April 3, 2024 • 24 mins
What should you do if someone wants to be friends, but you’re not into it? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY.
Welcome to part two of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.
In this episode we cover:
- Starting over in a new place with new friends
- Why we so often confuse boundaries with being mean or rude
- The power of social observation to gather data (Megan’s go-to move!)
- Scripts for saying “no thank you” to a potential friendship when that feels both mean and necessary
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
About our guest:
Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back.
You might know her from her popular instagram channel @dr.alexandra.solomon, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at dralexandrasolomon.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at dralexandrasolomon.com
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm
your host, Megan Devine. This week part two of my
discussion about boundaries, how to make them, how to keep them,
how to breach them when that's necessary, with special guests
doctor Alexandra Solomon. Stay tuned, everybody Part two coming right
up after this first break.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Before we get started. Two quick notes.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
One, this episode is an encore performance.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I am on break working on a giant.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
New project, so we're releasing a mix of our favorite
episodes from the first three seasons of the show. This
episode is from season one, in which I answered listener questions,
sometimes on my own, sometimes with a guest. So if
you want more of these Q and A style episodes,
you can find the entire collection from season one wherever
you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Second note, while.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
We cover a lot of emotional relational territory in our
time here together, this show is to substitute for skilled
support for the license mental health provider or for professional
supervision related to your work. I really want you to
take what you learn here, take your thoughts and your
reflections out into your own world and talk about it all.
(01:16):
Welcome back, friends, We have been talking to doctor Alexandra Solomon,
author of Loving Bravely, on how to navigate the sticky
business of boundaries while retaining kindness and curiosity. That is
like the question or the topic of the ages. Okay,
so our second listener question today is the other side
of the story from our first question, how to step
(01:39):
away from somebody when you know that the continued connection
is not in your own best interest. You ready for
this one?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Let's do it, Dear Megan. I don't know how to
distance myself from a friend without hurting her. I would
really appreciate your advice. After a rough couple of years
involving illness and some other major life changes, I just
moved to a new place and I've been making new friends.
There's one girl in this friend group who's had serious
(02:08):
mental health issues herself, and she's been trying to get
closer to me. She's quite vulnerable, and I just don't
think I can offer her the thought, the love, the
advice that she needs and deserves. I feel like I
don't have the energy to be around her. But at
the same time, because she is so vulnerable, I don't
want to hurt her by ignoring her. So how can
(02:28):
I distance myself from her without being mean? Thanks so
much for your help. Okay, where do we start with
this one?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Well, this is I mean, this is certainly a boundaries question,
and it's really it's so tender, similar to our last one,
I guess I would want to start by just like
reflecting back to this listener that there's a lot of
novelty and change in her life. Right, There's been some loss, Right,
there was illness and other major life changes that may
(02:58):
have involved loss and greed. And now she's stepping in
and she's building new circles of connection and new relationships.
So like I'm imagining her as kind of cracked wide open, right,
She's everything is perhaps like in like super like technicolor clarity,
you know, like as often as the case when we're
(03:18):
like emerging from crisis. So I can imagine that she's
just she's very sensitive to dynamics and focusing so much
on her own healing and finding her own footing that
she's really sensitive to not wanting to be responsible for
somebody else. And so that's what that's the energy in
this one particular dynamic is an energy where she's feeling
(03:41):
put upon perhaps at a time when she is really
needing to cent her her own wellness and her own needs,
perhaps for the first time. Right, Maybe that's what this
chapter is about for her, is like, you know, she's
going to really take care of herself for the first time.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Perhaps ever, Yeah, it could be. We really don't know
the whole backstory. What you really picked up there is,
you know, I have gone through some stuff myself, and
I know what it's like to feel snubbed or ignored
or not cared for, and I don't want to do
that to this person. And at the same time, I
don't have the bandwidth to give them the support they deserve.
(04:17):
So I think this is actually something that comes up
a lot for a lot of people, whether there's a
death involved or not.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I mean, just the exhaustion of being alive with your
eyes open.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It's so much emotional bandwidth, right, And we've all got
people in our lives who are in need of and
deserving of a level of support that we just we
just can't give.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So how do you cut somebody out without being the jerk?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Right? Well? And that was what was the word that
she is. She wants to distance herself without being mean
and that's you know, I think that that feels really gent.
Like if this was a man writing about a male friend,
I don't know that the same adjective would have been chosen.
But certainly, as girls and women, we are really afraid
to be mean. Right, all went through middle school. We
all know that fear of exclusion, the fear, and so
(05:04):
I think that there's a way in which that puts
us at risk of confounding healthy boundaries with.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Cruelty or meanness.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
It's what you're saying. It is she's really sensitive to
not wanting to overpromise and underdeliver, and that is a generosity, right,
that's actually a complete act of kindness to not promise
this woman a kind of depth and regularity, you know,
thought love advice. Doesn't want to want to promise to
(05:33):
provide things that she knows darn well she's not going
to be able to provide in an ongoing way. So
I would really want her to remember as she figures
out her next steps, which I think we ought to
help and work on scripting for her, but I want
her to remember that I hear a lot of kindness
in this. Yeah, this in the way she's positioning herself here.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
It's really interesting to think about that gender construct of
for women and sort of that feminine end of the
gender spectrum, like this idea that having boundaries isn't nice,
that understanding what you can and can't provide is mean,
but honestly, like if we think about it, that boils
(06:15):
things down to this like win lose situation, Right, Like
if I show up for this person, if I over
deliver what I know that I'm capable of because they're
deserving of love and support, then I kind of lose
because I don't have this in me, but I'm going
to give anyway because that's what I should do. So
I lose, they win, or I win because I have
(06:35):
good boundaries and I kind of distance myself from this person,
but they lose because I'm being mean to them. Like
there's this real transactional wind lose thing going on. I
love the way that you reframed that of boundaries are
an act of kindness. Right, this person, the person that
we're talking about here, not the listener, but the friend
in question or the potential friend in question, Like they
(06:57):
deserve relationships that are available for them, and that saying
I am not the right fit for you, is an
act of love and kindness and community.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
We just don't think of them that way, do we.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
No.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
No, No, In fact, I mean in that sort of like
win lose scenario where if this if our question writer
were to just like empty herself of all needs and
wants and provide complete and total presence to this friend.
In some ways, the subtle message is being conveyed to
the friend is you can't do it on your own.
(07:32):
You are incredibly weak and needy, and you can't there
there's no internal resources and the only resource you have
is me. So in some way right, in some way, yeah,
to the hubans of it, in the way in which
it would reinforce for this friend, Oh my gosh, you
really are so sick and so ill equipped to handle
your own life that this is the only way you can.
(07:54):
There's a way there's almost like condescending rather than figuring
out how to help her tap not just her internal
resources but also like actual therapeutic resources.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
That is such a fine and subtle and important point there,
that like what we think we're doing very often when
we are jumping into help somebody who hasn't asked for help,
is we're sending the message that we don't think they
can do it. It's actually this really condescending cutting down of
somebody else, which which isn't the way that we usually
think about that stuff. So we don't know what the
(08:26):
situation is with this person, but we also don't want
this listener to, as you said, completely empty themselves of
all of their own needs so that they can reorganize
their entire life to support this person whose only help
is me in the world. Like there's oh gosh, there's
so much in there involving being nice and air quotes,
and that we think that being nice is the preferred
(08:47):
thing to do, that having a boundary is actually being
mean that we are the only source of support for
somebody in the world and that they can't make it
without us. Like there are just so many different layers.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It reminds me of.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
One of the things we were talking about earlier is
that relational self awareness, right, like being mindful of not
making assumptions or presumptions about the other in this circumstance,
but really looking at how is this feeling for me?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
What comes up for me?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
What do I need in this moment, and what are
the ways that I might respond to this relational fork
in the road with skill, kindness, and clarity.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
That was one of the things I was thinking about.
I don't know if this is like a term that
you all that you use, but one of the terms
that we use in the training model that I've been
trained and is we talk about like the remote block operation,
which is where you ask somebody like, what does this
dynamic remind you of?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
From your past?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
And so I would I wonder, you know, as we
if we imagine like what she might want to do
next or need to do next, I would want her
to begin with that remote block operation, and maybe she
meditates on it or journals on it, like what does
this dynamic remind me of? And she might go back
to a memory of whatever when her dad was really
depressed and she had to do everything for him, or
(10:03):
a time when she was really helpless and people had,
you know, whatever, the like what does this particular not
of emotion and thoughts and urges kind of remind her of?
And that might help her disentangle some ways in which
the past might be shaping how she sees this situation,
or at least help her feel kind of like two
(10:26):
feet on the ground in the present moment as she
moves into what.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
She wants to do next.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, as you're speaking about that, I'm thinking of sort
of defanging the situation, looking for the places that the
dial got turned up really high because of past experiences,
whether that is a dynamic where this listener had to
take care of somebody else to their own detriment before
or just messaging that they've had where the good thing
to do is to give and give and give and
(10:51):
give and give. We don't know what that is, So
it's not that you sort of review and assess and
reflect those things so that, like I don't know, you
find your well of giving inside, Like you don't want
to get stuck in that sort of thing, like, ah,
we don't do this so that you can violate your
own boundaries. No, but really more to look at, like
how can I look for the high volume, high emotion
(11:15):
elements of this so that I can more skillfully communicate
my needs and my expectations in this relationship without being
sort of broadsided by other things that could sort of
farm in the background and monkey with things.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
I love that tool of reflection before action so that
you can come to a sticky situation with as much
skill as you possibly can. So as we start sort
of looking at the close of this episode, we're not
there yet, but I want to make sure that we
have a couple of suggestions for this listener about you know,
they've done their reflection, they understand that boundaries are a
(11:55):
good thing and a kindness. What are some things that
they might say to this potential friend to say, I'm
not the friends you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
This idea I'm having, I want to talk through with
you and get your take on it, because I think
it's dicey. One thought I had was this that our
our question writer is new to this friend group, which
means there's a kind of history that she wasn't there for.
So I have wondered wondering about what it might be
like for her to say to another woman in the
friend group. Hey, i'm finding that with you know, Elaine,
(12:27):
I'm feeling this this in this, I'm noticing this in this.
Is this something you've experienced before? How has it been
for you? And the reason that I'm hesitant to even
bring this up because I is that I don't want
to create a triangle, just like trying our question, our
question asker and this friend and then the you know Elaine.
But in terms of just like resourcing, like what maybe
(12:48):
maybe somebody in the friend group knows. Listen, this is
how we've all handled it in the past. She responds
really well to this, like there might just be a
bit of history there that could be asked about in love.
Provided in love, then our question asker is like, she's
not reinventing the wheel, so it's dicey, and she'd have
to really make sure she's coming at it from a
(13:09):
place of care and not gossip and not triangulation. But
what do you think about that as just like kind
of a data gathering.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, definitely, my triangulation warning bells go off when we
talk about asking somebody else in the group. What I
do like, though, is perhaps a period of observation. As
you said, she's new to this friend group, she's new
to this area. There's a lot of data you can
gain by observing, So that might be one thing is
to sort of take a step back and observe what
are the other relationships like with this one particular person.
(13:40):
Is this a pattern that you're seeing? What other information
can you gather and that might just help you understand
what that person is looking for, which can inform the
way that you sort of intervene or the things that
you say. You can also get a sense of sort
of who they are as a person and how the
whole group works together. I'm a big fan of stand
(14:01):
back and observe. It's my basic mo at all social gatherings,
stand back and observe. So in addition to that, when
this person is, you know, this potential friend or this
member of the friend group is sort of coming to
you with these bids for connection, which is what I
hear in this listener question is there's some bids for
connection happening, and I don't want to reciprocate, So coming
(14:23):
up with a couple of things that you could say
around like it sounds like what you're wrestling with is
really heavy, and I don't have it in me to
really listen to that right now. Maybe you want to
offer something else. I I'd be happy to go for
a walk with you. Don't offer something that you don't
want to do. We don't want to like make things
harder for future you. But I think you can sort
(14:44):
of interrupt, intervene and connect in the ways that you
would like to because the other thing is, if this
person is a member of the friend group, you're going
to see them, right, So you don't want to be like,
I really don't like you. I'm not here for this
sort of stuff. I would much rather prefer and if
you just we just never spoke again. Like that is
maybe a little over egging the custard there perhaps, so well,
(15:09):
it's a great term, isn't it. You just what I
met one of my favorites. Okay, but I think you can.
I think you can do something like that, like take
some time to reflect. Is there anything that I would
do with this person? Maybe it's we could go for
a walk, or we could go for tea. But I
do need to let you know that having like really
emotional or or really big discussions around emotional things is
(15:31):
just not something that I can really show up for
right now. Right I think there's there's a way. And
this is one of the reasons this feels so sticky
for me. Not the scripting so much, but just the
thing is like this is personal, but it's not personal, right,
Like we say no thank you to people all the time, right,
Like if you're dating, or you're in a new place
or like you meet somebody at work or a social
(15:53):
thing and you just know that they're not your people.
And in a way it is personal, like the things
you're interested in are not the things that I'm interested in,
like your ways of connecting or relating, or like you're
a long distance biker. That's like, that's not me. So
we say no thank you to people based on personal
(16:14):
assessment all the time. So it's it's personal, but it's
not a personal judgment. And I think that's where it
gets a little bit easier for me, is it is personal,
but it's not a personal judgment. So we're not saying
thank you no because you're a terrible person. We're saying
thank you no because this what's on offer here does
not meet my needs or my interests at this time.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
And all of the ways in which you have framed this,
which I think is I think I agree with all
of what you're saying, all the ways that you're framing it.
Really it's putting ownership, responsibility, accountability on the person asking
the questions. Right nowhere in that scripting, have you said, listen, friend,
you are too much, You are too demanding. The things
(16:57):
that you want are ridiculous, there's no there's no judgment.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
It is just.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Saying, I, you know, I'm not able to meet you
in this space. And I love also that I think
I think she she does need to find a way
to say something like, you know, one thing she could
do is kind of kick the can down the street
by saying, oh, I'm busy this Friday. Oh I can't
go biking next Thursday. Oh I can't do that. But
she's just she's just kind of, you know, kicking the
can down the road. So I do think at some
(17:22):
point she needs to turn, she will need to turn
towards this and say, there are you know, these are
the ways that I really enjoy being with you, and
this this heavy conversation where I sometimes end up feeling
really responsible or kind of loaded up with a lot
of heavy stuff. I'm not I'm just not so available
for right now. I would be curious to know how
(17:44):
else you're resourcing yourself, like who you know, how else
are you caring for yourself during this time? And how
can I support and cheerlead for all of those other
kinds of self care that you're doing so that we
can maximize the kinds of connections that really feel good
and reasonable and sustainable for both of us.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, you said kick the can down the road, like
I do think you can buy yourself some time while
you observe other dynamics.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yes, well that's right, right, I think you can buy
yourself some time.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
And it does get harder to detangle yourself from relationships
that aren't serving you the longer you let them roll on. Right,
It gets harder to put a boundary in place if
you've sort of violated your own wishes for a period
of time, And that makes it honestly harder for in
this scenario, the friend in question, right, Like, wait a minute,
(18:32):
you let us go on for three months pretending that
you were my friend when you really didn't want this. Like,
that's not an active service either. So I think the
real message here that you and I both sort of
want to drill in not just for this listener, but
for everybody listening, that boundaries are an active kindness and
they're an act of love. They are a win win
situation when those boundaries are delivered with skill and boundaries,
(18:55):
I mean boundaries. I feel like boundaries are the things
that you know as clinicians, as therapists, Like boundaries are
pretty much all we ever talk about, right, no matter
what we're talking about, we are talking about boundaries.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Boundaries are our friends.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
That's right, well, all, yes, All it means is the
space for you and I bump up against each other,
and those are spaces that have to again and again
be navigated and there aren't. The reason that she wrote
you this letter is because this stuff is hard and
it's not obvious, and we don't learn it in school,
and we are I mean, she's concerned about coming across
(19:31):
as mean because she's she's a caring person, right, She's
not if she was a sociopath.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
What we have in this conversation right forward.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
So there's a lot of goodness in this.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, this, you know, this idea that each person is
their own sovereign nation, and when you have a sovereign nation,
you have borderlands, and boundaries are how we negotiate. How
do we show up to those places that bump into others?
I think, you know, like speaking into that full difficulty
sit waiting boundaries as an act of love and kindness
(20:02):
to ourselves and to others. I think that's actually a
really beautiful end note for our time here together. Even
though we can talk about boundaries forever and ever and ever.
Boundaries are something that you talk about on your podcast,
Reimagining Love. Of course, we are going to link to
that in the show notes. But your podcast is just
one of the many, many places that people can find you.
So would you tell everybody about your books, your courses,
(20:23):
anything else you would like them to know about. Where
to soak up more of your kindness and your wisdom
and your insight.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
What do you get?
Speaker 3 (20:30):
The best place to start is my website, doctor Alexander
Solomon dot com, and there you can find your way
to social media. I'm active on the Instagram and there's
links to both of my books, Loving Bravely and Taking
Sexy Back and yeah, and then I do. I've got
a couple of e courses, one for therapists, but one
for regular people called Intimate Relationships One on one, and
(20:53):
then another course about trust for couples who are working
on rebuilding trust in the wake of infidel or betrayal
or deceit. So those are all different places to kind
of continue to dive into the work of relational self awareness,
which is lifelong work.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, it really really is. All right, thank you, my friend.
Coming up next everybody, your weekly questions to carry with you,
and how you can send in your question for me
to use on the show. Don't miss that part, friends,
We will be right back.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Each week.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I leave you with some questions to carry with you
until we meet again. It's part of that whole This
awkward stuff gets a lot easier with practice, and I
definitely want you to practice. Look, boundaries are hard. There's
a reason why doctor Alexandra and I said that, like
basically everything we do can be boiled down to boundary practice.
Boundaries are basically need negotiation between humans, and that can
(21:52):
feel really overwhelming because the whole topic of making and
enforcing boundaries can make people panic. This week, your students
to carry with You is a two parter. Part one
boundary awareness. We use boundaries all the time, we just
don't usually think of them as boundaries. So part one
is to recognize normal, daily, no big deal things that
(22:13):
are actually boundaries in disguise so you can up your
confidence about them. Yeah, on the lookout, did you tell
somebody you want to tea instead of coffee? Did you
hold your hand up to an oncoming car to let
them know you were in the crosswalk and they needed
to slow the hell down. Did you tell the maintenance
or repair person that the days and times they offered
wouldn't really work for you, and then you suggested other times.
(22:34):
All those things are boundaries. You're already really good at boundaries.
My friends, start recognizing them, it'll help you feel ready
for part two, Part two of your assignment this week,
one new boundary, or maybe one new communicated boundary, because
a lot of people have boundaries that they've just never
said out loud. Is there something that's been bugging you,
(22:57):
high stakes or low stakes, doesn't really matter, something that
you've avoided communicating. It could be something as simple as
I'm not ready to talk first thing in the morning,
would you mind waiting to share wordle with me until
after I've had my coffee?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Or it could be.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Something bigger, like I need us to talk about how
we're handling the money stress we're facing. Boundaries are not
the easiest thing in the world, but they really are
our best bet at building the kinds of relationships with
ourselves and with others that we most want. Yeah, try
it out, everybody, you know how most people are going
(23:32):
to scan through their podcast app looking for a new
thing They're going to see the show description for Hereafter
and think I don't want to talk about that stuff. Well,
here's where you come in your reviews. Let people know
it really isn't all that bad. In here we talk
about heavy stuff, but it's in the service of making
things better for everyone. So everyone needs to listen. Spread
the word in your workplace, in your social world.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
On social media and click through to leave a review.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and send in your questions.
Want more Hereafter Brief education doesn't just belong to end
of life issues. Life is full of losses, from everyday
disappointments to events that clearly divide life into before and after.
Learning how to talk about all that without cliches or
(24:17):
platitudes or simplistic think positive posters is an important skill
for everyone. Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every
human trying to make their way in the world after
something goes horribly wrong at Megandivine dot Co. Hereafter with
Megan Divine is written produced by me Megan Divine, Executive
(24:39):
producer is Amy Brown and Elizabeth Fozzio, Edited by Houston Tilly.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Music provided by Wave Crush,
This is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm
your host, Megan Devine. This week part two of my
discussion about boundaries, how to make them, how to keep them,
how to breach them when that's necessary, with special guests
doctor Alexandra Solomon. Stay tuned, everybody Part two coming right
up after this first break.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Before we get started. Two quick notes.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
One, this episode is an encore performance.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I am on break working on a giant.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
New project, so we're releasing a mix of our favorite
episodes from the first three seasons of the show. This
episode is from season one, in which I answered listener questions,
sometimes on my own, sometimes with a guest. So if
you want more of these Q and A style episodes,
you can find the entire collection from season one wherever
you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Second note, while.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
We cover a lot of emotional relational territory in our
time here together, this show is to substitute for skilled
support for the license mental health provider or for professional
supervision related to your work. I really want you to
take what you learn here, take your thoughts and your
reflections out into your own world and talk about it all.
(01:16):
Welcome back, friends, We have been talking to doctor Alexandra Solomon,
author of Loving Bravely, on how to navigate the sticky
business of boundaries while retaining kindness and curiosity. That is
like the question or the topic of the ages. Okay,
so our second listener question today is the other side
of the story from our first question, how to step
(01:39):
away from somebody when you know that the continued connection
is not in your own best interest. You ready for
this one?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Let's do it, Dear Megan. I don't know how to
distance myself from a friend without hurting her. I would
really appreciate your advice. After a rough couple of years
involving illness and some other major life changes, I just
moved to a new place and I've been making new friends.
There's one girl in this friend group who's had serious
(02:08):
mental health issues herself, and she's been trying to get
closer to me. She's quite vulnerable, and I just don't
think I can offer her the thought, the love, the
advice that she needs and deserves. I feel like I
don't have the energy to be around her. But at
the same time, because she is so vulnerable, I don't
want to hurt her by ignoring her. So how can
(02:28):
I distance myself from her without being mean? Thanks so
much for your help. Okay, where do we start with
this one?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Well, this is I mean, this is certainly a boundaries question,
and it's really it's so tender, similar to our last one,
I guess I would want to start by just like
reflecting back to this listener that there's a lot of
novelty and change in her life. Right, There's been some loss, Right,
there was illness and other major life changes that may
(02:58):
have involved loss and greed. And now she's stepping in
and she's building new circles of connection and new relationships.
So like I'm imagining her as kind of cracked wide open, right,
She's everything is perhaps like in like super like technicolor clarity,
you know, like as often as the case when we're
(03:18):
like emerging from crisis. So I can imagine that she's
just she's very sensitive to dynamics and focusing so much
on her own healing and finding her own footing that
she's really sensitive to not wanting to be responsible for
somebody else. And so that's what that's the energy in
this one particular dynamic is an energy where she's feeling
(03:41):
put upon perhaps at a time when she is really
needing to cent her her own wellness and her own needs,
perhaps for the first time. Right, Maybe that's what this
chapter is about for her, is like, you know, she's
going to really take care of herself for the first time.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Perhaps ever, Yeah, it could be. We really don't know
the whole backstory. What you really picked up there is,
you know, I have gone through some stuff myself, and
I know what it's like to feel snubbed or ignored
or not cared for, and I don't want to do
that to this person. And at the same time, I
don't have the bandwidth to give them the support they deserve.
(04:17):
So I think this is actually something that comes up
a lot for a lot of people, whether there's a
death involved or not.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I mean, just the exhaustion of being alive with your
eyes open.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It's so much emotional bandwidth, right, And we've all got
people in our lives who are in need of and
deserving of a level of support that we just we
just can't give.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So how do you cut somebody out without being the jerk?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Right? Well? And that was what was the word that
she is. She wants to distance herself without being mean
and that's you know, I think that that feels really gent.
Like if this was a man writing about a male friend,
I don't know that the same adjective would have been chosen.
But certainly, as girls and women, we are really afraid
to be mean. Right, all went through middle school. We
all know that fear of exclusion, the fear, and so
(05:04):
I think that there's a way in which that puts
us at risk of confounding healthy boundaries with.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Cruelty or meanness.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
It's what you're saying. It is she's really sensitive to
not wanting to overpromise and underdeliver, and that is a generosity, right,
that's actually a complete act of kindness to not promise
this woman a kind of depth and regularity, you know,
thought love advice. Doesn't want to want to promise to
(05:33):
provide things that she knows darn well she's not going
to be able to provide in an ongoing way. So
I would really want her to remember as she figures
out her next steps, which I think we ought to
help and work on scripting for her, but I want
her to remember that I hear a lot of kindness
in this. Yeah, this in the way she's positioning herself here.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
It's really interesting to think about that gender construct of
for women and sort of that feminine end of the
gender spectrum, like this idea that having boundaries isn't nice,
that understanding what you can and can't provide is mean,
but honestly, like if we think about it, that boils
(06:15):
things down to this like win lose situation, Right, Like
if I show up for this person, if I over
deliver what I know that I'm capable of because they're
deserving of love and support, then I kind of lose
because I don't have this in me, but I'm going
to give anyway because that's what I should do. So
I lose, they win, or I win because I have
(06:35):
good boundaries and I kind of distance myself from this person,
but they lose because I'm being mean to them. Like
there's this real transactional wind lose thing going on. I
love the way that you reframed that of boundaries are
an act of kindness. Right, this person, the person that
we're talking about here, not the listener, but the friend
in question or the potential friend in question, Like they
(06:57):
deserve relationships that are available for them, and that saying
I am not the right fit for you, is an
act of love and kindness and community.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
We just don't think of them that way, do we.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
No.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
No, No, In fact, I mean in that sort of like
win lose scenario where if this if our question writer
were to just like empty herself of all needs and
wants and provide complete and total presence to this friend.
In some ways, the subtle message is being conveyed to
the friend is you can't do it on your own.
(07:32):
You are incredibly weak and needy, and you can't there
there's no internal resources and the only resource you have
is me. So in some way right, in some way, yeah,
to the hubans of it, in the way in which
it would reinforce for this friend, Oh my gosh, you
really are so sick and so ill equipped to handle
your own life that this is the only way you can.
(07:54):
There's a way there's almost like condescending rather than figuring
out how to help her tap not just her internal
resources but also like actual therapeutic resources.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
That is such a fine and subtle and important point there,
that like what we think we're doing very often when
we are jumping into help somebody who hasn't asked for help,
is we're sending the message that we don't think they
can do it. It's actually this really condescending cutting down of
somebody else, which which isn't the way that we usually
think about that stuff. So we don't know what the
(08:26):
situation is with this person, but we also don't want
this listener to, as you said, completely empty themselves of
all of their own needs so that they can reorganize
their entire life to support this person whose only help
is me in the world. Like there's oh gosh, there's
so much in there involving being nice and air quotes,
and that we think that being nice is the preferred
(08:47):
thing to do, that having a boundary is actually being
mean that we are the only source of support for
somebody in the world and that they can't make it
without us. Like there are just so many different layers.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It reminds me of.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
One of the things we were talking about earlier is
that relational self awareness, right, like being mindful of not
making assumptions or presumptions about the other in this circumstance,
but really looking at how is this feeling for me?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
What comes up for me?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
What do I need in this moment, and what are
the ways that I might respond to this relational fork
in the road with skill, kindness, and clarity.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
That was one of the things I was thinking about.
I don't know if this is like a term that
you all that you use, but one of the terms
that we use in the training model that I've been
trained and is we talk about like the remote block operation,
which is where you ask somebody like, what does this
dynamic remind you of?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
From your past?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
And so I would I wonder, you know, as we
if we imagine like what she might want to do
next or need to do next, I would want her
to begin with that remote block operation, and maybe she
meditates on it or journals on it, like what does
this dynamic remind me of? And she might go back
to a memory of whatever when her dad was really
depressed and she had to do everything for him, or
(10:03):
a time when she was really helpless and people had,
you know, whatever, the like what does this particular not
of emotion and thoughts and urges kind of remind her of?
And that might help her disentangle some ways in which
the past might be shaping how she sees this situation,
or at least help her feel kind of like two
(10:26):
feet on the ground in the present moment as she
moves into what.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
She wants to do next.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, as you're speaking about that, I'm thinking of sort
of defanging the situation, looking for the places that the
dial got turned up really high because of past experiences,
whether that is a dynamic where this listener had to
take care of somebody else to their own detriment before
or just messaging that they've had where the good thing
to do is to give and give and give and
(10:51):
give and give. We don't know what that is, So
it's not that you sort of review and assess and
reflect those things so that, like I don't know, you
find your well of giving inside, Like you don't want
to get stuck in that sort of thing, like, ah,
we don't do this so that you can violate your
own boundaries. No, but really more to look at, like
how can I look for the high volume, high emotion
(11:15):
elements of this so that I can more skillfully communicate
my needs and my expectations in this relationship without being
sort of broadsided by other things that could sort of
farm in the background and monkey with things.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
I love that tool of reflection before action so that
you can come to a sticky situation with as much
skill as you possibly can. So as we start sort
of looking at the close of this episode, we're not
there yet, but I want to make sure that we
have a couple of suggestions for this listener about you know,
they've done their reflection, they understand that boundaries are a
(11:55):
good thing and a kindness. What are some things that
they might say to this potential friend to say, I'm
not the friends you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
This idea I'm having, I want to talk through with
you and get your take on it, because I think
it's dicey. One thought I had was this that our
our question writer is new to this friend group, which
means there's a kind of history that she wasn't there for.
So I have wondered wondering about what it might be
like for her to say to another woman in the
friend group. Hey, i'm finding that with you know, Elaine,
(12:27):
I'm feeling this this in this, I'm noticing this in this.
Is this something you've experienced before? How has it been
for you? And the reason that I'm hesitant to even
bring this up because I is that I don't want
to create a triangle, just like trying our question, our
question asker and this friend and then the you know Elaine.
But in terms of just like resourcing, like what maybe
(12:48):
maybe somebody in the friend group knows. Listen, this is
how we've all handled it in the past. She responds
really well to this, like there might just be a
bit of history there that could be asked about in love.
Provided in love, then our question asker is like, she's
not reinventing the wheel, so it's dicey, and she'd have
to really make sure she's coming at it from a
(13:09):
place of care and not gossip and not triangulation. But
what do you think about that as just like kind
of a data gathering.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, definitely, my triangulation warning bells go off when we
talk about asking somebody else in the group. What I
do like, though, is perhaps a period of observation. As
you said, she's new to this friend group, she's new
to this area. There's a lot of data you can
gain by observing, So that might be one thing is
to sort of take a step back and observe what
are the other relationships like with this one particular person.
(13:40):
Is this a pattern that you're seeing? What other information
can you gather and that might just help you understand
what that person is looking for, which can inform the
way that you sort of intervene or the things that
you say. You can also get a sense of sort
of who they are as a person and how the
whole group works together. I'm a big fan of stand
(14:01):
back and observe. It's my basic mo at all social gatherings,
stand back and observe. So in addition to that, when
this person is, you know, this potential friend or this
member of the friend group is sort of coming to
you with these bids for connection, which is what I
hear in this listener question is there's some bids for
connection happening, and I don't want to reciprocate, So coming
(14:23):
up with a couple of things that you could say
around like it sounds like what you're wrestling with is
really heavy, and I don't have it in me to
really listen to that right now. Maybe you want to
offer something else. I I'd be happy to go for
a walk with you. Don't offer something that you don't
want to do. We don't want to like make things
harder for future you. But I think you can sort
(14:44):
of interrupt, intervene and connect in the ways that you
would like to because the other thing is, if this
person is a member of the friend group, you're going
to see them, right, So you don't want to be like,
I really don't like you. I'm not here for this
sort of stuff. I would much rather prefer and if
you just we just never spoke again. Like that is
maybe a little over egging the custard there perhaps, so well,
(15:09):
it's a great term, isn't it. You just what I
met one of my favorites. Okay, but I think you can.
I think you can do something like that, like take
some time to reflect. Is there anything that I would
do with this person? Maybe it's we could go for
a walk, or we could go for tea. But I
do need to let you know that having like really
emotional or or really big discussions around emotional things is
(15:31):
just not something that I can really show up for
right now. Right I think there's there's a way. And
this is one of the reasons this feels so sticky
for me. Not the scripting so much, but just the
thing is like this is personal, but it's not personal, right,
Like we say no thank you to people all the time, right,
Like if you're dating, or you're in a new place
or like you meet somebody at work or a social
(15:53):
thing and you just know that they're not your people.
And in a way it is personal, like the things
you're interested in are not the things that I'm interested in,
like your ways of connecting or relating, or like you're
a long distance biker. That's like, that's not me. So
we say no thank you to people based on personal
(16:14):
assessment all the time. So it's it's personal, but it's
not a personal judgment. And I think that's where it
gets a little bit easier for me, is it is personal,
but it's not a personal judgment. So we're not saying
thank you no because you're a terrible person. We're saying
thank you no because this what's on offer here does
not meet my needs or my interests at this time.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
And all of the ways in which you have framed this,
which I think is I think I agree with all
of what you're saying, all the ways that you're framing it.
Really it's putting ownership, responsibility, accountability on the person asking
the questions. Right nowhere in that scripting, have you said, listen, friend,
you are too much, You are too demanding. The things
(16:57):
that you want are ridiculous, there's no there's no judgment.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
It is just.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Saying, I, you know, I'm not able to meet you
in this space. And I love also that I think
I think she she does need to find a way
to say something like, you know, one thing she could
do is kind of kick the can down the street
by saying, oh, I'm busy this Friday. Oh I can't
go biking next Thursday. Oh I can't do that. But
she's just she's just kind of, you know, kicking the
can down the road. So I do think at some
(17:22):
point she needs to turn, she will need to turn
towards this and say, there are you know, these are
the ways that I really enjoy being with you, and
this this heavy conversation where I sometimes end up feeling
really responsible or kind of loaded up with a lot
of heavy stuff. I'm not I'm just not so available
for right now. I would be curious to know how
(17:44):
else you're resourcing yourself, like who you know, how else
are you caring for yourself during this time? And how
can I support and cheerlead for all of those other
kinds of self care that you're doing so that we
can maximize the kinds of connections that really feel good
and reasonable and sustainable for both of us.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, you said kick the can down the road, like
I do think you can buy yourself some time while
you observe other dynamics.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yes, well that's right, right, I think you can buy
yourself some time.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
And it does get harder to detangle yourself from relationships
that aren't serving you the longer you let them roll on. Right,
It gets harder to put a boundary in place if
you've sort of violated your own wishes for a period
of time, And that makes it honestly harder for in
this scenario, the friend in question, right, Like, wait a minute,
(18:32):
you let us go on for three months pretending that
you were my friend when you really didn't want this. Like,
that's not an active service either. So I think the
real message here that you and I both sort of
want to drill in not just for this listener, but
for everybody listening, that boundaries are an active kindness and
they're an act of love. They are a win win
situation when those boundaries are delivered with skill and boundaries,
(18:55):
I mean boundaries. I feel like boundaries are the things
that you know as clinicians, as therapists, Like boundaries are
pretty much all we ever talk about, right, no matter
what we're talking about, we are talking about boundaries.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Boundaries are our friends.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
That's right, well, all, yes, All it means is the
space for you and I bump up against each other,
and those are spaces that have to again and again
be navigated and there aren't. The reason that she wrote
you this letter is because this stuff is hard and
it's not obvious, and we don't learn it in school,
and we are I mean, she's concerned about coming across
(19:31):
as mean because she's she's a caring person, right, She's
not if she was a sociopath.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
What we have in this conversation right forward.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
So there's a lot of goodness in this.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, this, you know, this idea that each person is
their own sovereign nation, and when you have a sovereign nation,
you have borderlands, and boundaries are how we negotiate. How
do we show up to those places that bump into others?
I think, you know, like speaking into that full difficulty
sit waiting boundaries as an act of love and kindness
(20:02):
to ourselves and to others. I think that's actually a
really beautiful end note for our time here together. Even
though we can talk about boundaries forever and ever and ever.
Boundaries are something that you talk about on your podcast,
Reimagining Love. Of course, we are going to link to
that in the show notes. But your podcast is just
one of the many, many places that people can find you.
So would you tell everybody about your books, your courses,
(20:23):
anything else you would like them to know about. Where
to soak up more of your kindness and your wisdom
and your insight.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
What do you get?
Speaker 3 (20:30):
The best place to start is my website, doctor Alexander
Solomon dot com, and there you can find your way
to social media. I'm active on the Instagram and there's
links to both of my books, Loving Bravely and Taking
Sexy Back and yeah, and then I do. I've got
a couple of e courses, one for therapists, but one
for regular people called Intimate Relationships One on one, and
(20:53):
then another course about trust for couples who are working
on rebuilding trust in the wake of infidel or betrayal
or deceit. So those are all different places to kind
of continue to dive into the work of relational self awareness,
which is lifelong work.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, it really really is. All right, thank you, my friend.
Coming up next everybody, your weekly questions to carry with you,
and how you can send in your question for me
to use on the show. Don't miss that part, friends,
We will be right back.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Each week.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I leave you with some questions to carry with you
until we meet again. It's part of that whole This
awkward stuff gets a lot easier with practice, and I
definitely want you to practice. Look, boundaries are hard. There's
a reason why doctor Alexandra and I said that, like
basically everything we do can be boiled down to boundary practice.
Boundaries are basically need negotiation between humans, and that can
(21:52):
feel really overwhelming because the whole topic of making and
enforcing boundaries can make people panic. This week, your students
to carry with You is a two parter. Part one
boundary awareness. We use boundaries all the time, we just
don't usually think of them as boundaries. So part one
is to recognize normal, daily, no big deal things that
(22:13):
are actually boundaries in disguise so you can up your
confidence about them. Yeah, on the lookout, did you tell
somebody you want to tea instead of coffee? Did you
hold your hand up to an oncoming car to let
them know you were in the crosswalk and they needed
to slow the hell down. Did you tell the maintenance
or repair person that the days and times they offered
wouldn't really work for you, and then you suggested other times.
(22:34):
All those things are boundaries. You're already really good at boundaries.
My friends, start recognizing them, it'll help you feel ready
for part two, Part two of your assignment this week,
one new boundary, or maybe one new communicated boundary, because
a lot of people have boundaries that they've just never
said out loud. Is there something that's been bugging you,
(22:57):
high stakes or low stakes, doesn't really matter, something that
you've avoided communicating. It could be something as simple as
I'm not ready to talk first thing in the morning,
would you mind waiting to share wordle with me until
after I've had my coffee?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Or it could be.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Something bigger, like I need us to talk about how
we're handling the money stress we're facing. Boundaries are not
the easiest thing in the world, but they really are
our best bet at building the kinds of relationships with
ourselves and with others that we most want. Yeah, try
it out, everybody, you know how most people are going
(23:32):
to scan through their podcast app looking for a new
thing They're going to see the show description for Hereafter
and think I don't want to talk about that stuff. Well,
here's where you come in your reviews. Let people know
it really isn't all that bad. In here we talk
about heavy stuff, but it's in the service of making
things better for everyone. So everyone needs to listen. Spread
the word in your workplace, in your social world.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
On social media and click through to leave a review.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and send in your questions.
Want more Hereafter Brief education doesn't just belong to end
of life issues. Life is full of losses, from everyday
disappointments to events that clearly divide life into before and after.
Learning how to talk about all that without cliches or
(24:17):
platitudes or simplistic think positive posters is an important skill
for everyone. Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every
human trying to make their way in the world after
something goes horribly wrong at Megandivine dot Co. Hereafter with
Megan Divine is written produced by me Megan Divine, Executive
(24:39):
producer is Amy Brown and Elizabeth Fozzio, Edited by Houston Tilly.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Music provided by Wave Crush,
Host
Megan Devine
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