I vaguely
remember while being well drunk at a Hillsong conference where
(22:43):
I was talking, um, yeah, but that was suddenly like
being such an approval actic. I have to balance how
much I think about how this will be received for me.
It's not necessarily like people, because people like life with
dislike it. It's more like I think, I think growing up,
I was I was really um overly what's the word overly,
(23:08):
um overly like reverend to critical appraisal of my work,
not realizing that critics are also people who have their
own feelings, thoughts, biases, um, and they come and go
over the times as well. And it was also doing
a disservice to the to the to the role of
(23:29):
the music critic and the music writer as you know,
I treated them as you know, somehow different, which I
don't think they would appreciate, because I think it's an
important role in culture to be a writer of critic
or someone who appraised this thing. I think that there
is some importance that um. But that was like a
struggle that had fucking years. You know. All I wanted
(23:50):
was them fucking ten that it's ten or that bullshit,
and um, it's not bullshit when it matters. But I
think when I think about that's what I lose my
way a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I think I
think most critics that I'm no and that I'm tight
with don't place a massive emphasis on their job as
(24:11):
being the be all and end all, But they see
it as part of an unfolding conversation. And for me,
instead of being terrified at that conversation, I just sort
of let it go and just I am happy to
allow it um to continue on. And and I think
that's been the biggest change in me, is like the
sense that that any kind of approval outside of what
(24:33):
goes on in here and what goes on in the
room with those four other dives, um here be my self,
my soul um and what goes on the room for
other guys, that's possibly more important, um, not much more,
but you know, that's what kind of war I need
to gauge, you know, And you know there's I think
that I think it's not about drowning at noise, because
(24:55):
I don't necessarily believe, for example, that constructive criticism or
engage men or you know, discussion is is is bad.
I think it's actually really good. It's more about just
choosing how and when I allow that stuff into my
orbit that makes sense, and that that affects my RELACTIONIP
with the music more than anything, or at least it
(25:15):
used to. And you know, now having known many people
in music writing and and you know, I've I've realized
how completely immature and wrong I was to to fetishize
its side. See what I mean, what did success look
like to you when you were first starting out as
(25:35):
a band. Do you say all this now I'm curious
enough money for six hey? I mean yeah, chopping a
sticky from work, chopping a sicky from work, and then
not having to worry about whether or not I go back.
That was it was, mate. I think I don't know.
(25:56):
I think we are Um, I think I don't know.
I think you're are more complicated your answer mine was
kind of just um oh, ship, Like, here's an opportunity
to be in an actual band that does this and
tours and see see if they're a bit of the
Western world. Not as much of the rest of it
as we work as we want, but you know, see
(26:17):
if they're a bit of all that play some sucking
red venues. Um. I wanted to take it as far
as I could, to be honest, Um, I really believed
in it. I still do. Um, that's why I'm doing it.
Um No, but I do think what about I do
think I do think Um now I still have that
(26:38):
like that ambition, but I do think, yeah, you kind
of um Yeah. When I say when I talk about
like people being a gig back, I'm not sort of
saying it and make everyone like it or certainly not
make critics like it, even though it's cool when they do. Um.
It's it's more about like the ideal is like creating
(26:59):
something of all that really affects us and like and
I think inspires us, Like we don't. I don't think
Gang of Us has ever tried. It's a bit of
a met An album that you know, at the time,
we didn't feel some sense. I mean, Dave might say so,
but I certainly at the time where it's abelt like
we were doing something really fucking special. And I really
loved the songs and I loved performing them and I
(27:21):
still do, you know, so for me it's like, yeah,
I'm like, it's a weird car. It's like a mature
ambition now, you know, when you're like twenty, it's like
if we're not doing Madison Square Garden in two years,
then like the world's the world's fucked. And then you
realize your five years and like I just drove fifteen
(27:43):
hours to like play the ten People in Salt Lake
City or something, and you're like you know, actually you
have not lived until you played Kilby Court. I loved
that show. That was one of my favorite but I
loved it. I loved it. I loved it without irony
(28:03):
and it's like just the sweetest people turned out and
it's sad to assume a couple of them are morements
and they didn't drink um. It was, but it was
one of my favorite. It was my favorite favorite favorite times.
Like for me right, like the idea of success is pure,
like do I have enough? Wanted to keep sucking lights
on to give my wife a better sleep in and
(28:23):
my dog enough medicine, Like that's the success thing. All
the other stuff is cool, but playing Kilby Court felt
so surreal. It's it's in for me. It's engaging these
totally surreal environments now like things that things that helped
me appreciate people to who they are when they come
in the show seven people, no booze in a shed
(28:44):
that said that to manage and watch the show that
like he sat and just what's what's the NBA playoffs?
He's like this, He's amazing. It was it was it
was right on three one. Yeah, I thought that was
awesome and my yeah, we was playing, and I reckon
that most people stay home and watch the game. But
that's that's not a good, that's a good. That's a
(29:06):
good picture for me of what successful. So it's just
having enough in my world to be able to do that,
you know. But um, but that would be the same
with any job. I don't necessarily attach too much financial
like too much financial motivation or too much personal motivation
too my job because it's a vocation. Um And whether
(29:30):
like I could just as easy to have easily not
have had a break as a lead singer when I
could be still on unemployment, you know, I could still
like what we do is completely lucky. So tying it
in with some level of some some some kind of
abstract some abstraction like success doesn't really make sense to me.
(29:54):
Yeah you're not, you're not the one if you're in
a band, you know what I mean, Like, you're not
sucking neo Like, yeah, you're not, you're not. You're not.
It looks a chosen fucking person. But it's so weird
that reception that is a band, you're a total bastion
of moral superiority and cleanliness and everything about your fucking
like spot on and you just have all the right
opinions sucking were like we was kids. We were we
(30:17):
were was was worked, we was we was we were
we were kids, right, you know, I was a barely
fucking nineteen eighteen or something, which now seems that you're
supposed to be so growing up. By that point, it wasn't. Um. So, yeah,
you go into these things with kind of low expectations
for big dreams and aspirations, you try to achieve them.
You're not a fully formed person um at all. And
(30:38):
I think that was what Yeah, that's kind of how
I would what do you reckon? Max? Back me up? Yere. No,
there's been a lot of We're a band that's had
like a lot of like a lot of um, we're
very lucky, man, Like I say, there's there's people better
than us who aren't doing this, you know, um, but
there's there's definitely been times where like we've been it's
(30:59):
about like went that close to being like like the
fucking Killers or something like like usually because someone saying
bullshit too you know, I'm not saying recently, saying over
the over the years, and then like yeah, and then
it's just like you just get absolutely fucked, like you know,
they're like you're like and then it's just like and
then like the next months you're just like sleeping on
(31:20):
floors or something like. Just I love that about music.
It's like such a you have to you have to
have obviously beyond it. That's like obsessing about the success.
You you're just going nut. You like a shark and
you just dive swimming. We we had like a number
five album in Australia at at one point, and I
was sleeping on someone's office floor a band on someone's office.
(31:44):
I mean like like I had like the way that
you relate to because in Australia, like we had no idea.
We'd line up until we've moved, Like I'm fucking not
shooting you. Look, we weren't like a big band. We
were a touring band. We weren't like you know, we
weren't this um we were what we are now. We
weren't even close to it. Well, I had no fucking clue.
Then we go back from Australia and doing all these
(32:04):
shows and playing these kids that that was really how
it was. We did some stuff and we played some
festival slots, but they're all during the day, like we
didn't have the same the same vibe, you know, when
we just thought were another middling, middling kind of in
the rock band amidst a seve decent ones. Yeah, man,
and so when that one, so that one changed, So
(32:26):
that whole perception changes. It only happens after the fact.
And by this time gone back to Australia. My poor
wife who had literally no fucking clue about how how
successful we'd become in Australia because I fucking barely knew. I. Um,
she comes and then you witnessed it. It's like, oh,
I see, okay, Well was that gratifying for you? Was
(32:50):
that terrifying for you? Was that confusing for you? Not?
Particularly because I think we left Australia because the ground
swell of fame and bullshit started to occur a little
bit to me. Um, but you just think that, oh,
this is just because you're in a band that plays
indie rock music in a country of people. Um. It
(33:15):
was starting for me to get overwhelming, um about positive
where this would lead. Gentleman. Look, it was it was
more about we left because of you know, I began
to fear like what that would look like for my life?
In a lot of ways, not just that was the
only reason. That was a big thing for me personally
(33:36):
and motivation, but it was a gratifying like I mean,
it's gratifying if people like me. I enjoy that. I
want to be liked by people, So people like my music,
if my bandmates like me gentlemen, or if people just
at least don't sucking totally despise me, and great, you know,
and that was what the band. That was what when
(33:57):
Go Father Enlightness became like kind of a thing Australia,
it was that was really nice because it felt like,
you know, I felt like all the lives I've been telling,
telling myself, um about you know, that I'm a worthless
sex ship delivering to anything with just those there were lives.
It was gratification grow fling in that sense. But all
(34:19):
this stuff I came along with it was a bit
tricky for me personally. What do you recommxing. We have
such different experiences, that's the weird things Like you're in
a band, you're in the same band. We've done that.
We've literally run a business together basically for ten years,
like lived together. But like, yeah, so I can, yeah,
(34:40):
I don't really experience that ship. Man, Like unless I'm
literally on stage, I can watch like our support act
if we're playing like an arena and no one will
come up, like I'm literally like I can have a
bear I get like I did by the fucking security guard,
you know what I mean. Like it's like an It's
(35:00):
like I wish that Dave could like switch out and
like not have to deal with all that ship, but he,
unfortunately's the sexy front man. So it's part of it.
It's part of the gift. But let's not blow too much,
like up me no, no. But I'm just saying it's
a funny, like it's so it's so hard I almost
can't weigh yet. Like it's not from like a yeah
(35:24):
from it's not like like a band perspective. I'm like, yeah,
like it's like ten kids that up. Oh my god.
It's honestly, I love this, you know. That's all I think.
It's not that it's not like there's this absurd level
of invasiveness Like that's what I'm talking about. I'm just
talking for the kind of person I am, Like I
love people, and I want to be around people and
(35:45):
hug them and say thank you. It's just that too
many I feel like I'm disappointed. Everybody does not make sense.
It's it's not like you. But yeah, because fucking carrot
Top could walk around and I'm not using him as
a as a as as a I'm not using him
as like fucking as an easy target because like people
like character, but someone who he's not like sup popular Australia.
(36:06):
He could walk past me in Australia and more people
will be interesting character gentlemen. But that's the extent. But
even that extent for me is difficult, you know what
I mean. It doesn't really go well with the with
the fucking you know, the lovable loser bullshit thing that
that I've been promoted to everybody, um by the press
in order to um prey on people's sympathies so that
(36:28):
I can get their money. Um, it's no, it's it's not.
It's not. It's not. The whole lovable is a beautiful
of fatalism. As Robert Criscal would say about Prescrictor, it's
not that, it's it's it's not. Actually, it's just a
genuine discomfort with with what that looks like. For me.
I have a real hard time of it. I also
I didn't. I wish I was more like into it,
(36:50):
you know, like you see fucking like football players here
in the UKLA. I just saw a video of a
particular player from a particular club saying this particular club
and what and they just have the competence just like
fuck you to your employer like that when they're paying
your millions. But and I just I don't know, man,
I don't have the confidence to be that the self
belief it gets to be like that version that be
(37:12):
to be that kind of person. General mean, Max and
Jordan's yeah, there's because there's different kinds of gigs, man,
Like we're lucky that we also, you know, we still
get to meet fans and ship at some in some
places we play, you know, and so will you know,
they'll be you know, five hundred kids in a club
or something and you can get you can kind of
(37:33):
like go out and have bear. It's not that weird,
you know. Kids. Maxa's kids like eighteen year olds like
our music and I'm not sure if they do, yeah,
Max says kids. Yeah, when Maxa's kids like usually the
people who work shows, I like typically between the age
of five to sixty and that no no, but no people. No.
(37:58):
But I think I think you're being openly general to
us because like the kids, they're not listening to our ship.
I'm telling you, I've been on TikTok exactly once and
they are not listening to You. Don't need some serious
work made, some make some marine condo treatment, because it stop.
Does this existing star when you are able to meet
(38:30):
with these fans dot mean, is there anything that you
can hear from them that makes you think, you know,
the days of sleeping on the couch and driving you know,
a couple hundred miles to play fifteen people and all
the all that was worth it? Is there one thing
you can hear from those folks that really just having
just having those experiences, Jordan's fucking worth it is being
(38:52):
a rock band. Isn't doing gloom blocker presentatives like representative,
but it's just not so much of it is just
laughter and fucking joy and and youthfulness and um you know,
drinking and going to see different beautiful buildings across Europe
and like so much of it is that. So when
(39:13):
if someone comes to a show, I'm grateful, do you understand?
But I don't have to meet the motherfucker. They could
take it, but someone actually coming is important, you know.
I mean they've taken the time, They've they've done what
I did as a kid, Right, I listened to something.
I loved it. I want to go see it like
they've done what I did. You know that that for
me is um, sorry Maxice talking over you, brother, But
(39:35):
that for me, it's like I said, it's an indictment
against all the bad stuff I called himself that I was.
And it's confirmation that maybe my therapist and Max and
the boys and my wife and my dad are probably
right about it, but I'm not so bad, you know.
It's it's confirmation of that fact. I like, I'm like,
I like existing in that space. So when someone comes
up and said, hey, great show man, fucking great audience,
(39:58):
never great job being fucking yeah, and so it's so
weird to be like, but I'm genuinely overwhelmed and feeled
with like love for anybody who wants to see us play.
You know, even if they just said see Donnie, which
is I'm the same. You know, they're because they're massive
now in the whale fans, and I love Tom Tom.
Tom stands in my favorite thing man like Tom Stairs.
(40:21):
There's a whole far there's a Tom Hobden adoration subcommittee
meeting someone deep down. Yeah, Tumble, I know. But in
the bowels of what depend they've got a special fucking
c a constructive facility or the character mining for pictures
of fucking Tom when he was a know of the world, gorgeous,
gorgeous person. I love him well. I could talk to
(40:45):
you all day. I want to especially say again I
this album is absolutely incredible and it touched me deeply,
and I thank you for that. From on a personal level,
I guess my my last question to you, and I've
got three pages of questions and I'm on one out
of thin air right now that I'm making up on
the spot you and you invoked uh Bruce a moment
(41:06):
ago I was watching recently. I don't even remember what
it was. He was doing some Q and a, uh,
some audience Q and A, and somebody stood up in
the audience and said, yeah, Bruce, you know, I've been
listening to you for years and you've always been so
generous with your your your lyrics and and song meetings
and and just your your emotions. You really seem to
wear your heart in your sleep. I feel like I
know you do I And it was just such an
(41:29):
amazing question, and I wish I could remember Bruce said,
but I guess I kind of wanted to put the
same question to to you both. With you know your
your music. You're so generous with everything that you do,
everything you put out there. Do we fans who know
your music? Are we uh sort of allowed to feel
like we know you in a way? Or is that
(41:49):
those is there a division between uh, you know on
stage and offstage. To know Max is to love and
a dual Max, And anyone who doesn't love Max doesn't
know Max. That's laughing about that anyway, anyone anyone, anyone's stupid,
anyone's stupid, delusional, mean, or narcissistic enough not to love
maxic as well? Um, second, does that you answer that
(42:14):
for me? Then? I think, Um, I think I think
Dave's an extremely um you hate this word, but authentic.
But I think there's no question, there's no no like
like you suck off man, like you're like you're literally
like a beautiful, like super compelling, wonderful human being. And
(42:39):
I think so people see Yeah, I reckon if people
see day perform and the way he tries to reach everybody.
Dave sees everyone. Dave's a guy who likes sees the
dude in the corner of the room no one's talking to,
and talks to him. So I feel like if you
get that from if you get that from the gig,
like you feel like you're connected to then that, Yeah,
(43:00):
that's knowing David. And we're also pretty fucking you know,
basic bogan dudes, Like we're not. Um, I feel like
Tom and Tom. Yeah, but like with us, man, we
this would have just happened if you're in the green
room the same conversation. There's no like, there's nothing performative. Um, really,
(43:24):
I don't think about I mean, honestly, people probably wish
there was more of it. Like that's why we stuck
at social media, man, because we I'm actually as a
real friend, you know, that's something funny. I don't think,
oh ship being out the fucking TikTok, Like we just
don't film each other. So like there's just nothing funny either,
(43:44):
you know. But we're actually really funny, you know what
I mean, like actually really interesting guys. But no, one
of the one of my biggest fears when it when
it came to writing running music, is that people would
look at me as I wasn't, you know. And I
(44:04):
resent idle, and I resent idole and hero worship. I
resent people who look at people in my position like
where gods, we're fucking absolutely not. It's I find it
repulsive the idea that somehow I've been treated any differently. Um.
And I think because of that, there's a sense of
candid and candor and the music maybe like I've given it.
(44:27):
I've given it my own kind of broke the way
I'm phrasings and maybe not in an Australian accent because
I can't put Courtney by net can um uh. But yeah,
my brokes in there, like my thoughts, my feelings about ship.
I don't like the state, so that that's in there.
It's a pretty big part of who I'm what I am. Ah,
(44:52):
But I'm not one of them gads the flag pipes
or maybe I am who knows. It's America. You can
be anything you want. Um. I bet I've just been
at it. I've been it, sorry, a little bit political
human there for you. Um, I know how you Americans
love politics. But I think now It's just a good question.
(45:13):
But do you know what I mean? I wanted to
think so you know, but you can't. If I guess it,
there's a real maid is more intolerable and the Reverend
than David Context. So maybe if you get to know
that person and you still want my music and Jesus Cross,
you don't base Cross. We hope you enjoyed this episode
(45:34):
of Inside the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio.
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