Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Can we talk about that triumphant narrative because we know,
hitting the ten year milestone of Sandy Hook, that those
triumph stories are going to start arriving. What what if
you could if you could see us everybody on video,
(00:22):
We're both just like, uh huh, yeah, yeah, that's coming
because there's no there are no words for the bullshit.
There are no words for the superficiality that that narrative demands.
There's no words. It's like trying to tell to I
don't know. Listen. We need more depth, we need more complexity,
(00:46):
we need a larger range of emotions. This is year after,
and I'm your host, Megan Divine, author of the best
selling book It's Okay that You're not okay. It's been
ten years since the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary, where
twenty children and six adults were murdered in an act
(01:06):
of public gun violence. Now, while we've got everybody's attention
in the flurry of ten year anniversary media reports, Sandy
Hook Parents survivor Nelba Marquez Green wants you to know
what survival really looks like behind the headlines and the clickbait.
This is a rerelease of the very first episode of
(01:27):
season two, it felt important to bring it back out
to everybody this week. On this week's show, Nelba and
I discuss what it's like to live such a public grief,
and just as important, what it means to find joy
and hope in an often violent world. All of that
(01:49):
coming up right after this first break. Before we get started,
one quick note, Well, we cover a lot of emotional
relational territory in each and every episode. This show is
not a substitute for skilled support with a licensed mental
(02:10):
health provider or for professional supervision related to your work.
Hey friends, So when I asked this week's guest for
her official bio, here's what she offered me. Nelba Marquess
Green is a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in grief,
loss trauma, and their impact on individuals and systems. Now,
(02:34):
that is an absolutely true, an accurate description. What she
doesn't say is that she became a ferocious advocate for
survivors and grieving people after her child was murdered at
Sandy Hook Elementary. Nelba and I have been Internet friends
(02:55):
for a number of years now. We usually shared quick
acknowledgment and connect whenever something that is related to gun
violence comes up in the news just to show that
we see each other. I've also come to know her
humor and her snarkiness, and a little bit of the
personal life beyond the soundbites that she is often called
(03:15):
upon to do whenever yet another new act of public
gun violence shows up in the world. I've also come
to know her ferocious commitment to claiming joy right alongside
the grief in her life and her family's life. If
you've ever wanted to know what it's like to live
on after a horrific act of public violence, this episode
(03:39):
is for you. If you've ever felt like people tell
you what your own survival should look like without ever
actually asking you what you want for yourself, this episode
is also for you. And if you just really need
to hear a story of hope and love and connect
(04:00):
in the face of really horrendous events that I don't
even have language for, which really I think is all
of us, this episode is for you too. A couple
of content notes. This episode explores the realities of gun violence,
and it contains a fair bit of swearing. Let's get rolling, okay, everybody.
(04:27):
I am so excited for this conversation today, and so
excited to share this person with you. I get terry
even thinking about it now. The Hi friend, welcome. I'm
so happy to be here. Thank you so much for
all you put out in this world to make it
a kinder, gentler, more just world for grievers. Thank you.
(04:53):
You and I are united on so many things, but
I think this, like this is such a foundational bedrock
thing that you and I share, this ferocious protection of
grieving people. In my notes where I've got like, I've
got so many topics that I feel like you and
I can talk about, but I'm gonna go with some
current events here for a second. The pressure that you
(05:17):
and survivor families like yours get anytime there's like yet
another act of mass violence, like the pressure that surviving
families get to weigh in, tell us what people need?
Do this? Do that? Like this relentless push that survivors get.
So you have a recent New York Times op ed
(05:39):
in July, and one of the many lines that I
pulled out of that today, i'd like to open with
this one, and you wrote, Americans want a healthier and
safer world, but we don't protect wounded people. I think
that's a really amazing place to start. Can you tell
me what you mean by that we don't protect wounded people,
you know. So my perspective of helping wounded folks comes
(06:05):
from many different pieces. It comes from cultural places, it
comes from spiritual places, It comes from life experience. It
comes from the perspective of being a marginalized woman. Right.
I'm a four foot eleven inch not small woman from
Puerto Rico. English is not her first language, and has
(06:26):
lived in the US and is married to a black
man and lost a child in a shooting and has
a surviving son who's eighteen, and I'm terrified for he
looks like Tamir Rice. He looks like Trey von Martin.
So my influence and perspective comes from many different places.
But my fundamental value is that people who are wounded
(06:51):
by trauma or tragedy should actually be safe, protected, loved,
and made whole. And that we don't do that by
adding additional burden or outside expectation. We do that by resourcing, right,
And we live in a world that constantly demands resilience
without providing proper resource. I like to stand up when
(07:16):
I see that and say, this is actually not how
we do it. This is actually not. I think everyone
wants to talk about the product. Maybe the product is
you know, gun safety law change, which which is desperately needed,
but we also have to talk about the process. How
we get to the product is just as important as
(07:36):
getting to the product, at least for brief families. That's
just how I see it. Yeah, there's I think there's
this idea that surviving families are a public commodity, right
that if we really believe in, as you said, the product,
if we really believe in gun control, in gun safety,
(07:56):
then kind of by any means necessary, right, Like, then
you should be out there speaking about these things. We
should be able to see photos of dead children, dead bodies.
There should be nothing held back because we truly believe
in that product of gun safety. And you really stand
up and say, wait a minute, like wrong path to
(08:17):
the mountaintop? Friends, do you want to say a little
bit about that process of getting to that product? And sure,
I think again, coming from a background where I am
already familiar with being commodified, marginalized, colonialized, my experience of
Sandy Hook might be quite different than many of the
(08:38):
other families. I only speak for myself, but what I
saw was exactly that a lot of people who after
Anna died made decisions on what I should and shouldn't do.
And I think the only people who get to determine
and decide that are families. So when we do want
a specific product from a family, what we should do
is figure out if they're our barriers and then try
(09:02):
to eliminate those barriers. So, if we are deeply feeling
that people and families who have lost relativestic on violence
should be doing fantastic that you feel that way, what's
the resource you're going to offer in order for me
to get there with you? Because the advocacy space and
the caring for space is sometimes the same but often
(09:22):
very different. And we want to work closely together because
we do all want that product. But I am not
the sacrifice you're going to put on the altar. You
already did that to my daughter. You don't get to
take me, you don't get to take my son, you
don't get to take my husband. Yeah, and you can't
see me. So at this point I want you to
know that I am pointing, and when I am pointing,
that means something. I think it's really gross. I do
(09:46):
think it doesn't come from a gross all the time,
a gross place. I think people are desperate and people
are scared, and I understand, but I want our desire
to see families who have experienced this stay alive. I
even thrive to be as much a priority as our
need for legislative change. And we have seen a number
(10:11):
of deaths by suicide, and I am trying desperately to
remind people that we are humans and need care. Yeah,
you're not a pr campaign, right. I think we forget
this a lot, that behind every headline are actual human
beings who are affected by these things. And you're right,
there's that desperation, right, this panic of we have to
(10:34):
do something, well, yes, and not continuing to put that
burden on the people you're trying to protect or you
think you're trying to protect. I love that you said, like,
I don't think that most people have nefarious intent in there.
I also just like any opportunity I can take to
use the word nefarious, because I think it's a wonderful word.
But I think, like you know, most people think like,
(10:56):
but you know, we're not asking you this or not
not doing this to you out of malice, but out
of like desperation and desire to make people safe, and
we just don't think about the human cost of our demands, right, yes.
And activism that centers you as an outside person with
(11:16):
an opinion and doesn't center me is commodification. Yes, right,
say that again. We are going to use that everywhere. Yes. Yeah.
So I have been at events that have been change
driven events where people have literally elbowed me in the
head to get to a speaker, right, a movement leader,
(11:38):
someone who hasn't lost a person, but just a movement leader. So,
because I am a therapist by training and a very
curious person on human behavior, I remember one particular time
I was elbowed in the head and I turned around
to the woman and I said, wow, you seem to
be in quite a rush. What are you here to do?
And she says, supports the families of down. She had
(12:02):
absolutely no recognition that she was talking to a mother.
And it wasn't until the speaker pointed me out and said,
thank you for coming, Melba, because I know you don't
come to a lot of these things, that all of
a sudden, this woman next to me, who had just
physically elbowed me in the head, became all a flutter
because then she knew who I was. It's exactly why
(12:24):
I don't put who I am in my I don't
know if you've noticed, I don't put it in my
bio on Twitter. I want to see who you are
and how you treat me before you know I lost
a kid in Newtown, because I sure as hell hope
that if I lost a kid in Compton or Hartford
or anywhere, that you would give as much a crap
(12:44):
then just because it's Newtown, because you're not really an activist.
You're looking for some kind of you. You're centering yourself,
And we just really got to drill down this point
that if you're fighting for me, you have to know me. Yeah,
and that means being uncomfortable and awkward and unknowing, right,
(13:07):
And this is this is true for anybody going through
a personal experience, right, Like we think we know better.
We want to come in and be like, I know
what you need, you need this, and I'm doing this
for you, and let me just show up and do
all like Hello, why don't you take a beat and
ask the person in front of you who they are
(13:29):
and what they need. If you truly want to be
of service, find out what that person needs and serve there.
It means humility. It means offering somebody else their own
sovereignty and their own agency, and we are just not skill.
That's not a habit, right, Like centering somebody else's experience
(13:50):
and showing up to serve the way they need to
be served. That is not the way that we normally
do things. We really want to be seen as the savior.
I am mending all the way here. I am saying, yes, girl, yes,
I honestly don't think these are things I would have
known before I lost Anna, in the same way as
(14:11):
since having lost a child. There is something to us
that wants to feel that we have fixed, we have helped,
we have been the one to resolve. But as we know,
grief does not have easy fixes or easy helps or resolve,
And it's just that witnessing, that journeying, that being with
us and allowing us to borrow your words to have
(14:34):
sovereignty agency over our experience is what is really helpful.
I'm so glad you said that. That was Yeah. I
am a big fan of sovereignty. There are so many headlines,
so many issues right now where sovereignty is the answer right,
like sovereignty is actually the answer you're looking for, friends,
(14:56):
And this is one of the things that I really
love about this work is that these things aren't siloed. No. Right,
The ways that people should treat families who have survived
gun violence is the same way that they should treat
people in the queer community, people in the trans community,
communities of color. Like when people are telling you what hurts,
(15:18):
you need to believe them and let them lead. So
these aren't I think we can get Oh, I think
we can get trapped into thinking like these are separate incidences.
None of these things are separate. This is the way
that we have decided we are of the most use
without finding out if we are of the most use.
And this idea to borrow from the recovery language, like
(15:42):
taking other people's emotional inventory for them, I know what
you need, you need to do this, like hmm, there
is a time for feedback and advice and suggestions. Yes,
I think people get really super stuck in like the
on off switch of like oh, then nobody can tell
you anything, and if you're doing it wrong, like nobody
is allowed to tell you. Well no, But if we
(16:05):
start with connection, if we start with a shared foundation,
where your primary experience is the one that we hold
sovereign and central. Then we can have a respectful conversation
about what things might need to shift for you. The
pushback that I often hear is yes, well, sometimes people
are doing things that are harmful to themselves or others,
(16:25):
and we don't want to just allow them to be
all sovereign about that shit. What do you think about that?
It's a very colonialist model of help. It's a very
early social work development model of help. It says I
know what you need. You don't know what you need,
but I know what you need, and it drives exploitation.
What does that look like, delba? What are you talking about? Okay,
(16:46):
we heard some of that language when people were collecting
money on our behalf. So you don't know what you need,
so we're going to hold that money for you. What
do you mean You get to use my daughter's picture,
her image, our tragedy, raise money and then say you're
not going to give it out because we don't really
know what we need, so you're going to hold it
and make me ask you. It's a very non victim
(17:10):
centered approach. It's very paternalistic it's it's so gross and exploitive,
and I can't even begin to tell you how painful
it is to have to grieve a loved one, to
be put in this position of tragedy, and then be
asked to fight for your sense of agency and sovereignty
(17:30):
in this way or be put in this position. Now,
some people may not be as sensitized to it, and
I respect that. Again, I want to say, respect survivor choice,
whatever it is. I'm not saying nobody should show an
image or everyone should take issue with the same things
I take issue with. No, no, no no, no no, But
we do want to respect people's ways of being. And
(17:52):
I think that's just so important and exactly what you
said earlier. Yeah, we've been talking with Nelba Marquez Green,
founder of the On a Grace Project and a gun
violence survivor advocate. Let's get back to it. Do you
(18:13):
want to tell people a little bit about the whole
fundraising for families thing? And let me phrase, let me
frame this a little bit. I was watching your most
recent interview on the View and I love that they
asked you what can people do in the wake of
each new tragedy, and you said, look for the families
and give direct support there. Can you tell folks a
(18:34):
little bit about thinking about what you just said about
how you were basically given or either had an allowance
or were barred from the financial resources that were that
were fundraised, Like I think a lot of people don't
realize that sort of weirder size of financial support for
(18:55):
surviving families. Can you tell people a little bit about
that so they know what we're talking about. I want
you or listeners to know that it is really bad,
bad in many ways, and you have to be so
incredibly conscientious in order to create a different manner of
being So thirty seconds before that interview on the view
that you're talking about, I'm running to the producer because
(19:17):
I can see on the teleprompter that they're going to
end the segment with my foundation. So I'm saying to
the producer, you can't do that. I don't want you
to do that because other people's tragedy is not the
place or time to promote yourself. And I do really
great work, and I love my work, but take that off.
Take that off. And they were fine. I know, I'm
(19:37):
not sure they understood, but they trusted me enough to
take it off because I had such a response to it.
The second thing I would like to tell people is
that tragedy community tragedy becomes an incredible community development model.
And it becomes that because again, we don't center families,
we don't center those people. Think of concentric circles with
(19:58):
those most impacted in the center, and then every circle
out having another layer. It is easier to influence and
impact the people in those external layers. Those people don't
have demands. They're not scary, right, They're not going to
typically yell at you. You're not going to feel bad
when they say, hey, I don't want that, I want this.
(20:19):
They're easier to meet. Right. You can take a picture
of yourself with someone thirty levels removed from Newtown and
feel really good. You gave to them, right to give
to us, to give to me. I'll only speak for me.
I have demands. Does it honor my daughter? Does it
honor God? Does it honor my family? Are you really
giving to me? No, I don't want to take a
(20:40):
picture with you. If you want to give to me,
just give to me. I should not have to pay
for this by you splashing my face on the cover
of your thing. So there's that individual level, and then
there's the systemic level of tons of people came here
to this community to raise money and said it was
for the families, and people didn't ask. And I talk
about two things there, reflective giving and reflective giving. And
(21:04):
reflective giving is that need we have to oh my gosh,
a terrible thing happened and I just want to help
and just give without thinking. And then there's a reflective
giving which forces or asks that you say, well, where's
the money really going to? Whom am I really sending
it to. That's why I love that some of these
families are now sophisticated enough to start their own go
(21:25):
fund means I'm a feeling that's going to go right
in their direct accounts, and I don't have to give
to a intermediary that's telling me they're going to give
when I don't know if that's true. I love that
distinction there between those two different kinds of giving. There
is that beautiful human impulse to want to be of help. Right,
(21:46):
I can't fix this, but I have to do something.
We love that energy here, for that energy, that's amazing, right.
I love that human impulse to connect what I hear
you saying, is we have to do the work to
vet the resource of like, where is that financial support?
Where is it actually going? Is that message of support
(22:07):
and resourcing actually meeting the person you intend, or the
family you intend, or the community you intend, Because unfortunately,
crappy reality here is nine times out of ten it
is not. And it's your right as a consumer. It's
you're right as a giver, as a donor, to say,
you know what, I think, I don't necessarily want to
give to a family. I want to give to a
(22:28):
but then do it with conscientiousness, do it, do it
with intentionality. Right. But if things were just my husband
and I would not be sitting here ten years after
Newtown wondering how we're going to send our sens at college. Yeah.
Know that your lack of ask your lack of clarity,
(22:49):
your commitment to reflexive giving instead of reflective giving, makes
families vulnerable to exploitation and in the long term doesn't
help them at all. I can think of five different
agencies who said, well, we can't just give you money.
What if you do something? And I'm thinking you collected
(23:10):
money on my behalf. That's right. I'm thirty at that
time I was thirty seven years old, I've managed my
own finances, but you're telling I mean, it was wild
and bizarre. So I encourage people listening to d due diligence,
to ask and to determine. If I have twenty dollars
to give, where do I want to give it? Yeah,
(23:31):
And that's an act of personal agency and sovereignty as well, right,
because we want you to truly do the good that
you wish to do. Like that impulse to be of use,
to be supportive, to be of service is a beautiful thing,
and we want you to be I don't know well
(23:52):
served by that. I mean, it's it's weird to say, like,
you know, give as a person who really likes to
give and be supportive and serve, like that does actually
give me something, right because one I get to feel
like I'm being of use, it helps me with my
own level of helplessness, which honestly is a pretty fricking
outsized feeling these days, that feeling of helplessness. It lets
(24:14):
me feel like I have taken tangible action for good,
and I want that for me, right, I want that
for me, And in order to really get that, I
do need to take those extra steps to ask myself,
what do I want to do with my gift of
financial resources or whatever it is, whatever tangible thing you're
(24:37):
wanting to give to that moment, what do I want
out of this? And what are the best places for
me to make sure I get that kind of return? Again,
For me, the return is feeling like I was of
tangible use. And there is nothing more beautiful I have
to say for me than when somebody reaches out to
me and says, hi, my name is and I'm connected
(25:01):
to your story. You don't have to reply, but I
just wanted to tell you that I also want to
let you know that I have these ways of being
helpful in this moment. If any of these things resonate
with you and you feel like you have the bandwidth
to reach out to me, I am here. And this
(25:24):
is an invitation that doesn't have an expiration date, or
this is an invitation that is time sensitive, but it
is truly up to you. I have had moments of
just incredible the beauty reading that and being able to
say yes, I know that with a five hundred dollars gift,
(25:47):
you want to be able to at your alma mater
put a plaque on the back of a chair with
my daughter's name on it in the performing arts center. Yes,
her family approves that, and giving us the ability to
have some control over how her name and memory and
legacy is remembered is just incredibly important. So it's a
(26:10):
listen when we do this right, because here's what I
think about all of us. We yearn to do better
for each other. Sometimes we stumble and we get it
wrong and we just don't know how and it's awkward
and weird. But there's rupture that happens when we don't.
But then there's also this wonderful concept of repair and
being in closer connection and having these repairs is so
(26:33):
freaking healing for all of us. So let's do those things.
And the rupture repair concept is not mine. I guarrowed
it from Bruce Perry, who's one of my favorite people.
But we can do this. We can so do this.
We just have to do it together. Yes, Yeah, What
I love about that is like permission to be awkward, right,
And that's scripting that you just shared. You know, if
(26:56):
somebody saying I don't need anything from you, here is
clearly what I can offer here is clearly my expectations
of you, and I'm not asking you to do more
labor or do this in this like that is so
awkwardly beautiful and beautifully awkward. We have to be willing
to make those like. Those statements should feel uncomfortable because
they're new, like classic therapist. Right, Like this behavior should
(27:18):
feel a little bit weird because it's new for you.
That means you're learning and growing and changing. Right, let's
all feel a little bit more awkward and that there's
a big risk reward there. Right, It is a risk
to be vulnerable and awkward and not center yourself. The
payoff for that is magnificent for everyone forever. We should
(27:41):
do more scripts. We should do more scripts. Let's do
a script for there's someone in your neighborhood you know
that you lost their spouse or yeah, and you don't
know what to what to say. Listen, I have this
whole concept. Not everybody's going to be an inside the
house fringe. Right. Sometimes you're a porch stay friend or
(28:02):
a mailbox friend, and you can send a note saying
I don't have any expectation, I just wanted you to
know I'm thinking of you. Sometimes people will leave little
things on my porch, and it feels so much less
intrusive than having to open the door. I'm actually so
(28:22):
grateful when somebody doesn't make me answer the door, especially
in November December, near the anniversary of the shooting, because
I don't want to put on I constantly feel on display,
and I don't want to have to put on emotional
girdles for anyone, right or I don't want to feel
like somebody's going to tell people that I was crying.
(28:46):
So anyway, so leaving something on the step is putting
something in a card in the mail I am thinking
of you. It does not require perfect words. It just
requires witnessing, witnessing, bearing, witness acknowledge. Right acknowledgement is the magic.
I see you. I don't need anything from you. I
(29:07):
don't need you to perform anything from me. I don't
even need you to say thank you. I need to
see you. Amen and again, like this is true for
everything everything. If you know people, people are often asking
me like, okay, no, but what do I do in
this specific situation? Okay, but now what about this situation?
And what about this one? Like you do not need
(29:28):
a fourteen story handbook of every script to every situation. Ever,
like I think we can boil this down to just
a couple of things. Right, Let the person at the
center of the suffering lead, ask them what they need, right,
not pester them, but ask, right, are there specific things
you need? And then find out if you can meet
(29:49):
any of those. So one, let the person at the
center lead and acknowledgement is the best medicine. You don't
have to know what to say. There is nothing to say.
Nothing you say is going to make any of this
stuff better. Saying I see you, I'm thinking of you.
You don't need to give me anything else in return.
(30:11):
That is beautiful. It's a gift. One more thing I
would encourage your listeners is sometimes there's a sense of urgency,
especially in the first six months to a year. Right,
I've offered help and they haven't called me back, So
that musn't mean we're not friends anymore or they don't
like me. Man, you're centering yourself again, and we would
(30:31):
like you to not do that, because guess what everyone
comes in the first six months, right, We need people
who are also going to be their year, six year,
ten year, sixteen year, thirty. So if your friend who
is going through treatment for an illness, or your friend
who has lost a partner or a child or a
(30:52):
parent or whoever it is, or as experience laws does
not get back to you. That doesn't necessarily mean we
do like you or you're not valuable or important. It
could literally mean that the person is so overwhelmed they
have no idea how to respond. And again you said
(31:13):
something about not pestering. That holds. It absolutely holds. And
also you can decide to put in your calendar every
two months, I am going to send the text periodically. Right,
And people who waited until I was ready to talk
to them, and maybe it took five years, but who
(31:36):
stayed after it was fashionable to care for a Sandy
Hook family became my people. People who stayed after it
was fashionable. I love the statement of you stay after
it's fashionable to stay. I think, on one hand, if
you are sort of more of a casual acquaintance to
somebody at the center of something like this, like there's
(31:58):
always a new catastrophe, there's always is a new tragedy,
there's always some new terrible thing to take your focus. Also,
like people have lives, they're living and all of that stuff, Right,
But that the longevity of care, Like your child will
never not be dead, So how can there possibly be
(32:18):
an expiration date on the care and attention and acknowledgement
that your family needs. You know, I think there is
a misperception of grief in our culture. I don't think
it's in every culture, but certainly in ours that grief
is kind of like dairy is, Yes, shelf life is
(32:39):
really short? Yeah right? By now right? Look at you?
You were on with Brenee Brown. Look at you? Oh hey,
now I by thowu with Gail. Things going good? You know,
it's like, yeah, I'm okay, man. Let me tell you
right now, let me reduce or let me kind of
like that illusion for you. Let me tell you it
(33:02):
has been five days since and I had a full
night sleep. Let me tell you that last night in
particular was brutal, having to work through yet another op
ed saying display the carnage. Time to show the carnage,
you know, just kind of encouraging this thought that says
these crime scene photos or autopsy photos should be public.
(33:24):
I'm on three hours of sleep right now, and I
don't know when that's going to get better. So could
really use a friend and that's this is ten years.
So this is what ten years might look like. So
do not pause or delay your care because you think
someone's over it. Even if they're over it, wouldn't it
be just great to do that connecting. Wouldn't it be
(33:46):
lovely to connect and find out if your assumption is
actually true? I think there's this, like you know, there's
such desperation. I mean we've touched on this a lot.
Desperation to feel like somebody who has survived a tragedy
or a trauma is all better now, Like it makes
us feel better, right, Like Okay, the world, the world
is okay, the world is a safe place. Nothing like
this would ever happen to me, but if it did,
(34:08):
I would be okay. Look look at Naba. She's on Uprus,
she's on the view, she's on this, she's got up as,
she's got all of these things. Well, that doesn't mean shit.
It's actually gonna kill people. It's going to put people
in a box where they feel like they won't be
able to tell you. I know because I talked to
(34:28):
survivors all the time, and they they it's basically a
glass enclosure that gets smaller and smaller and smaller until
the survivor feels like they don't have anywhere to turn
because either they have developed a persona of overcoming and
that's their one thing they can share, or so listen,
(34:50):
I am all for people. Well what's she for? She
doesn't want to talk about her foundation. She went, well,
I'm for survivors surviving. I'm for us thriving. I'm for
us having something that is not just laying prostrate to
the grief or holding a picket sign. I believe I'm
also meriting of joy, of peace, of whatever the hell
(35:18):
I want to have. That's right, I am you get
whatever you got? Yeah, yeah, I deserve a life I didn't.
I didn't sign up for. You know, you lose a
child and then you have to sacrifice a the other things.
I didn't sign up for that. I didn't give you
permission to to demand that of me. And I need
you to leave me alone, like all the way, yeah
(35:40):
the f alone. Yeah. Yeah. I think we think that
you know you you are articulate and insightful, right like
all of these skills that you had before any of
this and you will have forever that you owe us.
The inside scoop that now that you know, we need
to get this from you, Like we just keep coming
(36:03):
at survivors, and it is I mean, it's it's also
accurate to say, like, no one has to become an advocate,
nobody has to become a voice, Nobody has to champion
survivors or support survivors or listen to survivors. Nobody has
to do any of this stuff. It's just that, like
we get to have more than one option here. You
(36:23):
and I both do this, Like we use our voices
and our skills and our hearts and our intellect and
our language skills to speak about stuff we never wanted
to have to speak about. That doesn't mean we have
to speak it all the time to every person who
asks for all eternity, or that we should be doing
(36:44):
it for free. So another side of this is the
demand of free labor. So not only did I have
to sacrifice a child right now, I'm supposed to like
do all this for free. And so I recently create
the goodness your heart, the goodness of your heart, because
aren't you rich? Didn't you may call that money? And
(37:05):
Sandy hook, I want to say, like how am I
supposed to eat or send my kids to college? If
you want me to. I recently got an email. It
was like, Hey, you know we love you. You are amazing.
You would be perfect at this x y Z Keno.
We're going to talk about hope. And I said, great,
I'm gonna have someone send you a form. They send
a form and there's nothing in the compensation line and
(37:28):
I'm like, and our Keno is kind of a lot
of prep. While I'm good with on the fly, still
a lot of prep. Let me just double check, have
my person double check. And the reply is we will
offer free Danish and parking. And I literally wanted to
throw my computer across the room. So I now have
a statement on my one of my pages and I replied,
(37:53):
I replied, and you know it's bad. If I replied,
I say, if you get up in the room, you
know you're in trouble. Yes, I said, I know. I
encourage you to read the pinned post on the on
a Grace project facebook page explaining the impact of the
demand of free labor on women, particularly women of color.
(38:17):
If after you've read that you'd like to reconsider, feel
free to resend the form. But I'm kind of done
doing free work unless it is something that I choose,
and the truth is, I choose to work with families
who are in my shoes, and in order for me
to do that for free, some things have to have
(38:38):
revenue stream and I deserve to eat and maybe go
on vacation. There is nothing like being asked to do
free stuff all the time and then looking at the
people asking you and knowing that they're handsomely employed and
watching them on vacation and you can't go because you're
not being paid. I mean, that's just so tough. So
(38:59):
it's a lot, and I know that was probably more
than your listeners. No way, it is important, right, I mean,
this is again like these are not siloed issues. Women
and particularly women of color, are always asked to do
shit for free. It's true university university commencements, and I'm like, hey,
(39:20):
this is university commencements. I know there is a budget
I have to eat, and the idea that I have
to say that it's it's it can be disheartening. So
I try to focus on the people who actually come
back with a oh, I'm really sorry, we shouldn't have
done that, And that does happen, but I'm grateful in
(39:43):
the moment that we are safe. And Okay, yeah, I'm
grateful for that. Yeah, even if you didn't, as you said,
as you've said a few times, like I deserve to eat,
Like even if you had loads of money, you deserve
to be paid for your time. You don't have to
be in desperate need of the basics in order to
(40:05):
be respected and supported and paid to show up wherever
you're invited. And we go back to sovereignty, right, we
go back to personal choice and agency. Like if you
choose to do something for no pay, or for donations
or for some other thing, that is your choice. But
(40:27):
to have that expectation put on you, and there's shame
in that expectation too, right, Like, oh, if you really cared,
you would do this well, if you really cared about
the issue, you would find a way to actually pay
me for the time. If you think that I am
an expert worthy to speak to these people or speak
to your team, then the way that we do that
(40:48):
in this culture is to show our respects by paying
somebody for their work. There is another layer of shame
for me, and it's that one of the biggest misconceptions
of the Sandy Hook families was that we were all rich,
so we should all have donated everything to everything and
(41:12):
to have to be a person who says, actually, we're
kind of working people. You know, my husband's a professor,
and you know I'm a therapist, so you know, like
I had to get over in lots of therapy, this
feeling of failure I had having to ask for payment,
and she really helped me. I love my therapist so much.
(41:35):
Therapist see yes, yes, And I let me tell you
it was really something to find a therapist that was
trauma informed and also a therapist of color. That combination
has been life giving and she's really helped me with
a number of things, but number one valuing myself in
my time and not feeling that shame of I don't know,
(41:56):
owing people. Yeah, there was actually a a tweet that
you put up a while ago, and I'm going to
read it because it's awesome. I mean, all your tweets
are awesome. I feel like I could just like I
could sit here and just read all of your words.
That would be tool too, Okay, But I want to
go back to something we touched on a little bit,
which is grief is the long haul the same way
(42:17):
love is the long haul. And we're coming up on
the ten year anniversary of Sandy Hook. And I want
to read this this tweet because if I ever had
any doubt that you're my people, that I mean, I
never had any doubt about that. Okay, So here's the
build up. Okay, so you said I want someone to
do a ten year anniversary piece with me. That's more
(42:37):
than a tired tragedy to triumph narrative. Survivorship is complex,
let us tell you this, hopeful yes, and complex. There
are so many layers you're missing out on, always wanting
us to tell the same thing. That's just glorious. So
(42:58):
a couple of things I want to here as we
as we start rounding a corner. We're not done yet,
but as we start rounding a corner here too, to
the close of our time, like, can we talk about
that triumphant narrative because we know, hitting the ten year
milestone of Sandy Hook, that those triumph stories are going
(43:21):
to start arriving. What what if you could if you
could see us everybody on video, We're both just like
uh huh, yeah, yeah, that's coming. Because there's no there
are no words for the bullshit. There are no words
for the superficiality that that narrative demands. There's no words.
(43:46):
It's like trying to tell to I don't know. Listen,
we need more depths, we need more complexity, we need
a larger range of emotions. I'm not going to give that.
So what I did, and I'm so proud of myself,
is that I started working with a person. And I
also think we need to create spaces for survivors to
(44:10):
not need to join advocacy groups to get help. Right.
Typically the road is you have enough money to hire someone,
which I don't, or you join a survivor group and
they give you a benefit, you know, media train, you
do all these things. I don't want to do all that.
I don't feel like I need to wear anybody's clothes
or whatever. I lost my daughter. That is what qualifies
(44:32):
me for anything else, anything you have to give me.
So I got a person and I work with her,
and her name is Taylor, and I love her so much.
And Taylor asked me, what is it you want to
talk about. Let's have the conversation, So not just what
you don't want to do, but what do you want
to do? And after listening to me, she reflected back
and we had this awesome thing. And from that tweet,
(44:56):
because that's where that tweet was born, I actually got
to connect with a writer that I really love and
she's going to tell my story. So this is why
I say, when we resource people, then we can have
the stories that might change hearts. That's my way of
getting their resource me so I can tell you my story.
(45:17):
So someone sitting in Indiana can go damn, but don't
give me a menu I have been given. I live
in a world where I've been given scripts and told
this is what you're going to say at TV. I'm
a forty seven year old Puerto Rican woman. I want
you to know that one over like a leading balloon,
as it should for anyone. No survivor should ever be
handed a script. No survivor should ever be told what
(45:39):
to wear. No survivor should ever ever not get an
opportunity to tell their story and all of it, yeah,
in their own voice, in their own timing, in their
own way, because it is so awesome. And you know,
like if you think about what is the aim of
a media outlet or a news outlet who wants you
(46:02):
to tell a specific story, right, like yes, clicks advertising
but what they're looking for is emotional impact. Do you
know what has emotional impact? The fucking truth? Yes, yes,
No one needs that same tired tragedy to triumph narrative.
We know it's not true, we know it's not accurate.
We don't need trauma porn, we don't need transformation porn.
(46:23):
We need real, actual, true stories. And I love what
you said there. If we really want, you know, all
of this insistence on, like show the photos, all of
this stuff. What we're hoping is to move people. You
move people with the truth, like let people tell the
true story. I left my full time job a year
ago and I didn't know how we were going to
do it. And even though we personally may not have much,
(46:46):
I helped an assisted give out over one hundred thousand
dollars this year to charities close to my heart, and
mostly to the school that bears my daughter's name, which
we have supported to the tune of over seventy five
thousand dollars of that money. Tell you that, but that's
not everything, right, that's not everything. Let me tell you
(47:07):
more than that, because you're going to understand not just me,
but other people better and how to show up for
them in a meaningful way. So I don't know that
I've ever talked to a survivor that doesn't deeply care
about the group right our community, and I think that's
really beautiful about us. So I usually like to have answers,
(47:32):
and this season, I'm like, what is a question that
I'm either wrestling with or I don't know the answer to?
And for me, like, I'm trying to end all of
these conversations or stitch all of these conversations with questions
about hope. And I love that you just brought up
beauty because to me, those things are intertwined. You can
(47:53):
tell I don't know the answer, because I get very
choked knowing what you know and living what you live,
the whole story of it, not just what the headlines
want us to believe, not just what the sound bites
want us to believe, not not just the shallow end
of this pool. What does hope look like? For you?
(48:15):
For me, hope lives in every moment I reclaim my voice.
Hope lives in every moment. I can use my privilege
to make space for someone who has also lost, but
maybe has never gotten an opportunity to tell their story.
And I have so many of those moments. Hope comes
(48:39):
meeting people that say I get it and show me
they do, or meeting people that say I didn't get it,
but damn I heard that interview and I can do better,
and here's what I'm trying. Hope comes and every person
that is grieving that has reached out to me and
(49:00):
said thank you for speaking my truth too. It made
me more courageous in not feeling like I had to
just be one way. Hope comes in every moment that
my husband still thinks like I'm his sweetheart, you know.
(49:21):
Hope comes in every moment I look at my son
and he's excited about something. My son was eight when
his sister was murdered. He has every reason to not hope.
In this country, boys who look like him are murdered
with impunity more often than we report. And my son
still has hope and that gives me great hope when
(49:46):
I can't find it. So and if you ask him,
he would say, it's you, mom, and that is stunning, right.
But he wrote me a poem the other day and
it was basically like, sometimes you're too much, but I
love that you don't give up a freaking badge of honor.
(50:10):
That is a badge of honor. Yeah, I love that.
I love that hope is complex and messy because that
is what life is. Thank you for that, yes, ma'am. Now,
normally I close by asking my guest to tell people
where they can find you. And I don't want people
(50:31):
to find you if you don't want to be found.
So if I ask you to sort of leave everybody
with a message of where to go for more, what
to explore. If they have been moved by this conversation
and have had ideas and feelings sparked by listening, where
should they go with those sparks? What do you want
(50:53):
people to know so they're always welcome, you know, to
follow me on Twitter, you know, they can look at
my name. But if there's one thing I would want
from your listeners, I would want for them to hear
from me that I have had the blessing and opportunity
to meet with mothers all over the country black mothers,
(51:16):
Latino mothers, white mothers, rich mothers, poor mothers. And there
is no mother that grieves less or more because of
a circumstance. So if your heart grieves for me because
I lost a child and Sandy Hook. I would also
love for you to reach out to someone in your
own community, like you don't just have to reach out
(51:37):
to me right to make a difference, or to a
survivor from a community that has gotten a lot of
media coverage. It's actually so beautiful when you say, in
my neighborhood, oh wow, there's that group over there and
they have ten grieves, and reach out there or in
your family and in your community. If everybody goes to
(51:58):
get a person and does and just wait for the
highly visible person, then we can create communities of compassion
where people learn and grow and share and feel held
and seen. And that would be such a win for
me if in Anna's memory we built those things. All right,
my friend, I'm going to close us up for this,
(52:19):
and I will link to ways for you to find
my friend Melba in the show notes and I'll be
right back. Friends. Each week, I leave you with some
questions to carry with you until we meet again. This
(52:39):
season has a running theme to it, and it is
more obvious in some episodes than in others. But this
season is all about hope, finding it, losing it, redefining it,
fighting for it. Hope however you find it in these
weird personal and collective times. And you know what really
(53:00):
struck me in my conversation with Nelba is how ferocious
she is about protecting grieving people, how ferocious she is
about supporting people the way they want to be supported themselves,
and that there's hope there. There's hope in the fact
that people are moved by these stories, moved by these experiences,
(53:21):
and that people take these big, deep feelings that all
of this brings up, and you can choose to make
a difference out of those big feelings. I mean, Nelba
talks about it, I've seen it in my own life.
I've seen it in a lot of your stories that
you share with me. But we really can take our
deep feelings are deep human relatedness and connection that comes
(53:44):
up in these headlines, in these stories that we read,
in these tragedies that keep arriving and arriving and arriving.
There's something really hopeful in the fact that we can
take action to truly support the people at the center
of these events. As Nelba said, it's not just the
(54:06):
places that get the most media coverage that need our
care and attention. You can take action in your own
community in the world around you, in the places that
maybe don't get the kind of headline coverage that other
places do. So that's where I'm taking some hope from
this conversation with Nelba. What parts of this conversation stuck
with you today. What parts of this conversation made you
(54:30):
think or see things a little bit differently, or what
parts made you cry because a lot of them made
me cry. What parts made you feel empowered to do
something about the pain in the world, whether that is
your own pain, advocating for your own self being supported
and seen and resourced in the ways that you need,
(54:50):
or empowered to do something about the pain in the world.
Everybody's going to take something different from today's show, but
I do hope you find something to hold onto. As
you heard Nelby say, she is four survivors surviving, and
I'd love to know what surviving looks like or feels
like for you today. We'd love to hear from you
(55:13):
today or any day about what you've taken from this episode,
or really honestly about anything. Check out Refuge in Grief
on Instagram or here after pod on TikTok. Yes we
are on TikTok to see video clips from the show.
Although we do not have video of this one, you
will still see a clip on TikTok. Anyway, go over
(55:34):
there check it out. Leave your thoughts in the comments
on those posts that you find on social and be
sure to tag us when you share the show on
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We really do love to see where this show takes you.
If you want to tell us how today's show felt
for you, or you have a request or a question
(55:56):
for upcoming explorations of difficult topics, give us call three
two three six four three three seven six eight and
leave a voicemail. If you missed it, you can find
the number in the show notes or visit Megan divine
dot coo. If you'd rather send an email, you can
do that too, right on the website Megan Divine dot coo.
(56:17):
We want to hear from you. I want to hear
from you. This show, this world needs your voice. Together,
we can make things better even when they can't be
made right. You know how most people are going to
(56:38):
scan through their podcast app looking for a new thing
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description for Hereafter and think I don't want to listen
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that's where you come in your reviews of the show.
Let people know it really isn't all that bad. In
here we talk about heavy stuff, but it's in the
service of making things better for everyone. So everyone needs
(56:59):
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a review. Subscribe to the show, download episodes, and keep
on listening. Want more Hereafter. Grief education doesn't just belong
to end of life issues. As my dad says, daily
(57:19):
life is full of everyday grief that we don't call grief.
Learning how to talk about all that without cliches or
platitudes or simplistic dismissive statements is an important skill for everyone.
Find trainings, professional resources, and my best selling book, It's
Okay that You're Not Okay, plus The Guided Journal for
Grief at Megan Divine dot COO. Hereafter with Megan Divine
(57:44):
is written and produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer
is Amy Brown, co produced by Elizabeth Fosio Logistical and
social media support by Micah and edited by Houston Tilly.
Music provided by Wave Crush and occasional background noise provided
by Luna and the neighborhood leaf Blowers.