June 13, 2023 • 42 mins
If you try to not let something define you, can it define you anyway?
You might know Chase Jarvis as an Emmy nominated photographer, founder of Creative Live, and angel investor. The world of venture capital and billion dollar deals isn’t exactly known for its human side, but Chase’s kindness and vulnerability are legendary.
In part two of our conversation, we get into a deep discussion over whether a successful person is allowed to feel intense grief, or if success disqualifies you. We unpack an accident that could have killed him - and how that experience shaped his life even as he tried to ignore it. Chase’s willingness to explore personal, emotional territory in real time in this episode is really special.
We make a lot of invisible things visible in this episode, from the creativity of every day, to the grief of getting what you want, to how a near-death experience can both shape your entire life AND be something you refuse to think about.
Content note: this episode contains a lot of swearing.
*Need to talk to Megan? apply for a 1:1 grief consultation with Megan Devine here*
In this episode we cover:
- How to break the habit of dismissing your feelings before you even get to feel them
- Do successful people get to identify as grieving?
- Can you revisit old issues with kindness?
- What happens if you decide something MAJOR is “no big deal”?
Related episodes:
Listen to part one of Chase Jarvis here
Chip Conley on the dark night of the soul, near death experiences, and finding community
About our guest:
Chase Jarvis is an award-winning artist, entrepreneur, best-selling author, and one of the most influential photographers of the past 20 years. His expansive work ranges from shooting advertising campaigns for companies like Apple, Nike, and Red Bull; to working with athletes like Serena Williams and Tony Hawk, to collaborating with renowned icons like Lady Gaga and Richard Branson. He is the Founder of CreativeLive, where more than 10 million students learn from the world’s top creators and entrepreneurs; CreativeLive was acquired by Fiverr in 2021. His recent book Creative Calling debuted as an instant National Best Seller.
More at chasejarvis.com
About Megan:
Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries.
The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.
Additional resources:
Get Chase Jarvis’ latest book, Creative Calling, here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We gonna make it okay, Like you see Madonna reinvent
herself and it's cool. And then we think about, you know,
inventing and reinventing ourselves, and it somehow carries this like
awkward hard weight or it seems disingenuous because who you
were yesterday, that's who you are. Your friends from high
school know you and like, But what's wrong with reinvention
(00:22):
or recasting our identity in a new light?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
This is it's okay that you're not okay, And I'm
your host, Megan Divine. Now, if your life is objectively awesome,
do you get to feel grief? And can a near
death experience both shape your entire life and be something
that you refuse to think about? All of that and
more in part two of my conversation with photographer Chase Jarvis,
(00:47):
coming up right after this first break. Before we get started,
one quick note, Well, we cover a lot of emotional
relational territory in each and every episode. This show is
not a substitute for skilled support with a license mental
health provider or for professional supervision related to your work.
(01:13):
Hey friends, So just a quick introduction from me. This
is part two of my very long conversation with photographer
and Creative Live founder Chase Jarvis. If you have not
listened to part one yet, you can download that wherever
you got this podcast episode. Wherever you're listening to this.
It is a fascinating conversation, So you can go back
and listen to part one first if you'd like, or
(01:35):
you can also just embrace creative Chaos and jump in
here with part two and roll with the flow. Part
two begins after Chase and I had already been talking
for over an hour. In part two, we finish our
exploration of whether a white, able bodied, wealthy male is
allowed to feel grief, and then Chase told me about
(01:57):
an accident that nearly killed him. I don't want to
give away too much of the story. I would rather
let Chase tell it himself, so you'll have to listen
for that. In this episode, we make a lot of
invisible things more visible in both parts of the episode,
So this time, sit back and listen in to a
(02:18):
wide ranging, still f bomb laden Part two of My
conversation with photographer Chase Jarvis. We're jumping in already in progress.
It's interesting that you go into the grief comparison there
because it is. It is really rampant, right, like, how
dare you be how dare you have feelings about this
(02:40):
thing when mine is so much worse? Or how dare
you say you're tired when you know you're You've got
all of these things going for you and there's this
there's this real like incensed outrage. How dare you have feelings?
One of my favorite episodes of all times of my
own podcast is the Grief Filled or the love Filled
(03:02):
World and talking about like those grief comparisons, and this
is all about that scarcity of compassion, right if I
don't feel like there's enough love and support and understanding
for me, and my kid died or my mom died
or I have you know, long COVID and like my
body's changed. Like if I don't feel like there is
(03:24):
enough validation and support for me, then how dare you
try to take some of the existing compassion existing in
the world when I already don't have enough and I
feel like this is just Yeah, I think we're solving
for the wrong problem when we're saying how dare you
feel this way?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Having conversations where we really get to hear how hard
it is for another person to be human, what grief
looks like and feels like in their life, what they're
wrestling with. Like the more we have those conversations kindly
and openly and inclusively and recognize what somebody is going
(04:05):
through as grief of some kind grief period, right, Like,
we're not going to get the world that we want
where everybody is seen and heard and supported and validated
exactly where they are, exactly as who they are in
this moment, until we welcome everybody to that party. We
can do that internalized how dare I have feelings? How
(04:27):
dare I be tired? Right? And you know, we started
out our conversation together talking about the narratives, the scripts
and the stories that we've inherited. When the little kid
goes to start drawing for the first time and they
draw a house that the teacher thinks looks like a house,
but it's not what they imagine as a house, right,
And it's the same sort of thing, right, Like, when
you are going through something difficult and you're questioning your
(04:48):
identity and your role in the world and the role
of the world and all of these things. If you
have got your basics and more covered, it really can
feel like, who the hell am I to take up
any space at all to feel these things? And it's like,
who the hell are you not to because when you
do have this is gonna sound so bullshit, especially coming
(05:11):
from me, But when you have the luxury to be
in pain because nothing else is taking you away from that,
then be in pain. I was just going over this
with my current training group when we're talking about social
justice and grief issues, and like, I have very popular
memes that say like, let your grief take up all
(05:32):
the space it needs, whatever that grief is, And talking
with my students about this, I'm like, who gets to
do that?
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Though?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Who gets to be in the pain that they're in? Yeah,
because it's not the single parent working for jobs just
to cover rent and they don't have health insurance. Like,
it's not that person who gets to really sit with
their tiredness and breathe into it.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
There's so many different ways on to go with that,
because what it's sort of like, maybe that's the thing
that I'm poking at. There are a certain set of
descriptors where we can, you know, touch grief on the nose,
and then there's all these other ones, And maybe that's
who I'm sort of appealing to here on the show,
listeners to her like, I'm not sure if my grief
(06:19):
like capital g or you know, where on the spectrum
is it or whatever, and you know that, you know,
to reveal my own journey here. It's not an accident.
I recently had on my podcast, which is just after
my name is called the Chase Jervids Live Show, I
had a guest named Oxana Masters, and Axana Masters is
a Paralympic athlete. She was born in the Ukraine and
(06:44):
as a result of the Chernobyl disaster, she was born
with a very different body than most of us are
born with. She had one kidney, half a stomach, six
toes on each foot, webbed fingers, no biceps, thumbs, all
sorts of a different body than you would than normal.
(07:06):
And having her on the show, one of the chief
things that she communicated was this idea that just because
her experience, that her grief, that her journey looked very,
very different. She wanted everyone to make sure that this
is not a scale. This is this is a feeling
(07:26):
and and we have to we have to learn as
a culture to accept that. And she talked about how
how far we feel like, you know, we have to
go because it's it's we don't. We're not there yet.
So to me, I think that that I just had
her as a guest not too long ago, tells you, well,
I'm looking and it's you know, it's coming out here
(07:46):
in the process of our you know, swapping stories here
in the show. And then there's two other things. One
I'm reminded of Miss Kelly, my second grade teacher, who
there is this thing is like the first part of
second grade, right before you go into the holidays and
parent teacher conference, and they were smart. They paired it
with the ice cream socials. So the parents are meeting
(08:08):
with the kids and the kid the teachers and you
can go into the gym and get you know, get
some ice cream and whatnot. And I remember walking in
and I literally walked in on Miss Kelly telling my
parents that, you know, Chase really likes his creativity stuff,
but he's really not that good at art. So but
I do see that he stands out in you know,
(08:29):
physical fitness, so let's steer Chase more towards sports, you know.
And as a kid, I remember now looking back that
it wasn't like I was oh, poor little Chase. And
right now hopefully the audience is empathizing with me. Oh,
but whenever it is like okay, fuck it, then I'm
not going to do that anymore. And I'm if they
think I should just you know, be good at pe,
(08:50):
well fine, that's what I'm going to go do. And
so I just think of little moments like that that
shape us, and the same could be true stories about grief,
stories to ourselves about who we are or aren't, or
what we are or aren't capable with, or what we
should or shouldn't be able to do. Like this is
sort of what I mean by this cultural programming, this
conditioning that run so deep. And then I'm also reminded,
(09:13):
and this is where I'll hand the mic back to
you of I haven't really shared and I think is
reasonable to do. So now is that as a part
of my job as a photographer in a filmmaker, I
was making an ad campaign in Alaska and I was
(09:33):
caught in an avalanche and I talked very little about it.
I wrote about it in one book and it was
very cathartic to talk about it, But the idea of
actually confronting in I lived, Okay, but it was by
every measure, I should not be here, just the size
of the avalanche to type out all these little, these
(09:54):
little details that would bore the audience. But I think
the punchline is that I shouldn't be and I somehow
am and that survivor. I don't know if it's survivor
guilt or like the holy shit, but now, what is
a was a question I was very much confronted with, which,
(10:15):
just speaking bluntly, you know all this stuff about creativity
and that you know we're creating in small, daily ways
and this is actually what reminds us that we are
you know, we can create with the capital C the life,
and this is our choice. This is the sort of
inspirational part that actually came out of me basically dying
almost dying, And it was very like a light switch.
(10:38):
And I don't know again that this this is supposed
to this is how it's supposed to go or not
I'm not supposed to go. But for me it was,
oh my god, you're living other people's life. You need
to get back to you. And so again I don't
know what to do with that otherwise other than I
don't feel like I would be being genuine if I
didn't say that, you know, there have been some pretty
(11:00):
significant experiences that help that have helped shape sort of
my view on grief, and I would say, by contrast,
my view on the human experience, how to shape our
life if we want, you know, can we allow grief
and be okay with that? Agree it's not something we're
running from. Like all of these ideas, they didn't come
(11:20):
out of nowhere, and it didn't come out of just this,
you know, a tidy little package that I project to
the world, or if you look me up on the internet,
you would see you know.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
What strikes me as you as you share that story
and thank you for sharing that with us. It's this
repeated process of identity formation and dissolution, right you talk
about it, Yeah, well that's what it is, and that's
that's what I hear. Yeah, right, And this this is
really the thread that's come through our entire conversation, whether
(11:52):
we've been talking about me or talking about you or
talking about the people that you've reached with your work.
This life is it's peristaltic motion, right like contract expand,
contract expand, This identity gets formed and then there is
something that intersects with that identity and makes us say,
(12:12):
wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute, whose
life am I living? Is it mine? Is it not mine?
There's this sorting process that we go through, and there
is grief involved in all of that. Right, there is
grief involved in all of that. And I think the
more we have conversations about the things that we don't
name as grief, the better, kinder, more supportive, better world
(12:37):
we create together. Right when we have these conversations, when
we start making the invisible grief visible, when we start
having conversations about how much fucking grief lives in success,
and how many people feel like they aren't allowed to
feel the way they feel or experience what they're experiencing
(12:58):
because this because this story says that I'm not allowed
or this story says that, you know, I'm a guy,
I'm not supposed I'm supposed to be tough. Like we
haven't even touched that, and we don't really have time
for that whole narrative. But like this, this whole new episode,
entire series where Chasing Meghan deconstruct what it's like to
be male and human in the same lifetime, we could
(13:20):
totally do that but like, this is the thread here
that I see of this continual process of who am
I right now? Who am I to myself? And is
this the me that I want to be? And given
what's mine to live and what I'm experiencing and how
I'm feeling, where do I get to create my next identity,
(13:43):
my next life, the next iteration of this experience.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
It's it feels like a worthiness conversation, right, And I'm
worthy of becoming the person that i want to become
in the face of what I've done or haven't done
in success or lack thereof, or fulfilment or lack there of,
or health or lack thereof, or you know, I maybe
want to share another story, which is a friend of
mine who recently lost her teenage son read your book.
(14:11):
And the reason I bring this up is sort of
like some of the gifts that come from, you know,
doing this hard work or processing grief again, whether you
were identifying grief as the classically defined or this sort
of nebulous like you've got to squint to see it
kind of stuff. What I personally witnessed in this person
(14:32):
who I've known for whatever fifteen years or something like
that was the most the ability to in the same
moment or adjacent moments rather to be face and hands
absolutely sobbing, and to be laughing, joyfully and maybe even
(14:54):
hysterically in the best possible, warmest, heartfelt way, you know,
in moments that adjacent to one another, to ask questions
like am I still a mom now? And to actually
say those words out loud that other people might think
but not say, or that a person who has experienced this,
you know, would process it differently, like to watch all
(15:18):
of this happen in the container of grief as an outsider,
very close, but as an outsider to her experience watching this,
it was one of the most beautiful experiences that I've
ever had of watching a person be a fucking person.
And I don't know to do with that other than
(15:39):
be inspired by it. And believe me, if she were
sitting here next to me, she would say that's not
how it is on most of the days, or she
would have some comment.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
That was right, like I am yours poster.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yeah, charming and endearing and the same like again, you
can hold both these things at the same time. That's
part of what the human experience is, and it was
it was foundly affected me, and I'm still I don't
know how to halley up all of the profundities. But
it was just absolutely beautiful to watch someone be in
(16:11):
this soup and I was very very inspired by it.
I don't have to do with it other than just
to cherish it. And it seems like a different waypoint,
a different input than I have carried around for most
of my life about what it meant to grieve or
to be human. It was a better input. That's the
kind of conditioning that I want, not the other kinds
(16:34):
of conditioning that say that you're, you know again thinking
about your the title of it, so you know it's
okay that you're not okay.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I love that I'm leaving that beat in there because
I adore what you just said there. And I also
can total I don't know your friend, but I can
totally hear them being like, I am not your inspirational poster.
Dude me in your logger, don't do that to me.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I'm not going to do, you know. I was just like, but.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Here's the thing, though, is one like I love this vision.
I love this vision for you, I love this vision
for myself, I love this vision for everybody, Like knowing
that you can be exactly who you are in this
moment and not give a shit what anybody else thinks
about it, because you are doing exactly what you need,
Like this is what grief is like, right, Like crying
(17:28):
so hard you're vomiting, and also laughing hysterically, and also
saying the things that you're thinking and knowing that it's
okay to say them out loud, like this is what
I want for everybody. There's no solution to this stuff,
Like we're not going to like magic wand and make
this not suck. And do you have places in yourself
(17:50):
and with the people in your life where you can
be whatever you are in this moment and be welcome
to that? And so I want to reflect that back
to you. The fact that she did that in your
presence means that you have created a relationship and created
a identity, created a being with whom it is safe
(18:14):
to show up as your full self and know that
you're not going to get talked out of any of
those expressions.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
It has brought a particular posse of our friends so
close together. I just I observed that too.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Chase and I talked for a really long time expands
the course of two whole episodes, but I answered a
lot of questions that Chase had about grief. So before
we get back to our conversation, I want to tell
you about two ways that you can ask me your
questions about grief, no matter what kind of grief you're carrying.
Once a month I host a live Q and A
(18:57):
on Patreon. It is a time to get to talk
with me directly, to get your questions answered, and to
listen in to the answers of the other people in
our Patreon community. It is a really sweet group and
we would love to have you. All of the information
is at patreon dot com, backslash Megan Divine, or you
can find the link in the show notes. If you
would much rather talk to me privately, there's a new
(19:19):
option for that. The link to apply for individual sessions
is in the show notes. Okay, back to my conversation
with Creative Live founder Chase Jarvis.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And you know, this is sort of like a lot
of people think of creativity as an individual act. I'm
really big on the community aspects around creating, collaboration, co conspirators,
and I do see there's an interesting parallel that's emerging
like that, you know, if you're the average of the
people you spend the most time with and if you can,
you know, create a community where you do feel safe
(19:52):
and connected and all these other things that you talked
about me witnessing and her. There's also a line that
you said, which is highlighted in your book, that grief
is not a problem to be solved, that's an experience
to be carried. That's insanely powerful. But it goes back
to this idea of becoming a human and that all
(20:13):
these like, all these inputs are it's hard to cherish them,
but you know, you do the research on people who
are on their death Bread Sea, our mutual friend Michael,
you know, and the regret, I think the most number
one regret is that they sort of did not live.
I don't want to get this wrong, but I think
(20:34):
it's that they lived a life that was directed by
someone else rather than by themselves. I don't know. Again,
it's sort of it's a very amorphous soup, but I
think there's some kernel of wisdom and it does probably
go back to this, you know, identity and reinvention point
that you've traced through our conversation. We kind of make
(20:55):
it okay, Like you see Madonna reinvent herself and it's cool.
And then we think about you know, inventing and reinventing ourselves,
and it somehow carries this like awkward hard weight or
it seems disingenuous because who you were yesterday, that's who
you are. Your friends from high school know you, and like,
but what's wrong with reinvention or recasting our identity in
(21:19):
a new light? After we go inward and then just said,
you know what, this is the direction I'm going? Why
is that difficult? You know? What's the phrase? We look
at the tree that has grown different than most other trees,
and it makes perfect sense to us, right, Oh cool,
the tree had to go like this and like this
so that it could reach the light, or the roots
(21:40):
came sort of above ground here because it needed to
do x or that makes sense to us. But we
look at a human and we like we scratch our heads, right,
I wonder why they well, you know, they did that
because that's how they needed That's what they needed to
do in order to survive. And then we also if
that person wanted to reinvent themselves, like ah, but.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Do you really is that really a good idea. Yeah,
don't you think?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, it's an interesting thought soup.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
It is an interesting thought soup. The rude baga in
the thought soup that I'm gonna pick up there is
like think about you know when people go through an
intense experience whatever that is, and people are like, well,
don't let it change you, right, like you're still the
person you used to be, Like this insistence that you
not change when things happen in your life, even great
(22:31):
things like don't look the money change but like this,
like I love this. I love this image of the
tree right, like the tree like if they're shitting the
way it grows around it to get to the light
and we don't look at the tree and be like,
don't let that boulder change you? Like no, okay, So
again like this continual process of invention reinvention assessment and
(22:55):
not in the like not in the like judgy bitchy
way of assessment, but like in a sesse of like
whose life is this? And given what I'm living right
now or what I'm experiencing good bad in the middle indifferent,
like what is mine in this? And how do I create?
(23:16):
What is more? And more mine? I really feel like
that is the narrative arc that you've shared with me
and with us today, but also like I can see
that in my very curated view of your career and
your pattern, like this willingness and insistence, whether it's in
public view or not, to examine your own invisibility, what's
(23:41):
invisible in your own life, what invisible forces are at play,
and who you know yourself to be, and how you
show up in the world and questioning them and playing
with them and playing with that shit is not always easy,
and sometimes it's really incredibly painful. And I'm really thankful
that you showed up and you were willing to talk
about that incredible painful part of being human.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Thank you very much again for giving me the space
to do this stuff. Usually go on podcasts and talk
about work with people to make documentary films or hit
music or and you know, something that has a different tenor,
and like, I'm still in the process of evaluating. I
don't know if they're judging I'm going to use it
(24:27):
because it's because it's loaded, but sort of the role
that almost Dying has had in this process for me.
What's your take on that? M It seemed pretty like
line the.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Sandy Yeah, I mean, how could it not be right?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
One confession there is that I remember actively programming against
using that as a vehicle for which I wanted to
seek change.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It took me ten years to vocalize it.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Wow, yeah, that's really interesting, right this, Like here is
this literally life altering event in which I almost died
and I will not let it affect me.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, some film even, Wow, yeah, I have a film
that I've watched it.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
That is really interesting. And you know, I don't want
a therapy you, but like it reminds me. What that
reminds me of is is when you and I were
talking about the grief inherent in success and the grief
inherent in identity, Like how quickly you went to I
know it's not that bad. I know it's not as
(25:41):
bad as anybody else. Sorry, if this is offensive to you,
I don't mean to take up any space with my
being human. Like there there's an interesting thread to my
mind connecting those two events. Right here is this immense
thing that happened that it sounds like in the moment
of that you understood that it was immense and in
(26:04):
the very very very clear, very clearly and in the
very next adjacent moment, there was some story, there was
some identity that said it is not cool to identify
with us. Yep, this is not for me, right, So
there's there is something really interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Oh for sure, it felt like a cheap gimmick in
a film or something. M It was interesting to have
not processed it until I do a lot of morning
pages Julia Cameron way writing in The Biscuits, early morning writing,
you know, two to three unstructured pages, handwritten, just flow
(26:45):
of thoughts for people who are not familiar with Julia
Cameron's work. And it was in that process that it
came up. And then it was sort of like trying
to decide whether or not to put it in my book.
And I remember even not like, eh, not wanting to,
and my editor was like, I don't see how you
(27:05):
can't put it in there. And it was a sort
of a revisiting of that. But isn't this just sort
of like a a cheap cliche to you know, put
in there, And doesn't that sort of actually undermine the
authenticity or the veracity of the narrative. And you know,
now now that's sort of out there in the world.
(27:26):
It almost feels sort of matter of fact y and
I feel better about it. But I have not quite
wrestled with the fact that there was a period where
that was not open for business. I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I think that's again therapists had on like that is
that is deep territory for exploration, right, Like how did
it serve me to not look at that event? Because
it clearly it served something right and we don't know
what that is. Right back in the beginning of our conversation,
I went on my rant about the transactional lens that
(28:01):
gets put on art and the creative process, like ye,
you take something terrible and you turn it into something magical,
and like wooh, this is the whole reason for existence,
is to turn pain into a gallery opening. And I
wonder about that the resistance to that mechanism, like that
there's some part of you that, in this moment, having
(28:22):
survived something that you very easily could have not survived,
part of you was like, I will not become a
transformation story. I will not become a cliche. This will
not be mine. And you know that there's like this,
like this rejection of the flattening of human experience, and
I will not even do it to myself to the
(28:43):
extent that I will not allow myself to feel the
impact of what just happened, because it is so tempting
to flatten that into a transaction.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
I think you're onto something to me. One of the
main themes here is around invention and reinvention and the
you know, the space. Presumably listeners on your show are
they came in to know you because of their personal
experiences and someone recommended you, And I think all the
(29:14):
ways that you know, I've heard about you and your work,
you know, it's it's in the that context, and so
maybe your listeners are predisposed to understand that they look,
there's you know, grief comes in many shapes and sizes,
and trying to label it and pin it down is
actually a radical disservice to the you know again, to
(29:37):
what it means to be human. And yet here I
am like, well shit, I'm guessing that if you know
what's the in the particular lives of the universal and
a fun just one dude who's over here really struggling
with it, I can only imagine that there are others.
So I guess this is that you're not a lone speech.
(29:57):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, this is why we do that, right, This is
why we make space for these conversations because there is
so much under the surface for everyone, for everyone, And
until we see and understand and apply some skill sets
to having these deeper conversations about the reality of being human,
(30:21):
then we just lose so much.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I think that's insightful. You just lose so much. I
don't know what it is, but it's like there's a
that's a big piece of it. I don't know what
it is either, but maybe the fear lest thing you understand.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah, I think that the it is always going to move.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Maybe that's by design, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I think I think so. I mean I think, like,
how bored would you be if you had the final, final,
final answers as a curious mind, as a creative mind,
as somebody who is in did in the human condition
and all the ways that that shows up and all
the ways to come into more alignment with your own
(31:07):
creative life. Right, Yeah, there is no I'm going to
go all philosopher. Somebody told me the other day that
talking to me that I was like human xanax, and
I was like, Okay, maybe I'll take that. But like
the whole soothing philosopher voice here with like there is
no frickin destination, there is no time when you have
all of this stuff figured out and there's nothing left
(31:30):
to explore. I just don't think that that's a thing.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
That's not a thing can be a thing.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
There are two things that I want to pull out
and reflect back to you as we close up. So
one it's more of a statement than a question. One
thing that our mutual friend told me to He literally said,
watch for how kind he is. I think you'll really
appreciate it. And so this was a direction from our
(31:58):
mutual friend as he was like helping you prefer for
our time together. He said, you know, his kindness and
vulnerability in the business and world of success is really legendary,
and I think you're really going to appreciate that. And
I want to reflect that back that our our mutual friend,
Michael was correct. Like in every in everything that you've
spoken about, you know, I've seen you speak about this
stuff with with kindness and with insight, and even therapist
(32:22):
had on again, even when you came up against your
own disqualifying your own experience, you came back to it
with kindness, so I saw that, and I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
I'm very grateful. That is a. There's a world of
work there. Again, if you're if you can be kind
to yourself, what is it. The most important words in
the world that we say to ourselves are the ones
we say to our most important words in the world
are the ones we say to ourselves, like I'm that
is a. That's work there, that is work there.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, kindness, kindness to self is one of the most
difficult things in the world.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Now, it's so easy to be kind to other people,
oh so easy.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
For ten years from now, I've been running a course
called Writing Your Grief and there's a prompt in there
about kindness to self, and it is the hardest prompt
in the entire thirty prompt series. It's so hard to
apply the kindness and the inclusion, the acceptance and the
support that you give to the world, it's so hard
to apply that to yourself. That's like part seventy seven
(33:25):
of our conversation. But I do want to wind us
up because I want to respect your time and all
of this stuff. And the last thing that I want
to ask you is the thing that I ask everybody.
Has we come to a close. Here Now you are
and have been walking into yet again defining and redefining
yourself and exploring some old territory that maybe has been
(33:49):
waiting for you patiently, patiently, you know, so knowing what
you know and living what you've lived and exploring what
you've exc bored. What does hope look like for you?
Does it exist at all in the in the sphere
of Chase hmm?
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Hope to me feels like a relationship to myself. I'm
very much a relationship person, and I can't say that
I haven't had a relationship with myself. Again, I keep
talking about the most important words that we say and whatnot,
and but I feel like it just it comes back.
When I feel hopeful, there is a sort of like ah,
(34:35):
you get more and more glimpses of the connection that
you can make with yourself. That doesn't feel profound. It feels,
you know, maybe even tragically simple. But that's that is
like what I when I feel hopeful, it's like I
just like one percent more connected every day or when,
(34:58):
or I don't know what the interval is. But again,
it's a belief in yourself, a connection to yourself, an
allowance for yourself, kindness to yourself that feels hopeful when
I think about even just the word hope, Like God,
you know what, it's maybe two steps forward, one step back,
(35:19):
but that's promising to me. I know. It builds stillness,
the relationship that I'm continually forming with myself. To me,
that's beautiful, like the stillness sitting in a forest. I
was in the woods the other day by myself for
the first time in a long time. It's amazing, and
(35:39):
there was just a stillness there and that that felt
like hope, and it felt like sort of like my
relationship with myself and the natural world and others, and
it just again, maybe that's the ramdass thing. It's just
a continually you know, coming home, we're all walking our something,
walking one another home. I forget, we're just walking each Yeah,
something like that. Yeah, I don't know. That's what.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
When I think of hope, I love that it feels
very practical, which which I super enjoy. Like I'm all
about that practical, functional hope. And it's a really it's
a really internal hope for you that's not sort of
subject to external narratives or ideas. Yeah, maybe that's.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Where the wisdom. Yeah, I'm packing a little wisdom. Is
it okay to put yourself on the back every once
in a while? Oh yes, please, right, maybe that's what
I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Good job, so, good job, good job self. All right,
So we are going to link to your latest book
and your website. Is there anything else that you want
people to know about where to find you or what
they might explore next?
Speaker 1 (36:45):
No, I think I tend to really focus on creativity
the human spirit, and if that is of interest for
any of your existing listeners might be, you know, on
your show here for a particular reason. But if those
areas that Megan I have shared today in this conversation
(37:05):
are of interest to you, and the fact that we
can you know, what we can create with this one,
you know, precious life that we have. That's I'm just
at Chase Jervis everywhere on the internet. It's a good
way to find me. And the book I think is
more valuable than you know. We all just gravitate to
the social feeds, which are are nice and fine, but
you know the work, you know, it really comes out
(37:27):
in the book, I think, and that book is called
Creative Calling. Yeah, thank you so much for being a
guest in the show. And again, I've seen the very
profound effect that your work has on others. And I
shared the experience of my one friend. But that's not
the only experience that I could share. There would be others.
(37:49):
But I'm grateful for you and thank you again for
having me as a guest, maybe a non traditional guest.
And I do think my mutual friend or our mutual
friend for introducing Yeah, maybe you will be a guest
on my show one day.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Ooh, I would love that.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Swapsies swapsies.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
All right, everybody, I will be right back with your
questions to carry with you right after this break. Each week,
I leave you with some questions to carry with you
until we meet again. Now, this section of my very
(38:28):
long two part conversation with Chase Jarvis had me wondering
about the things we bury, the impossible things that we survive,
and then like make this decision to tell ourselves like, nope,
I am not going to have this be what defines me,
and in the process of distancing ourselves from those intense things,
(38:49):
sort of leaving this foundational experience of grief just like ignored.
It's fascinating and I think I think each one of
us probably has some of those foundational experiences that we
were like, Nah, I'm putting this away. I don't need this.
It's fascinating. So that discovery of self, right, like the
(39:12):
creativity of exploring your own beliefs and your own stories
and your own habits, that's a powerful act. It's something
that's available to all of us at any time. What
questions do you have about your own life and the
ways that subterranean stories affect you? I think that's a
(39:32):
really cool question to carry with you. But maybe maybe
you have that question to carry with you, and maybe
you found something else to hold on to. No matter
what you found in this show to carry with you,
I'd love to hear about it. So let me know
if you have thoughts on what we covered. Tag refuge
and grief on all the social platforms so I can
hear how this conversation affected you. Be sure to listen
(39:55):
to part one of my conversation with Chase Jarvis if
you haven't yet, and if you want to ask me
personal questions about your own life or get some help
excavating the stories you carry, be sure to check the
show notes. Four ways to work with me directly follow
the show at It's Okay Pod on TikTok and Refuge
Grief everywhere else. To see video clips from the show,
(40:17):
use the hashtag It's Okay pod on all the platforms,
so not only I can find you, but others can too.
None of us are entirely okay, and it's time we
start talking about that together. Yeah, it's okay that you're
not okay. You're in good company. That's it for this week.
(40:39):
Remember to subscribe to the show, leave a review for
the show. Those reviews help make the show easier to find,
which furthers my mission of getting more people to have
interesting conversations about difficult things. Also, your reviews are really
special to me and it brings me great joy to
read them. Coming up next week, Oh boy, Coming up
(41:01):
next week, Friends, it is Valerie Core, author of Sin
No Stranger and truly one of the most inspiring, eloquent,
kind hearted, and ferocious people I have ever met. Be
sure to follow the show on your favorite platforms so
you do not miss an episode. Want more on these topics, Look,
(41:21):
grief is everywhere. As my dad says, daily life is
full of everyday grief that we don't call grief. Learning
how to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes
or dismissive statements is an important skill for everyone, whether
you're trying to support a friend going through a hard time,
or you work in the helping professions, get help to
have those conversations with trainings, professional resources, and my best
(41:42):
selling book, It's Okay that You're Not Okay. At Megandivine
dot Co. It's Okay that You're Not Okay. The podcast
is written and produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer
is Amy Brown, co produced by Elizabeth Fozzio, with logistical
and social media support from Micah. Post production and editing
by Houston Tilly. Music provided by Wave Crush and background
(42:05):
noise provided by the Endless Spring drone of chainsaws cleaning
up after the winter rains. Even now, after all this time,
We gonna make it okay, Like you see Madonna reinvent
herself and it's cool. And then we think about, you know,
inventing and reinventing ourselves, and it somehow carries this like
awkward hard weight or it seems disingenuous because who you
were yesterday, that's who you are. Your friends from high
school know you and like, But what's wrong with reinvention
(00:22):
or recasting our identity in a new light?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
This is it's okay that you're not okay, And I'm
your host, Megan Divine. Now, if your life is objectively awesome,
do you get to feel grief? And can a near
death experience both shape your entire life and be something
that you refuse to think about? All of that and
more in part two of my conversation with photographer Chase Jarvis,
(00:47):
coming up right after this first break. Before we get started,
one quick note, Well, we cover a lot of emotional
relational territory in each and every episode. This show is
not a substitute for skilled support with a license mental
health provider or for professional supervision related to your work.
(01:13):
Hey friends, So just a quick introduction from me. This
is part two of my very long conversation with photographer
and Creative Live founder Chase Jarvis. If you have not
listened to part one yet, you can download that wherever
you got this podcast episode. Wherever you're listening to this.
It is a fascinating conversation, So you can go back
and listen to part one first if you'd like, or
(01:35):
you can also just embrace creative Chaos and jump in
here with part two and roll with the flow. Part
two begins after Chase and I had already been talking
for over an hour. In part two, we finish our
exploration of whether a white, able bodied, wealthy male is
allowed to feel grief, and then Chase told me about
(01:57):
an accident that nearly killed him. I don't want to
give away too much of the story. I would rather
let Chase tell it himself, so you'll have to listen
for that. In this episode, we make a lot of
invisible things more visible in both parts of the episode,
So this time, sit back and listen in to a
(02:18):
wide ranging, still f bomb laden Part two of My
conversation with photographer Chase Jarvis. We're jumping in already in progress.
It's interesting that you go into the grief comparison there
because it is. It is really rampant, right, like, how
dare you be how dare you have feelings about this
(02:40):
thing when mine is so much worse? Or how dare
you say you're tired when you know you're You've got
all of these things going for you and there's this
there's this real like incensed outrage. How dare you have feelings?
One of my favorite episodes of all times of my
own podcast is the Grief Filled or the love Filled
(03:02):
World and talking about like those grief comparisons, and this
is all about that scarcity of compassion, right if I
don't feel like there's enough love and support and understanding
for me, and my kid died or my mom died
or I have you know, long COVID and like my
body's changed. Like if I don't feel like there is
(03:24):
enough validation and support for me, then how dare you
try to take some of the existing compassion existing in
the world when I already don't have enough and I
feel like this is just Yeah, I think we're solving
for the wrong problem when we're saying how dare you
feel this way?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Having conversations where we really get to hear how hard
it is for another person to be human, what grief
looks like and feels like in their life, what they're
wrestling with. Like the more we have those conversations kindly
and openly and inclusively and recognize what somebody is going
(04:05):
through as grief of some kind grief period, right, Like,
we're not going to get the world that we want
where everybody is seen and heard and supported and validated
exactly where they are, exactly as who they are in
this moment, until we welcome everybody to that party. We
can do that internalized how dare I have feelings? How
(04:27):
dare I be tired? Right? And you know, we started
out our conversation together talking about the narratives, the scripts
and the stories that we've inherited. When the little kid
goes to start drawing for the first time and they
draw a house that the teacher thinks looks like a house,
but it's not what they imagine as a house, right,
And it's the same sort of thing, right, Like, when
you are going through something difficult and you're questioning your
(04:48):
identity and your role in the world and the role
of the world and all of these things. If you
have got your basics and more covered, it really can
feel like, who the hell am I to take up
any space at all to feel these things? And it's like,
who the hell are you not to because when you
do have this is gonna sound so bullshit, especially coming
(05:11):
from me, But when you have the luxury to be
in pain because nothing else is taking you away from that,
then be in pain. I was just going over this
with my current training group when we're talking about social
justice and grief issues, and like, I have very popular
memes that say like, let your grief take up all
(05:32):
the space it needs, whatever that grief is, And talking
with my students about this, I'm like, who gets to
do that?
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Though?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Who gets to be in the pain that they're in? Yeah,
because it's not the single parent working for jobs just
to cover rent and they don't have health insurance. Like,
it's not that person who gets to really sit with
their tiredness and breathe into it.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
There's so many different ways on to go with that,
because what it's sort of like, maybe that's the thing
that I'm poking at. There are a certain set of
descriptors where we can, you know, touch grief on the nose,
and then there's all these other ones, And maybe that's
who I'm sort of appealing to here on the show,
listeners to her like, I'm not sure if my grief
(06:19):
like capital g or you know, where on the spectrum
is it or whatever, and you know that, you know,
to reveal my own journey here. It's not an accident.
I recently had on my podcast, which is just after
my name is called the Chase Jervids Live Show, I
had a guest named Oxana Masters, and Axana Masters is
a Paralympic athlete. She was born in the Ukraine and
(06:44):
as a result of the Chernobyl disaster, she was born
with a very different body than most of us are
born with. She had one kidney, half a stomach, six
toes on each foot, webbed fingers, no biceps, thumbs, all
sorts of a different body than you would than normal.
(07:06):
And having her on the show, one of the chief
things that she communicated was this idea that just because
her experience, that her grief, that her journey looked very,
very different. She wanted everyone to make sure that this
is not a scale. This is this is a feeling
(07:26):
and and we have to we have to learn as
a culture to accept that. And she talked about how
how far we feel like, you know, we have to
go because it's it's we don't. We're not there yet.
So to me, I think that that I just had
her as a guest not too long ago, tells you, well,
I'm looking and it's you know, it's coming out here
(07:46):
in the process of our you know, swapping stories here
in the show. And then there's two other things. One
I'm reminded of Miss Kelly, my second grade teacher, who
there is this thing is like the first part of
second grade, right before you go into the holidays and
parent teacher conference, and they were smart. They paired it
with the ice cream socials. So the parents are meeting
(08:08):
with the kids and the kid the teachers and you
can go into the gym and get you know, get
some ice cream and whatnot. And I remember walking in
and I literally walked in on Miss Kelly telling my
parents that, you know, Chase really likes his creativity stuff,
but he's really not that good at art. So but
I do see that he stands out in you know,
(08:29):
physical fitness, so let's steer Chase more towards sports, you know.
And as a kid, I remember now looking back that
it wasn't like I was oh, poor little Chase. And
right now hopefully the audience is empathizing with me. Oh,
but whenever it is like okay, fuck it, then I'm
not going to do that anymore. And I'm if they
think I should just you know, be good at pe,
(08:50):
well fine, that's what I'm going to go do. And
so I just think of little moments like that that
shape us, and the same could be true stories about grief,
stories to ourselves about who we are or aren't, or
what we are or aren't capable with, or what we
should or shouldn't be able to do. Like this is
sort of what I mean by this cultural programming, this
conditioning that run so deep. And then I'm also reminded,
(09:13):
and this is where I'll hand the mic back to
you of I haven't really shared and I think is
reasonable to do. So now is that as a part
of my job as a photographer in a filmmaker, I
was making an ad campaign in Alaska and I was
(09:33):
caught in an avalanche and I talked very little about it.
I wrote about it in one book and it was
very cathartic to talk about it, But the idea of
actually confronting in I lived, Okay, but it was by
every measure, I should not be here, just the size
of the avalanche to type out all these little, these
(09:54):
little details that would bore the audience. But I think
the punchline is that I shouldn't be and I somehow
am and that survivor. I don't know if it's survivor
guilt or like the holy shit, but now, what is
a was a question I was very much confronted with, which,
(10:15):
just speaking bluntly, you know all this stuff about creativity
and that you know we're creating in small, daily ways
and this is actually what reminds us that we are
you know, we can create with the capital C the life,
and this is our choice. This is the sort of
inspirational part that actually came out of me basically dying
almost dying, And it was very like a light switch.
(10:38):
And I don't know again that this this is supposed
to this is how it's supposed to go or not
I'm not supposed to go. But for me it was,
oh my god, you're living other people's life. You need
to get back to you. And so again I don't
know what to do with that otherwise other than I
don't feel like I would be being genuine if I
didn't say that, you know, there have been some pretty
(11:00):
significant experiences that help that have helped shape sort of
my view on grief, and I would say, by contrast,
my view on the human experience, how to shape our
life if we want, you know, can we allow grief
and be okay with that? Agree it's not something we're
running from. Like all of these ideas, they didn't come
(11:20):
out of nowhere, and it didn't come out of just this,
you know, a tidy little package that I project to
the world, or if you look me up on the internet,
you would see you know.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
What strikes me as you as you share that story
and thank you for sharing that with us. It's this
repeated process of identity formation and dissolution, right you talk
about it, Yeah, well that's what it is, and that's
that's what I hear. Yeah, right, And this this is
really the thread that's come through our entire conversation, whether
(11:52):
we've been talking about me or talking about you or
talking about the people that you've reached with your work.
This life is it's peristaltic motion, right like contract expand,
contract expand, This identity gets formed and then there is
something that intersects with that identity and makes us say,
(12:12):
wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute, whose
life am I living? Is it mine? Is it not mine?
There's this sorting process that we go through, and there
is grief involved in all of that. Right, there is
grief involved in all of that. And I think the
more we have conversations about the things that we don't
name as grief, the better, kinder, more supportive, better world
(12:37):
we create together. Right when we have these conversations, when
we start making the invisible grief visible, when we start
having conversations about how much fucking grief lives in success,
and how many people feel like they aren't allowed to
feel the way they feel or experience what they're experiencing
(12:58):
because this because this story says that I'm not allowed
or this story says that, you know, I'm a guy,
I'm not supposed I'm supposed to be tough. Like we
haven't even touched that, and we don't really have time
for that whole narrative. But like this, this whole new episode,
entire series where Chasing Meghan deconstruct what it's like to
be male and human in the same lifetime, we could
(13:20):
totally do that but like, this is the thread here
that I see of this continual process of who am
I right now? Who am I to myself? And is
this the me that I want to be? And given
what's mine to live and what I'm experiencing and how
I'm feeling, where do I get to create my next identity,
(13:43):
my next life, the next iteration of this experience.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
It's it feels like a worthiness conversation, right, And I'm
worthy of becoming the person that i want to become
in the face of what I've done or haven't done
in success or lack thereof, or fulfilment or lack there of,
or health or lack thereof, or you know, I maybe
want to share another story, which is a friend of
mine who recently lost her teenage son read your book.
(14:11):
And the reason I bring this up is sort of
like some of the gifts that come from, you know,
doing this hard work or processing grief again, whether you
were identifying grief as the classically defined or this sort
of nebulous like you've got to squint to see it
kind of stuff. What I personally witnessed in this person
(14:32):
who I've known for whatever fifteen years or something like
that was the most the ability to in the same
moment or adjacent moments rather to be face and hands
absolutely sobbing, and to be laughing, joyfully and maybe even
(14:54):
hysterically in the best possible, warmest, heartfelt way, you know,
in moments that adjacent to one another, to ask questions
like am I still a mom now? And to actually
say those words out loud that other people might think
but not say, or that a person who has experienced this,
you know, would process it differently, like to watch all
(15:18):
of this happen in the container of grief as an outsider,
very close, but as an outsider to her experience watching this,
it was one of the most beautiful experiences that I've
ever had of watching a person be a fucking person.
And I don't know to do with that other than
(15:39):
be inspired by it. And believe me, if she were
sitting here next to me, she would say that's not
how it is on most of the days, or she
would have some comment.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
That was right, like I am yours poster.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yeah, charming and endearing and the same like again, you
can hold both these things at the same time. That's
part of what the human experience is, and it was
it was foundly affected me, and I'm still I don't
know how to halley up all of the profundities. But
it was just absolutely beautiful to watch someone be in
(16:11):
this soup and I was very very inspired by it.
I don't have to do with it other than just
to cherish it. And it seems like a different waypoint,
a different input than I have carried around for most
of my life about what it meant to grieve or
to be human. It was a better input. That's the
kind of conditioning that I want, not the other kinds
(16:34):
of conditioning that say that you're, you know again thinking
about your the title of it, so you know it's
okay that you're not okay.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I love that I'm leaving that beat in there because
I adore what you just said there. And I also
can total I don't know your friend, but I can
totally hear them being like, I am not your inspirational poster.
Dude me in your logger, don't do that to me.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I'm not going to do, you know. I was just like, but.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Here's the thing, though, is one like I love this vision.
I love this vision for you, I love this vision
for myself, I love this vision for everybody, Like knowing
that you can be exactly who you are in this
moment and not give a shit what anybody else thinks
about it, because you are doing exactly what you need,
Like this is what grief is like, right, Like crying
(17:28):
so hard you're vomiting, and also laughing hysterically, and also
saying the things that you're thinking and knowing that it's
okay to say them out loud, like this is what
I want for everybody. There's no solution to this stuff,
Like we're not going to like magic wand and make
this not suck. And do you have places in yourself
(17:50):
and with the people in your life where you can
be whatever you are in this moment and be welcome
to that? And so I want to reflect that back
to you. The fact that she did that in your
presence means that you have created a relationship and created
a identity, created a being with whom it is safe
(18:14):
to show up as your full self and know that
you're not going to get talked out of any of
those expressions.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
It has brought a particular posse of our friends so
close together. I just I observed that too.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Chase and I talked for a really long time expands
the course of two whole episodes, but I answered a
lot of questions that Chase had about grief. So before
we get back to our conversation, I want to tell
you about two ways that you can ask me your
questions about grief, no matter what kind of grief you're carrying.
Once a month I host a live Q and A
(18:57):
on Patreon. It is a time to get to talk
with me directly, to get your questions answered, and to
listen in to the answers of the other people in
our Patreon community. It is a really sweet group and
we would love to have you. All of the information
is at patreon dot com, backslash Megan Divine, or you
can find the link in the show notes. If you
would much rather talk to me privately, there's a new
(19:19):
option for that. The link to apply for individual sessions
is in the show notes. Okay, back to my conversation
with Creative Live founder Chase Jarvis.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And you know, this is sort of like a lot
of people think of creativity as an individual act. I'm
really big on the community aspects around creating, collaboration, co conspirators,
and I do see there's an interesting parallel that's emerging
like that, you know, if you're the average of the
people you spend the most time with and if you can,
you know, create a community where you do feel safe
(19:52):
and connected and all these other things that you talked
about me witnessing and her. There's also a line that
you said, which is highlighted in your book, that grief
is not a problem to be solved, that's an experience
to be carried. That's insanely powerful. But it goes back
to this idea of becoming a human and that all
(20:13):
these like, all these inputs are it's hard to cherish them,
but you know, you do the research on people who
are on their death Bread Sea, our mutual friend Michael,
you know, and the regret, I think the most number
one regret is that they sort of did not live.
I don't want to get this wrong, but I think
(20:34):
it's that they lived a life that was directed by
someone else rather than by themselves. I don't know. Again,
it's sort of it's a very amorphous soup, but I
think there's some kernel of wisdom and it does probably
go back to this, you know, identity and reinvention point
that you've traced through our conversation. We kind of make
(20:55):
it okay, Like you see Madonna reinvent herself and it's cool.
And then we think about you know, inventing and reinventing ourselves,
and it somehow carries this like awkward hard weight or
it seems disingenuous because who you were yesterday, that's who
you are. Your friends from high school know you, and like,
but what's wrong with reinvention or recasting our identity in
(21:19):
a new light? After we go inward and then just said,
you know what, this is the direction I'm going? Why
is that difficult? You know? What's the phrase? We look
at the tree that has grown different than most other trees,
and it makes perfect sense to us, right, Oh cool,
the tree had to go like this and like this
so that it could reach the light, or the roots
(21:40):
came sort of above ground here because it needed to
do x or that makes sense to us. But we
look at a human and we like we scratch our heads, right,
I wonder why they well, you know, they did that
because that's how they needed That's what they needed to
do in order to survive. And then we also if
that person wanted to reinvent themselves, like ah, but.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Do you really is that really a good idea. Yeah,
don't you think?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, it's an interesting thought soup.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
It is an interesting thought soup. The rude baga in
the thought soup that I'm gonna pick up there is
like think about you know when people go through an
intense experience whatever that is, and people are like, well,
don't let it change you, right, like you're still the
person you used to be, Like this insistence that you
not change when things happen in your life, even great
(22:31):
things like don't look the money change but like this,
like I love this. I love this image of the
tree right, like the tree like if they're shitting the
way it grows around it to get to the light
and we don't look at the tree and be like,
don't let that boulder change you? Like no, okay, So
again like this continual process of invention reinvention assessment and
(22:55):
not in the like not in the like judgy bitchy
way of assessment, but like in a sesse of like
whose life is this? And given what I'm living right
now or what I'm experiencing good bad in the middle indifferent,
like what is mine in this? And how do I create?
(23:16):
What is more? And more mine? I really feel like
that is the narrative arc that you've shared with me
and with us today, but also like I can see
that in my very curated view of your career and
your pattern, like this willingness and insistence, whether it's in
public view or not, to examine your own invisibility, what's
(23:41):
invisible in your own life, what invisible forces are at play,
and who you know yourself to be, and how you
show up in the world and questioning them and playing
with them and playing with that shit is not always easy,
and sometimes it's really incredibly painful. And I'm really thankful
that you showed up and you were willing to talk
about that incredible painful part of being human.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Thank you very much again for giving me the space
to do this stuff. Usually go on podcasts and talk
about work with people to make documentary films or hit
music or and you know, something that has a different tenor,
and like, I'm still in the process of evaluating. I
don't know if they're judging I'm going to use it
(24:27):
because it's because it's loaded, but sort of the role
that almost Dying has had in this process for me.
What's your take on that? M It seemed pretty like
line the.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Sandy Yeah, I mean, how could it not be right?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
One confession there is that I remember actively programming against
using that as a vehicle for which I wanted to
seek change.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It took me ten years to vocalize it.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Wow, yeah, that's really interesting, right this, Like here is
this literally life altering event in which I almost died
and I will not let it affect me.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, some film even, Wow, yeah, I have a film
that I've watched it.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
That is really interesting. And you know, I don't want
a therapy you, but like it reminds me. What that
reminds me of is is when you and I were
talking about the grief inherent in success and the grief
inherent in identity, Like how quickly you went to I
know it's not that bad. I know it's not as
(25:41):
bad as anybody else. Sorry, if this is offensive to you,
I don't mean to take up any space with my
being human. Like there there's an interesting thread to my
mind connecting those two events. Right here is this immense
thing that happened that it sounds like in the moment
of that you understood that it was immense and in
(26:04):
the very very very clear, very clearly and in the
very next adjacent moment, there was some story, there was
some identity that said it is not cool to identify
with us. Yep, this is not for me, right, So
there's there is something really interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Oh for sure, it felt like a cheap gimmick in
a film or something. M It was interesting to have
not processed it until I do a lot of morning
pages Julia Cameron way writing in The Biscuits, early morning writing,
you know, two to three unstructured pages, handwritten, just flow
(26:45):
of thoughts for people who are not familiar with Julia
Cameron's work. And it was in that process that it
came up. And then it was sort of like trying
to decide whether or not to put it in my book.
And I remember even not like, eh, not wanting to,
and my editor was like, I don't see how you
(27:05):
can't put it in there. And it was a sort
of a revisiting of that. But isn't this just sort
of like a a cheap cliche to you know, put
in there, And doesn't that sort of actually undermine the
authenticity or the veracity of the narrative. And you know,
now now that's sort of out there in the world.
(27:26):
It almost feels sort of matter of fact y and
I feel better about it. But I have not quite
wrestled with the fact that there was a period where
that was not open for business. I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I think that's again therapists had on like that is
that is deep territory for exploration, right, Like how did
it serve me to not look at that event? Because
it clearly it served something right and we don't know
what that is. Right back in the beginning of our conversation,
I went on my rant about the transactional lens that
(28:01):
gets put on art and the creative process, like ye,
you take something terrible and you turn it into something magical,
and like wooh, this is the whole reason for existence,
is to turn pain into a gallery opening. And I
wonder about that the resistance to that mechanism, like that
there's some part of you that, in this moment, having
(28:22):
survived something that you very easily could have not survived,
part of you was like, I will not become a
transformation story. I will not become a cliche. This will
not be mine. And you know that there's like this,
like this rejection of the flattening of human experience, and
I will not even do it to myself to the
(28:43):
extent that I will not allow myself to feel the
impact of what just happened, because it is so tempting
to flatten that into a transaction.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
I think you're onto something to me. One of the
main themes here is around invention and reinvention and the
you know, the space. Presumably listeners on your show are
they came in to know you because of their personal
experiences and someone recommended you, And I think all the
(29:14):
ways that you know, I've heard about you and your work,
you know, it's it's in the that context, and so
maybe your listeners are predisposed to understand that they look,
there's you know, grief comes in many shapes and sizes,
and trying to label it and pin it down is
actually a radical disservice to the you know again, to
(29:37):
what it means to be human. And yet here I
am like, well shit, I'm guessing that if you know
what's the in the particular lives of the universal and
a fun just one dude who's over here really struggling
with it, I can only imagine that there are others.
So I guess this is that you're not a lone speech.
(29:57):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, this is why we do that, right, This is
why we make space for these conversations because there is
so much under the surface for everyone, for everyone, And
until we see and understand and apply some skill sets
to having these deeper conversations about the reality of being human,
(30:21):
then we just lose so much.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I think that's insightful. You just lose so much. I
don't know what it is, but it's like there's a
that's a big piece of it. I don't know what
it is either, but maybe the fear lest thing you understand.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah, I think that the it is always going to move.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Maybe that's by design, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I think I think so. I mean I think, like,
how bored would you be if you had the final, final,
final answers as a curious mind, as a creative mind,
as somebody who is in did in the human condition
and all the ways that that shows up and all
the ways to come into more alignment with your own
(31:07):
creative life. Right, Yeah, there is no I'm going to
go all philosopher. Somebody told me the other day that
talking to me that I was like human xanax, and
I was like, Okay, maybe I'll take that. But like
the whole soothing philosopher voice here with like there is
no frickin destination, there is no time when you have
all of this stuff figured out and there's nothing left
(31:30):
to explore. I just don't think that that's a thing.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
That's not a thing can be a thing.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
There are two things that I want to pull out
and reflect back to you as we close up. So
one it's more of a statement than a question. One
thing that our mutual friend told me to He literally said,
watch for how kind he is. I think you'll really
appreciate it. And so this was a direction from our
(31:58):
mutual friend as he was like helping you prefer for
our time together. He said, you know, his kindness and
vulnerability in the business and world of success is really legendary,
and I think you're really going to appreciate that. And
I want to reflect that back that our our mutual friend,
Michael was correct. Like in every in everything that you've
spoken about, you know, I've seen you speak about this
stuff with with kindness and with insight, and even therapist
(32:22):
had on again, even when you came up against your
own disqualifying your own experience, you came back to it
with kindness, so I saw that, and I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
I'm very grateful. That is a. There's a world of
work there. Again, if you're if you can be kind
to yourself, what is it. The most important words in
the world that we say to ourselves are the ones
we say to our most important words in the world
are the ones we say to ourselves, like I'm that
is a. That's work there, that is work there.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, kindness, kindness to self is one of the most
difficult things in the world.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Now, it's so easy to be kind to other people,
oh so easy.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
For ten years from now, I've been running a course
called Writing Your Grief and there's a prompt in there
about kindness to self, and it is the hardest prompt
in the entire thirty prompt series. It's so hard to
apply the kindness and the inclusion, the acceptance and the
support that you give to the world, it's so hard
to apply that to yourself. That's like part seventy seven
(33:25):
of our conversation. But I do want to wind us
up because I want to respect your time and all
of this stuff. And the last thing that I want
to ask you is the thing that I ask everybody.
Has we come to a close. Here Now you are
and have been walking into yet again defining and redefining
yourself and exploring some old territory that maybe has been
(33:49):
waiting for you patiently, patiently, you know, so knowing what
you know and living what you've lived and exploring what
you've exc bored. What does hope look like for you?
Does it exist at all in the in the sphere
of Chase hmm?
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Hope to me feels like a relationship to myself. I'm
very much a relationship person, and I can't say that
I haven't had a relationship with myself. Again, I keep
talking about the most important words that we say and whatnot,
and but I feel like it just it comes back.
When I feel hopeful, there is a sort of like ah,
(34:35):
you get more and more glimpses of the connection that
you can make with yourself. That doesn't feel profound. It feels,
you know, maybe even tragically simple. But that's that is
like what I when I feel hopeful, it's like I
just like one percent more connected every day or when,
(34:58):
or I don't know what the interval is. But again,
it's a belief in yourself, a connection to yourself, an
allowance for yourself, kindness to yourself that feels hopeful when
I think about even just the word hope, Like God,
you know what, it's maybe two steps forward, one step back,
(35:19):
but that's promising to me. I know. It builds stillness,
the relationship that I'm continually forming with myself. To me,
that's beautiful, like the stillness sitting in a forest. I
was in the woods the other day by myself for
the first time in a long time. It's amazing, and
(35:39):
there was just a stillness there and that that felt
like hope, and it felt like sort of like my
relationship with myself and the natural world and others, and
it just again, maybe that's the ramdass thing. It's just
a continually you know, coming home, we're all walking our something,
walking one another home. I forget, we're just walking each Yeah,
something like that. Yeah, I don't know. That's what.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
When I think of hope, I love that it feels
very practical, which which I super enjoy. Like I'm all
about that practical, functional hope. And it's a really it's
a really internal hope for you that's not sort of
subject to external narratives or ideas. Yeah, maybe that's.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Where the wisdom. Yeah, I'm packing a little wisdom. Is
it okay to put yourself on the back every once
in a while? Oh yes, please, right, maybe that's what
I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Good job, so, good job, good job self. All right,
So we are going to link to your latest book
and your website. Is there anything else that you want
people to know about where to find you or what
they might explore next?
Speaker 1 (36:45):
No, I think I tend to really focus on creativity
the human spirit, and if that is of interest for
any of your existing listeners might be, you know, on
your show here for a particular reason. But if those
areas that Megan I have shared today in this conversation
(37:05):
are of interest to you, and the fact that we
can you know, what we can create with this one,
you know, precious life that we have. That's I'm just
at Chase Jervis everywhere on the internet. It's a good
way to find me. And the book I think is
more valuable than you know. We all just gravitate to
the social feeds, which are are nice and fine, but
you know the work, you know, it really comes out
(37:27):
in the book, I think, and that book is called
Creative Calling. Yeah, thank you so much for being a
guest in the show. And again, I've seen the very
profound effect that your work has on others. And I
shared the experience of my one friend. But that's not
the only experience that I could share. There would be others.
(37:49):
But I'm grateful for you and thank you again for
having me as a guest, maybe a non traditional guest.
And I do think my mutual friend or our mutual
friend for introducing Yeah, maybe you will be a guest
on my show one day.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Ooh, I would love that.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Swapsies swapsies.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
All right, everybody, I will be right back with your
questions to carry with you right after this break. Each week,
I leave you with some questions to carry with you
until we meet again. Now, this section of my very
(38:28):
long two part conversation with Chase Jarvis had me wondering
about the things we bury, the impossible things that we survive,
and then like make this decision to tell ourselves like, nope,
I am not going to have this be what defines me,
and in the process of distancing ourselves from those intense things,
(38:49):
sort of leaving this foundational experience of grief just like ignored.
It's fascinating and I think I think each one of
us probably has some of those foundational experiences that we
were like, Nah, I'm putting this away. I don't need this.
It's fascinating. So that discovery of self, right, like the
(39:12):
creativity of exploring your own beliefs and your own stories
and your own habits, that's a powerful act. It's something
that's available to all of us at any time. What
questions do you have about your own life and the
ways that subterranean stories affect you? I think that's a
(39:32):
really cool question to carry with you. But maybe maybe
you have that question to carry with you, and maybe
you found something else to hold on to. No matter
what you found in this show to carry with you,
I'd love to hear about it. So let me know
if you have thoughts on what we covered. Tag refuge
and grief on all the social platforms so I can
hear how this conversation affected you. Be sure to listen
(39:55):
to part one of my conversation with Chase Jarvis if
you haven't yet, and if you want to ask me
personal questions about your own life or get some help
excavating the stories you carry, be sure to check the
show notes. Four ways to work with me directly follow
the show at It's Okay Pod on TikTok and Refuge
Grief everywhere else. To see video clips from the show,
(40:17):
use the hashtag It's Okay pod on all the platforms,
so not only I can find you, but others can too.
None of us are entirely okay, and it's time we
start talking about that together. Yeah, it's okay that you're
not okay. You're in good company. That's it for this week.
(40:39):
Remember to subscribe to the show, leave a review for
the show. Those reviews help make the show easier to find,
which furthers my mission of getting more people to have
interesting conversations about difficult things. Also, your reviews are really
special to me and it brings me great joy to
read them. Coming up next week, Oh boy, Coming up
(41:01):
next week, Friends, it is Valerie Core, author of Sin
No Stranger and truly one of the most inspiring, eloquent,
kind hearted, and ferocious people I have ever met. Be
sure to follow the show on your favorite platforms so
you do not miss an episode. Want more on these topics, Look,
(41:21):
grief is everywhere. As my dad says, daily life is
full of everyday grief that we don't call grief. Learning
how to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes
or dismissive statements is an important skill for everyone, whether
you're trying to support a friend going through a hard time,
or you work in the helping professions, get help to
have those conversations with trainings, professional resources, and my best
(41:42):
selling book, It's Okay that You're Not Okay. At Megandivine
dot Co. It's Okay that You're Not Okay. The podcast
is written and produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer
is Amy Brown, co produced by Elizabeth Fozzio, with logistical
and social media support from Micah. Post production and editing
by Houston Tilly. Music provided by Wave Crush and background
(42:05):
noise provided by the Endless Spring drone of chainsaws cleaning
up after the winter rains. Even now, after all this time,
Host
Megan Devine
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