May 25, 2023 • 39 mins
Katie interviews Dr. Jody Thomas, the founder of the Meg Foundation. The two discuss how the nonprofit empowers families with pain management strategies to prevent and reduce pain in children.
Jody first explains how the Meg Foundation was created. She then elaborates on the three types of pain that children experience, and how parents can best support children in what specific type of pain they may be going through.
Finally, what information should parents arm themselves with the next time their child needs to go to the doctor? Tune in for answers!
Executive Producers: Sandie Bailey, Alex Alcheh, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang & Gabrielle Collins
Producer & Editor: Casby Bias
Associate Producer: Akiya McKnight
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Parents will often say to me, out of the incredibly
great intentions, I just don't mention this and that they're
going to have to get Usually it's shots, right, number
one question?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Child?
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Do I have to get a shot?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Oh? Yeah, he asked me. Last night. My son was
up last night with an earache. I think he slept.
He's got one big floppy year and I think he
slept on it like folded. He's like, I have an
ear infection. I was like, well, if you wake up
and there's inner ear pain, we'll definitely have to get
that checked down. He's like, oh, I have to get
a shot. I was like, no, they will have to
just look in your ear. But yeah. So most people's mode,
(00:38):
which is mine too, is we're just not going to
mention the shot until we get there. Hello, everybody, Welcome
back to Katie's Crib. Every MoMA out here listening knows
how shitty it is to take your kid to the
(01:01):
pediatrician and give them shots. I don't know. It's so traumatizing,
and I find it to be rare that there's like
a few mom friends I have whose kids are not
affected by it, and this woman who we have on
as a guest today. It's not only about helping kids
get through just the yearly shots and vaccinations. This amazing
(01:26):
doctor Jody Thomas is dealing in this whole arena that
I didn't even know existed. It's about helping kids with
medical anxiety. How not to get freaked out, how to
manage pain for children during annual visits to the doctor,
let alone more chronic and really complicated illnesses and things
(01:47):
that kids have to go through. How to handle pokes
with needles, broken bones, which y'all I just went through
Albe just broke his arm, surgeries, and like I said,
chronic and lingering pain. Doctor Jody Thomas is a license
clinical Psychologists and specialist and pediatric medical Illness and Trauma.
She has twenty plus years of experience working with children, families,
(02:08):
and adults dealing with medical illness and trauma, depression, and anxiety.
Jody is the founder and executive director of the Meg Foundation,
which is an organization dedicated to giving kids, parents and
caregivers science backed superpowers to help manage the pain experience
and fend off any freak out monsters in the process.
(02:29):
This is so usually helpful this topic today, Jody, I
am so stoked you're here. Welcome to Katie's crib. First
and foremost, I love everything you are doing. I didn't. Sadly,
I'm probably like all the people you work with, where
(02:50):
it is not known that there are options now to
help our kids with pain management, from as small as
their annual checkups to more complicated illnesses and chronics, diseases
and stuff. First and foremost, can you tell us about
the Meg Foundation, what it is and how you started it?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
The Meg Foundation is the nonprofit that I run that
is dedicated to empowering kids and families around pain and
medical anxiety. So I'm a clinical psychologist. I've been doing
this for twenty five years now.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Just you look good.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Thank you so much wow for that.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
And really what it was about was knowing that the
practice of pain management is about thirty to forty years
behind the research, which is just crazy. And as I
tell people, you don't need me, you need what I know.
We need to be able to kind of use technology
and design to make sure that parents have what they
need to be able to protect their kid and protect
(03:52):
their families because it's a lot more than a difficult
five minutes at the doctor's office.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
It's that they never want to go oh, and it's like, oh,
my goodness, if we just figured out a way to
manage the pain and the anxiety, then maybe they it
wouldn't be so traumatic every time there's a checkup or
a sickness or a common cold like anything like that.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Exactly, or it becomes I'm sure we all know that
adult that we worry about that quote unquote doesn't do doctors,
and they don't do doctors because of that preventable stuff
that happened when they were four years old, and they
become people like my own brother in law who dies
of stage four cancer because he waits six months to
get a blood test because he scared of needles. And
(04:38):
I wish that story was unusual, and it's just.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Not five men right now that I know, and one
family member of mine the same. He had a lump
terrified of doctors. You never ever went to doctors. He
died of a cancer that was very treatable.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I'm so sorry sorry to hear that, and I know
that happened, so we knew that happened every day, and
so that really became that mission of I tell people
is tired of playing cleanup, and we need to play prevention.
And so really lucky to have these amazing experts from
all over the world and we come together and find
a really cool and creative ways to get these tools
(05:20):
into the hands of people win and where they need them.
My turning point came when my daughter was in the
nick You for twenty seven days and I found myself
on the other side. I've been in Nicky's my entire career.
Turns out really not so fun on the other side
of that deal, right, not surprising, but like our pain
management for premies, what I had to fight for her
(05:41):
to get, knowing that poor pain management then causes depression, anxiety,
chronic pain for her the rest of her life. When
we're not we're damaging those not yet fully cooked neurological systems.
And as I looked around that nick You, knowing that
literally these other moms cared for their babies as much
(06:03):
as I desperately loved mine, I just happened to know
what I should be fighting for, that there was something
to fight for and how to fight for.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
It that there's options which we'll get into, but we
don't even know that, like, oh, there's like topical numbing
cream that can help with IVS or help with needles
and things like that. Where's the name Meg come from?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Meg comes from a dear friend and colleague of mine
who was the one who pushed me to start the
foundation because I've been honestly complaining about this for years,
Like I was running the Stanford pain and rehab program
at the time. We were talking about all this, and
when I moved from the Bay Area to Denver and
(06:47):
imploded life and resettling things, she turned to me and said,
so are you going to do what you're supposed to do?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Are you going to get too busy again?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
What a great event?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Right?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
So Meg had this amazing ability to call you out
in very helpful, productive and loving ways. And so as
we were going through the process of starting the foundation,
and she was actually going through cancer treatment at that time,
we were desperately trying to find a name and couldn't
find anything that fits, and we had just found out
(07:21):
that her treatment it failed and she wasn't going to survive.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
And I was like, you know, I think it's just
supposed to be the meg Foundation. I think this is
what we're supposed to do.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
What a enlightened just a big life moment where it
all just goes me exactly. Can you tell us what
are the three types of pain? There is procedural, acute,
and chronic. Can you explain that first?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
So, Procedural pain is what typically is almost.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
All of our first experiences with pain.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
This is needles, This is even blood pressure cuffs and
things like that. So the discomfort that's associated with any
sort of medical procedure, So you can tell why this
is often the source of where we see the seeds
of medical anxiety happen. And then there's acute pain, which
is just our most straightforward it's injury, broken bones, broken bones, surgery,
(08:16):
stepped on a lego.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Like I sure all of that, Sure, a beasting.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
A beasting, all of that. And then chronic pain is
by definition, pain that lasts more than six months. But
really what we're talking about is that pain that sticks
around much longer than it should. And one of the
really big misconceptions. I ran the chronic pain program at
the rehab program at Stanford, and everyone would always say
(08:41):
to me, like, kids don't have chronic pain. I'm like,
actually they do. So this is what people are really
blown away by. But when we put in headaches, stomach aches,
body pain, all of those things, one in four kids
will have chronic pain, and a lot of them have
that even more frequently, and we see that with more distress. So,
(09:01):
like the rates of chronic pain in everyone, including children,
totally skyrocketed during the pandemic, which wasn't surprising. Chronic stress, procedural, acute.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
And chronic.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It's a biological, psychological, and social experience.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
That's not weird.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
It's not odd. It is how it is all the time.
So when people say, oh, it's all in your head,
which is used to dismiss pain, technically speaking, they're right
because we do create a pain experience in our head,
but not in a way that means you're crazy. Like
my ultimate example, all the time, as they said, look,
have you ever noticed that hurts a lot worse to
(09:37):
stub your toe when you're in a bad mood than
when you're in a good mood.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Totally, So now.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
It's extrapolate that to what it's like to get a
medical procedure or you're in an urgent care. You are
with your kid who broke an arm or you're in
chronic pain, that those aspects of the psychological and the
physical and the social part of that experience are a
huge but somehow we just don't really like talk about that,
(10:04):
even though we have, like again, decades of research.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Do this okay? So for the parents listening whose kids
fly off the handle for the procedural pain management, what
information should we best arm ourselves with the next doctor's appointment?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Parents will often say to me, out of the incredibly
great intentions, which as a mom of two I totally get,
is I just don't mention this and that they're gonna
have to get Usually it's shots, right, number one question?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Child? Do I have to get a shot? Oh?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, he asked me. Last night. My son was up
last night with an earache. I think he slept He's
got one big floppy ear and I think he slept
on it like folded. He's like, I have a ear infection.
I was like, well, if you wake up and there's
inner ear pain, we'll definitely have to get that checked down.
He's like, oh, I have to get a shot, And
I was like, no, they will have to just look
in your ear. But yeah. So most people's mode, which
(10:59):
is mine too, is we're just not going to mention
the shot until we get there.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yes, So when I say that, I said, okay, cool,
So let's think about this for a sec. Picture, you're
like your biggest work meeting you've ever had, only no
one tells you what's going to happen until two minutes.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So that's a fucking bad idea. Why are we right, Well,
because we don't want to deal.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Actually, here's the deal. We don't know how to deal,
and that's really your issue. We think about stress as
a general concept. It is the difference between what we
perceive is the needs of the situation and our ability
to meet the needs of that situation. I don't know
what the hell to do anyway, Like why am.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
I going to bring it up?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
But we have to remember that just like with that
big work meeting, it's not that you're not going to
feel anxious, it's what you're going to do prepare to
cope and deal with that anxiety. And that's really where
we have to go with our kids. Parents will say
I don't want my kid to feel anxious. I'm like,
that's not the way humans work.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
That's welcome to life, too, Welcome to life.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yes, it's like our biggest school in general with our
kids is to help them figure out how to tolery, uncertainty, discomfort,
and anxiety. And it's very much that model and say, look,
we're going to prepare so like with your son, he
says that last night and again, lucky, we don't have
a shot. We're just gonna have to look at the
air and check it out.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
It's to say, well, you know what, Bud, we don't,
but if we do, remember we have all of our plan,
we have our coping skills, we know what we're gonna
do to make that poke be totally fine and okay.
So it's about preparing kids and preparing ourselves because not shocking.
The largest predictor of the kid's distress is the parent's distress.
(12:34):
And it's opening because moms will turn out to me
and said, cool, you're saying it's my fault. I'm like, no,
I'm saying, congratulations. You have a good attachment to your child, right,
you care, you care a lot, you care, and they
care about you and they pick up on you. That's
called good attachment. Nice work.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So you think a few days in advance. We say, hey, Bud,
we have your annual checkup coming up. There's going to
be a poke. It's going to be one second. I
get them all the time, And let's talk about how
we can best support you. Do you want to bring
U stuff? Like what are the options?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yes, So we do a couple of things.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
One you're pointing out really the importance of language, right,
so you'll hear you or poke because shot is immediately like,
there's an automatic response. People have the word shot, needle.
And so when we use your like poke or we're
gonna put some medicine in your arm, or we're gonna
put your medicine in your leg. And even when we
talk about kids, how we frame it right. So what
(13:29):
I'll said to my kids, I'm like, look, we get
to go get some magic medicine at the doctor.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
It's going to help you stay healthy.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
That's great. Never phrased it that way, right.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
That we get to go do this, which sounds very different.
And again not to sugarcoat, everyone's like, we are you lying.
I'm like, no, no, believe me. I am all about
being super honest with children.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
But it also is a privilege, like you're phrasing it
in the way like we're getting magic medicine from years
of studying so that you don't get measles and you
don't get I mean, I wouldn't say this to him,
but I'm understanding you might.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Actually kids want to know.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
You're like, this is actually super cool.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Check this out.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
There is a medicine that used to be kids would
get really sick. So your child's at the best, at
the perfect age for this because he has a great
use of language, right, he can understand. He's super interested
in learning and figuring things out. And you're like, Okay,
this is the coolest. We're going to talk about some
ways that those pokes don't even need to bother you.
Let's make a game plan and let's figure out what
(14:29):
you want to do, because remember that choice is power.
Like they don't have a choice to get a poke.
You know, if we've decided as parents that this is
important and healthy, but they we can do a lot
of choices, and kids love choice and power. Right, this
what helps it? Right, we know this if it's putting
on your shoes.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Going to bed, it's like, how many of you get
two books and one song? It's like, yes, God, and
which book do you want?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
And so as long as you get to choose the book,
then we've given you a sense of power and control
over but you're still going.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
To bed dude, right, right.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
But when we have power control and we get to practice,
be like, hey, you know what I learned some really
cool ways for you to sit. Do you want to
stall on my lap? Do you want to sit this way?
Do you want to sit straddling me? And that's what
we have all these guides to how to do that
because one of the biggest mistakes that we will see
repeated on repeat is holding kids down for pokes and procedures.
(15:21):
It is quite literally a recipe for medical trauma and
it happens all the time. And there's a lot of
reasons for that. But if I am going to empower
moms and parents to do one thing, it is never
let someone hold your kid down for a medical procedure
unless you plan on finding and paying someone like me
later to take care of that.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
That's that's that's a therapy. So really we should be
putting them on our lap, holding them in a hug.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yes, And there are ways to do that. Because you'll
hear pushback from providers sometime be like, well, I have
to keep them safe. This is the only way to
keep them safe. And that's definitely the knowledge that they
were given, but it's also the research would well establish
it that's not true. You can use your arms and
your body to help keep their body still enough to
get the pope safely, but they are comforted by your
(16:12):
physical presence. You know that same feeling. We love that
hug that we get. It's releasing oxytocin and all sorts
of beautiful things. We get to slow down our own breathing,
and your kid will unconsciously follow that. And you're sitting
there talking with them, right You're like, hey, Bud, I'm
right here. All good, We're going to be done in
(16:32):
a sec. I've got you excellent, nice work. You're being
so brave.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
This is so cool. Check it out where we're going
to go get ice cream? After all? Oh, we're already done.
That's awesome. What flavor ice.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Cream are we going to get? We do our mom
instinct or parent instinct. You know how to comfort your kid.
You do it all the time. But somehow often we
walk into that doctor's office and we feel like we're
not allowed to do that and we are, and so
comfort positioning and practice saying that at home, be like,
check this out. This is how we're going to do it.
Do you want to practice on your stuffy? Why don't
(17:04):
you show me on your teddy bear how you're going
to do this. Medical play is fantastic, and you remember
that kids. We work out our stuff through talking. Kids
work their stuff out through play, and when they can
sit there and play, they get a greater sense of control.
And you're both walking in there knowing what you want
to do. You're like, great, should we do numbing cream.
Let's get numbing cream and explaining to kids what that does.
(17:27):
We put this on your skin and you don't even
have to feel the poke.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Why is numbing cream not offered? I don't understand.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Oh, believe me.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
It's spent decades struggling with this. It is absolutely it's
the best practice recommendation for every major medical and pain
organization in the world. It's absolutely the best practice and
no one does it. So it is a number one thing,
and it is when the powers it be that sort
of run the medical world at this point, when they
were in medical school in like the seventies and eighties,
(18:00):
they were quite literally taught that kid's pain didn't matter.
If I had had to open heart surgery.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
As an infant and I'm forty eight years.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Old, they would have paralyzed but not anesthetized me.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Oh my god, are you kidding.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
I'm not kidding.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
So the belief at that point was the anesthesia was
really dangerous and which is insane we know now, and
the mortality rate was crazy because we literally wouldn't anesthetize
these babies. I'm like, yeah, what, Yes, they were literally taught,
and they were taught especially for babies. When we know
(18:38):
that those little infants, two things are happening. One, you're
traumatizing the parent and that carries over to those neck shots.
But two, we're damaging that not yet fully cooked neurological
system and we are creating more pain. Later on, the
thought was like, well, if they can't remember it, it
doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, then it's not going to matter. That's not true.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
No, at one hundred percent matters, and that matters a lot,
and so being able to manage it from the beginning
is this incredible gift.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Do you recommend parents like bringing their own numbing cream.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
One hundred percent. Like you can always call and be like, Hi,
do you do this? If I had to place some
money on the bet, they'd be like, no, ever do that.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
It's not a big deal.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
It's fine, and you're like all evidence to the contrary. Actually,
but it's really easy to get over the counter LIGHTI
king cream. You can now get a light on.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Go. Yeah, it's really not that hard.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
One of my best friend's sons is going through like
a lot of testing and things like that and has
had like multiple MRIs and spinal taps and and Andrew
Grahams and a lot of things like that, And honestly,
the worst part is him getting the IV. It's he's
(19:59):
a very active boy. So he's screaming doing backbends and
she's holding him and they're trying to get this thing
in place. And I don't understand it because my son
was put out for nine cavities. Yep, yeah, so funny.
He had nine cavities in four and a half. And
don't worry. We have a whole episode of Katie's Crib
(20:20):
with awesome dentists. I've learned a lot since that rodeo,
but it was so great because what they did in
the dentist's office was they actually put him out with
a mask thing EF mask first and then the IV.
So my son had no idea what that was happening.
And then his school even went so far is his
(20:43):
school has very progressive nursery school, but they have all
of these doctor kids, and when someone has a procedure
coming up, they spend weeks leading up doing play with
the mask that was going to go on his face,
so that when the mask was put on his face,
it was not the first time. He's not not vera. No,
he had been playing that at school for a while,
(21:04):
but he had already practiced with the mask and had
played a lot. But he was put out and also
not woken up until the IV was out. So I
don't understand why this is going on.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Okay, So I just want to break down a few
of what your school and what you guys did so
brilliantly with that. That is one of the number one
things that I tell parents to ask for. I'm like,
if we're gonna do being gassed, do it first so
we don't have to go through the entire IV process.
There are ways we can prepare them for that, no problem.
But why if we don't have to have do and
(21:38):
let's do the mask and to practice with the mask,
because the amount of mask phobia that I've treated, because remember,
we're going in, we're uncertain and we're scared, and what
your school did gorgeously is prepare him where this is
what's going to happen. This is what's going to happen next,
we're gonna put this thing and it's the coolest. You
(21:59):
just breathe and all sending to go to sleep.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
We take powers and he was asleep in ten seconds.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, And so like your friend, that story is the
reason we started the foundation because we know that those
first times when she was going through that terrifying process
of diagnosis and when those first things happened, whatever that was,
it's we're getting all these procedures and because everyone is
scared and terrified, now all of that is associated, right,
(22:27):
So that IV just isn't about that IV. It's about
everything that was happening the first time he got that IV,
and how scared everybody was and how everyone felt that
need to hold what's down and to restrict and so
there's so much associated with that. And just let you
know there are ways to undo that. But this is
a cleanup situation.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Again, so you're spending all of your time cleaning up. Yes,
is making small changes that we could change it from
the jump.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
From the moment we start, and that's what we want
to be to do. But when we go in and
we can help, okay, great, we're going to do this
process and proteachure. So distraction is one of the most
powerful things. Like every single one of us as a parent.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Pro level distractors all day.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
But it's like you're like trying to get your kids
attention when they're staring at that video or super into
the game. An entire brass band could be going through
the room and they don't notice, right, And if we
can take that thing, that's so annoying when you're trying
to get them to put on their shoes and get
out the door. But it's unbelievably powerful when it comes
to sitting there and that focus of attention, they truly
(23:35):
aren't hearing you.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So is that like a you put on a show
while they're getting it? Is that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Like this nurser doctor is really good at their job.
They're going to take care of it, but it's not
that fun. To pay attention to that. Let's figure out
what you want to pay attention to to help you
feel safe and calm. So do you want to watch
a show? And then the more specific we get, do
you want to watch Bluee? Do you want to watch
Peppa Pig? Great, let's make sure we have that download
to the phone and that it's ready and that remember
(24:03):
that it's the build up that's problematic. So we get
to sit here and while we spend most of our
lives trying to get kids off of our.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Screens, Yeah, this is when we need it.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, when we're sitting in the waiting room of the
doctor's office or waiting for that, we're like, great, let's
watch Bluey and remember, Okay, we got our plan, you
got your numbing cream. On vibration, there's an amazing device
called the buzzy Bee that's really great for that. Vibration
is so fantastic. It's literally just vibrates, Okay, Like it's
just vibration and you put it on the skin. So basically, again,
(24:36):
pain happens in our brain when we're using vibration. You're
just putting this vibrating thing on our skin and it
creates this traffic jam of signals on your neurological system.
So simply that pain signal doesn't get through.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
That's a great idea. Geez, we should be doing that
for shots too. Yeah, how do we support our kids?
Let's move on to the next one with the pain,
which is like the be staying and the broken bone.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So you've ever seen like a toddler fall like face
plant and then they look at you. They're looking at
you to be like, how am I supposed to feel
about this? And am I safe?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
And okay?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
So that difference that are we harm are we in danger?
So one is being able to remember that pain in
itself is a warning signal. It's telling us something is
wrong or may be wrong, and that we should check
it out. So if we step on a beat and
it hurts good, we should know that there's a bee
stinger in there.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Thing. So it's broken arm.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
You're like, how cool is it that your body knew
how to keep you safe and tell us that your
bone is broken. So now it can tell us that
so when we go to the doctor and we get
it fixed, so we know that we have to do
to keep your body safe and okay. But here's the
cool part. We know that now, so we don't need
that signal anymore. So let's figure out what we want
to do to turn that signal down right and okay, cool?
(25:56):
And also it's even tricks, like when we break the
arm is to rub the body, like if we break
our wrist, then rubbing up at the shoulder. Remember that
signal has to go from our wrist and travel up our.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Arm into our brain.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
And so one of those things is rubbing that spot
in between where the trauma is and your brain. You
are creating alternate sensation. Also when we do and that's
similar like when we're holding our hand or when we're
doing that is to say, hey, don't you notice how
it feels you feel how warm my hand is? Do
you feel me rubbing you? When we focus our attention,
(26:31):
our focus of attention is one of the most important
components to our pain experience. And so in every person
who's ever sat there and at the end of the
day you got a bruise and you have no idea
where it came from. This happens to your kids all
the time. You have one example, the kids, you're like,
I don't even know where that came from. Now some
tell it's I'm like, look, you were having so much
fun and you were so focused on something else that
(26:52):
you didn't even notice that your body got damaged enough
to get a bruise. And that's because your body was
safe and okay, and your brain knew that and you
were like, yeah, we don't need to we're paying attention
to this. So do you think if your brother or
sister came up and hit you hard enough to get
a bruise, would would that hurt?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yes? Yes, stop stop.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Everything, we go to everything, we go to hell right, Yeah,
but it's the same tissue damage, right, That biological piece
is one hundred percent the same. It is our focus
of attention and the meaning we've assigned to it that
totally changes it.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
And in that.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Moment when your kid gets that steps on the bee,
breaks the arm, is you get to be that person
defining it. You're like, oh my goodness, you know what.
You're right, but that is a big one. We're gonna
have to go to the dock and get that checked
out to make sure your body is safe and okay, cool,
let's figure out the ways you can help yourself feel
better and calm.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Why we do that?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So let's rub, we can watch a video, we can
do those things. But your common response because that anxiety
is are we safe and okay? And the truth is
even if they break an arm, you're gonna go the doctor.
It's not gonna be a good time. But they're generally
safe and no, okay, right, You're like, we've got a
course of action.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
You're gonna be cool.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Absolutely, And also that whole idea of turning it into
that curiosity and adventure, like, Okay, this is awesome because.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
You're probably loved a cast more than an entire world,
like the color watching it go on, It wasn't something
to all, But.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
It becomes scary if we are acting scared and instead
being like, Okay, this is amazing, dude, check it out.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
We get to pick a color.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
He was scared when he was like, how are they
when they get it off? Is it a saw this,
that and the other thing? And so I was, you
know what, but I'm going to do some research and
show you some videos of kids getting their cast off.
And I found some videos of kids like hysterical laughing
because it like tickled.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
It tickles, and like the vibration actually ticked.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, and they showed a guy actually using the machine
and like putting it on bare skin and how it
did nothing, and then my son was totally fine.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Okay, so brilliant, And Lana lakes one, I want to
point out again highlight a couple of amazing things you
did there. One, when we do not know the answer,
it is a perfect and good thing to say, you
know what, dude, I don't know, let me check that out.
But I know it's gonna be saying okay, let me
get back to you. And we do have to circle back.
But when we're thrown off by an answer that we
don't know, it is really good to be like, you
(29:15):
know what, I really want to answer that. Let me
look into it and I'm going to get back to you.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
So that is a great strategy. We don't have to
answer every scary, big question immediately. And the second was
it's about expectation. If you guys both came in in
a couple days before you practice, you got your game plan,
you got your thing. And then when their anxiety starts
to peak and you're like, you know what, bad, I know,
no one loves it. Remember we got our game plan.
This is going to be awesome. You're going to get
(29:41):
to prove to yourself how we can make this no
big deal. You and I we're in this together.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
We got this.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
How do we best support our kids in the more
chronic pain? I don't think I've faced that yet, yasol.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
So, chronic pain is tough because it really a lot
of it. First of all, you have to establish hurt
versus harm. So when things are hurting, is there something
actually wrong? Like when a arm breaks. An arm is broken,
we know there's a bone, we know there's a problem.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
We know it's kind of get fixed.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
With chronic pain, like chronic abdominal pain and chronic headaches,
we do want to go to our doc. We do
want to get that general work up. Is there anything
going on that needs attention, that needs something to happen.
Is there some sort of intervention that's going to need
to occur? Is this telling us something important? Is the
original intent of pain happening? Like it's a warning? The
(30:36):
problem is a lot of the warning's just we're done
and we don't need it anymore, And why are we
still dealing the signal itself? That pain itself becomes the
problem rather than it actually.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Signaling something that's wrong.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
But even when we're talking about something like Crohn's disease
or IBS or chronic abdominal pain, those are obviously very physical,
real things. Like we're not saying that psychological interventions mean
the pain isn't real. Well, it's one hundred percent real.
All pain is real, but these things are going to
be the ways that you're going to feel better. So
it also means not giving into the pain all the time,
(31:12):
and that is a really difficult thing as a parent.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
So if your kid has.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
The flu, sticking them on the couch, letting them watch
endless TV and bringing them soup is a great plan.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
It's finite.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
It's exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
It is finite when we're talking about chronk abdominal pain
or chronic pain. At some point when we determine this
is going on and it's going to keep on going
on that when we're doing that, we're actually prolonging that
experience because instead of being able to say, you know,
when kids would say to me, well it hurts when
(31:45):
I'm at school, I'm like, does it hurt at home?
And I'm like yes, I'm like them, we're going to school.
Because the truth is that functioning is going to come
back before pain relief because your body has had an
idea that I have to stop functioning and wait for
the pain to go away. But with most chronic pain,
(32:05):
it's not gonna go away until we start functioning.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
And again, like your broken arm, if it still hurts,
do not throw the ball or do not do things right.
But your brain and your body have learned a lesson
that there's something dangerous and you should stop, even when
that is wholly untrue. And so to do that, we
have to do that thing over and over again. Be like,
(32:29):
hey body, we're actually cool, we're actually fine.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
And okay.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
The truth is as much as you can physiologically and
psychologically put that pain.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Down, calm yourself.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
So with kids with chronic pain, we have to teach
them really amazing coping skills, yoga, meditation, realizing, going on
a walk around the block calms our body, learning breathing
techniques and strategies, Learning that waiting a really long time
to eat until we're starving is not a good idea.
That we need to learn to drink enough water, that
(33:02):
going to bed at the same time every night, even
though that's rough, it's going to be game changing and
your ability to manage, and that's not and again and
none of that makes pain your fault or anything you did.
Your body is requiring something so much higher level.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, it's like all this self care stuff that I
wish I had implemented from the time I was little.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Wow, this is so amazing, I wanted to say, everyone listening.
The meg Foundation your website. What I also loved about
it is that you can literally enter in your kid's age,
because so much of how we support our kids through
each kind of pain actually changes with their age and
the language we use and what's developmentally appropriate. So you
(33:47):
can literally enter your kid's age in the website and
it will change, because I'm sure it changes from a
three year old to a fourteen year.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Old absolutely, So it directs to you. Then we want
you to be able to find the things you need
as quickly as possible, and so based on the type
of pain and based on the age of your child
being able to like, these are the resources that would
be great for you.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Love it. I feel so lucky, Like I have no
needle fear or trauma at all. I think it's like
kind of like, yeah, fuck you, let's go like, I've
got this, Like I know this isn't a big deal.
(34:30):
My husband is like a mouse, Like he's just terrified.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
And I'm guessing he's not a mouse in other areas.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
No, But I feel so lucky that I don't have
any negative feelings about it, and so I feel it
would be such a gift to try to give my
kids the same gift because I've been able to walk
through my life like I am not afraid of doctors.
I'm not afraid of like how they're going to help me,
Like I don't have a negative connotation around it.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
And you've lived through it.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yes, you've created that reality through that expectation and that belief,
and that's really what we want to do for our kids,
for our kids. And again you're like, and I'm guessing
your husband's a good example of that too, Like in
every other area of life.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Let's make the next generation of children who are not
having any needle fear.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
And understanding pain because that is also associated to addiction.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Oh, I'm sure, chronic.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Pain, use of oipioids, all of this. There's so many
negative outcomes that we get to avoid by understanding pain
and how it works. In our body and the power
and control we can have over it.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
The other thing that I.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Want to point out that's really important is that what
we say after is instrumentally important. There's unbelievably really cool
research and we actually have a video on the website
called Framing the Story that talks about this that what
we say after is unbelievably important for forming their memory
memory of that and their expectations going forward that it
(35:59):
will dick take how they will feel. And one of
the things I love to do is a video the
kids right after there and I'm like, hey, that was awesome,
such a good job. What do you want to say
to your future self the next time we get a poke?
Speaker 3 (36:10):
What helped? What was good? What was awesome?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
And they're like, okay, I really liked sucking on all
of pop and watching the video and that was cool,
and like was it a big deal or no big deal?
And they're like, no big deal. And so the next
time that comes and there starts to be that anxiety,
You're like, hey, cool, let's check it yourself. Look what
you said to yourself next time?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
WHOA, That's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Right when we're asking that question, we are forming that
for them, and even by the way, if it did
not go as well, so you have to be prepared
to pull the plug. If we're at mock ten and
we're holding it down, I'm like, you know what, unless
someone is bleeding out, we don't actually need to get.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
This done today.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
And instead we're turning around being like, you know, I'm
so proud of you. You went in that room and
you got the plan and we got there. That was awesome.
And next time we get to go even a little
bit further. But nice work. That was great. Good job
not kicking the doctor this time, your body safe, whatever
that was, you stayed in the room. I'm so proud
of you that we are reinforcing when we are highlighting
(37:08):
what went well and positive and how we can build
on that in the future.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
It is game.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Changing because we'd had parents come to me we worked
on a plan and they're like, well it just went
terribly and I'm like, okay, talk to me.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
What happened.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
They're like, we went in, we had a plan, everyone
was calm, but right before the poke when they really
freaked out and started yelling, and I'm like, that's actually incredible,
Like they made it that far. They made it in
and we got it in and you did it and
I'm looking at that, I'm like, I'm so proud of you.
That's incredible.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
My god, Jody, the work you're doing is invaluable, and
I know you are climbing a massive mountain of cultural
norms that are very hard to shift. But your work
is seen, and I hope all of the mamas and
caretakers listening to this podcast will use and check out
the website. Please, what is your How old are your kids?
Speaker 3 (38:00):
My kids are nine and eleven.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Does anybody have a birthday coming up?
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yes? My daughter here?
Speaker 1 (38:05):
What advice would you give to your kid on their
upcoming birthday?
Speaker 3 (38:10):
On their upcoming birthday at are brilliant.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
So with my nine year old, who is a little
people pleaser, my advice to her always and will definitely
be advice to ten year old self is it's okay
to make people mad.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yes, I wish I would have told me that, because
I got a big people pleaser inside my soul is right.
Love that and then I always ask our amazing guests
to finish this sentence. Parenthood is so hard.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
So hard, It's so hard, and that's why we all
have to come together and have podcasts like Katie's Crib
so that we have a village together to help us
all have the resources.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
And the knowledge and the information to make it easier,
especially trips to the Doctor. Thank you, Doctor Jodi Thomas
for coming on Katie's Crib. This was an incredible episode.
I learned a ton.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.
I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.
Let me know. You can always find me at Katiescrib
at Shondaland dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of
Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
(39:30):
you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Parents will often say to me, out of the incredibly
great intentions, I just don't mention this and that they're
going to have to get Usually it's shots, right, number
one question?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Child?
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Do I have to get a shot?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Oh? Yeah, he asked me. Last night. My son was
up last night with an earache. I think he slept.
He's got one big floppy year and I think he
slept on it like folded. He's like, I have an
ear infection. I was like, well, if you wake up
and there's inner ear pain, we'll definitely have to get
that checked down. He's like, oh, I have to get
a shot. I was like, no, they will have to
just look in your ear. But yeah. So most people's mode,
(00:38):
which is mine too, is we're just not going to
mention the shot until we get there. Hello, everybody, Welcome
back to Katie's Crib. Every MoMA out here listening knows
how shitty it is to take your kid to the
(01:01):
pediatrician and give them shots. I don't know. It's so traumatizing,
and I find it to be rare that there's like
a few mom friends I have whose kids are not
affected by it, and this woman who we have on
as a guest today. It's not only about helping kids
get through just the yearly shots and vaccinations. This amazing
(01:26):
doctor Jody Thomas is dealing in this whole arena that
I didn't even know existed. It's about helping kids with
medical anxiety. How not to get freaked out, how to
manage pain for children during annual visits to the doctor,
let alone more chronic and really complicated illnesses and things
(01:47):
that kids have to go through. How to handle pokes
with needles, broken bones, which y'all I just went through
Albe just broke his arm, surgeries, and like I said,
chronic and lingering pain. Doctor Jody Thomas is a license
clinical Psychologists and specialist and pediatric medical Illness and Trauma.
She has twenty plus years of experience working with children, families,
(02:08):
and adults dealing with medical illness and trauma, depression, and anxiety.
Jody is the founder and executive director of the Meg Foundation,
which is an organization dedicated to giving kids, parents and
caregivers science backed superpowers to help manage the pain experience
and fend off any freak out monsters in the process.
(02:29):
This is so usually helpful this topic today, Jody, I
am so stoked you're here. Welcome to Katie's crib. First
and foremost, I love everything you are doing. I didn't. Sadly,
I'm probably like all the people you work with, where
(02:50):
it is not known that there are options now to
help our kids with pain management, from as small as
their annual checkups to more complicated illnesses and chronics, diseases
and stuff. First and foremost, can you tell us about
the Meg Foundation, what it is and how you started it?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
The Meg Foundation is the nonprofit that I run that
is dedicated to empowering kids and families around pain and
medical anxiety. So I'm a clinical psychologist. I've been doing
this for twenty five years now.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Just you look good.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Thank you so much wow for that.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
And really what it was about was knowing that the
practice of pain management is about thirty to forty years
behind the research, which is just crazy. And as I
tell people, you don't need me, you need what I know.
We need to be able to kind of use technology
and design to make sure that parents have what they
need to be able to protect their kid and protect
(03:52):
their families because it's a lot more than a difficult
five minutes at the doctor's office.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
It's that they never want to go oh, and it's like, oh,
my goodness, if we just figured out a way to
manage the pain and the anxiety, then maybe they it
wouldn't be so traumatic every time there's a checkup or
a sickness or a common cold like anything like that.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Exactly, or it becomes I'm sure we all know that
adult that we worry about that quote unquote doesn't do doctors,
and they don't do doctors because of that preventable stuff
that happened when they were four years old, and they
become people like my own brother in law who dies
of stage four cancer because he waits six months to
get a blood test because he scared of needles. And
(04:38):
I wish that story was unusual, and it's just.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Not five men right now that I know, and one
family member of mine the same. He had a lump
terrified of doctors. You never ever went to doctors. He
died of a cancer that was very treatable.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I'm so sorry sorry to hear that, and I know
that happened, so we knew that happened every day, and
so that really became that mission of I tell people
is tired of playing cleanup, and we need to play prevention.
And so really lucky to have these amazing experts from
all over the world and we come together and find
a really cool and creative ways to get these tools
(05:20):
into the hands of people win and where they need them.
My turning point came when my daughter was in the
nick You for twenty seven days and I found myself
on the other side. I've been in Nicky's my entire career.
Turns out really not so fun on the other side
of that deal, right, not surprising, but like our pain
management for premies, what I had to fight for her
(05:41):
to get, knowing that poor pain management then causes depression, anxiety,
chronic pain for her the rest of her life. When
we're not we're damaging those not yet fully cooked neurological systems.
And as I looked around that nick You, knowing that
literally these other moms cared for their babies as much
(06:03):
as I desperately loved mine, I just happened to know
what I should be fighting for, that there was something
to fight for and how to fight for.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
It that there's options which we'll get into, but we
don't even know that, like, oh, there's like topical numbing
cream that can help with IVS or help with needles
and things like that. Where's the name Meg come from?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Meg comes from a dear friend and colleague of mine
who was the one who pushed me to start the
foundation because I've been honestly complaining about this for years,
Like I was running the Stanford pain and rehab program
at the time. We were talking about all this, and
when I moved from the Bay Area to Denver and
(06:47):
imploded life and resettling things, she turned to me and said,
so are you going to do what you're supposed to do?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Are you going to get too busy again?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
What a great event?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Right?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
So Meg had this amazing ability to call you out
in very helpful, productive and loving ways. And so as
we were going through the process of starting the foundation,
and she was actually going through cancer treatment at that time,
we were desperately trying to find a name and couldn't
find anything that fits, and we had just found out
(07:21):
that her treatment it failed and she wasn't going to survive.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
And I was like, you know, I think it's just
supposed to be the meg Foundation. I think this is
what we're supposed to do.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
What a enlightened just a big life moment where it
all just goes me exactly. Can you tell us what
are the three types of pain? There is procedural, acute,
and chronic. Can you explain that first?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
So, Procedural pain is what typically is almost.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
All of our first experiences with pain.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
This is needles, This is even blood pressure cuffs and
things like that. So the discomfort that's associated with any
sort of medical procedure, So you can tell why this
is often the source of where we see the seeds
of medical anxiety happen. And then there's acute pain, which
is just our most straightforward it's injury, broken bones, broken bones, surgery,
(08:16):
stepped on a lego.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Like I sure all of that, Sure, a beasting.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
A beasting, all of that. And then chronic pain is
by definition, pain that lasts more than six months. But
really what we're talking about is that pain that sticks
around much longer than it should. And one of the
really big misconceptions. I ran the chronic pain program at
the rehab program at Stanford, and everyone would always say
(08:41):
to me, like, kids don't have chronic pain. I'm like,
actually they do. So this is what people are really
blown away by. But when we put in headaches, stomach aches,
body pain, all of those things, one in four kids
will have chronic pain, and a lot of them have
that even more frequently, and we see that with more distress. So,
(09:01):
like the rates of chronic pain in everyone, including children,
totally skyrocketed during the pandemic, which wasn't surprising. Chronic stress, procedural, acute.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
And chronic.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It's a biological, psychological, and social experience.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
That's not weird.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
It's not odd. It is how it is all the time.
So when people say, oh, it's all in your head,
which is used to dismiss pain, technically speaking, they're right
because we do create a pain experience in our head,
but not in a way that means you're crazy. Like
my ultimate example, all the time, as they said, look,
have you ever noticed that hurts a lot worse to
(09:37):
stub your toe when you're in a bad mood than
when you're in a good mood.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Totally, So now.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
It's extrapolate that to what it's like to get a
medical procedure or you're in an urgent care. You are
with your kid who broke an arm or you're in
chronic pain, that those aspects of the psychological and the
physical and the social part of that experience are a
huge but somehow we just don't really like talk about that,
(10:04):
even though we have, like again, decades of research.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Do this okay? So for the parents listening whose kids
fly off the handle for the procedural pain management, what
information should we best arm ourselves with the next doctor's appointment?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Parents will often say to me, out of the incredibly
great intentions, which as a mom of two I totally get,
is I just don't mention this and that they're gonna
have to get Usually it's shots, right, number one question?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Child? Do I have to get a shot? Oh?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, he asked me. Last night. My son was up
last night with an earache. I think he slept He's
got one big floppy ear and I think he slept
on it like folded. He's like, I have a ear infection.
I was like, well, if you wake up and there's
inner ear pain, we'll definitely have to get that checked down.
He's like, oh, I have to get a shot, And
I was like, no, they will have to just look
in your ear. But yeah. So most people's mode, which
(10:59):
is mine too, is we're just not going to mention
the shot until we get there.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yes, So when I say that, I said, okay, cool,
So let's think about this for a sec. Picture, you're
like your biggest work meeting you've ever had, only no
one tells you what's going to happen until two minutes.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So that's a fucking bad idea. Why are we right, Well,
because we don't want to deal.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Actually, here's the deal. We don't know how to deal,
and that's really your issue. We think about stress as
a general concept. It is the difference between what we
perceive is the needs of the situation and our ability
to meet the needs of that situation. I don't know
what the hell to do anyway, Like why am.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
I going to bring it up?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
But we have to remember that just like with that
big work meeting, it's not that you're not going to
feel anxious, it's what you're going to do prepare to
cope and deal with that anxiety. And that's really where
we have to go with our kids. Parents will say
I don't want my kid to feel anxious. I'm like,
that's not the way humans work.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
That's welcome to life, too, Welcome to life.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yes, it's like our biggest school in general with our
kids is to help them figure out how to tolery, uncertainty, discomfort,
and anxiety. And it's very much that model and say, look,
we're going to prepare so like with your son, he
says that last night and again, lucky, we don't have
a shot. We're just gonna have to look at the
air and check it out.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
It's to say, well, you know what, Bud, we don't,
but if we do, remember we have all of our plan,
we have our coping skills, we know what we're gonna
do to make that poke be totally fine and okay.
So it's about preparing kids and preparing ourselves because not shocking.
The largest predictor of the kid's distress is the parent's distress.
(12:34):
And it's opening because moms will turn out to me
and said, cool, you're saying it's my fault. I'm like, no,
I'm saying, congratulations. You have a good attachment to your child, right,
you care, you care a lot, you care, and they
care about you and they pick up on you. That's
called good attachment. Nice work.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So you think a few days in advance. We say, hey, Bud,
we have your annual checkup coming up. There's going to
be a poke. It's going to be one second. I
get them all the time, And let's talk about how
we can best support you. Do you want to bring
U stuff? Like what are the options?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yes, So we do a couple of things.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
One you're pointing out really the importance of language, right,
so you'll hear you or poke because shot is immediately like,
there's an automatic response. People have the word shot, needle.
And so when we use your like poke or we're
gonna put some medicine in your arm, or we're gonna
put your medicine in your leg. And even when we
talk about kids, how we frame it right. So what
(13:29):
I'll said to my kids, I'm like, look, we get
to go get some magic medicine at the doctor.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
It's going to help you stay healthy.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
That's great. Never phrased it that way, right.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
That we get to go do this, which sounds very different.
And again not to sugarcoat, everyone's like, we are you lying.
I'm like, no, no, believe me. I am all about
being super honest with children.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
But it also is a privilege, like you're phrasing it
in the way like we're getting magic medicine from years
of studying so that you don't get measles and you
don't get I mean, I wouldn't say this to him,
but I'm understanding you might.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Actually kids want to know.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
You're like, this is actually super cool.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Check this out.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
There is a medicine that used to be kids would
get really sick. So your child's at the best, at
the perfect age for this because he has a great
use of language, right, he can understand. He's super interested
in learning and figuring things out. And you're like, Okay,
this is the coolest. We're going to talk about some
ways that those pokes don't even need to bother you.
Let's make a game plan and let's figure out what
(14:29):
you want to do, because remember that choice is power.
Like they don't have a choice to get a poke.
You know, if we've decided as parents that this is
important and healthy, but they we can do a lot
of choices, and kids love choice and power. Right, this
what helps it? Right, we know this if it's putting
on your shoes.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Going to bed, it's like, how many of you get
two books and one song? It's like, yes, God, and
which book do you want?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
And so as long as you get to choose the book,
then we've given you a sense of power and control
over but you're still going.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
To bed dude, right, right.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
But when we have power control and we get to practice,
be like, hey, you know what I learned some really
cool ways for you to sit. Do you want to
stall on my lap? Do you want to sit this way?
Do you want to sit straddling me? And that's what
we have all these guides to how to do that
because one of the biggest mistakes that we will see
repeated on repeat is holding kids down for pokes and procedures.
(15:21):
It is quite literally a recipe for medical trauma and
it happens all the time. And there's a lot of
reasons for that. But if I am going to empower
moms and parents to do one thing, it is never
let someone hold your kid down for a medical procedure
unless you plan on finding and paying someone like me
later to take care of that.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
That's that's that's a therapy. So really we should be
putting them on our lap, holding them in a hug.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yes, And there are ways to do that. Because you'll
hear pushback from providers sometime be like, well, I have
to keep them safe. This is the only way to
keep them safe. And that's definitely the knowledge that they
were given, but it's also the research would well establish
it that's not true. You can use your arms and
your body to help keep their body still enough to
get the pope safely, but they are comforted by your
(16:12):
physical presence. You know that same feeling. We love that
hug that we get. It's releasing oxytocin and all sorts
of beautiful things. We get to slow down our own breathing,
and your kid will unconsciously follow that. And you're sitting
there talking with them, right You're like, hey, Bud, I'm
right here. All good, We're going to be done in
(16:32):
a sec. I've got you excellent, nice work. You're being
so brave.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
This is so cool. Check it out where we're going
to go get ice cream? After all? Oh, we're already done.
That's awesome. What flavor ice.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Cream are we going to get? We do our mom
instinct or parent instinct. You know how to comfort your kid.
You do it all the time. But somehow often we
walk into that doctor's office and we feel like we're
not allowed to do that and we are, and so
comfort positioning and practice saying that at home, be like,
check this out. This is how we're going to do it.
Do you want to practice on your stuffy? Why don't
(17:04):
you show me on your teddy bear how you're going
to do this. Medical play is fantastic, and you remember
that kids. We work out our stuff through talking. Kids
work their stuff out through play, and when they can
sit there and play, they get a greater sense of control.
And you're both walking in there knowing what you want
to do. You're like, great, should we do numbing cream.
Let's get numbing cream and explaining to kids what that does.
(17:27):
We put this on your skin and you don't even
have to feel the poke.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Why is numbing cream not offered? I don't understand.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Oh, believe me.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
It's spent decades struggling with this. It is absolutely it's
the best practice recommendation for every major medical and pain
organization in the world. It's absolutely the best practice and
no one does it. So it is a number one thing,
and it is when the powers it be that sort
of run the medical world at this point, when they
were in medical school in like the seventies and eighties,
(18:00):
they were quite literally taught that kid's pain didn't matter.
If I had had to open heart surgery.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
As an infant and I'm forty eight years.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Old, they would have paralyzed but not anesthetized me.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Oh my god, are you kidding.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
I'm not kidding.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
So the belief at that point was the anesthesia was
really dangerous and which is insane we know now, and
the mortality rate was crazy because we literally wouldn't anesthetize
these babies. I'm like, yeah, what, Yes, they were literally taught,
and they were taught especially for babies. When we know
(18:38):
that those little infants, two things are happening. One, you're
traumatizing the parent and that carries over to those neck shots.
But two, we're damaging that not yet fully cooked neurological
system and we are creating more pain. Later on, the
thought was like, well, if they can't remember it, it
doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, then it's not going to matter. That's not true.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
No, at one hundred percent matters, and that matters a lot,
and so being able to manage it from the beginning
is this incredible gift.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Do you recommend parents like bringing their own numbing cream.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
One hundred percent. Like you can always call and be like, Hi,
do you do this? If I had to place some
money on the bet, they'd be like, no, ever do that.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
It's not a big deal.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
It's fine, and you're like all evidence to the contrary. Actually,
but it's really easy to get over the counter LIGHTI
king cream. You can now get a light on.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Go. Yeah, it's really not that hard.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
One of my best friend's sons is going through like
a lot of testing and things like that and has
had like multiple MRIs and spinal taps and and Andrew
Grahams and a lot of things like that, And honestly,
the worst part is him getting the IV. It's he's
(19:59):
a very active boy. So he's screaming doing backbends and
she's holding him and they're trying to get this thing
in place. And I don't understand it because my son
was put out for nine cavities. Yep, yeah, so funny.
He had nine cavities in four and a half. And
don't worry. We have a whole episode of Katie's Crib
(20:20):
with awesome dentists. I've learned a lot since that rodeo,
but it was so great because what they did in
the dentist's office was they actually put him out with
a mask thing EF mask first and then the IV.
So my son had no idea what that was happening.
And then his school even went so far is his
(20:43):
school has very progressive nursery school, but they have all
of these doctor kids, and when someone has a procedure
coming up, they spend weeks leading up doing play with
the mask that was going to go on his face,
so that when the mask was put on his face,
it was not the first time. He's not not vera. No,
he had been playing that at school for a while,
(21:04):
but he had already practiced with the mask and had
played a lot. But he was put out and also
not woken up until the IV was out. So I
don't understand why this is going on.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Okay, So I just want to break down a few
of what your school and what you guys did so
brilliantly with that. That is one of the number one
things that I tell parents to ask for. I'm like,
if we're gonna do being gassed, do it first so
we don't have to go through the entire IV process.
There are ways we can prepare them for that, no problem.
But why if we don't have to have do and
(21:38):
let's do the mask and to practice with the mask,
because the amount of mask phobia that I've treated, because remember,
we're going in, we're uncertain and we're scared, and what
your school did gorgeously is prepare him where this is
what's going to happen. This is what's going to happen next,
we're gonna put this thing and it's the coolest. You
(21:59):
just breathe and all sending to go to sleep.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
We take powers and he was asleep in ten seconds.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, And so like your friend, that story is the
reason we started the foundation because we know that those
first times when she was going through that terrifying process
of diagnosis and when those first things happened, whatever that was,
it's we're getting all these procedures and because everyone is
scared and terrified, now all of that is associated, right,
(22:27):
So that IV just isn't about that IV. It's about
everything that was happening the first time he got that IV,
and how scared everybody was and how everyone felt that
need to hold what's down and to restrict and so
there's so much associated with that. And just let you
know there are ways to undo that. But this is
a cleanup situation.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Again, so you're spending all of your time cleaning up. Yes,
is making small changes that we could change it from
the jump.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
From the moment we start, and that's what we want
to be to do. But when we go in and
we can help, okay, great, we're going to do this
process and proteachure. So distraction is one of the most
powerful things. Like every single one of us as a parent.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Pro level distractors all day.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
But it's like you're like trying to get your kids
attention when they're staring at that video or super into
the game. An entire brass band could be going through
the room and they don't notice, right, And if we
can take that thing, that's so annoying when you're trying
to get them to put on their shoes and get
out the door. But it's unbelievably powerful when it comes
to sitting there and that focus of attention, they truly
(23:35):
aren't hearing you.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So is that like a you put on a show
while they're getting it? Is that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Like this nurser doctor is really good at their job.
They're going to take care of it, but it's not
that fun. To pay attention to that. Let's figure out
what you want to pay attention to to help you
feel safe and calm. So do you want to watch
a show? And then the more specific we get, do
you want to watch Bluee? Do you want to watch
Peppa Pig? Great, let's make sure we have that download
to the phone and that it's ready and that remember
(24:03):
that it's the build up that's problematic. So we get
to sit here and while we spend most of our
lives trying to get kids off of our.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Screens, Yeah, this is when we need it.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, when we're sitting in the waiting room of the
doctor's office or waiting for that, we're like, great, let's
watch Bluey and remember, Okay, we got our plan, you
got your numbing cream. On vibration, there's an amazing device
called the buzzy Bee that's really great for that. Vibration
is so fantastic. It's literally just vibrates, Okay, Like it's
just vibration and you put it on the skin. So basically, again,
(24:36):
pain happens in our brain when we're using vibration. You're
just putting this vibrating thing on our skin and it
creates this traffic jam of signals on your neurological system.
So simply that pain signal doesn't get through.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
That's a great idea. Geez, we should be doing that
for shots too. Yeah, how do we support our kids?
Let's move on to the next one with the pain,
which is like the be staying and the broken bone.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So you've ever seen like a toddler fall like face
plant and then they look at you. They're looking at
you to be like, how am I supposed to feel
about this? And am I safe?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
And okay?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
So that difference that are we harm are we in danger?
So one is being able to remember that pain in
itself is a warning signal. It's telling us something is
wrong or may be wrong, and that we should check
it out. So if we step on a beat and
it hurts good, we should know that there's a bee
stinger in there.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Thing. So it's broken arm.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
You're like, how cool is it that your body knew
how to keep you safe and tell us that your
bone is broken. So now it can tell us that
so when we go to the doctor and we get
it fixed, so we know that we have to do
to keep your body safe and okay. But here's the
cool part. We know that now, so we don't need
that signal anymore. So let's figure out what we want
to do to turn that signal down right and okay, cool?
(25:56):
And also it's even tricks, like when we break the
arm is to rub the body, like if we break
our wrist, then rubbing up at the shoulder. Remember that
signal has to go from our wrist and travel up our.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Arm into our brain.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
And so one of those things is rubbing that spot
in between where the trauma is and your brain. You
are creating alternate sensation. Also when we do and that's
similar like when we're holding our hand or when we're
doing that is to say, hey, don't you notice how
it feels you feel how warm my hand is? Do
you feel me rubbing you? When we focus our attention,
(26:31):
our focus of attention is one of the most important
components to our pain experience. And so in every person
who's ever sat there and at the end of the
day you got a bruise and you have no idea
where it came from. This happens to your kids all
the time. You have one example, the kids, you're like,
I don't even know where that came from. Now some
tell it's I'm like, look, you were having so much
fun and you were so focused on something else that
(26:52):
you didn't even notice that your body got damaged enough
to get a bruise. And that's because your body was
safe and okay, and your brain knew that and you
were like, yeah, we don't need to we're paying attention
to this. So do you think if your brother or
sister came up and hit you hard enough to get
a bruise, would would that hurt?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yes? Yes, stop stop.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Everything, we go to everything, we go to hell right, Yeah,
but it's the same tissue damage, right, That biological piece
is one hundred percent the same. It is our focus
of attention and the meaning we've assigned to it that
totally changes it.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
And in that.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Moment when your kid gets that steps on the bee,
breaks the arm, is you get to be that person
defining it. You're like, oh my goodness, you know what.
You're right, but that is a big one. We're gonna
have to go to the dock and get that checked
out to make sure your body is safe and okay, cool,
let's figure out the ways you can help yourself feel
better and calm.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Why we do that?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So let's rub, we can watch a video, we can
do those things. But your common response because that anxiety
is are we safe and okay? And the truth is
even if they break an arm, you're gonna go the doctor.
It's not gonna be a good time. But they're generally
safe and no, okay, right, You're like, we've got a
course of action.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
You're gonna be cool.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Absolutely, And also that whole idea of turning it into
that curiosity and adventure, like, Okay, this is awesome because.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
You're probably loved a cast more than an entire world,
like the color watching it go on, It wasn't something
to all, But.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
It becomes scary if we are acting scared and instead
being like, Okay, this is amazing, dude, check it out.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
We get to pick a color.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
He was scared when he was like, how are they
when they get it off? Is it a saw this,
that and the other thing? And so I was, you
know what, but I'm going to do some research and
show you some videos of kids getting their cast off.
And I found some videos of kids like hysterical laughing
because it like tickled.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
It tickles, and like the vibration actually ticked.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, and they showed a guy actually using the machine
and like putting it on bare skin and how it
did nothing, and then my son was totally fine.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Okay, so brilliant, And Lana lakes one, I want to
point out again highlight a couple of amazing things you
did there. One, when we do not know the answer,
it is a perfect and good thing to say, you
know what, dude, I don't know, let me check that out.
But I know it's gonna be saying okay, let me
get back to you. And we do have to circle back.
But when we're thrown off by an answer that we
don't know, it is really good to be like, you
(29:15):
know what, I really want to answer that. Let me
look into it and I'm going to get back to you.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
So that is a great strategy. We don't have to
answer every scary, big question immediately. And the second was
it's about expectation. If you guys both came in in
a couple days before you practice, you got your game plan,
you got your thing. And then when their anxiety starts
to peak and you're like, you know what, bad, I know,
no one loves it. Remember we got our game plan.
This is going to be awesome. You're going to get
(29:41):
to prove to yourself how we can make this no
big deal. You and I we're in this together.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
We got this.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
How do we best support our kids in the more
chronic pain? I don't think I've faced that yet, yasol.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
So, chronic pain is tough because it really a lot
of it. First of all, you have to establish hurt
versus harm. So when things are hurting, is there something
actually wrong? Like when a arm breaks. An arm is broken,
we know there's a bone, we know there's a problem.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
We know it's kind of get fixed.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
With chronic pain, like chronic abdominal pain and chronic headaches,
we do want to go to our doc. We do
want to get that general work up. Is there anything
going on that needs attention, that needs something to happen.
Is there some sort of intervention that's going to need
to occur? Is this telling us something important? Is the
original intent of pain happening? Like it's a warning? The
(30:36):
problem is a lot of the warning's just we're done
and we don't need it anymore, And why are we
still dealing the signal itself? That pain itself becomes the
problem rather than it actually.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Signaling something that's wrong.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
But even when we're talking about something like Crohn's disease
or IBS or chronic abdominal pain, those are obviously very physical,
real things. Like we're not saying that psychological interventions mean
the pain isn't real. Well, it's one hundred percent real.
All pain is real, but these things are going to
be the ways that you're going to feel better. So
it also means not giving into the pain all the time,
(31:12):
and that is a really difficult thing as a parent.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
So if your kid has.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
The flu, sticking them on the couch, letting them watch
endless TV and bringing them soup is a great plan.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
It's finite.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
It's exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
It is finite when we're talking about chronk abdominal pain
or chronic pain. At some point when we determine this
is going on and it's going to keep on going
on that when we're doing that, we're actually prolonging that
experience because instead of being able to say, you know,
when kids would say to me, well it hurts when
(31:45):
I'm at school, I'm like, does it hurt at home?
And I'm like yes, I'm like them, we're going to school.
Because the truth is that functioning is going to come
back before pain relief because your body has had an
idea that I have to stop functioning and wait for
the pain to go away. But with most chronic pain,
(32:05):
it's not gonna go away until we start functioning.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
And again, like your broken arm, if it still hurts,
do not throw the ball or do not do things right.
But your brain and your body have learned a lesson
that there's something dangerous and you should stop, even when
that is wholly untrue. And so to do that, we
have to do that thing over and over again. Be like,
(32:29):
hey body, we're actually cool, we're actually fine.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
And okay.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
The truth is as much as you can physiologically and
psychologically put that pain.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Down, calm yourself.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
So with kids with chronic pain, we have to teach
them really amazing coping skills, yoga, meditation, realizing, going on
a walk around the block calms our body, learning breathing
techniques and strategies, Learning that waiting a really long time
to eat until we're starving is not a good idea.
That we need to learn to drink enough water, that
(33:02):
going to bed at the same time every night, even
though that's rough, it's going to be game changing and
your ability to manage, and that's not and again and
none of that makes pain your fault or anything you did.
Your body is requiring something so much higher level.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, it's like all this self care stuff that I
wish I had implemented from the time I was little.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Wow, this is so amazing, I wanted to say, everyone listening.
The meg Foundation your website. What I also loved about
it is that you can literally enter in your kid's age,
because so much of how we support our kids through
each kind of pain actually changes with their age and
the language we use and what's developmentally appropriate. So you
(33:47):
can literally enter your kid's age in the website and
it will change, because I'm sure it changes from a
three year old to a fourteen year.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Old absolutely, So it directs to you. Then we want
you to be able to find the things you need
as quickly as possible, and so based on the type
of pain and based on the age of your child
being able to like, these are the resources that would
be great for you.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Love it. I feel so lucky, Like I have no
needle fear or trauma at all. I think it's like
kind of like, yeah, fuck you, let's go like, I've
got this, Like I know this isn't a big deal.
(34:30):
My husband is like a mouse, Like he's just terrified.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
And I'm guessing he's not a mouse in other areas.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
No, But I feel so lucky that I don't have
any negative feelings about it, and so I feel it
would be such a gift to try to give my
kids the same gift because I've been able to walk
through my life like I am not afraid of doctors.
I'm not afraid of like how they're going to help me,
Like I don't have a negative connotation around it.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
And you've lived through it.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yes, you've created that reality through that expectation and that belief,
and that's really what we want to do for our kids,
for our kids. And again you're like, and I'm guessing
your husband's a good example of that too, Like in
every other area of life.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Let's make the next generation of children who are not
having any needle fear.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
And understanding pain because that is also associated to addiction.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Oh, I'm sure, chronic.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Pain, use of oipioids, all of this. There's so many
negative outcomes that we get to avoid by understanding pain
and how it works. In our body and the power
and control we can have over it.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
The other thing that I.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Want to point out that's really important is that what
we say after is instrumentally important. There's unbelievably really cool
research and we actually have a video on the website
called Framing the Story that talks about this that what
we say after is unbelievably important for forming their memory
memory of that and their expectations going forward that it
(35:59):
will dick take how they will feel. And one of
the things I love to do is a video the
kids right after there and I'm like, hey, that was awesome,
such a good job. What do you want to say
to your future self the next time we get a poke?
Speaker 3 (36:10):
What helped? What was good? What was awesome?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
And they're like, okay, I really liked sucking on all
of pop and watching the video and that was cool,
and like was it a big deal or no big deal?
And they're like, no big deal. And so the next
time that comes and there starts to be that anxiety,
You're like, hey, cool, let's check it yourself. Look what
you said to yourself next time?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
WHOA, That's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Right when we're asking that question, we are forming that
for them, and even by the way, if it did
not go as well, so you have to be prepared
to pull the plug. If we're at mock ten and
we're holding it down, I'm like, you know what, unless
someone is bleeding out, we don't actually need to get.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
This done today.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
And instead we're turning around being like, you know, I'm
so proud of you. You went in that room and
you got the plan and we got there. That was awesome.
And next time we get to go even a little
bit further. But nice work. That was great. Good job
not kicking the doctor this time, your body safe, whatever
that was, you stayed in the room. I'm so proud
of you that we are reinforcing when we are highlighting
(37:08):
what went well and positive and how we can build
on that in the future.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
It is game.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Changing because we'd had parents come to me we worked
on a plan and they're like, well it just went
terribly and I'm like, okay, talk to me.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
What happened.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
They're like, we went in, we had a plan, everyone
was calm, but right before the poke when they really
freaked out and started yelling, and I'm like, that's actually incredible,
Like they made it that far. They made it in
and we got it in and you did it and
I'm looking at that, I'm like, I'm so proud of you.
That's incredible.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
My god, Jody, the work you're doing is invaluable, and
I know you are climbing a massive mountain of cultural
norms that are very hard to shift. But your work
is seen, and I hope all of the mamas and
caretakers listening to this podcast will use and check out
the website. Please, what is your How old are your kids?
Speaker 3 (38:00):
My kids are nine and eleven.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Does anybody have a birthday coming up?
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yes? My daughter here?
Speaker 1 (38:05):
What advice would you give to your kid on their
upcoming birthday?
Speaker 3 (38:10):
On their upcoming birthday at are brilliant.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
So with my nine year old, who is a little
people pleaser, my advice to her always and will definitely
be advice to ten year old self is it's okay
to make people mad.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yes, I wish I would have told me that, because
I got a big people pleaser inside my soul is right.
Love that and then I always ask our amazing guests
to finish this sentence. Parenthood is so hard.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
So hard, It's so hard, and that's why we all
have to come together and have podcasts like Katie's Crib
so that we have a village together to help us
all have the resources.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
And the knowledge and the information to make it easier,
especially trips to the Doctor. Thank you, Doctor Jodi Thomas
for coming on Katie's Crib. This was an incredible episode.
I learned a ton.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.
I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.
Let me know. You can always find me at Katiescrib
at Shondaland dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of
Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
(39:30):
you listen to your favorite shows.
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