February 6, 2023 • 38 mins
What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry?
In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want?
All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly.
In this two-part episode we cover:
- What is the right amount of anger?
- Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful
- What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??)
- Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
- Is anger the most social emotion?
- How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
- Finding your best community by embracing your anger
About our guest:
Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in Time, the Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly
Additional resources
We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com
To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK. If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed.
Get in touch:
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, send in your questions, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right.
For more information, including clinical training and consulting, visit us at www.Megandevine.co
For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on IG, FB, TW, and @hereafterpod on TT
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s Okay That You're Not Okay and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are raised in a society that doesn't allow you
to believe you should be cared for. This is here After,
and I'm your host, Megan Divine, author of the best
selling book It's Okay that You're Not Okay? This week
on here After, Part two of Angerfest, otherwise known as
my conversation with best selling author of Saraya Shemali. More
(00:20):
on this absolute favorite hot topic coming up right after
this first break. Before we get started, one quick note.
While we cover a lot of emotional relational territory in
each at every episode, this show is not a substitute
(00:42):
for skilled support with a license mental health provider or
for professional supervision related to your work. Hey, friends, have
you listened to part one of this conversation with Sarria
Shmally yet? This is part two and we jump right
into our conversation progress now a little bit of a
setup in case it has been a bit since you
(01:04):
listen to part one, orrior go and rogue and jumping
in mid conversation without listening to part one. First, we
ended part one as Soriah and I were discussing the
media's insistence on happy endings, like even when you're doing
a podcast interview and how that insistence on a happy
ending or a high note effectively squashes being sad or mad.
(01:24):
We'd also been discussing the state of the world and
the long, long, long history of repressing anger, especially for women,
and part two we get into the concept of resilience,
but also we get into connection and related nous and joy.
(01:44):
I hinted at this last time in my part one introduction.
But friends, embracing your anger, voicing your rage is what
helps you find connection and community, especially with the people
who hairs passionately about the world as you do. Anger
unlocks a whole lot of joy. Okay, let's get back
(02:10):
to it. My conversation with Saya Shamali joining it already
in progress. I think this is the thing, is like,
we really really want a happy ending. We want there
to be a solution that means that we don't have
to get mad or sad or sad. Right, No sadness,
(02:30):
no madness, no, none of those things. And if you
keep showing me the state of the world, I Am
going to feel things and I'm going to have to
take action, and we can sort of come back full
circle with like, not only is there no valid way
for me to feel the feelings that I have when
I really look at the state of the world. But
I don't know what to do with it. I don't
(02:52):
know what the powerlessness like. I don't know what to
do with the rage and the sense of ingut to
us that is being lit up in me. I don't
know what to do with the overwhelming grief for what
has been and what is now like. I don't know
what to do with it, and I feel like for me,
(03:15):
for me, the answer is anger. Right for me, the
answer is is the action that that embodies? But I
don't know. I mean, is that so where I don't
even know my question is? And there's the right, But
there is one what you're saying because when when I
was writing, I've been writing about resilience for almost two
years now, and so much of what we think of
(03:36):
in our culture as resilience is just more sexist bullshit.
It's all about being strong and mentally tough and self
sufficient and autonomous, and you can't be any of those
things without completely exploiting the people around you, either the
people who are doing your emotional labor around your mental stoicism,
(03:59):
or the people who are clothing you and feeding you
and making sure that you can get to work and
be productive and all of those things. So the question
is what is it? Why? Why do we glorify a
type of strength? There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the notion
of strength, but we get to define what strength is.
And the way we define strength is particularly calibrated to
(04:23):
support this status quo system that we have. So how
do we dismantle it? And so I think that for
me two words became really relevant forbearance and endurance, which
established different standards for what it means to adapt, to
change and to live in the world in relation to
(04:44):
other people. Because I think that if you understand not
individual subjectivity is the core of what's important, but relational
well being as the core of what it's important, then
your standards will shift right, and they'll shift whether you're
(05:05):
talking about anger or grief or work. The whole system
shifts because all of a sudden you have to consider
what it means to be in relation, not just in
relation to another person, but for example, dismantling the divide
between the mind and the body, or thinking about how
(05:27):
we relate to nature. Everything is shifted by that, and
this is not new information. We understand that we live
in a pluryer reverse. There are many other ways to
be in the world, many other cultures who perceive the
world differently, whose language constructs the world differently. We've just
destroyed a lot of them, you know, We've actively engaged
(05:51):
and continue to engage in destroying other ways of knowing.
And that's because the only relationship that matters in this
worldview is one of dominance, and then you can maintain
that is through violence. Yeah, you know, it's not that
we don't have a relationship. It's that strength is tied
to violent domination. Yes, it's that there's only one channel acceptable,
(06:12):
and even that one is not acceptable for most of
the world. Because there's a line of yours that I
really like, our a quote of yours that that I
really like, or you said anger is the most social emotion.
I love this because we usually think of it only
in that one channel, only that one option of destructive
and separatists and all of these things. But what I
(06:35):
hear you describing is that it is allowing our full
relatedness that will allow us to engage in the world
as it is, and the world that we might allow
ourselves to hope could be well. And I think too.
We are raised in a society that doesn't allow you
to believe you should be cared for. Mm hmmm. We
have no rights to be cared for in our society,
(06:56):
which is just crazy. We have a right to be
cared for. It's essential to human cooperation and human thriving
and honestly to our survival at this point, right. But
in fact, the entire structure, the social contract of our
governance is that we don't need care, or that it's
weak to need care. It's totally weak. Maybe you're dependent,
(07:20):
your elite, your parasite, you want free stuff, all of that.
And not only is that corrosive to the social fabric,
it causes distrust, it's harmful to our relationships. But it's
a lie because in fact, the people who believe that
they are all of those things have baked in entitlements
in the system of governments that that we have, and
(07:42):
so it's an illusion and it's destructive. So what happens
if we stepped back and we said, what if we
didn't build a social contract around that radical and isolating
idea of an atomistic self and as self? No, no
one is without dependence throughout their lives. Literally, you're born dependent,
(08:06):
Chances are fairly good you're gonna die dependent. And many
people along the way need help at various points or
all of their lives. So in the end, it's also
a profoundly ablest to have the whole world built around
this imaginary personhood. And it goes against what we most want,
which is connection and relationship. Yeah, that's how we survive
(08:30):
and thrive. And you know, I think what's really striking
to me. I think people think that the opposite of
resilience is weakness or vulnerability, and I think the opposite
of resilience is loneliness. Oh right, If there's an opposite
to resilience, it is loneliness. And what we have right
now is a culture globally where men are profoundly lonely,
(08:52):
and in the English speaking world, which is basically an
Anglo world, where white boys and men are the most
lonely and society. Yeah, and look what they do with
that loneliness. And look what they do. They commit suicide
or they turn it against others, and so in fact,
their strength is their greatest weakness because that loneliness comes
(09:14):
from somewhere. It's an ideal it's a kind of a
compensatory masculinism in the society that's saying you have to
be strong and self sufficient, don't go for this feminizing
bullshit in the culture. That's like they're they're just more
than enough misogynists and assholes running around saying stuff like that,
and kids are listening to it, boys are listening to
(09:37):
I mean, it's just such a like complex, clusterfuck, such
a complex And that's where you go back to, it's overwhelming.
I'm just going to withdraw. Yeah, And I think this
is like, this is where it's important to come back to, like, Okay,
we have to be able to tell the truth, to
see clearly the situation at hand, and then wonder for ourselves,
(10:00):
what are my radical acts in the face of this,
Like caring for our own bodies, listening to our own bodies,
listening to our own related nous and our needs for connection.
Like basically, whatever the dominant culture says is a bad thing,
Like maybe we want to lean into that more. I
I go back to like several years ago, before the pandemic,
there was a signal. The health insurance outfit did a
(10:21):
study on loneliness and they found that loneliness was a
bigger public health risk than smoking. Just find fascinating because like,
what I haven't seen a lot related to that study
is like what comes out of that study is like,
let's change loneliness and not asking the first question, which
is why are people lonely? Why did they get so?
Like what is it? Right? I was just talking to
(10:44):
a friend of mine who was at ce S, the
you know, Technology Computer Extravaganza annual Giant Global Show, Las Vegas,
and he was describing a new technology which is an
immersive viewing experience basically with a headset, so it's kind
of a VR experience without having to wear the headset.
(11:05):
And it is a big screen. So imagine a giant
television in a living room and the person watching it,
Let's say they're watching a soccer game. The television monitor
will lock onto the eye movement of the person watching,
and the entire perspective of the game will take into
(11:27):
account where that person's eyes are, so the focal point
becomes where the person is looking, which makes this feel
much more immersive. And I burst out laughing, and I
was like, what happens when there's more than one person
in the room and my friend laughed and he was like,
what do you mean. I'm like, what happens when two
(11:48):
people are watching? What happens? And then we all burst
out laughing, And my husband said, it's a technology for
lonely white guys who can afford it, right, who want
to feel connected and part of what's happening. Yeah, oh gosh,
I don't believe technologies are problem. Technology is what we
(12:08):
make of it. But we're making shitty technology. Well, I
think we're making technology that presumes lonely, lonely white male,
like increasing that gaze. And the other thing is like
what I heard as you were describing that immersive thing
is like, we want you to be able to feel
like you're connected, but we're doing it within this realm
(12:32):
of disconnection, right, Like, what if we were trying to
address that primal human need for relatedness and connection by
allowing people to feel what they feel and giving us
structures and pathways to talk about what it's really like
to be here, Like you want cutting edge, baby, go
for relational cutting edge, not tech cutting edge. But you know,
(12:54):
this is interesting because I actually think that the you know,
the the Internet's economic model relies on our emotions It
relies on our effective relationships are effective sharing. It particularly
relies on the virility of negative emotions anger, shame, outrage, terror, fear.
(13:18):
That's its engine. That's why we have the problems we
have with information, truth, misinformation, disinformation, and so people are
seeking out those relationships, but in fact they're seeking them
out in some of the most destructive ways, because to
admit to a lot of those feelings in a interpersonal
(13:43):
context is foreclosed to them. Right, Like a man is
probably far less likely to look at his wife or
his child and say I'm scared shitless, that I'm losing relevance,
that I can't make money, that my country is my
country you anymore? Like all the white terror that we see,
all the despair. He can't say that to his loved
(14:07):
ones without feeling shame. But he can hop online and
share the experience of saying, we have to be strong,
we have to fight back with other people who are
feeling the same thing. It's a way to cope with
the grief and the fear and the despair in a
way that is yeah, in a way that is familiar
(14:28):
and sanctioned. Yeah, that's right, And embodied nous is important,
absolutely Oh my goodness. Yes, Like you have to be disembodied,
you have to be cut off from embodiment and the
animal nature of of being in these bodies in order
to other people like that. My undergrad thesis or my
psych thesis, was on the creation of tortures and how
(14:51):
do you do that? Right? But that that is that
is a subject for a different day, because I can
totally geek on that one. But like this idea that
when the only sanctioned and acceptable channel for anger, which
is a sense of injustice or violation or respect like
(15:11):
rights and being allowed to be who you are, all
of these things, like when the only channel for that
is destructive, then anger itself gets is kind of off
the table. Yeah, that's right. And for us what happens
is also due to socialization, you end up just hurting
yourself more than anything. Yeah. I don't necessarily believe this
(15:33):
is terribly accurate, but I remember studying psychology back in
the nineties and one of the things going around back
then was depression is anger turned inwards. And a lot
of people still say that. I'm not fully on board
with that one. I think there's a lot more complexity there,
but there is something that we lose when we don't
have other ways to express anger. Yeah, we've been talking
(16:05):
with best selling authors sayah shmali, let's get back to it.
Any repressed emotion finds its way into your body, and
so whether it's self harming, behavior's anxiety, depression, there are
lots of things that's been linked to cancer rates. It's
not that it's causing it, but they are very high
(16:25):
correlations between the incidents of repressed anger and autoim Like
all the illnesses we think of, particularly as women's illnesses,
they share this quality of repression of anger, and I
just don't think that's been studied or teased out well
enough or you know. But one of my other goals
in writing this was that women didn't get sicker, didn't
(16:47):
get more tired, could maybe consider what it means to
ask for help. And the danger there is that the
people you care for don't care. Like that's the best.
If you say, I'm really angry because I'm doing everything,
I feel taken for granted, I'm exhausted, I don't have
any sleep, I have no leisure time. Whatever you're saying, right,
(17:08):
I I can't make ends meet. You actually are saying,
can you help me work through this. But the person
you're you're talking to doesn't want to hear it, then
you're really in trouble. Yeah, then you have some big
choices you need to make. You have some big choices
you have to make. And it's interesting too, because one
of the studies I think that is most disturbing to
(17:29):
people who read the book sometimes is that in heterosexual couples,
women won't express anger as anger. They'll express it as
fear or sadness to compensate for the feelings that they
have that that feel wrong to them or cause them shame,
but in fact they're not wrong because men in those
couples they get angry at a woman for expressing anger
(17:51):
because they think she's breaking relationships. So instead of actually
listening to her and reciprocating or changing behavior or brainstorming,
they just shut it down. Yeah, you know, and so
instead of listening and saying, let me, let me understand
what you're going through, And that doesn't leave the woman
much recourse because in fact, what she's left with is
(18:12):
the awareness that this man that she's with doesn't care
what yeah, isn't willing to make changes to prioritize their needs.
That are expressed through that anger. Yeah. Yeah, and this
is the thing, Like the anger is the need for
change that something isn't working and I need to voice
that do something about it takes some action on my
(18:33):
own behalf or on the behalf of somebody or something
I care about, and systems don't like to change. Yeah,
it's very resistant. It's very hard. Hard. Yeah, change is hard.
And there's also it's all also tied up with you know,
if I say to my partner, like, I'm really angry
and this feels imbalanced and unfair, then they take that
(18:55):
in as a personal attack in some ways. I think
earlier you said, like we we we observe somebody else's
anger and give it back as shame or or name
it shame, like you think I'm bad, And then we're
right back where we started with. Like you know, it's
interesting because I've written a lot about me too as
a threat to men's identities, because I remember the years
(19:19):
building up to me to the sort of genealogy of
hashtags that led us to the moment where we could
do me too, and me too was global and so
many men I knew didn't matter, conservative, progressive, didn't matter,
we're just in denial. They're like, this must be an exaggeration.
It can't be that bad. What do you mean you
feel scared when you walk at night? Like some pretty
(19:42):
basic stuff, basic basic stuff, right? And I thought, these
are people who clearly care for the women around them,
So why why the denial? And in fact, I think
that it's pretty clear that me too was like a
punch to the gut. For two, primary are things that
men associate with being good people, providing and protecting. If
(20:05):
women are saying I want to provide for myself. I
don't want to go into a workplace where I'm harassed
and I can't get a promotion unless I have sex
with someone, they're like, I want to provide for myself,
that's thing one. And if women can provide for themselves,
and what are men supposed to do? And then the
thing two is you're not protecting me. You would have
to follow me even then you couldn't protect me. You
(20:27):
can't protect me on the way to school, in the bus,
in the bathroom, in the parking lot, in the office,
and the like wherever. So what is it to providing
and protecting the left M And I just think it's pretty.
It makes a lot of cognitive sense to say that's
just not happening, that's just not as bad as you're saying.
It's just that does not compute like that that the
(20:49):
that people are lying about their lived experience is the
most logical and acceptable answer to the situation at hand,
because it cannot possibly be that the world is as
you say it is, as if it is, Am I
a good person? I'd be a good person? How it
might be is there a place for me? And we
come back again to the root of everything we've talked
about is connection and relatedness and being able to be
(21:15):
soft and shift and connect and allow the pain of
the world to enter into that and enter into our
relationships so that we can get honestly, Like in my
my most Pollyanna moment is like, we can get what
we all long for, which is being seen and connected
and supported for who we truly are and valued. Like
(21:36):
we can do that when we tell the truth and
allow others to tell the truth about their own lives,
and when we let that stuff in Like to me,
that's the beautiful world, right, But it involves a lot
of messiness and a lot of reckoning and a lot
of outrage, all of those things, and and it involves
all those negative emotions nobody wants to deal with. Yeah,
(21:58):
that's really I think a lot of it, Like yeah,
and nobody likes to give up power? Who are we kidding? No?
And there's I mean, it's it's that shift of what
does power even mean? And I think we could probably
talk for ten more hours on on the concept of
power and what is true power. Actually, I like this
idea though, of like we've we've mentioned this several times
(22:18):
in our conversation, that we have one acceptable channel for
anger and it belongs to a very specific, well described
person in a very well described way, and it's not
available to anybody else. And one of the things that
you said was that there are many ways to be angry.
And I feel like, I feel like if we could
spend a couple of minutes talking about the ways that
(22:39):
we can be angry, because I'm not capable of always
ending on a happy ending, especially if it doesn't make sense,
and I want to I want to know what to
do with the anger, with the looking at our relationships
and the state of the world and all there is
to grieve and all there is to be angry, about
(23:01):
and I have an idea of what's next. So I
thought a lot about this, and the conclusion I came
to was really this idea that we have to stop
thinking of it as a negative emotion. That's thing one.
The thing too is okay. Well, once we decided this
(23:21):
isn't bad, it is what it is? What do I
learn from it? What is it that I want? How
can I make that happen. If I can't make it happen,
what next I have to accept something? Maybe I am
grieving because I understand this won't change. Like I had
a fifteen year old come up to me in a
high school one day after I've given a talk and
poor things. She was so distraught and she said, do
(23:42):
you think that patriarchy will end in my lifetime? She
was serious, She was so overwhelmed, and she she just
didn't know what to do, you know, And it was
a little heartbreaking because I couldn't say yes, you know.
But I think, then you think, well, what what can
I do? You know, what should I do? How do
(24:04):
I transcend this this grief? And that's an interesting way
to put it, right, transcending the grief, because you have
to go through the grief. I think, like there's there's
you don't put it aside, you don't climb over it.
It's you know, it's it's not a stool, you know.
And so I thought in the book, I thought, Okay, well,
(24:26):
the fact is it's a kind of an energy that
we have, and what can we do with it? Because
I've always found that in anger, I think, like grief
have come some of my dearest relationships. No activist feminist
movement that I've ever been part of did not start
(24:47):
with a woman getting angry. And there's so much humor
and so much vision, and so much creativity and so
much caring that goes into that anger, and the relationships
that are borne by it, the recognition that other women,
for example, and men, but in my experience it was
mainly women. The recognition that we share this anger was
(25:10):
a source of comfort and joy and happiness. And and
then the anger turns into something different because in fact,
it's informed a relationship that has this remarkable potential for
connection and change. So I do think that that's all true.
And I've been bowled over since I published this book
(25:30):
in two thousand eighteen by the share number of people
that have contacted me to share their artistic outputs m sculpture, poetry, writing, painting.
It's an infinite array of people saying, Okay, you know
(25:50):
what I feel this way, I need to do something
about it. I can't do X. I'm going to do why,
And out of their creativity m's connection comes community comes,
this sharing of experience that makes a new meaning for people.
And I think that goes back to what we said
earlier that it's not just I feel this. I don't
(26:13):
want to be destructive with it. I guess I won't
feel it at all. It's more like what how can
I connect? How can I express? How can I relate
with this? There's the list when you when I saw
that quote where you said there are so many ways
to be angry, you're like joyful anger, creative anger, political, artistic,
and social anger, Like there are so many things you
can do with your outrage. Yeah, I think so. And
(26:35):
for some people it's baking. For absolutely, I don't care
what you do with it, Like the it's it's be
in relationship with the with the reality of your of
your embodied experience, right like Yeah, for other people, it's
it's forming community organizations. For other oh, it's starting schools.
It doesn't matter what it is. You know why I
(26:58):
say it's it's it's social emotion, like we want to
call an angry girl or woman sad, because that is
an emotion of retreat. Anger is a forward emotion. It
in anger itself is hope because you can't be angry
if you don't hope that something could change. Yes, I
(27:19):
love that. There. I was going to quote you because
there's this great thing that you said that anger is
the expression of hope. And I and I do try
to end each episode here with what is hope? Knowing
what you know and living what you've lived. What does
hope look like for you right now? So? Can we
can we talk about that? Like a very bad day? Hey,
they happen. Man, I am hopeless a lot of the time,
(27:41):
which is why we're having these conversations because I think
for me, hope has always like used grammatically incorrectly, and
also it's not realistic, like I hope that things work
out for the best. No. Yeah, that's why. That's why
I've stopped thinking in terms of hope, and I've thought
forbearance and enduring and and not I thing, but endurance
(28:04):
as equanimity over time, endurance as a deeper understanding, and
a lot of my focus personally is on understanding the
way modern culture, modernity created a kind of temporal regime
that informs all of our lives, and that was disrupted
(28:25):
by COVID by the way, like COVID, COVID through the
cadence of modern life into total disarray, and some people
came out of that with I'm not going back. I'm
just not doing that again. I'm quitting, I'm slowing down,
I'm finding a new like whatever it is. They're like,
no way am I doing that again? But I think
(28:48):
a lot about the standards and what they mean for
notions like hope, And how do we think about time
when we think about hope, How do we think about
time when we think about resilient? How do we think
about the linear that the notion of linearity and grief? Right?
Our experiences are that there this linearity doesn't exist, So
(29:11):
why are we shaping our expectations around it? You know?
And so for me, hope is two steps forward, one
step back, step to the right, step to the left,
go up a little, maybe go down a little. It's
just not it's not this thing that's you know, an
arrow going back right. Yeah. I like hope as a
more a morphous living thing that we find ways to
(29:36):
express or find ways to dismiss depending on the day.
We didn't think about we didn't talk about this at all.
But there's this sort of French postmodern philosophers late twentieth
century to Losing Guitari who whose theories of kind of
rhizomatic knowledge and thinking they kind of go through loops
(29:57):
of being criticized and then having a surgeons. But what
I'm seeing that's really funny just in the culture in
the last several years is this fascination with mushrooms and
my celia, and it really aligned so closely with their
thinking about how life works. And we have what they
called our our boreal thinking and knowing there's you know,
(30:19):
we're rooted in the ground and there's a central core
and then things branch off and their logical endpoints they're like,
funk that that's just not right right. So, in fact,
it's really helped me to think of hope in that
way as riz ometic, Yeah, because you don't know where
it begins. Incological, mycological. Great great name for something that's mycological.
(30:43):
But but definitely this notion that you can begin and
end anywhere, and that you don't know, and that things
move in every direction at all times. I just like that.
It just resonates more. I love that. I think I'm
gonna reflect on that for a while. Mike A lot. Hope,
what would what would mushroom based mycology? Hope, because I
(31:05):
you know, I was a student of Joanna Macy for
a long time, and I whenever I was temporarily stuck,
I would go with her thinking like a mountain, right,
thinking in geologic time, for pacing and all of these things,
thinking like a mountain. But I think I think my new,
my new form of that is going to be thinking
like a mycological organism. I don't know if it's still true,
(31:27):
but the last time I went looking for it, the
largest known biological organism in the world, is it my
ce lamb? It's a it's an It was either I
think there was a race for a while between a
stand of aspens or a single mushroom system that was
like nine miles. The last I read it was the mushroom.
I don't know, I'll go back. Yeah, I think there
(31:49):
there was some scientific there was some branching there that
the aspens didn't really count as a single organism in
the same way that anyway full nerd Um and the
ways that it relates to what we've been talking about
with like, I love this. I love that there is
no entry point, there is no exit point. Start where
you are, and if you don't like where you are
(32:09):
in your understandings of how anger lives in you and
what it means to claim that anger and to claim
whatever hope looks like for you, Like I don't know,
pick a different fruiting body on the mushroom system and
explore that one, and you may be surprised, you know,
because I think if we're rigid about it. Honestly, it's
to me in the end, it's how cognitively flexible can
(32:29):
you allow yourself to be? Because you just don't know.
I'd never know. I'm like, oh, well, that was surprising.
What Why was it surprising to me? What surprised me
about that? Perfect variants or place curiosity is really a
good and self compassion. I've never been one for the
self care industry. I think it's morbi know, it's part
(32:52):
of capitalism, sure, part of capitalism. And also it's so
easy for neoliberalism to take the language and self compassion
and just con turn it into something very unhelpful. But
I do actually think that until we understand how are
ourselves are formed by our cultures, it's hard to be forgiving,
(33:12):
forgiving of the time we need. It, very hard to
take time, yeah, take time without that added codissle of
take care of yourself, care for yourself so that you
can come back and be productive. Right, So it's it's
separating that and realizing that listening to yourself and caring
for yourself and taking care yeah, is an end stop
(33:35):
in and of itself. You don't do that, so that
X Y and I don't know if you can see
a Tria Hershey's the NAP ministry, Yes, love it. So
that's more or less where we came to write, like
she exactly that's what she's talking about. And in her case,
she's so clear, she's like, you can't talk about rest
and self compassion without talking about white supremacy. But you
(33:58):
can't do it, so don't do it right, Like if
you can't say the whole thing, the whole system, then
like you're missing the point of it. You do it
and you don't say it. You're part of the problem,
not the solution, you know, And that just requires people
to sit quietly with their anger, with their grief, with
their discomfort, with their shame. It's not easy for anyone
(34:20):
know it truly, truly isn't and and conversations about it,
naming it Like for me, that is the power of
this work is in a way, we're creating structures for
people to explore and experiment with by naming what is
actually happening, and it's it's giving people options. And I'm
so glad that you and I got the chance to
(34:40):
talk about the stuff together. Now obviously in the show notes,
I'm god a link to your ted talk. I'm a
link to your book. Is there anything else you want
people to know where to look for you when your
next book is coming out? Thank you? I have I
have a website that's just my name and then dot com,
sal dot com. There are some other books there if
people are interested. No, thank you. I think that's good, excellent, Okay,
(35:02):
we are going to put that in the show notes. Everybody, Sriah,
thank you so much for being here. Stay with us, everybody.
We will be right back with your questions to carry
with you, or right after this each week I leave
(35:25):
you with some questions to carry with you until we
meet again. And here's the thing for me in this
episode parts one and two, It's amazing just how hopeful
it is to connect with other angry people. You know
what I mean? As Soriah said, anger is a social
emotion and connecting with people who feel as passionate about
(35:48):
the state of the world as you do. That's the
kind of community that I want to be part of.
What about you? What's stuck with you today? From this
conversation on anger and grief and joy and connection? What
parts made you think or cry or feel even just
the edge of your own anger brewing and waiting to
(36:12):
be free. Everybody's going to take something different from today's show,
but I do hope you find something to hold onto.
Check out Refuge and Grief on Instagram or here after
pod on TikTok to see video clips from the show,
and please leave your thoughts in the comments on those posts.
Everybody's got something to say about anger and I want
to hear it. Be sure to tag us in your
(36:34):
conversation starting posts on your own social media use the
hashtag here after pod on all the platforms. We love
to see where this show takes you, and remember to
subscribe and leave a review. Reviews help more than you
know they're not. Just like I like to see reviews
of how much you love the show, but it also
(36:55):
helps potential listeners know that this is a pretty rad
show to listen to. Anyway, if you want to tell
us how today's show felt for you, or you have
a request or a question for upcoming explorations of difficult things,
send us an email. You can do that right on
the website. Megan Divine dot c O. We want to
hear from you. I want to hear from you. This show,
(37:18):
this world needs your voice. Together, we can make things
better even when they can't be made right. Want more Hereafter.
Grief education doesn't just belong to end of life issues.
Life is full of losses, from everyday disappointments to events
that clearly divide life into before and after. Learning how
(37:41):
to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or
simplistic think positive posters is an important skill for everyone.
Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every human trying
to make their way in the world. After something goes
horribly wrong at Megan Divine dot c. O here After
with Mega Divine is written and produced by me Megan Divine.
(38:03):
Executive producer is Amy Brown, who produced by Tonya Juhaus
and Elizabeth Fozio, edited by Houston Tilly, and studio support
by Chris Yuron. Music provided by Wave Crush
We are raised in a society that doesn't allow you
to believe you should be cared for. This is here After,
and I'm your host, Megan Divine, author of the best
selling book It's Okay that You're Not Okay? This week
on here After, Part two of Angerfest, otherwise known as
my conversation with best selling author of Saraya Shemali. More
(00:20):
on this absolute favorite hot topic coming up right after
this first break. Before we get started, one quick note.
While we cover a lot of emotional relational territory in
each at every episode, this show is not a substitute
(00:42):
for skilled support with a license mental health provider or
for professional supervision related to your work. Hey, friends, have
you listened to part one of this conversation with Sarria
Shmally yet? This is part two and we jump right
into our conversation progress now a little bit of a
setup in case it has been a bit since you
(01:04):
listen to part one, orrior go and rogue and jumping
in mid conversation without listening to part one. First, we
ended part one as Soriah and I were discussing the
media's insistence on happy endings, like even when you're doing
a podcast interview and how that insistence on a happy
ending or a high note effectively squashes being sad or mad.
(01:24):
We'd also been discussing the state of the world and
the long, long, long history of repressing anger, especially for women,
and part two we get into the concept of resilience,
but also we get into connection and related nous and joy.
(01:44):
I hinted at this last time in my part one introduction.
But friends, embracing your anger, voicing your rage is what
helps you find connection and community, especially with the people
who hairs passionately about the world as you do. Anger
unlocks a whole lot of joy. Okay, let's get back
(02:10):
to it. My conversation with Saya Shamali joining it already
in progress. I think this is the thing, is like,
we really really want a happy ending. We want there
to be a solution that means that we don't have
to get mad or sad or sad. Right, No sadness,
(02:30):
no madness, no, none of those things. And if you
keep showing me the state of the world, I Am
going to feel things and I'm going to have to
take action, and we can sort of come back full
circle with like, not only is there no valid way
for me to feel the feelings that I have when
I really look at the state of the world. But
I don't know what to do with it. I don't
(02:52):
know what the powerlessness like. I don't know what to
do with the rage and the sense of ingut to
us that is being lit up in me. I don't
know what to do with the overwhelming grief for what
has been and what is now like. I don't know
what to do with it, and I feel like for me,
(03:15):
for me, the answer is anger. Right for me, the
answer is is the action that that embodies? But I
don't know. I mean, is that so where I don't
even know my question is? And there's the right, But
there is one what you're saying because when when I
was writing, I've been writing about resilience for almost two
years now, and so much of what we think of
(03:36):
in our culture as resilience is just more sexist bullshit.
It's all about being strong and mentally tough and self
sufficient and autonomous, and you can't be any of those
things without completely exploiting the people around you, either the
people who are doing your emotional labor around your mental stoicism,
(03:59):
or the people who are clothing you and feeding you
and making sure that you can get to work and
be productive and all of those things. So the question
is what is it? Why? Why do we glorify a
type of strength? There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the notion
of strength, but we get to define what strength is.
And the way we define strength is particularly calibrated to
(04:23):
support this status quo system that we have. So how
do we dismantle it? And so I think that for
me two words became really relevant forbearance and endurance, which
established different standards for what it means to adapt, to
change and to live in the world in relation to
(04:44):
other people. Because I think that if you understand not
individual subjectivity is the core of what's important, but relational
well being as the core of what it's important, then
your standards will shift right, and they'll shift whether you're
(05:05):
talking about anger or grief or work. The whole system
shifts because all of a sudden you have to consider
what it means to be in relation, not just in
relation to another person, but for example, dismantling the divide
between the mind and the body, or thinking about how
(05:27):
we relate to nature. Everything is shifted by that, and
this is not new information. We understand that we live
in a pluryer reverse. There are many other ways to
be in the world, many other cultures who perceive the
world differently, whose language constructs the world differently. We've just
destroyed a lot of them, you know, We've actively engaged
(05:51):
and continue to engage in destroying other ways of knowing.
And that's because the only relationship that matters in this
worldview is one of dominance, and then you can maintain
that is through violence. Yeah, you know, it's not that
we don't have a relationship. It's that strength is tied
to violent domination. Yes, it's that there's only one channel acceptable,
(06:12):
and even that one is not acceptable for most of
the world. Because there's a line of yours that I
really like, our a quote of yours that that I
really like, or you said anger is the most social emotion.
I love this because we usually think of it only
in that one channel, only that one option of destructive
and separatists and all of these things. But what I
(06:35):
hear you describing is that it is allowing our full
relatedness that will allow us to engage in the world
as it is, and the world that we might allow
ourselves to hope could be well. And I think too.
We are raised in a society that doesn't allow you
to believe you should be cared for. Mm hmmm. We
have no rights to be cared for in our society,
(06:56):
which is just crazy. We have a right to be
cared for. It's essential to human cooperation and human thriving
and honestly to our survival at this point, right. But
in fact, the entire structure, the social contract of our
governance is that we don't need care, or that it's
weak to need care. It's totally weak. Maybe you're dependent,
(07:20):
your elite, your parasite, you want free stuff, all of that.
And not only is that corrosive to the social fabric,
it causes distrust, it's harmful to our relationships. But it's
a lie because in fact, the people who believe that
they are all of those things have baked in entitlements
in the system of governments that that we have, and
(07:42):
so it's an illusion and it's destructive. So what happens
if we stepped back and we said, what if we
didn't build a social contract around that radical and isolating
idea of an atomistic self and as self? No, no
one is without dependence throughout their lives. Literally, you're born dependent,
(08:06):
Chances are fairly good you're gonna die dependent. And many
people along the way need help at various points or
all of their lives. So in the end, it's also
a profoundly ablest to have the whole world built around
this imaginary personhood. And it goes against what we most want,
which is connection and relationship. Yeah, that's how we survive
(08:30):
and thrive. And you know, I think what's really striking
to me. I think people think that the opposite of
resilience is weakness or vulnerability, and I think the opposite
of resilience is loneliness. Oh right, If there's an opposite
to resilience, it is loneliness. And what we have right
now is a culture globally where men are profoundly lonely,
(08:52):
and in the English speaking world, which is basically an
Anglo world, where white boys and men are the most
lonely and society. Yeah, and look what they do with
that loneliness. And look what they do. They commit suicide
or they turn it against others, and so in fact,
their strength is their greatest weakness because that loneliness comes
(09:14):
from somewhere. It's an ideal it's a kind of a
compensatory masculinism in the society that's saying you have to
be strong and self sufficient, don't go for this feminizing
bullshit in the culture. That's like they're they're just more
than enough misogynists and assholes running around saying stuff like that,
and kids are listening to it, boys are listening to
(09:37):
I mean, it's just such a like complex, clusterfuck, such
a complex And that's where you go back to, it's overwhelming.
I'm just going to withdraw. Yeah, And I think this
is like, this is where it's important to come back to, like, Okay,
we have to be able to tell the truth, to
see clearly the situation at hand, and then wonder for ourselves,
(10:00):
what are my radical acts in the face of this,
Like caring for our own bodies, listening to our own bodies,
listening to our own related nous and our needs for connection.
Like basically, whatever the dominant culture says is a bad thing,
Like maybe we want to lean into that more. I
I go back to like several years ago, before the pandemic,
there was a signal. The health insurance outfit did a
(10:21):
study on loneliness and they found that loneliness was a
bigger public health risk than smoking. Just find fascinating because like,
what I haven't seen a lot related to that study
is like what comes out of that study is like,
let's change loneliness and not asking the first question, which
is why are people lonely? Why did they get so?
Like what is it? Right? I was just talking to
(10:44):
a friend of mine who was at ce S, the
you know, Technology Computer Extravaganza annual Giant Global Show, Las Vegas,
and he was describing a new technology which is an
immersive viewing experience basically with a headset, so it's kind
of a VR experience without having to wear the headset.
(11:05):
And it is a big screen. So imagine a giant
television in a living room and the person watching it,
Let's say they're watching a soccer game. The television monitor
will lock onto the eye movement of the person watching,
and the entire perspective of the game will take into
(11:27):
account where that person's eyes are, so the focal point
becomes where the person is looking, which makes this feel
much more immersive. And I burst out laughing, and I
was like, what happens when there's more than one person
in the room and my friend laughed and he was like,
what do you mean. I'm like, what happens when two
(11:48):
people are watching? What happens? And then we all burst
out laughing, And my husband said, it's a technology for
lonely white guys who can afford it, right, who want
to feel connected and part of what's happening. Yeah, oh gosh,
I don't believe technologies are problem. Technology is what we
(12:08):
make of it. But we're making shitty technology. Well, I
think we're making technology that presumes lonely, lonely white male,
like increasing that gaze. And the other thing is like
what I heard as you were describing that immersive thing
is like, we want you to be able to feel
like you're connected, but we're doing it within this realm
(12:32):
of disconnection, right, Like, what if we were trying to
address that primal human need for relatedness and connection by
allowing people to feel what they feel and giving us
structures and pathways to talk about what it's really like
to be here, Like you want cutting edge, baby, go
for relational cutting edge, not tech cutting edge. But you know,
(12:54):
this is interesting because I actually think that the you know,
the the Internet's economic model relies on our emotions It
relies on our effective relationships are effective sharing. It particularly
relies on the virility of negative emotions anger, shame, outrage, terror, fear.
(13:18):
That's its engine. That's why we have the problems we
have with information, truth, misinformation, disinformation, and so people are
seeking out those relationships, but in fact they're seeking them
out in some of the most destructive ways, because to
admit to a lot of those feelings in a interpersonal
(13:43):
context is foreclosed to them. Right, Like a man is
probably far less likely to look at his wife or
his child and say I'm scared shitless, that I'm losing relevance,
that I can't make money, that my country is my
country you anymore? Like all the white terror that we see,
all the despair. He can't say that to his loved
(14:07):
ones without feeling shame. But he can hop online and
share the experience of saying, we have to be strong,
we have to fight back with other people who are
feeling the same thing. It's a way to cope with
the grief and the fear and the despair in a
way that is yeah, in a way that is familiar
(14:28):
and sanctioned. Yeah, that's right, And embodied nous is important,
absolutely Oh my goodness. Yes, Like you have to be disembodied,
you have to be cut off from embodiment and the
animal nature of of being in these bodies in order
to other people like that. My undergrad thesis or my
psych thesis, was on the creation of tortures and how
(14:51):
do you do that? Right? But that that is that
is a subject for a different day, because I can
totally geek on that one. But like this idea that
when the only sanctioned and acceptable channel for anger, which
is a sense of injustice or violation or respect like
(15:11):
rights and being allowed to be who you are, all
of these things, like when the only channel for that
is destructive, then anger itself gets is kind of off
the table. Yeah, that's right. And for us what happens
is also due to socialization, you end up just hurting
yourself more than anything. Yeah. I don't necessarily believe this
(15:33):
is terribly accurate, but I remember studying psychology back in
the nineties and one of the things going around back
then was depression is anger turned inwards. And a lot
of people still say that. I'm not fully on board
with that one. I think there's a lot more complexity there,
but there is something that we lose when we don't
have other ways to express anger. Yeah, we've been talking
(16:05):
with best selling authors sayah shmali, let's get back to it.
Any repressed emotion finds its way into your body, and
so whether it's self harming, behavior's anxiety, depression, there are
lots of things that's been linked to cancer rates. It's
not that it's causing it, but they are very high
(16:25):
correlations between the incidents of repressed anger and autoim Like
all the illnesses we think of, particularly as women's illnesses,
they share this quality of repression of anger, and I
just don't think that's been studied or teased out well
enough or you know. But one of my other goals
in writing this was that women didn't get sicker, didn't
(16:47):
get more tired, could maybe consider what it means to
ask for help. And the danger there is that the
people you care for don't care. Like that's the best.
If you say, I'm really angry because I'm doing everything,
I feel taken for granted, I'm exhausted, I don't have
any sleep, I have no leisure time. Whatever you're saying, right,
(17:08):
I I can't make ends meet. You actually are saying,
can you help me work through this. But the person
you're you're talking to doesn't want to hear it, then
you're really in trouble. Yeah, then you have some big
choices you need to make. You have some big choices
you have to make. And it's interesting too, because one
of the studies I think that is most disturbing to
(17:29):
people who read the book sometimes is that in heterosexual couples,
women won't express anger as anger. They'll express it as
fear or sadness to compensate for the feelings that they
have that that feel wrong to them or cause them shame,
but in fact they're not wrong because men in those
couples they get angry at a woman for expressing anger
(17:51):
because they think she's breaking relationships. So instead of actually
listening to her and reciprocating or changing behavior or brainstorming,
they just shut it down. Yeah, you know, and so
instead of listening and saying, let me, let me understand
what you're going through, And that doesn't leave the woman
much recourse because in fact, what she's left with is
(18:12):
the awareness that this man that she's with doesn't care
what yeah, isn't willing to make changes to prioritize their needs.
That are expressed through that anger. Yeah. Yeah, and this
is the thing, Like the anger is the need for
change that something isn't working and I need to voice
that do something about it takes some action on my
(18:33):
own behalf or on the behalf of somebody or something
I care about, and systems don't like to change. Yeah,
it's very resistant. It's very hard. Hard. Yeah, change is hard.
And there's also it's all also tied up with you know,
if I say to my partner, like, I'm really angry
and this feels imbalanced and unfair, then they take that
(18:55):
in as a personal attack in some ways. I think
earlier you said, like we we we observe somebody else's
anger and give it back as shame or or name
it shame, like you think I'm bad, And then we're
right back where we started with. Like you know, it's
interesting because I've written a lot about me too as
a threat to men's identities, because I remember the years
(19:19):
building up to me to the sort of genealogy of
hashtags that led us to the moment where we could
do me too, and me too was global and so
many men I knew didn't matter, conservative, progressive, didn't matter,
we're just in denial. They're like, this must be an exaggeration.
It can't be that bad. What do you mean you
feel scared when you walk at night? Like some pretty
(19:42):
basic stuff, basic basic stuff, right? And I thought, these
are people who clearly care for the women around them,
So why why the denial? And in fact, I think
that it's pretty clear that me too was like a
punch to the gut. For two, primary are things that
men associate with being good people, providing and protecting. If
(20:05):
women are saying I want to provide for myself. I
don't want to go into a workplace where I'm harassed
and I can't get a promotion unless I have sex
with someone, they're like, I want to provide for myself,
that's thing one. And if women can provide for themselves,
and what are men supposed to do? And then the
thing two is you're not protecting me. You would have
to follow me even then you couldn't protect me. You
(20:27):
can't protect me on the way to school, in the bus,
in the bathroom, in the parking lot, in the office,
and the like wherever. So what is it to providing
and protecting the left M And I just think it's pretty.
It makes a lot of cognitive sense to say that's
just not happening, that's just not as bad as you're saying.
It's just that does not compute like that that the
(20:49):
that people are lying about their lived experience is the
most logical and acceptable answer to the situation at hand,
because it cannot possibly be that the world is as
you say it is, as if it is, Am I
a good person? I'd be a good person? How it
might be is there a place for me? And we
come back again to the root of everything we've talked
about is connection and relatedness and being able to be
(21:15):
soft and shift and connect and allow the pain of
the world to enter into that and enter into our
relationships so that we can get honestly, Like in my
my most Pollyanna moment is like, we can get what
we all long for, which is being seen and connected
and supported for who we truly are and valued. Like
(21:36):
we can do that when we tell the truth and
allow others to tell the truth about their own lives,
and when we let that stuff in Like to me,
that's the beautiful world, right, But it involves a lot
of messiness and a lot of reckoning and a lot
of outrage, all of those things, and and it involves
all those negative emotions nobody wants to deal with. Yeah,
(21:58):
that's really I think a lot of it, Like yeah,
and nobody likes to give up power? Who are we kidding? No?
And there's I mean, it's it's that shift of what
does power even mean? And I think we could probably
talk for ten more hours on on the concept of
power and what is true power. Actually, I like this
idea though, of like we've we've mentioned this several times
(22:18):
in our conversation, that we have one acceptable channel for
anger and it belongs to a very specific, well described
person in a very well described way, and it's not
available to anybody else. And one of the things that
you said was that there are many ways to be angry.
And I feel like, I feel like if we could
spend a couple of minutes talking about the ways that
(22:39):
we can be angry, because I'm not capable of always
ending on a happy ending, especially if it doesn't make sense,
and I want to I want to know what to
do with the anger, with the looking at our relationships
and the state of the world and all there is
to grieve and all there is to be angry, about
(23:01):
and I have an idea of what's next. So I
thought a lot about this, and the conclusion I came
to was really this idea that we have to stop
thinking of it as a negative emotion. That's thing one.
The thing too is okay. Well, once we decided this
(23:21):
isn't bad, it is what it is? What do I
learn from it? What is it that I want? How
can I make that happen. If I can't make it happen,
what next I have to accept something? Maybe I am
grieving because I understand this won't change. Like I had
a fifteen year old come up to me in a
high school one day after I've given a talk and
poor things. She was so distraught and she said, do
(23:42):
you think that patriarchy will end in my lifetime? She
was serious, She was so overwhelmed, and she she just
didn't know what to do, you know, And it was
a little heartbreaking because I couldn't say yes, you know.
But I think, then you think, well, what what can
I do? You know, what should I do? How do
(24:04):
I transcend this this grief? And that's an interesting way
to put it, right, transcending the grief, because you have
to go through the grief. I think, like there's there's
you don't put it aside, you don't climb over it.
It's you know, it's it's not a stool, you know.
And so I thought in the book, I thought, Okay, well,
(24:26):
the fact is it's a kind of an energy that
we have, and what can we do with it? Because
I've always found that in anger, I think, like grief
have come some of my dearest relationships. No activist feminist
movement that I've ever been part of did not start
(24:47):
with a woman getting angry. And there's so much humor
and so much vision, and so much creativity and so
much caring that goes into that anger, and the relationships
that are borne by it, the recognition that other women,
for example, and men, but in my experience it was
mainly women. The recognition that we share this anger was
(25:10):
a source of comfort and joy and happiness. And and
then the anger turns into something different because in fact,
it's informed a relationship that has this remarkable potential for
connection and change. So I do think that that's all true.
And I've been bowled over since I published this book
(25:30):
in two thousand eighteen by the share number of people
that have contacted me to share their artistic outputs m sculpture, poetry, writing, painting.
It's an infinite array of people saying, Okay, you know
(25:50):
what I feel this way, I need to do something
about it. I can't do X. I'm going to do why,
And out of their creativity m's connection comes community comes,
this sharing of experience that makes a new meaning for people.
And I think that goes back to what we said
earlier that it's not just I feel this. I don't
(26:13):
want to be destructive with it. I guess I won't
feel it at all. It's more like what how can
I connect? How can I express? How can I relate
with this? There's the list when you when I saw
that quote where you said there are so many ways
to be angry, you're like joyful anger, creative anger, political, artistic,
and social anger, Like there are so many things you
can do with your outrage. Yeah, I think so. And
(26:35):
for some people it's baking. For absolutely, I don't care
what you do with it, Like the it's it's be
in relationship with the with the reality of your of
your embodied experience, right like Yeah, for other people, it's
it's forming community organizations. For other oh, it's starting schools.
It doesn't matter what it is. You know why I
(26:58):
say it's it's it's social emotion, like we want to
call an angry girl or woman sad, because that is
an emotion of retreat. Anger is a forward emotion. It
in anger itself is hope because you can't be angry
if you don't hope that something could change. Yes, I
(27:19):
love that. There. I was going to quote you because
there's this great thing that you said that anger is
the expression of hope. And I and I do try
to end each episode here with what is hope? Knowing
what you know and living what you've lived. What does
hope look like for you right now? So? Can we
can we talk about that? Like a very bad day? Hey,
they happen. Man, I am hopeless a lot of the time,
(27:41):
which is why we're having these conversations because I think
for me, hope has always like used grammatically incorrectly, and
also it's not realistic, like I hope that things work
out for the best. No. Yeah, that's why. That's why
I've stopped thinking in terms of hope, and I've thought
forbearance and enduring and and not I thing, but endurance
(28:04):
as equanimity over time, endurance as a deeper understanding, and
a lot of my focus personally is on understanding the
way modern culture, modernity created a kind of temporal regime
that informs all of our lives, and that was disrupted
(28:25):
by COVID by the way, like COVID, COVID through the
cadence of modern life into total disarray, and some people
came out of that with I'm not going back. I'm
just not doing that again. I'm quitting, I'm slowing down,
I'm finding a new like whatever it is. They're like,
no way am I doing that again? But I think
(28:48):
a lot about the standards and what they mean for
notions like hope, And how do we think about time
when we think about hope, How do we think about
time when we think about resilient? How do we think
about the linear that the notion of linearity and grief? Right?
Our experiences are that there this linearity doesn't exist, So
(29:11):
why are we shaping our expectations around it? You know?
And so for me, hope is two steps forward, one
step back, step to the right, step to the left,
go up a little, maybe go down a little. It's
just not it's not this thing that's you know, an
arrow going back right. Yeah. I like hope as a
more a morphous living thing that we find ways to
(29:36):
express or find ways to dismiss depending on the day.
We didn't think about we didn't talk about this at all.
But there's this sort of French postmodern philosophers late twentieth
century to Losing Guitari who whose theories of kind of
rhizomatic knowledge and thinking they kind of go through loops
(29:57):
of being criticized and then having a surgeons. But what
I'm seeing that's really funny just in the culture in
the last several years is this fascination with mushrooms and
my celia, and it really aligned so closely with their
thinking about how life works. And we have what they
called our our boreal thinking and knowing there's you know,
(30:19):
we're rooted in the ground and there's a central core
and then things branch off and their logical endpoints they're like,
funk that that's just not right right. So, in fact,
it's really helped me to think of hope in that
way as riz ometic, Yeah, because you don't know where
it begins. Incological, mycological. Great great name for something that's mycological.
(30:43):
But but definitely this notion that you can begin and
end anywhere, and that you don't know, and that things
move in every direction at all times. I just like that.
It just resonates more. I love that. I think I'm
gonna reflect on that for a while. Mike A lot. Hope,
what would what would mushroom based mycology? Hope, because I
(31:05):
you know, I was a student of Joanna Macy for
a long time, and I whenever I was temporarily stuck,
I would go with her thinking like a mountain, right,
thinking in geologic time, for pacing and all of these things,
thinking like a mountain. But I think I think my new,
my new form of that is going to be thinking
like a mycological organism. I don't know if it's still true,
(31:27):
but the last time I went looking for it, the
largest known biological organism in the world, is it my
ce lamb? It's a it's an It was either I
think there was a race for a while between a
stand of aspens or a single mushroom system that was
like nine miles. The last I read it was the mushroom.
I don't know, I'll go back. Yeah, I think there
(31:49):
there was some scientific there was some branching there that
the aspens didn't really count as a single organism in
the same way that anyway full nerd Um and the
ways that it relates to what we've been talking about
with like, I love this. I love that there is
no entry point, there is no exit point. Start where
you are, and if you don't like where you are
(32:09):
in your understandings of how anger lives in you and
what it means to claim that anger and to claim
whatever hope looks like for you, Like I don't know,
pick a different fruiting body on the mushroom system and
explore that one, and you may be surprised, you know,
because I think if we're rigid about it. Honestly, it's
to me in the end, it's how cognitively flexible can
(32:29):
you allow yourself to be? Because you just don't know.
I'd never know. I'm like, oh, well, that was surprising.
What Why was it surprising to me? What surprised me
about that? Perfect variants or place curiosity is really a
good and self compassion. I've never been one for the
self care industry. I think it's morbi know, it's part
(32:52):
of capitalism, sure, part of capitalism. And also it's so
easy for neoliberalism to take the language and self compassion
and just con turn it into something very unhelpful. But
I do actually think that until we understand how are
ourselves are formed by our cultures, it's hard to be forgiving,
(33:12):
forgiving of the time we need. It, very hard to
take time, yeah, take time without that added codissle of
take care of yourself, care for yourself so that you
can come back and be productive. Right, So it's it's
separating that and realizing that listening to yourself and caring
for yourself and taking care yeah, is an end stop
(33:35):
in and of itself. You don't do that, so that
X Y and I don't know if you can see
a Tria Hershey's the NAP ministry, Yes, love it. So
that's more or less where we came to write, like
she exactly that's what she's talking about. And in her case,
she's so clear, she's like, you can't talk about rest
and self compassion without talking about white supremacy. But you
(33:58):
can't do it, so don't do it right, Like if
you can't say the whole thing, the whole system, then
like you're missing the point of it. You do it
and you don't say it. You're part of the problem,
not the solution, you know, And that just requires people
to sit quietly with their anger, with their grief, with
their discomfort, with their shame. It's not easy for anyone
(34:20):
know it truly, truly isn't and and conversations about it,
naming it Like for me, that is the power of
this work is in a way, we're creating structures for
people to explore and experiment with by naming what is
actually happening, and it's it's giving people options. And I'm
so glad that you and I got the chance to
(34:40):
talk about the stuff together. Now obviously in the show notes,
I'm god a link to your ted talk. I'm a
link to your book. Is there anything else you want
people to know where to look for you when your
next book is coming out? Thank you? I have I
have a website that's just my name and then dot com,
sal dot com. There are some other books there if
people are interested. No, thank you. I think that's good, excellent, Okay,
(35:02):
we are going to put that in the show notes. Everybody, Sriah,
thank you so much for being here. Stay with us, everybody.
We will be right back with your questions to carry
with you, or right after this each week I leave
(35:25):
you with some questions to carry with you until we
meet again. And here's the thing for me in this
episode parts one and two, It's amazing just how hopeful
it is to connect with other angry people. You know
what I mean? As Soriah said, anger is a social
emotion and connecting with people who feel as passionate about
(35:48):
the state of the world as you do. That's the
kind of community that I want to be part of.
What about you? What's stuck with you today? From this
conversation on anger and grief and joy and connection? What
parts made you think or cry or feel even just
the edge of your own anger brewing and waiting to
(36:12):
be free. Everybody's going to take something different from today's show,
but I do hope you find something to hold onto.
Check out Refuge and Grief on Instagram or here after
pod on TikTok to see video clips from the show,
and please leave your thoughts in the comments on those posts.
Everybody's got something to say about anger and I want
to hear it. Be sure to tag us in your
(36:34):
conversation starting posts on your own social media use the
hashtag here after pod on all the platforms. We love
to see where this show takes you, and remember to
subscribe and leave a review. Reviews help more than you
know they're not. Just like I like to see reviews
of how much you love the show, but it also
(36:55):
helps potential listeners know that this is a pretty rad
show to listen to. Anyway, if you want to tell
us how today's show felt for you, or you have
a request or a question for upcoming explorations of difficult things,
send us an email. You can do that right on
the website. Megan Divine dot c O. We want to
hear from you. I want to hear from you. This show,
(37:18):
this world needs your voice. Together, we can make things
better even when they can't be made right. Want more Hereafter.
Grief education doesn't just belong to end of life issues.
Life is full of losses, from everyday disappointments to events
that clearly divide life into before and after. Learning how
(37:41):
to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or
simplistic think positive posters is an important skill for everyone.
Find trainings, workshops, books and resources for every human trying
to make their way in the world. After something goes
horribly wrong at Megan Divine dot c. O here After
with Mega Divine is written and produced by me Megan Divine.
(38:03):
Executive producer is Amy Brown, who produced by Tonya Juhaus
and Elizabeth Fozio, edited by Houston Tilly, and studio support
by Chris Yuron. Music provided by Wave Crush
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