It’s no secret that healthcare professionals and caregivers of all kinds are stretched beyond their limits. We can’t look to healthcare systems themselves to give us the care and attention we need, so where CAN we go for support (and answers)? Don’t miss this week’s episode with guests Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
In this episode we cover:
- why it’s important to look beyond the identified patient to the invisible web of caregivers
- the realities of caregiver burnout and stress
- the one practice you can do even - and especially - when you have no time to care for yourself
- do you stay or do you go? Making decisions for yourself inside this healthcare system catastrophe
Guest info and resources:
Sensei Chodo Robert Campbell is co-founder of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care — a non-profit organization that focuses on the teaching of Zen and Buddhist practice with the goal to make them more accessible to people all around the world. His passion lies in bereavement counseling and advocating for change in the way our healthcare institutions work with the dying. Find Chodo and the NYZC @newyorkzencenter on IG, and online at zencare.org
Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, Jungian psychotherapist, and Certified Chaplaincy Educator. Koshin is a world-renowned thought leader in contemplative care. He is the author of Wholehearted: Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up and the co-editor of Awake at the Bedside: Contemplative Teachings on Palliative and End of Life Care. His work has been featured in the New York Times, PBS, CBS Sunday Morning, Tricycle among other publications. Find him on IG @koshinpaleyellison
If you work in healthcare, I very strongly recommend you check out New York Zen Center’s Contemplative Medicine Fellowship. Registrations for the 2022-2023 fellowship are open now.
To hear one of my favorite passages of all time, read by Chodo Robert Campbell, check out the first video at this link. The whole video is a lovely teaching from the founders of the Zen Center for Contemplative Care.
All of the Zen Center’s offerings, from books to support groups to ongoing educational opportunities can be found at zencare.org.
Questions to Carry with you:
- special bonus questions and meditations from our guests! I’ll be back next week with my own QtCWY, but don’t miss this edition!
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
To submit your questions by voicemail, call us at (323) 643-3768 or visit megandevine.co
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, & TW
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed - at refugeingrief.com/book
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Here After and I'm your host, Megan Divine.
This week's show is a repeat performance. We'll be back
with season two soon enough, but for right now, enjoy
this episode and visit the back catalog of episodes two
while you're at it. This is Here After and I'm
your host, Megan Divine. Each week we tackle big questions
from therapists, caregivers, and other helpful folks that let us
(00:22):
explore how to show up after life goes horribly wrong.
This week showing up to the full catastrophe of caregiving
personally and professionally with incredibly special guests Cotion, Paileey Ellison,
and Robert Chodo Campbell, founders of the New York Zen
Center for Contemplative Care. Don't miss this one, friends, We'll
(00:43):
be right back after this first break. Before we get started,
one quick note, well, I hope you find a lot
of useful information in our time here together. This show
is not a substitute for skilled support with a license
mental health provider or for professional supervision related to your work.
(01:04):
Hey friends, I'm going to keep my intro here brief today,
at least brief from me, because I want to use
all the time we possibly have available for you to
hear from both of our guests on the show today.
Two people I love and admire and respect so much
Coach and Paley Ellison and Choto. Robert Campbell Coach and
Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, young and psychotherapist,
(01:27):
and certified chaplaincy educator. He and Robert Schoto Campbell co
founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, which
offers contemplative approaches to care through education, personal caregiving, and
Zen practice. Through the Center, they provide a lot of
resources and education, but I know them best to their
Contemplative Medicine Fellowship, a year long training for physicians, nurse practitioners,
(01:48):
and physician assistants who want to lead a change in
the culture of care. You can probably tell that I
am reading that directly off of their website because I
want to make sure I describe it correctly. But there
are two of the kindest, most ful people I have
ever met, and I know a lot of people. But
enough about me. Let's get to our guests. Coach and Choto,
thank you so much for being here. It's a delight
(02:10):
to be here. It's such a delight to be here,
especially For me, I get to sit next to my
husband of twenty years. I get to be in front
of all your beautiful faces. Can believe, Tanya and Megan.
It's just a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful way to begin my day.
I cheat. The afternoon time is elastic. I'm already getting
(02:34):
that faces choto. What are you talking about? This is
supposed to be a brief intro and he's doing that
thing where he just you know, you roll your your
hands over the off screen, off screen, you roller hands
off screen. You can have a little unbelievable what's your
intro moment? God, I'm so glad to have you so coaching.
(02:59):
The last time that you and I were in a
gathering together, it was probably we've probably done it since,
but it was like April, sort of height of the
early pandemic in New York City, and I remember it
was an online event, obviously pandemic, and you were in
the middle of speaking, and suddenly the sirens behind you
sort of drowned out your voice, and you just stopped
(03:21):
and closed your eyes, and you said so sweetly to
the audience, every siren is a chance to practice. And
you took a beat, and then you just rolled along
with whatever you had been saying about being present at
the bedside of the suffering or the dying or those
facing difficult medical stories. It was such a beautiful moment,
(03:42):
and I actually told our producers here that when I
said that, I was probably gonna cry, because I do
cry every single episode because I'm a human with feelings.
But that moment, for me really encapsulates what the two
of you do. Right, just when humanity intersects with the
moment that we're in, that's really where the two of
you shine. I don't really have a question there, but like,
(04:04):
that's what I feel about you too. One of the
other things that comes to mind when we hear the
sirens on twenty third Street is we often will say
to students or members in the zendom at that time,
you know, let's all just hope that whoever is in
an ambulance gets the hospital in time. Let's hope that
(04:26):
the technicians in the ambulance can do everything they can
to save this life. And when the fire engines go by,
it's the same thing. It's hope to get there on
time to save members. In total. Yeah, it's just that
that moment of connection, right, I think I picked up
from you saying that in caution that one of Simon
goes by, I just like close my eyes for a
(04:47):
second and say good luck for everyone, right, the person
in the vehicle, the family and friends that surround that,
the people who are driving that vehicle, and the people
at the medical facilities who will receive them, right, all
of those concentric rings in that moment. I think that
what's so striking is that our life is filled with
(05:09):
what are sometimes called interruptions and annoyances or you know,
the fly and ointment or whatever it is. And whether
it's a siren or you know, someone not responding to
you in the way that you wished it was, or
get it receiving a diagnosis that you wish you didn't receive,
(05:31):
or someone has died that you wish didn't die. To me,
the opportunity is always saying, well, this is what's happening,
and how do I actually receive it and welcome what's here,
whether it's a siren or a wail from our own chest,
because we're just missing and yearning for someone who has died,
(05:56):
you know, thinking about you know a friend of ours, Stanley,
and and he was in the grocery store aisle and
picking up a tomato, and he burst into tears because
the smell of the tomato reminded him of his wife
who had died twenty years before. And there's no interruption,
and after he wept, he just said, look at this tomato.
(06:19):
I love what you said about concentric circles, because when
we were with someone who is dying or someone who
is suffering in the hospital, we often think that all
the attention and usually ninety percent of the attention should
be focused on the patient of the person in the hospital,
but we forget the speaking of concentric circles, we forget
(06:43):
about the care givers. We forget about the nurses, aids,
the home held days, the doctors, the janitor that brings,
you know, the cleans the room, the person that brings
the food to the room, as well as all the
family members. Of course, we tend to forget all the
people involved in one patient's care. So I love that
(07:03):
idea in the illustration that you're bringing up concentric circles,
and it just continue to ripple out. And if you consider,
for instance, the home health date or the nurse's assistant
in a nursing home who has maybe two three hours
of travel to get to where they need to go.
How does that affect ripple out into the family when
(07:26):
usually as a female, when she gets home after taking
four bus rides or two bus rides or a subway
in a bus ride, and she's exhausted, and she has
to make dinner and she has to take care of
the kids. So it's not just about the one person
and one identified patients, shall we say? So that concentric
circle is really important to keep in mind. That's what's occurring.
(07:50):
And it brings up from me this idea that invisible
and not invisible web of helpers that we just expect
them to keep helping, right, We just expect them to
sort of be machinery of help, right, or or helpful
machines and just keep going. And I love what you
said there. Total like often women in these positions and
they come home and they have to serve more and
(08:12):
they have to keep going. And certainly, now like none
of this stuff with the pressure on the health care professions,
none of the stuff is new. But seeing all of
this trauma and stress and death and loss and suffering
on top of old systemic fractures like this is really
what I wanted to have you here with us today
(08:32):
to talk about, Like I think in my in my
notes too, I was like, I feel like we need
to have a conversation inside the apocalypse for those networks
of helpers, the therapists and the home health aids and
the people who serve the food and work in the kitchens,
and the doctors and the social workers, and what we
keep asking them to bear and how do we even
(08:54):
talk about not being able to bear that anymore? And honestly,
you know, normally, when I have a guest on the show,
I sort through the listener questions and I find things
that intersect with the guests so that we can open
up those conversations. And this time, as I was preparing,
I just found myself saying, like, I don't know what
to say about this stuff. I don't know what to
say about the compounded weight on the I don't know communities, legions,
(09:18):
legions maybe of people we lean on for help, And
where are they supposed to lean for help when we
keep looking for them to show up and serve and
show up and serve and show up and serve and
not stop. This is something that we hold so dear
to our hearts, you know, and I think that one
of the things that we've been concerned about these folks
(09:41):
for a long time, you know, Chatter and I have
been teaching in particular physicians for fifteen years and working
with them and really figuring out how what's useful, how
do we learn how to drop into ourselves and in
particular physicians ahead of the highest rates of suicide, divorce,
(10:03):
drug and alcohol abuse as well as one of the
unique things is that as the most people leave that
profession of being of doctoring. So we've been deeply concerned
and then when the pandemic hit, we realized that we
needed to do something that we needed to meet that need,
(10:25):
and so we created this Fellowship in Contemplative Medicine, this
year long fellowship for physicians, nurse practitioners and physician assistance
to really address the roots of suffering, what the causes
of their suffering are, how to pivot and what is
(10:46):
the path? And so it's based on the fore noble
truths of the Buddha and really looking at which is
such a rare thing, is looking at our intra personal lives,
like how are we inside of ourselves and our inner
personal like how are our relationships going, like what are
we actually doing when we get home? And then you
(11:09):
know a third of it is also clinical work. But really,
in some ways I feel like the call of this
time has been part of the call of the medicine
of this time, is to remember we only have one life.
You know, there's so much focus on work life balance,
and but really we have one life, and how are
we in that life. We want to come back just
(11:30):
for a moment to the importance of noticing the key
give us in the home. It's something like seventy percent
of key give us in the home of family members.
And we have a support group four keg givers. We
meet once every two weeks. And one of the key
give us a couple of a couple of months ago,
(11:51):
said something so profound. Both her parents have Alzheimer's and
the daughter she does the errand she makes the food,
She go the a T M machine, but she does
everything that you need that the parents are asking of her.
And one afternoon she just turned around, she said, I
am not your robot mom. Can you imagine that what
(12:13):
she had to go through it to get to that
point where she said, I am not your robot mom.
I need to take care of myself. I mean that
it's so for me that it is so heartbreak to
be diminished in such a way by her own parents,
and to think about the suffering of the parents too
with the Alzheimer's. You know that that obviously they were
(12:35):
loving parents at one point, because she's taking care of them.
But that kind of shift in relationships is so important, Coach,
she was speaking of the relationships from these doctors that
come into the profession hearts open, wanting to serve, wanting
to do the best that they can, and slowly turn
into these not all but of course slowly turned into
(12:58):
these workhorses that go home and their relationships for their
family changed. For a clod. We're in the middle of
a huge crisis. It reminds me of just that that
reductive binary that we applied to all aspects of being human. Right,
that if you are called to be of service, you
must be at service to your own detriment forever and
(13:19):
ever our men right, And that there is no time
culturally speaking, socially speaking, or in the workplace, there's no
time for you to say I need a break, I
need to stop. We don't support that. Instead, we come
in and we say like, well, you got into this
for a reason, and you need to draw on your
passion for this so that you can stay resilient. Or
(13:39):
in terms of a caregiver and the home a family member,
it's like drawing the love that you had for them
and give back and give back. So this is all
something that that is a really big topic. We're going
to go to a quick break and we're going to
come back and I bet we're going to talk more
about it. Welcome back everybody. That reductive binary of humanness,
(14:06):
right that you are supposed to give and give and
give and give and give and give and give and
say thank you for being depleted like that, that really
messes up so many things. I think that's one of
the reasons why we've been really thinking about language. And
you know, we have a habit of talking about caregivers, right,
so it makes this one person just giving, giving, giving, giving, giving,
(14:32):
It's kind of almost like a Michie. And so we've
been really reflecting on language and really moving from caregiver
to care partner because I feel like in many ways
that that is actually moving to centering generosity, which for
us is a different way of thinking about care. If
(14:54):
we think about generosity, which is giving and receiving equally,
so we're actually nourishing ourselves. And if we're not actually
including ourselves in the circle of care, then what kind
of care are we offer. We're the agent, we're the
one so coming to the bedside or the zoom side,
(15:17):
whatever it is, to show up. If we're not nourishing ourselves,
we're just bringing that depletion to the relationship. Yeah, I
mean again with this keg, the keg of the support
groups that we have. They come in for the you know,
it's an hour and a half of being together and
you'll have a group and say, eight people with one commonality.
(15:41):
I'm exhausted. I don't know how much longer I can
do this. Even often is voiced, I love my mom,
I love my dad, but it's time. It's been sick
for so long. And I hate to say this, but
if they died, it would be a huge relief for
me and my family, and I love them so much.
(16:03):
But this is unbearable. And within seven and I'm exhausted,
and they'll be and you know, without a blink, the
rest of the group we're saying, yeah, I understand the relief,
the relief. So this is you know, this is also
a huge, huge question that we have. What are we
(16:25):
doing to take care the care partners? And you know,
very little, yeah, very little, we share that same approach.
We're telling the truth about it is the most powerful
act we have currently available, right because we're so often
rushing people out of their exhaustion or speaking their tiredness
(16:48):
or their irritation, right, reminding people to be resilient, all
of these things that we do. And so even just
that ability or the welcoming of the truth in that
situation does something I also so I wonder about. You know,
we're speaking about family caregivers. This same sort of deficit
of generosity shows up in all of the caregiving professions.
(17:09):
So how do we start talking to you know, the
social worker at the hospital or the internist who just
they can't take a moment to be generous with themselves,
They can't ask their colleagues to be generous with them
and take care of each other, because we're all working
from such such a deep deficit that like, there is
effort involved in caring for yourself. And I can hear
(17:30):
the frustration and so many people I speak with and
here from I don't have the energy to figure out
what I need to do to take care of myself.
And this is yet another another one of those unsolvable challenges.
Here what do we do there? I don't know they're
quite buy into that we teach doctor isn't a care?
(17:50):
You know what, they'll come because they'll come. In that statement,
I don't have time and a time to rushly, you know,
I to see you know, fifteen patients in and now
whatever we say, actually, you know what it takes one minute?
Stand still, where are your feet there on the floor,
ground yourself, take a breath. I am here in this moment,
(18:14):
in this moment, I'm giving myself permission to stop. And
it can take one minute. We stay three minutes, it
is preferable, but one minute will do it before I
go to the next patient or to the next encounter.
It's just and then moving on that good mount up
to say, I don't know, it's thirty minutes a day.
(18:35):
So for thirty minutes of your day, you've stopped, You've
noticed what's happening in your body, you've noticed what's happening
to your breath, and you've come back to center. So
People often think that you have to meditate, it's gonna
be thirty minutes and I don't have time. Well they
don't for the most part. One minute everyone has. I
(18:56):
love that, thank you. That's something that I try to
act us and even I forget that. We get into
that cycle of depletion and think, oh crap, right, like, oh,
this means that I need to make myself healthy food,
which means I need to find time to go to
the grocery store and make sure that I get this
and this, and then I have to come home and
then the dog needs this. That sort of rapid cycling
(19:17):
of the mind that says I can't, I can't, I can't,
I can't, And it really is that brief one minute
of connection. One of the things when I when I
speak at hospitals back when we used to do things
in person, When I speak at hospitals and very often
speaking to nurses who see a lot of death and
suffering and they don't have time to, you know, have
(19:38):
a decompression session with their colleagues to talk about how
hard it was to watch that kid die. What can
we do, Like, what's the medicine that we need in there?
It's that moment of grounding and centering you spoke about,
and a moment of connection, whether that's with our own
selves or with the people around us. And that's like,
you know, I can't do it now because I'm nobody
(19:58):
will see me on air. But the thing that I
often encourage people in those fast paced environments to do
is put one hand on their heart and make eye
contact with somebody split second. There is something so medicinal
in that communal acknowledgement of the moment, even if that's
all you have time for. Just as important is to
(20:20):
remember that this moment of stopping and grounding one song
doesn't have to be limited to the our work hours.
We can do this on our day off, we can
do this on a weekend, if anyone has a weekend.
But to be able to just in the midst of enjoyment,
in the midst of shopping with our favorite things, looking
at the tomatoes, whatever it is, to be able to
(20:40):
go and that trains us, trains the mind to come
to stands to stop. So I wouldn't just concentrate totally
on the work environment, also in the whole environment, hiking,
whatever it is, just take a moment here and It's
like a moment of sabbath, you know, of actually taking
(21:01):
a moment to be at one with where you are.
And many of us think, you know that that whole
thing about self care and self care of this and
get manicure, watch Netflix or whatever that is, and all
those things could be fun. But I think that how
do we make time to not do even if it's
(21:22):
that moment that we're talking about, you know? And I
was thinking about nurses too and how to Tota and
I were on impatient oncology, you know, which you know,
mostly is the people are many of them will die.
And when they died, you know, there was just this
accumulative trauma on the staff because people love these people,
(21:45):
and people said, we don't have time to do one
more I we don't have time to do anything, and
we realize, like what we do, Actually we have three minutes.
We can get in a circle and say this person
has died. What did you miss about them? What did
you love about them? And everyone world, Yeah, everyone can
(22:05):
say one thing, and it was so healing. We often
are investing in habits that are depleting more than were
investing in habits that actually are nourishing. So to me,
it's also about how do we just get conscious? And
(22:25):
that's one of the things that I'm just loving about
our fellows is that they're learning about how to undo
and to remember what they care about most. And then
that's one thing is awareness, but then the crucial thing
is learning how to put it into action. So seeing
(22:47):
them really changing, like learning to look at their partner
in the eyes, learning to look at their children, learning
to look at themselves in the mirror, like who's there,
you know, And it's so beautiful to see them actually changing.
And but I think that change only happens when we
(23:08):
crossed the threshold of awareness. We all kind of know
what's off. But it's amazing to see when people say,
I know it's off, and I'm going to practice and
not be good at making a new groove. So excited.
I love that those those creating habits that actually feed you.
(23:30):
I think divorcing that like I I hear the things
that you're suggesting in the things that you're saying, and
I can hear people sort of saying, but that's not
going to fix anything. What like sort of that collapsed
despair and despondency, like what is this one overly simple
tool going to do about the reality of this life
(23:52):
and the death and the suffering and the constant fatigue
in the exhaustion. And it's sort of that, you know,
Davy and Goliath moment, what do I have of? And
I love how you framed that as like, try it
and see, try it and see. This is an experiment.
It's going to wake you up to the reality of
your life and the reality of suffering around you, and
(24:15):
the reality of the suffering of the world. And it
may spark some moment of what can I do? What
can I do when I take the attention totally away
from myself? What can I do to change the situation?
The austen How do I advocate for myself? How do
(24:35):
I advocate for the for the staff? Do I advocate
sometimes for the patient? So it's not so self centric
that one minute may evoke a moment of clarity and
it may be you know what, I don't need this bullshit.
I'm out of here. I need to take care of myself.
(24:58):
I'm done with this ship. Don't end up being over
tired and being doubly being under paid. I'm done with
being treated like a robot. To use that way again,
or maybe you know what. I love my job. I
love this job. I just need to focus on that minute,
that moment of clarity when I realized I've exhausted it. Yeah,
(25:21):
I'm so exhausted. How can I get help my husband,
from my wife, from my from my kids, just one thing?
So I don't buy that the one minute stopping well
not well, it's not about fixing anything. It's about being aware.
So much in this world we cannot fix, but we
(25:43):
can be aware of it. And what do we do
with that awareness? Exactly? We can change the world. And
that that complaint, Oh that's not gonna work. Oh that's
you know, like it's so popular, right, and now we
hear that I try that, I've tried that, I tried.
I tried it once. You know. It just reminds me
(26:04):
of this story where this guy goes up to this
meditation teacher, Jack Cornfield and the airport. He's like, if
you're Jack Gornfield and they're in the Miami Airport and
he's like, I happened to be and he said, you know,
I went to something about meditation with you, like thirty
years ago. And he's like, oh, how was that? And
He's like, it was horrible, didn't work. He's like, but
(26:27):
the funniest thing. I was on the gurney going in
for open heart surgery, and suddenly that was the only
thing that made sense. And I'm so grateful, like I
was able to come back to myself. So I think
that there's something so amazing about our lack of receptivity
(26:48):
to change. We resist change, we resist death, we resist
actually reality of how things are changing and how do
we just in some way, it's like, have a bit
of playfulness around that voice of like it's not gonna work.
It's like, I hear you grumpy, you know, I hear you,
(27:09):
jaded part I hear you, I see you, I love you,
and step out aside a little time sharing the psyche. Yeah,
it's such a popular voice, you know, that kind of
dissenting of change because we're so in some ways addicted
(27:29):
to our suffering. In some ways, that's a voice of
depletion that I have nothing in me to try these things,
these things can't possibly work. That is seeing that voice
as a voice of depletion. H We've been talking so
much about caregivers and showing up in the moments and
the power of that telling the truth to yourself and
(27:51):
telling the truth to others. So, as educators and as practitioners,
if you had sort of, okay, one succinct, sort of
pithy message that you wanted to give to other educators
and other practitioners, what do you think? What do you
wish other educators and practitioners would know, either about grief
(28:12):
or exhaustion or telling the truth. What do you wish
they would know? You can't put it all in one bucket.
There's no succinct answer. There's no same answer for each person.
Grief is unique to each of us. We all do
it differently. We're all grieving differently for different things. Oftentimes,
you know, people are thinking they've lost a partner or child,
(28:34):
or we could be grieving for the loss of a dog,
the loss of any pet, for the loss of any animal.
Grieving can be the loss of the job, you know,
the loss of a home. So we can't always assume
that there's like one pet answer, one pat recommendation to
deal with grief. So, for me, the pithy, if you
(28:55):
like to use that word, is take a look. What
is it really about remembering the moment or a period
of grief can touching to so many other grief experiences.
You know, It's like it's the domino effect, just like
the my cat died and I'm direct on beyond beyond
(29:16):
sadness and has realized, why am I thinking about my mom?
Why am I thinking about X, Y and Z? Why
am I thinking about that person? I haven't processed my
grief from twenty years ago. So how do I say
to someone you know, recognize the grief of what it
is in this moment, and recognize the grief of what
(29:36):
else it could be. It's not always want, it's not
always so you have to not get stuck in some idea.
I agree. I think that makes sense for grief in
our own lives and also as educators and those who
show up to serve people who are in really difficult
times of their lives, is to wander into it and
(29:58):
be curious, rather than thinking we know all of the
answers or that there are any answer. So I think
that's a really beautiful place for us to sort of
come full circle with the beginning of our conversation into
this conversation about curiosity and experimentation with what it means
to be fully human and fully here, even in the
moments when you don't feel like you can be fully here. Friends,
(30:20):
thank you so much for being here. I'm going to
link to all of the places that people can find you,
and the fellowship and all of those things, but tell
our listeners right now where they can find you individually
and collectively and anything else you need them to know
before we get into our questions to carry with you
after the break. So the New York and Center for
Contemplative Carry Confine us at zencre dot org and at
(30:43):
New York Zen Center at New York's and Center for
Instagram and Coach and Paley Ellison at Coach and Really
Elson for Instagram and Toto Campbell Zerology than or applications
for the Fellowship open soon. For the Contemplative Medicine Fellowship
(31:06):
are currently open is open enrollment, and so we're already
filling up for the next cohort. And we have a
podcast it's called end Care and you can find an
Apple podcasts oh and our books Awake Up, the Bedside,
Contemplative Teachings and Patative and End of Life Care and
(31:27):
my book co Hearted, Slowed Down, Help Out, Wake Up.
Both of those books can be found anywhere that books
are sold excellent. Each week I leave you with questions
to carry with you until we meet again. It's part
(31:48):
of that whole. This awkward stuff gets easier with practice. Thing.
But this week we are not wasting an opportunity to
hear from our guests with their questions to carry with you.
So one of the things that I invite you to
do this week is to reflect on what else is true?
And so when you find yourself caught in some thought
(32:11):
about a sadness or an anger or grief, just to
invite the question what else is true? For me? This
is a way to learn how to widen out, not
to bypass anything, not to deny anything, but to actually
allow ourselves to ground ourselves right where we are. I
(32:34):
remember walking down the street the other day, just feeling
so sorrowful and looking up in the sky into seeing
the birds flying above and the branches, the bare branches
framing the sky, like that was also true, So that
finding how do you drop down and widen out and
(32:56):
find what else is true? Is it really overused sentence
or cliche? Wake up and smell the coffee. I like
to ask you to wake up and smell and notice
and see whatever is in front of you. You're walking
down the street, a lady or gentleman with a stroller
(33:19):
and baby walking towards you. Notice that moment of look
at that beautiful baby, or that that baby doesn't stop crying.
Why isn't the parents taking care of it? Just notice?
Noticed dogsh it on the sidewalk. Notice the beauty of
the buzz are beginning to appear now in the spring
(33:39):
or whatever the time of year is. But to really
notice what is in front of you from your home,
on the way to work. What is it like to
step onto the bus, the transition from the sidewalk to
the bus. The people on the bus who are today
notice them. Don't get stuck in your iPhone. You have
(34:00):
a pose whatever it is. Be fully awake to your life,
to each moment of your life, because it's short. In
my meditations, I say, each in breath is bringing life
into the body, and each outbreath is a small day.
The last thing we do, it's die on the ExHAM
(34:21):
when we done. The last thing we do is ExHAM ah.
So on each breath. Where is you are in your
life right now? I want to know how to send
your questions into me to maybe answer in the future show.
(34:42):
This show is nothing without your questions. It is literally
a Q and a show. I use your questions to
talk about the wider world. So if you have a question,
I guarantee that at least a thousand other people have
the same question. There's no empirical evidence for that number,
so don't quote me. But I'm sure whatever you're wrestling with,
other people are wrestling with it too. So bring me
(35:04):
your questions, your clinical questions, your frustrations about caregiving or life,
anything that you're really wrestling with, and you could use
a script for let's talk it out. Call us at
three to three six four three three seven six eight
and leave a voicemail. If you missed it, you can
find that number in the show notes or visit us
at Megan Divine dot c O. If you'd rather send
(35:26):
an email, you can do that right on the website
Megan Divine dot c O. We want to hear from you.
This show, this world needs your questions. Together, we can
make things better even when we can't make them right.
You know how most people are gonna scam through their
podcast app looking for a new thing. They're going to
(35:47):
see the show description for Hereafter and think I don't
want to talk about that stuff. Well, here's where you
come in your reviews. Let people know it really isn't
all that bad. In here we talk about heavy stuff,
but it's in the service of making things better or
for everyone, So everyone needs to listen. Spread the word
in your workplace, in your social world on social media
and click through to leave a review. Subscribe to the show,
(36:10):
download episodes, and send in your questions. Want more Here After?
Grief education doesn't just belong to end of life issues.
Life is full of losses, from everyday disappointments to events
that clearly divide life into before and after. Learning how
to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or
(36:31):
simplistic think positive posters is an important skill for everyone.
Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every human trying
to make their way in the world after something goes
horribly wrong at Megan Divine dot c O. Hereafter with
Megan Divine is written and produced by me Megan Divine.
Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by Kimberly Cowen,
(36:55):
Tanya Jujas, and Elizabeth Fosio. Edited by Houston Tilly and
st video support by Chris Uren. Music provided by Wave
Crush h
This is Here After and I'm your host, Megan Divine.
This week's show is a repeat performance. We'll be back
with season two soon enough, but for right now, enjoy
this episode and visit the back catalog of episodes two
while you're at it. This is Here After and I'm
your host, Megan Divine. Each week we tackle big questions
from therapists, caregivers, and other helpful folks that let us
(00:22):
explore how to show up after life goes horribly wrong.
This week showing up to the full catastrophe of caregiving
personally and professionally with incredibly special guests Cotion, Paileey Ellison,
and Robert Chodo Campbell, founders of the New York Zen
Center for Contemplative Care. Don't miss this one, friends, We'll
(00:43):
be right back after this first break. Before we get started,
one quick note, well, I hope you find a lot
of useful information in our time here together. This show
is not a substitute for skilled support with a license
mental health provider or for professional supervision related to your work.
(01:04):
Hey friends, I'm going to keep my intro here brief today,
at least brief from me, because I want to use
all the time we possibly have available for you to
hear from both of our guests on the show today.
Two people I love and admire and respect so much
Coach and Paley Ellison and Choto. Robert Campbell Coach and
Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, young and psychotherapist,
(01:27):
and certified chaplaincy educator. He and Robert Schoto Campbell co
founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, which
offers contemplative approaches to care through education, personal caregiving, and
Zen practice. Through the Center, they provide a lot of
resources and education, but I know them best to their
Contemplative Medicine Fellowship, a year long training for physicians, nurse practitioners,
(01:48):
and physician assistants who want to lead a change in
the culture of care. You can probably tell that I
am reading that directly off of their website because I
want to make sure I describe it correctly. But there
are two of the kindest, most ful people I have
ever met, and I know a lot of people. But
enough about me. Let's get to our guests. Coach and Choto,
thank you so much for being here. It's a delight
(02:10):
to be here. It's such a delight to be here,
especially For me, I get to sit next to my
husband of twenty years. I get to be in front
of all your beautiful faces. Can believe, Tanya and Megan.
It's just a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful way to begin my day.
I cheat. The afternoon time is elastic. I'm already getting
(02:34):
that faces choto. What are you talking about? This is
supposed to be a brief intro and he's doing that
thing where he just you know, you roll your your
hands over the off screen, off screen, you roller hands
off screen. You can have a little unbelievable what's your
intro moment? God, I'm so glad to have you so coaching.
(02:59):
The last time that you and I were in a
gathering together, it was probably we've probably done it since,
but it was like April, sort of height of the
early pandemic in New York City, and I remember it
was an online event, obviously pandemic, and you were in
the middle of speaking, and suddenly the sirens behind you
sort of drowned out your voice, and you just stopped
(03:21):
and closed your eyes, and you said so sweetly to
the audience, every siren is a chance to practice. And
you took a beat, and then you just rolled along
with whatever you had been saying about being present at
the bedside of the suffering or the dying or those
facing difficult medical stories. It was such a beautiful moment,
(03:42):
and I actually told our producers here that when I
said that, I was probably gonna cry, because I do
cry every single episode because I'm a human with feelings.
But that moment, for me really encapsulates what the two
of you do. Right, just when humanity intersects with the
moment that we're in, that's really where the two of
you shine. I don't really have a question there, but like,
(04:04):
that's what I feel about you too. One of the
other things that comes to mind when we hear the
sirens on twenty third Street is we often will say
to students or members in the zendom at that time,
you know, let's all just hope that whoever is in
an ambulance gets the hospital in time. Let's hope that
(04:26):
the technicians in the ambulance can do everything they can
to save this life. And when the fire engines go by,
it's the same thing. It's hope to get there on
time to save members. In total. Yeah, it's just that
that moment of connection, right, I think I picked up
from you saying that in caution that one of Simon
goes by, I just like close my eyes for a
(04:47):
second and say good luck for everyone, right, the person
in the vehicle, the family and friends that surround that,
the people who are driving that vehicle, and the people
at the medical facilities who will receive them, right, all
of those concentric rings in that moment. I think that
what's so striking is that our life is filled with
(05:09):
what are sometimes called interruptions and annoyances or you know,
the fly and ointment or whatever it is. And whether
it's a siren or you know, someone not responding to
you in the way that you wished it was, or
get it receiving a diagnosis that you wish you didn't receive,
(05:31):
or someone has died that you wish didn't die. To me,
the opportunity is always saying, well, this is what's happening,
and how do I actually receive it and welcome what's here,
whether it's a siren or a wail from our own chest,
because we're just missing and yearning for someone who has died,
(05:56):
you know, thinking about you know a friend of ours, Stanley,
and and he was in the grocery store aisle and
picking up a tomato, and he burst into tears because
the smell of the tomato reminded him of his wife
who had died twenty years before. And there's no interruption,
and after he wept, he just said, look at this tomato.
(06:19):
I love what you said about concentric circles, because when
we were with someone who is dying or someone who
is suffering in the hospital, we often think that all
the attention and usually ninety percent of the attention should
be focused on the patient of the person in the hospital,
but we forget the speaking of concentric circles, we forget
(06:43):
about the care givers. We forget about the nurses, aids,
the home held days, the doctors, the janitor that brings,
you know, the cleans the room, the person that brings
the food to the room, as well as all the
family members. Of course, we tend to forget all the
people involved in one patient's care. So I love that
(07:03):
idea in the illustration that you're bringing up concentric circles,
and it just continue to ripple out. And if you consider,
for instance, the home health date or the nurse's assistant
in a nursing home who has maybe two three hours
of travel to get to where they need to go.
How does that affect ripple out into the family when
(07:26):
usually as a female, when she gets home after taking
four bus rides or two bus rides or a subway
in a bus ride, and she's exhausted, and she has
to make dinner and she has to take care of
the kids. So it's not just about the one person
and one identified patients, shall we say? So that concentric
circle is really important to keep in mind. That's what's occurring.
(07:50):
And it brings up from me this idea that invisible
and not invisible web of helpers that we just expect
them to keep helping, right, We just expect them to
sort of be machinery of help, right, or or helpful
machines and just keep going. And I love what you
said there. Total like often women in these positions and
they come home and they have to serve more and
(08:12):
they have to keep going. And certainly, now like none
of this stuff with the pressure on the health care professions,
none of the stuff is new. But seeing all of
this trauma and stress and death and loss and suffering
on top of old systemic fractures like this is really
what I wanted to have you here with us today
(08:32):
to talk about, Like I think in my in my
notes too, I was like, I feel like we need
to have a conversation inside the apocalypse for those networks
of helpers, the therapists and the home health aids and
the people who serve the food and work in the kitchens,
and the doctors and the social workers, and what we
keep asking them to bear and how do we even
(08:54):
talk about not being able to bear that anymore? And honestly,
you know, normally, when I have a guest on the show,
I sort through the listener questions and I find things
that intersect with the guests so that we can open
up those conversations. And this time, as I was preparing,
I just found myself saying, like, I don't know what
to say about this stuff. I don't know what to
say about the compounded weight on the I don't know communities, legions,
(09:18):
legions maybe of people we lean on for help, And
where are they supposed to lean for help when we
keep looking for them to show up and serve and
show up and serve and show up and serve and
not stop. This is something that we hold so dear
to our hearts, you know, and I think that one
of the things that we've been concerned about these folks
(09:41):
for a long time, you know, Chatter and I have
been teaching in particular physicians for fifteen years and working
with them and really figuring out how what's useful, how
do we learn how to drop into ourselves and in
particular physicians ahead of the highest rates of suicide, divorce,
(10:03):
drug and alcohol abuse as well as one of the
unique things is that as the most people leave that
profession of being of doctoring. So we've been deeply concerned
and then when the pandemic hit, we realized that we
needed to do something that we needed to meet that need,
(10:25):
and so we created this Fellowship in Contemplative Medicine, this
year long fellowship for physicians, nurse practitioners and physician assistance
to really address the roots of suffering, what the causes
of their suffering are, how to pivot and what is
(10:46):
the path? And so it's based on the fore noble
truths of the Buddha and really looking at which is
such a rare thing, is looking at our intra personal lives,
like how are we inside of ourselves and our inner
personal like how are our relationships going, like what are
we actually doing when we get home? And then you
(11:09):
know a third of it is also clinical work. But really,
in some ways I feel like the call of this
time has been part of the call of the medicine
of this time, is to remember we only have one life.
You know, there's so much focus on work life balance,
and but really we have one life, and how are
we in that life. We want to come back just
(11:30):
for a moment to the importance of noticing the key
give us in the home. It's something like seventy percent
of key give us in the home of family members.
And we have a support group four keg givers. We
meet once every two weeks. And one of the key
give us a couple of a couple of months ago,
(11:51):
said something so profound. Both her parents have Alzheimer's and
the daughter she does the errand she makes the food,
She go the a T M machine, but she does
everything that you need that the parents are asking of her.
And one afternoon she just turned around, she said, I
am not your robot mom. Can you imagine that what
(12:13):
she had to go through it to get to that
point where she said, I am not your robot mom.
I need to take care of myself. I mean that
it's so for me that it is so heartbreak to
be diminished in such a way by her own parents,
and to think about the suffering of the parents too
with the Alzheimer's. You know that that obviously they were
(12:35):
loving parents at one point, because she's taking care of them.
But that kind of shift in relationships is so important, Coach,
she was speaking of the relationships from these doctors that
come into the profession hearts open, wanting to serve, wanting
to do the best that they can, and slowly turn
into these not all but of course slowly turned into
(12:58):
these workhorses that go home and their relationships for their
family changed. For a clod. We're in the middle of
a huge crisis. It reminds me of just that that
reductive binary that we applied to all aspects of being human. Right,
that if you are called to be of service, you
must be at service to your own detriment forever and
(13:19):
ever our men right, And that there is no time
culturally speaking, socially speaking, or in the workplace, there's no
time for you to say I need a break, I
need to stop. We don't support that. Instead, we come
in and we say like, well, you got into this
for a reason, and you need to draw on your
passion for this so that you can stay resilient. Or
(13:39):
in terms of a caregiver and the home a family member,
it's like drawing the love that you had for them
and give back and give back. So this is all
something that that is a really big topic. We're going
to go to a quick break and we're going to
come back and I bet we're going to talk more
about it. Welcome back everybody. That reductive binary of humanness,
(14:06):
right that you are supposed to give and give and
give and give and give and give and give and
say thank you for being depleted like that, that really
messes up so many things. I think that's one of
the reasons why we've been really thinking about language. And
you know, we have a habit of talking about caregivers, right,
so it makes this one person just giving, giving, giving, giving, giving,
(14:32):
It's kind of almost like a Michie. And so we've
been really reflecting on language and really moving from caregiver
to care partner because I feel like in many ways
that that is actually moving to centering generosity, which for
us is a different way of thinking about care. If
(14:54):
we think about generosity, which is giving and receiving equally,
so we're actually nourishing ourselves. And if we're not actually
including ourselves in the circle of care, then what kind
of care are we offer. We're the agent, we're the
one so coming to the bedside or the zoom side,
(15:17):
whatever it is, to show up. If we're not nourishing ourselves,
we're just bringing that depletion to the relationship. Yeah, I
mean again with this keg, the keg of the support
groups that we have. They come in for the you know,
it's an hour and a half of being together and
you'll have a group and say, eight people with one commonality.
(15:41):
I'm exhausted. I don't know how much longer I can
do this. Even often is voiced, I love my mom,
I love my dad, but it's time. It's been sick
for so long. And I hate to say this, but
if they died, it would be a huge relief for
me and my family, and I love them so much.
(16:03):
But this is unbearable. And within seven and I'm exhausted,
and they'll be and you know, without a blink, the
rest of the group we're saying, yeah, I understand the relief,
the relief. So this is you know, this is also
a huge, huge question that we have. What are we
(16:25):
doing to take care the care partners? And you know,
very little, yeah, very little, we share that same approach.
We're telling the truth about it is the most powerful
act we have currently available, right because we're so often
rushing people out of their exhaustion or speaking their tiredness
(16:48):
or their irritation, right, reminding people to be resilient, all
of these things that we do. And so even just
that ability or the welcoming of the truth in that
situation does something I also so I wonder about. You know,
we're speaking about family caregivers. This same sort of deficit
of generosity shows up in all of the caregiving professions.
(17:09):
So how do we start talking to you know, the
social worker at the hospital or the internist who just
they can't take a moment to be generous with themselves,
They can't ask their colleagues to be generous with them
and take care of each other, because we're all working
from such such a deep deficit that like, there is
effort involved in caring for yourself. And I can hear
(17:30):
the frustration and so many people I speak with and
here from I don't have the energy to figure out
what I need to do to take care of myself.
And this is yet another another one of those unsolvable challenges.
Here what do we do there? I don't know they're
quite buy into that we teach doctor isn't a care?
(17:50):
You know what, they'll come because they'll come. In that statement,
I don't have time and a time to rushly, you know,
I to see you know, fifteen patients in and now
whatever we say, actually, you know what it takes one minute?
Stand still, where are your feet there on the floor,
ground yourself, take a breath. I am here in this moment,
(18:14):
in this moment, I'm giving myself permission to stop. And
it can take one minute. We stay three minutes, it
is preferable, but one minute will do it before I
go to the next patient or to the next encounter.
It's just and then moving on that good mount up
to say, I don't know, it's thirty minutes a day.
(18:35):
So for thirty minutes of your day, you've stopped, You've
noticed what's happening in your body, you've noticed what's happening
to your breath, and you've come back to center. So
People often think that you have to meditate, it's gonna
be thirty minutes and I don't have time. Well they
don't for the most part. One minute everyone has. I
(18:56):
love that, thank you. That's something that I try to
act us and even I forget that. We get into
that cycle of depletion and think, oh crap, right, like, oh,
this means that I need to make myself healthy food,
which means I need to find time to go to
the grocery store and make sure that I get this
and this, and then I have to come home and
then the dog needs this. That sort of rapid cycling
(19:17):
of the mind that says I can't, I can't, I can't,
I can't, And it really is that brief one minute
of connection. One of the things when I when I
speak at hospitals back when we used to do things
in person, When I speak at hospitals and very often
speaking to nurses who see a lot of death and
suffering and they don't have time to, you know, have
(19:38):
a decompression session with their colleagues to talk about how
hard it was to watch that kid die. What can
we do, Like, what's the medicine that we need in there?
It's that moment of grounding and centering you spoke about,
and a moment of connection, whether that's with our own
selves or with the people around us. And that's like,
you know, I can't do it now because I'm nobody
(19:58):
will see me on air. But the thing that I
often encourage people in those fast paced environments to do
is put one hand on their heart and make eye
contact with somebody split second. There is something so medicinal
in that communal acknowledgement of the moment, even if that's
all you have time for. Just as important is to
(20:20):
remember that this moment of stopping and grounding one song
doesn't have to be limited to the our work hours.
We can do this on our day off, we can
do this on a weekend, if anyone has a weekend.
But to be able to just in the midst of enjoyment,
in the midst of shopping with our favorite things, looking
at the tomatoes, whatever it is, to be able to
(20:40):
go and that trains us, trains the mind to come
to stands to stop. So I wouldn't just concentrate totally
on the work environment, also in the whole environment, hiking,
whatever it is, just take a moment here and It's
like a moment of sabbath, you know, of actually taking
(21:01):
a moment to be at one with where you are.
And many of us think, you know that that whole
thing about self care and self care of this and
get manicure, watch Netflix or whatever that is, and all
those things could be fun. But I think that how
do we make time to not do even if it's
(21:22):
that moment that we're talking about, you know? And I
was thinking about nurses too and how to Tota and
I were on impatient oncology, you know, which you know,
mostly is the people are many of them will die.
And when they died, you know, there was just this
accumulative trauma on the staff because people love these people,
(21:45):
and people said, we don't have time to do one
more I we don't have time to do anything, and
we realize, like what we do, Actually we have three minutes.
We can get in a circle and say this person
has died. What did you miss about them? What did
you love about them? And everyone world, Yeah, everyone can
(22:05):
say one thing, and it was so healing. We often
are investing in habits that are depleting more than were
investing in habits that actually are nourishing. So to me,
it's also about how do we just get conscious? And
(22:25):
that's one of the things that I'm just loving about
our fellows is that they're learning about how to undo
and to remember what they care about most. And then
that's one thing is awareness, but then the crucial thing
is learning how to put it into action. So seeing
(22:47):
them really changing, like learning to look at their partner
in the eyes, learning to look at their children, learning
to look at themselves in the mirror, like who's there,
you know, And it's so beautiful to see them actually changing.
And but I think that change only happens when we
(23:08):
crossed the threshold of awareness. We all kind of know
what's off. But it's amazing to see when people say,
I know it's off, and I'm going to practice and
not be good at making a new groove. So excited.
I love that those those creating habits that actually feed you.
(23:30):
I think divorcing that like I I hear the things
that you're suggesting in the things that you're saying, and
I can hear people sort of saying, but that's not
going to fix anything. What like sort of that collapsed
despair and despondency, like what is this one overly simple
tool going to do about the reality of this life
(23:52):
and the death and the suffering and the constant fatigue
in the exhaustion. And it's sort of that, you know,
Davy and Goliath moment, what do I have of? And
I love how you framed that as like, try it
and see, try it and see. This is an experiment.
It's going to wake you up to the reality of
your life and the reality of suffering around you, and
(24:15):
the reality of the suffering of the world. And it
may spark some moment of what can I do? What
can I do when I take the attention totally away
from myself? What can I do to change the situation?
The austen How do I advocate for myself? How do
(24:35):
I advocate for the for the staff? Do I advocate
sometimes for the patient? So it's not so self centric
that one minute may evoke a moment of clarity and
it may be you know what, I don't need this bullshit.
I'm out of here. I need to take care of myself.
(24:58):
I'm done with this ship. Don't end up being over
tired and being doubly being under paid. I'm done with
being treated like a robot. To use that way again,
or maybe you know what. I love my job. I
love this job. I just need to focus on that minute,
that moment of clarity when I realized I've exhausted it. Yeah,
(25:21):
I'm so exhausted. How can I get help my husband,
from my wife, from my from my kids, just one thing?
So I don't buy that the one minute stopping well
not well, it's not about fixing anything. It's about being aware.
So much in this world we cannot fix, but we
(25:43):
can be aware of it. And what do we do
with that awareness? Exactly? We can change the world. And
that that complaint, Oh that's not gonna work. Oh that's
you know, like it's so popular, right, and now we
hear that I try that, I've tried that, I tried.
I tried it once. You know. It just reminds me
(26:04):
of this story where this guy goes up to this
meditation teacher, Jack Cornfield and the airport. He's like, if
you're Jack Gornfield and they're in the Miami Airport and
he's like, I happened to be and he said, you know,
I went to something about meditation with you, like thirty
years ago. And he's like, oh, how was that? And
He's like, it was horrible, didn't work. He's like, but
(26:27):
the funniest thing. I was on the gurney going in
for open heart surgery, and suddenly that was the only
thing that made sense. And I'm so grateful, like I
was able to come back to myself. So I think
that there's something so amazing about our lack of receptivity
(26:48):
to change. We resist change, we resist death, we resist
actually reality of how things are changing and how do
we just in some way, it's like, have a bit
of playfulness around that voice of like it's not gonna work.
It's like, I hear you grumpy, you know, I hear you,
(27:09):
jaded part I hear you, I see you, I love you,
and step out aside a little time sharing the psyche. Yeah,
it's such a popular voice, you know, that kind of
dissenting of change because we're so in some ways addicted
(27:29):
to our suffering. In some ways, that's a voice of
depletion that I have nothing in me to try these things,
these things can't possibly work. That is seeing that voice
as a voice of depletion. H We've been talking so
much about caregivers and showing up in the moments and
the power of that telling the truth to yourself and
(27:51):
telling the truth to others. So, as educators and as practitioners,
if you had sort of, okay, one succinct, sort of
pithy message that you wanted to give to other educators
and other practitioners, what do you think? What do you
wish other educators and practitioners would know, either about grief
(28:12):
or exhaustion or telling the truth. What do you wish
they would know? You can't put it all in one bucket.
There's no succinct answer. There's no same answer for each person.
Grief is unique to each of us. We all do
it differently. We're all grieving differently for different things. Oftentimes,
you know, people are thinking they've lost a partner or child,
(28:34):
or we could be grieving for the loss of a dog,
the loss of any pet, for the loss of any animal.
Grieving can be the loss of the job, you know,
the loss of a home. So we can't always assume
that there's like one pet answer, one pat recommendation to
deal with grief. So, for me, the pithy, if you
(28:55):
like to use that word, is take a look. What
is it really about remembering the moment or a period
of grief can touching to so many other grief experiences.
You know, It's like it's the domino effect, just like
the my cat died and I'm direct on beyond beyond
(29:16):
sadness and has realized, why am I thinking about my mom?
Why am I thinking about X, Y and Z? Why
am I thinking about that person? I haven't processed my
grief from twenty years ago. So how do I say
to someone you know, recognize the grief of what it
is in this moment, and recognize the grief of what
(29:36):
else it could be. It's not always want, it's not
always so you have to not get stuck in some idea.
I agree. I think that makes sense for grief in
our own lives and also as educators and those who
show up to serve people who are in really difficult
times of their lives, is to wander into it and
(29:58):
be curious, rather than thinking we know all of the
answers or that there are any answer. So I think
that's a really beautiful place for us to sort of
come full circle with the beginning of our conversation into
this conversation about curiosity and experimentation with what it means
to be fully human and fully here, even in the
moments when you don't feel like you can be fully here. Friends,
(30:20):
thank you so much for being here. I'm going to
link to all of the places that people can find you,
and the fellowship and all of those things, but tell
our listeners right now where they can find you individually
and collectively and anything else you need them to know
before we get into our questions to carry with you
after the break. So the New York and Center for
Contemplative Carry Confine us at zencre dot org and at
(30:43):
New York Zen Center at New York's and Center for
Instagram and Coach and Paley Ellison at Coach and Really
Elson for Instagram and Toto Campbell Zerology than or applications
for the Fellowship open soon. For the Contemplative Medicine Fellowship
(31:06):
are currently open is open enrollment, and so we're already
filling up for the next cohort. And we have a
podcast it's called end Care and you can find an
Apple podcasts oh and our books Awake Up, the Bedside,
Contemplative Teachings and Patative and End of Life Care and
(31:27):
my book co Hearted, Slowed Down, Help Out, Wake Up.
Both of those books can be found anywhere that books
are sold excellent. Each week I leave you with questions
to carry with you until we meet again. It's part
(31:48):
of that whole. This awkward stuff gets easier with practice. Thing.
But this week we are not wasting an opportunity to
hear from our guests with their questions to carry with you.
So one of the things that I invite you to
do this week is to reflect on what else is true?
And so when you find yourself caught in some thought
(32:11):
about a sadness or an anger or grief, just to
invite the question what else is true? For me? This
is a way to learn how to widen out, not
to bypass anything, not to deny anything, but to actually
allow ourselves to ground ourselves right where we are. I
(32:34):
remember walking down the street the other day, just feeling
so sorrowful and looking up in the sky into seeing
the birds flying above and the branches, the bare branches
framing the sky, like that was also true, So that
finding how do you drop down and widen out and
(32:56):
find what else is true? Is it really overused sentence
or cliche? Wake up and smell the coffee. I like
to ask you to wake up and smell and notice
and see whatever is in front of you. You're walking
down the street, a lady or gentleman with a stroller
(33:19):
and baby walking towards you. Notice that moment of look
at that beautiful baby, or that that baby doesn't stop crying.
Why isn't the parents taking care of it? Just notice?
Noticed dogsh it on the sidewalk. Notice the beauty of
the buzz are beginning to appear now in the spring
(33:39):
or whatever the time of year is. But to really
notice what is in front of you from your home,
on the way to work. What is it like to
step onto the bus, the transition from the sidewalk to
the bus. The people on the bus who are today
notice them. Don't get stuck in your iPhone. You have
(34:00):
a pose whatever it is. Be fully awake to your life,
to each moment of your life, because it's short. In
my meditations, I say, each in breath is bringing life
into the body, and each outbreath is a small day.
The last thing we do, it's die on the ExHAM
(34:21):
when we done. The last thing we do is ExHAM ah.
So on each breath. Where is you are in your
life right now? I want to know how to send
your questions into me to maybe answer in the future show.
(34:42):
This show is nothing without your questions. It is literally
a Q and a show. I use your questions to
talk about the wider world. So if you have a question,
I guarantee that at least a thousand other people have
the same question. There's no empirical evidence for that number,
so don't quote me. But I'm sure whatever you're wrestling with,
other people are wrestling with it too. So bring me
(35:04):
your questions, your clinical questions, your frustrations about caregiving or life,
anything that you're really wrestling with, and you could use
a script for let's talk it out. Call us at
three to three six four three three seven six eight
and leave a voicemail. If you missed it, you can
find that number in the show notes or visit us
at Megan Divine dot c O. If you'd rather send
(35:26):
an email, you can do that right on the website
Megan Divine dot c O. We want to hear from you.
This show, this world needs your questions. Together, we can
make things better even when we can't make them right.
You know how most people are gonna scam through their
podcast app looking for a new thing. They're going to
(35:47):
see the show description for Hereafter and think I don't
want to talk about that stuff. Well, here's where you
come in your reviews. Let people know it really isn't
all that bad. In here we talk about heavy stuff,
but it's in the service of making things better or
for everyone, So everyone needs to listen. Spread the word
in your workplace, in your social world on social media
and click through to leave a review. Subscribe to the show,
(36:10):
download episodes, and send in your questions. Want more Here After?
Grief education doesn't just belong to end of life issues.
Life is full of losses, from everyday disappointments to events
that clearly divide life into before and after. Learning how
to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or
(36:31):
simplistic think positive posters is an important skill for everyone.
Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every human trying
to make their way in the world after something goes
horribly wrong at Megan Divine dot c O. Hereafter with
Megan Divine is written and produced by me Megan Divine.
Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by Kimberly Cowen,
(36:55):
Tanya Jujas, and Elizabeth Fosio. Edited by Houston Tilly and
st video support by Chris Uren. Music provided by Wave
Crush h
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