March 13, 2025 • 20 mins
Are attachment styles a life sentence?
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
So how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I'm great, This twenty twenty five has been an amazing
You're so.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Far Really that's awesome. Okay, So I have a couple.
I have a dating story, but I want to make
sure that if I tell my dating story, there's take
away from it. So I have a great dating story also,
I think that. So I've been on the attachment style
side of TikTok, which is amazing because I think someone
(00:41):
came up with that. I don't know who it was,
and I want to give them credit. I actually want
to have them on here. Whoever came up with the
anxious attachment dismissive avoidant? Is that something that is now
commonly known or that's still very niche because I don't
think my friends know. My friends don't know about it.
But my friends also don't wear foundation.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So the books called the Attached I'm nearly and Rachel
Hiller might be around twenty fourteen, and they given permission
to teach their stuff in My course Love you.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Really, Yeah, it's sort of funny that I brought it up.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Then, Yeah, it's become sort of ubiquitous, but you know
how everything goes on the internet, it kind of gets
watered down and passed around, and it's a photocopy of
a photocopy of the real thing. If you want to
understand attachment styles, it's a really easy reader. You can
go to their website and they have a quiz and
you can find out what attachment style you are and
what attachment style your boyfriend is. And I think it's.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
It's the book called I'm going to have them on
It's called Attached h Okay, Well are they normal people?
Are they doctors? I don't care. I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Top of my head. I think one of them is
a doctor. Not positive, but it's basically childhood attachments theory
overlaid onto adult relationships.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
The first person who ever told me about that was Sia,
and I didn't even know what she was talking about,
but it made sense, okay. And so people assigned so
many different things. What's your love language? Or there's another
thing like I forgot what it was, what's your there's
another thing that like people define is it it's like
either a number or call I don't.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Know, yeah, people or something like that.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I forgot. There's a who can you know people do?
People talk about astrology, People talk about a bunch of
different things, but I do want to talk for a
minute about these attachment styles because it's something that my
audience doesn't think of when dating or choosing a partner,
or even evaluating their own spouse that they've been with
for years. And I was talking to my girlfriend the
(02:35):
other day, and the people who are dismissive avoidant are
textbook like textbook, and it's so crazy because the way
that they are would be so inexplicable. Besides this theory,
like literally people that will just shut down. They can't
(02:59):
deal with any version of commitment or really deep communication
or conveying emotions, and they don't like conflict. And it
doesn't have to be that someone was from an outlandishly
abusive child, So it could be that just nobody expressed
(03:19):
emotion in their household at all, and so their parents
seemingly had a good marriage, but no one expressed your
supposed to keep things inside and this person as they
And it's for us to think about our kids too,
and how we deal with our kids. If you're a
person who's come from that, you know to intervene in
that with your kids, because they're gonna then be those
people that won't express emotion and run from it. And
(03:42):
it's serious, like it's a serious thing that that and
it's the way that it presents itself is that somebody
is sort of a dick that will blow you off,
will not respond properly to communication and text. But it's
supposed to be based in deep insecurity.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So that's a great leaping off point, Bethany, And just
true your listeners do a real easy working definition of
it because we're again, we're it's easy to talk different languages.
What you're referring to is avoiding attachment style, and avoiding
attachment style can best be defined as someone who claims
to want intimacy but unintentionally undermines the intimacy all the time.
(04:27):
So it's the guy who runs hot and cold. He
says he loves you, but his actions are inconsistent. It's
the guy who says he wants to spend the rest
of his life with you, but when you talk about marriage,
he shuts down the conversation. So those people can drive
you crazy because they everything they say is the right thing,
(04:47):
but their actions are always undermining their claims.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
They literally are asking babies to run a marathon like
they can't even walk and I would I'm sorry, I
would just say, based on everything I've heard and read,
peace out, Like that's a fucking project. Like it's like
not even to like try to figure this thing out,
like life's too short, because then you are the giving tree, Bethanie.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
You know that you've earned your love for me in
a very short period of time. But this is why
I love you. You are a natural at this kind
of thing. It's exactly what I'd say when people say,
so what do I do with my avoidant? Don't date
an avoidant because you shouldn't have to drag a guy
into a relationship with you or convince him that you
(05:34):
are worthy of his long term attention. You don't need
a project. So here's the good news, A couple pieces
of good news for everybody who gets freaked out about
attachment styles. Twenty They say in the book about twenty
five percent of people are avoidant, a right, So that
means twenty five percent are anxious, about fifty percent are secure,
(05:54):
which means able to form intimate attachments. And your attachment
style is malleable. Just because you are one thing doesn't
mean you have to be that way for life. It's
not a disease. It's a thing that with therapy making
better choices in love. If you're an anxious woman who
always feels very needy around men, choose a secure guy
who treats you well, a lot of your anxiety goes away,
(06:17):
so you could become a more secure person by making
better choices.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yes, I was going to say, it seems like a
square is a rhomis romis, isn't it always is in
a square? Like an anxious person could like like cut
the sauce a little, like take some of the salt
out of the sauce that they can change a little bit.
It doesn't feel like an avoidant ken. It feels like
it's deep, deeply ingrained. Of course there are exceptions, but
(06:44):
it's a fucking project. Anxious could be I guess a
project too, But like you said, if you're meeting them
even halfway, they could calm down a little.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, they're both people have to be intentional about changing
both themselves and their choice and heartners. So I've got
a couple good friends who are avoidant, and they're good,
they're good guys, they're working on it. I still think
they'd be really high risk bet, and that's why they're
(07:13):
multi divorced or single in their fifties. It's it's not
a complete accident. Even if I could say they're really
good guys, they might not be good guys to date.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Right, So and the people, you know, I said the
other day, inconsistent means inconsiderate period. It doesn't matter what
the intention is, what they did as a baby, I
had a fucked up childhood to like, we don't I'm
not really interested in what happened to you as a baby,
(07:42):
and that's why you're inconsistent, and now you're inconsiderate. I
don't really give a fuck because I have to operate
it now in twenty twenty five, not on what abusive
childhood I endure. So it's kind of like a touching story.
But we don't what women women date down so badly
that it's it's just one of the things I really
want to convey. And and we give cookies for such
(08:05):
minimal effort, Like it turns out that the right person
could probably do the right person's minimum is the wrong
person's maximum. Like it feels like we just, oh, he's
gave me a flower, Like everyone's so excited, Oh my god,
he texted about like it feels like it's just set
(08:27):
up for women to be jacked up about men doing
the bare minimum, Like it's just across the board. You
see all over the place women like jumping up and
down and being so excited for like the bare minimum,
and we have to switch that.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I agree, you know, you know my central metaphor. I
saw your new website. It's gorgeous. I mean, you're you're
running with it, and I think it's great that you're
popularizing the idea. And basically because of how people were raised.
And again I'm not a psychologist, don't pretend to be
a psychologist. If you have a controlling mother or who's
(09:03):
highly critical, and you have a father who doesn't show
you love or maybe they got divorced when you were
really young, you spend your life in need of love, attention, affection,
You crave it, you can't get it from your childhood,
and then you play that out in every relationship where
you default, make yourself the intern, and if someone throws
you a buck for working for them, you're like, oh
(09:25):
my god, this is the best dollar I've ever had.
And that's what it's like to be an anxious attachment
style woman. That's why they called bread crumbing. A guy
could text once a week, Oh my god, he was
thinking of me. He hasn't seen me in three weeks,
but he was thinking of me today. So any little
thing could be enough to keep her going when she
has accepted. Well, that's what love is. They're crumbs. It's
(09:46):
not the consistent love that, for example, you show your child.
So I always encourage women who are of a certain
age who have children. Think of how you love your child.
You deserve to be loved that way by a man.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Well, I think I'm a combination because if someone doesn't
treat me properly, I won't stand for it, and I'll
ignore and I'll avoid while feeling anxiously attached. But it's
almost like a gamification of it. It's like, not what's
coming naturally inside my body is anxious attachment, what the
actions are is avoidant attachment. Does that make any sense?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Makes perfect sense? And it makes sense. And in our
limited offscreen interaction, it seems to me that you are
an expert in the gamification of dating and understanding the
power struggles and the leap is letting go of the power.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Well, the leap is not playing a game, because if
you play a game, you get a game player, correct,
and it's not based in reality, and so that that's
been something to do. Also, I do think there is
a level of game. You can't be too desperate. I
do think in the world there is a level of game.
There's a tight, slight hint of the rules or whatever
that book was about. But I don't think that's the
main thing that can be, you know, the shiny exterior
(11:18):
to get somebody in the restaurant, but once they're in,
that has to go away.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Can I share an idea that's relevant to this? So
it's a termin that I used, maybe someone else made
it up too years ago. I call it mirroring, and
mirroring is basically responding instead of initiating. So you can
be in your ceo feminine power and you're still waiting
for the guy to take the lead. He texts you,
(11:43):
You text them back warmly, enthusiastically, quickly, no game playing.
He calls you. You called him back, Hey, I want
to see you this weekend if you're free. You say
I want to see you too. You're not saying, oh,
I'm busy. It's not any power struggle. It is just warm, receptive, enthusiastic,
and he is until it it's not yeah, till it's
not what I'm saying. You're never initiating and chasing, You're
(12:05):
just responding quickly, warmly and fansastic. And so that works really,
really well almost across the board with any guy with
any balls who shows any interest.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Until a point you have to sometimes initiate and do
that you have just sometimes initiated.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yes and no. My wife never initiated. I mean again,
it's not like I'm super alpha male. But if I
wanted to see her, I would see her. If I
wanted to call her, I would call her. She didn't
have to coerce me to. The only thing she ever
did was when we were about one month into dating
and I was an entrepreneur and she had a conventional job.
She would call me at five o'clock and be like,
want to talk And I would still be working because
(12:40):
it's only five o'clock. And she's like, I get the
sense that you don't want to be bothered at work
at five o'clock. I said, yeah, I work later hours
than you do. She goes, here's all I need from you.
I'm your girlfriend. I want to feel connected to you
every day, every night before you go to sleep, just
give me a call a sakeod night. I don't care
if it's eleven thirty pm. I just want to hear
your voice. And I pulled that stupid guy stuff like
I don't know, I don't always have something to say
(13:02):
every day. She was, this is what I need from you.
Can you do that? Yeah? It was pretty reasonable. And
then for the rest of the time we were dating,
she never had to call me. It's not that she couldn't.
It's not like I'd run away if she did. By
my point is she didn't have to because why I
was the guy who really wanted a job with her.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
So let's talk about I've talked about breakups a little
a lot of girls when I do my dating university
on social media really respond with I really needed to
hear this today when you're discussing with them not reaching out,
staying strong, almost like they're on a juice cleanse and
(13:41):
you got a or a like not drinking alcohol or
quitting smoking, and you're really trying to help someone with
that addiction because it actually can be and like an addiction,
it might not be based in actual reality. You could
be chasing the dragon. It could always make you feel bad.
You go back to do the drug and it makes
you feel worse than the first time you ever did it,
(14:02):
and you can't get there, but there's something in it happening.
And so there's a discussion about muting and blocking. So
one thing is for someone to say to someone else,
please don't contact me. I think that's easier said than done.
That's something that people say in courses, but when someone's
(14:24):
going to really do it, it's going to be harder
because saying that means you'll never know if the person
really is not gonning. You'll never know if the person
really wanted to reach out. So on social media, if
someone says something nasty to me or anything I just
don't like, I'll just block them. I don't mute them,
I'll block them. I don't care. You need to know
(14:45):
that I blocked you, And maybe it seems hostile. I
don't care. It's not for them, it's for me, like
it's for me. And so if there was a situation
where I was breaking up with someone and it didn't
make me feel good, it felt like either an addiction
or or just something that was like a gnat that
you just can't you know what I mean. You know,
maybe you're bored. Maybe you're bored, you have nothing else going.
(15:07):
I am a firm believer of block And it doesn't
matter what the other person thinks, because you're not you're
feeling that the person doesn't make you feel good or
feel happy, so you don't give a shit about the
other person. In my opinion, like you're doing your self preserving.
So if it means because I always say, get off
my timeline, like if someone makes you feel bad in
any way or you know it's not right, get the
(15:27):
fuck off my timeline. If you don't have the courage
to say that to someone for whatever reason, you just
block them everywhere. Is that? What do you think about that?
Is that like immature or wrong? Because I'm a big fan.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
No, it's not immature, wrong and use the right words.
It is about self preservation. So it doesn't mean after
breakup you can still like someone, you can still love someone,
you could recognize that their presence in your life is
not allowing you to heal properly. It's like picking out
a scab and wondering why it's not healing. Whether if
you're texting and he says baby, I miss you, and
(15:58):
you say, hey, baby, I miss you and maybe we
should get together one last time. All that stuff doesn't
allow you to heal The best breakup story I ever had,
and this is again it's gonna be an ironic story.
I broke up with a lovely person after eight months.
I didn't think I was going to marry her. But
she's a great person and I cared about her, like
I really. I have nothing bad to say about her
(16:19):
to this day. She blocked me on text, blocked me.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
On social rude, ended it, and then she blocked you.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yes, this is this is this is textbook. This is
what I would tell women to do. But it's what
happened to me.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
You with her.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I ended it with her.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
We're still talking a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I tried to let her down gently and say, hey,
we could stay friends. I really want to know that
you're doing well. Yeah, cuts me off. The next time
I see her, no, no shit is on Facebook. It's
a picture of her and her husband.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
But you know that she cut you off because you
tried to reach out to be like, hey, what's up
or hi? Checking in?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
This is very much you use the word addiction. But
it's not it's not the it's not the wrong one.
It's actually the right word. Love lights up the same
pleasure centers of in your brain is meth and coke.
That's why it feels like a roller coaster. That's why
every song is about love being a drug. It absolutely
does give you dopamine, serotonin, nouropinephrin, pseudophedrin. These are the
(17:15):
things that make you high highs, low lows. And you
got to balance out, especially after that breakup, because there's
no putting Humpty dumpty back together again. So the self,
the best thing for self preservation is to do all
the things you said. If you're an alcoholic, don't keep
on buying alcohol and try to resist it in your house.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Wow Okay, so yeah we agree. Like it's cutthroat, it's
tough shit program.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
If you could do it from compassion, like it could
be like, you know, Brad, I love you, I miss you,
I think about you all the time. That is exactly
why I can't talk to you.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I don't even think that's necessary, but I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
But Bethany, we're talking about taking the high road. Maybe
he was a dick, but I'm saying you can cut
someone off with compassion.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I don't think that that's the high. I don't. I
don't agree. I don't think you need to. You can
say that at some point, but it's still giving away
some of your power. And I feel like, as a woman,
you want to feel good at the end and not
I love you, but so that's why I can't speak
to you. I think that's sappy, and I don't disagree,
(18:18):
I really do. I think you can piece out if
if someone was amazing to you and you broke up
with them, which has like if you broke up with them,
you hurt them, and you.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Need to there's less of it needs to block them
if you broke up with them. It's when you can't
deal with the breakup.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
You could have broken up with them, but you still
want the hit of the drug. You could know that
the drug isn't good for you. It's not something that
you can sustain on. But you But you know what
I'm saying. I'm saying, whatever it is, if the person
isn't making you feel good, I don't think you need
to explain that. They already know that. That's obvious. The
reasons why it's not a mystery. This whole thing why
(18:54):
you broke up is why you broke up.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I get that. At the same time, if we're the seat,
I think it's better to bring someone into the office
and let them go and give them severance.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
And you know, it depends on the situation. Then yes,
sometimes the building no, if the person, yeah, sometimes the
person needs to be escorted out of.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
The building, right, And so these are different use cases. I'm, i'm.
Most of my breakups were not throwing plates. They were
two people who realized they couldn't.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
No, it doesn't have to be throwing plates, though, But
like I could think of two breakups that were significant,
and one was super classy and while you're still angry
and you still want to look good and make it
feel bad, it does not require any version of blocking.
And one was just toxic, even though it wasn't intentional,
but it was one of those like, inconsistent means inconsiderate,
and to me, that means peace the fuck out, and
(19:45):
I don't have to explain anything.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Listen, you end up in the exact same place where
we can agree. Holding on to X's as friends when
you don't really just feel like just friends with them
is kind of a lie to yourself and illusion like
somehow we're gonna we're gonna make this work somehow. Again,
we were texting privately, and sometimes it's just hard. It's
(20:07):
hard to let go of something that was good but
can't be great.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
So we're gonna land on that. We're gonna land on.
All roads lead to Rome, and you have to decide
what works for you, what recipe works for you. You
have to be really honest with yourself, but you're gonna
get to the same place, which is no contact because
it's it's it's toxic. Okay, I like that, all right,
so we can we can agree on that.
So how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I'm great, This twenty twenty five has been an amazing
You're so.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Far Really that's awesome. Okay, So I have a couple.
I have a dating story, but I want to make
sure that if I tell my dating story, there's take
away from it. So I have a great dating story also,
I think that. So I've been on the attachment style
side of TikTok, which is amazing because I think someone
(00:41):
came up with that. I don't know who it was,
and I want to give them credit. I actually want
to have them on here. Whoever came up with the
anxious attachment dismissive avoidant? Is that something that is now
commonly known or that's still very niche because I don't
think my friends know. My friends don't know about it.
But my friends also don't wear foundation.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So the books called the Attached I'm nearly and Rachel
Hiller might be around twenty fourteen, and they given permission
to teach their stuff in My course Love you.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Really, Yeah, it's sort of funny that I brought it up.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Then, Yeah, it's become sort of ubiquitous, but you know
how everything goes on the internet, it kind of gets
watered down and passed around, and it's a photocopy of
a photocopy of the real thing. If you want to
understand attachment styles, it's a really easy reader. You can
go to their website and they have a quiz and
you can find out what attachment style you are and
what attachment style your boyfriend is. And I think it's.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
It's the book called I'm going to have them on
It's called Attached h Okay, Well are they normal people?
Are they doctors? I don't care. I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Top of my head. I think one of them is
a doctor. Not positive, but it's basically childhood attachments theory
overlaid onto adult relationships.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
The first person who ever told me about that was Sia,
and I didn't even know what she was talking about,
but it made sense, okay. And so people assigned so
many different things. What's your love language? Or there's another
thing like I forgot what it was, what's your there's
another thing that like people define is it it's like
either a number or call I don't.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Know, yeah, people or something like that.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I forgot. There's a who can you know people do?
People talk about astrology, People talk about a bunch of
different things, but I do want to talk for a
minute about these attachment styles because it's something that my
audience doesn't think of when dating or choosing a partner,
or even evaluating their own spouse that they've been with
for years. And I was talking to my girlfriend the
(02:35):
other day, and the people who are dismissive avoidant are
textbook like textbook, and it's so crazy because the way
that they are would be so inexplicable. Besides this theory,
like literally people that will just shut down. They can't
(02:59):
deal with any version of commitment or really deep communication
or conveying emotions, and they don't like conflict. And it
doesn't have to be that someone was from an outlandishly
abusive child, So it could be that just nobody expressed
(03:19):
emotion in their household at all, and so their parents
seemingly had a good marriage, but no one expressed your
supposed to keep things inside and this person as they
And it's for us to think about our kids too,
and how we deal with our kids. If you're a
person who's come from that, you know to intervene in
that with your kids, because they're gonna then be those
people that won't express emotion and run from it. And
(03:42):
it's serious, like it's a serious thing that that and
it's the way that it presents itself is that somebody
is sort of a dick that will blow you off,
will not respond properly to communication and text. But it's
supposed to be based in deep insecurity.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So that's a great leaping off point, Bethany, And just
true your listeners do a real easy working definition of
it because we're again, we're it's easy to talk different languages.
What you're referring to is avoiding attachment style, and avoiding
attachment style can best be defined as someone who claims
to want intimacy but unintentionally undermines the intimacy all the time.
(04:27):
So it's the guy who runs hot and cold. He
says he loves you, but his actions are inconsistent. It's
the guy who says he wants to spend the rest
of his life with you, but when you talk about marriage,
he shuts down the conversation. So those people can drive
you crazy because they everything they say is the right thing,
(04:47):
but their actions are always undermining their claims.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
They literally are asking babies to run a marathon like
they can't even walk and I would I'm sorry, I
would just say, based on everything I've heard and read,
peace out, Like that's a fucking project. Like it's like
not even to like try to figure this thing out,
like life's too short, because then you are the giving tree, Bethanie.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
You know that you've earned your love for me in
a very short period of time. But this is why
I love you. You are a natural at this kind
of thing. It's exactly what I'd say when people say,
so what do I do with my avoidant? Don't date
an avoidant because you shouldn't have to drag a guy
into a relationship with you or convince him that you
(05:34):
are worthy of his long term attention. You don't need
a project. So here's the good news, A couple pieces
of good news for everybody who gets freaked out about
attachment styles. Twenty They say in the book about twenty
five percent of people are avoidant, a right, So that
means twenty five percent are anxious, about fifty percent are secure,
(05:54):
which means able to form intimate attachments. And your attachment
style is malleable. Just because you are one thing doesn't
mean you have to be that way for life. It's
not a disease. It's a thing that with therapy making
better choices in love. If you're an anxious woman who
always feels very needy around men, choose a secure guy
who treats you well, a lot of your anxiety goes away,
(06:17):
so you could become a more secure person by making
better choices.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yes, I was going to say, it seems like a
square is a rhomis romis, isn't it always is in
a square? Like an anxious person could like like cut
the sauce a little, like take some of the salt
out of the sauce that they can change a little bit.
It doesn't feel like an avoidant ken. It feels like
it's deep, deeply ingrained. Of course there are exceptions, but
(06:44):
it's a fucking project. Anxious could be I guess a
project too, But like you said, if you're meeting them
even halfway, they could calm down a little.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, they're both people have to be intentional about changing
both themselves and their choice and heartners. So I've got
a couple good friends who are avoidant, and they're good,
they're good guys, they're working on it. I still think
they'd be really high risk bet, and that's why they're
(07:13):
multi divorced or single in their fifties. It's it's not
a complete accident. Even if I could say they're really
good guys, they might not be good guys to date.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Right, So and the people, you know, I said the
other day, inconsistent means inconsiderate period. It doesn't matter what
the intention is, what they did as a baby, I
had a fucked up childhood to like, we don't I'm
not really interested in what happened to you as a baby,
(07:42):
and that's why you're inconsistent, and now you're inconsiderate. I
don't really give a fuck because I have to operate
it now in twenty twenty five, not on what abusive
childhood I endure. So it's kind of like a touching story.
But we don't what women women date down so badly
that it's it's just one of the things I really
want to convey. And and we give cookies for such
(08:05):
minimal effort, Like it turns out that the right person
could probably do the right person's minimum is the wrong
person's maximum. Like it feels like we just, oh, he's
gave me a flower, Like everyone's so excited, Oh my god,
he texted about like it feels like it's just set
(08:27):
up for women to be jacked up about men doing
the bare minimum, Like it's just across the board. You
see all over the place women like jumping up and
down and being so excited for like the bare minimum,
and we have to switch that.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I agree, you know, you know my central metaphor. I
saw your new website. It's gorgeous. I mean, you're you're
running with it, and I think it's great that you're
popularizing the idea. And basically because of how people were raised.
And again I'm not a psychologist, don't pretend to be
a psychologist. If you have a controlling mother or who's
(09:03):
highly critical, and you have a father who doesn't show
you love or maybe they got divorced when you were
really young, you spend your life in need of love, attention, affection,
You crave it, you can't get it from your childhood,
and then you play that out in every relationship where
you default, make yourself the intern, and if someone throws
you a buck for working for them, you're like, oh
(09:25):
my god, this is the best dollar I've ever had.
And that's what it's like to be an anxious attachment
style woman. That's why they called bread crumbing. A guy
could text once a week, Oh my god, he was
thinking of me. He hasn't seen me in three weeks,
but he was thinking of me today. So any little
thing could be enough to keep her going when she
has accepted. Well, that's what love is. They're crumbs. It's
(09:46):
not the consistent love that, for example, you show your child.
So I always encourage women who are of a certain
age who have children. Think of how you love your child.
You deserve to be loved that way by a man.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Well, I think I'm a combination because if someone doesn't
treat me properly, I won't stand for it, and I'll
ignore and I'll avoid while feeling anxiously attached. But it's
almost like a gamification of it. It's like, not what's
coming naturally inside my body is anxious attachment, what the
actions are is avoidant attachment. Does that make any sense?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Makes perfect sense? And it makes sense. And in our
limited offscreen interaction, it seems to me that you are
an expert in the gamification of dating and understanding the
power struggles and the leap is letting go of the power.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Well, the leap is not playing a game, because if
you play a game, you get a game player, correct,
and it's not based in reality, and so that that's
been something to do. Also, I do think there is
a level of game. You can't be too desperate. I
do think in the world there is a level of game.
There's a tight, slight hint of the rules or whatever
that book was about. But I don't think that's the
main thing that can be, you know, the shiny exterior
(11:18):
to get somebody in the restaurant, but once they're in,
that has to go away.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Can I share an idea that's relevant to this? So
it's a termin that I used, maybe someone else made
it up too years ago. I call it mirroring, and
mirroring is basically responding instead of initiating. So you can
be in your ceo feminine power and you're still waiting
for the guy to take the lead. He texts you,
(11:43):
You text them back warmly, enthusiastically, quickly, no game playing.
He calls you. You called him back, Hey, I want
to see you this weekend if you're free. You say
I want to see you too. You're not saying, oh,
I'm busy. It's not any power struggle. It is just warm, receptive, enthusiastic,
and he is until it it's not yeah, till it's
not what I'm saying. You're never initiating and chasing, You're
(12:05):
just responding quickly, warmly and fansastic. And so that works really,
really well almost across the board with any guy with
any balls who shows any interest.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Until a point you have to sometimes initiate and do
that you have just sometimes initiated.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yes and no. My wife never initiated. I mean again,
it's not like I'm super alpha male. But if I
wanted to see her, I would see her. If I
wanted to call her, I would call her. She didn't
have to coerce me to. The only thing she ever
did was when we were about one month into dating
and I was an entrepreneur and she had a conventional job.
She would call me at five o'clock and be like,
want to talk And I would still be working because
(12:40):
it's only five o'clock. And she's like, I get the
sense that you don't want to be bothered at work
at five o'clock. I said, yeah, I work later hours
than you do. She goes, here's all I need from you.
I'm your girlfriend. I want to feel connected to you
every day, every night before you go to sleep, just
give me a call a sakeod night. I don't care
if it's eleven thirty pm. I just want to hear
your voice. And I pulled that stupid guy stuff like
I don't know, I don't always have something to say
(13:02):
every day. She was, this is what I need from you.
Can you do that? Yeah? It was pretty reasonable. And
then for the rest of the time we were dating,
she never had to call me. It's not that she couldn't.
It's not like I'd run away if she did. By
my point is she didn't have to because why I
was the guy who really wanted a job with her.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
So let's talk about I've talked about breakups a little
a lot of girls when I do my dating university
on social media really respond with I really needed to
hear this today when you're discussing with them not reaching out,
staying strong, almost like they're on a juice cleanse and
(13:41):
you got a or a like not drinking alcohol or
quitting smoking, and you're really trying to help someone with
that addiction because it actually can be and like an addiction,
it might not be based in actual reality. You could
be chasing the dragon. It could always make you feel bad.
You go back to do the drug and it makes
you feel worse than the first time you ever did it,
(14:02):
and you can't get there, but there's something in it happening.
And so there's a discussion about muting and blocking. So
one thing is for someone to say to someone else,
please don't contact me. I think that's easier said than done.
That's something that people say in courses, but when someone's
(14:24):
going to really do it, it's going to be harder
because saying that means you'll never know if the person
really is not gonning. You'll never know if the person
really wanted to reach out. So on social media, if
someone says something nasty to me or anything I just
don't like, I'll just block them. I don't mute them,
I'll block them. I don't care. You need to know
(14:45):
that I blocked you, And maybe it seems hostile. I
don't care. It's not for them, it's for me, like
it's for me. And so if there was a situation
where I was breaking up with someone and it didn't
make me feel good, it felt like either an addiction
or or just something that was like a gnat that
you just can't you know what I mean. You know,
maybe you're bored. Maybe you're bored, you have nothing else going.
(15:07):
I am a firm believer of block And it doesn't
matter what the other person thinks, because you're not you're
feeling that the person doesn't make you feel good or
feel happy, so you don't give a shit about the
other person. In my opinion, like you're doing your self preserving.
So if it means because I always say, get off
my timeline, like if someone makes you feel bad in
any way or you know it's not right, get the
(15:27):
fuck off my timeline. If you don't have the courage
to say that to someone for whatever reason, you just
block them everywhere. Is that? What do you think about that?
Is that like immature or wrong? Because I'm a big fan.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
No, it's not immature, wrong and use the right words.
It is about self preservation. So it doesn't mean after
breakup you can still like someone, you can still love someone,
you could recognize that their presence in your life is
not allowing you to heal properly. It's like picking out
a scab and wondering why it's not healing. Whether if
you're texting and he says baby, I miss you, and
(15:58):
you say, hey, baby, I miss you and maybe we
should get together one last time. All that stuff doesn't
allow you to heal The best breakup story I ever had,
and this is again it's gonna be an ironic story.
I broke up with a lovely person after eight months.
I didn't think I was going to marry her. But
she's a great person and I cared about her, like
I really. I have nothing bad to say about her
(16:19):
to this day. She blocked me on text, blocked me.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
On social rude, ended it, and then she blocked you.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yes, this is this is this is textbook. This is
what I would tell women to do. But it's what
happened to me.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
You with her.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I ended it with her.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
We're still talking a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I tried to let her down gently and say, hey,
we could stay friends. I really want to know that
you're doing well. Yeah, cuts me off. The next time
I see her, no, no shit is on Facebook. It's
a picture of her and her husband.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
But you know that she cut you off because you
tried to reach out to be like, hey, what's up
or hi? Checking in?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
This is very much you use the word addiction. But
it's not it's not the it's not the wrong one.
It's actually the right word. Love lights up the same
pleasure centers of in your brain is meth and coke.
That's why it feels like a roller coaster. That's why
every song is about love being a drug. It absolutely
does give you dopamine, serotonin, nouropinephrin, pseudophedrin. These are the
(17:15):
things that make you high highs, low lows. And you
got to balance out, especially after that breakup, because there's
no putting Humpty dumpty back together again. So the self,
the best thing for self preservation is to do all
the things you said. If you're an alcoholic, don't keep
on buying alcohol and try to resist it in your house.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Wow Okay, so yeah we agree. Like it's cutthroat, it's
tough shit program.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
If you could do it from compassion, like it could
be like, you know, Brad, I love you, I miss you,
I think about you all the time. That is exactly
why I can't talk to you.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I don't even think that's necessary, but I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
But Bethany, we're talking about taking the high road. Maybe
he was a dick, but I'm saying you can cut
someone off with compassion.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I don't think that that's the high. I don't. I
don't agree. I don't think you need to. You can
say that at some point, but it's still giving away
some of your power. And I feel like, as a woman,
you want to feel good at the end and not
I love you, but so that's why I can't speak
to you. I think that's sappy, and I don't disagree,
(18:18):
I really do. I think you can piece out if
if someone was amazing to you and you broke up
with them, which has like if you broke up with them,
you hurt them, and you.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Need to there's less of it needs to block them
if you broke up with them. It's when you can't
deal with the breakup.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
You could have broken up with them, but you still
want the hit of the drug. You could know that
the drug isn't good for you. It's not something that
you can sustain on. But you But you know what
I'm saying. I'm saying, whatever it is, if the person
isn't making you feel good, I don't think you need
to explain that. They already know that. That's obvious. The
reasons why it's not a mystery. This whole thing why
(18:54):
you broke up is why you broke up.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I get that. At the same time, if we're the seat,
I think it's better to bring someone into the office
and let them go and give them severance.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
And you know, it depends on the situation. Then yes,
sometimes the building no, if the person, yeah, sometimes the
person needs to be escorted out of.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
The building, right, And so these are different use cases. I'm, i'm.
Most of my breakups were not throwing plates. They were
two people who realized they couldn't.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
No, it doesn't have to be throwing plates, though, But
like I could think of two breakups that were significant,
and one was super classy and while you're still angry
and you still want to look good and make it
feel bad, it does not require any version of blocking.
And one was just toxic, even though it wasn't intentional,
but it was one of those like, inconsistent means inconsiderate,
and to me, that means peace the fuck out, and
(19:45):
I don't have to explain anything.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Listen, you end up in the exact same place where
we can agree. Holding on to X's as friends when
you don't really just feel like just friends with them
is kind of a lie to yourself and illusion like
somehow we're gonna we're gonna make this work somehow. Again,
we were texting privately, and sometimes it's just hard. It's
(20:07):
hard to let go of something that was good but
can't be great.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
So we're gonna land on that. We're gonna land on.
All roads lead to Rome, and you have to decide
what works for you, what recipe works for you. You
have to be really honest with yourself, but you're gonna
get to the same place, which is no contact because
it's it's it's toxic. Okay, I like that, all right,
so we can we can agree on that.
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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