March 25, 2024 • 43 mins
If you’ve lived through horrific trauma or abuse, is it really fair of us to say that the ways you’ve learned to cope are “bad,” or to use clinical speak, “maladaptive”?
This week on It’s OK, Stephanie Foo, author of What My Bones Know, joins me to talk about complex PTSD and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You’ll also hear how claiming your own messy, complex coping mechanisms can help you build a community that sees you and loves you.
If you’re haunted by any type of trauma, or know someone who is, this conversation is a great introduction to complex PTSD, and the work of survivorship.
In this episode we cover:
- Why pretending to be a high-performing badass is maybe not in your best interest
- How storytelling can make you feel less freakish and alone
- The real problem with most books on trauma and C-PTSD
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. A noted speaker and instructor, she has taught at Columbia University and has spoken at venues from Sundance Film Festival to the Missouri Department of Mental Health. She lives in New York City with her husband.
Find her at stephaniefoo.me and on Instagram @foofoofoo
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Read Stephanie’s book, What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think it got too difficult really for me to
pretend to be normal. I just couldn't do it anymore.
Part of me wish as I could have just pretended
like everything was okay and I could be the high
performing badass that everyone thought I was, and I just
could not. And once I admitted that to myself and said,
(00:25):
you know, I might not be that person, but here's
who I am instead, that's when life got a lot easier,
more comfortable. And yeah, that's when my tribe came along
and everyone was like, oh, us too, and prove that
there is a different way to live this life that
is just as valuable and just as viable.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
This is here after, And I'm your host, Megan Divine,
author of the best selling book It's Okay that You're
Not Okay. Each week I bring you conversations with authors
and activists and other really cool people, all exploring what
it means to be a fully feeling human in an
often difficult world. Now, if you've lived through horrific trauma
(01:10):
or abuse, is it really fair of us to say
that the ways you've learned to cope with that trauma
or abuse are bad? Like bad? In air? Quotes here
or to use clinical speak to call your coping skills maladaptive.
This week on hereafter Stephanie Foot, author of What My
Bones Know. She joins me to talk about complex PTSD
(01:32):
and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You'll
also hear how claiming your own messy complex coping mechanisms
can help you build a community that sees you and
loves you. All of that and more coming up after
this first break Before we get started, two quick notes.
(02:00):
This episode is an encore performance. I am on break
working on a giant new project, so we're releasing a
mix of our favorite episodes from the first three seasons
of the show. Some of these conversations you might have
missed in your original seasons, and some shows just truly
deserve multiple listens so that you capture all of the goodness.
(02:20):
Second note, while we cover a lot of emotional, relational
territory and our time here together, this show is not
a substitute for skilled support with a license memntal health
provider or for professional supervision related to your work. Take
what you learn here, take your thoughts and your reflections
out into your world and talk about it. Hi, friends, Now,
(02:42):
as a survivor of trauma myself. I am really sensitive
about asking my guests to summarize the things they've lived through.
I've been on that media circuit where you just talk
about some of the worst moments of your life over
and over and over again. Like answering these deeply personal
questions about horrendous, difficult things over and over. It's just
(03:03):
it's weird. So whenever I can, I try to shift
the burden of telling the horrendous story off of my
guest and front loaded here into my introduction to the show.
And that's what I've done today. Stephanie Fu grew up
in San Jose, California, surrounded by manicured landscapes and high
achieving immigrant families. From the outside, her family looked like
(03:27):
that coveted American dream scenario, but on the inside it
was very much a nightmare. Stephanie's parents regularly beat her
and emotionally abused her, before eventually abandoning her when she
was sixteen. In twenty eighteen, Stephanie was diagnosed with complex PTSD,
(03:48):
a little understood and little studied form of post traumatic
stress disorder that can occur from repeated long term trauma.
Stephanie's best selling book, What My Bones Note tells the
story of that intense childhood abuse and the coping patterns
that helped her survive what she had to survive. The
book is also a story of intergenerational trauma, immigration, and
(04:11):
understanding the roots of violence, while not excusing the violence itself.
Just that last bit is such a super important point,
and I'm really glad that we got to talk about
it a little bit in this conversation now. Books on
complex PTSD, like many other diagnoses or conditions that we have,
books on complex PTSD can be really dry and honestly
(04:33):
kind of clueless and cruel in their descriptions about people
who carry long term behaviors or patterns of behavior due
to the trauma and abuse they survived. So you'll hear
it in our conversation today. But Stephanie really wants you
all to know that her book is written by a
trauma survivor for other trauma survivors, not just child aboose,
(04:56):
but war and other kind of repeated horrible experiences. She
wants you to know that the book focuses on healing,
but the kind of healing that can only come when
you respect the ways that each person managed to survive
what they went through. I promise you that's going to
make more sense as you listen to the show. But
(05:16):
if you're haunted by any type of trauma or you
know someone who is, this conversation with Stephanie fu is
a great introduction to complex PTSD and the work of survivorship.
So let's get into it. Content notes everybody, This episode
contains non graphic reference to abuse and trauma, and it
includes a small amount of swearing, well.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Hi, hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Absolutely, I sat down and read your book cover to
cover over the course of like eight hours on Sunday.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Oh wow fast.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
So one of the things that I would really love
to talk about throwing it out there is like you
write a lot about how we pathologize responses to trauma.
Mm hmm, no matter what happens to you, like the
healthy responses to be completely unaffected, like rise above and
always present as really chill. There's a section I particularly
(06:14):
liked in your book when you talk about meeting Joey
for the first time and you're like, I am pretending
to be completely non anxious and chill and all of
these things, and he's like Okay, but tell me what's
actually happening. Yeah, so, can we talk about that like that,
the ways that we pathologize responses to trauma.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah so, I think, you know, just the word trauma itself,
I think is pathologized. I think there's this understanding that
trauma itself, experiencing it makes you broken. I remember reading
this Vox article where they were saying, you know, be
careful about how you use the word trauma, because if
(06:56):
you describe yourself as traumatized, that is like that you
are broken and helpless and like you're robbing yourself resiliency
because you're basically admitting that you know there's no hope
for yourself and you're giving up.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And I was like, wait, what whoo? Why would you
define I mean, yeah, I mean I guess it's a
problem to say that you are traumatized if that's how
you're going to define trauma. But I don't think trauma
needs to be defined in that way. I think the
fact of the matter is that we all experience some
form of trauma, and trauma is a scientific adaptation to
(07:40):
keep us alive. Like if you're bitten by a snake,
you're going to be afraid of snakes. If you touch
a hot stove, you're going to be really careful around
a hot stove, Like it's basically your brain wiring threat
and saying like, hey, this is something that's really dangerous
that could kill you, so be vigilant around the thing
that could kill you. And you know, for some of us,
(08:04):
those triggers like being afraid of snakes are maybe more
sensible than others, not sensible, but more like manageable than others.
Like being afraid of anyone who's using a loud voice.
You know, Yeah, being afraid of someone who's yelling. You're
going to encounter that much more in life. That's harder
to avoid, right than snakes.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I think it's really interesting that like the self definition
of trauma, right, that we have this idea that it's
not the incident of trauma that's the problem, it's allowing
yourself to identify as traumatized. I think we have that
as like, oh, you're being a victim and you're never
going to be able to get out of this, Like
(08:46):
it's such a weird like it's so weird, it's so weird,
like that that whole nothing bad should happen to you.
If it does, your your prime directive is to be
resilient and unaffected, and don't even name it as a
bad thing, because that's almost like invoking badness if you
(09:06):
call the bad thing bad.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Exactly. I think it's completely missing the fact that trauma
can be an adaptation. There's lots of fears and responses
to trauma that actually can be healthy, that actually can
make us sort of extremely useful in a variety of
different situations. And it's also just not a very empathetic
(09:32):
or kind place to come from considering that all of
us have some form of trauma. If you're going to
judge everyone for their trauma response instead of stepping in
and saying like, hey, are you having a trauma response?
Do you need a minute? What do you need? How
can I help you? How can I support you in this,
there's going to be a lot more conflict, judgment, and
refusal to make space. And I think it's very ablest
(09:57):
and like, what is this perfect, untouched population of people anyway,
honestly that they've never gone through anything hard?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like that common default
that everybody is pretending to be okay when We're not okay,
which is basically like the entire reason for my work
and this show is to start talking about how hard
it is to be human and the stuff we go through,
and that we adapt to the things that we go through.
And that's not the same as resilienced or overcoming, but
(10:27):
it's more like shit happens to you, and some of
the ways that you survive that and deal with that
are awesome in the right context, and some of those
ways are really difficult, but they're not wrong.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah. Yeah, it's the judgment of that that makes it
impossible to live with, not the challenge itself.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Right, Stephanie, can you give us a description of complex
PTSD and how that's different than I don't know, like
the post traumatic stress disorder that people might know.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, so PTSD you can get quote unquote traditional PTSD
from a singular traumatic event. So let's say you're hit
by a car that can give you PTSD. Complex PTSD
is kind of like if you were hit by that
car every week for three years. It's when the trauma
happens over and over and over, and unless you are
(11:23):
like a tremendously unlucky individual, the only way that you're
probably getting complex PTSD is from a difficult relationship with
other people. So having an abuser, suffering from child abuse,
domestic violence, or living in a war zone. So complex
PTSD in particular tends to really erode people's trust of
(11:48):
other human beings and make relationships a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah. Yeah, when that is what you absorb, right, Our
relationships tell us about the world, and when your relationships
to you that the world is an unsafe place, then
the world is an unsafe place, and we learn lots
of different ways to survive that place. When I am
having a conversation with an author who has a book out,
like I don't want to give the book away because
(12:14):
I really really want people to read the book. We
were talking earlier that like my perfectionist overwork tendencies. I'm like,
I'm basically going to develop a book report on your
book for everybody, but like, no, stop it, right. A
book is a sort of a one way conversation and
the sparks that we gather from that, like, that's that's
where that's really interesting to me. There was actually a
tweet that you had out about what My Bones Know
(12:37):
is now going into its six printing in five months.
Thank you to the therapists and teachers who have been
assigning it, the caretakers who have been studying it, and
most of all the survivors for opening your hearts to it.
This is like the dream, right, the dream here of
taking something deeply personal, deeply painful. It's not easy to
(12:57):
write about these really intense personal experiences put them out
into the world for public display, inter section. Yeah, and
that knowing that doing that means something to people. Yeah, yeah, right,
Can we talk about that a little bit, that that
interesting zone of here's this really intimate personal stuff that
(13:19):
was probably not very easy to write either, certainly wasn't
easy to live and putting it out in the world
and seeing the impact of that. What's that been like
for you? To see the impact of your story in
the world.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
It's been tremendously meaningful, because well, when I was first diagnosed,
there was nothing like my book out there. Everything that
I read was very clinical. Most of it was not
meant for people like me to read. It was clear
that it wasn't. A lot of it was not made
for people actually with complex PTSD to read, because they
(13:53):
would talk shit about us. They'd be like complex people
with complex PTSD are so difficult to treat. They are
you know, they are burdens, they are pain in the ass,
they are whatever. They would say all of these things,
and I was like, did you think that I'd be
too stupid to read this? Like what? I don't understand?
(14:14):
A lot of it was very pathologizing, a lot of
it was very dry, just not very fun to write. Yeah,
And you know, I was a person who was coming
from a storytelling background. Obviously, it told stories for ten years,
first person stories, other people's first person stories. And I
realized the impact that had for empathy, for a narrative,
(14:38):
for feeling less alone. You know, I'd helped so many
other groups feel less alone by showcasing these important stories,
but never really my own. And so when I was
reading all of these books and recognizing that, you know,
that first person story just did not exist, and it
made me feel so isolated and freakish and damaged, I
(15:01):
guess and I knew that if I healed from this
in any kind of way, I would need to write
about it, because that story was just needed. I didn't
want anybody else to feel as completely isolated as I
did after diagnosis, And I always told myself in this
process that like, my story did not represent everyone with
(15:22):
complex PTSD. I mean, it's obviously a spectrum. We all
have different symptoms and experiences. And I told myself that
if one person benefited from the book, then the four
years of creating it would be worth it, It'd be okay.
So to have the response be so overwhelmingly positive, to
(15:46):
get like dozens of messages every day saying like you
got it, that's exactly what it's like, it's been really wonderful.
And it's made me realize how truly needed this was
and to be able to give words to people for this. Yeah,
I mean, I think it's been great on a couple
different levels. I think first of all, it's made me
(16:08):
feel less alone because I didn't really have many people
in my life with complex PTSD, and now I see
people with all different backgrounds and careers, from herbalists to
doctors to like, you know, farmers, all messaging me saying like,
your experience is my experience. Certainly it makes me feel
(16:28):
a lot less freakish myself and apparently have helped other
people do that. And yeah, it also give some sort
of meaning and power to like the true anguish that
I've had to experience, and it gives some affirmation to
that self loathing that I've suffered from for so long.
(16:49):
That I don't deserve to be here. You know, that
I'm too broken to be here, that I don't fit
in with everyone else. I guess those feelings and more important,
like learning how to corral those feelings has actually made
me sort of able to shine a light for those
who come behind me and has shown me that I
(17:11):
really do have a place of importance here, that we
all have a place of importance of being the healers
who can lead the way.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It's so counterintuitive or counter to the ways that we
talk about quote unquote mental health in this culture. Right
that if you say or if you're feeling alone in something,
or you're feeling like a freak, you're feeling like the
only one who's experiencing these things, then your call to
perform harder, right, perform like everyone else a little bit
(17:39):
harder to fit in. If you're feeling lonely, you have
to be more like everybody else. And the reverse of
that is actually what's accurate. The willingness to tell the
truth about who you are and where you are and
what you're feeling and what you're experiencing that stripped down,
not bright, shiny package truth like that is how not
(18:02):
only you feel less alone, but others feel lesson. It's
like how we find each other.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, okay, let's get back to the.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Writer, an all around awesome person, Stephanie Fuh. There's a
site called Glow in the Woods that was started by
I'm going to space on her last name, but her
first name is Kate and one of the descriptions it's
a like a crowdsourced blog community platform for people who
have experienced baby death, and she says, I envisioned a
(18:42):
glow in the Woods, a place where all of the
medusas could come and take their hats off, this place
where nobody's afraid of your snakes because they have their own. Yeah,
and I really see that power of storytelling, and not
just the power of story, but the power of telling
the truth.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I think it got too difficult, really for me to
pretend to be normal. I just couldn't do it anymore.
Part of me wish as I could have just pretended
like everything was okay and I could be the high
performing badass that everyone thought I was and I just
could not. And once I admitted that to myself and said,
(19:28):
you know, I might not be that person, but here's
who I am instead, that's when life got a lot easier,
more comfortable. And yeah, that's when my tribe came along
and everyone was like, oh, us too, and prove that
there is a different way to live this life that
is just as valuable and just as viable.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, And how much easier it gets when you stop
pretending to be something you're not feeling. Yeah, and also
understanding that it has to be safe enough to do that, right, Like,
I think there's a lot of sort of like what's
the pop psychology headline version of that is, like, speak
your truth, claim your power. Well, it's not always safe
(20:10):
to do that.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, I mean I had to burn down my whole
life to be able to do it. Yeah, basically I
lost everything, and I was like, well, I've nothing left
to lose, so I might as well do this. People
are always like, yeah, the bravery thing. People are like, oh,
you're so brave to have like shared your story, and
I was like, there was nothing to lose anymore, so
(20:32):
there was nothing brave about it.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I have literally tried everything else possible, and now there
is nothing and this is the only option left for me.
Yeah yeah, this whole like like, let's turn it into
a hero story. Well no, no, And I think also like,
as somebody who has also put a deeply terrible personal
story out in the world wrote a book that I
(20:56):
needed when that happened, that didn't exist at that time.
It's like, look at all the good you've done in
the world, and this this conflation with yeah, sorry, I'll
love that happened to you, but you were so brave
and now you've done so much good in the world,
and in a way, I'm really glad that happened to you.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Right, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Has that horrendous narrative shown up on your doorstep?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Honestly, not too much, but I did hear it. The
other day. I heard somebody else say to someone with
complex PTSD like that's what forged Like you're forged in fire,
you know, Like, now you really need to be a
great writer.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I was like, no, yeah. Within a couple of days
of my partner drowning, I was a psychotherapist before that happened,
and people were literally coming up to me being you're
going to be such a great therapist. After this, You're
gonna help so many people. And I'm like, Okay, one,
you're actually saying that I wasn't a good therapist before,
and I actually needed a person to die in order
(21:56):
to get better at it, and that his life is
a fair tree for any people I might help later.
And I just like, we have such a weird response
to human pain and suffering that we really want it
to be tidy. If we can't pretend it didn't happen,
then we need there to be a night and shining armor,
heroic moment where somebody is all healed and they've been
(22:20):
of service to others in the world. And it's almost
no wonder that people are hesitant to tell the truth
about their own lives.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
We're confused about what trauma means, what surviving and living
with trauma or traumatic events means, and we're confused about
the role of hardship and becoming sort of like better
versions of ourselves.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Like why there needs to be a quick transformation into
positivity yep, when it's like no, this is fucked up
and sad, and like, yeah, I mean it is a
great thing that I've done this and I can and
I can help people, and I'm proud of myself. But
if like a magic fairy could show up tomorrow and
actually I could have had a great childhood and not
(23:05):
had any of this, Like, I would trade it all
in a second. Great, I would take the magicary.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yep, I would take the magic fairy. Right. It's like, well,
you wouldn't have all of these beautiful things in your life,
but like, what beautiful things would I have instead?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Right? Like stop reducing this stuff to like your little
formula to make everything work out, okay. And one of
the things that I really love about the way that
you consistently show up in all of the ways that
I've seen you show up is like you're not healed right,
Like you are not without coping mechanisms are not like right,
(23:39):
But there's this. I think we've got the folks who
read your words and read your story and see themselves
and get it that finding ways to live alongside this
in ways that reduce the friction in your heart and
your mind and relationships are like yes. And other folks
who maybe don't see themselves haven't yet seen themselves reflected
(24:01):
in that story. They're like, but you're all better now, right.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, I don't know if anyone is like you're all
better now, anyone who knows me certainly is it. But yeah,
I try to be very clear in the especially in
the last pages of the book, like it's a happy ending,
like I've learned to live with this in a way
where I can feel real joy and make a lot
(24:27):
that I'm alive, and I there's ways that I can
use what I've gotten out of this in productive like
ways to help people. But every day there's still at
least one thing that really sucks about having complex PTSD,
So I don't know what are you gonna do? And
(24:48):
there's still days where you know, I mean I have
I have, like written in this book, all these great
coping mechanisms, but doesn't mean that I use the coping
mechanisms every day. Like sure, I like like I'm much
better whether they and I know they're there, and like
knowing that they're there gives me hope. And still there's
days when I just yell at myself, like stop being crazy,
you're being crazy, stop it, And that's super healthy.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Is so healthy. As I said in the beginning, when
we were when we were talking, like I noticed recognize
what I was doing when I was preparing for our
conversation and literally yelling at myself stop being fucking crazy.
And you know, those days, Those days are what happens.
It's not that you suddenly reach this finish line and
(25:35):
you find a purpose for your story and your words
and then everything is fine, Like, Nope, still still in
the trenches over here, still in the trenches with everybody else.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
But also, what kind of like psychopath? Yeah, what kind
of psychopath is just happy all the time? You're definitely
not wrong with you if that is the case.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I love, like, like, let's do the midrash on the
redefinition of what health means. Like health to me means
when you are having a shit day, You were having
a shit day, and you don't have to pretend to
be doing anything else. Yeah, that performative positivity is pathology,
which should totally be a bumper sticker if that was
not an ecological terror to make bumper stickers.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah, I mean, like, I think it's like a diet, right,
you need a little bit of fat and sugar and
carbs and meat and veggies. If you're only eating like
one thing, you die. So I think that's kind of
how I see. Mental health is like you have to
make sure that you have a lot of you're experiencing
(26:39):
the full range of human emotion. Yeah, you know, if
your anger is so big that it's blocking out the joy,
then yeah, you should get that in check. If your
joy is so big that it's blocking out the ability
to feel sad also a problem.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, it's the timeshare of the emotional psyche, right, Like
we want all of the circuits able to fire, and
that one doesn't cancel the other out. I think we
do that weird math of like you can't be grateful
and sad at the same time.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, humans are weird. Humans are weird. I mean we're
terrified of emotion, right, Like we are a culture that
is terrified of big emotion and so like, of course
we have all of these weird little rituals to make
sure that happiness is the only thing that people see,
and it's just it's not helping anything. And I think
one of the big three lines I see not just
(27:36):
in your book, but like you're writing and writing on
journalism and racism and climate emergencies, like all of these
really difficult things. The through line that I see in
all of that stuff is the power of acknowledgement, right,
just being able to tell the truth about the situation
at hand and not even necessarily having a solution. But
that that acknowledgment of the truth in all of these
(27:58):
really deep, complex, difficult things like that is not nothing.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
I would agree with you, but I would say that,
like the through line with all of these things actually
is agency. I think with the climate stuff, with the
racism stuff, with the mental health stuff, and with everything.
And it stems from my PTSD honestly, because you know,
growing up, I always needed to have some sort of
(28:25):
control over the situation, Like the situation could very easily
get out of control and endanger my life and the
lives around me. So I always needed to like be
the mom and keep everything peaceful and keep everything unlock.
But I also think it's a deeply human desire that
like having some form of agency gives us so much
(28:48):
peace and a feeling of control and a feeling of
well well being. And I think it's really difficult to
have those when you know the world is falling apart
and looking at the news, are looking at the climate,
and so I try to find small ways in which
people can claim that agency. For themselves to help themselves
(29:09):
and the people around them. And I think that that
is a really significant way to feel those that broad
spectrum of emotions and go from feeling just anger to
feeling anger and joy or just fear, to fear and
satisfaction and grief. You know.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, I'm pausing because, like, I'm such a big fan
of agency and sovereignty. I feel like that's something that
I bring up all the time, that people have the
right to be who they are and feel how they
feel and need what they need and to be able
to have some say in how their own lives unfold,
(29:54):
and that loss of agency, that loss of sovereignty is
a source of so much suffering.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah, dehumanization. And I think agency is the heart of hope, right,
once you feel like you have some element of control,
it allows you to feel that things can get better,
It keeps you energized, and it is the antidote to despair.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
So that's I love that.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Okay, So that's a Robin Wallkimer quote. That's not me.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Her book is actually propping up my laptop, right, So
I love that you went there because season two of
the show for me is actually like where are people
finding hope because I am definitely having some moments of
like we are screwed or I'm screwed because I'm not
able to find any like hope or agency in anything.
And so I love that this, like naturally, this is
(30:53):
where you go. Like we didn't get into it in
our conversation. I can I'll leave that for folks to
read in the book. But you you wrote into your parents'
histories and your family's histories and that whole history of
violence and oppression and colonialism and war and what that
does to a family system and how that trauma and
(31:14):
pain and violence gets passed down. And you've also written
about racism and racism and journalism and how people of
color experience a lot more saturation of violence than white folks, right.
And this knowledge of violence upon violence upon violence, it's like,
(31:39):
once you start to look for it, it's easy to
see it everywhere. It's easy to see the tendrils of historical,
intergenerational cultural violence showing up in so many places. You
do this so beautifully and so skillfully in your book,
like you look at what made your parents behave and
act in the way that they did. You look at
(32:01):
that without collapsing into oh I get it now, and
so the sort of like sentimental music swelling absolution you
don't even touch Like I literally cheered when I read
that part of your book, So thank you. I think
two things here. One understanding why something a person, a family, system,
(32:23):
a culture, an organization, whatever. Understanding why they are the violent,
oppressive creatures they are does not absolve them of the
responsibility to not act out of their histories in the
violent ways that they're doing. Right, we can hold both
things at the same time. I think that we get
caught in this like, oh, I understand them, so I
(32:44):
have to excuse them, like I'm just gonna roll over
and PM myself. No, Hello, you can understand what created
a person and still hold them accountable for their actions.
I think that's a really tricky point that not a
lot of people pick up. And the other thing, coming
back to what you just described about where you find hope.
(33:04):
It's like when you start looking for the roots of violence,
like there's no end to that. You start seeing it everywhere,
and that can be really really overwhelming and pressing.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
There's no end to goodness either, Yes, you look for it, Yay,
that is true, There's no end to kindness and love
if you're looking for it, and like healing, and like
if you look at the long arc of history, I mean,
it's generally been getting a lot better than it wasn't
(33:43):
like the fifteen hundreds. Gotta say, so, you know, whereas
that's true, I mean, all I have to do is
like look at the Zoomers, honestly, and the empathy and
like the respect that they have for their feelings and
like the respect that they have for others who are
different from them. And I'm like, you know, things aren't
(34:05):
getting better, I think, And yeah, I feel angry at
Boomers a whole lot. But you know, history isn't over.
History is not done. Culture is not done. Culture isn't static.
(34:25):
It's constantly changing and evolving. And I think there will
always be violence. Look, I'm not like naive enough to
think that there is not going to be violence, that
there's not going to be grief and death and loss.
But I certainly think that I can support others in
their quest for happiness and be supported better and yeah,
(34:53):
trying to end the cycles as best as we can.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yeah, that sounds hopeful. There's great to be hopeful, hopeful, hopeful,
but not Pollyanna, We're not naive. I guess is the
word that you use there's allowed to be helpful about honestly, Like.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
I think there is that. You know, the zoom the Zoomers,
they have this thing, you know, Okay Boomer, they have
Okay Doomer Like okay Doomer, Like you're gonna say that
like the world is on fire and everything's dying and whatever,
like the whole world is going to end. Well, fuck you,
(35:35):
because you know they're fifteen and they have to write
to a full and thriving life, and so yeah, it's
kind of shitty for us to be like, yeah, the
world's on fire, everything's gonna die within thirty years without
giving them an out or another option. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
So I feel like this is a good Like I
can keep talking about hope and despair, an agency and
action forever and ever and ever and ever, but I
feel like this is probably a good place to wrap
us up. Do you want to tell the people where
they can find you and anything else you want them
to know about you or about trees?
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Sure? I am on Instagram at foufoufu, I'm on Twitter
at I'm on the radio. My book is wherever find
books are sold, Call what my Bones Know and come
during the community where it is safe to have complex BTSD.
(36:32):
And in this world that I am envisioning and dreaming
up and I'm hopeful for, we can learn to take
care of each other and be more accepting of our
traumas and learn how to repair really thoughtfully when we
have ruptures that come from this violence. I don't know
(36:53):
if that was the best, like most meaningful, profound thing
to end on. That's I think I came to.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I think that's a beautiful thing to end on. Right,
we didn't get a chance to talk about repair and
rupture that All of that stuff is in your book.
If we treated complex PTSD like a disability, this would
mean advocating for the things that we need, learning how
to do repair after a rupture. I think those are
actually good cliffhangers for us, because those are all in
(37:23):
the book. And your vision of a kinder, more honest,
more hopeful world is a really clear and beautiful and
powerful storytelling place to end and I appreciate it, and
I'm sure other folks will too, So well, thank you
so much.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
This has been a really optimistic, pleasant little romp. It's
so nice to exit a conversation about trauma, not failing,
like you just had to go through and recall all
the crappy things about your life and instead be like, ah, flowers, flowers, trees, agency,
(38:03):
and hope woo for everyone.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yes, yeah, no, you already wrote the whole book. You
don't need to relive it every time you talk to somebody. Yeah,
that's what's reading is for. All right, I'm going to
sign us off, folks. We will be right back after
this break back in a second. Each week, I leave
(38:36):
you with some questions to carry with you until we
meet again. This season is all about hope, real like
functional hope rooted in what are honestly some pretty difficult things.
Now you'll notice that Stephanie and I referenced trees and
flowers as we wrapped up our conversation on complex PTSD
(38:56):
and on hope. We had this whole side conversation on
how she made it is her own climate despair, how
she finds hope inside daily action in the service of trees.
It was a really awesome conversation, but it didn't quite
fit with the things that we've been talking about previously,
So that whole bonus conversation is going to come out
later this week. It is really sweet and has its
(39:17):
own hope inside it, So watch for that one. Although
better yet, just follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts.
That way, you will not miss anything. Now, what I
am personally taking with me from this week's episode is
a bit more kindness to myself about the ways I've
learned to survive the difficult things in my own life.
(39:39):
And it's so easy to be annoyed, especially as a
therapist and a like obsessively self reflective person, Like, it's
so easy to be annoyed with the weird ways I
act sometimes or the weird ways I think sometimes, And
I'm like, ah, after all this time, like you still
are using those old coping skills that really aren't applicable.
(40:00):
I mean, I have great coping skills, I just don't
use them all the time. And I think I can
be a little bit kinder to myself on those days
that I'm not exactly using the very best tools in
my collection. That's what I'm going to take from this
conversation today. What parts of the conversation stuck with you today?
What parts made you think about something in a new
(40:22):
way or see something differently in your life or in
somebody else's. Were there parts of Stephanie's story, especially those
parts about letting herself be seen? Were there parts of
that story that helped you feel seen. Everybody's going to
take something different from today's show, but I do hope
you find something to hold on too. I'd love to
(40:42):
hear what you've taken from this episode, what insights you
might have had, what curiosity got peeued. I don't know.
I just really like to hear from you. Check out
Refuge Grief on Instagram or here after Pod on TikTok
to see clips from the show and leave us your
thoughts and your comments on those posts. Really on any
of the social platforms Refuge Grief and hereafter Pod, and
(41:05):
be sure to tag us on your own social accounts
when you do share the show, use the hashtag here
after pod on any platform so we can find you.
The whole team really loves to see where this show
takes you. If you want to tell us how today's
show felt for you, or you have a request or
a question for upcoming explorations of difficult things, give us
(41:28):
a call at three two three six four three three
seven six eight and leave a voicemail. If you missed it,
you can find the number in the show notes or
visit Megandivine dot co. If you'd rather send an email,
you can do that too, right on the website Megandivine
dot Co. We want to hear from you. I want
to hear from you. This show, this world needs your voice. Together,
(41:55):
we can make things better even when they can't be
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scan through their podcast app looking for a new thing
to listen to. They're going to see the show description
for Hereafter and think, I don't want to listen to
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(42:17):
Let people know it really isn't all that bad in here.
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a review. Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and keep
(42:39):
on listening. Friends want more Hereafter. Grief education doesn't just
belong to end of life issues. As my dad says,
Daily Life is full of everyday grief that we don't
call grief, from daily disappointments right up through those losses
that rearrange the world. Grief is everywhere. Learning how to
(42:59):
talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or dismissive,
accidentally on purpose rude statements, Well, that's an important skill
for everybody. Find tip sheets, trainings, professional resources, and my
best selling book, It's Okay that You're Not Okay, plus
the Guided Journal for Grief at Megandivine dot Co. Hereafter
(43:20):
with Megan Divine as written and produced by me You
Guessed It Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co
produced by Elizabeth Fozio, logistical and social media support from Micah,
and edited by Houston Tilley. Music provided by Wave Crush
and occasional background noise from the air conditioning that I
(43:43):
almost always forget to turn off
I think it got too difficult really for me to
pretend to be normal. I just couldn't do it anymore.
Part of me wish as I could have just pretended
like everything was okay and I could be the high
performing badass that everyone thought I was, and I just
could not. And once I admitted that to myself and said,
(00:25):
you know, I might not be that person, but here's
who I am instead, that's when life got a lot easier,
more comfortable. And yeah, that's when my tribe came along
and everyone was like, oh, us too, and prove that
there is a different way to live this life that
is just as valuable and just as viable.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
This is here after, And I'm your host, Megan Divine,
author of the best selling book It's Okay that You're
Not Okay. Each week I bring you conversations with authors
and activists and other really cool people, all exploring what
it means to be a fully feeling human in an
often difficult world. Now, if you've lived through horrific trauma
(01:10):
or abuse, is it really fair of us to say
that the ways you've learned to cope with that trauma
or abuse are bad? Like bad? In air? Quotes here
or to use clinical speak to call your coping skills maladaptive.
This week on hereafter Stephanie Foot, author of What My
Bones Know. She joins me to talk about complex PTSD
(01:32):
and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You'll
also hear how claiming your own messy complex coping mechanisms
can help you build a community that sees you and
loves you. All of that and more coming up after
this first break Before we get started, two quick notes.
(02:00):
This episode is an encore performance. I am on break
working on a giant new project, so we're releasing a
mix of our favorite episodes from the first three seasons
of the show. Some of these conversations you might have
missed in your original seasons, and some shows just truly
deserve multiple listens so that you capture all of the goodness.
(02:20):
Second note, while we cover a lot of emotional, relational
territory and our time here together, this show is not
a substitute for skilled support with a license memntal health
provider or for professional supervision related to your work. Take
what you learn here, take your thoughts and your reflections
out into your world and talk about it. Hi, friends, Now,
(02:42):
as a survivor of trauma myself. I am really sensitive
about asking my guests to summarize the things they've lived through.
I've been on that media circuit where you just talk
about some of the worst moments of your life over
and over and over again. Like answering these deeply personal
questions about horrendous, difficult things over and over. It's just
(03:03):
it's weird. So whenever I can, I try to shift
the burden of telling the horrendous story off of my
guest and front loaded here into my introduction to the show.
And that's what I've done today. Stephanie Fu grew up
in San Jose, California, surrounded by manicured landscapes and high
achieving immigrant families. From the outside, her family looked like
(03:27):
that coveted American dream scenario, but on the inside it
was very much a nightmare. Stephanie's parents regularly beat her
and emotionally abused her, before eventually abandoning her when she
was sixteen. In twenty eighteen, Stephanie was diagnosed with complex PTSD,
(03:48):
a little understood and little studied form of post traumatic
stress disorder that can occur from repeated long term trauma.
Stephanie's best selling book, What My Bones Note tells the
story of that intense childhood abuse and the coping patterns
that helped her survive what she had to survive. The
book is also a story of intergenerational trauma, immigration, and
(04:11):
understanding the roots of violence, while not excusing the violence itself.
Just that last bit is such a super important point,
and I'm really glad that we got to talk about
it a little bit in this conversation now. Books on
complex PTSD, like many other diagnoses or conditions that we have,
books on complex PTSD can be really dry and honestly
(04:33):
kind of clueless and cruel in their descriptions about people
who carry long term behaviors or patterns of behavior due
to the trauma and abuse they survived. So you'll hear
it in our conversation today. But Stephanie really wants you
all to know that her book is written by a
trauma survivor for other trauma survivors, not just child aboose,
(04:56):
but war and other kind of repeated horrible experiences. She
wants you to know that the book focuses on healing,
but the kind of healing that can only come when
you respect the ways that each person managed to survive
what they went through. I promise you that's going to
make more sense as you listen to the show. But
(05:16):
if you're haunted by any type of trauma or you
know someone who is, this conversation with Stephanie fu is
a great introduction to complex PTSD and the work of survivorship.
So let's get into it. Content notes everybody, This episode
contains non graphic reference to abuse and trauma, and it
includes a small amount of swearing, well.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Hi, hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Absolutely, I sat down and read your book cover to
cover over the course of like eight hours on Sunday.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Oh wow fast.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
So one of the things that I would really love
to talk about throwing it out there is like you
write a lot about how we pathologize responses to trauma.
Mm hmm, no matter what happens to you, like the
healthy responses to be completely unaffected, like rise above and
always present as really chill. There's a section I particularly
(06:14):
liked in your book when you talk about meeting Joey
for the first time and you're like, I am pretending
to be completely non anxious and chill and all of
these things, and he's like Okay, but tell me what's
actually happening. Yeah, so, can we talk about that like that,
the ways that we pathologize responses to trauma.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah so, I think, you know, just the word trauma itself,
I think is pathologized. I think there's this understanding that
trauma itself, experiencing it makes you broken. I remember reading
this Vox article where they were saying, you know, be
careful about how you use the word trauma, because if
(06:56):
you describe yourself as traumatized, that is like that you
are broken and helpless and like you're robbing yourself resiliency
because you're basically admitting that you know there's no hope
for yourself and you're giving up.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And I was like, wait, what whoo? Why would you
define I mean, yeah, I mean I guess it's a
problem to say that you are traumatized if that's how
you're going to define trauma. But I don't think trauma
needs to be defined in that way. I think the
fact of the matter is that we all experience some
form of trauma, and trauma is a scientific adaptation to
(07:40):
keep us alive. Like if you're bitten by a snake,
you're going to be afraid of snakes. If you touch
a hot stove, you're going to be really careful around
a hot stove, Like it's basically your brain wiring threat
and saying like, hey, this is something that's really dangerous
that could kill you, so be vigilant around the thing
that could kill you. And you know, for some of us,
(08:04):
those triggers like being afraid of snakes are maybe more
sensible than others, not sensible, but more like manageable than others.
Like being afraid of anyone who's using a loud voice.
You know, Yeah, being afraid of someone who's yelling. You're
going to encounter that much more in life. That's harder
to avoid, right than snakes.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I think it's really interesting that like the self definition
of trauma, right, that we have this idea that it's
not the incident of trauma that's the problem, it's allowing
yourself to identify as traumatized. I think we have that
as like, oh, you're being a victim and you're never
going to be able to get out of this, Like
(08:46):
it's such a weird like it's so weird, it's so weird,
like that that whole nothing bad should happen to you.
If it does, your your prime directive is to be
resilient and unaffected, and don't even name it as a
bad thing, because that's almost like invoking badness if you
(09:06):
call the bad thing bad.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Exactly. I think it's completely missing the fact that trauma
can be an adaptation. There's lots of fears and responses
to trauma that actually can be healthy, that actually can
make us sort of extremely useful in a variety of
different situations. And it's also just not a very empathetic
(09:32):
or kind place to come from considering that all of
us have some form of trauma. If you're going to
judge everyone for their trauma response instead of stepping in
and saying like, hey, are you having a trauma response?
Do you need a minute? What do you need? How
can I help you? How can I support you in this,
there's going to be a lot more conflict, judgment, and
refusal to make space. And I think it's very ablest
(09:57):
and like, what is this perfect, untouched population of people anyway,
honestly that they've never gone through anything hard?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like that common default
that everybody is pretending to be okay when We're not okay,
which is basically like the entire reason for my work
and this show is to start talking about how hard
it is to be human and the stuff we go through,
and that we adapt to the things that we go through.
And that's not the same as resilienced or overcoming, but
(10:27):
it's more like shit happens to you, and some of
the ways that you survive that and deal with that
are awesome in the right context, and some of those
ways are really difficult, but they're not wrong.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah. Yeah, it's the judgment of that that makes it
impossible to live with, not the challenge itself.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Right, Stephanie, can you give us a description of complex
PTSD and how that's different than I don't know, like
the post traumatic stress disorder that people might know.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, so PTSD you can get quote unquote traditional PTSD
from a singular traumatic event. So let's say you're hit
by a car that can give you PTSD. Complex PTSD
is kind of like if you were hit by that
car every week for three years. It's when the trauma
happens over and over and over, and unless you are
(11:23):
like a tremendously unlucky individual, the only way that you're
probably getting complex PTSD is from a difficult relationship with
other people. So having an abuser, suffering from child abuse,
domestic violence, or living in a war zone. So complex
PTSD in particular tends to really erode people's trust of
(11:48):
other human beings and make relationships a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah. Yeah, when that is what you absorb, right, Our
relationships tell us about the world, and when your relationships
to you that the world is an unsafe place, then
the world is an unsafe place, and we learn lots
of different ways to survive that place. When I am
having a conversation with an author who has a book out,
like I don't want to give the book away because
(12:14):
I really really want people to read the book. We
were talking earlier that like my perfectionist overwork tendencies. I'm like,
I'm basically going to develop a book report on your
book for everybody, but like, no, stop it, right. A
book is a sort of a one way conversation and
the sparks that we gather from that, like, that's that's
where that's really interesting to me. There was actually a
tweet that you had out about what My Bones Know
(12:37):
is now going into its six printing in five months.
Thank you to the therapists and teachers who have been
assigning it, the caretakers who have been studying it, and
most of all the survivors for opening your hearts to it.
This is like the dream, right, the dream here of
taking something deeply personal, deeply painful. It's not easy to
(12:57):
write about these really intense personal experiences put them out
into the world for public display, inter section. Yeah, and
that knowing that doing that means something to people. Yeah, yeah, right,
Can we talk about that a little bit, that that
interesting zone of here's this really intimate personal stuff that
(13:19):
was probably not very easy to write either, certainly wasn't
easy to live and putting it out in the world
and seeing the impact of that. What's that been like
for you? To see the impact of your story in
the world.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
It's been tremendously meaningful, because well, when I was first diagnosed,
there was nothing like my book out there. Everything that
I read was very clinical. Most of it was not
meant for people like me to read. It was clear
that it wasn't. A lot of it was not made
for people actually with complex PTSD to read, because they
(13:53):
would talk shit about us. They'd be like complex people
with complex PTSD are so difficult to treat. They are
you know, they are burdens, they are pain in the ass,
they are whatever. They would say all of these things,
and I was like, did you think that I'd be
too stupid to read this? Like what? I don't understand?
(14:14):
A lot of it was very pathologizing, a lot of
it was very dry, just not very fun to write. Yeah,
And you know, I was a person who was coming
from a storytelling background. Obviously, it told stories for ten years,
first person stories, other people's first person stories. And I
realized the impact that had for empathy, for a narrative,
(14:38):
for feeling less alone. You know, I'd helped so many
other groups feel less alone by showcasing these important stories,
but never really my own. And so when I was
reading all of these books and recognizing that, you know,
that first person story just did not exist, and it
made me feel so isolated and freakish and damaged, I
(15:01):
guess and I knew that if I healed from this
in any kind of way, I would need to write
about it, because that story was just needed. I didn't
want anybody else to feel as completely isolated as I
did after diagnosis, And I always told myself in this
process that like, my story did not represent everyone with
(15:22):
complex PTSD. I mean, it's obviously a spectrum. We all
have different symptoms and experiences. And I told myself that
if one person benefited from the book, then the four
years of creating it would be worth it, It'd be okay.
So to have the response be so overwhelmingly positive, to
(15:46):
get like dozens of messages every day saying like you
got it, that's exactly what it's like, it's been really wonderful.
And it's made me realize how truly needed this was
and to be able to give words to people for this. Yeah,
I mean, I think it's been great on a couple
different levels. I think first of all, it's made me
(16:08):
feel less alone because I didn't really have many people
in my life with complex PTSD, and now I see
people with all different backgrounds and careers, from herbalists to
doctors to like, you know, farmers, all messaging me saying like,
your experience is my experience. Certainly it makes me feel
(16:28):
a lot less freakish myself and apparently have helped other
people do that. And yeah, it also give some sort
of meaning and power to like the true anguish that
I've had to experience, and it gives some affirmation to
that self loathing that I've suffered from for so long.
(16:49):
That I don't deserve to be here. You know, that
I'm too broken to be here, that I don't fit
in with everyone else. I guess those feelings and more important,
like learning how to corral those feelings has actually made
me sort of able to shine a light for those
who come behind me and has shown me that I
(17:11):
really do have a place of importance here, that we
all have a place of importance of being the healers
who can lead the way.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It's so counterintuitive or counter to the ways that we
talk about quote unquote mental health in this culture. Right
that if you say or if you're feeling alone in something,
or you're feeling like a freak, you're feeling like the
only one who's experiencing these things, then your call to
perform harder, right, perform like everyone else a little bit
(17:39):
harder to fit in. If you're feeling lonely, you have
to be more like everybody else. And the reverse of
that is actually what's accurate. The willingness to tell the
truth about who you are and where you are and
what you're feeling and what you're experiencing that stripped down,
not bright, shiny package truth like that is how not
(18:02):
only you feel less alone, but others feel lesson. It's
like how we find each other.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, okay, let's get back to the.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Writer, an all around awesome person, Stephanie Fuh. There's a
site called Glow in the Woods that was started by
I'm going to space on her last name, but her
first name is Kate and one of the descriptions it's
a like a crowdsourced blog community platform for people who
have experienced baby death, and she says, I envisioned a
(18:42):
glow in the Woods, a place where all of the
medusas could come and take their hats off, this place
where nobody's afraid of your snakes because they have their own. Yeah,
and I really see that power of storytelling, and not
just the power of story, but the power of telling
the truth.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I think it got too difficult, really for me to
pretend to be normal. I just couldn't do it anymore.
Part of me wish as I could have just pretended
like everything was okay and I could be the high
performing badass that everyone thought I was and I just
could not. And once I admitted that to myself and said,
(19:28):
you know, I might not be that person, but here's
who I am instead, that's when life got a lot easier,
more comfortable. And yeah, that's when my tribe came along
and everyone was like, oh, us too, and prove that
there is a different way to live this life that
is just as valuable and just as viable.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, And how much easier it gets when you stop
pretending to be something you're not feeling. Yeah, and also
understanding that it has to be safe enough to do that, right, Like,
I think there's a lot of sort of like what's
the pop psychology headline version of that is, like, speak
your truth, claim your power. Well, it's not always safe
(20:10):
to do that.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, I mean I had to burn down my whole
life to be able to do it. Yeah, basically I
lost everything, and I was like, well, I've nothing left
to lose, so I might as well do this. People
are always like, yeah, the bravery thing. People are like, oh,
you're so brave to have like shared your story, and
I was like, there was nothing to lose anymore, so
(20:32):
there was nothing brave about it.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I have literally tried everything else possible, and now there
is nothing and this is the only option left for me.
Yeah yeah, this whole like like, let's turn it into
a hero story. Well no, no, And I think also like,
as somebody who has also put a deeply terrible personal
story out in the world wrote a book that I
(20:56):
needed when that happened, that didn't exist at that time.
It's like, look at all the good you've done in
the world, and this this conflation with yeah, sorry, I'll
love that happened to you, but you were so brave
and now you've done so much good in the world,
and in a way, I'm really glad that happened to you.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Right, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Has that horrendous narrative shown up on your doorstep?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Honestly, not too much, but I did hear it. The
other day. I heard somebody else say to someone with
complex PTSD like that's what forged Like you're forged in fire,
you know, Like, now you really need to be a
great writer.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I was like, no, yeah. Within a couple of days
of my partner drowning, I was a psychotherapist before that happened,
and people were literally coming up to me being you're
going to be such a great therapist. After this, You're
gonna help so many people. And I'm like, Okay, one,
you're actually saying that I wasn't a good therapist before,
and I actually needed a person to die in order
(21:56):
to get better at it, and that his life is
a fair tree for any people I might help later.
And I just like, we have such a weird response
to human pain and suffering that we really want it
to be tidy. If we can't pretend it didn't happen,
then we need there to be a night and shining armor,
heroic moment where somebody is all healed and they've been
(22:20):
of service to others in the world. And it's almost
no wonder that people are hesitant to tell the truth
about their own lives.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
We're confused about what trauma means, what surviving and living
with trauma or traumatic events means, and we're confused about
the role of hardship and becoming sort of like better
versions of ourselves.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Like why there needs to be a quick transformation into
positivity yep, when it's like no, this is fucked up
and sad, and like, yeah, I mean it is a
great thing that I've done this and I can and
I can help people, and I'm proud of myself. But
if like a magic fairy could show up tomorrow and
actually I could have had a great childhood and not
(23:05):
had any of this, Like, I would trade it all
in a second. Great, I would take the magicary.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yep, I would take the magic fairy. Right. It's like, well,
you wouldn't have all of these beautiful things in your life,
but like, what beautiful things would I have instead?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Right? Like stop reducing this stuff to like your little
formula to make everything work out, okay. And one of
the things that I really love about the way that
you consistently show up in all of the ways that
I've seen you show up is like you're not healed right,
Like you are not without coping mechanisms are not like right,
(23:39):
But there's this. I think we've got the folks who
read your words and read your story and see themselves
and get it that finding ways to live alongside this
in ways that reduce the friction in your heart and
your mind and relationships are like yes. And other folks
who maybe don't see themselves haven't yet seen themselves reflected
(24:01):
in that story. They're like, but you're all better now, right.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, I don't know if anyone is like you're all
better now, anyone who knows me certainly is it. But yeah,
I try to be very clear in the especially in
the last pages of the book, like it's a happy ending,
like I've learned to live with this in a way
where I can feel real joy and make a lot
(24:27):
that I'm alive, and I there's ways that I can
use what I've gotten out of this in productive like
ways to help people. But every day there's still at
least one thing that really sucks about having complex PTSD,
So I don't know what are you gonna do? And
(24:48):
there's still days where you know, I mean I have
I have, like written in this book, all these great
coping mechanisms, but doesn't mean that I use the coping
mechanisms every day. Like sure, I like like I'm much
better whether they and I know they're there, and like
knowing that they're there gives me hope. And still there's
days when I just yell at myself, like stop being crazy,
you're being crazy, stop it, And that's super healthy.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Is so healthy. As I said in the beginning, when
we were when we were talking, like I noticed recognize
what I was doing when I was preparing for our
conversation and literally yelling at myself stop being fucking crazy.
And you know, those days, Those days are what happens.
It's not that you suddenly reach this finish line and
(25:35):
you find a purpose for your story and your words
and then everything is fine, Like, Nope, still still in
the trenches over here, still in the trenches with everybody else.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
But also, what kind of like psychopath? Yeah, what kind
of psychopath is just happy all the time? You're definitely
not wrong with you if that is the case.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I love, like, like, let's do the midrash on the
redefinition of what health means. Like health to me means
when you are having a shit day, You were having
a shit day, and you don't have to pretend to
be doing anything else. Yeah, that performative positivity is pathology,
which should totally be a bumper sticker if that was
not an ecological terror to make bumper stickers.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah, I mean, like, I think it's like a diet, right,
you need a little bit of fat and sugar and
carbs and meat and veggies. If you're only eating like
one thing, you die. So I think that's kind of
how I see. Mental health is like you have to
make sure that you have a lot of you're experiencing
(26:39):
the full range of human emotion. Yeah, you know, if
your anger is so big that it's blocking out the joy,
then yeah, you should get that in check. If your
joy is so big that it's blocking out the ability
to feel sad also a problem.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, it's the timeshare of the emotional psyche, right, Like
we want all of the circuits able to fire, and
that one doesn't cancel the other out. I think we
do that weird math of like you can't be grateful
and sad at the same time.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, humans are weird. Humans are weird. I mean we're
terrified of emotion, right, Like we are a culture that
is terrified of big emotion and so like, of course
we have all of these weird little rituals to make
sure that happiness is the only thing that people see,
and it's just it's not helping anything. And I think
one of the big three lines I see not just
(27:36):
in your book, but like you're writing and writing on
journalism and racism and climate emergencies, like all of these
really difficult things. The through line that I see in
all of that stuff is the power of acknowledgement, right,
just being able to tell the truth about the situation
at hand and not even necessarily having a solution. But
that that acknowledgment of the truth in all of these
(27:58):
really deep, complex, difficult things like that is not nothing.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
I would agree with you, but I would say that,
like the through line with all of these things actually
is agency. I think with the climate stuff, with the
racism stuff, with the mental health stuff, and with everything.
And it stems from my PTSD honestly, because you know,
growing up, I always needed to have some sort of
(28:25):
control over the situation, Like the situation could very easily
get out of control and endanger my life and the
lives around me. So I always needed to like be
the mom and keep everything peaceful and keep everything unlock.
But I also think it's a deeply human desire that
like having some form of agency gives us so much
(28:48):
peace and a feeling of control and a feeling of
well well being. And I think it's really difficult to
have those when you know the world is falling apart
and looking at the news, are looking at the climate,
and so I try to find small ways in which
people can claim that agency. For themselves to help themselves
(29:09):
and the people around them. And I think that that
is a really significant way to feel those that broad
spectrum of emotions and go from feeling just anger to
feeling anger and joy or just fear, to fear and
satisfaction and grief. You know.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, I'm pausing because, like, I'm such a big fan
of agency and sovereignty. I feel like that's something that
I bring up all the time, that people have the
right to be who they are and feel how they
feel and need what they need and to be able
to have some say in how their own lives unfold,
(29:54):
and that loss of agency, that loss of sovereignty is
a source of so much suffering.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah, dehumanization. And I think agency is the heart of hope, right,
once you feel like you have some element of control,
it allows you to feel that things can get better,
It keeps you energized, and it is the antidote to despair.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
So that's I love that.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Okay, So that's a Robin Wallkimer quote. That's not me.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Her book is actually propping up my laptop, right, So
I love that you went there because season two of
the show for me is actually like where are people
finding hope because I am definitely having some moments of
like we are screwed or I'm screwed because I'm not
able to find any like hope or agency in anything.
And so I love that this, like naturally, this is
(30:53):
where you go. Like we didn't get into it in
our conversation. I can I'll leave that for folks to
read in the book. But you you wrote into your parents'
histories and your family's histories and that whole history of
violence and oppression and colonialism and war and what that
does to a family system and how that trauma and
(31:14):
pain and violence gets passed down. And you've also written
about racism and racism and journalism and how people of
color experience a lot more saturation of violence than white folks, right.
And this knowledge of violence upon violence upon violence, it's like,
(31:39):
once you start to look for it, it's easy to
see it everywhere. It's easy to see the tendrils of historical,
intergenerational cultural violence showing up in so many places. You
do this so beautifully and so skillfully in your book,
like you look at what made your parents behave and
act in the way that they did. You look at
(32:01):
that without collapsing into oh I get it now, and
so the sort of like sentimental music swelling absolution you
don't even touch Like I literally cheered when I read
that part of your book, So thank you. I think
two things here. One understanding why something a person, a family, system,
(32:23):
a culture, an organization, whatever. Understanding why they are the violent,
oppressive creatures they are does not absolve them of the
responsibility to not act out of their histories in the
violent ways that they're doing. Right, we can hold both
things at the same time. I think that we get
caught in this like, oh, I understand them, so I
(32:44):
have to excuse them, like I'm just gonna roll over
and PM myself. No, Hello, you can understand what created
a person and still hold them accountable for their actions.
I think that's a really tricky point that not a
lot of people pick up. And the other thing, coming
back to what you just described about where you find hope.
(33:04):
It's like when you start looking for the roots of violence,
like there's no end to that. You start seeing it everywhere,
and that can be really really overwhelming and pressing.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
There's no end to goodness either, Yes, you look for it, Yay,
that is true, There's no end to kindness and love
if you're looking for it, and like healing, and like
if you look at the long arc of history, I mean,
it's generally been getting a lot better than it wasn't
(33:43):
like the fifteen hundreds. Gotta say, so, you know, whereas
that's true, I mean, all I have to do is
like look at the Zoomers, honestly, and the empathy and
like the respect that they have for their feelings and
like the respect that they have for others who are
different from them. And I'm like, you know, things aren't
(34:05):
getting better, I think, And yeah, I feel angry at
Boomers a whole lot. But you know, history isn't over.
History is not done. Culture is not done. Culture isn't static.
(34:25):
It's constantly changing and evolving. And I think there will
always be violence. Look, I'm not like naive enough to
think that there is not going to be violence, that
there's not going to be grief and death and loss.
But I certainly think that I can support others in
their quest for happiness and be supported better and yeah,
(34:53):
trying to end the cycles as best as we can.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yeah, that sounds hopeful. There's great to be hopeful, hopeful, hopeful,
but not Pollyanna, We're not naive. I guess is the
word that you use there's allowed to be helpful about honestly, Like.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
I think there is that. You know, the zoom the Zoomers,
they have this thing, you know, Okay Boomer, they have
Okay Doomer Like okay Doomer, Like you're gonna say that
like the world is on fire and everything's dying and whatever,
like the whole world is going to end. Well, fuck you,
(35:35):
because you know they're fifteen and they have to write
to a full and thriving life, and so yeah, it's
kind of shitty for us to be like, yeah, the
world's on fire, everything's gonna die within thirty years without
giving them an out or another option. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
So I feel like this is a good Like I
can keep talking about hope and despair, an agency and
action forever and ever and ever and ever, but I
feel like this is probably a good place to wrap
us up. Do you want to tell the people where
they can find you and anything else you want them
to know about you or about trees?
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Sure? I am on Instagram at foufoufu, I'm on Twitter
at I'm on the radio. My book is wherever find
books are sold, Call what my Bones Know and come
during the community where it is safe to have complex BTSD.
(36:32):
And in this world that I am envisioning and dreaming
up and I'm hopeful for, we can learn to take
care of each other and be more accepting of our
traumas and learn how to repair really thoughtfully when we
have ruptures that come from this violence. I don't know
(36:53):
if that was the best, like most meaningful, profound thing
to end on. That's I think I came to.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I think that's a beautiful thing to end on. Right,
we didn't get a chance to talk about repair and
rupture that All of that stuff is in your book.
If we treated complex PTSD like a disability, this would
mean advocating for the things that we need, learning how
to do repair after a rupture. I think those are
actually good cliffhangers for us, because those are all in
(37:23):
the book. And your vision of a kinder, more honest,
more hopeful world is a really clear and beautiful and
powerful storytelling place to end and I appreciate it, and
I'm sure other folks will too, So well, thank you
so much.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
This has been a really optimistic, pleasant little romp. It's
so nice to exit a conversation about trauma, not failing,
like you just had to go through and recall all
the crappy things about your life and instead be like, ah, flowers, flowers, trees, agency,
(38:03):
and hope woo for everyone.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yes, yeah, no, you already wrote the whole book. You
don't need to relive it every time you talk to somebody. Yeah,
that's what's reading is for. All right, I'm going to
sign us off, folks. We will be right back after
this break back in a second. Each week, I leave
(38:36):
you with some questions to carry with you until we
meet again. This season is all about hope, real like
functional hope rooted in what are honestly some pretty difficult things.
Now you'll notice that Stephanie and I referenced trees and
flowers as we wrapped up our conversation on complex PTSD
(38:56):
and on hope. We had this whole side conversation on
how she made it is her own climate despair, how
she finds hope inside daily action in the service of trees.
It was a really awesome conversation, but it didn't quite
fit with the things that we've been talking about previously,
So that whole bonus conversation is going to come out
later this week. It is really sweet and has its
(39:17):
own hope inside it, So watch for that one. Although
better yet, just follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts.
That way, you will not miss anything. Now, what I
am personally taking with me from this week's episode is
a bit more kindness to myself about the ways I've
learned to survive the difficult things in my own life.
(39:39):
And it's so easy to be annoyed, especially as a
therapist and a like obsessively self reflective person, Like, it's
so easy to be annoyed with the weird ways I
act sometimes or the weird ways I think sometimes, And
I'm like, ah, after all this time, like you still
are using those old coping skills that really aren't applicable.
(40:00):
I mean, I have great coping skills, I just don't
use them all the time. And I think I can
be a little bit kinder to myself on those days
that I'm not exactly using the very best tools in
my collection. That's what I'm going to take from this
conversation today. What parts of the conversation stuck with you today?
What parts made you think about something in a new
(40:22):
way or see something differently in your life or in
somebody else's. Were there parts of Stephanie's story, especially those
parts about letting herself be seen? Were there parts of
that story that helped you feel seen. Everybody's going to
take something different from today's show, but I do hope
you find something to hold on too. I'd love to
(40:42):
hear what you've taken from this episode, what insights you
might have had, what curiosity got peeued. I don't know.
I just really like to hear from you. Check out
Refuge Grief on Instagram or here after Pod on TikTok
to see clips from the show and leave us your
thoughts and your comments on those posts. Really on any
of the social platforms Refuge Grief and hereafter Pod, and
(41:05):
be sure to tag us on your own social accounts
when you do share the show, use the hashtag here
after pod on any platform so we can find you.
The whole team really loves to see where this show
takes you. If you want to tell us how today's
show felt for you, or you have a request or
a question for upcoming explorations of difficult things, give us
(41:28):
a call at three two three six four three three
seven six eight and leave a voicemail. If you missed it,
you can find the number in the show notes or
visit Megandivine dot co. If you'd rather send an email,
you can do that too, right on the website Megandivine
dot Co. We want to hear from you. I want
to hear from you. This show, this world needs your voice. Together,
(41:55):
we can make things better even when they can't be
made right. You know how most people are going to
scan through their podcast app looking for a new thing
to listen to. They're going to see the show description
for Hereafter and think, I don't want to listen to
difficult things, even if super cool people are talking about them. Well,
that's where you come in your reviews of the show.
(42:17):
Let people know it really isn't all that bad in here.
We talk about heavy stuff, yes, but it's in the
service of making things better for everyone. So everyone needs
to listen. Spread the word in your friend groups, your
professional circles on social media, and click through to leave
a review. Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and keep
(42:39):
on listening. Friends want more Hereafter. Grief education doesn't just
belong to end of life issues. As my dad says,
Daily Life is full of everyday grief that we don't
call grief, from daily disappointments right up through those losses
that rearrange the world. Grief is everywhere. Learning how to
(42:59):
talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or dismissive,
accidentally on purpose rude statements, Well, that's an important skill
for everybody. Find tip sheets, trainings, professional resources, and my
best selling book, It's Okay that You're Not Okay, plus
the Guided Journal for Grief at Megandivine dot Co. Hereafter
(43:20):
with Megan Divine as written and produced by me You
Guessed It Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co
produced by Elizabeth Fozio, logistical and social media support from Micah,
and edited by Houston Tilley. Music provided by Wave Crush
and occasional background noise from the air conditioning that I
(43:43):
almost always forget to turn off
Host
Megan Devine
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