March 26, 2025 • 43 mins
We look back at great advice from Life Coach Breck Costin. Noise in your life keeps you trapped. Be free! And learn how to live honestly...Hint: It means learning to say "no" and quiet a particular kind of noise. PLUS: "Charming" is a red flag.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hey, Brack. Okay, this is Brack Costin. I've known him.
Do you know how long we've known each other, Breck.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
It's probably been close to twenty years at this point, no.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
More, because I was like thirty thirty one, maybe even
younger anyway, so easily, No, I think it's twenty five.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, yeah, I've never I've never been with time.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
And yeah, I think I was like in my early thirties.
All right, So this is Breck Costin. I've known him
for years because a group of friends of mine had
found this Freedom course in LA and it was transformative
for them, and I liked the name Freedom, and I
was like at a crossroads with a relationship. Yeah, Breck,
I think it was earlier. It was like in my twenties. Yeah,
(00:55):
and I was. So that was like a long time ago,
maybe almost thirty years ago, and you could probably go
back and look at the dates. I probably still my
Freedom notebook upstairs. And I went to this like three
day immersive experience at Breck and uh learned a language
a lot of people use now that I actually know
is because of me, which we'll get into. And Breck's
sort of like oblivious to all that, like commercial stuff
in ways, which I like because like he never knows
(01:17):
how many times I use his words, but I do
always give him credit, but like other people do also.
So Breck is a life coach slash non traditional therapist
but not like a doctor. And we've known each other
for years and we talk fairly regularly, and he's a
great guy and he's had a big life, and I
(01:39):
wanted to have him on here. I think you came
on years ago when I started.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
No I never came on as a podcast. We did
you and you had your talk show?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
You didn't, I think we did, but maybe yeah we
did in the very beginning, one hundred.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Percent telling you you know, it's way too long now
I can't remember apparently, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Mean one hundred percent. In the very very beginning we talked.
So you're in LA and we spoke the other day,
and I thought that hopefully you'd want to come on more,
but I'll sort of drive and I wanted to just
like bring up different concepts that we've discussed over the
years that jump off the page to me, and also
that you probably don't even know that I've discussed the
(02:18):
people and have jumped off the page with them. So
like you talk about a million things, but like probably
the things you wouldn't even think would be the biggest thing.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, that's true. I mean, you know, people will take
away what they think is really relevant and resonates. And
I think we're, you know, as a as a coach
or just as as a person who's contributing, You're you're
always looking for different portals and different metaphors and different language, music,
anything you can that you think will get something from
your mouth to someone's ear that will be useful, right,
like digestible and people respond to you know, two different
(02:48):
different image imagery, different music, different rhythms, different metaphors. So
it's kind of figuring out what's what will translate for
each person.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
So I guess we'll go with the biggest ticket item.
I was going to do Charming, which we'll do after
because they really surprises people on the charming. I had
a podcast called Charming is a Red Flag and it
was it was very It had a lot of impact,
which was shocking because it really people. It spoke to
people because charming is used as something positive. But let
me just park that for one second. Okay, let's talk
about noise. Okay, many people use the term noise as
(03:20):
a result of me commercializing the term noise as a
result of learning it from you at the Freedom course,
and I took it to another level. You talked about
food noise and money noise, and different people have different
noise or like talking about someone's particularly noisy in that area.
And I wrote a book called Naturally Thin about food noise.
(03:43):
But I've seen people, I've seen on social media other
people talk about it. They don't even realize that it
came from me and that it came from you. So
just talk. Let's talk about noise for a little bit, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
So and I like that, you know, I love that.
As you said, you know, I kind of think of
myself as me the scenes, and not to diminish any
other coaches or any other people who are in the
working in you know, transformational world or in a self
help world, spiritual world. But I just think the contract
really is is that you're you're a source, right, you know,
(04:15):
you're not the you know, you're not not that you
can't be the mouthpiece for what you're delivering, but you're
actually the source, and you want other people to be
able to deliver that from their own particular expression, right,
and they make it their own, they take it to
a whole other level. So that's always exciting for me
when you know, like as you take noise and kind
of disseminate it so it becomes part of the vernacular,
(04:36):
part of the culture. Right. I like that. I like
watching that those kinds of things happen.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
They say the best relationships are the rock and the stars.
So you have many stars that you talk to, but
like you're they're the star. You're the rock, Like you're
behind the.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Scenes and understanding. Like any great team, you understand your position,
you know, and you play your position. And I think
a lot of times where it's conflicted, and I'll get
into noise even from this context, think for a lot
of people that they're they're they're so wanting to play
a position that they're just not designed for and it's
and it's just and then and I consider that to
(05:09):
be one of the you know, when you're trying to
compete where you're not competitive, it is it is a
source of suffering. Wow, it is. And people will spend
years and years and years trying to squeeze them into
something that they just weren't designed to do. And so,
and that goes right into noise as well. So noise
is this very basically, it's your really your internal commentary
(05:29):
that's good or bad. Now, this is what people think,
they oh, good noise is good. I'm saying no, no,
good noise. You're trying to keep around. Bad noise you're
trying to get rid of. So it has you either way.
It holds you hostage either way.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So you're saying, like, the absence of noise is real,
true piece. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, that's where freedom and peace is right. And if
you look at when you're the most brilliant, you're when
you look at where your essence is being fully expressed,
and it's the essential you, it's when there's no noise.
So that's a singer singing in front of the sick
two thousand people, and they're not trying to remember their lyrics.
They're not remembering they're connected to the audience. They're expressing themselves.
They're they don't have like oh man, I'm crushing it
(06:09):
or I'm you know, or this when badly.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Meaning like even if it's family noise and you're managing it,
you're still having to deal with that. You're thinking about
it positive, like I've got it under control. That's noisy too,
and bad noises.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, so management, the management of something is even more.
I kind of think of this as like a feral tiger, Like,
you know, your noise can be running rampant and just
eating anything that's on the African plane, right, feral, and
then when it comes up a solution to a problem, Okay,
I'll manage this. I'll just quester this animal, this ferocious animal,
and that just as bad. Right. It's literally like this
(06:45):
is a Siegfreedo and roy of noise is they know
how to work with white tigers, you know. They they
made millions of dollars working with with this, you know,
So it's a it's understanding. It's understanding how to work
with you know, your own, you know animal. I'll talk
about survival noise in that regard as well, but it
really is understanding that when you are truly there is
(07:05):
when there's no noise. So that's that's when you like,
in this conversation that we're having, if you and I
were going, God, I hope this is going well. I
wonder if this is going all right or our internal
dialogue was like, I'm not sure what to say.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
It's noisy, Yeah, it'd be like a noise. Well, that's
funny because in the book Naturally Thin, the way that
I took it to the next level, which I forgot
until this exact moment, is I said that with people
with food, they wanted to turn their noise into a voice,
like you're having just a conversation. I'm about to have
a meal, and this what I'm gonna have versus I
was bad, I was good. I ate so much so
(07:37):
I have to beat myself up and eat more or
I have to eat nothing like that's managing. That's noisy,
but just being like okay, chocolate I wanted, and I'm
you know, next, I'm doing this like have it be
like a voice, which to me seemed calmer.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well it's not only calmer, but you know that it's
it's I see this in phases bethany where you kind
of like are first of all recognizing it's coming out
of the ethers. You're recognizing if as an internal dialogue
rather that's just your personality or that's just the way
it is. So you're seeing some distinction between oh, this
isn't me, this is the noise in my head. But
(08:12):
most people associate the noise in their head with them.
And when you are your essential you, there's no noise,
and it's a strange phenomenon, like, oh, when I'm truly
being myself, it's when there's no noise that's happening.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
That's the most meditative state, is being.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Just just there, right, yeah, So, and I think in
a world attempting that right to get to that. So,
I call that the thing you just mentioned, the cherry
pie I made it up as a cherry pye conflict.
And that is like, okay, you got to you got
to lunch, you got to dinner. And the waiter says, okay,
would you like dessert? And it says with a cherry pie.
(08:47):
Person goes no, you know, no, I'm not gonna have
any cherry pie, and so and and he goes ask again,
do you want any cherry pie? And Vera says no,
I don't want a cherry pie. And so throughout the
day you're like, hey, you know I didn't eat that
cherry pie. I didn't eat the cherry pie at all.
You know, you didn't have the cherry pie. But you're
still being dominated by cherry pie, when whether you ate
it or not, you.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Should have just had, yeah, take a bite, a couple
of bites of it. Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Whether you ate it or not.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
That's noisy.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, and that's what noise looks like.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Well, also, I want to tell everyone that, and we
can move to something else because I think they maybe
get it. But like that when Breck introduced it to me,
because we're talking about thirty years ago, but I have
a crazy memory for this stuff. You've taught so many
different things and talked about so many different things. But
I want to like take people back to what I
learned that He talked about how each person has different
(09:35):
Someone could have religion, noise, food, noise, money, noise, age, noise, vanity, noise,
like it could be anything. It could be all the
seven Deadly sins. It's just you could be noisy about something.
It could it could be anything, right, Like, it could
be the Emperor has no clothes or I'm not I'm
even someone has billion dollars. They could still think they're
going to lose it all.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Oh no, no, that happens. I mean, have a lot
of clients just like you know, who have you know,
storty amount of money, and there they can be the
most terrified.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Okay, So that that's overall. Noise can be different for
every single person.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
But the goal it doesn't mean that noise doesn't produce.
It doesn't mean that it can't produce, meaning like you
can make a ton of money in a certain area. Right.
But the thing is is that it mostly where you
have no noise is where you're the most created, most
most evolved, most accomplished, most you know, most evolutionary. Right.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Well, that's interesting, Okay, So this is why that's interesting
to me because usually the thing that the person's most
obsessed with, you've called it, their plates of wounding, the
thing that they're thinking about the most, is the thing
that isn't coming naturally to them. And I also think
that like between sleep and wake is when all my
best ideas come, and when I'm the most relaxed, is
(10:46):
when my amazing like ideas they just come to solve
a problem that I've had forever. And that's quiet, it's
literally quiet.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Well, yeah, you can't you can't solve you know, certainly,
you know you can can't be creative or innovative or
generative when fear or shame is dominating. Right, It's it's
a it's a threat, right, So why I say it
can it can produce? It means that someone can can
start like they're there, can start start their mote or
(11:17):
their engine. In terms of I don't want to be
like that. I'm going to change my circumstances. I'm going
to drive something, right, So, like the difference between ambition
and invention is you can start something from a place
of noise, right, you can. It can kick off from
place like I don't want to be like my dad.
I don't want to be like my mom, and I
don't want to live like this. I'm wanting to do
something from a reactive place. But in order for it
(11:39):
to fulfill and move, it's got to move into an
evolutionary creative place where it's not driven drop driven from
that that source. So we're all we're always looking at
at you know, what is it that? What is it
that has us? And what is it that we have
right and what is holding us hostage? And what do
I actually have? So today, you know, we're just riddled
(12:00):
with anxiety, right, And anxiety is I mean just kind
of globally anxiety is trying to get control of something
of no control over right, and so people come up
with tons of solutions to that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Like you're you're saying, because you talk about this with
charm too, anxiety has us and you say that charm
has people too, Like, so go into like how these
things are having us, Like, we're going to that because
I think that's interesting. Most people don't say that.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Okay, So when I say someone can be productive, I'm
saying that they don't know that. People don't distinguish out enough.
You know, what is it, you know where they have
noise and no noise, so it just looks like, oh,
I if that I'm being manic here, And I'm going, well, no,
you're actually not being manic there. You know here you're
pretty freed up. Here you're manic and you're collapsing both
(12:52):
of those those things. So someone could be have their
craft just to kind of finish that up. Their craft
could be Jordan like, they'd be able to play the
guitar brilliantly. They can do that, but their career is noisy,
so they never fulfill in their career. But they could
be the best, the best guitarist in the world, and
people understand, Well, if I'm really great at this out come,
this isn't fulfilling. And someone can be mediocre in their
(13:16):
craft but really freed up in their career, right, meaning
they have all this room to make mistakes, to fail,
to lose, to move right. And so you know, watching,
you know, watching where things produce and how they produce,
you know, is my entire kind of work, right, Like,
what is what is it that has someone be effective,
you know in a particular way. So the question that
(13:38):
you're asking is, I consider identities. I look at identities,
and the identity is a way you want to be
seen or a way you do not want to be seen. Right,
So I want to I might want to be seen
as smart. I can't be seen as stupid. I want
to be seen as a tractor. I can't be seen
as ugly. I obt to see this as powerful. They
can't be seen as weak.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I feel like you used to call that image. Also
is that are you saying that's.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
The same, Well I did, it was? It was an
image has a much broader context, okay, right, But the
identity is very specific. You know, we walk around, you know,
wanting me seen in a particular way. And if we're
not seen in a particular way, we get reactive, threatened, disconsolate,
something like that. So I always consider that identities have you,
(14:22):
qualities and characteristics you have. So this is there to
your point about charming. So you could have an identity
of loyal like you need to be seen as a
loyal person. That's an identity, right, So you're loyal to
a fault, s you'll stay in situations long after you should.
You don't get out fast enough. You ally yourself to
(14:42):
things you shouldn't because you've got a dysfunction, so you're
not seeing things correctly. So loyal to a fault is problematic.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yep, agreed. And that's almost like the obligation to a fault.
When people constantly have to go, they always have to
show up. It feels disingenuous, like they're doing it to
check the box.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So with regards to loyalty as a characteristic equality, that's
different than an identity. I mean you have loyalty, Loyalty
doesn't have you. So you can be loyal to the
appropriate situations, you can exit situations appropriately, and you can
be disloyal if you have loyal I mean, I'm not
going to be loyal to someone who's saying, you know,
(15:20):
an asshole or someone who's doing this, right, But you
can't be disloyal if loyalty to a fault has you.
So that is true for everything. So it could be
so everything to be positive or negative depending on the context.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Okay, so talk about obligation, because everybody that's listening is
doing a bunch of things they don't actually want to
be doing. And I do many things for other people,
but I don't do anything anywhere that I don't want
to do. And I think that's jarring, and I.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
That's revolution that's this almost is like you now we're
talking kind of like graduate school in terms of self help,
just because it really is such a revolutionary concept because
it looks completely selfish. Yes, because someone says, but what
looks what looks one way to the culture might be
entirely different to what's actually true.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
So if someone is saying, oh, you you know, you
never do anything, you know, obligatorily, and I go and
I say, yeah, I don't, and they go, well, that's
just completely selfish. I go, well, actually know it's selfless
because who wants someone around who's doing something as they're
a pain in the ass. They're doing it for you.
(16:46):
They're sanctimonious about it, they're self righteous about it, and
that's not yielding anything. It's no benefit to any right.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I don't like when people count who gave a gift
to give a gift back. I don't want any gifts.
I have one, no gifts. Gifts giving is literally my
love language. I don't want any because I'm not giving
a gift because I want something back or because I
got something. They have nothing to do with each other,
and it irritates me when I hear someone, well, can
you believe they came to the wedding and they only
did whatever? Who gives a shit that? So I hate
(17:15):
that shit. I hate counting. That's the opposite of being
a good person.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
An obligation can can just like you said that, it
can trans can translate to many many situations. It can
go to it can go to gift giving. It can
go to emotional context like I love you. I didn't
hear it back, right, You're obligated to say it back,
so it can be I agree with that too. That's
(17:40):
so ridiculous. It can be on emotional context, it can
be in a physical context, obligation can translate to many
many different situations. So obligation, you know, to live a
life obligation free, right, meaning you know, I'm only going
to do things that I want to do, and I'm
only going to do things that I say I'm gonna
do or I'm not going to do them, right. And
(18:02):
you know, like when someone goes, well, what if your
wife asks you to do something to me, I go,
that's usually my pleasure. You know, I want to do
something for it. It's not an obligation right, right.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
But you may not totally want to do that thing,
but you want to do like.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
But you want to do that for them because you
know what it'll.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Like Yes, I'm saying yes exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
So that's for people get stuck. And you know, in
my marriage, I mean I think it's been really generous
in that way. Like if I say I don't want
to do exit like something simple like Jene goes, oh,
the dishes are the in the sink. Yeah, I said
I didn't want to do them. She goes, Okay, so
it's it's gonna be as simple as that, and then
they get done you know down the road right where
(18:39):
it's kind of something you want to do, but it's
like literally simple.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Well no if she lets that go a couple of times,
and it's like says to you like it would be
nice if you did them, but doesn't give you damage
next time you might want to do them. It's kind
of like this weekend, I was with someone that I
care about and I was exhausted, and I just I
am always activated, but I'm when I do a lot
of things that involve other people, I really need to restore.
And it could be like organizing sweaters, or like looking
(19:05):
at lip gloss or just staring at the TV. I
just need to be alone ish, or like wandering in
a house with someone else there, but not like a
you know, in an obligation mode. Yes, so this person
is an extrovert and I'm more of an introvert. And
they said, my cousin's in town and I was in
the Hampton's and do you want to go for lunch
with him? Now? I really didn't want to go, but
I really care about this person who's doing a lot
(19:27):
of things for me and and really caring. And I said,
I first just want to know if you care if
I go or not, Like I just want to know
where you stand with it.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, that was the question I go to say, is
this important to you?
Speaker 1 (19:38):
That I go like do you care? Like how much?
On a one to ten, because often you're not communicating
and you just say yes and then you resent it
or you say no and they resent that you said no,
even though they didn't really care. But it was the
way that it was discussed. I said, listen, you, if
it's really important to you, then we should discuss that.
I wasn't even ready to go yet. I just was
ready to say, if it's really important, you should discuss that.
I on my own vacuum don't want to go, but like,
(20:02):
if it's really important to you, because as a family member,
that's a discussion. And then he was like it's really
not and I was like, okay, great, I really don't
want to go. And then later he was gone for
like three hours and he was worried that it was
too long, and that became a I'm like, no, like
not to make you feel bad. You could go for
five hours like I you know, I want eventually I
want you to come back and not be But it's
(20:22):
like that kind of stuff. It like frees you up
because you could really go on the wrong road. You
could go and resent it.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
First of all, you're always looking to maintain like you're
now talking relationship stuff, so you're talking, so you always
are looking to maintain the affinity of the connection, the
love connection and the relationship. That's kind of like the intention, right,
and in between fights and disagreements and you don't feel
appreciated or whatever people's issues are, you know, that can
(20:49):
be that can that can get threatened that affinity, right,
So those kinds of conversations of like, well is this
important to you? No, it's not, okay, then I'm not
going to go, and it maintains the affinity in the
relationship rather than I'm just not going right.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
No, you're right, or like going and resenting. I do
ask a lot if something's important, because someone one said
to me years ago, Dennis, who you knew, He said,
if it's important to you, it's important to me. He
didn't act that way, but I liked the sentence.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I do too, and I like and I like that too.
So it's obligation. So you live a life obligation free, right,
So you take away the victim. That's really what you're doing.
Because a victim is somewhere something or someone.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Smarter like the marthing, or someone's.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Doing something to you. You take away the victim in
the conversation, right, and then we so get into those
habits of acting like victims and situations and and living
life implication free. So obligation and implication free are like
implication free means you know what it means about you.
If I do this, I'm a good person. If I
don't do this, I'm a bad person. Right, And people
live mostly obligatorily.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
No, they want and they check the butt, they want
the scorecard. It's counting, which is the opposite of a
good relationship, is counting anything.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, you're looking to live a life you know, obligation free,
implication free, and you're more generous, you're more creative, you're
more connected, you're more communication and you have less noise
in your head.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Bravo. So we've accomplished. Okay, let's get into charm. So
tell me about charming. I'm eating a little bite of
my snack because I have very breakfast. Let's talk about charming.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So you know, when someone says and usually charm is
associated with you know, men or masculine. Let's call it
that way, you know, can take it.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Wow? Yeah, right, so explain that.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, So you know, we don't usually say the woman's charming.
We will use a different term for that. Oh god,
she's really gracious, she's really sweet, you know, sweet like
all kinds of different things. But that's associated culturally with
a man, right, and it's usually associated in a really
favorable way. Right now. The thing about charm is that
(22:51):
it's and people people don't like this, But I considered
myself quite charming, you know, early on, So I figured
I can get away with talking about this, right even
I've got you know, it's like someone like who's who's
If you've got the wound, you can really talk about
the wound, right.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So you probably were really charming. That's why you know
about it so well? Yeah, because you would just guys,
Breck was like a hotshot data models, party like a
rock star, came from money, trust fun like big swinging dick.
The whole thing, had a life. Life humbled you. You
probably were a charming motherfucker with that money and the
(23:27):
models and the looks and all that shit in New
York City partying in La got it? Okay?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, So I mean so I feel like I have
a strong sense of this right now. You can also
have a strong sense of how, you know how the
narcissistic wound that's associated with charming right which is very
you know, it's a it's a painful thing for people
to say, but that's what it is. Why is it?
Because it if you're a man who's incredibly charming, you
(23:53):
are you create an addiction of meeting that kind of
attention and that kind of feedback. Do you know you
go to a party, you go to this and something
has to be said about you.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Okay, So I want to tell everybody because this was
I talked about this. It's the guy who sometimes not you,
but sometimes the charming is the hey Dan, how's your
golf game? And like real Gregario is then at home
like treating his wife like shit, or I've had that scenario.
I've also had this scenario where the guy's like the bro,
real bro, real friend, you know, just hugging everybody and
(24:24):
good looking and everybody likes him and girls like it,
and he's a life of the party and like the
peacock like and you're right, because it is an addiction,
they just go to it right away. It works so well,
and go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
So it becomes really your go to in as a man,
and and that's and you and it gets narrowed down
so that becomes mostly your entire or you're you're organized
around what you're driven by, you know, getting feedback for
how charming you are, needing to seduce all the time,
whether it's men or women. You're just you're like an
animal and is constantly generating that.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
You're singing the karaoke song, You're doing the shots, You're
a charming, the mom you got, everybody loves you.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Whatever's required. If what's required is be completely quiet, what's
required to be totally entertaining, what's required to be this
You're you're you're managing whatever you need to do to
get that feedback. Wow, so and and it and it
becomes an addiction like anything else. That's why age can
be really challenging for people as they you know, as
(25:24):
they fall and they don't have the same skills, they
don't do the same resources that they had. So what
I all say to women, and women will say this
right as well, is if you see someone who's particularly charming,
run for the hills.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I literally called the podcast charming is a red flag.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, so run for the hills because in two years
you're gonna hate this guy. You're gonna hate, You're gonna go,
I'm gonna kill this guy.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
The very thing that you found so fascinating that the stick,
this bit is gonna make you sick, it.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Is, and in two years you're gonna be out of
your mind. Right. So I say I say this to
women when women go, you know, I'm in marrying my
yoga instructor. I go. Just because he can put his
you know, legs around his head doesn't mean that he's
got emotional flexibility. Don't confuse those two, right. I'm not
saying he doesn't. I'm saying that those are different phenomenas.
There's a different photomen be meean spiritual evolution, creative evolution,
(26:19):
emotional evolution, right, and these things so a lot of times,
and that can be a highly seductive thing for you know,
and and dating charm. So I'm saying most men, other
men who so who have integrity, you know, a sense
of themselves and a sense of you know, kind of
a moral compass in terms of who they are and
(26:40):
what they are, and they don't need all that feedback,
they have a stronger sense to themselves. They can have charm,
So meaning you can have charmed from a context of integrity, right,
But if charm is your whole story, that's where it's problematic.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
It's owning you, it's wearing you.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, it's it's what it has your own habit. So
it doesn't mean you can't have charm. It just can't.
It's got to be like anything. You've got to be
able to pick it up and put it down and
use it, and it's got to be more more mobile
in play in all that way. And most men who
have integrity and have a great deal of respect dismiss charm.
They'll see other men and they'll they'll dismiss it because
(27:17):
they can smell like it's it's self centered, it's narcissistic,
it's it's superficial, it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Have enough weight love it wow.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
And so you've got to be interested. And this is
always the game that you know, for me, loss is
always the game that you're willing to lose what you
consider maybe your most important asset for the possibility of
your own evolution.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Well, it's funny you say that, because the way I
think of it is things that you're good for and
things that are good for you. So I used to
remember friends of our Shannon, et cetera. I used to
produce events, large scale events, multimillion dollar events, the Grammy's,
the Emmys, on the Rock, Alcatraz. No one was ever
better at it than I was. No one you could
ask the woman who ran all the events at Disney.
(27:59):
My body line was perfect, my P and L sheet.
I missed out a detail. I didn't I picked up
every floral, like every chair.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Like I mean, yeah, that mad that make perfect sense
because I'm.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Sick like so. But I was great for it. It
wasn't great for me. So I had to be like
you know, And that's what goes on in my work
every day. Things that I'm good at, and my whole
entire team relies on me for all the details in
the detail of every video and every caption and all
the weeds because I'm amazing at them, but they're not
good for me. And it's like a discipline for the
people around me. Like you guys cannot come to Mommy
(28:32):
for every single question otherwise I cannot do what I
need to do in my business. It's not good for me.
So that's sort of my like cross to bear is
what I'm good for, but what's not good for me?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, and those are those are and they can be
very different, right they can. They can be very very different. So,
and that's also understanding what's bankrupt, you know as it
because because you can be highly productive and have no
sense of that illution. Yes, do you know what I mean?
Like you know? I mean you can. You can make
a billion dollars, you can do all kinds of things,
and yet your sense of self, your development, you know,
(29:08):
you're still maintaining the same You're still maintaining the same
way of being because.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
You do the same exercise at the gym every time.
My inclination is to solve the problem, is to tell
you I'm dealing with the situation with this guy or
with Brin's school, or with work, and go attack and
produce the problem and use it like a relief effort
and solve it. But I'm not growing, I'm a feeling.
I'm not learning. I just know how to like wrap
it up. And so Millin to my therapist, who you've met,
will be like, now she's not like a how do
(29:34):
you feel? But she doesn't really care about me, giving
her like the news, sports and weather. She wants to
like get to like what's going on about it?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, like what what is the what is the thing
that you're that you have kind of have to lose
in order to gain Now, people think that they're going
to lose their their essential asset, and I'm going no,
that's an illusion that they The essential asset just moves
into the foundation of your life. It's no longer in
the foreground, right, but you have to have that noise
(30:01):
back to noise. That noise in your head is like
if you if you introduce a new possibility something and
I don't care where it's an emotional possibility, like you know,
I want to be I want to I want to
be on time I don't know, or I want to
I want to complete things. I want to what I say,
I'm going to start a complete whatever you introduce or
I want to be more compassionate. Whatever you might introduce,
(30:22):
you also introduce because you wouldn't be introducing that if
it was something that you didn't have. You're introducing it
because it's something you don't have that you're wanting, right,
And so if you're introducing that you're also introducing the loss,
the loss of well, wait, may I won't I won't
be able to produce over here, or I won't be
effective over here, or this might you know, fall apart.
(30:43):
So that's the fear. That's why when someone says, well,
most people don't change, they're not wrong, just because what
it requires to change is huge.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
You mean, like, I'm stopping drinking, so I'm not gonna
be the life of the party anymore. I'm overweight, I'm
losing weight. I'm not going to be joevial exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, there's that Friends, that episode about fun, and I
think it's fun Bobby Worth, right, Oh god, Bobby's coming over,
you know, because he is an alcoholic and he was
hysterical and now and he's no longer drinking and he's
not fun anymore, right, which is not accurate. It's not
you know, lots of people have been sober for years
who are incredibly entertaining and great and creative at all
and more productive than ever. So it's not a function
(31:20):
of that, but it is a function of not being
afraid to lose. And I think and I look at
that as one of the major themes of evolution, right,
that you're willing in some area to you know, to
lose in a powerful, profound way.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Okay, so now I have two little things. So the
two things I want to talk about are something you
said recently about people don't come batteries are not included
the way that we start like catastrophizing and thinking about something.
But they're not this, but they're this, or they're different
than the last person. And I was with and like,
and you've said, like battery, people don't come with batteries.
That's one concept, and then the other one is like
(32:07):
I don't think this is just like a bit. But
when I was talking to a writer who works for
Fortune magazine last night, this woman Diane Brady, and she
was talking really intimately about the difference between extroverts and
introverts as it pertains to being a CEO, and she
was like, I'm an extrovert. She knew who she was,
and she was like, the pandemic killed me. I was
like wanting to like go talk to like essential essential worker. Yeah. Yeah,
(32:31):
she was like I wanted to walk out. And for me,
I was like I was a in a like blanket.
I extended the pandemic two years by that behavior like
it gave me license to keep using it as an
excuse to never leave the house. So and then she
was talking about how entrepreneurs introverts are very good entrepreneurs
(32:51):
because they get really deep and granular and extroverts don't
have have more difficult time focusing. They may be good
at knowing a lot of different things, maybe at the
market about so many different companies and different topics, but
they don't they have a difficulty focusing.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
I think that's a really use just just to put
some you know, parentheses around it. I think that's I
think it's really astute in terms of introverts and extroverts
that if you look at CEO, someone who's doing all
the operations and managing all those operations and managing people, yeah,
you know, they're mostly extroverts. They have that ability visionaries,
(33:27):
you know, founders, entrepreneurs, they're more introverted. They're like, you know,
that's a very that's a that's more of a thing.
They wouldn't be running and managing a bunch of people.
So that's why when I when I look at you know,
like when Elon Musk kind of took over twitteratent is
not his you know, he's an inventor, right.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
And what are you? I'm totally an introvert and people
are shocked by that, but I can't. I hate managing
people from the so I'm the same way. I'm a
complete introvert.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Okay, interesting, I'm a complete and everybody says, so I'm
much more like the pandemic. I thrived in the pandemic
and and zoom became everything. So everybody, even I always say,
an act of love is that you don't invite me anywhere, right,
so you.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Cancel on me?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Right, So, so all of those that's that's but being creative, generative,
you know, collaborative and making something happen. Those that's you know,
that's where I thrive. And you don't want me running
your company.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
But this woman said that that that they draw upon
each other like, well, it's interesting though, because I find
that people. I've had people gravitate towards me because of
my like the light and the way that I am,
like my passion, which isn't about being an extrovert, and
(34:47):
sometimes they'll like dim my light as a result. It's
kind of a different thing. But I'm thinking who is
attracted to who introverts are attracted to extroverts or extroverts
because are two extroverts are not the best combination, right,
because you can't focus.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Well, well, you don't necessarily want to, you know when
when you're just back to the whole idea of knowing
your position, which you kind of started with, like yeah,
and knowing what your contribution is and people wanting to
be what they're not. Right, you know, this is really understanding.
You know how you where you fully express yourself and
what does that look like? And just like in a relationship,
(35:21):
if if you have two people the same issues, you
know that's problematic and you know, meaning like oh we're
going to run out of money, Yeah, we're going to die.
You don't want those two things or like god, look
out fat i am, look out a look at my butt.
You don't want both those all those issues colliding. You
want them missing. And that's the same with assets. When
you build a team, you know, the the CEO is
(35:42):
not the is not the CTO, and the CTO is
not the CEO, and the and the founders and the
visionaries not and they're all they're all And building a
profound championship team is understanding each person playing their position
perfectly and the intersect.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah, you could be in the I've had pe someone
who's seems who's in the wrong seat, but and they're
great in the right seat.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Like absolutely, just a little exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Okay, you could have someone who seems terrible because they're
in the wrong fucking seat. But if they're loyal and
seems smart enough, you should play musical chairs. And what's
interesting is that, So I'm at this Fortune event last night.
I'm sitting at the table with a woman very high
up at General Motors and another and we're next to uh,
Josh Kushner, uh, and the guy who is the CEO,
(36:27):
Sebastian of hult Renfrew, like major people. And this woman
Diane Brady next to me, who had an interesting conversation
with journalists and she's at Fortune. Now that's her, that's her.
She's the one who said it. But to be honest,
I have never heard anyone use it in human resources
and in staffing and in executive searches. And they should,
like you're not allowed to ask someone how old they are,
(36:48):
but you should be you should actually do the emotionally
intelligent conversation in staffing and ask are you an introvise?
This is no wrong answer, but here's the here's the quiz,
or give them the quiz, like it's like an IQ
quiz because it's true, Like I have been in relationships
with introverts many times because I'm attracted to someone similar
to me because they're gonna say I don't want to
go out either. But it's bad for me. It's bad
(37:10):
for me, and I haven't realized that because it's like
I get into like sort of like there's like a
film on us. It's like stale.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Understanding, you know, understanding and the one hundred of nuances
that go to those kind of headlines intovert an extrovert
r because underneath those two things are tons of nuances that, yeah,
that someone should use this as some sort of scrutiny
in terms of discerning like, well is this person the
right position? I mean, I'm doing that all day long.
In terms of subtle pivot. It's like just a little
(37:37):
subtle pivot and changes is a game changer with that
person or a dramatic pivot, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
But I think in this case the label is important
because I don't think that the average person if I
were applying for a job. They would not think that
I was an introvert.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
No, no, no, no, they wouldn't. They wouldn't have no
idea you.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Too, if someone were hiring you, Breck, they would.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Not No, no, absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So they might think you could manage bunch of people.
They might think you could be the head. You know.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
You know what I mean, I've done that. When I'm
pitching something that I really want you to take over this,
I go, that's a lesson you want me doing exactly,
And I say that directly. You know that's not I'm
not I'm not doing that, right.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
But that's because also you won't do obligation.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yes, so, but I was saying about Bethane. When you're
seeing being attracted to your light, that is what. That's
what someone who's an entrepreneur, visionary, you know, someone who
like you. People know that shit's going to happen over there.
This is something. This is you know, there's something creative,
something innovative, something will happen that will translate into, you know,
(38:38):
into the world. Right, So I think people know that, right.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
And I get vampired and I don't even realize it
is and then you.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Need to know who Then you need to know, like
who are you going to allow do that, because they
have to be complementary in terms of feeding you as
much as you feed that. Right, it's a it's that's
part of the dance.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
And by the way, that's a thing. That's another construct
that like could be a chapter in a book that
I never have thought about that and this age I've
never thought about that. I'm gonna draw certain people, but
if they're if we're not gonna be playing tennis where
I'm playing with a better tennis player and they're just
gonna draw off of me, but I'm not getting anything positive,
it's gonna kill me. And it's happened like it actually
(39:19):
you feel like you're just light is dimming. It's actually
happened to me.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
It's wild and that I mean, I'm possibly I don't
know if it's actually, you know, completely true. But that's
an age thing also where you then know that because
mostly you're just gonna you're gonna draw in everything because
that's what the light does. It'll draw in all kinds
of things. And then the ability to discern who you
actually collaborate with, who you're with, what.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
You're gonna do Mark that's exactly. My biggest problem. Literally,
access is my number one problem. Everyone around me. We
have to go on an access diet. Two things. Having
too many ideas is number one. But access it's insane.
Like I'll talk, I'll be giving my phone number to
the person that's bringing the ice bucket to the table
because they're like fun and they were so good at it,
like and people around me. But then to everybody in
(40:04):
business and everybody in charity and people around me like, stop,
we're on an access you can't know too much.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, And I think I do think that's a function
of a of age and wisdom where you just have
the ability to discern and that and that you start doing.
It's like one action impacts one hundred actions rather than
a hundred actions impact one hundred actions. Right, you really
use your leverage and your understanding and your discernment and
you and you honor the you know your capacity and
(40:30):
what you have to offer. I mean, I'm saying that
all the time. Like, you know, I remember years ago.
It's a it's a crazy story, but I remember this
person came to me and I don't know they were
kind of they were a client, but they said, I
really want to be. I really want to be friends
with you, brick correct, Like, he said, what are you seven?
It's an interesting thing like seven year olds do? I said,
He goes, I really want to be friends with you.
(40:52):
And I said, I can either tell you the truth
or nor your phone call. Which one do you want?
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Right?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
And he said, okay, tell me the truth. I go,
I would never be friends with you, and he said
what I said, you understand my friendships are based on
collaborative things. That doesn't mean emergencies don't happen. That doesn't
mean we're not there for each other. It means that
you know, we're not there's no draining of each other.
And I said, you would be draining the hell out
of me, right, And they said there'd be not enough
(41:19):
that you could bring that would actually, you know, change that.
So why don't you just keep coming to me until
you can be your own best friend? Okay? I like,
so that's so it's understanding, you know that, not from
an egotistical place. It's more from really understanding.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
And so it's actually selfless because you're being honest, and
it's useful for him.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Yeah, it's useful to see like, really, well, what is
it about me. That's doing that right, where's the neediness
in me? That's you know, and that's that's U telling
complete Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Yeah, So I could talk to Breck forever, and I'm
like exasperated today. I'm a little manic because there's so
many topics that I want to get you guys in
two with him, and next time there'll be ten more.
So I'm reminding myself the next time, I want to
talk about intervening in our own behavior. And also that
Breck has said batteries not including batteries are not included
in people like how we expect to either fix someone
(42:11):
or them to be everything, or to just start criticizing
what they are today when they're a fully formed human
being when you meet them, and also catastrophizing. So I
want to talk to you about a lot of things.
It's too many.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
There also just to add, I mean, there's so many
things you're right that can go on forever. And that's
the whole nature of just when we're talking about partnerships
or relationships, most people commit to their expectations, they don't
really commit to the to the actual person.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
They don't really all right, So that we're going to
get into that all right, So we got to do
this more. I could go for days, but you got
to get off.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
All right, all right, great talking, all.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Right, Oh my God, beyond bye Breck.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
After to a w B after
Hey, Brack. Okay, this is Brack Costin. I've known him.
Do you know how long we've known each other, Breck.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
It's probably been close to twenty years at this point, no.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
More, because I was like thirty thirty one, maybe even
younger anyway, so easily, No, I think it's twenty five.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, yeah, I've never I've never been with time.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
And yeah, I think I was like in my early thirties.
All right, So this is Breck Costin. I've known him
for years because a group of friends of mine had
found this Freedom course in LA and it was transformative
for them, and I liked the name Freedom, and I
was like at a crossroads with a relationship. Yeah, Breck,
I think it was earlier. It was like in my twenties. Yeah,
(00:55):
and I was. So that was like a long time ago,
maybe almost thirty years ago, and you could probably go
back and look at the dates. I probably still my
Freedom notebook upstairs. And I went to this like three
day immersive experience at Breck and uh learned a language
a lot of people use now that I actually know
is because of me, which we'll get into. And Breck's
sort of like oblivious to all that, like commercial stuff
in ways, which I like because like he never knows
(01:17):
how many times I use his words, but I do
always give him credit, but like other people do also.
So Breck is a life coach slash non traditional therapist
but not like a doctor. And we've known each other
for years and we talk fairly regularly, and he's a
great guy and he's had a big life, and I
(01:39):
wanted to have him on here. I think you came
on years ago when I started.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
No I never came on as a podcast. We did
you and you had your talk show?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
You didn't, I think we did, but maybe yeah we
did in the very beginning, one hundred.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Percent telling you you know, it's way too long now
I can't remember apparently, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Mean one hundred percent. In the very very beginning we talked.
So you're in LA and we spoke the other day,
and I thought that hopefully you'd want to come on more,
but I'll sort of drive and I wanted to just
like bring up different concepts that we've discussed over the
years that jump off the page to me, and also
that you probably don't even know that I've discussed the
(02:18):
people and have jumped off the page with them. So
like you talk about a million things, but like probably
the things you wouldn't even think would be the biggest thing.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, that's true. I mean, you know, people will take
away what they think is really relevant and resonates. And
I think we're, you know, as a as a coach
or just as as a person who's contributing, You're you're
always looking for different portals and different metaphors and different language, music,
anything you can that you think will get something from
your mouth to someone's ear that will be useful, right,
like digestible and people respond to you know, two different
(02:48):
different image imagery, different music, different rhythms, different metaphors. So
it's kind of figuring out what's what will translate for
each person.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
So I guess we'll go with the biggest ticket item.
I was going to do Charming, which we'll do after
because they really surprises people on the charming. I had
a podcast called Charming is a Red Flag and it
was it was very It had a lot of impact,
which was shocking because it really people. It spoke to
people because charming is used as something positive. But let
me just park that for one second. Okay, let's talk
about noise. Okay, many people use the term noise as
(03:20):
a result of me commercializing the term noise as a
result of learning it from you at the Freedom course,
and I took it to another level. You talked about
food noise and money noise, and different people have different
noise or like talking about someone's particularly noisy in that area.
And I wrote a book called Naturally Thin about food noise.
(03:43):
But I've seen people, I've seen on social media other
people talk about it. They don't even realize that it
came from me and that it came from you. So
just talk. Let's talk about noise for a little bit, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
So and I like that, you know, I love that.
As you said, you know, I kind of think of
myself as me the scenes, and not to diminish any
other coaches or any other people who are in the
working in you know, transformational world or in a self
help world, spiritual world. But I just think the contract
really is is that you're you're a source, right, you know,
(04:15):
you're not the you know, you're not not that you
can't be the mouthpiece for what you're delivering, but you're
actually the source, and you want other people to be
able to deliver that from their own particular expression, right,
and they make it their own, they take it to
a whole other level. So that's always exciting for me
when you know, like as you take noise and kind
of disseminate it so it becomes part of the vernacular,
(04:36):
part of the culture. Right. I like that. I like
watching that those kinds of things happen.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
They say the best relationships are the rock and the stars.
So you have many stars that you talk to, but
like you're they're the star. You're the rock, Like you're
behind the.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Scenes and understanding. Like any great team, you understand your position,
you know, and you play your position. And I think
a lot of times where it's conflicted, and I'll get
into noise even from this context, think for a lot
of people that they're they're they're so wanting to play
a position that they're just not designed for and it's
and it's just and then and I consider that to
(05:09):
be one of the you know, when you're trying to
compete where you're not competitive, it is it is a
source of suffering. Wow, it is. And people will spend
years and years and years trying to squeeze them into
something that they just weren't designed to do. And so,
and that goes right into noise as well. So noise
is this very basically, it's your really your internal commentary
(05:29):
that's good or bad. Now, this is what people think,
they oh, good noise is good. I'm saying no, no,
good noise. You're trying to keep around. Bad noise you're
trying to get rid of. So it has you either way.
It holds you hostage either way.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So you're saying, like, the absence of noise is real,
true piece. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, that's where freedom and peace is right. And if
you look at when you're the most brilliant, you're when
you look at where your essence is being fully expressed,
and it's the essential you, it's when there's no noise.
So that's a singer singing in front of the sick
two thousand people, and they're not trying to remember their lyrics.
They're not remembering they're connected to the audience. They're expressing themselves.
They're they don't have like oh man, I'm crushing it
(06:09):
or I'm you know, or this when badly.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Meaning like even if it's family noise and you're managing it,
you're still having to deal with that. You're thinking about
it positive, like I've got it under control. That's noisy too,
and bad noises.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, so management, the management of something is even more.
I kind of think of this as like a feral tiger, Like,
you know, your noise can be running rampant and just
eating anything that's on the African plane, right, feral, and
then when it comes up a solution to a problem, Okay,
I'll manage this. I'll just quester this animal, this ferocious animal,
and that just as bad. Right. It's literally like this
(06:45):
is a Siegfreedo and roy of noise is they know
how to work with white tigers, you know. They they
made millions of dollars working with with this, you know,
So it's a it's understanding. It's understanding how to work
with you know, your own, you know animal. I'll talk
about survival noise in that regard as well, but it
really is understanding that when you are truly there is
(07:05):
when there's no noise. So that's that's when you like,
in this conversation that we're having, if you and I
were going, God, I hope this is going well. I
wonder if this is going all right or our internal
dialogue was like, I'm not sure what to say.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
It's noisy, Yeah, it'd be like a noise. Well, that's
funny because in the book Naturally Thin, the way that
I took it to the next level, which I forgot
until this exact moment, is I said that with people
with food, they wanted to turn their noise into a voice,
like you're having just a conversation. I'm about to have
a meal, and this what I'm gonna have versus I
was bad, I was good. I ate so much so
(07:37):
I have to beat myself up and eat more or
I have to eat nothing like that's managing. That's noisy,
but just being like okay, chocolate I wanted, and I'm
you know, next, I'm doing this like have it be
like a voice, which to me seemed calmer.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well it's not only calmer, but you know that it's
it's I see this in phases bethany where you kind
of like are first of all recognizing it's coming out
of the ethers. You're recognizing if as an internal dialogue
rather that's just your personality or that's just the way
it is. So you're seeing some distinction between oh, this
isn't me, this is the noise in my head. But
(08:12):
most people associate the noise in their head with them.
And when you are your essential you, there's no noise,
and it's a strange phenomenon, like, oh, when I'm truly
being myself, it's when there's no noise that's happening.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
That's the most meditative state, is being.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Just just there, right, yeah, So, and I think in
a world attempting that right to get to that. So,
I call that the thing you just mentioned, the cherry
pie I made it up as a cherry pye conflict.
And that is like, okay, you got to you got
to lunch, you got to dinner. And the waiter says, okay,
would you like dessert? And it says with a cherry pie.
(08:47):
Person goes no, you know, no, I'm not gonna have
any cherry pie, and so and and he goes ask again,
do you want any cherry pie? And Vera says no,
I don't want a cherry pie. And so throughout the
day you're like, hey, you know I didn't eat that
cherry pie. I didn't eat the cherry pie at all.
You know, you didn't have the cherry pie. But you're
still being dominated by cherry pie, when whether you ate
it or not, you.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Should have just had, yeah, take a bite, a couple
of bites of it. Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Whether you ate it or not.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
That's noisy.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, and that's what noise looks like.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Well, also, I want to tell everyone that, and we
can move to something else because I think they maybe
get it. But like that when Breck introduced it to me,
because we're talking about thirty years ago, but I have
a crazy memory for this stuff. You've taught so many
different things and talked about so many different things. But
I want to like take people back to what I
learned that He talked about how each person has different
(09:35):
Someone could have religion, noise, food, noise, money, noise, age, noise, vanity, noise,
like it could be anything. It could be all the
seven Deadly sins. It's just you could be noisy about something.
It could it could be anything, right, Like, it could
be the Emperor has no clothes or I'm not I'm
even someone has billion dollars. They could still think they're
going to lose it all.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Oh no, no, that happens. I mean, have a lot
of clients just like you know, who have you know,
storty amount of money, and there they can be the
most terrified.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Okay, So that that's overall. Noise can be different for
every single person.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
But the goal it doesn't mean that noise doesn't produce.
It doesn't mean that it can't produce, meaning like you
can make a ton of money in a certain area. Right.
But the thing is is that it mostly where you
have no noise is where you're the most created, most
most evolved, most accomplished, most you know, most evolutionary. Right.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Well, that's interesting, Okay, So this is why that's interesting
to me because usually the thing that the person's most
obsessed with, you've called it, their plates of wounding, the
thing that they're thinking about the most, is the thing
that isn't coming naturally to them. And I also think
that like between sleep and wake is when all my
best ideas come, and when I'm the most relaxed, is
(10:46):
when my amazing like ideas they just come to solve
a problem that I've had forever. And that's quiet, it's
literally quiet.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Well, yeah, you can't you can't solve you know, certainly,
you know you can can't be creative or innovative or
generative when fear or shame is dominating. Right, It's it's
a it's a threat, right, So why I say it
can it can produce? It means that someone can can
start like they're there, can start start their mote or
(11:17):
their engine. In terms of I don't want to be
like that. I'm going to change my circumstances. I'm going
to drive something, right, So, like the difference between ambition
and invention is you can start something from a place
of noise, right, you can. It can kick off from
place like I don't want to be like my dad.
I don't want to be like my mom, and I
don't want to live like this. I'm wanting to do
something from a reactive place. But in order for it
(11:39):
to fulfill and move, it's got to move into an
evolutionary creative place where it's not driven drop driven from
that that source. So we're all we're always looking at
at you know, what is it that? What is it
that has us? And what is it that we have
right and what is holding us hostage? And what do
I actually have? So today, you know, we're just riddled
(12:00):
with anxiety, right, And anxiety is I mean just kind
of globally anxiety is trying to get control of something
of no control over right, and so people come up
with tons of solutions to that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Like you're you're saying, because you talk about this with
charm too, anxiety has us and you say that charm
has people too, Like, so go into like how these
things are having us, Like, we're going to that because
I think that's interesting. Most people don't say that.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Okay, So when I say someone can be productive, I'm
saying that they don't know that. People don't distinguish out enough.
You know, what is it, you know where they have
noise and no noise, so it just looks like, oh,
I if that I'm being manic here, And I'm going, well, no,
you're actually not being manic there. You know here you're
pretty freed up. Here you're manic and you're collapsing both
(12:52):
of those those things. So someone could be have their
craft just to kind of finish that up. Their craft
could be Jordan like, they'd be able to play the
guitar brilliantly. They can do that, but their career is noisy,
so they never fulfill in their career. But they could
be the best, the best guitarist in the world, and
people understand, Well, if I'm really great at this out come,
this isn't fulfilling. And someone can be mediocre in their
(13:16):
craft but really freed up in their career, right, meaning
they have all this room to make mistakes, to fail,
to lose, to move right. And so you know, watching,
you know, watching where things produce and how they produce,
you know, is my entire kind of work, right, Like,
what is what is it that has someone be effective,
you know in a particular way. So the question that
(13:38):
you're asking is, I consider identities. I look at identities,
and the identity is a way you want to be
seen or a way you do not want to be seen. Right,
So I want to I might want to be seen
as smart. I can't be seen as stupid. I want
to be seen as a tractor. I can't be seen
as ugly. I obt to see this as powerful. They
can't be seen as weak.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I feel like you used to call that image. Also
is that are you saying that's.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
The same, Well I did, it was? It was an
image has a much broader context, okay, right, But the
identity is very specific. You know, we walk around, you know,
wanting me seen in a particular way. And if we're
not seen in a particular way, we get reactive, threatened, disconsolate,
something like that. So I always consider that identities have you,
(14:22):
qualities and characteristics you have. So this is there to
your point about charming. So you could have an identity
of loyal like you need to be seen as a
loyal person. That's an identity, right, So you're loyal to
a fault, s you'll stay in situations long after you should.
You don't get out fast enough. You ally yourself to
(14:42):
things you shouldn't because you've got a dysfunction, so you're
not seeing things correctly. So loyal to a fault is problematic.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yep, agreed. And that's almost like the obligation to a fault.
When people constantly have to go, they always have to
show up. It feels disingenuous, like they're doing it to
check the box.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So with regards to loyalty as a characteristic equality, that's
different than an identity. I mean you have loyalty, Loyalty
doesn't have you. So you can be loyal to the
appropriate situations, you can exit situations appropriately, and you can
be disloyal if you have loyal I mean, I'm not
going to be loyal to someone who's saying, you know,
(15:20):
an asshole or someone who's doing this, right, But you
can't be disloyal if loyalty to a fault has you.
So that is true for everything. So it could be
so everything to be positive or negative depending on the context.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Okay, so talk about obligation, because everybody that's listening is
doing a bunch of things they don't actually want to
be doing. And I do many things for other people,
but I don't do anything anywhere that I don't want
to do. And I think that's jarring, and I.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
That's revolution that's this almost is like you now we're
talking kind of like graduate school in terms of self help,
just because it really is such a revolutionary concept because
it looks completely selfish. Yes, because someone says, but what
looks what looks one way to the culture might be
entirely different to what's actually true.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
So if someone is saying, oh, you you know, you
never do anything, you know, obligatorily, and I go and
I say, yeah, I don't, and they go, well, that's
just completely selfish. I go, well, actually know it's selfless
because who wants someone around who's doing something as they're
a pain in the ass. They're doing it for you.
(16:46):
They're sanctimonious about it, they're self righteous about it, and
that's not yielding anything. It's no benefit to any right.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I don't like when people count who gave a gift
to give a gift back. I don't want any gifts.
I have one, no gifts. Gifts giving is literally my
love language. I don't want any because I'm not giving
a gift because I want something back or because I
got something. They have nothing to do with each other,
and it irritates me when I hear someone, well, can
you believe they came to the wedding and they only
did whatever? Who gives a shit that? So I hate
(17:15):
that shit. I hate counting. That's the opposite of being
a good person.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
An obligation can can just like you said that, it
can trans can translate to many many situations. It can
go to it can go to gift giving. It can
go to emotional context like I love you. I didn't
hear it back, right, You're obligated to say it back,
so it can be I agree with that too. That's
(17:40):
so ridiculous. It can be on emotional context, it can
be in a physical context, obligation can translate to many
many different situations. So obligation, you know, to live a
life obligation free, right, meaning you know, I'm only going
to do things that I want to do, and I'm
only going to do things that I say I'm gonna
do or I'm not going to do them, right. And
(18:02):
you know, like when someone goes, well, what if your
wife asks you to do something to me, I go,
that's usually my pleasure. You know, I want to do
something for it. It's not an obligation right, right.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
But you may not totally want to do that thing,
but you want to do like.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
But you want to do that for them because you
know what it'll.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Like Yes, I'm saying yes exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
So that's for people get stuck. And you know, in
my marriage, I mean I think it's been really generous
in that way. Like if I say I don't want
to do exit like something simple like Jene goes, oh,
the dishes are the in the sink. Yeah, I said
I didn't want to do them. She goes, Okay, so
it's it's gonna be as simple as that, and then
they get done you know down the road right where
(18:39):
it's kind of something you want to do, but it's
like literally simple.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Well no if she lets that go a couple of times,
and it's like says to you like it would be
nice if you did them, but doesn't give you damage
next time you might want to do them. It's kind
of like this weekend, I was with someone that I
care about and I was exhausted, and I just I
am always activated, but I'm when I do a lot
of things that involve other people, I really need to restore.
And it could be like organizing sweaters, or like looking
(19:05):
at lip gloss or just staring at the TV. I
just need to be alone ish, or like wandering in
a house with someone else there, but not like a
you know, in an obligation mode. Yes, so this person
is an extrovert and I'm more of an introvert. And
they said, my cousin's in town and I was in
the Hampton's and do you want to go for lunch
with him? Now? I really didn't want to go, but
I really care about this person who's doing a lot
(19:27):
of things for me and and really caring. And I said,
I first just want to know if you care if
I go or not, Like I just want to know
where you stand with it.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, that was the question I go to say, is
this important to you?
Speaker 1 (19:38):
That I go like do you care? Like how much?
On a one to ten, because often you're not communicating
and you just say yes and then you resent it
or you say no and they resent that you said no,
even though they didn't really care. But it was the
way that it was discussed. I said, listen, you, if
it's really important to you, then we should discuss that.
I wasn't even ready to go yet. I just was
ready to say, if it's really important, you should discuss that.
I on my own vacuum don't want to go, but like,
(20:02):
if it's really important to you, because as a family member,
that's a discussion. And then he was like it's really
not and I was like, okay, great, I really don't
want to go. And then later he was gone for
like three hours and he was worried that it was
too long, and that became a I'm like, no, like
not to make you feel bad. You could go for
five hours like I you know, I want eventually I
want you to come back and not be But it's
(20:22):
like that kind of stuff. It like frees you up
because you could really go on the wrong road. You
could go and resent it.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
First of all, you're always looking to maintain like you're
now talking relationship stuff, so you're talking, so you always
are looking to maintain the affinity of the connection, the
love connection and the relationship. That's kind of like the intention, right,
and in between fights and disagreements and you don't feel
appreciated or whatever people's issues are, you know, that can
(20:49):
be that can that can get threatened that affinity, right,
So those kinds of conversations of like, well is this
important to you? No, it's not, okay, then I'm not
going to go, and it maintains the affinity in the
relationship rather than I'm just not going right.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
No, you're right, or like going and resenting. I do
ask a lot if something's important, because someone one said
to me years ago, Dennis, who you knew, He said,
if it's important to you, it's important to me. He
didn't act that way, but I liked the sentence.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I do too, and I like and I like that too.
So it's obligation. So you live a life obligation free, right,
So you take away the victim. That's really what you're doing.
Because a victim is somewhere something or someone.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Smarter like the marthing, or someone's.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Doing something to you. You take away the victim in
the conversation, right, and then we so get into those
habits of acting like victims and situations and and living
life implication free. So obligation and implication free are like
implication free means you know what it means about you.
If I do this, I'm a good person. If I
don't do this, I'm a bad person. Right, And people
live mostly obligatorily.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
No, they want and they check the butt, they want
the scorecard. It's counting, which is the opposite of a
good relationship, is counting anything.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, you're looking to live a life you know, obligation free,
implication free, and you're more generous, you're more creative, you're
more connected, you're more communication and you have less noise
in your head.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Bravo. So we've accomplished. Okay, let's get into charm. So
tell me about charming. I'm eating a little bite of
my snack because I have very breakfast. Let's talk about charming.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So you know, when someone says and usually charm is
associated with you know, men or masculine. Let's call it
that way, you know, can take it.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Wow? Yeah, right, so explain that.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, So you know, we don't usually say the woman's charming.
We will use a different term for that. Oh god,
she's really gracious, she's really sweet, you know, sweet like
all kinds of different things. But that's associated culturally with
a man, right, and it's usually associated in a really
favorable way. Right now. The thing about charm is that
(22:51):
it's and people people don't like this, But I considered
myself quite charming, you know, early on, So I figured
I can get away with talking about this, right even
I've got you know, it's like someone like who's who's
If you've got the wound, you can really talk about
the wound, right.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So you probably were really charming. That's why you know
about it so well? Yeah, because you would just guys,
Breck was like a hotshot data models, party like a
rock star, came from money, trust fun like big swinging dick.
The whole thing, had a life. Life humbled you. You
probably were a charming motherfucker with that money and the
(23:27):
models and the looks and all that shit in New
York City partying in La got it? Okay?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, So I mean so I feel like I have
a strong sense of this right now. You can also
have a strong sense of how, you know how the
narcissistic wound that's associated with charming right which is very
you know, it's a it's a painful thing for people
to say, but that's what it is. Why is it?
Because it if you're a man who's incredibly charming, you
(23:53):
are you create an addiction of meeting that kind of
attention and that kind of feedback. Do you know you
go to a party, you go to this and something
has to be said about you.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Okay, So I want to tell everybody because this was
I talked about this. It's the guy who sometimes not you,
but sometimes the charming is the hey Dan, how's your
golf game? And like real Gregario is then at home
like treating his wife like shit, or I've had that scenario.
I've also had this scenario where the guy's like the bro,
real bro, real friend, you know, just hugging everybody and
(24:24):
good looking and everybody likes him and girls like it,
and he's a life of the party and like the
peacock like and you're right, because it is an addiction,
they just go to it right away. It works so well,
and go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
So it becomes really your go to in as a man,
and and that's and you and it gets narrowed down
so that becomes mostly your entire or you're you're organized
around what you're driven by, you know, getting feedback for
how charming you are, needing to seduce all the time,
whether it's men or women. You're just you're like an
animal and is constantly generating that.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
You're singing the karaoke song, You're doing the shots, You're
a charming, the mom you got, everybody loves you.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Whatever's required. If what's required is be completely quiet, what's
required to be totally entertaining, what's required to be this
You're you're you're managing whatever you need to do to
get that feedback. Wow, so and and it and it
becomes an addiction like anything else. That's why age can
be really challenging for people as they you know, as
(25:24):
they fall and they don't have the same skills, they
don't do the same resources that they had. So what
I all say to women, and women will say this
right as well, is if you see someone who's particularly charming,
run for the hills.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I literally called the podcast charming is a red flag.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, so run for the hills because in two years
you're gonna hate this guy. You're gonna hate, You're gonna go,
I'm gonna kill this guy.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
The very thing that you found so fascinating that the stick,
this bit is gonna make you sick, it.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Is, and in two years you're gonna be out of
your mind. Right. So I say I say this to
women when women go, you know, I'm in marrying my
yoga instructor. I go. Just because he can put his
you know, legs around his head doesn't mean that he's
got emotional flexibility. Don't confuse those two, right. I'm not
saying he doesn't. I'm saying that those are different phenomenas.
There's a different photomen be meean spiritual evolution, creative evolution,
(26:19):
emotional evolution, right, and these things so a lot of times,
and that can be a highly seductive thing for you know,
and and dating charm. So I'm saying most men, other
men who so who have integrity, you know, a sense
of themselves and a sense of you know, kind of
a moral compass in terms of who they are and
(26:40):
what they are, and they don't need all that feedback,
they have a stronger sense to themselves. They can have charm,
So meaning you can have charmed from a context of integrity, right,
But if charm is your whole story, that's where it's problematic.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
It's owning you, it's wearing you.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, it's it's what it has your own habit. So
it doesn't mean you can't have charm. It just can't.
It's got to be like anything. You've got to be
able to pick it up and put it down and
use it, and it's got to be more more mobile
in play in all that way. And most men who
have integrity and have a great deal of respect dismiss charm.
They'll see other men and they'll they'll dismiss it because
(27:17):
they can smell like it's it's self centered, it's narcissistic,
it's it's superficial, it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Have enough weight love it wow.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
And so you've got to be interested. And this is
always the game that you know, for me, loss is
always the game that you're willing to lose what you
consider maybe your most important asset for the possibility of
your own evolution.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Well, it's funny you say that, because the way I
think of it is things that you're good for and
things that are good for you. So I used to
remember friends of our Shannon, et cetera. I used to
produce events, large scale events, multimillion dollar events, the Grammy's,
the Emmys, on the Rock, Alcatraz. No one was ever
better at it than I was. No one you could
ask the woman who ran all the events at Disney.
(27:59):
My body line was perfect, my P and L sheet.
I missed out a detail. I didn't I picked up
every floral, like every chair.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Like I mean, yeah, that mad that make perfect sense
because I'm.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Sick like so. But I was great for it. It
wasn't great for me. So I had to be like
you know, And that's what goes on in my work
every day. Things that I'm good at, and my whole
entire team relies on me for all the details in
the detail of every video and every caption and all
the weeds because I'm amazing at them, but they're not
good for me. And it's like a discipline for the
people around me. Like you guys cannot come to Mommy
(28:32):
for every single question otherwise I cannot do what I
need to do in my business. It's not good for me.
So that's sort of my like cross to bear is
what I'm good for, but what's not good for me?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, and those are those are and they can be
very different, right they can. They can be very very different. So,
and that's also understanding what's bankrupt, you know as it
because because you can be highly productive and have no
sense of that illution. Yes, do you know what I mean?
Like you know? I mean you can. You can make
a billion dollars, you can do all kinds of things,
and yet your sense of self, your development, you know,
(29:08):
you're still maintaining the same You're still maintaining the same
way of being because.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
You do the same exercise at the gym every time.
My inclination is to solve the problem, is to tell
you I'm dealing with the situation with this guy or
with Brin's school, or with work, and go attack and
produce the problem and use it like a relief effort
and solve it. But I'm not growing, I'm a feeling.
I'm not learning. I just know how to like wrap
it up. And so Millin to my therapist, who you've met,
will be like, now she's not like a how do
(29:34):
you feel? But she doesn't really care about me, giving
her like the news, sports and weather. She wants to
like get to like what's going on about it?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, like what what is the what is the thing
that you're that you have kind of have to lose
in order to gain Now, people think that they're going
to lose their their essential asset, and I'm going no,
that's an illusion that they The essential asset just moves
into the foundation of your life. It's no longer in
the foreground, right, but you have to have that noise
(30:01):
back to noise. That noise in your head is like
if you if you introduce a new possibility something and
I don't care where it's an emotional possibility, like you know,
I want to be I want to I want to
be on time I don't know, or I want to
I want to complete things. I want to what I say,
I'm going to start a complete whatever you introduce or
I want to be more compassionate. Whatever you might introduce,
(30:22):
you also introduce because you wouldn't be introducing that if
it was something that you didn't have. You're introducing it
because it's something you don't have that you're wanting, right,
And so if you're introducing that you're also introducing the loss,
the loss of well, wait, may I won't I won't
be able to produce over here, or I won't be
effective over here, or this might you know, fall apart.
(30:43):
So that's the fear. That's why when someone says, well,
most people don't change, they're not wrong, just because what
it requires to change is huge.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
You mean, like, I'm stopping drinking, so I'm not gonna
be the life of the party anymore. I'm overweight, I'm
losing weight. I'm not going to be joevial exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, there's that Friends, that episode about fun, and I
think it's fun Bobby Worth, right, Oh god, Bobby's coming over,
you know, because he is an alcoholic and he was
hysterical and now and he's no longer drinking and he's
not fun anymore, right, which is not accurate. It's not
you know, lots of people have been sober for years
who are incredibly entertaining and great and creative at all
and more productive than ever. So it's not a function
(31:20):
of that, but it is a function of not being
afraid to lose. And I think and I look at
that as one of the major themes of evolution, right,
that you're willing in some area to you know, to
lose in a powerful, profound way.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Okay, so now I have two little things. So the
two things I want to talk about are something you
said recently about people don't come batteries are not included
the way that we start like catastrophizing and thinking about something.
But they're not this, but they're this, or they're different
than the last person. And I was with and like,
and you've said, like battery, people don't come with batteries.
That's one concept, and then the other one is like
(32:07):
I don't think this is just like a bit. But
when I was talking to a writer who works for
Fortune magazine last night, this woman Diane Brady, and she
was talking really intimately about the difference between extroverts and
introverts as it pertains to being a CEO, and she
was like, I'm an extrovert. She knew who she was,
and she was like, the pandemic killed me. I was
like wanting to like go talk to like essential essential worker. Yeah. Yeah,
(32:31):
she was like I wanted to walk out. And for me,
I was like I was a in a like blanket.
I extended the pandemic two years by that behavior like
it gave me license to keep using it as an
excuse to never leave the house. So and then she
was talking about how entrepreneurs introverts are very good entrepreneurs
(32:51):
because they get really deep and granular and extroverts don't
have have more difficult time focusing. They may be good
at knowing a lot of different things, maybe at the
market about so many different companies and different topics, but
they don't they have a difficulty focusing.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
I think that's a really use just just to put
some you know, parentheses around it. I think that's I
think it's really astute in terms of introverts and extroverts
that if you look at CEO, someone who's doing all
the operations and managing all those operations and managing people, yeah,
you know, they're mostly extroverts. They have that ability visionaries,
(33:27):
you know, founders, entrepreneurs, they're more introverted. They're like, you know,
that's a very that's a that's more of a thing.
They wouldn't be running and managing a bunch of people.
So that's why when I when I look at you know,
like when Elon Musk kind of took over twitteratent is
not his you know, he's an inventor, right.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
And what are you? I'm totally an introvert and people
are shocked by that, but I can't. I hate managing
people from the so I'm the same way. I'm a
complete introvert.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Okay, interesting, I'm a complete and everybody says, so I'm
much more like the pandemic. I thrived in the pandemic
and and zoom became everything. So everybody, even I always say,
an act of love is that you don't invite me anywhere, right,
so you.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Cancel on me?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Right, So, so all of those that's that's but being creative, generative,
you know, collaborative and making something happen. Those that's you know,
that's where I thrive. And you don't want me running
your company.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
But this woman said that that that they draw upon
each other like, well, it's interesting though, because I find
that people. I've had people gravitate towards me because of
my like the light and the way that I am,
like my passion, which isn't about being an extrovert, and
(34:47):
sometimes they'll like dim my light as a result. It's
kind of a different thing. But I'm thinking who is
attracted to who introverts are attracted to extroverts or extroverts
because are two extroverts are not the best combination, right,
because you can't focus.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Well, well, you don't necessarily want to, you know when
when you're just back to the whole idea of knowing
your position, which you kind of started with, like yeah,
and knowing what your contribution is and people wanting to
be what they're not. Right, you know, this is really understanding.
You know how you where you fully express yourself and
what does that look like? And just like in a relationship,
(35:21):
if if you have two people the same issues, you
know that's problematic and you know, meaning like oh we're
going to run out of money, Yeah, we're going to die.
You don't want those two things or like god, look
out fat i am, look out a look at my butt.
You don't want both those all those issues colliding. You
want them missing. And that's the same with assets. When
you build a team, you know, the the CEO is
(35:42):
not the is not the CTO, and the CTO is
not the CEO, and the and the founders and the
visionaries not and they're all they're all And building a
profound championship team is understanding each person playing their position
perfectly and the intersect.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah, you could be in the I've had pe someone
who's seems who's in the wrong seat, but and they're
great in the right seat.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Like absolutely, just a little exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Okay, you could have someone who seems terrible because they're
in the wrong fucking seat. But if they're loyal and
seems smart enough, you should play musical chairs. And what's
interesting is that, So I'm at this Fortune event last night.
I'm sitting at the table with a woman very high
up at General Motors and another and we're next to uh,
Josh Kushner, uh, and the guy who is the CEO,
(36:27):
Sebastian of hult Renfrew, like major people. And this woman
Diane Brady next to me, who had an interesting conversation
with journalists and she's at Fortune. Now that's her, that's her.
She's the one who said it. But to be honest,
I have never heard anyone use it in human resources
and in staffing and in executive searches. And they should,
like you're not allowed to ask someone how old they are,
(36:48):
but you should be you should actually do the emotionally
intelligent conversation in staffing and ask are you an introvise?
This is no wrong answer, but here's the here's the quiz,
or give them the quiz, like it's like an IQ
quiz because it's true, Like I have been in relationships
with introverts many times because I'm attracted to someone similar
to me because they're gonna say I don't want to
go out either. But it's bad for me. It's bad
(37:10):
for me, and I haven't realized that because it's like
I get into like sort of like there's like a
film on us. It's like stale.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Understanding, you know, understanding and the one hundred of nuances
that go to those kind of headlines intovert an extrovert
r because underneath those two things are tons of nuances that, yeah,
that someone should use this as some sort of scrutiny
in terms of discerning like, well is this person the
right position? I mean, I'm doing that all day long.
In terms of subtle pivot. It's like just a little
(37:37):
subtle pivot and changes is a game changer with that
person or a dramatic pivot, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
But I think in this case the label is important
because I don't think that the average person if I
were applying for a job. They would not think that
I was an introvert.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
No, no, no, no, they wouldn't. They wouldn't have no
idea you.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Too, if someone were hiring you, Breck, they would.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Not No, no, absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So they might think you could manage bunch of people.
They might think you could be the head. You know.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
You know what I mean, I've done that. When I'm
pitching something that I really want you to take over this,
I go, that's a lesson you want me doing exactly,
And I say that directly. You know that's not I'm
not I'm not doing that, right.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
But that's because also you won't do obligation.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yes, so, but I was saying about Bethane. When you're
seeing being attracted to your light, that is what. That's
what someone who's an entrepreneur, visionary, you know, someone who
like you. People know that shit's going to happen over there.
This is something. This is you know, there's something creative,
something innovative, something will happen that will translate into, you know,
(38:38):
into the world. Right, So I think people know that, right.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
And I get vampired and I don't even realize it
is and then you.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Need to know who Then you need to know, like
who are you going to allow do that, because they
have to be complementary in terms of feeding you as
much as you feed that. Right, it's a it's that's
part of the dance.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
And by the way, that's a thing. That's another construct
that like could be a chapter in a book that
I never have thought about that and this age I've
never thought about that. I'm gonna draw certain people, but
if they're if we're not gonna be playing tennis where
I'm playing with a better tennis player and they're just
gonna draw off of me, but I'm not getting anything positive,
it's gonna kill me. And it's happened like it actually
(39:19):
you feel like you're just light is dimming. It's actually
happened to me.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
It's wild and that I mean, I'm possibly I don't
know if it's actually, you know, completely true. But that's
an age thing also where you then know that because
mostly you're just gonna you're gonna draw in everything because
that's what the light does. It'll draw in all kinds
of things. And then the ability to discern who you
actually collaborate with, who you're with, what.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
You're gonna do Mark that's exactly. My biggest problem. Literally,
access is my number one problem. Everyone around me. We
have to go on an access diet. Two things. Having
too many ideas is number one. But access it's insane.
Like I'll talk, I'll be giving my phone number to
the person that's bringing the ice bucket to the table
because they're like fun and they were so good at it,
like and people around me. But then to everybody in
(40:04):
business and everybody in charity and people around me like, stop,
we're on an access you can't know too much.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, And I think I do think that's a function
of a of age and wisdom where you just have
the ability to discern and that and that you start doing.
It's like one action impacts one hundred actions rather than
a hundred actions impact one hundred actions. Right, you really
use your leverage and your understanding and your discernment and
you and you honor the you know your capacity and
(40:30):
what you have to offer. I mean, I'm saying that
all the time. Like, you know, I remember years ago.
It's a it's a crazy story, but I remember this
person came to me and I don't know they were
kind of they were a client, but they said, I
really want to be. I really want to be friends
with you, brick correct, Like, he said, what are you seven?
It's an interesting thing like seven year olds do? I said,
He goes, I really want to be friends with you.
(40:52):
And I said, I can either tell you the truth
or nor your phone call. Which one do you want?
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Right?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
And he said, okay, tell me the truth. I go,
I would never be friends with you, and he said
what I said, you understand my friendships are based on
collaborative things. That doesn't mean emergencies don't happen. That doesn't
mean we're not there for each other. It means that
you know, we're not there's no draining of each other.
And I said, you would be draining the hell out
of me, right, And they said there'd be not enough
(41:19):
that you could bring that would actually, you know, change that.
So why don't you just keep coming to me until
you can be your own best friend? Okay? I like,
so that's so it's understanding, you know that, not from
an egotistical place. It's more from really understanding.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
And so it's actually selfless because you're being honest, and
it's useful for him.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Yeah, it's useful to see like, really, well, what is
it about me. That's doing that right, where's the neediness
in me? That's you know, and that's that's U telling
complete Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Yeah, So I could talk to Breck forever, and I'm
like exasperated today. I'm a little manic because there's so
many topics that I want to get you guys in
two with him, and next time there'll be ten more.
So I'm reminding myself the next time, I want to
talk about intervening in our own behavior. And also that
Breck has said batteries not including batteries are not included
in people like how we expect to either fix someone
(42:11):
or them to be everything, or to just start criticizing
what they are today when they're a fully formed human
being when you meet them, and also catastrophizing. So I
want to talk to you about a lot of things.
It's too many.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
There also just to add, I mean, there's so many
things you're right that can go on forever. And that's
the whole nature of just when we're talking about partnerships
or relationships, most people commit to their expectations, they don't
really commit to the to the actual person.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
They don't really all right, So that we're going to
get into that all right, So we got to do
this more. I could go for days, but you got
to get off.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
All right, all right, great talking, all.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Right, Oh my God, beyond bye Breck.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
After to a w B after
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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