Interview with an Anarchist Fighting in Ukraine

Over several days, Robert conducted an interview with an Anarchist militant fighting as part of an Anarchist volunteer militia unit in Ukraine.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, everybody, this is it could happen here. I am
Robert Evans. This is a podcast about things falling apart
and sometimes how to put them back together. Today this
is another episode about the war in Ukraine. UM. It's
going to be eventually an interview with a Ukrainian anarchist
militant who is fighting on behalf of of of Ukrainian

(00:25):
people UM in that conflict. But here's a little introduction first.
So anarchists are all about the elimination of hierarchy, and
since the state tends to be the hierarchy ist thing around,
most anarchist activists tend to either seek the destruction of
the state or at least snatches of a life lived
beyond its bounds. The most joyful moments, and anarchist organized

(00:46):
protests tend to be those brief liberatory windows where anything
seems possible, and even say middle class suburban moms might
feel briefly like they could tear down the walls of
a federal courthouse. So the idea of anarchists join and
fighting in a national military, commanding and being commanded in
the hierarchy of the state's defense forces feels like a
pretty big contradiction. Yet, when the Russian Federation launched a

(01:10):
massively expanded invasion of Ukraine in February two, many Ukrainian
anarchists announced their intention to fight on the side of
their government. Organizations like rev DIA formed militias which have
been integrated into Ukrainian territorial defense forces. In one statement
I found on the website enough is Enough, a militant

(01:30):
representing rev DEA explained their feelings this way, Ukrainian anarchists
are at war with Russian expansionism, fascists, and the government.
They have created their own arm and call on us
to join them. Every anarchist collective, an organization that understands
the revolutionary task and the internationalists struggle, must transform its
general anti war position into a position of engagement by

(01:53):
participating in or strengthening the anarchist Ukrainian guerilla struggle without suspensions,
and by attacking the Russian eco aomic and political power.
Victory in arms for the anarchists in Ukraine who stand
against Russian imperialism, fascist paramilitary groups and the democratic government
in Kiev. Solidarity with the Russian and Belarusian anarchists who
are crawling in the Democratic dungeons trying to stop the war.

(02:16):
Let us give space to the people and not to
the imperialist dreams that divide the planet into plots. We
are forever with the invisible people of the world who
are fighting for an inclusive, self organized and anti hierarchical world.
So anarchists with Reveda and other Ukrainian organizations are very
much acting in line with more than a century of
anarchist tradition in Ukraine. During the Russian Revolution, famed Ukrainian

(02:40):
anarchist war lord Nestor Makno was forced to make a
tough decision. Ukrainian nationalists threatened the central government that had
arisen after the fall of the Czar, and Makno and
his comrades decided to defend the democratic socialist government against
the nationalists. From the book Anarchy's Cossack quote that decision
the local anarchists with a problem for it had them

(03:02):
support governmental forces here, which, even if they were of
the left, were nonetheless potential enemies of the masses autonomy.
Makno reckoned at the time that as anarchists, we must,
paradox or no paradox, make up our minds to form
a united front with the governmental forces. Keeping faith with
anarchist principles, we will find a way to rise above
these contradictions, and once the dark forces of reaction have

(03:25):
been smashed, we will broaden and deepen the course of
the revolution for the greater good of an enslaved humanity.
Roughly one month into the expanded Russian invasion, I had
the chance to sit down and interview an anarchist in
Ukraine who was participating in the resistance to Putin's regime.
We conducted our interview over the course of several days
as his fighting schedule allowed, and we did so over

(03:47):
voice messages in signal. His audio quality was thankfully quite good.
I have condensed some bits of the interview, particularly my questions,
to make things easier to understand, and I moved some
stuff around a little bit. I hope this is still
pretty clear. Now here's our source introducing himself. What I
would start you to tell about my story is um

(04:08):
let's call me Iliah. I am an anarchist from some
neighboring country, but live in Ukraine for civilary several years.
I had to leave my homeland because of the political
repressions against anarchists there. Ah and for me participation in
this conflict. It has several dimensions, uh once like the

(04:36):
the first and simplest thing is that Ukraine, even though
it's like highly imperfect state like with clear new liberal
stuff and some nationalists and varied influences in the politicum,
but still is more like gray zone and more like

(04:59):
um how to say, pluralistic and free space. The state
here has much less control than in Russia and Belarus,
for example. I wanted to start by asking them about
the elephant in any room where people are discussing left
wing resistance in Ukraine, the neo Nazi asof Battalion. I've
think it's important for people to like to talk about

(05:19):
as off and and whatnot and not whitewash what's going
on there. But it strikes me that they have a
really effective social media campaign and they're they're sneaking a
lot of videos and a lot of combat footage and
whatnot out into kind of Western mainstream media without people
realizing it's Nazis. Well. To be honest, of course, uh,

(05:41):
far right movement is much more massive in Ukraine than
any libertarian leftist movements at the moment. This I think
is obvious for you but at the same time sometimes
UH conscious or unconscious pro Russian propagandists try to portray
the situation as if it is Nazi state or something

(06:04):
like all the resistance is far right or something, but
actually general part of the state. And also, which is
more important, of the grassroots popular resistance is just a
political in sense that like most of the army, are
not in the politics, even though of course we are
aware that armies political institution itself. UH and especially all

(06:29):
those people in the villages who are now taking up
arms to guard their lands against the occupiers, they are
also not politically affiliated. Somehow, Ilia and many of his
comrades see anarchist participation in the struggle against Russia is
necessary for two reasons. The most basic is that Putin's

(06:49):
regime is a threat to their life and freedom to
The secondary reason is that if they don't fight, they
will have no ability to influence what happens in their
country after the war to day. This invasion it really
constructs the threat for the whole existence of this society,
more society than to the states itself, because this is

(07:12):
a kind of attempt to export this totalitarian hell which
were constructed in Russia more or less. And to confront
this just not let it happen is already a task
I think. But of course to come to to defend
some land against some occupation, for me is too simplistic

(07:38):
for the anarchist and revolutionary approach. So there come like
more detailed reason reasons. I would say, First of all,
I really believe that if put In will be confronted
intensively and successfully here, then it's very possible that it

(07:59):
will break the spine of this regime in Russia, which
may lead to revolutionary changes both in Russia and Belarus,
because Belarusian dictatorship exists, like realize very much on put
In support and so on. Uh. And another dimension is

(08:21):
that any force which wants to be like really politically
meaningful in Ukrainian society should take sides in this conflict.
All people who say some dogmatic things like we are
against all states against all wars. This is not enough. Now,
this is not a position now, uh. And now this

(08:43):
is really popular resistance. Like if you do not, if
you do not join it for whatever reasons, then you
exclude yourself from actual political process because the main questions
will be like where are you and where were you?
In these events, and of course the right side is

(09:04):
to confront this imperialist occupation. UH. This can really give
an opportunity UH to like for future and not not
for future, actually already today for organizing and mobilization of
revolutionary libertarian forces UM and constructing ourselves as some considerable

(09:26):
significant movement. Like for example, now there is this unit
of Territorial sealf Defense which enarchies participate in actively. UM.
This is now already around fifty people. Well, it was
like unimaginable the recent years and months to have some

(09:49):
gathering of fifty enarchi, antifascialists and so on as some
joint unit. But now this is the reality, and this
mobilization is aid because of this invasion. Actually, so this
is something that makes sense my opinion, and another interesting

(10:09):
thing I think in context of comparing for example, UH
far left and far right participating in Ukrainian political life
and the current events that of course, for US any
collaboration with the state is much more problematic than for

(10:30):
the Nazis, because even they're like ideology and mindset as
far as they can evaluate, it pretty allows them both
any relations with the state structures and also any dirty schemes,
both with the state, with the business and with criminal sphere.

(10:51):
Like um UH, our approaches are much more puristic, which
is partly good of course, but also have some consequences
for us to be much less adoptable as the movement
to the real social, political, economical realities. And for example,

(11:13):
now currently this is still an question for anarchists should
we join, for example, the Territorial Defense UH forces, which
is even though somehow militia like localized institution, but still
of course like state affiliated force orchestrated and arranged by

(11:35):
the state and subordinated to state army hierarchical system UM.
But we still believe that in current events UM, this
participation like it UH less compromise us, but more give
us the tools to organize, to get experience and to

(11:59):
get subject tvty, if we can say so in English,
like to to to become really an actor UM. And
still it is within this frame is still possible to
maintain UM political independence and even some sort of structural independence.
So this is not just people are going and joining

(12:21):
the army and that's it. They are now just units
UM at least up to the moment. This is not
our story and this is something, at least me personally
reflecting on a lot. First, I would like you mentioned

(12:47):
you came to Ukraine from a neighboring country where repression
of anarchists was more severe. I am interested prior to
you know, this stage of the invasion. Obviously the first
invasion happened in to A fourteen, but prior to this escalation,
how would you describe state repression against anarchists in Ukraine,

(13:08):
the degree to which anarchists organizing was opposed by the state,
by the police in Ukraine. UM. And then the follow
up question to that would be, as you guys saw
this war building, could you elaborate on some of the
discussions that happened about what to do, about whether or
not to form militious whether or not or to what

(13:28):
extent to fight alongside the government. Um. So about state
repressions against the anarchists in Ukraine in recent years, I
would say that, they were, of course, um much less
hard than for example, in Belarus and Russia. UM. Also

(13:49):
because like for different reasons, because of in general, of
course more pluralist or political culture and political situation in
Ukraine in but also partly because anarchist movement in after
my Land period was not that organized and not that
combative to really draw drive attention of the state to itself.

(14:16):
And also what I need to say that in maybe
two thousand nineteen and twenty, this attention grew dramatically after
several direct actions were taken by anarchists, for example, some
sabotage against UH cell phone towers of some Turkish affiliated

(14:41):
company when Turkey invaded Rajava in UH the late autumn
of two thousand nineteen and often and also several actions
against some police stations UH. Some of these statements were
placed in anarchist later website and telegram channel UH, and

(15:03):
so police and secret services got, how to say, very
energetic in their attempts to find the people who did this,
even though they didn't succeed actually, so several house rates
taking place. They also tried to depart one anarchist from

(15:25):
Belarus Alexey Berrenkov, who UH stayed in Ukraine for several
years while decided to move out from Lukashenko regime and
so UH, but they didn't depart actually, and also their
house rates were not successful, so they didn't succeed in
the in their repressions. So the last couple of years,

(15:49):
this picture, uh say, vegetarian picture of zero attention of
the state to anarchist movement. It changed, so it started
to be like a different way before it actually also
was some direct actions believed to be related with revolutionary
action anarchist group. It was, if I am not mistaken,

(16:13):
around to Southern seventeen and so on. And this also
were somehow um prosecuted by by Ukrainian secret services. Also
about organized participation of different anarchist faction in the current

(16:34):
resistance against the Putting East imperialist aggression. Like about the
most organized initiative you all in most numbered you already know,
But there are several others, smaller groups, like more like
affinity groups or several friends participating in different units. We

(16:55):
even cannot count it because we even don't know about
everyone who participate. At this point, he started talking about
an anarchist militant named Igor wala Chow, who had been
killed by a rocket in Kharkiv a few days earlier.
Before the war, wala Chow had expressed a desire to
organize a network of co ops across Ukraine. He had
also been active in providing support for anarchists jailed in Russia.

(17:18):
Ilia referred to him as having been martyred. He was participating.
I don't know, either individually or with some of his
friends from Kharkiv, but for example, I knew nothing about
their group and their participations. There is also Black Flag,
anarchist group from Lviv which now, as far as I know,

(17:39):
participating in territorial self defense of Kiev. At least they
released several photos and some short statement. Uh, this is
something organized which I know about, and apart from that,
I know, just as I already telled told you, several
affinity groups, groups of friends. The overall picture he painted

(18:01):
of anarchist resistance in Ukraine was extremely atomized, due in
part to pre war concerns about avoiding state repression and
the myriad doctrinal differences between different kinds of anarchists. The
war seems to have had a catalyzing effect which has
made larger militant anarchist organizing possible for the first time
in recent memory. Elijah was cautiously optimistic about this, but

(18:23):
he and his comrades also recognized a danger here. We
are trying to avoid attention from the state services, from
secret services. Uh, even though we still have to collaborate uh,
somehow with the military hierarchy and so on in this situation.
But of course we understand that if we will attract

(18:47):
undesirable attention, then probably UH sound forces would try to
destroy us or somehow assimilate subjugate us. None of the
scenarios are good for us, and were aware of it.
So we try to have some publicity and at the
same time to act ourselves in the way which will

(19:10):
not drive repressive attention to us. Like immediately, so up
to now, within this frame of territorial defense, UH and
UH like some civil volunteer activities and some other quite
conventional activities of participating in this conflict against the putting

(19:32):
east Side, we believe that we can take the ground
for the new conceptions and programs of lack of libertarian cause,
and also some organizational developments like some organized structure which
are of course not necessarily should be illegal from from

(19:54):
the very first steps, but to establish some organizational basis
and maybe hopefully ideological basis which will help us to
act more actively, UH, both during the war and after war.
Could you go into a little more detail about the
ways in which you all do your units do kind

(20:16):
of interface with the state I went on to ask
how they organized their combat units and whether or not
this reflected their broader beliefs about horizontal organizing. His basic
answer was that the militias have to operate within a
military command structure and thus have to be broadly organized
in the same way conventional military units are. However, being
a regular their life outside of battle is much less

(20:39):
regimented than what regular soldiers experience. So about military hierarchy
in general, of course, territorial defense forces are set by
the state and they are included into the general structure
of a military hierarchy of regular army. Uh. In this sense,

(21:01):
we are of course generally not autonomous, and what is
what's been issued by superior command we should implement in
life and should um fulfill these orders. However, now territorial
defense forces, I would not speak about all of them

(21:22):
because I limited since the very start of war, within
my own experience with this unit. These forces have like
a lot of time for constructing itself, like our internal life,
not that much regulated by the higher command. And also

(21:48):
there is a sort of space of communication with some
commanders which are a little bit higher than us. So
we have like good people who our comrades who set
this opportunity for us to get organized within this frame
of territorial defense. This was just our old friends who

(22:10):
decided to join some territorial defense structure as officers already
before uh this situation started to happen. Um so, I
think these people do really good job, and they provide
for us options to feel ourselves like comparatively free. Of course,

(22:35):
not in operational sense, because uh, like operational frame is
being set by the higher command and like as one picture,
one scheme, and in this aspect we of course just
the one of the elements of the general plan of
the fighting. Uh they put in regime invasion here. Um so,

(22:58):
I mean yes, as a unit we are governed by
the military command. But this is really rarely that we
see anyone apart anyone of some officers or i know,
generals or somebody else from above the military hierarchy. We

(23:20):
here now occupied with the training, with the organizational constructing
and with like improving our internal life, not being like
really orchestrated by any military military hierarchy people. Um so,

(23:45):
what about internal structure. It is still supposed to be
organized on the traditional army scheme, so every section has
a commander. Unit in general has a commander, and this
is not an elected people. This is not like really
controlled from from below people. UM. Maybe unfortunately or maybe

(24:10):
this is necessary in the current situation. This is really
hard to estimate to evaluate at the moment. UH. In
this manner, our internal structure in sense of like military
structure is more or less traditional for the territorial defense.
At the same time, of course, we have more democratic
internal culture. In general, territorial defenses people mostly organized on

(24:36):
local basis and also out of volunteers. So people who
came here are on their good will and not on
some conscript, conscription or some contract which gives you a
certain money or privileges. So because of this you already
supposed to be somehow more free uh and more up

(24:58):
to express your opinions, UM and so on. And of
course we as somehow um leftist affiliated anarchist unit. Of
course we encourage the internal discussion. Everyone including all the
commanders inside our regiment are subjects to critics and discussion UM,

(25:24):
even though maybe final words in the operational UH questions
are up to these people. UH. And also it's important
that we maintain a total political autonomy in sense that
all the groups and individuals who constructs, who construct the
unit we are part of, they like absolutely free to

(25:48):
express their analysis, political analysis, and conceptual conceptualization of both
these events and our participation in them are according to
their like analysis, their attitude, and so on. I also

(26:15):
asked what it was like to fight ostensibly on the
same side as neo Nazi elements like asof While Iliah
and his unit are not anywhere close to the as
Off battalion, I wanted to know how he and his
comrades dealt with the weird reality of being in the
same broadside as people they might have battled in the street.
At one point, I would say that before war, of course,
there was a lot of tensions between UH fascists and US,

(26:41):
not directly with us off because as of his UM
like military unit like this is not the guys you
meet and fight in the streets, but of course there
is like they tried to set like their own how
to say, mafia political empire, I would call it, or
mafia like they had some businesses, some criminal stuff, some

(27:04):
patronage from the Interior Ministry UH and also very different
how to say, far right groups which the leaders of
so called as of movement, which is much broader than
as of battalion itself. They tried to utilized and instrumentalized

(27:26):
to reach their own goals. And with some of these groups,
of course we had like just street fights. For example,
the elements closed to this as of movement, they try
to influence a lot the Belarusian diaspora, like a position
of diaspora in Kiev. For example, in the one year

(27:50):
anniversary of the protests of twenty twenty in Belarus uh
there were there was fight in Kiev between anarchists who
came to participate in demonstrations in this demonstration and the
Nazis who attacked them in like aiming to somehow push

(28:11):
them out from the Belarusian movement to influence it in
their own way. Like also just usual street confrontation also
took place. All this time, there is quite visible and
active Antifa movement in Kiev which confronted Nazis on the
streets and blocked sometimes uh UM several of their like

(28:37):
initiatives and so on. And also of course informational and
propaganda struggle was held by us by us UH during
all this time since my then and of course before
as well, about the current military situation, like, of course

(28:58):
we are now actually part of one army with right
sector as Off and so on. People, we are under
the same military command UH, and if we will be
tasked to fight in the same place the same enemy,
we will be actually like the same um like part

(29:19):
of the barricade. But this situation we need to deal with,
like there are different opinions amongst our comrades and here
about as Off and all the far rightists. They differs
from that they are actually our enemies like both now
and also in any future Ukraine, in any future scenario,

(29:42):
because these people promote like quite obviously absolutely opposite political
and social goals. Then we um Other people say that
another like other people say that now there is how
to say, general deadly threat we are facing and we

(30:03):
should fight regardless of left and right and something like
this to fight the imperialist invasion. But I personally me
I do not support this second assumption and position. I
see this quite not really politically smart at my opinion.
But what we here can agree on is that if

(30:24):
we want to confront uh Nazis, UH and far right
parts of the Ukrainian political and also military spectrum, then
we need to develop our own strong structure, our own
strong actor uh. And also this um somehow connected with

(30:44):
the question about p R you mentioned that like we
need our own pr our own publicity and media work
and also our first of all, our own conceptions and
ideological blueprints which we can um suggect to Ukrainian society
and present both inside Ukraine and abroad. And this is

(31:07):
the work, this is the challenge and duty which we
need to fulfill and hopefully like not hopefully, but actually
we are working on this already now. So if you
want to combat us off now is uh not the
time maybe to accuse them uh in some public statements,

(31:31):
but this is time to develop alternative structure which will
be able to really confront this reactionary currency. It could
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(31:52):
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