Paulina Porizkova

Paulina Porizkova joins Bethenny and shares supermodel secrets good and bad.

Paulina opens up to Bethenny about what went wrong in her relationship with her late husband and the truth about the hurtful note he left behind.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
My guest today is model and author Paulina Poriskova. Paulina
has had a fascinating monumental career. At one point, the
world saw her as a model who married a rock star,
but she is so much more than that. In this conversation,
we talked about the pressure to keep looking young as
we age, what it means to be a modeling, current culture,
and Paulina's experience processing feelings of grief and betrayal after

(00:34):
her husband Cars frontman Eric Okay Sick died. I found
this conversation incredible, so real, so inspiring, so honest. I
can't wait for you to hear it. Well, I just
I was walking around my kitchen last night and I
was thinking, I'm entering Paulina tomorrow. And it's funny because

(00:58):
I didn't have any level of you know, success, societal
success until my late thirties, and there is such a
long time of you being so so mega famous and
iconic in my life that sometimes I say, I can't
believe I'm interviewing Paulina tomorrow, Like Paulina and who am I?

(01:19):
And it's just weird that now we're sort of peers
in this media entertainment industry, and sometimes I just shake
my head at the craziness of all of it. How
people are like cars in traffic, weaving in and out
and and and and here we are together today. Yeah right,
It's crazy what life throws at you. Right, And you
can never see around the bend, like you don't know

(01:42):
what's next. Well, right, and models, you know, I grew
up in the era of like the supermodel, like at
the peak era of the supermodel and Glamazon's and you know,
you weren't a person. Obviously, you were not a person.
You were just this alien beauty figure that like came
down to speak to your mortals and marry you know,

(02:03):
uh rock star, but not you know, at the superficial
attractive level that you were at. So that was like
your first mortal, normal human moment in my non having Instagram,
Twitter or anything. So now you're a person, like I've
seen that you're actually a human being. I've seen you
coast real stuff, get emotional, really share um and like

(02:25):
you're a flawed human being. So that's crazy for some
of us to realize. Now, well, uh, I'm kind of
thank you, I guess, uh, you know what it's the
that's the it's the celebrity illusion, you know. In in
in in in my book, I have an essay about

(02:47):
celebrity and about like my take on celebrity is like, like,
when you become a celebrity, it's kind of like you're
enclosed in this soap bubble with the reflective surface. And
so when people look at you, the first thing they
see themselves, you know, the reflection of themselves, So their
own assumptions about who you are. And so as a

(03:07):
people always think, well, celebrities, you know, when you're a celebrity,
everybody knows you. But in fact it's exactly the opposite.
When your celebrity, nobody knows you, right, but possibly know
you because they can't get past their own assumptions about
who you are. So, yeah, I was a paper doll
for my entire life. Does that mean that I actually
was a paper doll? But no, right, you know it's

(03:29):
too I think it actually took a tragedy to humanize me.
I think, I think oddly enough, I think that's um
you know, I think that's where people kind of got
them them all, like, oh, maybe her life is not
quite as enchanted and as amazing as it seems, and
the fact, well share. I think it was Rosie O'Donnell

(03:51):
who said something about when you when you achieve fame
and celebrity status, you don't change, but everybody around you does,
so you know, it becomes right. I mean, well you've
I mean see, you have a great point of view
here because you, as you say yourself, you didn't kind
of become a celebrity until you were actually a woman,

(04:14):
so that you could you perceived it in a different
way than I, who you know, was a famous child.
You know. So it's like I've grown up in that world,
and yes I didn't. You know, when you grow up
with it, you just think that that's the world. You
don't really necessarily, you know you cant's interesting. Well that's
really interesting because I will tell you that my personality

(04:36):
has changed as a result of it. Now I'm at
you know, I'm not j low, I'm not like people
aren't standing outside my window with cameras um. And I'm
very very introverted, which people are shocked by. Really never
go out ever unless I have to. But I used
to be someone who would talk to people in restaurants,
I think, or just you know, talk to random random people,
not all the time, and I didn't want to stay

(04:58):
in the conversation for super long. But I would go
to Starbucks in my pajamas with pimple medicine on my face.
I've never really been overlea vain um. But you find
that your body language changes a little if you're going
to be out and people are going to like, oh god,
I forgot we're out and we're at like a mall,
and that means that people are going to see me
and know that they know me and that we're going
into that now. So you do change a little bit

(05:21):
because you're just like a little bit on guard and
your posture is a little bit crouched because you're just like,
wait a second, you know. So that is so you
have developed that personality from the beginning, and who knows
how that would have been different or unpeeled it now. Interestingly,
I think it worked a little differently for me because, um,
I never knew anything else. I mean, you know, I

(05:43):
was kind of famous as a political refugee initially when
I was a child, and oh you had that was
a you were that was a public thing for you personally,
like you were known for when I arrived in Sweden
at the age of nine. After this protracted the thing
of my parents trying to get me out of the
out of Czechoslovakia. I arrived into Sweden at nine and

(06:06):
I was like, do you remember that kid Alien Gonzalez,
the Cuban refuge Yes, I was that in Sweden. So um,
I was like the face of you know, this crisis.
But yeah, cold war and you know, poor political refugee
and that doesn't make you like super popular in school.

(06:26):
Uh so I kind of that, you know, dragged along
with me through my teen years. Not not a great
time to be known as a political refugee. Oh wow,
I because I was going to ask you about the
bullying and that was a big part of it. Yeah, yeah,
that was well, that was kind of you know, at
least as far as I knew that was what the

(06:47):
bullying was based on, because I was always called you
dirty communists and go back to your country, and you know,
really intense bullying, like I had my head shoved into
a toilet and the water flash because I was told
I was dirty and that never leaves you that now,
that's that that childhood trauma. Wow. But what so did

(07:11):
you what did what were you thinking, were you particularly
glued to the television with the situation in Ukraine? Yeah,
it was, Yeah, actually it was. It was. I was
when I had actually traveled to Israel at that point
to attend my godson's wedding, and I was in the
middle of writing my book. Now I was on a

(07:31):
super time crunch because I had to finish my book
in three months. That's a very short amount of time.
So I wrote literally every single day, Saturday, Sunday, um,
all holidays. But I had to go to my godson's wedding.
It's like one of those life once in the lifetime things.
So I went to Israel. I was completely jet lagged.

(07:51):
I was sitting in my hotel room writing and when
I woke up in the morning, I that was the
headlines that I saw, and I just felt like I crumbled,
you know, and um, and then this essay just kind
of flew out of me about occupation, about the what
it feels like to be occupied by, you know, on

(08:15):
on the country level and also on an emotional level,
you know, occupation of the soul. And what's really truly
dangerous about occupation is not, you know, not that you
can't get the gene jacket that you want, or that
you can't listen to the kind of music that you want.
But it's that your soul is occupied. You know, you
get um, you get you get you're scared of everything.

(08:39):
Like you you're you put into this little shape that
you have to um kind of fit within. And that's
kind of like fame too to a certain to a
certain extent, you know, it's like being put in the box,
and and part of you almost goes, well, I'm safe
as long as I stay in the box, you know,

(09:00):
outside of it interesting, it's well. I also think about
the fact that you were nine, because I just recently
went to an event for the National Holocaust Museum and
survivors spoke, and to be at an age that you
definitely really remember process and feel like, that's a very
interesting age. I feel like the first time my daughter

(09:20):
was a person that we made decisions together about where
we were going or what we were doing, was you know,
probably eight seven eight. So you now have opinions and
you know you're you're confused. You're in between being two people,
a total child with no opinion and you know, verily
very overly decisive tweens. So I just think that the

(09:41):
age of that is very uh, it is compelling, and
I was very I am very involved in UM Ukraine relief.
So it's crazy and thank you. I I follow you
on I G two and I see all this stuff
that you too, and I just think it's so I
appreciate that. Um. So it's funny we're talking about fame

(10:13):
and we're talking about beauty, and I for some reason,
when I was reading about you, I was thinking about
Victorious Secret and Sports Illustrated and the changes in body
type and in um ethnicity and all of these different things.
And it's I'll be totally honest, because, um, sometimes it

(10:33):
feels like beauty and being a model in that whole
world of imagery is in an identity crisis. Because when
I was growing up, you heard that a model had
to be five ft seven and that was the that
was the Kate Moss exception. You know, you had to
be five ft seven, you had to weigh a certain
amount um because you had to be sort of like

(10:55):
a hangar for clothes. You know, you were just like
a canvas for clothes, and even the look. You know,
you aren't going in there with big extensions and glam
you had to be natural and be like a blank canvas.
That's the way that I saw it or read about
it in the magazines. And now and you know, I've
talked to different men that think Sports Illustrated was just
it was. It was stunning, alien like women in bathing suits.

(11:16):
And now they feel that it's not like that because
publications have to make sure to check all of these boxes.
Um and I think about models were never supposed to
be like everybody else. They weren't supposed to look like
everybody else. They were supposed to be these glamazon's. It
doesn't you know, Lebron James does not play sports like
everybody else. That's why he's Lebron James. Like, that's why

(11:37):
you're you, That's why Cindy Krawfort. It doesn't mean that
anyone should love you more or hate you more for it.
It's just what it is. Like you just had to
just were born stunning, So that's why you were a model,
and Michael Jordan was born with a gift or Picasso was,
So everything doesn't need to be that. Everybody's gets the
same exact opportunities and everything. I'm gonna disagree with you

(11:58):
in a in a in a halfways, I always want
to hear I'm curious because this is what the thoughts
that I have and I'm not allowed to say inside,
but I'm saying that. Well that that's because it's you
and thank you, just you know, saying what's on your mind. Yeah. So,
first of all, models, yes, I know like of what
you speak and that was kind of like you know

(12:20):
my generation that you know, Christie Brinkley, Sheryl takes before,
like you know, the supermodels after me. So yes, we
were supposed to. Um. First of all, the reason you
have to be tall and a very specific size is
because designers make a sample of clothing, one sample, and

(12:40):
all the girls that will photograph it in magazines have
to fit that. Right. That's what I understand why we
all had to be the same size, right. That size
size was not an option because you had to fit
that one outfit. Right. Um. Obviously, younger skin, um, I
was told, reflects light much better than older skin, and
hence all the you know, sixteen seventeen year old um

(13:04):
and uh so like and by the way, but that's
why a basketball player they should be tall. Like, we're
not mad at them for that sport because they should
be tall. It's okay. We're not like, oh, why don't
you have short people playing NBA. It's just what it is,
So go ahead, let's see that. But that's how, that's how.
That's what the fashion business was in the seventies and
the eighties. Now, mind you, before that, in the forties

(13:26):
and fifties, I believe a lot of the fashion models
were actually socialized, so they were older, they were slightly
older women. There were women in there, you know, late
twenties and thirties occasionally even forties, um, and it and
it was like elegant women modeling like the kind of
things that they would wear. So it was like that

(13:47):
W magazine look of all those wealthy New York's Okay,
got it. So it was So it's changed, you know,
it's being changed throughout the years of like the way
of showing you fashion or the way of selling you fashion.
And of course you have more fashion than ever to sell,
and we have like beauty products of the but to sell.
So it's more and more and more information. But I

(14:11):
think I also think that, um, while we were clothes
clothes hangers, and that's all fine and well. To show
you you know, the magnificent creations of like you know, Eve,
Saint Laurent whatever, um it also um it's We also
didn't represent very many women. We only you know, we

(14:33):
were clothes hangers. And and I think while we were
supposed to really only show you the fashion and make
the fashion look attractive, you know, little girls open the
fashion magazines and then sort of get the idea that
this is what they're supposed to look like. That. I
do go with you on that. I understand that's where
the interesting line is though. But not every little boy

(14:54):
looks at a professional athlete thinking that's how good they're
supposed to be. It's okay that you grew up prettier
than I am and taller than I am. I am
a good marketer. Whatever it is, like, everybody's not exactly
the same. And what with pertaining to to color of
your skin, a dent like all ethnicities should be included.

(15:14):
I'm just saying, are people Are some people allowed to
be more attractive than others? Now? Is that no? Has
that been canceled? We'll see that's or what is attractive.
I think that that's what we're battling with now, is
what is attractive because quite frankly, Bethany, if you took
this same face and there's five ft eleven body and

(15:36):
stuck me back a century, I would have been um
washing dishes somewhere, because I sure as hell wouldn't have
cut it as a beauty a required view. You really,
is that really true? Like, isn't some beauty just doesn't
some beauty just stand the test of time. I don't know.
I'm looking at you and I'm I don't know, maybe

(15:56):
square face and the high cheekbones that will see Okay,
so it's trending thing. It's a trend type thing. Well,
we do we beauty. Our perception of what is beautiful
does change with time. Okay. Committedly throughout the good makes sense.
We have had different views of what beauty was, and

(16:17):
it's usually sort of based around I guess, you know,
the economy and um, you know, sort of like what's
going on within the society. So it's like, you know,
really well, juicy women were seen as a sexual ideals
for for hundreds of years because that voted money and
wealth and indulgence and health and and good health yes,

(16:41):
fability yes, And then it wasn't until the nineteen twenties,
when um, being really thin suddenly was a thing. You know,
what you're saying to me makes perfect sense, you said.
I keep going back to you saying that it was
designed because you're just you're moving product, You're moving the clothes,
you're moving the beauty. So being a blank canvas, being
a hanger, being whatever you say. So now, I so

(17:03):
I think it boils down to marketing, and now um,
it's being It's all boils down to marketing. So now
whatever is going to sell? So if so, what if
people have you buy? It's whatever you personally, Bethany feel
like whatever, I Paulina feel like buying. That is what
you That is what's going to be pushed as the UM,

(17:24):
I guess objects of beauty. Yeah, and it's starting at
the top of the media and the magazines and the designers,
so they can shift. So I'm disagreeing with myself because
they can shift. It's still just marketing something different. So
it doesn't just because a size fourteen is now more
sexy than a size zero, it's still marketing that. It's
just marketing whatever it's it's always going to be an

(17:47):
EBB and flow. Yeah, So I just yeah, while we're
talking about that, you know, and body inclusivity as as
we're saying has you know flourished and color inclusivity fantastic.
I'm I'm all for all inclusivity because I do think that. Um.
I think as a woman, we are told so early
on that the way we look is of outmost important.

(18:11):
Even if your parents tell you, you know, you're great,
you're fantastic, you're beautiful the way you are. Don't listen
to what anybody else tells you. You live in a
society and you get these this input thrown at you
all the time that says the way you look matters.
There is something and why is it but there? Why
is it okay? For it's not okay for someone to

(18:31):
talk about someone's weight if it's heavy, but it is
okay to talk about someone's weight if they're thin. Like
there are double standards. And then some people will say
that it's great to celebrate all sizes, all shapes, but
not to be promoting unhealthy eating habits, and the pendulum
has sometimes swung because everyone's mad at anyone for being thin.

(18:52):
And I have a brand called skinny Girl. Also believe me,
I know it sure, And we've always like we made
the connection. Um, like in the old in the olden days,
being plump was healthy and then skinny was healthy. And frankly,
you really can't tell by looking at a person whether
they're healthy or not. That's it's it's not the body

(19:12):
side of determined health. That's true too. So so is
it has it been incredible pressure being on lists? Being
the top ten most beautiful, the top ten, you know,
or just being a supermodel? Is it pressure? Because then
you're out at the supermarket if if you think you
don't look good, someone's looking at you and they're seeing
the Emperor has no clothes or what is that pressure like?

(19:34):
Or do you not care? Um? I was also never
very vain and all and you know, and I come
from a background where I um. I was told I
was ugly for until I was fifteen years old. I
lived in Sweden, I was I wasn't even in high school.
I was in middle school, and I was constantly told

(19:56):
that I was ugly. Um, And I'm in one week,
I go to Paris, I wake up and all of
a sudden, I'm told I'm beautiful. I look at myself
in a mirror and I go, well, I'm looking at
exactly the same feature. So a week ago I was
ugly and the same exact face is now beautiful. So
you're saying what we just said, it's marketing. Well, beauty

(20:20):
is in the eye of the beholder, right about. It's
about other people's perception of me. And I already sort
of knew that. So, um, I you know, I was
the girl that arrived at bookings with my really thick
glasses and and and a classic book, and that was
that was a kind of a model I was. I
wasn't really into the high fashion world of it at all.

(20:41):
It was like it was a job, and I was
very grateful that I could do it and make the
money that I made. But honestly, don't give a crap
about fashion. Well, by the way, it's funny because I'm
not I'm not vain either. I saw a lot of you,
of myself and your story. Um, I'm not particularly vain.
I don't really care. I like dress nicely, not like
having a nice outfit to go to something, but I

(21:02):
don't care about to quote unquote fashion. Um and um,
were you a good business Are you a good business person?
Have you been good at the business of the business.
I suck at business, unlike you got any I'm suck
at numbers and business. And it's just I just I
like I'm you know, I'm all about you know, writing

(21:25):
and figuring out people's um emotional backgrounds and like this
is like that's that's all. This sort of interconnectedness between
emotions between people that interests me and money does not.
And never right. But you definitely have made some mistakes
in that case with this, I have. I made some

(21:46):
very I made some very obvious mistakes, um, and and
I paid for it, you know, conlustle or just the
cost of doing business. Uh. Well, So, UM, I met
my husban and when I was nineteen, and we were
married for thirty years. We were together for thirty five
three two years we were separated but still lived together.

(22:10):
And then when he died, he left behind a will
that said that I was not eligible to any of
the money of our estates because I had abandoned him,
which was a patent lie. But I, UM, I found
myself after thirty some years of living with this man

(22:31):
that I trusted with my life, um suddenly waking up
and he was dead and I couldn't ask him what
was going on, and also like no cash like I was,
like I did, I did because we were still married.
I did get these two houses that we owned, but

(22:51):
um heavily mortgaged and I had no money to pay
for anything and then came profit. So you know, wow,
But like I don't even know how someone you know,
many kids get married with that prenups that are married
for thirty years. And that's a horror story you're telling
like that. It's very common for someone to be dumb

(23:11):
and not signed a prenup, you know, you know, in
the thirties whatever, but in nineteen years old, no one's
gonna blame you for not knowing what a prenup even was.
And and like you but along the way, you never
like asked are we good? Am I good? What's the will?
Like you know not? And it never occurred to me
because this is the men that I spent my whole life.

(23:32):
Loved him, and I thought that he loved me the
same I thought we were. We were getting a divorced
because our marriage was not working. But you had a
pretty good run. It sounds like I had a really
freaking good run. And we share I mean, you know,
it's like I spent my whole wife with this guy,
so I trusted him wholeheartedly. God, it's really like this.

(23:54):
You just were like trying to mourn and hate at
the same time. It was it was, it was not.
It was not a good time. Um, but it was
obviously the darkest time of my life. But isn't that
funny though? It's funny that you say that because I
had a I was married two years. It was a
ten year to get divorced on a two year marriage.

(24:15):
Ten year and I mean probably over five million dollars
in legal like. It was gnarly. It was not a
garden variety. I mean it was insane, Yeah, brutal battle,
I mean, court appeals, it was endless, and it was
I had a very very challenging child, and I've seen
everything from abuse to hospitalization to attempts at suicide in
front of me. I've seen it all. Nothing compared to

(24:38):
this situation I'm telling you about as an adult, so
I can identify with you, probably the walls closing in
the frustration of having no control over the situation and
not being able to get the answers you want and
you'll never get them, and then having to say to
yourself every day is like just moving closer to healing.
Probably I think of it like I used to give it,

(24:58):
Like golf, Okay, I'm the first hole. Now I'll get
to the second, and then I get pulled back to
the first hole, and I don't know where. What hole
are you at now? In everything and grieving and pain
and anguish and confusion and frustration all of that. What
hole in the golf game are you? Huh? Well, see
my metaphor for this is I like your golf course.

(25:19):
I I wish I had thought of it. My metaphor
was being pushed into the ocean at at night in
the dark with a store and just trying to stay afloat,
Like you have no idea what directions you go in,
there is no light, You don't know what happened. You
don't you're not trying to win, You're trying to survive.
You are literally just in survival mode for a really

(25:40):
long time. Um. What's long? How long? Um? I would say, well,
it's been three years now, and I think I've gotten
you know, I'm like healing in certain aspects of I am. Um,
I'm I'm sort of okay with the betrayal art now
of the will thing. Because the money thing got sorted out,

(26:05):
his a state settled. I got what was due to
me under New York law, which is the third not
a half money. I did write all my money into
our joint bank accounts, and I got h wow, all
your modeling money was in the pot. Oh yeah, it
all went into the same pocket. But you know what,

(26:27):
I got some so um, and I'm I'm and I'm okay,
and I'm working again, so and you know, and so
you got over the betrayal, but I got out to
the betrayal. The grief is kind of like a It's
kind of like an thing that surges up, you know,
like you think you're okay and then it just kind
of grabs you and pulls you under for a while.

(26:49):
Grieving the death, not grieving the betrayal, grieving the actual loss. Yeah. Interesting.
I mean again, I spend my whole life with this man.
I know would be hard to imagine. Like the the
anger probably was a pretty good grief help because you're
not you know, you would have been thinking about how
different your grief would have been if you didn't have

(27:10):
the anger. I'm just curious about that because I you know,
there are people whose husbands leave them with all these
bills and kill themselves, and then they're like grieving because
the person was in so much pain, but they've left
them with this garbage dump. So it's got to be
this mixed up crazy thing that many people could listen
probably relate too. Sadly. I actually think that I, Um,

(27:30):
I was. I was a little reasonful that I didn't
just get to mourn him because I just after a while,
I was so angry, And when I wasn't angry, I
was so sad um And when I wasn't sad, I
was angry. It's like there was no there was no
there was not no magment where yeah, where like one
thing wasn't hurting, you couldn't get out wow and where

(27:52):
and so Now, so if it was a marathon or
if it was a golf game, how much out are
you now? I don't know, Bethany, I have no idea.
Um three years into it and I can say that, Look,
I I I feel like I have a purpose in
my life now. I sort of know what I'm doing. Um.

(28:13):
You know, I've written a book. Um, I am promoting
the book. I am. I have my sweet little apartment. Um,
it's a rental, but you know it's my own apartment.
Where is it? It's Um, it's in Manhattan. Oh great, Okay.
You see this beautifully well papered wall. I keep looking
at it. I'm obsessed with it. It's really cool. It's

(28:35):
stick and peel wallpapers because it's a rental, so I
couldn't really well paper. I love it. Um. But on
the other side of the wall is the very first
apartment I rented when I came to United States when
I was seventeen years old. My god, what how is
that parmy circle? That's meaningful, that's beautiful. So, yeah, you're

(28:55):
living well. You're an empty nest, right, your kids are growing,
My kids, my kids are, My kids are out. It's
just me and uh I am what a full circle? Wow? Okay,
So I mean this is going I would love to
this to be three hours, right, I have so much
time to ask you. Wait, So your kids are grown,
and how is your relationship with them as it pertains

(29:15):
to this thing you've just discussed. I'm sure you have
to compartmentalize a lot. You're not going to drag them
into everything. But they're adults, So how is the whole
dynamic with your kids. As it pertains to this. My
children are freaking amazing. They're there. I'm so I am
so proud of these two men that we've raised. And

(29:35):
that's me and my husband both. He was instrumental in
in them becoming who they are, and they are they're
gentle and they're kind and their understanding and you know,
I when I was writing my book, all of this
stuff is in my book. I didn't spare myself any
I'm keeping other people's secrets, but I'm purging mine. Um.
And so I I ran the book by them before,

(29:57):
you know, before publishing, make sure that they were okay
with everything I said. And there were a couple of
things that they said, Mom, please take this out. This
is not I don't want I don't want this in there.
So of course I did, um. But then I had
their full blessings on Yep, this is this is how
you see it, this is what happened. You just ahead, mom,
go mom, and super supportive. And for them to be

(30:22):
super supportive of their mother, who does tell the truth
about what happened, this is pretty impord in there. Because
they adore their father. I mean, he was like the
greatest dad in the world to them. Wow. Okay, well
that's good that you compartmentalize that and allow them to
have that without tarnishing that completely. Um So I remember,
obviously I've always known who you are, but really you

(30:43):
kind of piquing my interest during the pandemic when you
were really sharing and I mean, did you like really share.
I don't remember what the post was, but you were
really having a hard day and you're posting yourself the
way that you you look, um and it was raw,
to say the least. And it seems like that's this
next chapter, which is connected to this book entirely. Um.

(31:05):
I can't wait for you to tell me when you've
come out of it, because there will be a moment
where you're out, like I'm out. And it took a
long time. It took down a decade. Well it was
a decade till the thing was closed. So emotionally, emotionally,
how long did it take? No, I mean I couldn't
even start the emotional process of healing until I felt
that there was a button on it and everything the

(31:26):
money was closed, the custody was closed, the full custody
was closed, like all of that was closed, So I
would say realistically, um, maybe a couple of years, like,
but so probably I don't think you're that far from
feeling like maybe after this book does well, like there'll
be a moment where you'll just feel like wow, like

(31:47):
this button has been snapped and now I'm really like
feeling lighter. It's just they'll be an aha moment. And
it definitely hasn't happened yet because you know it and
just the pandemic saved my life because it brought everything
to the surface that had happened for all these years.
And it's when I got full custody, and it's when
you know, everything was just gone and settled. There were

(32:08):
no more things to discuss. So whenever that is for you,
and I'm sure there's a couple of little things that
haven't been finished that will be like wow, and it will.
I think I think it's all clear for me now.
I think it's been clear for me for probably about
a year now. So whatever, you know. I mean, look,
I what I fell in love with my husband when

(32:29):
I was nineteen and I found myself single. Um, when
my husband and I separated, which was before his death,
I felt very much in love with somebody, and he
left me the day I was selling my house, um
during the pandemic. So that was a little added Um,
that's the Erin's stork and of it all. No God,
No got himself in the mess by being my public boyfriend.

(32:53):
No aeron my vacation from heartbreak, bless u. Yeah, No,
he was my He was my little vacation and I
adore him for it. No, it was a different man,
but unnamed man got it. I don't care at all.
I just was. I didn't know because that he has
been public with you, so I didn't know. No, No,
this guy, this guy was not not, not for any
particular reasons, which just it was, you know, everybody everybody

(33:17):
around me knew, and my husband knew, and the kids knew,
and it's like, you know, it was, but it was.
It was not. I was not sharing that with the
world because it didn't belong out out there. It wasn't
anybody's business at that point. But I was kind of
dealing with the grief and the betrayal and then heartbreak
as well and then COVID. So when you saw me

(33:38):
sharing when I came on your radar was when I
was literally drowning Um, I was you know, i'd say suicidal,
but um, you know it sounds so like no. And
COVID crystallized everything because you're alone with your own thoughts
in your head and you know you can't release. And

(33:59):
I had never been the who that's true. I didn't think, Wow, yeah,
I know a lot of people are like experiencing health
problems now as a result of, you know, over consuming
during COVID. I mean it was for some people, you know,
it was either it was either every it either helped
them entirely or destroyed them. So I could see, so

(34:19):
you basically were what could be perceived in other worlds
or other times as over sharing, but you literally needed
to connect two people exactly because I was going to die. Wow,
I mean there was there's like, there's no no other
way to put it. I was drowning and I was
sending out little messages in the bottle saying please somebody,

(34:43):
are you? Is anybody out there? And did people help you?
And yes? And that's the that's the to me, the miracle,
and and that that that there were others so well,
there were other souls that connected to me. And how
much that that it did keep me afloat because I
kept other ones afloat. There was like, you know, these

(35:06):
people started coming to me because of me sharing my vulnerability,
and then they started hearing their vulnerabilities with me. And
and when you just know that there's somebody out there
that hears you, even just that little bit makes you
make it to the next day, that's really special and

(35:26):
a gift and kind of full circle with your book
coming out too, so you know you're on this sharing, connecting,
rebuilding journey being by yourself and your apartment. Um, you know,
I did see myself in you and that it feels
like you were alone. You weren't alone in your adult life,
but it feels like in your child life you are
alone a lot. You kind of did you raise yourself? Uh? Well, yes,

(35:52):
I raised myself, but I also raised my little brother. Okay,
so I was not so much alone. I was lonely,
but I wasn't alone. I had this three year old
that I had to take care of for, you know,
my whole childhood, which does make a difference. That's like
such a connection Like being a single mom, you just
feel like connection to your child and that was your

(36:13):
So I get that that's not being alone. No, And
then I met my husband at nineteen and he already
had four kids. So you know, I my whole I
feel like my whole life was spent um being needed
by somebody else. And now I'm learning how to not
being needed by anybody. And you know what's not it's

(36:36):
I don't love it. Oh well, you know I now
I'm thinking about the child support issue with your father,
coming full circle with this issue with Rick, which I
had the same exact child support issue as a kid.
The stories told to me were just that my father,
we hadn't seen him since he was five, and he

(36:57):
never paid child support. He was this big famous horse trainer,
and um, my relationship is very challenging also with my mother.
So I'm relating to you there. But then to come
later and have someone want to take your money that
when you were broke and never earned any For me,
that was full circle also, just like that's can't that's

(37:17):
not an accident, Like those things are just interesting. You
had that in your story, it's literally in your bio
about your father, and then you come into the situation
with someone you're supposed to trust years later, it's like
leaving another mark. Yeah, yeah, And and it's but it's
a little bit like life, like whatever fates, whatever higher powers,

(37:38):
if there are any, it's um, it's like you're here
to learn this lesson, and you and and you need
to keep having obstacles thrown in a way to learn it,
because you're not gonna learn just by coasting through life. Right,
So here's another obstacle for you. Let's see how you'll
deal with this one. Well, Ellen always said you you'll

(38:00):
keep making the same as Ellen generous, You keep making
the same mistake until you learn the lesson. She said
to me, she said a couple of things that I
jump off the page in my whole life. It's interesting, um,
but she said that to me. And also it kind
of feels like it created this new journey for you.
I mean, without what happened with Rick and your dad,
but certainly what happened with Rick, you wouldn't be sharing

(38:21):
in this way and writing this book in this way.
And so that's what I was going to say about
the Gulf, was that I was thinking, I know, there's
a reason for all this this pain, this mental pain,
and this grays, these hair falling out, this stress. There's
something about this. It will not feel like this forever,
I will be able to pay this forward and help
other people in their situations and their divorces. And I
feel like that's what's happening for you. It just seems

(38:44):
very poetic. Yeah, I think you're right. I think and
I also think like for most of my life I
had I've always had this like real desire to connect
with people. Again, it's kind of comes back to I don't.
I don't. I'm not a rate alone person. I mean,
I'm fine, and obviously I can manage, but I really

(39:05):
enjoy talking to people, connecting asking them about their lives.
Sharing that to me is like my joy in life,
right and so and and I was always I was
sort of prevented from being able to do that because
my husband was exceedingly private and he kind of hated people. Actually, um,
he was not social at all. And um, so we

(39:28):
were very small, tightly in the family. Uh. And and
then and then my celebrity sort of prevented me. And
that's the kind of celebrity I had for being a momrse.
You know, No, I mean, to be a model married
to a rock star is not exactly relatable to the
average person. To be to be, to be so that
it didn't make you vulnerable or relatable or connected. So

(39:51):
to be jilted at and alone as an empty nester
and at your at your your bottom when everyone thinks
you have a perfect life. That's related all you know,
So here we are. That's really interesting and it makes
a lot of sense, and it's so it was. Maybe
it was a gift. Maybe the pandemic was a gift
for you too, was one of those gifts that burns
down your house. Yes, so you're not immediately grateful exactly.

(40:15):
I get it. I get it, Believe me, I get it.
I still can't see my situation as a gift either.
I get what you're saying. But it definitely was a
new chapter starter. Do you do you like where you
are now? Better than at your happiest before all the
things fell apart? Well, my childhood was the race track

(40:36):
and gambling and seeing alcohol and drugs and going to
nightclubs at thirteen years old and seeing crazy abuse and
all kinds of nuts nuts things moving thirteen times. It
was it was. But so as an adult I was
a bit of an action junkie and I'm just like,
let's do that, okay, there's a crisis in Ukraine. Okay,
I could solve it. I can raise fifty million dollar,
Like I get in all the way and can handle anything.

(41:00):
So while I'm good for it, there's nothing I can't
get done, it's not great for me. So at this
stage in my life with my relationship, which is super solid, um,
it's not as chaotic. So sometimes I have to realize
that most people that are in solid, happy relationships with
their kids and with their partners are hopefully at sort

(41:24):
of a status quo, meaning it's not you know, Paul
and I aren't you know, blowing lines of cocaine and
going out to nightclubs on weekend like we we are
literally embedded nine thirty. I'm drinking a mocktail like so,
so sometimes my childhood action is going, wait, what what
do we There's no problem? What are we doing? Like
you know, and gets activated and gets activated by work.

(41:46):
But I'm at the most happy and peaceful and feelings
healthy and just like good every day and like this
is great and in a positive attitude I've ever been in.
But it's not like the crack when you first meet
someone that's wrong for you and you're like, oh my God.
You know, it's solid and peaceful and loving and the

(42:09):
excitement um yeah, I guess yeah. I think all of
us that were raised in like in those ways and
then went on to have some um you know, public
um success. You get used to those hits of adrenaline,
yes and yeah, and so when you're without them, you

(42:30):
go it's normal. It's totally peaceful, loving, healthy, normal, fun,
laughing family. It's all that. It's just not me being
in a nightclub at thirteen years old and my mother
telling me how to get a fake ID to get
into you know, the palladium with say to Howard the
guy at the door, act like you belong, you know, like,

(42:53):
it's not that. So you have to control that beast
in our lives at addiction in our lives to the
act and the getting thing. Yeah, and we get that
to work a little. Yeah, Well I got it. I
didn't actually I didn't miss it because I mean again,
I was married for such a long time and I
was like I was a mom, and I was you know,
I have grandkids, step grandkids, I have my kids. I

(43:15):
have a like this big family and houses that I
was taking care of and taking care of my husband
and taking care of everybody and feeling I guess I
was validated by people needing me, you know, to take
care of them nice. So yeah, but it's it sucks one.
It sucks now, Well you'll they'll be the next chapter.

(43:38):
That's the part that I'm figuring out now where I
feel like I've done such a tremendous amount of growing
in the last three years, like you know, like had
your bones broken and regrown like that kind of growing. Um,
and I think it's kind of made me taller. You know.
Do you want to be connected to someone again that

(44:02):
you do you want to be in a relationship? Yeah? Absolutely.
I kind of feel like being able to have a
life in which you can share. I love sharing. I
mean sharing is obviously I love sharing over sharing for
another book that's funny. Yeah, yeah, you love sharing. Yeah,

(44:23):
And so um, you know, uh, having all these wonderful
experiences which I have been having this year has been
kind of a miraculous year of so much travel and
so back to work and I'm getting my purpose and um,
you know, and I'm I'm connecting to people in a
whole different way than I was able to do earlier.

(44:44):
So I'm really like my, uh my, my career life
is just freaking awesome. Right now. I'm the happiest I've
been with what I am able to do and where
I'm doing it and who I am speaking to and
all of that. But then I come out and for
the first time in my life, I have nobody to
share it with. I don't. But that's a better box

(45:06):
to check before checking the relationship and then the career.
So I would say, at least you have the right
first box check because you're going to come into whatever
relationship with this is what's going on, this is what
I am, this is this foundation, and then that will
be additive. Sure, but also trying to I mean dating
in New York when you're fifty seven, I mean, have

(45:30):
you what's your approach? Oh, I've done every approach there
is in the book. I've gone on blind dates, I've
gone on apps, I've gone on you know, I've met
people with my my friends. You know what. What? So
with online dating, you need to be at Barney's. You
need to be at a select type of department store.
You cannot be at Macy's, like at at at Walmart.

(45:52):
For this, you do not want to be on Amazon
because it's overwhelming and you get full and then you
get just diracted. But also you have to be a
very discerning customer. You need to decide ahead of time,
write down what exactly you want, and do not settle
at all that I've I've, I've got my list, I
know what my priorities are. Okay, and I've and you

(46:15):
know they have changed radically in you know, I think, um,
it's so funny because I always thought, you know, funny, smart, sexy,
was like, you know, really important, and then I realized
that I left off probably the most important thing, which
was physically and emotionally available. Yes, and I'm sorry. You
need someone successful because otherwise it's an awkward pause in

(46:39):
every vacation, at every dinner in the room. You just
do you need someone that's let you say, I've I've
because you know, I've had so much advice on like
what sort of dating I should be doing, and people
keep saying date real guys. Date date real guys that
are just going to adore you and treasure you, and
you know they don't have to be like the blob lab.
So I I've gone out on dates with real guys. Um,

(47:04):
and um, they either talk about themselves endlessly to try
to you know, bolster there or or they can't talk
to me at all. So yeah, no, it's not it's
kind of doesn't work super well. No, it doesn't mean
you're a bad person because you're not supposed to be
dating someone that works at a drug store. It means

(47:26):
that you've accomplished a lot, and you need to be
able to have an educated conversation with someone who is
passionate and who has accomplished something and wants to accomplish more,
because that's what you want to do. You're not going
to respect someone who's sitting around on their ass. And
I've been through it, and believe me, it's the one
biggest challenge to me in any relationship is someone not
feeling like they have to prove something because I have

(47:50):
so much naturally going on every day that walks into
this door. So someone else is going to be like,
oh I did this, and this happened, and because no
one feels and then also find actually people are going
to say, well, I mean I'm not Aristotle Onassis, but
so I know you're used to this, but and you
just don't need that kind of thing, because that gets
worse so you need to be at Barney's, not Amazon Barney.

(48:15):
You need to be at Barneys even though Barney's closed.
But it's okay, okay, you need to be at the
proverbial Barney's. Um so, and then I'm gonna leave alone soon.
It's like a stalking relationship. Now, what about um plastic surgery?
Have you had it? Do you? What do you think
about it? Do you want it? For a plastic surgery? Um? There?

(48:36):
I mean, I I am always kind of I'm always
feeling like I'm sort of torn in half about like
what what what? What do I want? Who do I
believe in? What do I find attractive on other people?
I know I don't have any fillers or any botox, right,
and that's a personal choice. Never have, never have, no Wow,

(48:59):
but I did I have. I've done lasers. I'm all
for like non invasive promises that I'm going to restore
my college and to prepubscent. Not that it works really
that well, but I've you know, I I love doing
that because that makes me feel like I'm not doing anything. Really.
You know, you look stunning and you look like you
look natural, and you look like a woman. And I

(49:21):
used to always think about the way Susan Surrandon used
to look when I was young, and she looked like
she was aging beautifully. And I just did the plastic
surgery tour just so you know, So I now I'm
a semi expert on it because I've done it twice.
What do you mean tour? So I too. I will
get botox probably once or twice a year if I remember, like,

(49:41):
I'm also not vain, so I look. If I just
go like this and I'm like, oh, well, there's a
lot of lines there, then maybe I'll do it. But
I'm not religious about it. And I don't ever really
look in my face, um, except do I look rested,
Like I like that look of that freshness in the morning.
And I always have some sort of of a black
circle and even more so when I am, which is weird. Um.

(50:01):
But I one time had philler only because I had
the botox in my TMJ jaw that made it collapse
over a course of time, and so someone said filler
and I didn't like it, and I didn't do it again. Um.
I'm not up on everything. I don't read articles on this,
so I don't I've never had any of those other,
like the strings or any of the other stuff done.
I've had peels. Okay, So I someone one of my

(50:25):
friends who's a very well known celebrity said to me,
and she's vain, she and you're not, and I'm not.
So you gotta split the difference. She said, you're late,
not meeting. Go do something. Just as a part of
a conversation. Oh yeah, everyone's lying. Everyone's done it, and
you're late. And I'm fifty two and she and you're
fifty seven. So she said, you're late. Um, and everyone's

(50:47):
done something and they're all lying about it. I said, oh,
and two of my friends have done individual things that
actually bothered them. Now I don't have a specific thing
like aging. I guess would be a thing that could
boy the US or the black circles, But like, I
don't have a specific thing like the neck or whatever.
Just that line over and your smile now it's gotten longer.

(51:07):
That's annoying. In pictures, and I look back now and
I had that ten years ago. By the way, so
this isn't like I just never saw it. I look
in pictures. I just saw something yesterday on my Wikipedia
I was an old picture. I'm like wait, I keep
thinking that's an a old thing. I've had that for years.
So they had gone, and I went on to meet
the people who said the thing, the guys, the different doctors,

(51:28):
and what they do say. They all say is if
you are going to do something, like if you do
think you're going to do something, and if you're not,
then great, because I know people who haven't like you,
and you look amazing. You could run the whole thing.
I could probably tell you could let it ride. But
if you have decided that you're going to do something,
they say, between forty eight and fifty two fifty three

(51:50):
the way that your face chronologically, the age of your
face chronologically looks, And they said forty eight for me,
but that between forty eight and fifty three is an
optimal time to do it because if you're into your
you know, sixties, there's more to do, and then because
there's more that's come down, so then there's more likelihood
of a more dramatic look and change. And also that

(52:15):
if you do it in your fifties, it lasts longer
like the last fifteen years, but if you do it
in your sixties, it lasts half that time, so it
becomes more of a logical thing, not like me looking
in my face today? But am I eventually teeth too?
Same with the teeth? Are we getting on this road?
If all the doctors are saying you're getting on this
road because of erosion or t MJ, when are we

(52:37):
getting on? Like? That's the thing. So if a person
not in you, Paulina, but I'm sure you have an opinion,
If a person does think that they probably will get
on that road, then when are they entering into this journey?
And with how much? That's what I liked about the
tour was that it became not about I don't like
the way I look. It became about a logical decision.
So I liked that about it. Okay, I can I

(52:59):
can see that. Um, I have a I sort of
have a slightly different view on it. Those good let's
see well again. So here's my question to you, um
are you are you happy with the way you look
right now? Like? Do you think you are a good
yew a good version of you? I am? I I am,

(53:22):
but I don't want to be sixty two and then
I should have entered earlier. That's the thing. Yes, So
that's a conversation. What you're saying, yes, I do right now,
like the way that I mean with the you know,
I'm I'm aging, I'm a person. It's well norm The
thing like, my question is like, why do we need
to fix our faces as if they were broken with age?

(53:45):
Are they really broken because you're aging? I mean, look
at me, I've got lots of wrinkles. I'm getting slightly gelly,
which I don't love the gels, the gels in the churn. Okay,
that's what One of my friends had a real problem
with the gels and it kept getting worse. And then
she and the next thing so and she looks like
she did nothing. I like, I like, I like this.
I like the tendons. I think they're cool. I think

(54:07):
they look strong. So those I'm like, I'm embracing this.
I think they and I like them in other women too.
But I don't like the skin that hangs off, that
makes you look like you're melting. Okay that I'm not
like super into. But I like my wrinkles. I like
I like the life I've lived that's imprinted on my
face and I don't want to take that away. I

(54:30):
love that, and so I gets so the jelly things
will not. But if they were really bothering you, Like
my friend, they didn't bother until and she's you know,
gotten older, until they really bothered her. And then she
only did that one thing because it bothered her, and
you cannot tell she had anything done like this is
not clown like and that is like, that is what
If I have something done, it will be because one

(54:51):
thing bothers me a lot, and I will want to
just smooth it out so it's not so it doesn't
bother me anymore. But want to inhabit the same age
and the same face, and you know we are going
to get older, there's no around it. Do I want
to look like? Um? I do not want to look
like I'm thirty nine because it's impossible and I'm gonna

(55:12):
look weird and I don't want to be you know
when I this is like my my tagline on on
on Instagram that I do a lot of hashtag between
and Betty White. It's exactly because of this, because we
are used and this is this representation. Remember what we
were talking about, It's about representation. How much representation are

(55:34):
there of women who are fifty seven who look like
I do that have a fully you know that have
a wrinkled phase that's fully movable and that you know
hasn't had any alterations to it. There's not very many
of us, so well, I'm not very well represented. We agree, Okay,
so we do agree because I am not vain and

(55:56):
any reason. It's like sort of like I don't like
when there's a little tiny on my shirt or a stain,
but I don't mind if it's an old shirt. That's so.
So I'm saying I if that line, it just annoys me.
It doesn't have to do with being ninety nine or
twenty nine. It's just a thing um or if it
hip and a tooth, I could feel it. It drives
me nuts to chip in a tooth like in the back.

(56:17):
But it's not age related. It's not at all. So
we agree more than you think. Because I don't want
to look younger. I don't filter my pictures. I yeah,
I don't somebody that doesn't filter. I don't want to
look younger. I want to look like I do. But
if there's something like a gel or the hollow, because
I'm thin and because I my my jaw went, that's

(56:40):
the conversation I'm having. I and the doctor said, there
are people that come in here. They want the Beverly
Hills look, they want the Palm beach look. They want
to this look, they want the that look. And good
surgery is no look. And my friends that have had
it done, you cannot tell. They're almost one of them
is almost annoyed because it's like she went in and
you can't even tell, because she's lives in one of
those places where you know, they look a little doll like.

(57:02):
And if you want the doll like look, go for yours.
Do whatever you want. I love being my age. I'm
raising my hand in fifty two. I'm I love it.
So yes, I we agree more than you know all
we we you in fact agree, but I'm sort of
just I am. I'm like my The thing that's like
such a big part of this is that I feel

(57:25):
as women who I mean, first of all, we're shamed
for everything from the moment we grow up, right, we're
like shamed for the way we look and the way
we act. And we're too nice. We're not nice enough
to make too much money, too little money. You're not
a good mother, you're too much of a hovering I mean,
everything that's like just Jame James, James James Jame on you, right,
and and looks are and looks are one of the

(57:46):
things that because it can put us ahead and then
it feels like it can hold you back. And so
it looks are so important to us women, And I mean,
sure do we wish that it wasn't so, but it's
been like this for thousands of years And is it
going to go way next year? No, It's but that
for different people, I looks have done nothing. Looks do
nothing for me in my career like they for you.
They have been a currency. For me. It could almost

(58:10):
be if I filter myself and look hot and sexy
and have big giant Medusa hair and a curvy little
way like I will be trolled because it's such a sellout,
Like looks are not part of what I have put
forth in my career. But you are all about being
an authentic person like that. This is what draws me
to you is that I feel like you're telling me

(58:32):
the truth every step of the way. So if you
if you filtered your face and you're lying over in
this one specific area, I agree are from the authenticity right,
But um, I feel like there's not enough representation of
older women. There's a hole between j Lo, who is
like your age and looks like she's thirty nine and

(58:54):
totally like freaking amazing, and then Betty White, who was
snapped cract Lee and they saying, oh broad, you know,
and it's like, then you get visible visible again because
you're so adorable, you're so cute. Look, she's ninety and
she's still like full of pet But in between those
two there's like there's no representation. That's that's true. But
by the way, that's what's interesting because just like the

(59:17):
runway and different people being on it, people are deciding
to change and and and and there. I agree with you.
But if somebody wants to do something, as long as
they're honest, that that's where you get me. Like if
I decided to get a new face, if I decided
to get green eye, but I have green eyes, but
purple eyes, blue eyes, blonde hair. I'm just gonna be

(59:38):
honest about it. But please don't tell me it's yoga
and water. No, I won't, and I don't. Yeah, but
I will say that this is a stupid analogy, and
then I'll leave you alone to your life. And whoever
before um. When I first started on Housewives, I was
wearing a cable knit sweater, no makeup, doing my own
makeup in these interviews, and just being totally the real.

(01:00:00):
If you went out to an event, you went to
the TRISCHMCA boy counter bloom, he doesn't got your makeup
done on, Like we didn't have glam squads and you didn't.
You weren't putting a gown on before. You just meet
four people in a camera guy for cocktails like it wasn't.
But that's what it's come to now, and in this
industry it's hard. I couldn't just go back in the
end we still and and be in my sweatpants, like

(01:00:20):
you look weird. Denise Richards walked into a scene with
these people on Housewives and looked crazy because they were
all wearing a head to toe Gucci and the jazz
old f's on their vagina, Like so she had to
up her game a little because otherwise it would be weird.
So we have to find that balance between upping our
game a little and not not representing a fifty something
your old woman. I think that's the problem. You've got

(01:00:41):
nine out of ten people doing something and then you're
sitting here alone, the only person who's not filtered, and
you're like trying to explain. It's like wearing the pregnancy
t shirt, like I'm actually pregnant. I'm uploaded. You want
to be like, Hi, I'm not filtered, because I know
you're looking left and right and everyone looks hot and
I look like a wreck. But I just want to
know I'm not filtered, and you want the extra cookie
for it. I have to do this all the time,

(01:01:02):
like now, when I get booked for like the odd
model modeling shoot and they they and I it's in
a different country and they want me to show up
at eight o'clock in the morning. I'm like, guys, um,
I have a fifty seven year old face with a
fifty seven year old reaction to travel, and I'm looking
up at eight o'clock in the morning and I look
like crap until like three o'clock in the afternoon, you know,

(01:01:23):
the first day, so like be aware that that's what
you're gonna get, right, And it's like people don't people
don't listen or they don't pay attention. And then you
show up and they're all like, well, okay, but we're
gonna do about those arm bags. What are we gonna
do about this? Yeah, rights are really coffy, like yeah,
I mean, I told you that's like the maintenance is
different when you my age in order to yeah, you can,

(01:01:46):
I mean, but again, I really want to normalize this.
I want to normal The truth is, I'm not kidding you,
and I'm the most honest person. You know. I would
tell you you look, I really would you look. And
you've looked like a reckon some of those Instagram pictures
that you posted just like me. You look at me.
You happen to look amazing. I think because you know
you were starting you were at like a Michelin star,

(01:02:10):
like you started at such a high level that what's
deteriorated and you has gotten you down to being just
like normally beautiful, not like alien crazy beautiful. That's what
I think. I'm looking at you, and I'm telling you
right now you're stunning and in a fresh and natural beautiful.
You look amazing. I think it's because you were starting
at air Mes, so now you're maybe the affordable air Mes.

(01:02:32):
You were like the rare him Alayan birkin encrusted in diamonds,
and now maybe you're just like you know, a rare crocodile,
you know, with with with palladium hardware. Like maybe you're
not the I think that's what the problem is. Like
you started at such a high level that you just
got knocked down on hap at such a high level,
with zero self awareness, with a rebellious attitude and smooth skin,

(01:02:58):
And I wasn't picking off the person that I'm not,
not even a quarter of the person that I am now,
the level of patience and intelligence and insight and humor
and everything else that I've got going on inside. Um,
I had none of that. And that's when I was
in my prime. And I'm like, no, no, I'm in
my prime now, Yes what prime? In this woman looks

(01:03:21):
like it looks older. I love it. I think it's amazing,
I really do. And you had such hardship as a child,
and then modeling came easy to you, and then you
had another bump and had hard hard ship after your marriage.
You're on a roller coaster. That's beautiful. And I really
like where you are now too, And I'm so happy
to know you now, Like you know you're gonna tell

(01:03:43):
you I'm gonna get that wallpaper and put it somewhere
just to remember you and and yeah, you're my favorite
aramaz bag. Well m kind of wrinkled, yes, just like
you know, I'm saying that's yeah. Anyway, you're wonderful inside
and out is the most important. And I'm so happy
to have met you again, to your beth Any and ditto,

(01:04:04):
and I like, I love everything we do again. It's
like the honesty, the authenticity and the putting out the
good out into the world. You know, thank you. That's
if we all could do a little bit more of that,
we would well would be a better place. I'm ranting

(01:04:35):
and raving and between all these podcasts and I don't
get to talk to interesting people and hear their stories.
And wow, Pauline and I had a great conversation. And
I love when you know it's not just like a
yes everything you say is perfect and yes everything I
say is perfect. It's just an interesting conversation back and forth. Um,
two women in their fifties who have been through a
lot of craziness. And I loved it. She's so interesting

(01:04:58):
and really beautiful inside and out. What a wonderful conversation.
I'm really better for that