March 5, 2021 • 25 mins
The multi-faceted performer and songwriter goes deep on his new song "Mama Always Told Me" (assisted by Maroon 5 guitar James Valentine), his recent rap-opera concept album 'Operation: Wake Up,' and how his 3000-mile, 186 day walk across the United States changed him personally and musically.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, everyone, Welcome to Inside the Studio on iHeart Radio.
My name is Jordan runt Dog. But enough about me now.
This is gonna be one of the most unique introductions
to this show because this is one of the most
unique guests we've had on this show. He's got brains
(00:21):
and musical brilliance. He started making waves as an undergrad
at Duke University before breaking out with hits like Cooler
than Me, Please Don't Go, and I Took a Pill
in Ibiza. He also made a name for himself as
a songwriter for Hire Co, writing smashes for the likes
of Justin Bieber and Maroon five. The back to back
deaths of his father and his friend of Vici led
him to take stock and reevaluate his life. He put
(00:43):
his career on hold to walk across the country. The
three thousand mile journey took a hundred and eighty six days,
and that doesn't include the few weeks spent recovering from
a rattlesnake bite that almost killed him. The literal journey
had a marked effect on his musical one. In December,
he dropped Operation Wake Up rap Up, or concept album
about a superstar songwriter. In the midst of a nervous breakdown.
(01:05):
But now he's back and he's all about the positive.
His new single, Mama always told me as a joyful
burst of energy in an uncertain time. I'm so happy
to welcome Mike Posner. Whatever, Mike, thank you so much
for taking the time today. Your new song, Mama always
told me. It's a blast of positivity and a really
scary and uncertain time. And you said you wrote this
(01:25):
track of ways back. What made you decide that the
time was right right now for it? Oh? Man? I
love albums, Jordan. You know I make albums like I don't.
No one listens to him, and so I make a
I'm a make an archaic art form. I'm in love
with it. But you know, a part of making albums
is real albums. For example, when I finished the songs,
(01:48):
I have at least three months more work to figure
out the order of the songs and the transitions between
them all, etcetera. So a part of making real albums
is sometimes you gotta make a real tough decision and go,
this is a great song, but it doesn't belong on
this album. It doesn't fit. And so I made a
lot of those decisions over the last five ten years,
(02:11):
and sometimes you've got some great songs that they'll fit
on your album, and this this is one of those
songs and just didn't fit on A real good Kid,
didn't fit on Keep Going Our Operation Wake Up. But
I always loved this song. It's made me want to dance,
so here it is. I totally agree. It's so uplifting
and fun. And when I first heard it, I thought
I heard tinges of Maroon five and the lo and
(02:33):
Behold Room five guitarist James Valentine's track, How did he
get involved? You guys go way back to to you
co writing Sugar? How did he get involved with the track?
James has been a friend who introduced me to James.
I don't know how I met James. I thank god
I did. I really like him. He came over my
house and he worked on my album at Night Alone,
(02:57):
which the album that had I took a pill bees
in on it, and James and I wrote a song
together called one hell of a Song. That was the
first thing we did together and just love each other.
Man just became friends, and um, you know this song.
Mom always told me that that's out Now it's really
a product of this house. This house that I used
(03:18):
to rent in Venice is a kind of cookie house,
is like a hundred years old, and it's in Venice,
a bike ride away from the beach from the Pacific Ocean,
and it became kind of a hangout house. One summer,
James would come over. Adam Freeman lived down the street,
come over all the times, one of my favorite producers,
(03:38):
and Pete Kuzma, Jacob Sasny. We all just come over,
hang out, We meditate, we we make music, we go
we see the sunset. You know, it's a lot of
times we take a dip in the ocean. And one
day James was over and he just picked up the
guitar started playing this riff. I just start hearing the melodies,
(03:59):
and the naj came over and saying on it, did
some lyrics on it. James went outside, took a break.
He saw her, his friend Kate, who's apparently was my neighbor,
and he said come over. Her and her friend came
over to end up singing on the hook. You know,
it's a group vocal take care of yo. So that's
just how it happens, just a product of product of
(04:21):
our friendships. You know, all these people that love each other.
You know, we just made this one day and I
love it. Man. I love this song. I love the chorus.
I mean the positive message is just laid right out there.
I mean, live your life, Shine your life. All those
things that your mother would actually say to you tell
me about her. Maybe not exactly in those words. She
might not rhyme when she said, but yeah, basically, I
(04:45):
think my mom is My mom is a Detroit hard
rock you know, she's she's somebody like got it out
of the mud, you know, to have a lot of opportunity,
basically work at two three jobs during college, put herself
through pharmacy, owned Turtle of Pharmacy in Detroit. I mean,
my mom, she's amazing. Man, mom is amazing. I thought
(05:07):
it was really cool because it highlights the struggles of
people who are sort of dealing with with anxiety and
depression and mental illness. And I think that's so important
to talk about after the year that we've had. I mean,
the pandemic has been deadly, not just because of the virus,
but also with those struggling with with anxiety and depression
and substance abuse issues. And I thought that was a
really cool comment on that. How did that project come
(05:30):
together for you? Operation Wake Up actually another old project.
I made it right after I made at Night Alone.
I made it my dad was six, so I was
living back in Detroit. I made it in their basement,
the basement I grew up in. Just in two weeks,
I had this wild idea of making an album that
(05:50):
was a fictional story through day of my life. All
the songs connect. And it was a real challenge as
a writer. You know, I'm a writer. I think that's
the thing most people don't realized. Like I spent most
of my time alone in rooms writing, you know, And
so it was a real challenge for me as a writer.
Can can I put off an album that's musical as
(06:11):
choruses and and pre choruses all of these things and
still it sounds good, but have it have a narrative
arc from beginning middle end and in about forty minutes
and it's just a wildly dark, ridiculous, weird, twisted project.
It's all fiction, and which is made more disturbing that
(06:31):
I was able to make make that stuff up. But
jam I was really proud of the writing. But you know,
it's just so dark. You know, we won't give away
the ending, but it's just really dark project. And I
wasn't sure I wanted to put it out, and I
just realized, you know, my job is not to curate myself.
I am who I am, and it's certainly a hell
of a lot of darkness in me. In my life
(06:54):
is also a lot of light too, you know, that's
part of me. So I'm not supposed to write all
these so long and then just only put out the
happy one. I was supposed to put out both. When
a Hertzog said the poet must not avert his eyes,
what's that mean? That means that if you're a real poet,
you look at what's beautiful, and you share what's beautiful.
You help others to see what's beautiful about life and reality,
(07:15):
but you also very honest about was ghastly and disgusting
and horrible about life, because both those things are are real.
How How has the last year changed you? It's been
so transformative for all of us for so many different reasons.
How is it? How is one touched you? Probably in
in really subtle ways. I can't maybe even I don't
(07:39):
really recognize, you know, all the normal things, like you know,
you don't hug or touch as much. I think that
affects all of us. How it was a big hugger
all these things, you know, like I hug my friends
and my my family and whatnot. But so it's just
in those obvious ways. But you know, I think I've
(07:59):
been really bled. That's that I kind of stopped touring
a few years ago. You know, I walked across America
in twenty nineteen. I live in the mountains now, I'm
climbing a lot of mountains. So and in many ways,
you know, the pandemic hasn't affected my lifestyle that much.
In addition, as I touched on before, I spent a
lot of time alone in my life, so it's not
(08:20):
that sort of been in training for this in some respects.
So I'm pretty lucky, pretty blessed. I get to spend
a lot of time outside doing stuff. I'm definitely not
locked up inside the room. Um like some of my
friends are in l a and men I got, I
got no complaints. I'm just trying to, you know, keep
moving my life forward, become somebody I'm proud of. That's it,
(08:42):
you know. So what is the pandemic going on or not,
that doesn't change. I'm still every day working towards my goals.
And well a lot of people are making sour dough
bread and uh and banana bread. You you climbed No no, no, no, no,
no no no no, no no no. I just went
to base went to base camp. Excuse me with the
base camp a K too, which is still incredibly impressive
(09:02):
and cool. Though, what tell me, tell me more about
that experience, for it is very cool experience. For me,
I probably will never climb K two is much too dangerous.
I think, you know where my personal risk assessment is
for myself, too risky for me, especially where my skill
set is now. But it was cool. I was around,
(09:24):
you know, nobody had climbed K two in the winter before.
I was around some of the best climbers in the
world and the most beautiful mountains in the world. I
was there three days. It was also like really really horrible,
really tragical. You know, five of the people that I
met was there with they die. So it's just really
(09:44):
messed up. You know, obviously you're doing something really dangerous,
but it's still like really sad. No matter what. Wait, wait,
you couldn't, so my love, my heart just go up
to the US and stuff. Something that you do that's
(10:05):
just I think it's just so inspiring is that you
are always challenging yourself and pushing yourself. And I mean
your walk across the country is just so incredibly inspiring.
I'm sure you're sick of talking about it, but it's
so touching us, so many, myself included. And I think
it's it's so important to say that. You know, it's
easy for a lot of people to think, oh, well,
you know, he he's in shape. It must he makes
(10:27):
it look so easy. It must be easy for him.
He must wake up at four in the morning and
feel rare and ready to go. And I think it's
important to say, I imagine it wasn't easy for you.
It must have been hard every single day. And I
think that's important for people to know that that, you know,
if you can do it, they can do it too.
It's horror. It was horrible, you know. And people love
to give themselves excuse the way out, so they put
(10:49):
labels on other people, say he's different. You know. The
biggest one out here is oh, you you're rich. It
must be nice for you to walk across America. I
want to do something, but you're rich. I never do that.
I was just like, it made me laugh so hard,
because you know, it's a real small community people that
walk or run across America. They estimated about ten or
fifteen people do it every year, and it's a small amount.
(11:12):
It's a small group, so you you find out about
each other, you know. So I was in contact with
seven eight people that were running or walking the same
time as me. We all try to kind of support
each other, send each other positive messages, etcetera. None of
those people were rich. Man, those people have no money.
They're taking money to walk across America. It's very easy
(11:33):
for us to make excuses for ourselves and not saying
your goal should be to walk across America, because it
shouldn't be unless that's your goal. But the thought pattern
of it must be easy for him or must be
easy for him or her, that's poison. You should never
think that. You should never think that, because what you
should think is exactly what you said. Oh they did that,
(11:55):
that's possible. I could do it too. They're a man
or a woman or whatever the pronoun is, just like me,
you know, they got blood just like me as human,
and so if they could do what I can't do,
that's a healthier way of thinking. You take a take
a hard look at your reasons, man, take a hard
look at your reasons, because because nine times out of
(12:15):
ten our reasons are are excuses wearing pretty clothes. Yeah,
I mean, it's it's your mantra keep going that applies
to anyone no matter what you're doing, keep going, keep going.
I mean, I imagine you can't be the same having
done something so just so transformative of walking across the
(12:36):
entire continent. How how has that changed your perspective on
everyday life now that you've that, now that you've had
what about a year and a half to get reacclimated, Like,
how did that experience change your your outlook to it
just sort of your normal everyday life. I never reacclimated.
I had no interest in going back like it wasn't
I didn't go on vacation and I'm going back like
(12:57):
I didn't have a house. You know, I wasn't going
back to anything. I was moving forward and I'm still
moving forward in a lot of ways. I'm still on
the walk. I never went I never went to a
house and unpacked my stuff. I started climbing mountains two
weeks later. When I'm working on now and I just go,
I just keep going forward. In fact, you know, the
(13:18):
most the most important day, I think, after you, the
most important day during the goal of the project. I
think it's the day after the day after we're gonna
do the day after you're gonna you're gonna go party
with your friends. You're gonna get messed up. I wanted
my body, in my mind, my spirit to know when
(13:38):
I was walking across America that I was not done.
So I jumped in the Atlantic Ocean. My my walk
was over, but I was not over. I was not done.
So you know, as you imagine, my body was pretty
messed up at the time. My feet really really hurt.
I stand up like I'm eight years old, like it.
It hurt, and you us two thousand, eight hundred fifty
(14:01):
one miles the same motion. It hurt. But what I
did was I have is a little boxing gym, a
little hardcore boxing gym called CMC Boxing in Venice. It's
not like soccer, mom, Jim. It's like a gym. They
played Black Sabath. You walking you're gonna get work. And
I called Mark coach Marcello. I said, look, I know
(14:23):
this might sound crazy. Can you meet me there at
four thirty am tomorrow? He said, yes, Boxer, I can.
So the next day I was at that gym for
thirty I just needed needed to let myself know you're
not done. You're not done like Rocket, and so I
just moving forward. But to answer your question and like,
what what did it change for me? Because that's really
(14:45):
the essence to your question. I kind of made a
separate point. I apologize for that. But the thing I
take with me is is I did something hard. I
did something hard. You get you get good at doing
hard things, and you have a courage to do more
hard things by doing hard period. So I did other
hard things before that. Incrementally they'll tell you harder. So
(15:07):
if I have a big goal now or something crazy
not crazy with some I want to do that. Maybe
other people think it's crazy. I know I could do it.
I know it's not gonna be easy, but but I
know it's gonna be hard. But that's what I do.
I do hard things. So that's that's that's the gift
I get from it. No one understand that it's not
an outside trophy, that's an inside trophy, internal trophy. Well,
(15:29):
you're you're pushing yourself physically walking across the country and
climbing mountains. You're pushing yourself musically with writing big, longer
narrative pieces like Operation Wake Up. How are you pushing yourself? Now?
What's what's next for you? I haven't announced my next
for like big it's big to me. I'm also big
to you. Big athletic project I'm working on and I
(15:49):
started working on training for it about a year ago,
like I said, two weeks after my walk, So I'll
be announcing that soon. I'm really excited to kind of
like tell everyone what I've been working on. And then
as far as music, that's constant, that's constant, just digging
deeper and deeper as a human, increasing your my skills,
(16:09):
you know, because I'm somebody I have a have a
hip hop background. I started rapping when I was writing
my own songs and start making beats when I was
I think twelve or thirteen. I didn't start singing till
I was twenty. I didn't start playing guitar until twenty
four and start playing piano really tells twenty four. I'm
just increasing my skills, learning about music, theories, just just
(16:30):
all these kind of things you practice and they add
more colors to your palette. So when I sit down
to paint metaphorically speaking, and I sit down to paint,
I can do more things now, so many more things
than I could when I was, you know, fifteen. This
is how deep can you go? How how how beautiful
a piece of art can you make? You know, just
(16:50):
trying to make make beautiful things really musically. But it's
all tied. It's all. It's all one thing. You know,
whether I go to the top of the mountain, I
walk across America and I'm listening to the birds in
Illinois and recording MyPhone or you know, all these things.
It changed who you are, changed the place where you
that you right from, and change the artists you are.
(17:12):
So they all mixed together. Yeah, you know, the sort
of projects outside the studio and inside. Was there a
moment when you knew that that music would be such
a huge part of your life and would be such
a huge part of your gift to to the world. Yeah,
there was a moment. I think we were in seventh
or eighth grade and I was with my my homies
(17:33):
Aaron Webster and Ronnie Posey recipes, and we used to start,
we say, we're gonna freestyle tonight, you know, because we
heard about wrapping, free styling and stuff like I don't
know where for a TV whatnot, and so we what
we all we all found like little albums and stuff
that had instrumental sections to them that we could wrap
(17:56):
to put them on and start rap, trying to make
up the things as we go freestyling. And I remember
they started we did it, and they sort of felt
like that was fun, that was cool. And I remember
this feeling like I'm going to get great at that.
I'm never gonna I'm not gonna stop doing I'm gonna
get really good at that. And that's I never stopped.
Still doing it. That was probably eighteen years ago, still
(18:20):
doing it. I'm always curious with people who are are
able and sort of blessed with the ability to to
write music. What do you do when you're sitting down
to write and it's just not happening, like you're you know,
you're you're on your metaphorical walk and you're you take
a stumble and you just how do you do you
just try to press forward through pure force of creative
(18:40):
will do you take a step back and go meditate
or go do something else and hope that that kind
of primes your imagination, your creative pump. Like, what do
you do when you're having trouble finishing something? Well, that's
two different things, finishing or starting. So but but if
it's starting, I can always come up with something. But
most days it's not something I actually like. That's another
(19:02):
people realize it's like I've made eleven albums, but that's
only ten percent of the music I may. That's like
the timbers of music I made actually like the rest
of it, I don't like that much. And so there's
so much failure involved, man, so much failure, Like when
you're trying to do something great by your own standards great,
Like I'm not interested in anything good. I don't care
(19:25):
about anything good. But most of the time, when I
sit down to ray, it's just good. You know, it's
just good. I don't care, and I fail. So anyway,
that's that's not your question. Question is what I do
when I when you kind of feel blocked or you're
just only coming up with good stuff and you don't
really care. Or maybe in the fields is like derivative
of stuff you've already done that happens a lot to you,
(19:46):
Like I already wrote this song like this is that
this is part of version. This is like a worst
version of something I've already done. So one thing I
do is I change while I'm working with If I'm
working alone, which I do you a lot, I might
go right with my friend Adam, or I might go
right with James Valentine. You know I switched that up.
That's one that's like, that's easy. I think way bring
(20:09):
someone another humans energy into it. Or if it's the opposite,
I'm working with somebody else and you feel stuck, I
might go work alone, might go work alone. The thing
is me, I don't. I don't really, I don't you
ask me when I sit down to write. I don't
really sit down to write that much anymore. Maybe I
should a little bit more, but I mostly wait till
(20:29):
the thing just pop starts talking to me and I
just repeat, repeat what it says. You know. That being said,
there are many years where I wrote some right rose
song every single day, you know, so you couldn't get
those ten thousand hours but um, I don't know that
(20:56):
it's funny. I mean you were saying, how you know
you sometimes you sit down and you think only writing
something that's good, and I feel like that's what separates
you for most people. Most people will be thrilled to
sit down and write something that's just good, but you're
you're aiming for something better, for something more. No, I promise,
it's just Look, it's not that part. I don't think
(21:17):
it's that special about me. It's just I've been doing
this a long time, been I started. I started writing.
I was eight and thirty three, so what that's twenty
five years crazy, you know. And most of the people
I work with, they don't write. They not gonna sound right,
something that hurts your ear, you know. It sounds like
a coffin. Like we all like this is what we
do for our job professional. So it's it's always good.
(21:39):
We're not writing like horrible stuff, you know what I mean,
that's all it is. So it's always listenable, you know,
but it's not great most of the day's you know,
and great is by definition rare. So that's what that's
what we're interested in every day, and most days we fail.
It's gonna keep keep showing up. You never know what's
day you're write something great. Man. Another thing is, I'd
(22:03):
rather have one great song than ten thousand good songs.
Sometimes you gotta write ten thousand good songs to get
one great one. Thow. That's the rub you said when
when we first started talking that year. You're an album's guy,
you're working in albums. Did you have any on the
horizon fans can look forward to in the uh nuts
(22:25):
to distant future. I think I actually gonna drop a
little EP first. And the reason is that's like sometimes yeah,
like sometimes you gotta take songs off. So you've got
some songs that just never fit on an album. But
the great freaking great songs, you know, it's like you
gotta share this stuff means you can't just leave it
on your laptop. Uh. But I am working. I'm always
(22:49):
working on the next thing. I'm always working the next thing.
I'm old fashioned though. Man. I'll sit there right. I
like to write a lot of songs first. Yeah, maybe
for a year too, Maybe for a year or two, right, right,
fifty seventy five songs and sit down, sit down and
pick the best fifteen finished those and produced those and
(23:09):
then pick the best ten out of those, you know.
And so I'm still writing. I'm still writing for the
next thing, but I got I've written maybe I'm not sure.
I haven't counted songs, and probably like twenty closer twenty
songs for the next actual album, and I like like
(23:30):
six of them, like six of one, and I think
you're cool. So we'll see, we'll see. But you're just
gonna try to beat those, you know. This is the
harvesting process. This is the culling process that everything it's
growing now and then well the harvest soon. That's right,
that's right. My my last question, and my I've been
asking everybody's been talking to this, and it's been so
(23:51):
interesting to hear everybody's different takes on this. If you
could snap your fingers and have everything go back to normal,
normal and quotes whatever your definition of normal is pre pandemic,
all that's out the window, What would be the first
thing that you would do? Trips, you would take people,
you'd hug, restaurants you'd go to or something like that.
Right to note, one thing, man, I like to take uh,
(24:11):
I like to go to moto yoga on Labreya in
l a I'll miss that place, but I don't even
live in that CD, so I'm not sure I would
be there anyways. But I guess that's the number one thing,
or that hot yoga class. I think that's the first
time we've heard a hot yoga. That's a good one.
Are you get a lot of song ideas in shivasana?
And there? Man, I'll tell you what we'll get you.
(24:33):
We'll get you back there soon, hopefully. Fingers crossed. Oh Man, Mike,
thank you so much for your time today. I really
appreciate it. Oh Man, you got it. Thank you for
having me your answers. Thank you for being so just
open and kind and generous with not only your music
but your spirit today. It was just so great talking
to you. It really was a pleasure. Thank you. I
appreciate you. Jordan's I could tell it. I could tell
(24:55):
you take your job seriously, and I felt like you've
really seen like who I am. You under took time
to understand that. It was a blessing to me. So
I appreciate you. Buddy. Thank you right back. Hatcher Man,
Well you stay safe and um and you have a
wonderful rest of your day. Keep good right right back,
good peace. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside
(25:26):
the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio. For more
episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows, check
out the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Hello, everyone, Welcome to Inside the Studio on iHeart Radio.
My name is Jordan runt Dog. But enough about me now.
This is gonna be one of the most unique introductions
to this show because this is one of the most
unique guests we've had on this show. He's got brains
(00:21):
and musical brilliance. He started making waves as an undergrad
at Duke University before breaking out with hits like Cooler
than Me, Please Don't Go, and I Took a Pill
in Ibiza. He also made a name for himself as
a songwriter for Hire Co, writing smashes for the likes
of Justin Bieber and Maroon five. The back to back
deaths of his father and his friend of Vici led
him to take stock and reevaluate his life. He put
(00:43):
his career on hold to walk across the country. The
three thousand mile journey took a hundred and eighty six days,
and that doesn't include the few weeks spent recovering from
a rattlesnake bite that almost killed him. The literal journey
had a marked effect on his musical one. In December,
he dropped Operation Wake Up rap Up, or concept album
about a superstar songwriter. In the midst of a nervous breakdown.
(01:05):
But now he's back and he's all about the positive.
His new single, Mama always told me as a joyful
burst of energy in an uncertain time. I'm so happy
to welcome Mike Posner. Whatever, Mike, thank you so much
for taking the time today. Your new song, Mama always
told me. It's a blast of positivity and a really
scary and uncertain time. And you said you wrote this
(01:25):
track of ways back. What made you decide that the
time was right right now for it? Oh? Man? I
love albums, Jordan. You know I make albums like I don't.
No one listens to him, and so I make a
I'm a make an archaic art form. I'm in love
with it. But you know, a part of making albums
is real albums. For example, when I finished the songs,
(01:48):
I have at least three months more work to figure
out the order of the songs and the transitions between
them all, etcetera. So a part of making real albums
is sometimes you gotta make a real tough decision and go,
this is a great song, but it doesn't belong on
this album. It doesn't fit. And so I made a
lot of those decisions over the last five ten years,
(02:11):
and sometimes you've got some great songs that they'll fit
on your album, and this this is one of those
songs and just didn't fit on A real good Kid,
didn't fit on Keep Going Our Operation Wake Up. But
I always loved this song. It's made me want to dance,
so here it is. I totally agree. It's so uplifting
and fun. And when I first heard it, I thought
I heard tinges of Maroon five and the lo and
(02:33):
Behold Room five guitarist James Valentine's track, How did he
get involved? You guys go way back to to you
co writing Sugar? How did he get involved with the track?
James has been a friend who introduced me to James.
I don't know how I met James. I thank god
I did. I really like him. He came over my
house and he worked on my album at Night Alone,
(02:57):
which the album that had I took a pill bees
in on it, and James and I wrote a song
together called one hell of a Song. That was the
first thing we did together and just love each other.
Man just became friends, and um, you know this song.
Mom always told me that that's out Now it's really
a product of this house. This house that I used
(03:18):
to rent in Venice is a kind of cookie house,
is like a hundred years old, and it's in Venice,
a bike ride away from the beach from the Pacific Ocean,
and it became kind of a hangout house. One summer,
James would come over. Adam Freeman lived down the street,
come over all the times, one of my favorite producers,
(03:38):
and Pete Kuzma, Jacob Sasny. We all just come over,
hang out, We meditate, we we make music, we go
we see the sunset. You know, it's a lot of
times we take a dip in the ocean. And one
day James was over and he just picked up the
guitar started playing this riff. I just start hearing the melodies,
(03:59):
and the naj came over and saying on it, did
some lyrics on it. James went outside, took a break.
He saw her, his friend Kate, who's apparently was my neighbor,
and he said come over. Her and her friend came
over to end up singing on the hook. You know,
it's a group vocal take care of yo. So that's
just how it happens, just a product of product of
(04:21):
our friendships. You know, all these people that love each other.
You know, we just made this one day and I
love it. Man. I love this song. I love the chorus.
I mean the positive message is just laid right out there.
I mean, live your life, Shine your life. All those
things that your mother would actually say to you tell
me about her. Maybe not exactly in those words. She
might not rhyme when she said, but yeah, basically, I
(04:45):
think my mom is My mom is a Detroit hard
rock you know, she's she's somebody like got it out
of the mud, you know, to have a lot of opportunity,
basically work at two three jobs during college, put herself
through pharmacy, owned Turtle of Pharmacy in Detroit. I mean,
my mom, she's amazing. Man, mom is amazing. I thought
(05:07):
it was really cool because it highlights the struggles of
people who are sort of dealing with with anxiety and
depression and mental illness. And I think that's so important
to talk about after the year that we've had. I mean,
the pandemic has been deadly, not just because of the virus,
but also with those struggling with with anxiety and depression
and substance abuse issues. And I thought that was a
really cool comment on that. How did that project come
(05:30):
together for you? Operation Wake Up actually another old project.
I made it right after I made at Night Alone.
I made it my dad was six, so I was
living back in Detroit. I made it in their basement,
the basement I grew up in. Just in two weeks,
I had this wild idea of making an album that
(05:50):
was a fictional story through day of my life. All
the songs connect. And it was a real challenge as
a writer. You know, I'm a writer. I think that's
the thing most people don't realized. Like I spent most
of my time alone in rooms writing, you know, And
so it was a real challenge for me as a writer.
Can can I put off an album that's musical as
(06:11):
choruses and and pre choruses all of these things and
still it sounds good, but have it have a narrative
arc from beginning middle end and in about forty minutes
and it's just a wildly dark, ridiculous, weird, twisted project.
It's all fiction, and which is made more disturbing that
(06:31):
I was able to make make that stuff up. But
jam I was really proud of the writing. But you know,
it's just so dark. You know, we won't give away
the ending, but it's just really dark project. And I
wasn't sure I wanted to put it out, and I
just realized, you know, my job is not to curate myself.
I am who I am, and it's certainly a hell
of a lot of darkness in me. In my life
(06:54):
is also a lot of light too, you know, that's
part of me. So I'm not supposed to write all
these so long and then just only put out the
happy one. I was supposed to put out both. When
a Hertzog said the poet must not avert his eyes,
what's that mean? That means that if you're a real poet,
you look at what's beautiful, and you share what's beautiful.
You help others to see what's beautiful about life and reality,
(07:15):
but you also very honest about was ghastly and disgusting
and horrible about life, because both those things are are real.
How How has the last year changed you? It's been
so transformative for all of us for so many different reasons.
How is it? How is one touched you? Probably in
in really subtle ways. I can't maybe even I don't
(07:39):
really recognize, you know, all the normal things, like you know,
you don't hug or touch as much. I think that
affects all of us. How it was a big hugger
all these things, you know, like I hug my friends
and my my family and whatnot. But so it's just
in those obvious ways. But you know, I think I've
(07:59):
been really bled. That's that I kind of stopped touring
a few years ago. You know, I walked across America
in twenty nineteen. I live in the mountains now, I'm
climbing a lot of mountains. So and in many ways,
you know, the pandemic hasn't affected my lifestyle that much.
In addition, as I touched on before, I spent a
lot of time alone in my life, so it's not
(08:20):
that sort of been in training for this in some respects.
So I'm pretty lucky, pretty blessed. I get to spend
a lot of time outside doing stuff. I'm definitely not
locked up inside the room. Um like some of my
friends are in l a and men I got, I
got no complaints. I'm just trying to, you know, keep
moving my life forward, become somebody I'm proud of. That's it,
(08:42):
you know. So what is the pandemic going on or not,
that doesn't change. I'm still every day working towards my goals.
And well a lot of people are making sour dough
bread and uh and banana bread. You you climbed No no, no, no, no,
no no no no, no no no. I just went
to base went to base camp. Excuse me with the
base camp a K too, which is still incredibly impressive
(09:02):
and cool. Though, what tell me, tell me more about
that experience, for it is very cool experience. For me,
I probably will never climb K two is much too dangerous.
I think, you know where my personal risk assessment is
for myself, too risky for me, especially where my skill
set is now. But it was cool. I was around,
(09:24):
you know, nobody had climbed K two in the winter before.
I was around some of the best climbers in the
world and the most beautiful mountains in the world. I
was there three days. It was also like really really horrible,
really tragical. You know, five of the people that I
met was there with they die. So it's just really
(09:44):
messed up. You know, obviously you're doing something really dangerous,
but it's still like really sad. No matter what. Wait, wait,
you couldn't, so my love, my heart just go up
to the US and stuff. Something that you do that's
(10:05):
just I think it's just so inspiring is that you
are always challenging yourself and pushing yourself. And I mean
your walk across the country is just so incredibly inspiring.
I'm sure you're sick of talking about it, but it's
so touching us, so many, myself included. And I think
it's it's so important to say that. You know, it's
easy for a lot of people to think, oh, well,
you know, he he's in shape. It must he makes
(10:27):
it look so easy. It must be easy for him.
He must wake up at four in the morning and
feel rare and ready to go. And I think it's
important to say, I imagine it wasn't easy for you.
It must have been hard every single day. And I
think that's important for people to know that that, you know,
if you can do it, they can do it too.
It's horror. It was horrible, you know. And people love
to give themselves excuse the way out, so they put
(10:49):
labels on other people, say he's different. You know. The
biggest one out here is oh, you you're rich. It
must be nice for you to walk across America. I
want to do something, but you're rich. I never do that.
I was just like, it made me laugh so hard,
because you know, it's a real small community people that
walk or run across America. They estimated about ten or
fifteen people do it every year, and it's a small amount.
(11:12):
It's a small group, so you you find out about
each other, you know. So I was in contact with
seven eight people that were running or walking the same
time as me. We all try to kind of support
each other, send each other positive messages, etcetera. None of
those people were rich. Man, those people have no money.
They're taking money to walk across America. It's very easy
(11:33):
for us to make excuses for ourselves and not saying
your goal should be to walk across America, because it
shouldn't be unless that's your goal. But the thought pattern
of it must be easy for him or must be
easy for him or her, that's poison. You should never
think that. You should never think that, because what you
should think is exactly what you said. Oh they did that,
(11:55):
that's possible. I could do it too. They're a man
or a woman or whatever the pronoun is, just like me,
you know, they got blood just like me as human,
and so if they could do what I can't do,
that's a healthier way of thinking. You take a take
a hard look at your reasons, man, take a hard
look at your reasons, because because nine times out of
(12:15):
ten our reasons are are excuses wearing pretty clothes. Yeah,
I mean, it's it's your mantra keep going that applies
to anyone no matter what you're doing, keep going, keep going.
I mean, I imagine you can't be the same having
done something so just so transformative of walking across the
(12:36):
entire continent. How how has that changed your perspective on
everyday life now that you've that, now that you've had
what about a year and a half to get reacclimated, Like,
how did that experience change your your outlook to it
just sort of your normal everyday life. I never reacclimated.
I had no interest in going back like it wasn't
I didn't go on vacation and I'm going back like
(12:57):
I didn't have a house. You know, I wasn't going
back to anything. I was moving forward and I'm still
moving forward in a lot of ways. I'm still on
the walk. I never went I never went to a
house and unpacked my stuff. I started climbing mountains two
weeks later. When I'm working on now and I just go,
I just keep going forward. In fact, you know, the
(13:18):
most the most important day, I think, after you, the
most important day during the goal of the project. I
think it's the day after the day after we're gonna
do the day after you're gonna you're gonna go party
with your friends. You're gonna get messed up. I wanted
my body, in my mind, my spirit to know when
(13:38):
I was walking across America that I was not done.
So I jumped in the Atlantic Ocean. My my walk
was over, but I was not over. I was not done.
So you know, as you imagine, my body was pretty
messed up at the time. My feet really really hurt.
I stand up like I'm eight years old, like it.
It hurt, and you us two thousand, eight hundred fifty
(14:01):
one miles the same motion. It hurt. But what I
did was I have is a little boxing gym, a
little hardcore boxing gym called CMC Boxing in Venice. It's
not like soccer, mom, Jim. It's like a gym. They
played Black Sabath. You walking you're gonna get work. And
I called Mark coach Marcello. I said, look, I know
(14:23):
this might sound crazy. Can you meet me there at
four thirty am tomorrow? He said, yes, Boxer, I can.
So the next day I was at that gym for
thirty I just needed needed to let myself know you're
not done. You're not done like Rocket, and so I
just moving forward. But to answer your question and like,
what what did it change for me? Because that's really
(14:45):
the essence to your question. I kind of made a
separate point. I apologize for that. But the thing I
take with me is is I did something hard. I
did something hard. You get you get good at doing
hard things, and you have a courage to do more
hard things by doing hard period. So I did other
hard things before that. Incrementally they'll tell you harder. So
(15:07):
if I have a big goal now or something crazy
not crazy with some I want to do that. Maybe
other people think it's crazy. I know I could do it.
I know it's not gonna be easy, but but I
know it's gonna be hard. But that's what I do.
I do hard things. So that's that's that's the gift
I get from it. No one understand that it's not
an outside trophy, that's an inside trophy, internal trophy. Well,
(15:29):
you're you're pushing yourself physically walking across the country and
climbing mountains. You're pushing yourself musically with writing big, longer
narrative pieces like Operation Wake Up. How are you pushing yourself? Now?
What's what's next for you? I haven't announced my next
for like big it's big to me. I'm also big
to you. Big athletic project I'm working on and I
(15:49):
started working on training for it about a year ago,
like I said, two weeks after my walk, So I'll
be announcing that soon. I'm really excited to kind of
like tell everyone what I've been working on. And then
as far as music, that's constant, that's constant, just digging
deeper and deeper as a human, increasing your my skills,
(16:09):
you know, because I'm somebody I have a have a
hip hop background. I started rapping when I was writing
my own songs and start making beats when I was
I think twelve or thirteen. I didn't start singing till
I was twenty. I didn't start playing guitar until twenty
four and start playing piano really tells twenty four. I'm
just increasing my skills, learning about music, theories, just just
(16:30):
all these kind of things you practice and they add
more colors to your palette. So when I sit down
to paint metaphorically speaking, and I sit down to paint,
I can do more things now, so many more things
than I could when I was, you know, fifteen. This
is how deep can you go? How how how beautiful
a piece of art can you make? You know, just
(16:50):
trying to make make beautiful things really musically. But it's
all tied. It's all. It's all one thing. You know,
whether I go to the top of the mountain, I
walk across America and I'm listening to the birds in
Illinois and recording MyPhone or you know, all these things.
It changed who you are, changed the place where you
that you right from, and change the artists you are.
(17:12):
So they all mixed together. Yeah, you know, the sort
of projects outside the studio and inside. Was there a
moment when you knew that that music would be such
a huge part of your life and would be such
a huge part of your gift to to the world. Yeah,
there was a moment. I think we were in seventh
or eighth grade and I was with my my homies
(17:33):
Aaron Webster and Ronnie Posey recipes, and we used to start,
we say, we're gonna freestyle tonight, you know, because we
heard about wrapping, free styling and stuff like I don't
know where for a TV whatnot, and so we what
we all we all found like little albums and stuff
that had instrumental sections to them that we could wrap
(17:56):
to put them on and start rap, trying to make
up the things as we go freestyling. And I remember
they started we did it, and they sort of felt
like that was fun, that was cool. And I remember
this feeling like I'm going to get great at that.
I'm never gonna I'm not gonna stop doing I'm gonna
get really good at that. And that's I never stopped.
Still doing it. That was probably eighteen years ago, still
(18:20):
doing it. I'm always curious with people who are are
able and sort of blessed with the ability to to
write music. What do you do when you're sitting down
to write and it's just not happening, like you're you know,
you're you're on your metaphorical walk and you're you take
a stumble and you just how do you do you
just try to press forward through pure force of creative
(18:40):
will do you take a step back and go meditate
or go do something else and hope that that kind
of primes your imagination, your creative pump. Like, what do
you do when you're having trouble finishing something? Well, that's
two different things, finishing or starting. So but but if
it's starting, I can always come up with something. But
most days it's not something I actually like. That's another
(19:02):
people realize it's like I've made eleven albums, but that's
only ten percent of the music I may. That's like
the timbers of music I made actually like the rest
of it, I don't like that much. And so there's
so much failure involved, man, so much failure, Like when
you're trying to do something great by your own standards great,
Like I'm not interested in anything good. I don't care
(19:25):
about anything good. But most of the time, when I
sit down to ray, it's just good. You know, it's
just good. I don't care, and I fail. So anyway,
that's that's not your question. Question is what I do
when I when you kind of feel blocked or you're
just only coming up with good stuff and you don't
really care. Or maybe in the fields is like derivative
of stuff you've already done that happens a lot to you,
(19:46):
Like I already wrote this song like this is that
this is part of version. This is like a worst
version of something I've already done. So one thing I
do is I change while I'm working with If I'm
working alone, which I do you a lot, I might
go right with my friend Adam, or I might go
right with James Valentine. You know I switched that up.
That's one that's like, that's easy. I think way bring
(20:09):
someone another humans energy into it. Or if it's the opposite,
I'm working with somebody else and you feel stuck, I
might go work alone, might go work alone. The thing
is me, I don't. I don't really, I don't you
ask me when I sit down to write. I don't
really sit down to write that much anymore. Maybe I
should a little bit more, but I mostly wait till
(20:29):
the thing just pop starts talking to me and I
just repeat, repeat what it says. You know. That being said,
there are many years where I wrote some right rose
song every single day, you know, so you couldn't get
those ten thousand hours but um, I don't know that
(20:56):
it's funny. I mean you were saying, how you know
you sometimes you sit down and you think only writing
something that's good, and I feel like that's what separates
you for most people. Most people will be thrilled to
sit down and write something that's just good, but you're
you're aiming for something better, for something more. No, I promise,
it's just Look, it's not that part. I don't think
(21:17):
it's that special about me. It's just I've been doing
this a long time, been I started. I started writing.
I was eight and thirty three, so what that's twenty
five years crazy, you know. And most of the people
I work with, they don't write. They not gonna sound right,
something that hurts your ear, you know. It sounds like
a coffin. Like we all like this is what we
do for our job professional. So it's it's always good.
(21:39):
We're not writing like horrible stuff, you know what I mean,
that's all it is. So it's always listenable, you know,
but it's not great most of the day's you know,
and great is by definition rare. So that's what that's
what we're interested in every day, and most days we fail.
It's gonna keep keep showing up. You never know what's
day you're write something great. Man. Another thing is, I'd
(22:03):
rather have one great song than ten thousand good songs.
Sometimes you gotta write ten thousand good songs to get
one great one. Thow. That's the rub you said when
when we first started talking that year. You're an album's guy,
you're working in albums. Did you have any on the
horizon fans can look forward to in the uh nuts
(22:25):
to distant future. I think I actually gonna drop a
little EP first. And the reason is that's like sometimes yeah,
like sometimes you gotta take songs off. So you've got
some songs that just never fit on an album. But
the great freaking great songs, you know, it's like you
gotta share this stuff means you can't just leave it
on your laptop. Uh. But I am working. I'm always
(22:49):
working on the next thing. I'm always working the next thing.
I'm old fashioned though. Man. I'll sit there right. I
like to write a lot of songs first. Yeah, maybe
for a year too, Maybe for a year or two, right, right,
fifty seventy five songs and sit down, sit down and
pick the best fifteen finished those and produced those and
(23:09):
then pick the best ten out of those, you know.
And so I'm still writing. I'm still writing for the
next thing, but I got I've written maybe I'm not sure.
I haven't counted songs, and probably like twenty closer twenty
songs for the next actual album, and I like like
(23:30):
six of them, like six of one, and I think
you're cool. So we'll see, we'll see. But you're just
gonna try to beat those, you know. This is the
harvesting process. This is the culling process that everything it's
growing now and then well the harvest soon. That's right,
that's right. My my last question, and my I've been
asking everybody's been talking to this, and it's been so
(23:51):
interesting to hear everybody's different takes on this. If you
could snap your fingers and have everything go back to normal,
normal and quotes whatever your definition of normal is pre pandemic,
all that's out the window, What would be the first
thing that you would do? Trips, you would take people,
you'd hug, restaurants you'd go to or something like that.
Right to note, one thing, man, I like to take uh,
(24:11):
I like to go to moto yoga on Labreya in
l a I'll miss that place, but I don't even
live in that CD, so I'm not sure I would
be there anyways. But I guess that's the number one thing,
or that hot yoga class. I think that's the first
time we've heard a hot yoga. That's a good one.
Are you get a lot of song ideas in shivasana?
And there? Man, I'll tell you what we'll get you.
(24:33):
We'll get you back there soon, hopefully. Fingers crossed. Oh Man, Mike,
thank you so much for your time today. I really
appreciate it. Oh Man, you got it. Thank you for
having me your answers. Thank you for being so just
open and kind and generous with not only your music
but your spirit today. It was just so great talking
to you. It really was a pleasure. Thank you. I
appreciate you. Jordan's I could tell it. I could tell
(24:55):
you take your job seriously, and I felt like you've
really seen like who I am. You under took time
to understand that. It was a blessing to me. So
I appreciate you. Buddy. Thank you right back. Hatcher Man,
Well you stay safe and um and you have a
wonderful rest of your day. Keep good right right back,
good peace. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside
(25:26):
the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio. For more
episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows, check
out the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Death, Sex & Money
Anna Sale explores the big questions and hard choices that are often left out of polite conversation.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.