Gabe Rosales: From The Stage to the Cell and Back Again.

This week, Leslie talks to Gabe Rosales. Gabe was a rock start. Then an addict. Then in jail. Now he's a rock star who helps addicts and incarcerated people. Gabe and Leslie talk about Gabe's story, and also debate how best to heal victims and perpetrators.

Hosted by Leslie Dobson. Produced and edited by Liam Billingham. Mixed by Aaron Dalton.

Executive producers are Paul Anderson and Scott McCarthy for Workhouse Media.

The views expressed in this podcast episode are solely those of the guest speaker and do not reflect the views of the host or the production company.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Okay, you're here. My name is doctor Leslie and this
is Intentionally Disturbing. Today I got to speak with Gabe Risalees.
Gabe is an incredible bass player. He toured with j Lo,
but he was also in prison for a while. So
we're going to talk about the dynamics of the music industry,

(00:31):
but we're also going to talk about the realities of
prison and life after prison. I hope you enjoy the episode,
and I hope you learn a little bit about what's
real versus what you have been told in other news outlets.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Oh hey, you're here.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Welcome to Intentionally Disturbing. I'm doctor Leslie and I'm here
with Gabe Rosales. Now I could try and introduce you.
I'm gonna try. Okay, he's done some really bad things.
He was in prison, then he did some really good things.
He's still friends with some really bad people, and he's

(01:11):
going to change the world.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
That's part of it, for sure. That's on the agenda
for sure for today. Specifically, can you give us.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Kind of a brief intro of kind of who you are?

Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yes, yeah, I do lots of things. I am a
veteran of unspeakable things. Actually, this is Charlie Sheen's thing.
So I'm a professional musician by trade.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
I left that part out of course, yes, damn. I
was all like, oh gore.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Okay, Yeah, so just a professional musician, went on tour
right out of high school with a metal band. So
I basically kind of kind of grew up in my
early twenties, in my formative years, in my early adulthood,
on the road with a metal.

Speaker 4 (01:49):
Band, and but I grew up in an alcoholic household.

Speaker 3 (01:52):
So some of these bad habits kind of got worse
as I was touring and as the gigs got better
progressively in terms of like started playing with more high
profile acts, you know, Jennifer Lopez, send Off from Cypress Hill,
Sheena Easton, a bunch of different random people in the
pop world in Los Angeles.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
What was it like rolling with like such high, powerful,
big people.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
It was intimidating at first, But I think that's the
reason why I started getting into hard drugs was because
I could could deal with it by being drunk and
doing cocaine and just acting kind of crazy and deal
with what though, just like being young and having that
kind of and being in that situation and then also
being expected to perform a certain way, Like I really
think that like a lot of the addiction that the

(02:37):
pressure was, like you know, it's like being child kids starreds,
Like eventually you're gonna get old and you're not gonna
be relevant anymore. Nobody's gonna give a shit, and like, yeah,
you're a great musician now in nineteen and like everybody,
you're better than you know, most nineteen year olds. But
then as by the time you're twenty two, nobody gets
a shit because there's like a ten year old that
can kick your ass, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (02:57):
So it's like, so if.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
You're on like coke and Matthew performed really well, rest always.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
You can just shred. That's what it is, fingers burning.
So that's what it was. Well, but I mean, yeah,
I mean, and that just kind of came later too,
because I was playing with older musicians that weren't really
I was the youngest person on the tour and these
are seasoned musicians doing seasoned drugs, designer drugs, expensive expensive drugs.
And then of course sat Out Alive is you know,

(03:23):
the whole thing within itself. There's an after party after
sat Out Live, and then there's an after after party.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Oh yeah, like a freak off.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Not like that, no baby oil, but it was yeah,
it was dark, it was dimly lit.

Speaker 4 (03:36):
There was candles.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Is that like a Hollywood media music thing, like you
after party, after party, after party. I guess they're just
ruling out anyone who's not going to let you like
stick it in an orifice.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Oh yeah, it just gets weirder and weirder, and you're
allowed to just do weirder drugs.

Speaker 4 (03:52):
I don't even know if it's a Hollywood thing.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
I would just say, like I've as a maybe just
a drug addict entertainer thing, like because I've that kind
of was like the norm for things that I attended,
Like I have friends that were DJs, and the same
thing would happen when they were djaying, like yeah, it
was like the after party of the DJ, you know,
and then like Okay, now we're going to this warehouse
and I'm gonna DJ some more. We're gonna do another set,
and like you do more drugs.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
There more of a drug addict lead thing than a
profession led thing maybe ish.

Speaker 4 (04:19):
Yeah for sure.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
And it's just like and then also being able to
you know, I mean the whole SNL thing was like
obviously the cast members that partook in those things, they
could do it without being judged if they wanted to,
you know, like the drugs, like the harder drugs and
stuff like that. So then I started kind of going
on that world and hell started deteriorating. When I was

(04:42):
twenty five years old, the doctors told me I had
the liver of a seventy year old man, and so then, yeah,
it just progressively got worse.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
I ended up getting in trouble.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
I got locked up for a little bit, and that
was a catalyzing moment in my life where you know,
I got to see the criminal justice system up close
and personal and experience the racial dynamics in California carcial facilities,
to understand the politics, you know, the racial dynamics, the gangs,
the designations, if you will. There's a hierarchy of criminality
in prison and carcial spaces. Right, some crimes are looked upon,

(05:14):
you know, less favorably than others are, and so I
learned about that, got out of jail and were recorded.
But my first solo album went back to school because
I had no formal education. Right out of high schools
on tour.

Speaker 4 (05:28):
And then out of you recorded yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
Solo album, right did at two thousand and nine is
when I released my first album with a bunch of
different people, you know, just kind of musicians and you know,
high profile musicians that I'd worked with over over time.

Speaker 4 (05:40):
And then went back to school.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
I got a bachelor's degree in criminology at the University
of California, Irvine, and that was I graduated twenty seventeen,
and I got into law school in twenty eighteen actually,
and I started teaching in a prison because I found
this amazing you know, nonprofit jail guitar doors and we're
in the shirt right now. It's a reability to have
songwriting class that where you go in and some of

(06:05):
the guys get guitars and we you know, kind of
take them as trajectory through their life.

Speaker 4 (06:09):
And so I found that in twenty eighteen. It changed
my life.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
I withdrew from law school, applied to a PhD program,
and now I'm in a fifth year doctoral student in
University of California, Airvine in the criminology department, and I'm
studying prison policy, housing policy, and all this stuff like that,
and I working on a bunch of projects and trying
to further theoretical frameworks and all this other academic jarget
and stuff like that. So, yes, life is full and

(06:34):
it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
And you've got a lady and kids.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
I do, Yes, Yes, been with the same female for
twenty one years, two step daughters twenty.

Speaker 4 (06:42):
Four twenty eight.

Speaker 3 (06:43):
Very proud of both of them, and it's just a
It keeps me grounded, you know, and it keeps me
and I appreciate them more. I'm working in with prison
guys in prison and stuff. Just knowing where people came from,
you know, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
I have so many questions. Yes, Okay, what's the worst
thing you've ever done?

Speaker 4 (07:01):
Oh? Man, the worst? Almost murdered two people? I think
that's pretty bad.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
What happened? They didn't the mission?

Speaker 4 (07:10):
Well, no, I was just you know, just being drunk
and angry.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
And this is one of the things that kind of
gave me empathy for people that I work with inside now,
is because it's actually pretty easy to almost kill people.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
You'd be surprised, really, yeah, if you're super angry.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
I mean, I mean, well, imagine being at a bar
and somebody you're getting an altercation and you hit somebody
and they fall back and hit their head and they're dead, right,
that kind of thing that happens.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
What went down with your almost murder just you.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
Know, through a temper tantrum when somebody told me something
I didn't like, the domestic vance thing, you know what
I mean, and you know, started throwing things and then
uh yeah, and then you know.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
Somebody had cared about got hurt.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
And uh and then I left and tried to find
the other person and tried to hurt them too, And
so I wasn't actually arrested that night.

Speaker 4 (07:59):
I ended up having a turn myself in. I was incarcerated.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
I actually got a really good deal on the you
know this what they call wobblers in California could go
fell into or misdemeanor, and because I didn't really have
any prior criminal history other than a duy, then you know,
I was able to get kind of this sentence reduced
from years to months in county jail.

Speaker 4 (08:19):
So I actually just a jail time, no prison time.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
But I was there for a little bit, you know,
and I got pretty acclimated to the carcerle politics.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
You know, I want you to explain the difference between
jail and prison, but also I want to just understand
a little bit more about the assault that took place,
like were their weapons, like what what happened that leads
to that kind of sentence. And then being in jail.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
I threw a chair, a plate, I started, I wanted
to break everything in the house. And so a big
heavy wooden chair hit you know, someone I cared about
in the head, and they had to go to the
hospital and and that was it. And then I went,
I got a knife. I went to someplace else to
go find somebody else. I was in a drunken rage.

(09:07):
I was really hurt, you know, anger being like the
secondary emotion. I was most mostly hurt and angry, you know,
or mostly hurt and stuff. And I mean, I grew
up in an alcoholic household too, and so I've seen
my my dad. I mean that there's no excuse for this,
of course, but I think that was how I kind
of first saw, you know, somebody handling bad news my

(09:28):
one mother and mother got divorced from my dad and
she gave him the papers. He threw went to a
rage and he started throwing her across the table and
threw out the door, and he got pretty violent too.

Speaker 4 (09:37):
That was one of my worst memories as a child
eight years old, seeing that you.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
Saw your dad throw your mom across the table.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yes, yeah, when and you know, and he wasn't I
don't think he was even drunk at that time. So
there's lots of things I did too while I was
drinking that you know, violent, no acts that I did
when you know, I'd get drunk and angry, and so
I only got caught for a fraction of what I did,
So I felt like I kind of made out like
a bandit, I guess. Yeah, but you know, it's a

(10:07):
wake up call, you know, it's like you can't you
have to face that at some point. And I had
so many other unresolved traumas and different things that I
hadn't ever dealt with before, and this was like a
real wake up call, you know, getting being incarcerated and
having all their freedom taken aways is uh, it's eye
opening and makes it feel helpless. And I was very
fortunate too though, because I had a you know, an

(10:29):
end date. I knew when it was gonna end, you know,
I knew when I was gonna getting out.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
So what was it like when you sobered up and
you were incarcerated.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah, that was I woke up crying multiple times, you know,
just because it's like you the feeling of not you know,
you can't go.

Speaker 4 (10:43):
Anywhere, and you're in the cell and you're and the reality.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Actually a lot of my first album was based off
of the experiences and things that I was you know,
that happened while I was incarcerated. It's like your family
comes to visit you on the weekends. They're behind a
piece of glass. They care about you, they tell you
they love you, but in reality, like they can't do anything.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
You know, like to physically help you or like protect you.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
So you have to pick aside, right, and like at
this time in California, you know, the traditional like I
call them traditional like prison politics, the general population, the GP. Right,
it's like separated racially Mexicans, black, white, others, right, and
so you're with your own group of people, your own
your own brace. And so those are the only people

(11:28):
that I considered family really at the time when I
was inside, because that's that's who takes care of you.
You know, your family can't do anything for you. They
protect you, they are the ones, but then they also
call on you to do certain things right, because that's
your payment back to the group.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
This is in jail end in prison.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
That's correct.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yes, so jail is technically in California, what's supposed to
be a year or under now because.

Speaker 4 (11:50):
Of a different legislation, Prop.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Forty seven realignment, some people that have, you know, sentences
that last five to ten years, they could spend that
in county, which is a big problem that it's horrible
because I mean, jails aren't so jails are supposed to
be a short term, right, People get arrested, they get
put in jail, they wait for the court date, they
go there. It's supposed to be short term, like you said,
because and the reality is that I think, well that's

(12:13):
two thirds of the people that are in jails have
not been convicted of a crime yet. And that's the
whole bail you know controversy where it's like if you
can't afford to get out, if you can't afford to
pay your bail, then you have to stay in jail.
So it's kind of like punishing you for not having
money even though you haven't been convicted of a crime yet.
So it's kind of this transitory place you're waiting in court,

(12:33):
you know, in jail to go to court and then
once you get sentenced, depending on your sentence, you'd either
stay in jail if it's short, or you go upstate
to prison where you serve your entire term out there.
But now, because of you know, certain legislation in California,
you could serve up to five to ten years in
county jail.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
So I've never seen so many flaccid penises as I
have in the Los Angeles County jail.

Speaker 4 (12:56):
Yes, yes, lascid are.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Well when they came in, no, when they got medicated, yes.

Speaker 4 (13:04):
They got medicated, yes.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
But I mean the jail was they referred to it
as a monkey pat Yes.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
Well, I mean one hundred percent is like that.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
You know, it's like and you don't see I mean
at least for I mean, I'll give you my perspective. Like,
you know, I didn't see very many females, right the
only time I was taking blood pressure medication.

Speaker 4 (13:22):
At the time, I was two hundred and six pounds.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
I'm only five six, So I guess the good thing
about jail was I was working out of it, That's right.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
I looked anyone just listening, super tall.

Speaker 4 (13:32):
Super tall, a baller. I can dunk.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
So I mean, you know, I didn't see females very often.
So yeah, that's why I didn't have a Most people
have flast pieces.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
But oh so that you would assume they'd all be
more erect something.

Speaker 4 (13:45):
Yeah, it depends on you know, the place.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
If I walked, yes, yes, well so for example, you know,
I was on medication while I was there, and so
there's a medication girl. There's a big line of guys
waiting to get their medication at the front door, right and.

Speaker 4 (14:01):
And it was, you know, it was like clockwork. Every
single time you go to see the meds girl.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Guys turn around and we can make sure that they
get looked good before, you know, before they go see
the meds girl. And then they walk away and they're like, oh, yeah,
I think she likes me. And it's just like, yeah,
she likes all two hundred and eighty of us for sure.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
I remember, because the cologne would be so strong, and
I would be like, why are you spending your money
on cologne and you don't have a lot of money
and you're locked in here. Yeah, like buy a sausage.
They loved buying sausages, and they I would just be
hit every time I walked in with all these guys
coming up and saying hi with their cologne.

Speaker 4 (14:33):
Yeap, and they're smelling your perfume too, because that permeates
the entire.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
Building, you know what I mean, like which I did
on purpose. Yeah, I wore that on purpose.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
Well, thank you for on behalf of the guys inside,
because it's seriously probably made the entire week.

Speaker 4 (14:44):
I'm telling you the truth for sure.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
So how long were you in there?

Speaker 4 (14:48):
Just months? It was really a short time.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, yeah, it could have been life.

Speaker 4 (14:52):
It could have been or I think seven to ten
years is what I was looking at.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
And the charge was.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
I gave a solid deadly weapon battery for the corpor injury.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
Uh, break that down, aggravated assault with the deadly weapon.
What was the weapon? The knife at the end.

Speaker 4 (15:06):
Well, no, I never got busted for that.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
It was a chair, all everything I was throwing at
the house when I was going crazy. And and then yeah,
and then yeah, battery and with a corporal injury because.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
You know, in corporal injury it means.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
Like a bodily harm, so go to the hospital, get staples.
So yeah, nothing I'm proud of. And that's that's one
of the things too about you know, people that are
serving time for these kinds of things, is that it's
the worst moment of your life.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
It's you at your worst place.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
And so, you know, I feel I've been sober for
seventeen years now, so I feel like I've changed.

Speaker 4 (15:47):
I don't even consider myself the same person as I
worked before.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
I can't imagine being in prison still serving a sentence
on something like that because of how different I am
as a human being, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
So, well, that's a good question to ask. You work
in prison now and you're with people who committed rape,
serial killing, murderer or a serial killer? Serial killer is
two or more kills and a.

Speaker 4 (16:11):
Yeah, I think it's line or something like that.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
Yeah, Or if you do it a couple of times,
like at different times, it's not like you know you
you do it all at one time.

Speaker 4 (16:19):
It's different.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
But you're in with guys who are considered serial killers, yes,
and rapists, and you're working with them now and some
of them did it when they were really young. Yes,
So is that a part of how you I don't
want to say justify it, but is that allow yourself
to empathize and try to treat them.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
Yeah, well, so the way the way I kind of
work it is like I don't necessarily look at myself
because I'm not a clinician, So I'm not treating them necessarily.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
I'm just trying to help them process.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
You're schooling them, yeah in.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
Some ways, well in a couple different ways, because that's
a musician, right, Like they kind of as a professional musician,
Like they look up to me in terms of my
musical ability, but also my story. And I try to
like advocate for sobriet because drugs are prevalent in prison
in carcal spaces. So if guys are, you know, on drugs,
then I want them to help help them get sober then,
like I try to be that positive influence on them

(17:10):
when we're in class, but also just to show them
there's a different way to live and that they're not
They're not they're worse mistake, right, there's a lot of
the guys have your right, they did commit their crimes
when they're very young. And I mean now, one of
my colleagues at U see I I mean her research
specifically shows and it you know, they use it in

(17:30):
court cases to end the death penalty. For youth as
well as life without the possibility parole with youth, because
your brain is not developed right before, all the way
up to twenty five. And so a lot of the
guys that were incarcerated when they're fifteen to you know,
twenty four, their brains weren't fully developed. And then you know,
there's so many people to argue about that. So they
were an adult legally eighteen years old. But if you were,

(17:53):
I mean, imagine having fetal alcohol syndrome. You know, your
parents did drugs, and then you stop growing, you have
an eighth grade EDU and then there's just so many
factors that are involved with this.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Is it different being in prison with fellow maids and like,
okaying what they did versus now coming in with this
knowledge and life experience trying to help them. How does
it change your perspective of the heinous crimes they committed?

Speaker 3 (18:19):
Well, I mean, I consider like my situation right, and
it's like I feel like I if I would have
kept going on the same path, or if I just
would have been if I would have thrown one more thing,
or if you know, I just would have hit somebody
in the right way, then like I would could have
been them very much like often, like I realized that
it just it's kind of luck that I that didn't
happen to me. So that's how I was able to empathize,

(18:41):
you know, generally with people some of the crimes. Obviously
I can't relate to it all. It's just it's so dark.
The thing is, as though I don't we don't get
into in my class specifically, I try to avoid knowing
what they did because we take them through a trajectory
of their life history, kind of like childhood, trauma, anger
and resentment, account of ability, responsibility. Everybody writes in their

(19:02):
journals about this, and then we make a song out
of it, so it's like rehabilitated music therapy, right, So
we don't necessarily have to get into the nature of
the crimes they committed. Sometimes the guys don't want to
talk about that. They might just talk about their victims.
So it's kind of easier to kind of understand that
because I feel like I have, you know, I have
victims too, right, and in more ways than one, not
just from the crime that I committed, but also just

(19:22):
from being a scumbag, like you know, when I was
doing drug selling drugs, and just being violent and being
angry drunk.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Right, do you think though that the psychopathic guys in
there can be rehabilitated.

Speaker 4 (19:35):
It's a good question.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
I mean, just like help them get their rock softster music.

Speaker 4 (19:40):
Yeah, well that's one of the things.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
It's like sometimes My whole point is it's like to
help them at least creatively understand their emotions. So at
least if anything, they have emotions. Well, oh yeah, sociopaths
they don't.

Speaker 4 (19:53):
Yeah. Well, I mean, well what do you think because.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
You see them jamming out they like music, You feel.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
Emotion coming out, yes, and there's there's passion in the music.
So if anything is just like an art form or
something that they like to get good at or have
fun with.

Speaker 4 (20:06):
Right.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
But I don't work with that many guys like that.
Like I wouldn't say serial killers necessarily most of them,
you know a lot of them are you know guys
that are you know, old gang members, you know, which
I can relate to in some ways domestic violent stuff
or they you know, they hurt somebody like that and
then or they were young and you know, they made
some horrible decisions. So I don't really have a lot

(20:27):
of sociopaths that I work with that I think that
I would be able to look at. There's only one
dude that I know that I'm you know, he kind
of textbook, I think, where he's just a good looking guy,
very charismatic, and.

Speaker 4 (20:39):
I'm like, okay, yea, I might have to take an
alarm when I go into work with this dude.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
But does he wear very large glasses?

Speaker 4 (20:44):
No he doesn't, Okay, No.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Nor is he Caucasian.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
No he isn't. He isn't.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
But it's like, we'll see. I mean, I'm not sure
he's a he's a drummer. So most drummers of sociopaths.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
Why because they just want to.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
Everything now kidding, they're not real musicians, just kidding, family.

Speaker 4 (21:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
No, So I don't really work with people like that necessarily,
but we uh, my class has change every ten weeks,
so I get a you know, a different dose of
different people in different crimes. But I try to avoid
for the most part. Some of my guys are high
profile though, so it's like it's there's no way to avoid,
you know, knowing what they did because it's been in
the news. Yeah, you know, so, but my job, they're

(21:24):
already in prison, so my job isn't to go in
there in judgment further, right, and then ninety five percent
of the people that are incarcerator are going to be
at some point, so I want to make sure that
they have some kind of creative way to process these
emotions anger. And then also, I mean, I can't tell
you how many times guies just fall apart and crying.
You know, when they get to childhood, right, you start
talking about what they dealt with as victims themselves, right

(21:45):
before they victimize somebody else.

Speaker 4 (21:48):
That makes sense, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, I mean I have I go both ways with it, like, yeah,
a lot of people are victimized, and they don't go
kill people exactly. They don't read people. We're going to
take a quick break and we'll be right back. I
personally always had a really hard time kind of justifying
being there for them, and I put it more towards
my profession. But I'm wondering if maybe I if I

(22:13):
had been an inmate at one point, if I had
been welcomed in like you were, and you had to
experience like the welcoming staff, I would say, like the
horrible staff, and you know, without the empathy. Yeah, if
I would feel different.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
Yeah, I mean it's weird being well, yeah, being dehumanized.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
And it's like that's always the kind of the argument, right,
It's like, why humanize these people when they have done
such horrible things to society? But yeah, as victims, you know,
some I mean honestly some, you know, some people never
had a chance. I have a guy that I work
with that was as a baby, was found in the
trash can, right, and it's like, you know, just growing
up knowing that, and then and then also getting possibly

(22:54):
getting abused by foster youth I mean foster home of
your adopted parents or some like that, you know, being
sexually abused by them too. A lot of people just
didn't have a chance. I know, that's not an excuse.
I just try to have empathy for them while they're there.
They are in prison, so it's not like they're out
just walking around and getting you know, a bunch of
free stuff, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (23:15):
I mean, in prison, they are getting some free stuff.
But how did you.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
Feel when you were in jail, and how did you
feel about the staff and if they cared about you,
and like, would you have made changes?

Speaker 4 (23:28):
Yeah, And this is a long time ago too.

Speaker 3 (23:29):
So I mean, this is one thing I always tell
people when I talk about prison or any carsonal space,
is that we have this idea as a society that
you know, the correctional staff, the deputies, the correctional officers
are there to keep all the evil inside these walls.
And but a lot of the time, you know, I mean,
the correctional staff themselves are you know, I mean doing
hating the stuff.

Speaker 4 (23:50):
They're selling drugs, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
I mean, you know this like one hundred percent, like
abusing sexually, the people that live there, selling phones, selling drugs,
especially now with fentanyl and spice and all that stuff
like that. I mean, and we know this for a fact.
It's like a fake marijuana that people smoke and that
like kind of makes.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
You crazy, like a clove, but with like basalts.

Speaker 4 (24:11):
Yes, I guess something like that, something that makes you
smash your head into the wall. I guess right.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
I've never done before, So it's one of the few
I got. I got sober before all this crazy stuff
started coming out. But I mean, we know for a
fact that like the correction officers bringing in drugs, because
during COVID they stopped all visitation. You know, they always
blame it on the visitors, right, family members are bringing
in drugs. All visitations stopped during COVID and guys were
still overdosing on fentanyl.

Speaker 4 (24:37):
So it's like the only people that are there the
correctional staff.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
So and a lot of the time it's the night stuff. Yeah,
is more lax and steel water bottles can get through
metal detectors with the lush in them.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
Mm hmm, oh yeah, I mean one hundred percent. You know.
It's like that's part of the whole get down for
those guys.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
It's like and they make a lot of money, you know,
I mean on top of the six figures that they're
ready to make, and they have a high school diploma.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
So what kind of stuff do they sell and how
much they charge?

Speaker 3 (25:02):
They sell phones for thousands and thousands of dollars, you know,
and and they can confiscate them like around Christmas time
and then resell them back to the same people.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
And they don't like the inmates don't get pissed and
beat them up.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
No, they I mean they get very angry, but it's
just kind of the whole It's it's this reciprocal ecosystem.
And that's why I always start explaining people that these
costule spaces aren't what you imagine of being, you know,
the law enforcement or keeping the evil in. It's like
this ecosystem of competing agendas, right, and people are feeding
off of each other at all times. So you know,

(25:36):
somebody that's incarcerated might make the CEO's life easier by
doing something like making sure that this other drama squashed.
I mean when I was in jail, I mean, we
did all the discipline ourselves, right, Like the faction that
I was with. It's like if somebody messes up, like
they get the ship beat out of them by us.

Speaker 4 (25:52):
Right, don't We don't want to get the law enforcement
involved in anything. Like we run our own program.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
Like how do you like get your job or your role?
Do you?

Speaker 3 (26:00):
I mean I was just kind of assigned once I
showed up, you know, like cube rep. I was in
charge of my cell, you know, which is like big
responsibilities like divving out a toilet paper and yeah it
was a big, big deal.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
So who gave you that role?

Speaker 3 (26:14):
The heads of the higher ups when I when I
got in, do they have titles? Yeah, it's like the
shot caller.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
I mean the compound, is it a gang or is
it just yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
Mean it's considered a gang, you know, south Side.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
I mean I was running with the Southsiders Sunnis, but
a south Sider I wasn't. Actually I've never been gang
involved ever. Like I wasn't part of the gang. I
just but when you show up, the first thing they
ask you is, uh, you know me, I'm I I
could be white passing, you know, I mean, but I
am Mexican hundred percent. You know, my parents met Mexico City.
My mom's second generation, my dad's first generation. I mean,

(26:45):
I'm first generation on my dad's side. And so when
I got walked in, they said, are you a homie?

Speaker 4 (26:51):
Are you a wood?

Speaker 3 (26:51):
You know, which means homie means are you part of
the Southern chapter? You know, do the Mexican Mafia or
the south Siders or a wood being peckerwood white like
why you know what I mean? So then so I said,
you know, I'm homie, And so they go, Okay, we're
gonna put you in this cell. You're the you're the
cube reps. So you're gonna be responsible for all the
guys in here in this cell. And because it was

(27:12):
like congregate housing kind of. There was like eight people
I think in my in my cube, my cell, and
and so I was responsible for having to wake them up,
you know what I mean, like for count time, because
count time happens multiple times a day. If they're not up,
you know, ready for count then then it's my responsibility.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
And then I got to make sure that they're acting right.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
And you do this because you don't want retaliation or
you want community and protection.

Speaker 4 (27:34):
It's it's community and protection.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, but it's like it's just kind of like you're
the dues you pay for like you know, running I mean,
being part of this group that runs the facility, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (27:42):
And plus it's like and they help you out, like
they took care of me. I mean, I can't lie
about that.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
Like I had a really horrible mattress when I got there,
and this they gave me a brand new, nice one,
Like I got a nice pillow later.

Speaker 4 (27:53):
The inmates, right, the guys in.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
My gang or whatever, my faction, right, the Southsiders they
hooked me up with, you know, and then good like
commissary coffee if you need something, so you've got.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Like this the custody officers in this world of them
taking advantage and running this scheme, and then you've got
kind of the inner inmate.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
Worlds, those politics and those guys running stuff too. But
that's I mean, I mean, arguably the residents, the people
that are living there are running everything because we're the
ones who do the discipline.

Speaker 4 (28:26):
We're the ones who keep the peace, you know. I
mean the correction office is like, how does that happen?

Speaker 1 (28:31):
They have they well, they've guns, they've batons, at least.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
They have batons, and some of them have guns, like
in prison, depending on the level of yard you're on,
like the level of prison yard, there's a level two, three, four,
four being the highest level, right, Yeah, they have live
ammunition on the higher you know, security levels. Then as
you kind of, guys have a certain level of points
when they go to prison, and then over time good
behavior their points drop and they're able to drop in

(28:54):
security and so then the correction officers don't have like
live ammunition after that.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
But how do you how do you have so much
power to decide on mattresses? And is it they just
some people work as trustees and that helps.

Speaker 3 (29:08):
Yes, Yeah, everybody like at least on the like where
I was. You know, there's different people that have different jobs.
There's guys that work in the kitchen. I had a
violent crime, so I wasn't allowed to work in.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
The kitchen because the weapons.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
Yeah, exactly, knives and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
And then oh, I have to interrupt you and ask
yes anytime that the inmates would cook, because in La
County Jail, we would all eat in the same cafeteria.
It means officers, clinicians. Okay, were there unknown substances in
like the soups or the salad dressings, not that I

(29:41):
know of, like wondering what I ingested.

Speaker 4 (29:43):
Yeah, you know, I mean it could have been. I'm
not sure.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
It's like the way we were set up is, like
you know, we had it was this conveyor belt. Basically
we go sit down and I'm not kidding. We think
they timed us. We had three to five minutes to
eat our entire meal.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Unless you're a slow eater and you get to be
of the line.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
And then you get a little longer.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
But no, not even that seriously, and then like you
have to you can't take anything with you, like that's
considered contraband, like say you didn't didn't get to finish
an apple or orange. Like if you drop that brought
that back to yoursell then like that was considered contraband
and you get a busted.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
For that because you could make pruno.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yeah, bruno part of it, you know what I mean?
For sure?

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah? Can you do you know how to make pruna?

Speaker 4 (30:19):
I don't know. I never did that.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
I was like I was trying to be sober anyways,
trying to you know, by the time I got there,
I was like trying to stay out of trouble.

Speaker 4 (30:26):
And I did. I dropped thirty pounds because I was
working out all the times.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
You weren't drinking bruno.

Speaker 4 (30:29):
I wasn't drinking proof.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
You should explain what pruno is.

Speaker 4 (30:32):
It's just a fermented fruit.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
And like hand sanitizer, any kind of shit you can get. Well,
you need like an alcohol and a sugar. Yes, to
sit in a dirty stink under your bed for like
many weeks.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
Yeah, sometimes there's events too, like outside and guys would
just kind of leave fruit out there, like peels and
stuff on top of the vents outside and it would
just kind of rotten the sun and then use that.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
For like the put that in there too.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Tell me about the riot.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
Oh so you know this.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Is rapid fire going through experience.

Speaker 4 (31:07):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's cool.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
This was like, you know, this was kind of what
made me want to get into criminal justice stuff. Was
because we're all, you know, we're all poor, Like nobody
had any money in this jail that you know, it's
like everybody came from you know, I'm in Orange County,
so you know, Santana, like a Santa Anna and Anaheim
and these different places, and at least the group that
I was with, like none of us had any money.
And so it was like the fact that all these

(31:30):
these people were fighting each other, these racial groups were
fighting each other based off of what was happening on
the street, was like frustrating to me.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
You know.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
So part of doing work, you know, for the group
is that if there is some kind of conflict on
the streets or in upstate prison, or there's a you know,
a faction in some prison somewhere in the higher ups,
you know, Pelican Bays, like back then, people are calling
the shops.

Speaker 4 (31:54):
Back there, they call it in the back right the shoe.
And if if they.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
Single house unit, yes, ye, seems like exactly or secure
housing unit too, that's yeah. And then so they call
the shots. If they say that, you know, we're going
to riot against this group, then you don't have a choice.
You have to you have to jump, you know, And
so that was kind of what happened. You have to
attack everybody, like.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
Whenever who's not within your done, your gang and who's
not your race is basically it.

Speaker 4 (32:22):
Yeah, but I mean there's California split.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
You know, there's the Northerners and the Southerners, so like
you could still be Mexican, but if they're Northerner, then
you're supposed to be you know, take off on them too.

Speaker 4 (32:32):
So that's the rules.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
And then like there's also the Fresno Bulldogs and they're
kind of their own little you know.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, there's very they're very infiltrated into a lot of
like they are working as staff.

Speaker 4 (32:44):
Uh oh yeah, mari are.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
A lot of female stuff brought in by the Bulldogs
to have sex with the inmates.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
Yeah, there's many many.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Yeah, there's lots of highlights, right, like jobs that people
have that they can do, and they just to make
life life easier for people inside.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
You know. That is it's a huge network. It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (33:04):
But I mean the last like two or three weeks
I was there, I knew I was gonna be getting
out a certain time. They said, yeah, there's some stuff
went down upstate prison tomorrow on the way to the
chow haul. Uh, but we're going to attack all the
black guys. We're going to walk past them and then
you got to just you know, start take off on
whoever is closest to you with We didn't have any

(33:25):
weapons they I mean, if we could have like made
them ourselves, but it happened so quick.

Speaker 4 (33:29):
They're just like, we're going to do it tomorrow morning
if you have time.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
And you're like, okay, I don't know why, but sure, Well.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
I mean, you know, no, I think nobody that's like
I'm not part of gang culture, and so I'm just like,
why is this beef my beef?

Speaker 4 (33:43):
Like what is that?

Speaker 3 (33:43):
And like besides that, like why would I tax somebody
that has nothing to do with me? Or you know
what I mean, Like it's just just because of this.

Speaker 4 (33:49):
But well it.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
Seems like a rational response. Yes, okay, but you dove
in No.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
Well, the thing was is they the there was no
African Americans our housing unit, the next housing unit over
there were, and so they actually started the rite early.
They started fighting each other right there, and then immediately
the whole place went on lockdown and so so luckily
didn't have to go to the chow hall in the morning,
didn't have to do that stuff, but we were on

(34:15):
lockdown for like the remaining weeks that was there, and
that was Yeah, that was a whole other experience, you know,
just being confined to yoursel you know, twenty four hours
a day. And then and then talk about the deputies,
like some guys would come in just mess with us,
shoot pepper spray and ourselves just for fun.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Like they would just spray, just.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
Shoot like you know, tell us to face the wall,
and then they'd shoot some stuff inside and then you
could smell it and it was like on the ground
and you need everybody's trying to avoid it and try
to clean it as soon as possible because they just
shoot the peppers because I thought it was funny.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
How do you clean it off your face?

Speaker 4 (34:45):
Water?

Speaker 3 (34:45):
Yeah, well we didn't have they would they wouldn't do
it on us like they have it put in ourselves,
so that they were hope, I guess the guess would
hope would be that we'd walk in it and like
like just kind of like fall in or something like that.
While we were there, so you know, we had our
rags and stuff like that. We cleaned as much as
like you tolet paper and click clean stuff. And then
I was kind of sick at the time though, so
it was actually like a vapo rub.

Speaker 4 (35:05):
I was able to breathe after it the pepper spread.
I was very hopeful. Oh my, go's nice. That's good.
They were looking out for us.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Can I tell you a story, of course, just I
want to hear your opinion.

Speaker 4 (35:15):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
I ran groups in the jail and this one guy
was schizophrenia wanted to talk to me after the group
and I had kind of moved out of the pod
and moved out of the area, and he sprinted towards
me and he was screaming doctor Dobson. And I didn't
find him a threat. You know, he was very impulsive,
but he didn't get to me. So I started walking
up the metal stairs. I don't think people know that

(35:39):
in a lot of prisons, the stairs of spikes. So
I'm halfway up the metal stairs and he he gets
taken down. So they grabbed him by the legs, he
hits the floor, they cuff them and he's drug down
the middle stairs and then there's like a moment of
ell of us pausing. I go into the office and
lock myself in. They walkie talkie like fifteen other officers.

(36:04):
They keep them coughed, and they beat the living shit
out of them. M hm, and I sat there and watched.
Couldn't do a single thing.

Speaker 4 (36:12):
Yes, that's traumatizing for you. Yes, right.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
What do you think about that being on the other
side when that could have been you?

Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, I mean I think about that. I saw that
many times in jail too. Like they call it pretzeled too,
like as we get pretzled pretzeled, well, they just like
have their limbs like tied behind their backs like like
a hog tigon and then they get kicked and stuff
like that, and it was it just made you super angry,
and like I mean a lot of times the deputies
like their whole you know rationale is like this isn't

(36:39):
supposed to be fun for you. Like the point of
this is is you know, you're being punished for, you know,
the harm you caused in the community. So this is
why we're doing it with the point of this is
that you never want to come back again because it's
the worst memory you've ever had.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
That you got the shit beat out of you.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
But you got to imagine, like half these guys have
been came from extreme violence their entire childhood. They were
beat by their stepdads or you know, molested or or
you know, I mean obviously you got to get jumped
into a gang or they've been shot at, stabbed many things.
So it's just another gang of people that are just
attacking you. So it's like and then of course it's
the state too, and it's also guys that can legally
do this to you, so it's even more frustrating.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
So you've seen that study comparing the personalities of custody
officers to inmates.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
No, yeah, I'm sure it's pretty similar though, right, they're
the same.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, it's based on the m mp I, the Personality Inventory.

Speaker 4 (37:26):
Oh yeah, I'm sure one hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
I mean, it's like just from what I see when
I'm teaching in prison, going into you know, and seeing
the correction officers and hearing them gossip about stuff, you know,
about the Menendez brothers because as you know, or whatever else,
you know, like this guy deserved it, or he's a
piece of crap or whatever. And you know they have
high school diplomas, a lot of them getting six six digits.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
And I think was it not chow Chill. It was a.

Speaker 3 (37:52):
Chuckawalla prison just shut down recently, and it was there
was a big uprising for the correctional officers there. Obviously
they got very angry that the prison was being shut down.
There was a big economic you know, uh thing for
the entire county, right, and so the I remember this
interview with the correctional officer specifically, how else am I
gonna get a six figure job? Of the high school diploma? Like,

(38:14):
you got to keep this prison open. So they we're
you know, fighting to get the prison to stay open.
To me, that's just not that's not justice, you know.
I mean, like, this is not what we should be
spending money on. And it's not justice if we have
to keep a prison open just because this guy wants
his job. I'm like, Blockbuster closed down, you know, Toys
r Us is gone, like figured out, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Oh I loved walking around a Blockbuster, right, yeah, soothing,
But if you're the manager of Blockbuster, you wouldn't be
like we need to keep that going because Netflix is
down with Netflix.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
I mean, I'm sure you would, but you know, it's
like times change. You gotta evolve, you know.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
It's like, so you get out of jail. We keep
switching back and forth from jail to prison. But you're
going to jail, okay, yes? And then how are you
welcomed back? What happens?

Speaker 3 (38:56):
I was because I've been so lucky as a music
you know, it's like it's kind of like the I'm
just kiddings. It's not the dues you pay as a musician,
but uh, it's as a rapper for sure, because I
mean I was a lot of rapping on my my
first album, and there's rapping on this too. I was
able to start teaching again because I was always teaching
but private lessons, you know, so I didn't necessarily have

(39:17):
to teach for a school and I have to. And
then the guys I was teaching with, the stores that
I was working with, they didn't require background checks.

Speaker 4 (39:25):
That knew me already for years.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
They just knew that I got in trouble and I
did you know, I you know, I had a problem.
And then I told him I fixed it, and I
couldn't prove it to them, and because yeah, well actually
it was a mystery mirror. Oh so I lucked out.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
So you wouldn't really even see that on a lot
of nocheck.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
Well it would show up still.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
And that's where like when I started teaching in prison,
when I did my background check, I was denied clearance.
I wasn't able to get in the first time even
with that, so I had to petition the award and
stuff like that. But I was it was easy because
I was like, you know, I'm a fun if I'm
playing an instrument on stage, like, nobody's gonna ask for
my background check.

Speaker 4 (39:58):
So I was able to continue teaching, especially all the stuff.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Yeah right, yeah, oh my god, you don't want to
know about it. Yeah, one hundred percent. So it's like
I was actually very very lucky. I considered myself very
very lucky, privileged to have had, you know, been a
professional musician, so that when I got out, I didn't
have to deal with what a lot of people have
to deal with finding jobs and being turned away and
not finding housing and all that stuff.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
Like I had a supportive.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
Family and so many different things that could have gone
wrong sideways, So you just.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Like jumped into touring with j Lo.

Speaker 4 (40:28):
No, that was actually before I got locked up, So
that was before.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, like that was one of the high profile acts
I started playing with right out of like a out
of this metal band.

Speaker 4 (40:36):
And it was like the musical director.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
Her musical director was a friend of mine, and he's like, hey,
you know I was twenty one at the time, twenty
years old.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
It's like five years ago.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
Yes, exactly, rights, I have likent, no gray hairs. The
he said, yeah, do you want to play with Jennifer Lopez?
You know I had some my Hiak and Jenner Philipez
on my walls, and so I'm like, do.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
I want to play? Like, I don't you know, I
don't even give a shit if she could sing or not, Like,
you know, I don't.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Care, like masturbatory stimulation.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
It's pretty much something like that. Yeah, in prison. Well no,
this was on my wallet home, it was my Yeah,
it was fantastic hurt and Alyssa Milano too. So yeah,
I started playing with her because he was a musical director.
He got me the gig and then she liked her.
She had an l a band and a new York band,
and so she liked a New York band, so we
kept getting gigs. So we did live twice and that's

(41:29):
when she was dating puff Daddy too, And uh, is.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
That that's what his name was back then?

Speaker 4 (41:34):
Yea, his name is puff Daddy.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
I wasn't dad. Yeah, because we said so many did. Yeah,
identity is going on there.

Speaker 3 (41:41):
Okay, I'm not sure if it's a copyright thing. That's
what I heard about. You know, Prince became the symbol
so you can get out of his record, uh copyright print,
you know, like.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
And then you go to jail and then you get out.
And then did you leverage all these really healthy relationships
to bless h your career? Go oh Jesus no, like hate.

Speaker 4 (41:58):
J Lo No.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
I was like I'm ready to go again too, so embarrassed,
Like no, it's just you know, it's like you're so embarrassed.

Speaker 4 (42:06):
Like I was just embarrassed with the person I was.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
I hated the you know, like being an addict, I mean,
you know, being an alcoholic.

Speaker 4 (42:14):
I really hated the person that I was.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
Like the more sober I got, I hated who I was,
Like I hated him.

Speaker 4 (42:20):
I was like he was just such a scummy piece
of shit.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
I beat myself up more than anybody else could beat
me up. Yes, I did go to therapy for a
while with you know, my significant other and alone and
just to kind of deal with a and also just
you know, I performing again Sober was the weirdest thing
I played on Saturday A live in front of millions
of people on TV. Right, But I was I think

(42:44):
I had done a little bit of blow and I
drank like a bottle of wine. And then the first
time I played Sober, it was probably around two thousand
and nine, and it was at a club in Coasta, Mesa,
at like twelve thirty pm in the afternoon, at like
an empty bar. There was maybe one person at the bar,
and I was terrified, terrified, so scared. And I was
like because I was like this this is you know,
I like what if I mess up? And this sounds

(43:05):
like shit, like, you know, just just being all weird.
And and to think back that I was like, you know,
on TV in front of millions, and I was like,
that was just I didn't even think twice about that.
But that's it took a little while to kind of
get used to my you know, sit in my skin, right,
you know, and get used to who I was.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
Now, how did you like, how did you morph back
into your skin? It took a long time.

Speaker 3 (43:25):
Yeah, well, I think I didn't even know half of myself.
That's the reason why I got like a higher education
helped me out with that. I didn't realize what I
was interested in half the time, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (43:34):
I didn't realize of all.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
I didn't know all the things that I could do,
you know what I mean, I didn't know what I
was capable of.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
Like I'm right now, I'm going to like a PhD.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
And never in a million years, but I thought of
ever doing like that's like stupid to me, you know.
And but I can kind of rely on that being
able to code switch because when I'm trying to, like,
you know, when I talk to like other musicians or
or you know, at the prison correctional staff for example,
I can relate to them on the music too. And
then if they're intimately like I had an associate word

(44:03):
and say, oh, like I saw your signature at the
end of your email.

Speaker 4 (44:06):
You're like, you're you have a master's degree, and you're.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
You know, get a you know, you're gonna go to
a PhD like, I'll be sure to like have a
real email to send back to you. And I'm like, bro, like,
don't I don't give us some I'm a fucking bass player, dude,
Like it's not like that, Like you can say whatever
you want to me, you know.

Speaker 4 (44:20):
So it helps in some ways to be able to
relate to people like that.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
But yeah, what's next? What's the prison reform is a
big part, yes, But what's next for you?

Speaker 3 (44:31):
Well, from the finished this PhD, That's the Plan, released
another album, That's the Plan, and then I got a
bunch of projects that I'm working on right now. Big
project with the Menendez brothers, who are you know, in
the in the media spotlight a lot in the past
six to eight months.

Speaker 4 (44:46):
I mean they have been for the past, you know,
thirty five years.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
But so thirty five years ago they were seriously sexually
assaulted by their father, abusive in all the ways. And
then they had two trials and in the second trial
all of the abuse wasn't really allowed in so they
were they were sentenced to life.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
Yeah, life.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
What they was on the table was death penalty was
on the table. And then also and then the other
option was yeah, life without the possibility of parole. So
that's kind of what I think what the prosecutor was
like the legal team.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
Well, we should add it's because they massacred their parents
with shotguns. There's that part, like the heads off, very heinous,
several times, many shots, many shots. It's very icky, and
then went on us spending spree and really looked like
they didn't give a fuck. H But we've had recent
evidence come out that they were really sexually abused and

(45:43):
we kind of can relate it to battered women syndrome
in a way, right right, Okay, So to catch everyone up,
and now they might be let out early because now
they're actually we understand what that kind of abused us
to people.

Speaker 4 (45:58):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
Yeah, that's that's a huge part of it is that,
like you know, their lawyer, Mark Gergos, always says, you know,
if they would have been the menendous sisters back then,
it might have looked differently because if they were being
you know, both of them are being completely sexually abused
and for years and years and years by their father,
and then their mother knew about it, and I kind
of sanctioned the abuse and the behavior because they have

(46:19):
multiple family members as well that said they knew something
was going on. There's certain times of the day where
they couldn't go upstairs and bother Eric and his dad
and Lyle and his dad and stuff like that too.
So many family members are also want them released, and
so that's also very helpful. And yeah, the new evidence
has been helpful too. And then obviously, like how you

(46:40):
spend your time in prison is always when you're you know,
looking at resentencing as another part of it, and they've
been involved with a bunch of rehabilitative programs. If I
was to talk to myself back then, I would say,
be aware of the lessons of been permanence. You know,
nothing lasts forever. Change is inevitable and that's good and bad.
And I'd also say, like, really pay attention to the

(47:02):
harm you cause people because if you are going to
because inevitably I did, but it's like you need to understand,
you need to be responsible and be held accountable for
that and you will be, you know, And like I
think that's probably what I'd sell myself.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
And it's time for break. What do you think about
Kim Kardashian Ohee, who's visited, Yes, your prison, who has
had more access and special treatment than anyone else. What
do you think about her type?

Speaker 4 (47:36):
No, I know what you're saying. Yeah, well it's okay.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
So I appreciate the visibility that she's brought to some
of the causes that we and many people before her
have been fighting for decades. And there are many more cases,
like she brings these certain cases to light, right, so
that the people didn't know about executions in Texas, all
these different things that people might have not known about,
which I appreciate. That's fantast because people should know about

(48:01):
this and somebody of her stature making it like a
discussion is super important, like because she can reach so
many people. But at the same time, like you know,
I mean, the whole sensationalized thing, it's like the whole
Hollywood shit is Like it's it's frustrating because people have
been doing the work forever and she's not the first.

Speaker 4 (48:21):
There are many people that are doing this work.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
I would say, like, if you wanted to start with
Kim Kardashian, the kind of open the door for people
to get interested in these kinds of topics, Like you
need to dig in, Like there's many and many other
things happening and people doing great work, because I don't
think she's even a fraction of you know, she's barely
skimming the surface of some of these issues. But the
fact that she's got so much visibility and people see her,

(48:43):
I think that's helpful for the whole cause in some ways,
you know, but it also kind of makes a cheese
ball too sometimes, you know what I mean, It's like
some people might not take it seriously because she's involved,
and it's like, no, this is real shit, you know.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah, so what what's the real shit that you want
to see changed? That's the final question.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yeah, I mean, prisons aren't the answer, at least the
way prisons are right now in California.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
We shouldn't have prison.

Speaker 3 (49:08):
The way they are now. Most these you know, institutions
were created. I mean, like there's California's got You used
to have thirty five prisons. Now it's got like thirty
two or thirty three. A lot of them were built
prior to nineteen eighty. They're not made for rehabilitation. So
like the idea of corrections and rehabilitation, it's stupid because
these buildings aren't I mean, there's no place to teach classes,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (49:28):
Like and so.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Like correcting behavior shouldn't be that, it should be something else.
We have hospitals, people have access to different things.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
So fixing it on the inside, fixing it at a
government level, but then also fixing the step down once
you get out. Yeah, and just we have nothing in California.
We just have nothing. People are incarcerated for so long
and then they just get thrown back into their gang
rid in community. They have no money of bucks.

Speaker 4 (49:58):
Yeah, that's what the game money as.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Yeah, and so they meet their pimp, they meet their dealer,
they start working again, and they're tied back into the hole.

Speaker 4 (50:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Cycle.

Speaker 4 (50:07):
It's tough.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
And it's like, I mean, I think we do have
a lot of good re entry programs and I'm also
working with the reentry liaison for the District Attorney at
San Diego. So it's like there are groups that are
trying to help out consistently, but it's just not I mean,
it's not enough. It's not enough money behind it to
adequately help people out. We're not addressing the trauma that
people had while they were in prison. When they get

(50:28):
out and then you know, but Luckily, California has been
one of the states where I mean I know this
from my own personal experience as applying to colleges. One year,
I had to divulge all my criminal background to get
in law school and PhD program. Next year, I didn't
ban the box, is what it was called. And so
now we don't have to consistently go back like, oh yeah,

(50:50):
in two thousand and seven, I really hurt some people.
Let me explain how I've changed. It's like, that's the past,
that was literally almost twenty years ago, right, I'm a
different person. So now I don't have to do that
every single time. So I think there's there's We're making
some good steps, but.

Speaker 4 (51:05):
There's gotta be more.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
I hear you. I agree, m h. I still think
about the victims that don't get to ever be free
of this, right, So we've got we're helping the inmates,
we're gonna kind of figure that out for them. But
the people who have lost their loved ones, right, well,
never that's.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
A huge part of it.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
So I mean, I also think restorative justice is really
really important, right because that's a huge point. And I'm
glad you brought that up because that's something I always
discussed with the ranch re liaison. These guys have been
able to sit in prison, not just sit, but like
they've been working on themselves for twenty years, right, They
have betting, they have food, they're able to like deal
with their traumas like hopefully see I mean, mental health
departments are you know, hit and miss at different institutions,

(51:51):
but they've been able to actually address some of these things. Meanwhile,
the victims have had no closure. It's like the state
kind of just takes this, this this feeling of empowerment
and responsibility out of the hands of the victims, and
then it's the state's responsibility. And so then when these
guys get out, the victims' families are just as upset
as they were maybe twenty or thirty years ago.

Speaker 4 (52:12):
It's just not fair.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
We should be working on ways to have them both
heal at the same time.

Speaker 4 (52:17):
But it's also like that's where our systems set up, right.

Speaker 3 (52:20):
It helps the prosecutor, you know, for their record, to
make sure that you know, the victims are always angry,
you know, like, yeah, he's up for parole, he's not
the same person anymore. He was a gang member, he
shot you know, your son when he was fourteen years old,
and unfortunately your son died, but you know, he's a
piece of shit.

Speaker 4 (52:37):
We should keep him in there. Aren't you still angry
about that? Luckily?

Speaker 1 (52:40):
You know?

Speaker 3 (52:40):
And then they keep their notch on the belt, you
know what I mean. But we're not helping the victims
out at all now.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
It's horrible, and resources and funding should not just go
to prisons but to the victims.

Speaker 4 (52:50):
Right and like help them restore themselves, you know what
I mean, to figure out way.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
But also you bring up a good point that lawyers
are going to tap dance and fuck with the judicial
system in order to have a better case load and
a better CV. And that's really really fucked up too.
We just talked about so many broken things, it is.
But I think the key is that we I respect

(53:16):
the Kim Kardashian tip of the iceberg mentality like she's
bringing it. Everyone needs to look deeper and look at
it in a more vast way mm hmm, because that's
quite a vapid perspective, although an important one mm hm
to at least draw our eyes or our attention to it.

Speaker 3 (53:34):
Yeah, we dropped the ball so many places, with so
many people, and they could have it could have easily
been swept up, like you know, there could have been
a program, There could have been some kind of mentor
for this person at this time. I mean, obviously you
can't save everybody, but we're not even addressing that stuff,
so totally.

Speaker 4 (53:48):
Okay mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Let's conclude with kind of like a call to action. Okay,
what would that be for you? Let's say we have
a bunch of people.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
Listening to this m M, what do you want to
tell them? I would say, Also, how can they follow
you and be there for your next album and help
with the change you want?

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Well, my name's Gabriel, saw that, So I'll have my
my second album will be just under my name, right,
I have all my social media Facebook, uh, Instagram, face, uh, MySpace,
just kidding that, and then uh yeah so and then
I'll be also you know, I mean doing My whole
goal too, is whatever I'm researching is to be able

(54:32):
to put that out in other means. You know, maybe
maybe I'll do another podcast, maybe I'll do YouTube or
something like that, because uh, nobody pays attention to academics
and the research. It's like and it's there's this whole
gatekeeping thing too. That drives me crazy. But I would say,
like for people, get involved with your local community. If
there's a youth like the Big Brother programs, the KASA

(54:53):
quarter a point and special advocates, get involved with that
because you have to. We want to make sure that
like getting the kids before they end up in the
criminal justice system, and keep doing this.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
That's the key.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
So I would say volunteering is super important. Also, just
trying to understand talking to people. Like the simplest thing
you can do is talk to somebody that doesn't think
the same way as you and get their perspective on
it and listen to And I would say, go volunteer
at your local jail or prison for sure. I mean,
just see what it's really like and talk to somebody,

(55:25):
Go sit down at the table and see what they've
dealt with in their life, because you'd have a completely
different perception of who's inside, you.

Speaker 4 (55:32):
Know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yeah, completely, I like that.

Speaker 4 (55:35):
Yeah man, it's like simple, but it's like it's so powerful.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
And if more people did that then it's like I
feel like a lot less kids would go through the
fall through the cracks and we'd be spending less money too,
because economically it's like we've dropped one hundred and twenty
thousand dollars per person in prison for a year.

Speaker 4 (55:52):
A lot it is. I mean, there's a lot of
elderly there and they have lots of medical needs.

Speaker 3 (55:57):
That's part of it. But yeah, we could be doing
it way better. It could be helping people out like period.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
And if you are into drugs or music, just go
to like one after party, not the fourth. Yes, okay,
thank you, of course, thank you for being here.

Speaker 3 (56:16):
No, thank you for having me like, I appreciate it.
I appreciate the questions you asked because it's like it
was helpful. I hope people listen and take pay attention,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Thanks for watching another episode of intentionally Disturbing. I'm so
happy you got to hear and meet Gabe. Not only
is he resilient, but he is brilliant. See you next time.