August 10, 2023 • 50 mins
This week’s Katie’s Crib episode is dedicated to topics surrounding early childhood development - featuring child development specialist, Carol Provost! Join us as we dig into Carol's 40+ years of knowledge as a parent support expert.
We first explore how Carol found her passion for helping children learn and grow over the years. She then sheds light on understanding such things as handling tantrums and time outs appropriately. Carol also stresses how we can take a non-judgmental approach and help kids embrace their unique qualities (e.g., being shy, spirited, high sensory).
Plus, why should we be careful when it comes to making narrative for our kids? Carol explains all: tune in for the answer!
Executive Producers: Sandie Bailey, Alex Alcheh, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang & Gabrielle Collins
Producer & Editor: Casby Bias
Associate Producer: Akiya McKnight
NOTE: This episode was recorded on May 26, 2023.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. What's the best preschool tip that you've given?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The tip that I would give people most raising preschool
kids is keep a twinkle in your heart. Keep a
sense of humor. These stages will pass. They're okay, You're okay. Smile,
it's okay.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
If that isn't a tip for life, I don't know
what is. Hello, everybody, Welcome back to Katie's Crib. I
have been trying to get today's guest on for a
long time, and she is busy. She is just so busy,
(00:52):
going in the homes of toddlers everywhere and helping children
and parents on all all sorts of things. I know
her because she was Albi's toddler and me teacher, and
she is literally a toddler whisperer. I have never met
a woman like this who also makes mothers and fathers
(01:16):
and caretakers and child specialists feel at ease at all times.
And I really think you're all going to benefit from
her vast amount of knowledge but also just her person.
Her name is Carol Provost. She's here to talk preschool
nursery school transition to kindergarten tips, which I have got
(01:37):
a lot of questions about that. Carol Provost has worked
for over forty years as an early childhood educator, parent
support expert, and child development specialist. She has advised administrators
over the years in cultivating play based, developmentally appropriate curriculum
for preschoolers. She has also spent countless hours training preschool
teachers and considers good quality early childhood education fundamental for
(02:01):
a functional society. Carol has also provided in home support
for children struggling with a variety of issues, including separation, anxiety,
toileting difficulties, and delayed social skills. She is currently offering
parental support via telephone or zoom appointment and continues to
offer in home support for children and their families in
the San Fernando Valley. Carol, Oh, I am like literally
(02:24):
emotional that you are here today, Welcome to Katie's crib.
I am just so excited you're here. There is no
one like you. You are one of a kind. I don't understand.
She's the person everyone listening who like the toddlers are
just like fighting to sit on her.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Lap and I miss that.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I'm sure you do. I'm so happy you're here. Thank
you for taking the time. Can you first tell us
how did you get into the early childhood development field.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I think it started with the fraud relationship I had
with my own mother perfect, and I think I grew
up as I got older and started to think about it.
I really didn't know if she really didn't have capacity
and shouldn't have had children, or she didn't have help
(03:25):
and support that might have helped. Because I was born
in nineteen forty two.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
You look great, Carol, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I'll be eighty one.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Oh my god, you look amazing.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Thank you. But times were different then, and the advice
was different then, things like feeds your child every four
hours and not a minute before because they have to
be on a schedule. I was born a four pound
baby and four hours was too long to wait, so
(04:06):
I was upset infant, and she didn't have any skills
or support to handle such a thing. And that continued
through my whole life. And the family's story was kind
of your sister was the easy one, but my sister
(04:28):
also has stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
It just was tough.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
So I always had an interest in it. When I
went to school, I actually got both a bachelor's and
a master's degree in theater. Then I got into child development.
I kind of wasted my education, but the truth is
the master's in directing made me a better nursery school
teacher because I knew what a set should look.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Like, and you also know how to herd cat.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Right, what a room should look like. I knew what
the hum of kids playing, when it worked and when
it didn't, what the pace was like. So it wasn't
a waste and one of the first jobs, because in theater,
your first jobs are not in.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Theater, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
And so I got a job at the Children's Centers
of Los Angeles and got very interested in what they
were doing from my point of view wrong. I went
back and took many classes of extra education from UCLA
(05:39):
Extension and got my child development specialist authorisation and never
looked back. It became a passion to make things better
for moms and kids.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Carol, I'm telling you, I didn't even understand how important
in early childhood life and education and development, any of
it really was until I started touring nursery schools. Really,
people thought I was overdoing it. I think I looked
at like sixteen nursery schools. But it wasn't because in
(06:17):
all honesty, because I wanted LB to get into this
or that or whatever. It was mostly because I was
educating myself. I didn't know what my style was. I
didn't know what kind of set like you're speaking of
really spoke to me and my child, which was where
(06:37):
we crossed paths, and I feel so so lucky that
we did. What do you tell moms that you're working
with to do about tantrums? Let's say let's start there.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Hey, I'm sure, sorry, so much fun, aren't they? They're triggering,
they're difficult. First, I'm going to say to you, reframe it.
Your child is in giving you a hard time. They're
having a hard time. It's a very different way to
look at it. They're overwhelmed, their little brains are trying
(07:09):
to do so much. They get sensory overload, they get
exhausted from a day of trying to socialize, and where
they feel safest is at home with you, and they
melt yes. And so your job as a parent or
a caretaker at school is to meet their chaos with
(07:32):
your calm. So that means regulate yourself. I always liked
I've read somewhere about the acronym stop like a stop sign,
and it means stop, take a breath, observe, and then proceed.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Oh my, by the way, this works with adult Yes,
yes it does. I think when you realize what is superpower,
it is. Look, I think mom's listening. I try very
hard to meet a tantrum. I always think of, Okay,
if I yawn, he's gonna yawn, right if he yawns
(08:16):
ee yon. So if he's freaking out, then I'm going
to freak out and escalates his freak out, which escalates
my freak out. And I've had enough tantrums to know
if I can just stay as regulated as possible for me,
what I've noticed is it lessens the time of the
whole ordeal. Look, I'm not perfect. There have totally been
times where it's also felt wildly good to just lose
(08:38):
my collective shit for a second. But and then I
apologize because I really don't want to meet his tantrum,
like I am an irrational thinking adult.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
But what you just said is very important. There's always
room for repair. Your child is always going to wake
up the next morning totally in love with you and
wanting it to be better. So when everybody's calmed down
a sincere apology, I'm not proud of the way I
handled that. I got too mad. I'm going to work
(09:12):
on that. Teaches them strategies to do the same.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Thing that's exactly right. And we've had doctor Dan Siegel
on who my parents actually did that. I don't think
they knew what they were doing, but my dad was
one of those guys who if we got into something,
or please go to your room and think about what
you've done type of thing. As a teenager, I have
such distinct memories of him coming in my room and
(09:36):
then sitting on the end of my bed and us
like talking about what had happened, and it always ended
up with him in tears because he's sort of emotional,
and he would just be like, Okay, do you feel good.
I feel good, Let's have a hug, let's say we're sorry.
And I don't know if he knew what he was doing,
but we have a wonderful relationship, and I feel like
so much of that is because it wasn't perfect, but
(09:57):
we were very good at letting things zimmer, talking about
them after apologizing and feeling repaired, which I do with
my kids a.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Lot, exactly. It's the most important thing. It teaches them
how to do the same thing that will help them
to have healthy relationships going forward.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
And what do you think I mean? This is such
a hot button topic about discipline and oh my goodness,
like timeouts, grounding. Obviously anything physical is a no note,
but anything in that world you could advise on.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Absolutely to think of discipline as teaching, not punishment. Discipline
is a chance to teach somebody coping skills during a
hard time. Timeouts I really don't like, because when a
child needs you most is when they have melted down
(10:55):
or acting out, and when you isolate them with that,
with the shame of that. It's not a way to regulate.
It's a way to shut down and become depressed. You
may think that's compliance, but there's a price to pay
for that. If a child is acting out, they're telling
(11:17):
you they need your super ego to sustain theirs till
they can regain their ability to calm and proceed. And
so what I like is time in. But again, what
you have to do is regulate yourself so that you
(11:38):
can handle it. You might have to take a minute,
you might have to say to your child, I'm getting
too mad, I'm too grumpy right now, I'm going to
go to the bathroom, or I'm going to go into
my room for a minute and I'm going to calm
down so that we can work this out. And then
(12:00):
you do that and come back and say, today is
a day when you don't seem to be able to
keep your hands from hitting other kids. So come hold
mine and we're gonna do play doough together, or we're
going to make a cake or whatever it is so
(12:22):
they can work out some of that stuff. And in
the process of doing that, you're letting the child know
that you're here for them, that they seem to have
lost their balance for a minute, emotional balance, and you're
there to provide yours. So you know, the same thing
is we say all the time, put your oxygen mask
(12:43):
on first.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Right, stop with whatever the stop means.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Stop exactly, stop, take a breath, observe, and proceed the observing.
The observation is what's going on? Is he hungry? Is
she tired?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
They get a bad night's sleep.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Has school just been too long? Too many transitions today?
Maybe there's so they're not going to tell you about it.
At the time of the melt or the acting out.
They don't have access to cognitive abilities in those times.
The chemicals in the brain that get downloaded, as Stan
(13:25):
Siegel will tell you, makes it impossible for them to
take in cognitive information. So don't try.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Oh, I remember my marriage. I was like, our marriage
is not going to survive this if he's trying to
have a teachable moment in the midst of a meltdown,
Like I was like, please, this is not for him.
This must be for you, Adam, my husband, this is
and this is a product of how your parents were
(13:55):
drilling things of right and wrong into your head when
you were freaking out. But I'm like, we can't. He's
not able to right now. Right now is just about
how do we regulate? Is that a time in for me,
because it most of the time is so that I
can handle it once the calm has happened, like maybe
we can hold hands or have a hug or have
(14:15):
a cuddle or draw something.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And then later maybe another time talk about it. I'm
going to tell the story. This is what happened. You
got so mad, you threw your plate on the floor.
I got crumpy, and we both were mad, and then
we got a hug. We calmed down. Now we're reading
(14:39):
stories and everything's okay, because that's what families do. They
make everything okay.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Ah, And let me tell you something. Carol's daughter, Alexis
is also a mom that I'm very close to, and
she is wonderful. So I have first hand experience. If
you're listening to this and you're like, I don't know, man,
and like I don't have the patience or the time
to really do this. First of all, when you reframe
your mind, it is very easy in my experience, and
(15:10):
my son was not a piece of pie at all.
He is not, and it's what I love most about him.
But seeing Alexis as a full grown adult who is
Carol's daughter, and seeing Alexis's daughter Carol's grandkids, I'm like,
they are wonderful, fulfilled human beings. So I have firsthand knowledge,
y'all that this is working.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Except that I want you to do. That's not what
it looked like when Alexis was in preschool, she was
a highly spirited kid. I had absolutely no idea. I'm
sure I made a million mistakes, some huge that I'll
(15:54):
never forget, and somehow for one thing, you know, so
what helped repair so much of that being a grandparent,
because it's so different, and I think for your kids
that you made a lot of mistakes with when they
see you repairing it through their children and by being
(16:19):
there for their children in a different way, it goes
back and repairs not only your own little childhood it
get maybe treated that way, but also for your children.
It means that there's repair possible in life. And what
I can say about Alexis is your spirited children may
(16:43):
tax you to the core, but their world changers. They
will fight for justice, they will raise valued human beings,
and that's what you want in what's become a very
tough world.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I love hearing this. I'm having this memory of coming
into toddler class that you were facilitating, and I was
so upset because I'll be is a very spirited child.
I just spent so many times of the three and
four year old years like heavily negotiating with a like
a lawyer. I'm such a people pleaser, and I mean,
(17:21):
he's literally my perfect opposite match, this child, and he
is not conflict averse. He is very stubborn and strong
willed and opinionated and loved to negotiate and loud, and
he hit a lot of children, and I was panicked.
I was so panicked, and I came to you and
I told you these things. You were so not worried,
(17:43):
and that made me not worried. And it just you
were like just very no held space for exactly who
he is. And I'll never forget it. I was so appreciative,
and I think actually what you said was you know
that there's things too. Obviously every parent has concerned, but
even the parents especially who have children who might be listening,
(18:03):
who are very shy, who don't speak up for themselves,
or who are very slow to warm, and things like that,
your child is who they are, and you're always like
terrified about giving them the tools they're going to need
to get through it.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Right. I actually worry a little bit more about the
shutdown kids than I do about the spirited kids, because
they're going to take on the world and injustice and
fight for their children and in ways that in the
end are going to serve them so well. But I
think what helps a shy child is acceptance that they're observers.
(18:44):
My son is very different from his sister and he's
also a wonderful human being of whom I'm immensely proud.
But he always observed, and I used to say he
didn't do anything till he thought he could look cool
doing it. So he was late to walk, and he
(19:06):
did a lot of I remember his little sister would
go down the scary pole in the park when he
still was afraid to do it. There's a picture I
have of them as very young children where he's bent
over and looking worried and anxious, and his little sister
has got him by the hand and she's strutting down
(19:27):
the beach and she's got him there, very close to
the stay. But that was a very different temperament. He
needed much smaller corrections. And when I had Alexis, it
was so different. I thought, you can't judge a parent
for being a good er bad parent based on one child,
(19:49):
because they're gonna get you with the next ones. And
that's what keeps you humble and keeps you honest. You
don't know who you've got till you get to know them,
and don't try and make a child an adult. I
used to joke that my son Zachary was born at
(20:10):
the age of forty two, because he was very verbal
before he moved, and he seemed to understand the world
in a different way. But he had his own challenges
and socializing with kids was not easy, and if they
got in his space, he got overwhelmed and acted out.
(20:32):
And I thought it was a great gift to have
two very different temperaments because it expanded my knowledge of children.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yes, and I think it's a good note for parents
to be careful. I hear parents make narratives for their
kids that I'm not sure even one hundred percent true.
Yet she's got a really she's really sickly like disposition.
She's sick all the time, she catches germs all the time.
I just hear it, and I'm like, don't know if
that's good or bad. Just it is what it is.
(21:02):
Maybe we shouldn't judge it.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
You're better off framing it by your own feeling. I
get triggered by this behavior or that behavior rather than
a character assessment, because it may be a bad day,
it may be a mood, it may be a phase.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Good God face, something.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
That tells the whole story. I'd like to I think
my favorite thing to say to parents is this is
not the end of the story. This is the beginning
of the story.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
This is so helpful Carol. Everyone who's listening. Everything is
a phase, and Carol got me through one of the
hardest when Albie was really hitting a lot of children.
I was up all night so upset because obviously I'm
a people pleaser, and I couldn't believe that I had
the kid on the playground that was hitting other children,
and I'm just apologizing to everyone and so scared no
one's gonna like me or my kid and had to
put on my big girl pants and learn how to
(21:56):
anticipate help him through that.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Stay close, put your hand right there. I'm not going
to let you hit, but I will help you. Tell
me what you need. I want that toy. I'm going
to help you wait, and this is how we can
get it. When you get done with it, will you
please give it to Albie? And then now I'm going
to hold your hand and help you wait. You know
(22:19):
how many times have you seen moms at the park
say things to their kids from the bench and the
kids don't hear it, don't listen when you speak. Make
sure that it has impact. It means follow through. It
means you can't say things like play nights or use
(22:40):
your words. If they could use their words at those times,
they would, they generally have them. But they're at the
moment that they're feeling threatened or fight or flight that
chemical kicks in. They just defend, and they defend by
hitting because they don't know what to do. That's when
(23:01):
you move in and you help. I'm here, I gotcha.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
I can't tell you like being on this other side
of it. Like he's five and a half now, and
the years I spent I'm sticking close by. I'm going
to be putting. I'm putting my hand up because I
won't let you hit someone's body. What do you need?
How can I help you? Would you like this toy?
For years I did this. It was exhausting. I'm not
gonna lie. However, I prepared my son for those years
(23:29):
because now he's got a little sister. And let me
tell you something. She hits him, and he does not.
He holds his hands by his side and he yells
sometimes in her face, like a big guttural scream, and
he says, but I'm not hitting her because I'm not
going to hit her, but I'm gonna yell because I'm
so frustrated that she just hit me. Good for him,
and I'm like, yeah, I worked my ass off for.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
This, that's right, and that's the payoff. That's not See.
It wasn't the end of the story, Sadie.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Nope, I worked my ass off and it literally pays
itself back every day. And I tell him, remember how
we taught you how to use your hands and how
to treat other people's bodies. Now we're teaching this, Verra,
We're teaching this to your sister. It has been such
a blessing. I can't tell you to have a leader
like you and the advice like that to even know
what to do. What should parents look for in a
(24:33):
nursery school?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
In your opinion, I have a bias, But what I
think very clearly is that play is the work of children,
and what children in preschool should be doing is playing
because it's how they make sense of the world. It's
how they work out things in their emotional life. It's
(24:55):
how they make sense of medical trauma. It's how they
make sense of divorce or travel.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Or having a sibling.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yes, absolutely having a sibling. They have a whole bunch
of years to be academic scholars if that's their thing,
or work with their hands and do something wonderful if
it's not their thing. But there's only one time in
life when play can be the priority and be supported.
(25:28):
And when you look around and see how many adults
can't play, you can guess what happened to them too early.
There's no Studies show that there is no advantage to
introducing right and wrong academic work in the preschool years.
(25:49):
A good play based preschool will have all of the
things that they need to get ready for learning. They'll
have the shapes and the toys and the puzzles, and
that thing together that will sustain blocks our preparation for math,
dress up corner as a preparation for life. The puzzles
(26:13):
and manipulative toys are a preparation for reading and writing,
and they are Artists will come from being allowed to
express themselves in all art media without a right way
to do it. My advice would be look for a
(26:33):
place where kids are happy, engaged themselves in my work
with children by going to their homes privately. I've observed
a lot of schools. Now you have to remember I
taught at the same nursery school for over forty years.
I didn't visit a lot of schools, and it's been
(26:53):
eye opening, and some of it has been very depressing.
And in visiting a school where the emphasis was language immersion,
I saw a lot of shutdown kids and kids whose
bodies were you could tell aching to play and if
they said the wrong thing, they were told it was
(27:15):
wrong and had to do it again. Maybe that's very
important a few years from then. But in preschool, how
many kids learn another language by having it be around them,
or having a nanny who speaks it, or having parents
who speak it. There's all kinds of ways to get there.
(27:37):
But honor play in the preschool years would be my advice.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I would like to honor play for like way longer, right.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
So would I. But then life kicks in a lot
of outdoor stuff, a lot of acceptance of different kinds
of kids. How do they handle rambunctious children who maybe
don't have perfect impulse control. Do you let them mesh
up and then correct them or do you take their
(28:09):
hand and get ahead of it. How are the adults
responding to children? How are they responding to the active
wild child? How are they responding to the shy and
introverted child. Everything is relationship based. Are they willing to
make relationships?
Speaker 1 (28:31):
I have seen amazing stuff in my all the tours
I did, but like you said, like watching children who
might have lots of sensory things, kids like my kid
who is like, please don't sing Happy Birthday, you have
to whisper it. I'm gonna fly off the handle if
I near a car honk, or a kid that might
be slightly on the spectrum. There's a kid that I'LBI
(28:52):
grew up with that Carol knows, and she was so
shy and one of those kids that took months of
crying over the separation of her mom. And thank god
the teachers were trained to be able to attach themselves
to her. And now she has blossomed like a flower
like none I've seen. I can't even remember that shy girl.
(29:13):
Not to say that she's misperformer or anything, but it
thank god she was in a place that honored and
met her where she exactly was and just held her
hand and helped her through that.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Remember that this is the first time preschool they're in
community without mom and dad. It has to be a
safe place. It has to be a place that accepts
who they are. And that's the other thing I want
to say, building on that, is make sure the separation
process is gentle. Be weary of a school that says, oh,
(29:47):
drop them off the first day, they'll cry and they'll
get over it. No, that's not what happens. They may
stop crying, but that means they shut down. That doesn't
mean they resolved it. You want to look at separation
in the face, say goodbye to your mommy. If you're sad,
(30:08):
I'll help you. Wow, that's why I'm here. I'm gonna
help you. That's how you make a relationship with this kid.
You're not afraid of their hardest feelings. You're not afraid
if they're sad. You're never gonna say, don't cry. You're
gonna say your feelings are safe with me. I'm gonna
help you.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I'm here speaking of that same topic for those listening
who might be on the precipice of a big transition,
whether it's be starting nursery school or for me, starting kindergarten,
which I honestly think is gonna be way harder for
me than my son. Any advice on preparing how we
can lovingly prepare our children for this once we have
(30:48):
made the choice of where they will be going to school.
What advice do you have for parents on that next journey.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
One of the things I know about the school where
your kids go is that they will help you with that.
They start preparing a few months before they start identifying
the graduates. They start talking about what the changes are
going to be. One of the techniques that I love
(31:20):
to use Katie with preschool kids is to make books.
You take plain white paper, you staple them together, you
make stick figure drawings, and you talk about what's going
to happen. There's a wonderful printed book called Will I
Have a Friend?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I don't know this book writing it on my list.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I don't know the author off hand, but it's easily
googled and ordered. I think it's about preschool, but it's
perfect also for kindergarten because the changes. Am I going
to be safe there? Am I going to have a
friend there? Is it going to be different? First of all,
allow the sad feelings about leaving the school they're going to,
(32:02):
and then reassure them that you're going to be with
them at the beginning, that it's going to be hard,
and that they will be okay because look how well
they did in nursery school. They're going to have the skills,
they're going to make friends. It may feel uncomfortable for
(32:23):
a while, but it's going to be fine, and we're
going to help you at home, because that's what families do,
help each other.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Will I have a Friend? By Miriam Cohen and Lillian Hoban.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yes, wonderful, wonderful book, and I am.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Getting that immediately. I think my biggest thing selfishly asking
I feel that our nursery school has completely prepared him socially.
He's just great with conflict and with other people and groups,
Thank heavens. However, I'm really curious to see because the
(32:58):
drop off is going to be very different. It's like line,
but would they begin?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Are you there at all?
Speaker 1 (33:06):
For yees?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah. I walk him into I walk him to his
classroom door with all the parents, and he has a
bunch of playdates leading up to it with other kids
in his class, where he's met the principal and we've
actually I've cheated a little bit, and I keep hanging
out with other kids who I know who go there
and have gone with their mothers to pick them up
like without me, so he's been on campus.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
That's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I'm like, let's just have it be And he's pumped,
like he's completely excited. But he says, I'm two things
at once. He says, I'm excited and I'm nervous.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I love that, you know. That's there were usedupid book
that I used to read to the kids when I
taught nursery school called double Dip Feelings, And that's another
great one. You can hold two feelings at the same time.
I'm a little bit scared and a little bit excited.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I was thinking, I mean, we're talking about the transition
into preschool, transition into kindergarten. What about other transitions like
mommy's got to go back to work or has a
big job, or someone's going away. How do you help
parents with those kinds of transitions.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
For preschool children, I tell them maybe a week before,
not months before, because they can't handle it. But a
week before. That's when making a book comes in really
handy pictures of an airplane, pictures of a destination, or
we send the book with a reunion. Then mommy's done
(34:47):
and mommy comes back, or we go away, we come back.
That old preschool book, You go Away, You Come Back,
ends with now we're taking a big trip, we will
come back. And so your own book follows that theme
of reunion.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
What's the name of that book? I don't even know.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
You go Away, You Come Back. They have it at
the school, many copies, I think, So you can either
get it or you can borrow it.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
We made it Adam. Of course, my husband's so good
attack but when he booked a job in Budapeshe last year,
and I was so scared because he'd be back and
forth for like eight months. And we made this book
where we printed out like what is hotel looked like
and on a plane, and what Hungarian food looked like,
and then Daddy comes home and then we're going to
go to Budapeste, and then it was like pictures of
what Albi would be doing in Budapeste.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
That's exactly right. That's how you prepare, and there's always
your reunion at the end. And then for the person
at home, if they're staying at home while you go,
it's helpful to cross out the calendar, cross out every
single day, how many more sleeps, And sometimes with preschool,
(35:59):
FaceTime really helps and sometimes it makes it harder, and
it's hard to know if you can take the potential
tears in FaceTime. It's probably helpful for your kids to
see you, to hear that you miss them and that
you will be home soon. As the kid's dad, my
(36:21):
grandchildren's dad travels a lot, and that kind of thing
really helps. Strangely enough, I've heard so many people say
mothers feel horribly guilty about those things and dads don't. Yeah,
but it's often a male thing. Work is important to them,
(36:43):
and it's probably has in some ways equal importance for
whatever reason, and moms are always torn that they're doing
a terrible thing and they're not. It's what they do.
You're modeling for your kids how to have a fulfilled
and creative life. And as long as you have people
(37:05):
sustaining them that you trust and that they feel comfortable with,
they're going to be fine. I made a mistake once
when my kids were little, for all kinds of reasons
that I won't get into, and I took a trip
with my husband that was way too long to leave.
Alexis was twenty one months old. It probably took me
(37:28):
maybe twenty years to repair that one. Carol No and
I wouldn't make that decision today given what I now know.
But I was fallible, I was vulnerable. It seemed important
at the time. Who knows. My in laws took care
of them. They were okay, but that look, when I
(37:52):
got back of who are You? It wasn't was thirty days.
It was way too long for a twenty one month
old to not check in. And remember they didn't have
all the technology back then, so I couldn't do FaceTime
and all that stuff. Anyway, if you tell ask Alexis now,
(38:16):
she'll probably tell you that we've repaired that, but she'll
also tell you how hard it was, and I have
to be willing to hear.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah, yeah, gosh, that's great. Okay, this is what I
think is coming down the pipe, selfishly for me, kids
playing doctors with friends, self exploring their bodies, What the
hell is about to happen to my life and how
do I get through it.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
That's a very normal and natural part of development. There's
a reason that nursery schools have co ed bathrooms so
kids can see each other, identify each other, and enjoy
looking at other genitalia and figuring out what it is.
(39:03):
When they are touching each other and figuring that stuff out.
They're exploring in a natural way. Our society freaks out
and makes it something else. Here. We have a hyper
sexualized society that shows all these images, and yet when
(39:25):
kids do what in a tribe touch would have been natural.
They then we can't understand it and we freak out.
So you can say, don't make it wrong, but if
you're uncomfortable with it, you can don't put it. First
of all, you tell them don't put things inside your
(39:45):
body because it's not safe and it could hurt you.
But don't make them wrong for being curious and for
being interested. You can say, yep, vaginas are great to
look at, but they're private. Right. If a kid is
touching themselves in the thin out in the household, you
(40:06):
can say, I can see that. That feels really good,
and it's also private, So go in your room and
enjoy it well when you come back out. It's not
an outside thing, it's not a family thing. But it's
enjoyable and it feels good, and you can do it
in your room.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
That's so great. There's a girl in our school who
did that a lot. It was really interesting to see
and really cool to watch like her not be shamed
for that. It was obviously like a stress relieving thing.
She was fiddling around, and after a little bit, you know,
they were like, okay, well you could do that when
you get home in your room. It was really interesting
(40:44):
to watch them not make her feel like she was
in trouble or that it was bad.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Very important, very important, because we do all kinds of
things to stimulate kids, just in billboards and pictures and
all kinds of things, and then we make them wrong
for exploring their own bodies. We don't have to do that,
but we can also teach them to be socially acceptable.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
What do you do for kids with sensory stuff? Which
I never even knew was a thing growing up. I'd
never heard of it.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
It's more and more of a thing as they are.
More and more neuro divergent kids are being identified, and
some kids who aren't necessarily neurodiversion also have sensory issues. Fortunately,
there's a wonderful thing called OT and OT can emphasize
(41:42):
sensory integration. So if you think it's a real problem,
if your child is consistently overwhelmed with sensory issues, clothes
or uncomfortable to tags on shirts, bother them. They have
to have socks a certain way. They don't think about
(42:03):
adding OT to your schedule because I've seen it be
incredibly helpful to children, and they're bursting at the seams
these clinics. That's what Alexis does now, so I'm familiar.
They've never been so many kids. I think some of
it may be anxiety from the pandemic. I don't even know,
(42:26):
but there's a tremendous amount of it. So there's things
that you can do to address that. And again it's
something that they will learn to manage. So what I
say to parents is, if your kids need a little
help in this area. I don't know a human being
in this world that gets through this journey of life
(42:47):
without help. Somewhere along the.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Way, I went to OT. I needed help because I
couldn't take one more hair washing of my son. He
wouldn't if you try to shampoo his hair, or brush
his hair or give him a haircut. You have to
wash your kid's head a couple times a week. It's
like I was pushing, and I'm a virgo who loves cleanliness,
(43:10):
and if you wash his hair, brush his hair, it's
like you're killing him with a fork in the eyeball.
It is a horrible experience for me, and I was like,
I got to talk to somebody who can help me.
I mean, there's gonna be a lot more hair washing
in our future and I can't do this. Did they
help you? Oh yeah, I got these awesome head massage
(43:32):
er things that coached him through touch in his head
in a way that he felt okay. We were very communicative.
He was much like it was such so much about
self autonomy, like learning how to wash his own hair,
what was good.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
And also you then reminding him, remember you, I know
you don't like this, it's necessary to do it. Remember
your strategies, what helps you? What do you like? What
don't you like?
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Where would you like?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
I'm going to tell you what. I'm going to pour
water over your head so you can close your eyes,
or do you want to pour it yourself? Get a
little picture and let him do it himself.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
It was wild watching his sister in the time with him,
because she's couldn't give a shit, Like she's looking at
him having and she's like, what's happening? And that's when
I was like, oh, this seems extra, this is something?
Is this is not?
Speaker 2 (44:27):
He's more sensorally sensitive.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
And I knew he had noise sound stuff and anyway,
it ot was great. I love that piece of advice.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
I can't recommend it enough. I think it's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
What's the best preschool tip that you've received?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
To honor the play of children as important work and
don't interrupt it unless it's absolutely necessary. Do what you
can to support it and sustain it.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
What's the best preschool tip that you've given?
Speaker 2 (45:00):
The tip that I would give people most raising preschool
kids is keep a twinkle in your heart, keep a
sense of humor. These stages will pass. They're okay, You're okay, smile,
it's okay.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
If that isn't a tip for life, I don't know
what is. That's how I feel about it. What remains
undone that you've wanted to get done for years? When
it comes to educating preschool children.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
They'll always be children and parents who are struggling. The
work will never be done. To keep doing it till
I no longer walk on this earth.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
This question terrifies me because God willing, I'm your age,
and I get to ask myself this looking back at
raising your own kids, what would you do the same
and what would you change other than that thirty day trip.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
That's for sure. I remember that. I wish I guess
that old saying you can't know what you know till
you know it. I didn't know the things I know now.
I learned so much from the nursery school when my
own children went there, the same school our kids are
going to. That I made it my life's work to
(46:25):
continue that work. I definitely wish I had known a
lot of that stuff earlier. I think I would have
been a much better mom. So I get to be
a better grandma and my kids get to see it,
and that's important too.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Oh I love that. What is Did you even have
a registry when you were pregnant? Was that a thing?
Speaker 2 (46:51):
It was not a thing for me, but I was
recently living in California, I didn't really have I was
away from family. I didn't have a whole support system
then about kids. I didn't but in the but I've
seen it through the years as my grandkids are born.
(47:13):
And the best thing that I can imagine giving children
is books, books, books.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Books, books, And I just wrote down three from this
podcast that I don't know. Thanks to Carol, you need
to give me a list. What advice would you like
to give to children in general as they get closer
to nursery school in kindergarten.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Age, That Mommy will stay with them, That they will
until they are comfortable. That it might be hard, and
it might they might have all kinds of feelings and
it's all going to be okay because you're going to
pick a nursery school, hopefully with teachers that will make
(47:57):
them feel safe and make them feel and normalize that
it's absolutely normal to feel anxious. And also another tip
would be don't tell them the end of the story
before they begin. In other words, don't emphasize soon I
will leave you there, say we're going to start school.
(48:20):
I'm going to be there. Yeah, it'll be okay.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, that's really good. Don't play the end at the beginning, right, Okay.
We always ask our guests this question. Finish this sentence.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Parenthood is the most humbling experience you will ever have.
You can be great at your career, and this will
bring you to your knees.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
It is so humbling. It's a road, and parenting is
so hard, but it is so rewarding if you can
get yourself back up from falling down on your knees.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
It's all about heading back up. It's all about that.
And you're learning. You say to your kids, we're learning
how to be a family of four. We didn't know
we were a family of three. Now we're a family
of four. I'm learning how to be a mom. I'm
doing the best I can. I'm learning.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
This was so helpful. I know all of our listeners
are just like shouting from the rooftops and have such
practical tips, advice and thoughts that they can take with
them from today.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Thank you. Can I give you my email in case
people want to get in please tell us all right,
it's all lowercase provost p r vosg CB at gmail.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Provost CB all lowercase at gmail dot com. I'm so
grateful for the time, and I couldn't have had a
better guest with my children just entering and exiting my
closet as much as they are.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
That means a lot. At this point in my life,
I look back, and that's what means so much. To
have made a difference in one life means who have succeeded.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Oh my goodness, Carol I think and hear you in
my head daily day, and all of the phrases that
you've said, even on this podcast, I hear you daily,
and I'm so grateful to you.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Thank you, Katie.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.
I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.
Let me know. You can always find me at Katie'scrib
at Shondaland dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of
Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
(50:52):
you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. What's the best preschool tip that you've given?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The tip that I would give people most raising preschool
kids is keep a twinkle in your heart. Keep a
sense of humor. These stages will pass. They're okay, You're okay. Smile,
it's okay.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
If that isn't a tip for life, I don't know
what is. Hello, everybody, Welcome back to Katie's Crib. I
have been trying to get today's guest on for a
long time, and she is busy. She is just so busy,
(00:52):
going in the homes of toddlers everywhere and helping children
and parents on all all sorts of things. I know
her because she was Albi's toddler and me teacher, and
she is literally a toddler whisperer. I have never met
a woman like this who also makes mothers and fathers
(01:16):
and caretakers and child specialists feel at ease at all times.
And I really think you're all going to benefit from
her vast amount of knowledge but also just her person.
Her name is Carol Provost. She's here to talk preschool
nursery school transition to kindergarten tips, which I have got
(01:37):
a lot of questions about that. Carol Provost has worked
for over forty years as an early childhood educator, parent
support expert, and child development specialist. She has advised administrators
over the years in cultivating play based, developmentally appropriate curriculum
for preschoolers. She has also spent countless hours training preschool
teachers and considers good quality early childhood education fundamental for
(02:01):
a functional society. Carol has also provided in home support
for children struggling with a variety of issues, including separation, anxiety,
toileting difficulties, and delayed social skills. She is currently offering
parental support via telephone or zoom appointment and continues to
offer in home support for children and their families in
the San Fernando Valley. Carol, Oh, I am like literally
(02:24):
emotional that you are here today, Welcome to Katie's crib.
I am just so excited you're here. There is no
one like you. You are one of a kind. I don't understand.
She's the person everyone listening who like the toddlers are
just like fighting to sit on her.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Lap and I miss that.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I'm sure you do. I'm so happy you're here. Thank
you for taking the time. Can you first tell us
how did you get into the early childhood development field.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I think it started with the fraud relationship I had
with my own mother perfect, and I think I grew
up as I got older and started to think about it.
I really didn't know if she really didn't have capacity
and shouldn't have had children, or she didn't have help
(03:25):
and support that might have helped. Because I was born
in nineteen forty two.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
You look great, Carol, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I'll be eighty one.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Oh my god, you look amazing.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Thank you. But times were different then, and the advice
was different then, things like feeds your child every four
hours and not a minute before because they have to
be on a schedule. I was born a four pound
baby and four hours was too long to wait, so
(04:06):
I was upset infant, and she didn't have any skills
or support to handle such a thing. And that continued
through my whole life. And the family's story was kind
of your sister was the easy one, but my sister
(04:28):
also has stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
It just was tough.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
So I always had an interest in it. When I
went to school, I actually got both a bachelor's and
a master's degree in theater. Then I got into child development.
I kind of wasted my education, but the truth is
the master's in directing made me a better nursery school
teacher because I knew what a set should look.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Like, and you also know how to herd cat.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Right, what a room should look like. I knew what
the hum of kids playing, when it worked and when
it didn't, what the pace was like. So it wasn't
a waste and one of the first jobs, because in theater,
your first jobs are not in.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Theater, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
And so I got a job at the Children's Centers
of Los Angeles and got very interested in what they
were doing from my point of view wrong. I went
back and took many classes of extra education from UCLA
(05:39):
Extension and got my child development specialist authorisation and never
looked back. It became a passion to make things better
for moms and kids.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Carol, I'm telling you, I didn't even understand how important
in early childhood life and education and development, any of
it really was until I started touring nursery schools. Really,
people thought I was overdoing it. I think I looked
at like sixteen nursery schools. But it wasn't because in
(06:17):
all honesty, because I wanted LB to get into this
or that or whatever. It was mostly because I was
educating myself. I didn't know what my style was. I
didn't know what kind of set like you're speaking of
really spoke to me and my child, which was where
(06:37):
we crossed paths, and I feel so so lucky that
we did. What do you tell moms that you're working
with to do about tantrums? Let's say let's start there.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Hey, I'm sure, sorry, so much fun, aren't they? They're triggering,
they're difficult. First, I'm going to say to you, reframe it.
Your child is in giving you a hard time. They're
having a hard time. It's a very different way to
look at it. They're overwhelmed, their little brains are trying
(07:09):
to do so much. They get sensory overload, they get
exhausted from a day of trying to socialize, and where
they feel safest is at home with you, and they
melt yes. And so your job as a parent or
a caretaker at school is to meet their chaos with
(07:32):
your calm. So that means regulate yourself. I always liked
I've read somewhere about the acronym stop like a stop sign,
and it means stop, take a breath, observe, and then proceed.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Oh my, by the way, this works with adult Yes,
yes it does. I think when you realize what is superpower,
it is. Look, I think mom's listening. I try very
hard to meet a tantrum. I always think of, Okay,
if I yawn, he's gonna yawn, right if he yawns
(08:16):
ee yon. So if he's freaking out, then I'm going
to freak out and escalates his freak out, which escalates
my freak out. And I've had enough tantrums to know
if I can just stay as regulated as possible for me,
what I've noticed is it lessens the time of the
whole ordeal. Look, I'm not perfect. There have totally been
times where it's also felt wildly good to just lose
(08:38):
my collective shit for a second. But and then I
apologize because I really don't want to meet his tantrum,
like I am an irrational thinking adult.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
But what you just said is very important. There's always
room for repair. Your child is always going to wake
up the next morning totally in love with you and
wanting it to be better. So when everybody's calmed down
a sincere apology, I'm not proud of the way I
handled that. I got too mad. I'm going to work
(09:12):
on that. Teaches them strategies to do the same.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Thing that's exactly right. And we've had doctor Dan Siegel
on who my parents actually did that. I don't think
they knew what they were doing, but my dad was
one of those guys who if we got into something,
or please go to your room and think about what
you've done type of thing. As a teenager, I have
such distinct memories of him coming in my room and
(09:36):
then sitting on the end of my bed and us
like talking about what had happened, and it always ended
up with him in tears because he's sort of emotional,
and he would just be like, Okay, do you feel good.
I feel good, Let's have a hug, let's say we're sorry.
And I don't know if he knew what he was doing,
but we have a wonderful relationship, and I feel like
so much of that is because it wasn't perfect, but
(09:57):
we were very good at letting things zimmer, talking about
them after apologizing and feeling repaired, which I do with
my kids a.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Lot, exactly. It's the most important thing. It teaches them
how to do the same thing that will help them
to have healthy relationships going forward.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
And what do you think I mean? This is such
a hot button topic about discipline and oh my goodness,
like timeouts, grounding. Obviously anything physical is a no note,
but anything in that world you could advise on.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Absolutely to think of discipline as teaching, not punishment. Discipline
is a chance to teach somebody coping skills during a
hard time. Timeouts I really don't like, because when a
child needs you most is when they have melted down
(10:55):
or acting out, and when you isolate them with that,
with the shame of that. It's not a way to regulate.
It's a way to shut down and become depressed. You
may think that's compliance, but there's a price to pay
for that. If a child is acting out, they're telling
(11:17):
you they need your super ego to sustain theirs till
they can regain their ability to calm and proceed. And
so what I like is time in. But again, what
you have to do is regulate yourself so that you
(11:38):
can handle it. You might have to take a minute,
you might have to say to your child, I'm getting
too mad, I'm too grumpy right now, I'm going to
go to the bathroom, or I'm going to go into
my room for a minute and I'm going to calm
down so that we can work this out. And then
(12:00):
you do that and come back and say, today is
a day when you don't seem to be able to
keep your hands from hitting other kids. So come hold
mine and we're gonna do play doough together, or we're
going to make a cake or whatever it is so
(12:22):
they can work out some of that stuff. And in
the process of doing that, you're letting the child know
that you're here for them, that they seem to have
lost their balance for a minute, emotional balance, and you're
there to provide yours. So you know, the same thing
is we say all the time, put your oxygen mask
(12:43):
on first.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Right, stop with whatever the stop means.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Stop exactly, stop, take a breath, observe, and proceed the observing.
The observation is what's going on? Is he hungry? Is
she tired?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
They get a bad night's sleep.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Has school just been too long? Too many transitions today?
Maybe there's so they're not going to tell you about it.
At the time of the melt or the acting out.
They don't have access to cognitive abilities in those times.
The chemicals in the brain that get downloaded, as Stan
(13:25):
Siegel will tell you, makes it impossible for them to
take in cognitive information. So don't try.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Oh, I remember my marriage. I was like, our marriage
is not going to survive this if he's trying to
have a teachable moment in the midst of a meltdown,
Like I was like, please, this is not for him.
This must be for you, Adam, my husband, this is
and this is a product of how your parents were
(13:55):
drilling things of right and wrong into your head when
you were freaking out. But I'm like, we can't. He's
not able to right now. Right now is just about
how do we regulate? Is that a time in for me,
because it most of the time is so that I
can handle it once the calm has happened, like maybe
we can hold hands or have a hug or have
(14:15):
a cuddle or draw something.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And then later maybe another time talk about it. I'm
going to tell the story. This is what happened. You
got so mad, you threw your plate on the floor.
I got crumpy, and we both were mad, and then
we got a hug. We calmed down. Now we're reading
(14:39):
stories and everything's okay, because that's what families do. They
make everything okay.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Ah, And let me tell you something. Carol's daughter, Alexis
is also a mom that I'm very close to, and
she is wonderful. So I have first hand experience. If
you're listening to this and you're like, I don't know, man,
and like I don't have the patience or the time
to really do this. First of all, when you reframe
your mind, it is very easy in my experience, and
(15:10):
my son was not a piece of pie at all.
He is not, and it's what I love most about him.
But seeing Alexis as a full grown adult who is
Carol's daughter, and seeing Alexis's daughter Carol's grandkids, I'm like,
they are wonderful, fulfilled human beings. So I have firsthand knowledge,
y'all that this is working.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Except that I want you to do. That's not what
it looked like when Alexis was in preschool, she was
a highly spirited kid. I had absolutely no idea. I'm
sure I made a million mistakes, some huge that I'll
(15:54):
never forget, and somehow for one thing, you know, so
what helped repair so much of that being a grandparent,
because it's so different, and I think for your kids
that you made a lot of mistakes with when they
see you repairing it through their children and by being
(16:19):
there for their children in a different way, it goes
back and repairs not only your own little childhood it
get maybe treated that way, but also for your children.
It means that there's repair possible in life. And what
I can say about Alexis is your spirited children may
(16:43):
tax you to the core, but their world changers. They
will fight for justice, they will raise valued human beings,
and that's what you want in what's become a very
tough world.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I love hearing this. I'm having this memory of coming
into toddler class that you were facilitating, and I was
so upset because I'll be is a very spirited child.
I just spent so many times of the three and
four year old years like heavily negotiating with a like
a lawyer. I'm such a people pleaser, and I mean,
(17:21):
he's literally my perfect opposite match, this child, and he
is not conflict averse. He is very stubborn and strong
willed and opinionated and loved to negotiate and loud, and
he hit a lot of children, and I was panicked.
I was so panicked, and I came to you and
I told you these things. You were so not worried,
(17:43):
and that made me not worried. And it just you
were like just very no held space for exactly who
he is. And I'll never forget it. I was so appreciative,
and I think actually what you said was you know
that there's things too. Obviously every parent has concerned, but
even the parents especially who have children who might be listening,
(18:03):
who are very shy, who don't speak up for themselves,
or who are very slow to warm, and things like that,
your child is who they are, and you're always like
terrified about giving them the tools they're going to need
to get through it.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Right. I actually worry a little bit more about the
shutdown kids than I do about the spirited kids, because
they're going to take on the world and injustice and
fight for their children and in ways that in the
end are going to serve them so well. But I
think what helps a shy child is acceptance that they're observers.
(18:44):
My son is very different from his sister and he's
also a wonderful human being of whom I'm immensely proud.
But he always observed, and I used to say he
didn't do anything till he thought he could look cool
doing it. So he was late to walk, and he
(19:06):
did a lot of I remember his little sister would
go down the scary pole in the park when he
still was afraid to do it. There's a picture I
have of them as very young children where he's bent
over and looking worried and anxious, and his little sister
has got him by the hand and she's strutting down
(19:27):
the beach and she's got him there, very close to
the stay. But that was a very different temperament. He
needed much smaller corrections. And when I had Alexis, it
was so different. I thought, you can't judge a parent
for being a good er bad parent based on one child,
(19:49):
because they're gonna get you with the next ones. And
that's what keeps you humble and keeps you honest. You
don't know who you've got till you get to know them,
and don't try and make a child an adult. I
used to joke that my son Zachary was born at
(20:10):
the age of forty two, because he was very verbal
before he moved, and he seemed to understand the world
in a different way. But he had his own challenges
and socializing with kids was not easy, and if they
got in his space, he got overwhelmed and acted out.
(20:32):
And I thought it was a great gift to have
two very different temperaments because it expanded my knowledge of children.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yes, and I think it's a good note for parents
to be careful. I hear parents make narratives for their
kids that I'm not sure even one hundred percent true.
Yet she's got a really she's really sickly like disposition.
She's sick all the time, she catches germs all the time.
I just hear it, and I'm like, don't know if
that's good or bad. Just it is what it is.
(21:02):
Maybe we shouldn't judge it.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
You're better off framing it by your own feeling. I
get triggered by this behavior or that behavior rather than
a character assessment, because it may be a bad day,
it may be a mood, it may be a phase.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Good God face, something.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
That tells the whole story. I'd like to I think
my favorite thing to say to parents is this is
not the end of the story. This is the beginning
of the story.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
This is so helpful Carol. Everyone who's listening. Everything is
a phase, and Carol got me through one of the
hardest when Albie was really hitting a lot of children.
I was up all night so upset because obviously I'm
a people pleaser, and I couldn't believe that I had
the kid on the playground that was hitting other children,
and I'm just apologizing to everyone and so scared no
one's gonna like me or my kid and had to
put on my big girl pants and learn how to
(21:56):
anticipate help him through that.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Stay close, put your hand right there. I'm not going
to let you hit, but I will help you. Tell
me what you need. I want that toy. I'm going
to help you wait, and this is how we can
get it. When you get done with it, will you
please give it to Albie? And then now I'm going
to hold your hand and help you wait. You know
(22:19):
how many times have you seen moms at the park
say things to their kids from the bench and the
kids don't hear it, don't listen when you speak. Make
sure that it has impact. It means follow through. It
means you can't say things like play nights or use
(22:40):
your words. If they could use their words at those times,
they would, they generally have them. But they're at the
moment that they're feeling threatened or fight or flight that
chemical kicks in. They just defend, and they defend by
hitting because they don't know what to do. That's when
(23:01):
you move in and you help. I'm here, I gotcha.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
I can't tell you like being on this other side
of it. Like he's five and a half now, and
the years I spent I'm sticking close by. I'm going
to be putting. I'm putting my hand up because I
won't let you hit someone's body. What do you need?
How can I help you? Would you like this toy?
For years I did this. It was exhausting. I'm not
gonna lie. However, I prepared my son for those years
(23:29):
because now he's got a little sister. And let me
tell you something. She hits him, and he does not.
He holds his hands by his side and he yells
sometimes in her face, like a big guttural scream, and
he says, but I'm not hitting her because I'm not
going to hit her, but I'm gonna yell because I'm
so frustrated that she just hit me. Good for him,
and I'm like, yeah, I worked my ass off for.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
This, that's right, and that's the payoff. That's not See.
It wasn't the end of the story, Sadie.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Nope, I worked my ass off and it literally pays
itself back every day. And I tell him, remember how
we taught you how to use your hands and how
to treat other people's bodies. Now we're teaching this, Verra,
We're teaching this to your sister. It has been such
a blessing. I can't tell you to have a leader
like you and the advice like that to even know
what to do. What should parents look for in a
(24:33):
nursery school?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
In your opinion, I have a bias, But what I
think very clearly is that play is the work of children,
and what children in preschool should be doing is playing
because it's how they make sense of the world. It's
how they work out things in their emotional life. It's
(24:55):
how they make sense of medical trauma. It's how they
make sense of divorce or travel.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Or having a sibling.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yes, absolutely having a sibling. They have a whole bunch
of years to be academic scholars if that's their thing,
or work with their hands and do something wonderful if
it's not their thing. But there's only one time in
life when play can be the priority and be supported.
(25:28):
And when you look around and see how many adults
can't play, you can guess what happened to them too early.
There's no Studies show that there is no advantage to
introducing right and wrong academic work in the preschool years.
(25:49):
A good play based preschool will have all of the
things that they need to get ready for learning. They'll
have the shapes and the toys and the puzzles, and
that thing together that will sustain blocks our preparation for math,
dress up corner as a preparation for life. The puzzles
(26:13):
and manipulative toys are a preparation for reading and writing,
and they are Artists will come from being allowed to
express themselves in all art media without a right way
to do it. My advice would be look for a
(26:33):
place where kids are happy, engaged themselves in my work
with children by going to their homes privately. I've observed
a lot of schools. Now you have to remember I
taught at the same nursery school for over forty years.
I didn't visit a lot of schools, and it's been
(26:53):
eye opening, and some of it has been very depressing.
And in visiting a school where the emphasis was language immersion,
I saw a lot of shutdown kids and kids whose
bodies were you could tell aching to play and if
they said the wrong thing, they were told it was
(27:15):
wrong and had to do it again. Maybe that's very
important a few years from then. But in preschool, how
many kids learn another language by having it be around them,
or having a nanny who speaks it, or having parents
who speak it. There's all kinds of ways to get there.
(27:37):
But honor play in the preschool years would be my advice.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I would like to honor play for like way longer, right.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
So would I. But then life kicks in a lot
of outdoor stuff, a lot of acceptance of different kinds
of kids. How do they handle rambunctious children who maybe
don't have perfect impulse control. Do you let them mesh
up and then correct them or do you take their
(28:09):
hand and get ahead of it. How are the adults
responding to children? How are they responding to the active
wild child? How are they responding to the shy and
introverted child. Everything is relationship based. Are they willing to
make relationships?
Speaker 1 (28:31):
I have seen amazing stuff in my all the tours
I did, but like you said, like watching children who
might have lots of sensory things, kids like my kid
who is like, please don't sing Happy Birthday, you have
to whisper it. I'm gonna fly off the handle if
I near a car honk, or a kid that might
be slightly on the spectrum. There's a kid that I'LBI
(28:52):
grew up with that Carol knows, and she was so
shy and one of those kids that took months of
crying over the separation of her mom. And thank god
the teachers were trained to be able to attach themselves
to her. And now she has blossomed like a flower
like none I've seen. I can't even remember that shy girl.
(29:13):
Not to say that she's misperformer or anything, but it
thank god she was in a place that honored and
met her where she exactly was and just held her
hand and helped her through that.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Remember that this is the first time preschool they're in
community without mom and dad. It has to be a
safe place. It has to be a place that accepts
who they are. And that's the other thing I want
to say, building on that, is make sure the separation
process is gentle. Be weary of a school that says, oh,
(29:47):
drop them off the first day, they'll cry and they'll
get over it. No, that's not what happens. They may
stop crying, but that means they shut down. That doesn't
mean they resolved it. You want to look at separation
in the face, say goodbye to your mommy. If you're sad,
(30:08):
I'll help you. Wow, that's why I'm here. I'm gonna
help you. That's how you make a relationship with this kid.
You're not afraid of their hardest feelings. You're not afraid
if they're sad. You're never gonna say, don't cry. You're
gonna say your feelings are safe with me. I'm gonna
help you.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I'm here speaking of that same topic for those listening
who might be on the precipice of a big transition,
whether it's be starting nursery school or for me, starting kindergarten,
which I honestly think is gonna be way harder for
me than my son. Any advice on preparing how we
can lovingly prepare our children for this once we have
(30:48):
made the choice of where they will be going to school.
What advice do you have for parents on that next journey.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
One of the things I know about the school where
your kids go is that they will help you with that.
They start preparing a few months before they start identifying
the graduates. They start talking about what the changes are
going to be. One of the techniques that I love
(31:20):
to use Katie with preschool kids is to make books.
You take plain white paper, you staple them together, you
make stick figure drawings, and you talk about what's going
to happen. There's a wonderful printed book called Will I
Have a Friend?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I don't know this book writing it on my list.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I don't know the author off hand, but it's easily
googled and ordered. I think it's about preschool, but it's
perfect also for kindergarten because the changes. Am I going
to be safe there? Am I going to have a
friend there? Is it going to be different? First of all,
allow the sad feelings about leaving the school they're going to,
(32:02):
and then reassure them that you're going to be with
them at the beginning, that it's going to be hard,
and that they will be okay because look how well
they did in nursery school. They're going to have the skills,
they're going to make friends. It may feel uncomfortable for
(32:23):
a while, but it's going to be fine, and we're
going to help you at home, because that's what families do,
help each other.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Will I have a Friend? By Miriam Cohen and Lillian Hoban.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yes, wonderful, wonderful book, and I am.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Getting that immediately. I think my biggest thing selfishly asking
I feel that our nursery school has completely prepared him socially.
He's just great with conflict and with other people and groups,
Thank heavens. However, I'm really curious to see because the
(32:58):
drop off is going to be very different. It's like line,
but would they begin?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Are you there at all?
Speaker 1 (33:06):
For yees?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah. I walk him into I walk him to his
classroom door with all the parents, and he has a
bunch of playdates leading up to it with other kids
in his class, where he's met the principal and we've
actually I've cheated a little bit, and I keep hanging
out with other kids who I know who go there
and have gone with their mothers to pick them up
like without me, so he's been on campus.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
That's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I'm like, let's just have it be And he's pumped,
like he's completely excited. But he says, I'm two things
at once. He says, I'm excited and I'm nervous.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I love that, you know. That's there were usedupid book
that I used to read to the kids when I
taught nursery school called double Dip Feelings, And that's another
great one. You can hold two feelings at the same time.
I'm a little bit scared and a little bit excited.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I was thinking, I mean, we're talking about the transition
into preschool, transition into kindergarten. What about other transitions like
mommy's got to go back to work or has a
big job, or someone's going away. How do you help
parents with those kinds of transitions.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
For preschool children, I tell them maybe a week before,
not months before, because they can't handle it. But a
week before. That's when making a book comes in really
handy pictures of an airplane, pictures of a destination, or
we send the book with a reunion. Then mommy's done
(34:47):
and mommy comes back, or we go away, we come back.
That old preschool book, You go Away, You Come Back,
ends with now we're taking a big trip, we will
come back. And so your own book follows that theme
of reunion.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
What's the name of that book? I don't even know.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
You go Away, You Come Back. They have it at
the school, many copies, I think, So you can either
get it or you can borrow it.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
We made it Adam. Of course, my husband's so good
attack but when he booked a job in Budapeshe last year,
and I was so scared because he'd be back and
forth for like eight months. And we made this book
where we printed out like what is hotel looked like
and on a plane, and what Hungarian food looked like,
and then Daddy comes home and then we're going to
go to Budapeste, and then it was like pictures of
what Albi would be doing in Budapeste.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
That's exactly right. That's how you prepare, and there's always
your reunion at the end. And then for the person
at home, if they're staying at home while you go,
it's helpful to cross out the calendar, cross out every
single day, how many more sleeps, And sometimes with preschool,
(35:59):
FaceTime really helps and sometimes it makes it harder, and
it's hard to know if you can take the potential
tears in FaceTime. It's probably helpful for your kids to
see you, to hear that you miss them and that
you will be home soon. As the kid's dad, my
(36:21):
grandchildren's dad travels a lot, and that kind of thing
really helps. Strangely enough, I've heard so many people say
mothers feel horribly guilty about those things and dads don't. Yeah,
but it's often a male thing. Work is important to them,
(36:43):
and it's probably has in some ways equal importance for
whatever reason, and moms are always torn that they're doing
a terrible thing and they're not. It's what they do.
You're modeling for your kids how to have a fulfilled
and creative life. And as long as you have people
(37:05):
sustaining them that you trust and that they feel comfortable with,
they're going to be fine. I made a mistake once
when my kids were little, for all kinds of reasons
that I won't get into, and I took a trip
with my husband that was way too long to leave.
Alexis was twenty one months old. It probably took me
(37:28):
maybe twenty years to repair that one. Carol No and
I wouldn't make that decision today given what I now know.
But I was fallible, I was vulnerable. It seemed important
at the time. Who knows. My in laws took care
of them. They were okay, but that look, when I
(37:52):
got back of who are You? It wasn't was thirty days.
It was way too long for a twenty one month
old to not check in. And remember they didn't have
all the technology back then, so I couldn't do FaceTime
and all that stuff. Anyway, if you tell ask Alexis now,
(38:16):
she'll probably tell you that we've repaired that, but she'll
also tell you how hard it was, and I have
to be willing to hear.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah, yeah, gosh, that's great. Okay, this is what I
think is coming down the pipe, selfishly for me, kids
playing doctors with friends, self exploring their bodies, What the
hell is about to happen to my life and how
do I get through it.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
That's a very normal and natural part of development. There's
a reason that nursery schools have co ed bathrooms so
kids can see each other, identify each other, and enjoy
looking at other genitalia and figuring out what it is.
(39:03):
When they are touching each other and figuring that stuff out.
They're exploring in a natural way. Our society freaks out
and makes it something else. Here. We have a hyper
sexualized society that shows all these images, and yet when
(39:25):
kids do what in a tribe touch would have been natural.
They then we can't understand it and we freak out.
So you can say, don't make it wrong, but if
you're uncomfortable with it, you can don't put it. First
of all, you tell them don't put things inside your
(39:45):
body because it's not safe and it could hurt you.
But don't make them wrong for being curious and for
being interested. You can say, yep, vaginas are great to
look at, but they're private. Right. If a kid is
touching themselves in the thin out in the household, you
(40:06):
can say, I can see that. That feels really good,
and it's also private, So go in your room and
enjoy it well when you come back out. It's not
an outside thing, it's not a family thing. But it's
enjoyable and it feels good, and you can do it
in your room.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
That's so great. There's a girl in our school who
did that a lot. It was really interesting to see
and really cool to watch like her not be shamed
for that. It was obviously like a stress relieving thing.
She was fiddling around, and after a little bit, you know,
they were like, okay, well you could do that when
you get home in your room. It was really interesting
(40:44):
to watch them not make her feel like she was
in trouble or that it was bad.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Very important, very important, because we do all kinds of
things to stimulate kids, just in billboards and pictures and
all kinds of things, and then we make them wrong
for exploring their own bodies. We don't have to do that,
but we can also teach them to be socially acceptable.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
What do you do for kids with sensory stuff? Which
I never even knew was a thing growing up. I'd
never heard of it.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
It's more and more of a thing as they are.
More and more neuro divergent kids are being identified, and
some kids who aren't necessarily neurodiversion also have sensory issues. Fortunately,
there's a wonderful thing called OT and OT can emphasize
(41:42):
sensory integration. So if you think it's a real problem,
if your child is consistently overwhelmed with sensory issues, clothes
or uncomfortable to tags on shirts, bother them. They have
to have socks a certain way. They don't think about
(42:03):
adding OT to your schedule because I've seen it be
incredibly helpful to children, and they're bursting at the seams
these clinics. That's what Alexis does now, so I'm familiar.
They've never been so many kids. I think some of
it may be anxiety from the pandemic. I don't even know,
(42:26):
but there's a tremendous amount of it. So there's things
that you can do to address that. And again it's
something that they will learn to manage. So what I
say to parents is, if your kids need a little
help in this area. I don't know a human being
in this world that gets through this journey of life
(42:47):
without help. Somewhere along the.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Way, I went to OT. I needed help because I
couldn't take one more hair washing of my son. He
wouldn't if you try to shampoo his hair, or brush
his hair or give him a haircut. You have to
wash your kid's head a couple times a week. It's
like I was pushing, and I'm a virgo who loves cleanliness,
(43:10):
and if you wash his hair, brush his hair, it's
like you're killing him with a fork in the eyeball.
It is a horrible experience for me, and I was like,
I got to talk to somebody who can help me.
I mean, there's gonna be a lot more hair washing
in our future and I can't do this. Did they
help you? Oh yeah, I got these awesome head massage
(43:32):
er things that coached him through touch in his head
in a way that he felt okay. We were very communicative.
He was much like it was such so much about
self autonomy, like learning how to wash his own hair,
what was good.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
And also you then reminding him, remember you, I know
you don't like this, it's necessary to do it. Remember
your strategies, what helps you? What do you like? What
don't you like?
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Where would you like?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
I'm going to tell you what. I'm going to pour
water over your head so you can close your eyes,
or do you want to pour it yourself? Get a
little picture and let him do it himself.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
It was wild watching his sister in the time with him,
because she's couldn't give a shit, Like she's looking at
him having and she's like, what's happening? And that's when
I was like, oh, this seems extra, this is something?
Is this is not?
Speaker 2 (44:27):
He's more sensorally sensitive.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
And I knew he had noise sound stuff and anyway,
it ot was great. I love that piece of advice.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
I can't recommend it enough. I think it's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
What's the best preschool tip that you've received?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
To honor the play of children as important work and
don't interrupt it unless it's absolutely necessary. Do what you
can to support it and sustain it.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
What's the best preschool tip that you've given?
Speaker 2 (45:00):
The tip that I would give people most raising preschool
kids is keep a twinkle in your heart, keep a
sense of humor. These stages will pass. They're okay, You're okay, smile,
it's okay.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
If that isn't a tip for life, I don't know
what is. That's how I feel about it. What remains
undone that you've wanted to get done for years? When
it comes to educating preschool children.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
They'll always be children and parents who are struggling. The
work will never be done. To keep doing it till
I no longer walk on this earth.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
This question terrifies me because God willing, I'm your age,
and I get to ask myself this looking back at
raising your own kids, what would you do the same
and what would you change other than that thirty day trip.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
That's for sure. I remember that. I wish I guess
that old saying you can't know what you know till
you know it. I didn't know the things I know now.
I learned so much from the nursery school when my
own children went there, the same school our kids are
going to. That I made it my life's work to
(46:25):
continue that work. I definitely wish I had known a
lot of that stuff earlier. I think I would have
been a much better mom. So I get to be
a better grandma and my kids get to see it,
and that's important too.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Oh I love that. What is Did you even have
a registry when you were pregnant? Was that a thing?
Speaker 2 (46:51):
It was not a thing for me, but I was
recently living in California, I didn't really have I was
away from family. I didn't have a whole support system
then about kids. I didn't but in the but I've
seen it through the years as my grandkids are born.
(47:13):
And the best thing that I can imagine giving children
is books, books, books.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Books, books, And I just wrote down three from this
podcast that I don't know. Thanks to Carol, you need
to give me a list. What advice would you like
to give to children in general as they get closer
to nursery school in kindergarten.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Age, That Mommy will stay with them, That they will
until they are comfortable. That it might be hard, and
it might they might have all kinds of feelings and
it's all going to be okay because you're going to
pick a nursery school, hopefully with teachers that will make
(47:57):
them feel safe and make them feel and normalize that
it's absolutely normal to feel anxious. And also another tip
would be don't tell them the end of the story
before they begin. In other words, don't emphasize soon I
will leave you there, say we're going to start school.
(48:20):
I'm going to be there. Yeah, it'll be okay.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, that's really good. Don't play the end at the beginning, right, Okay.
We always ask our guests this question. Finish this sentence.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Parenthood is the most humbling experience you will ever have.
You can be great at your career, and this will
bring you to your knees.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
It is so humbling. It's a road, and parenting is
so hard, but it is so rewarding if you can
get yourself back up from falling down on your knees.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
It's all about heading back up. It's all about that.
And you're learning. You say to your kids, we're learning
how to be a family of four. We didn't know
we were a family of three. Now we're a family
of four. I'm learning how to be a mom. I'm
doing the best I can. I'm learning.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
This was so helpful. I know all of our listeners
are just like shouting from the rooftops and have such
practical tips, advice and thoughts that they can take with
them from today.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Thank you. Can I give you my email in case
people want to get in please tell us all right,
it's all lowercase provost p r vosg CB at gmail.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Provost CB all lowercase at gmail dot com. I'm so
grateful for the time, and I couldn't have had a
better guest with my children just entering and exiting my
closet as much as they are.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
That means a lot. At this point in my life,
I look back, and that's what means so much. To
have made a difference in one life means who have succeeded.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Oh my goodness, Carol I think and hear you in
my head daily day, and all of the phrases that
you've said, even on this podcast, I hear you daily,
and I'm so grateful to you.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Thank you, Katie.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode.
I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.
Let me know. You can always find me at Katie'scrib
at Shondaland dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of
Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from
Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
(50:52):
you listen to your favorite shows.
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