August 24, 2023 • 52 mins
With this episode being the end of Season 6, we also present this as the final episode of “Katie’s Crib.”
As this chapter draws to a close, Katie and her husband Adam Shapiro share the lessons they have learned from Katie’s journey as the show's host. The two first discuss how Katie hosting the podcast impacted their journeys as parents. They also discuss their personal growth, and how they navigated through the ups and downs of parenting in general. Finally, Katie and Adam provide last insights and gratitude toward listeners who have been with them through this entire ride.
Plus, don't miss two special guest speakers: Katie and Adam’s children, Albee and Vera! Their remarks sum up their growth so far with the show. Tune in for the wrap up of this special series, dedicated to all things parenthood.
Executive Producers: Sandie Bailey, Alex Alcheh, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang & Gabrielle Collins
Producer & Editor: Casby Bias
Associate Producer: Akiya McKnight
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. Okay, Alb, we have to interview Vira now,
but is there any other last things you want to
tell me or Daddy or any of our listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
My fair things being I'm grateful for being a Ninja
and my family.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I love it. Say peace out, love you. Okay, do
you want to say bye.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Bye bye bye bye bye, Babby?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
She said, bye bye. I love you, I love you.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Great job.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Hello everybody, Hello, friends, Mama's Katie's Crib, community caretakers, everyone.
This is what's wild that I'm even about to say this,
but I'm currently about to record the final episode of
Katie's Crib. My goodness, have we all gone through stuff together?
(01:14):
And I'm just so grateful. I'm sitting here just so grateful,
and I am bringing to you a last episode with
my family because who else best to ask how I've
been doing as a mom and everything that I've learned
from Katie's Crib with your support. But Adam, Albi and
(01:34):
Verra right, so they are my guests today. This is
the final episode of season six and the final episode
of Katie's Crib. We've done six seasons. Give it up
for six seasons? Are you hidding? When I started this,
when we would record in Albi's crib nursery room, hence
(01:55):
the title, I had no idea that this would be
my safe space. I had no idea this would be
my mom village. I had no idea this could be
the platform where I could take all of my biggest
worries and heartbreaks and anxieties and joys and triumphs and
failures and find any sort of expert or other mom
(02:17):
who'd been through it to come on and hopefully all
together we could learn how to get through this whole thing,
which we are still doing. But I want you all
to know this is not the end of us. Look,
the podcast can be referred to constantly. I listened back
to the things experts say all the time because I
(02:39):
forget amazing lessons that I learned in seasons one, two, three, four, five, six.
But beyond that, Thank Gosh for social media. Thank Gosh,
who am I good morning? Thank God for social media
because you can always reach me and I can always
reach you, and they are exciting potential Katie's Crib things
in the works just FYI. So I can't really say
(03:01):
what those things are right now, but there are Katie's
Crib future lives that are in the works and potentially happening.
This work is so near and dear to my heart.
So even though this is the final episode of Katie's
Crib is a podcast, we are not final. Does that
(03:23):
make any sense? And I'm making any sense. Let's get
on with it, right because otherwise I'm just gonna sit
here like a blubbering mess. I cry a lot on
this podcast. So, guys, the guest today, as I just explained, yes,
(03:44):
is the love of my life.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
We're back Baby Katie's Crib.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
My husband, my baby daddy, Adam Mark Shapiro, shepis share apps. So, Adam,
how has Katie's Crib affected our journey as parents? Using?
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I mean A big part of the way that it's
affected me, I think is it's so hard to get
to my underwear drawer while you're recording it.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I have deceased.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I've gone a lot of days commando because you're recording
Katie's Crib and I can't get in my closet.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
My clawfice has just like a piece of plastic that
I open up the door. You've seen photos, and I
will post photos at the time of this podcast airing.
But yeah, I'm usually in here pretty early recording and
Adam can't get to his underwear. Do you even remember
this podcast starting? Do you remember when I used Akua
used to come over in Albi's nurse It was his nursery,
(04:50):
then it was the playroom. Now it's his room because
Verra's moved. We've done a lot of musical bedrooms in
this house to make it all work. But yes, she
used to come over, and like Kate Kristen be Well,
came Rebecca Ben and nadi Jen Finnegan pre COVID. We
were recording in a studio. We were having round tables
with a bunch of people.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
My first experiences with Katie's Crib were making the logo
and adding the bottle to the logo.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Oh remember that, I do remember that.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
I bring the graphic design as well, not just fathering
the children.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Is he not just a one stop shop of perfection
this man.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I've just had such a unique experience with Katie's Crib
being the.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Co parent to you.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
No one else in the world gets to listen to
this podcast and be like, oh, I didn't realize she
felt that way about that, or I didn't realize that happened,
or we hadn't had time to talk about that story,
and that was actually new to me. It was almost
like a podcast just for me in a lot of ways,
to listen to and get to hear your insights in
a way that probably most husbands and wives are co
(05:59):
parents don't actually have the time to sit down and
talk about.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yes, But then also, didn't you find it really hard
in the beginning? I remember like I would learn things
from experts about shit we were doing wrong or not
to the best of our ability.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
You'd come streaming out of the closet and be like Adam.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
We need to yeah, or like you would be in
the middle of doing something, like we would learn something
and we would kind of use it against each other,
not in a bad way, but in a good way.
I would put a lot of food out on their plates,
and Adam would be like taliamore the nutrition episode, like
we know we're not supposed to give them, Like this
is overwhelming and causes anxiety. Daniel Siegel comes on and
(06:37):
it's all about rupture and repair and if there was
a rupture and you and Alb got into some sort
of upsetting moment, and then I'm like, you can go
in there and you just have to say, remember when
that happened. I'lbe I'm really sorry about that.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Yeah, And sometimes I'd be like, I appreciate the advice Katie,
and then other times I'd just be like, I don't
want Katie's crib this moment right now. I just want
to yell at them put of my room.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Here's an example where my kids were older than your
son is at that time. But I had a nine
at the time, my daughter and then our son was fourteen,
and we were walking by this crepe store near where
we lived, and my son said he's hungry. I said, oh,
do you want to crape? And he said, yeah, I
love crepe. And then I asked his sister, do you
want to crape? She goes, I'm not hungry. I said fine,
you know, so we went in, he got a crape
(07:23):
and then she said to him, can I have a
taste of your crape? He goes no, And I'm just
fuming inside, like I've done a horrible job teaching him
to be a sharer and he's selfish and all stuff,
and then I exploded. Luckily my wife was home and
she intervenes when all the three of us get home,
and then my system is starting to slowly calm down.
(07:45):
And so his sister and I go for rollerblading out
on the street and she says to me. She goes, Dad,
what was going on? Why did you get so angry?
I said, oh, you know, because he didn't share the
crepe with you. She goes, I can handle myself. What
was happening? I said, oh, I was trying to guess
(08:05):
work through the way. My parents never protected me, so
I was trying to protect you. And since she looks
at me, she goes, this is your own garbage. She goes,
why don't you work this out on your own time?
Speaker 1 (08:15):
And that's parenting the crepes of wrath business.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
That was the rupture and then figuring it out. But
the repair happened when she and I got back from
the rollerblading thing. We had a family meeting and I
apologized to my son for having, you know, flipped my lid,
for just asserting his right to eat his crape by himself.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
The kids are so great, and I think a lot
of our battles have had to do with food, and
I think maybe that's just me projecting because a lot
of my battles have to do with food. But I
think that first or second episode with Talia when she
was talking about.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Nutrition was like I was, that was like a huge.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
Corner that we turned with Albie, and I think it's
huge things out for years because of that.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Oh yeah, this is what I hear in my head
all the time. What and when they eat is up
to me, If they eat is up to them. Parenthood
is so much about fighting the things that have been
pushed into you from your childhood experience, good or bad.
Am I going to do this the same? Am I
going to do this different? And I'm gonna am I
(09:23):
going to learn mostly about yourself and your own shit
in the process. It's been such a gift to have
access to the best experts and people who've been through
it before. Like, for example, we're gonna potty train via
this weekend, and I'm already like, oh, I just go
back and listen to Jamie Gowacky's episode who wrote the book,
(09:46):
Oh crap, And I feel like a pro already.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
Because the signs of readiness quote unquote are so subtle.
I always say between twenty and thirty months is perfect, right,
And the biggest issue you guys is you can certainly
potty train before twenty month. It's going to be a
longer learning curve, but you don't get any attitude. The
kid just takes a little longer to connect the dots.
After thirty six months, your kid goes through a psychological
process called individuation, which means they begin to realize they're
(10:12):
a separate person from you. So yeah, So all I
tell people is I don't really give a ratsas when
you potty chain. I have no investment whatsoever. I don't
care if you could go to college in dapors. Just
know that every month that goes by, you are cementing
a different habit.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Diaper wearing is a habit. That's it.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yeah, we have we've had unprecedented access to all of
the biggest experts in all of the fields of child.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Develop Fucking Harvey Karp came on the inventor of the
snow and the five fucking esses.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah that was pretty great. That was great.
Speaker 8 (10:43):
What snow does, in addition to rocking and shushing all night,
is that it hears when the baby cries and responds
with a little bit more jiggle and shush.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I mean, come on, but it's true.
Speaker 8 (10:57):
We're the most awarded baby product in history for innovation, technology, safety,
and design. It's in three of the leading art museums
around the world.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
We loved it because I was a bad swaddler, and
so this new comes with a really beautifully tight zip
up a bowl sleepsack sort of thing that you put
the baby in, and it is a swat, it's a swaddle,
but I'm not doing it with all this material that
he's getting out of and it's terrible.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Right, our kids slept like a baby.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
That's one thing we didn't fuck up. We fucked up
a lot of stuff, but sleeping we nailed. And honestly,
that is a testament to Adam Shapiro and incredible boundaries.
Because if I was married to somebody else, my kids
would be in the bed. I would have no ability
to say no. And Adam just you really were like, no,
they've been in. They just have a really good relationship
(11:49):
to sleep and putting themselves to sleep, and you really
fought for that as a massive value in the health
of this family of four.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
Yeah, I need I'm not messing down. I don't need
to be getting kicked in my balls every two hours
in the bed by I'll be like.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
That was huge.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
That was huge for us to like really get comfortable
and learn everything there was to know about infants and
toddlers and kids sleeping, because it's a huge part of
the early part of parenting is the sleeping. I can't
tell you how many conversations I had with friends and
(12:30):
like the unbelievable struggles that they've been having with their
kids sleeping and not sleeping and getting in their bed
and wake up in the middle of the night and
all that kind of stuff. And we were able to
have access through Katie's crib to some really amazing information
that we implemented immediately.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
And this was all happening for us in real time too.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Like we started with sleeping and nutrition and that was
that those were two things that we were able to
put in there right away.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And I yeah, I also think it helps your marriage
because there's a middle person who's an expert telling us
what to do, versus one parent struggling with a differing
opinion than another parent, Like I think When Betsy Brown
Braun came on, she wrote the book, You're not the
boss of me, and just tell me what to say.
And Albi was having We were having a lot of
(13:22):
difficulty mitigating the discipline waters with him.
Speaker 9 (13:27):
A consequence needs to be related to what the misstep was,
and more times than not, it will work.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Okay, let's say a kid hits another kid. What's the consequence.
You are at a pool party.
Speaker 9 (13:42):
Okay, hitting is a I mean, that's all. That's one
of those topics. I mean, I'd be asking you lots
of questions. But if we've walked into the party and
I've said, Alb, we're going to this party, there will
be other kids. If there is a problem, you come
and get me and I will help you. We do
not hit. If you need to hit, we will leave. Now,
(14:05):
the other part of this is maybe he doesn't want
to be there and he wants to leave, so maybe he's.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Goes Okay, we're off.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
No, but I understand that's a logical consequence, right correct.
He was hitting kids, he was having tantrums. And we
had just brought Via into the world, and her episode
was so instrumental in terms of like natural consequences. It
was like taking away the object we're in said, are
going to go away. You can't play with her until
(14:35):
you're ready to play with her in a different way.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Yeah, Betsy had like the tiniest little adjustments that you
can make that just made all the difference in the world.
For example, like even before we talked to Betsy, it's
like the you remember when we were talking about Albie
was having trouble sleeping. At one point we had like
a sleep trainer to tell us, oh, he needs to
eat five minutes before you guys are feeding him.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, that was Susie Monkey's of the Healthy Little Sleepers episode.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Yeah, doctor mankys you now, and she came in and
she gave us this five minute adjustment.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I just thought it was so ridiculous to hear.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
And then all of a sudden you started feeding him
five minutes earlier, and it just made this giant difference
in the entire course of the night.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
How do you wean a baby off of nighttime feedings
in order to get a longer chunk stretch of sleep.
Speaker 10 (15:30):
So again, so the first feeding, we want it after midnight.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Because their brains are going to develop if they go
down at seven pm and they sleep till midnight. That's
a great five hour developmental chunk. Okay.
Speaker 10 (15:42):
And then you can do it a couple ways. You
can push the time out. So let's say two nights
in a row, they made it to twelve thirty okay,
tomorrow night, let's try and make it twelve forty five
or one o'clock okay. So you can push it out
that way. You can also reduce how much how much
time wise or that I did, and kind of push
it out that way so they get their stomach is
(16:03):
less full, right, so they're not used to sleeping on
a full stump.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
No one teaches you this shit too. How are you
supposed to fucking know?
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Well, there's a lot of books.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You can listen, there's a lot of books, but oh
my god, who's got time? I literally have talked to
one thousand moms between this podcast and just living our lives,
and I don't think I've ever known any mom that
is actually finished. Yeah. Also, everything's a phase. By the
time you think you've read a book on the thing
your kid is going through, it's changed there. It's just
(16:36):
so hard you're into the next thing. Any particular episodes
or moments that touched or changed you.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
The one that really sticks out is when Kristen Bell
was talking about decks having to suck out the uh
the Clock blog ducked.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
So masitis is a an infection.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
It's a blocked milk duct.
Speaker 11 (16:58):
So look, if your milk does come in, you might
feel like you suck and you have to go to formula.
Speaker 12 (17:03):
Don't beat yourself up.
Speaker 11 (17:04):
If your milk does come in and you have too
much milk like I did, your ducks can get blocked
very easily and you still feel like you suck. Because
what can happen with mestitis is it gets blocked, it
starts to get sore. If you are not so on
top of that, you have to stand under the shower,
you have to put heat packs on it. You have
to open that duct up or get that baby to
see it's so painful. It's pretty painful in the beginning
(17:26):
when it's forming. If it goes to the second stage
and the baby doesn't suck it out, it can get
infected the third stage. After if it gets infected, it
can go to your blood and it's like literally hospital,
you could die. So you have to be very serious
about mestitis, so serious.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I will never forget it dangle feeding feeding, dangle feeding
so that the gravity helps you know your boob. You're
basically on all fours and the baby's breastfeeding on the floor,
so that maybe the gravity will help pull the clog out. Guys,
this shit is horrifying and so hard, and I'm pumping
it on the masaging them, taking diapers, filling them with
(18:02):
hot water, microwaving them for twenty seconds, and then taking
a steaming hot diaper and placing it on my boob
just trying to like heat sometimes gets it out. Massage.
One time, I took a fucking thera gun. I don't
recommend this, please, I'm not a doctor. Don't listen to me. Yeah,
I took a thera gun to my boob. But I
got to the point where I said to Adam, I've
(18:23):
got the worst duct. I'm so scared of getting mestitis.
I'm not gonna make it. The baby's suction is not
hard enough to get it out, the pump isn't working.
It's gonna have to.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Be Yeah, But because Dax did it, I was like,
I'm gonna do it too.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Had you not known that Dax had never done it,
do you think you would have said.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
No, Yeah, I know. I just would have been like,
what are you talking about? This is insane.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
There's gotta be a better way talk about having to
rupture and repair. That would have taken a while for
us to get over the postpartum depression stuff that you
guys talked about. That really helped me too, because there's
in a weird way, I think like when you went
through your postpartum is like maybe when I had the
(19:07):
most energy and most time for parenting, and maybe that
was just the natural yin and yang of the of
a marriage and a relationship that I felt.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Like you were not gone.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Yeah, you were not able to be there, and so
I needed to be there more and make up for
it or whatever. You know, It's just a hard thing
for me to understand having not gone through it. And
then those episodes really put that into perspective that really
helped me out a lot.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I had had other friends that were pregnant during the
pandemic alongside with me, and they had all told me
that once the baby was here, that their anxiety and
fears diminished basically down to zero. And that's what I
was hoping for that I just had to make it
across the finish s line to bringing or here, And
what I slowly over the next four to six weeks
realized after Vera had been here was that my experience
(19:56):
took a one to eighty from my friend's experiences, and
my anxiety and depression got worse instead of better. And
that's when we knew I had to get more help.
And Rebecca again was one of my first texts and
jumped in, giving me a plethora of other moms who
had been diagnosed with postpartum depression and anxiety, who were
(20:17):
on medication or not on medication, or had been doing
different things, so that I had other moms who were
ahead of me that I could talk to and just
ahead of you, like their measures just kicked in a
week hire two weeks, Rebecca being like, here are all
the moms I know that have been diagnosed postcard impression,
who are on zoloft, who are breastfeeding who, And I'm
(20:40):
going to put you in touch with them so you
can ask them a billion questions about their experience and
blah blah blah. And so really you've been our dula
for life. And as you can tell, I think you
can both attest since getting help and via being here,
I am doing much better.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
What do you think at them?
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yes, yes, yeah, I would think that postpartum depression. Anyone
who's listening to this podcast. Not only was Katie's Crib
so instrumental in helping us personally parent and I hope
it's helped you all listening, but I'm really proud of
some of the work that I did and that we
(21:19):
all did together, and it definitely falls in the one
example of that is the postpartum depression episodes, and I
hope that it just provided women with some comfort.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
And I know it has.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
We walk on the street all the time and women
come up to you and they thank you for a
very specific episode. Think it's so funny, but you never
know what they're gonna which episode they're going to bring up,
or what they're going to say they're going through. For
those listening, Katie has this uncanny sort of personality trait
where strangers just open up to her in the most
(21:55):
personal ways. Right off the bat, I'm talking and somebody
next there on the plane is going to be talking
to her about her menstrual cycle before we take off.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
It's because I just asked questions and I don't think
people get asked questions from someone that actually is listening.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, and that's.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
What you do, though I don't ask you questions or
listen to you.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, yeah, when does that happen? That's why I come
on Katie's.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Crib, Yes, because I'll give you way more attention on here.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Ah, this is the best. What else do you want
to talk about?
Speaker 1 (22:31):
The other thing? I was super proud of? So the
postpartum depression anxiety journey sucked, absolutely sucked, and I hope
and was awful and scary and brought me to my
fucking knees and is the worst I've ever felt, the
most afraid I've ever been. I do look back on
(22:53):
it and I don't even feel like that person. And
you all really went through that journey with me of
learning about it, going on metacation, being able to get
through it and get back to work and get back
to enjoying parenting, because good lord, I probably should have
been on medication my entire pregnancy with via in COVID
(23:14):
because I look back and I was such a shell
of a parent. I really was not available during that time.
But because of you all, and because of the podcasts,
and thank god, the access to the doctors and psychiatrists
and therapists that I had access to, and my husband
texting my friends saying that something's up, something's wrong.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Yeah, but that was because we had We had done
the episode in between now Be and Via, so I
kind of knew exactly what was happening when it was happening,
and I immediately called I believe episode threes guts. I
called her immediately and I was like, Katie's struggling, and uh,
(23:55):
you know, tell me.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
What to do here.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Oh, this is why an I'm sure it was the
greatest husband in the entire world, which is what I
tell people and what we learned from like Alissa Berlin,
that not only should there be a birth plan, but
there should be a post birth plan, which is at
about the three week mark to the four week mark.
If your partner, mother, spouse, best friend is looking at
(24:19):
you and they don't recognize who they see, and the
emotional ups and downs that are more the post part
and blues, which are very common, but if that isn't
shifting towards you're just crying all day, all night for
no reason, having anxiety attacks that are disproportionate to what's
going on. And you're not yourself. I think the post
(24:39):
birth plan for your partners and caretakers is to say, Hey,
before I give birth this baby, I just want to
have a conversation with you that if I don't look
like myself at week three or four and I'm not
acting like myself, can you call someone to help me?
Or let's just make a list of therapists numbers to
have on hand.
Speaker 13 (24:57):
That three week mark. If there's still stuff going on,
we've seguyed out of the baby blue and we've segued
into something bigger. Into those PMTs, so pery natal mood
and anxiety disorders pery natals from conception through that first
year of life, and that's usually that time period that
we're looking at. And like we said, mood and anxiety disorders,
it's depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, which I probably see
(25:19):
the most of.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Wow, yeah, what does that look like? What are the
symptoms of that? You know?
Speaker 13 (25:23):
So it's that combination of the obsession, this intrusive thought
that's just sticky and won't go away, and then a
compulsion or a behavior you know, either mental or you know,
something in actuality that we do to alleviate that anxiety.
So we all have intrusive thoughts in our lives, right,
we all have those, you know, weird thoughts of like, gosh,
(25:44):
what would happen if like the hatch on a plane
opens up? Absolutely and you're like, Okay, that was weird.
Someone who struggles with OCD, it's like there's chewing gum
stuck to the end of that thought and they can't
seem to shake it. And the more it lingers, the
more it starts to build up this anxiety.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
What do people do when they see that we've made
it over the three week mark and we're getting worse
or we're not getting any better.
Speaker 13 (26:09):
And that's where your professional help comes in. Psychotherapy is
huge medication when you know the right time in the
right place.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Is awesome, absolutely and a huge.
Speaker 13 (26:19):
Part of the picture. And again, here's one of those
things where there's so much stigma. But unless you're in
your that persons.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Shoes, no judgment, none, because no one.
Speaker 13 (26:29):
Should struggle or suffer when they have a baby.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
That leads you back to like it takes a village episode.
I didn't fully appreciate the value in that, and now,
especially as the kids get a little bit older. I
always felt like when they were like babies, it was
a little bit more manageable. Now it's like there's a
Friday night comes along and I am exhausted in the
(26:53):
week and the kit and then like our friends Jackie
and Jason will invite us over for like a Friday
night dinner with a bunch of kids.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And the village, Thank you God.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
And it's I couldn't do it without that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
I know, you literally hear Hallelujah, like coming from the heavens.
Besides the postpartum depression work, I think the other work
that I'm so proud of on Katie's Crib that I
think has helped us and we haven't even started to
really see how it's going to help us, was when
George Floyd was murdered and was talking a lot to
(27:26):
Shonda Rhymes about how Katie's Crib can be used as
a platform to get moms the information on how to
be an anti racist parent, how do we get better,
how do we give our children a better sense of vocabulary,
how to start with books, how to have conversations about race.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
And that reminds me of like the idea of having
not having one hundred minute conversation, but having one hundred
one minute conversations.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
It's got to be a part of your life.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
And you take any opportunity you can. It's such an
opportunity I see as learning moments when we're at a
let's say we're at lunch, right, Albi's done this before,
and he'll be like when he was little, he'd be like, Mommy,
why is that person skin black? Or something like that,
why does that person have a mole? Before all the
work we did on Katie's Crib about that, I would
have absolutely done what my parents did, which is sh
(28:20):
like we don't talk about like that's rude, sweep it
under the yeah stupid shit like yeah bad. And now
thank god for Beverly Tatum who came on the podcast
and all the oh my god, she wrote the book
why are all the black kids sitting at the same
table in the cafeteria? It's unfucking believable.
Speaker 12 (28:38):
There are things that you can observe and point out
to help your child think critically about those questions and
those conversations, not just one but over time, help them
to ask the question, well, who is missing from this picture?
You know? Why is this happening in this way? And
(28:59):
then what could we do about it?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
I really am so encouraged by everyone saying, or a
lot of people saying, it's okay if you mess up
or you're stumbling at first.
Speaker 12 (29:09):
And that is really something that's important to remember. You
can always come back and say, you know, I was
thinking about that conversation we had yesterday and I said this,
but you know, I've been thinking more about it, and
what I really meant was that, so let me tell
you more about that.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Right, everyone should go back and listen to these episodes
because they should be learned and relearned and heard often
and read those books. But because people have been doing
work on this stuff for a million years, and I
was just my first foray was thankfully on this podcast,
but knowing to say to alb Oh that that person
(29:47):
has black skin, look at this person has this, and
I would do it proudly like wow, I'm really I
get to take advantage of this moment versus be embarrassed
or think that I'm doing something wrong or think that
he's wrong, like he's curious about that people look different.
And and it was all because of Beverly being on
the podcast that I even knew how to respond.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
There's also the idea that that she brought up.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
I think that you know that it's okay to say, oh,
that's a really interesting question. I don't know the answer
to that. Let's maybe you and I go look up
what the answer.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Is to that.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
You know, that's Sasha Sagan's episode.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Oh yeah, yeah, what.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Did they say when you said to them? Is their God? Well,
because I am scared, like, I'm not gonna lie, like
when Albi is old enough to be like, is there one?
Like I still I don't know when I don't know
what I'm going to say?
Speaker 7 (30:36):
Well, but I think that's the answer.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
Is I mean, if this is how you feel.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Obviously, if you're devoutly religious, of.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Course go you know, of course say what you believe.
Speaker 7 (30:44):
But if you're skeptical or I think I don't know,
is a totally acceptable answer.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
There's so much value in a teaching your kid that
it's okay not to know the answer. It's great, and
teaching your kid how to then go about finding out
that answer instead of just making up something that maybe
we were taught when we.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Were kids, or feeling like because I'm the parent, I
should know the answers.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
I know this to make it up.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
And if your kid asks you something about race, something
that's difficult, god, death, sex, anything and you don't know,
rather than make some shit up, it's better for you
to be like, you know what, that's a great question.
I don't know the answer one hundred percent. I'm going
to go find out my answer and I'll come back
to you. And days later, after you've called your village,
(31:33):
after you've read some blurbs online from experts that you
highly respect, after you've listened to episodes of Katie's Crib,
you come back to your kid and you say, hey,
you remember when you asked me this. I actually did
some research and my answer is this. I was not
given a vocabulary to talk about race growing up because
my parents didn't talk about it. Similarly, sex either. They
didn't talk about books that are developmentally appropriate for the age.
(31:57):
Is a great way in to know how to talk
about it, do you know what I mean? And we've
done tons of episodes with links to books of what
you could read on those topics. Think you talking about
sex though? In one hundred minute conversations. I always think
about you and your dad Adam and how much he fucked.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Instead of one hundred minute conversation or one hundred and
one minute conversations, it was just one one minute conversation.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Tell the story about sex. Your parents never talked to
you about sex before this one minute?
Speaker 4 (32:27):
I don't believe so. No, it was literally it wasn't
even a minute. It was just it was a couple
sentences right as we were getting off the exit of
four ninety five dropping me off at my dorm freshman year.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
It was a little late.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Ten years old. You're being dropped off at you to
presee your Maryland. Your dad's driving you from Philadelphia to Maryland.
You're literally pulling off the exit, and what does he say?
Speaker 4 (32:48):
You know, to use protection? Right, Yep, got it done.
Let's talk about what we're doing for lunch.
Speaker 12 (32:55):
Was so on.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That was the extent.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
That is not okay, but tis credit though.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
I I took a lot of supplemental sexual education outside
of school. Wow, Like my synagogue had stuff about AIDS
and health these health stuff. There was a lot of stuff.
I became like a youth AIDS expert.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
On that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I know that, Yes, I knew what was.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Up when our kids are early bloomers, especially our daughter.
We're going to come back on this podcast. It's going
to be called Katie's Crib the teen Years, and Adam
is going to be a fucking disaster area. Like he
looks at the teens walking around La, the girls who
are like twelve years old wearing just it's I always
(33:45):
ask Katie.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
I'm like, is that girl twelve or forty seven? Like
I have no, I don't understand these kids. Wait, Katie, Yes,
this was one that I thought was really instrumental for you.
Oh what remember Sfali?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Oh yeah, huge.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
She said that you get the kid that is going
to teach you the most.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
This was the one book that Kerrie Washington told me
to read, which I read a lot of it. I
actually read a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
You just always said wow, like the kids like Albi does.
It's like the one.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Thing I can't handle is what he does, or the
one thing I don't want to talk about is what
he wants to talk about right now. And she always
says that you get the kid that is going to
teach you the most about life, and maybe they're actually
going to like help you round out the person that
you are.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
It's supposed to bring you to the next level. I mean,
if you want to go conscious of conscious that the
life's lessons are can get you so far, and you're
gifted a child who Albi has completely rocked me human being,
and I'm convinced that this is Vera later for you.
(35:09):
Do you think that's good to be true? Because Albi
doesn't bring you what does to you what he does
to me?
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Yeah, oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
But I think Vera will be the child to get
you to your next level of consciousness in her entire
about nine years old to sixteen.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Yes, I agree. I know already already.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Explain why and why Vera is your greatest challenge.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Alby and I just have such a shorthand for me.
It's so easy to sort of parent him, teach him
and talk him, talk him in circles until he's doing
what he thinks that he's decided, but it's really what
I need him to do, like that kind of stuff
with Albion.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Oh, I am fucking terrible. When I realized that we
had a child that you had to do reverse psychology on,
I was like, I am fucked, Like I cannot, but
that is not where I go instinctually it is not.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
But you also say you, I mean, this is something
that I say to you all the time. You say
I cannot do this. I not not, not as if
it's like a mantra.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Really you can do A good point.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
He's almost six, and I can honestly say at the
time of the recording of this podcast that I am
so proud and excited and interested in the person he
is and who he's becoming.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, But at three I was not well about this
whole thing. I was, what do you think animals that faith?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
I don't know. Not well, I don't know mom is there.
We're just a very different worlds.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Why extrapolate?
Speaker 4 (36:55):
I don't know what you mean by not well with it?
Like it's hard, but I don't like it, doesn't. I
just think that there's such a different emotional component to
being a mom.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
And being a dad, Like.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
It's very easy for me to compartmentalize, like disciplining Albee
and then moving on with my debt.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
It's not like crushing me to my soul.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
It crushes me to my soul. But that might just
be me. Okay, how has this podcast strengthened our relationship
as a couple.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
I think one thing that's done is taken away obstacles.
There's so many things that as a couple we can
be tripping over and causing conflict when it comes to parenting.
But having just this wealth of knowledge coming out of
Katie's Crib has really helped smooth things out. We didn't
hit roadbumps that we probably would have if we hadn't
(37:50):
been listening to these experts.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
One hundred percent. So everybody listening. Tell your friends if
you want to save your relationship, listens to Katie's Crib,
because what these experts say make parenting easier, which makes
being in your relationship easier.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Okay, could you want to bring an Albi first or
Via first? Albi will flip out if Vera goes first.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Okay, let me go get them.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Okay, thanks, baby, my god, I'm so sorry. In advance.
There's no telling what he will say. There is just
no telling. He's quite fair. Oh my, I gotta take
a picture of this. I'm like emotional right now. My
(38:47):
son and my husband are looking through the camera at me,
and they're in the other room in the house. Hi Albi, hi, elmmy,
Hi sweetie, I'm really happy to see you. Can you
tell us how old are you?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Five and three quarters?
Speaker 5 (39:05):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (39:06):
And what is your favorite thing to do? Right now?
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Be a ninja?
Speaker 4 (39:12):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Yeah, do you?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I'm real ninja?
Speaker 1 (39:15):
You are a real ninja? Is that what you want
to be when you grow up?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Already?
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Of course you're all right.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I would team all my headquarters over there.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
At your headquarters over there? I see Albi. Can you
tell our listeners what is it like having me as
a mom?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Very good?
Speaker 1 (39:35):
It is like the best. You're gonna make me cry?
What's your favorite thing to do with me?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Be you a few? Play?
Speaker 1 (39:47):
What do you like to play together?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I really like to play even more with you on
Saturdays and Sundays where I don't have to go to school.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Oh yeah, what is it that we play?
Speaker 2 (39:57):
You played games?
Speaker 1 (39:59):
What kind of game? Ms Land? Oh yeah, we've played
candy Land a lot? Okay, question for you? Do I
yell at you a lot?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yes?
Speaker 8 (40:09):
What I do?
Speaker 13 (40:11):
Not?
Speaker 8 (40:11):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (40:12):
You do?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Do I put you in timeouts a lot?
Speaker 5 (40:16):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
My goodness, that is not true. You haven't been in
a timeout? And how many years.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
You gave me? So many times? You give me some timeouts?
But daddy game is so many when.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
I was free, okay for listeners, Just to clarify, I
really think in total, Albi's been in three to five
timeouts in his entire life, and not one since he
was three, and he's currently five and three quarters. I
love you, honey, Oh, five and three quarders. Yeah, you're
five and three quarters.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
You said free?
Speaker 1 (40:45):
And can you tell me? What's the game we play
at dinner? What are the questions? We go around the
dinner table and ask please, We asked questions like.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
What are you what are you grateful for? Are you
scared about? What are you anything about?
Speaker 1 (41:04):
What was the hardest part of your day? What was
the best part of your day? What's your favorite book
to read?
Speaker 2 (41:10):
My favorite book to read gotta be my Pokemon book.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Yeah, we love Pokemon. We're super into Pokemon. Okay, who's stricter?
Me or Daddy?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Both? Because if you say that, I don't want to
make anyone not because it's like, who do I like more?
Daddy or mommy? I don't want I don't want to
get mad I both.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Oh, I understand why you said that. That makes sense.
You love me and daddy and some days you love
me more and some days you love daddy more, but
you love us both so much like I.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Don't like any I don't love any of you more
any day. Both of you the same every day.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Oh, I understand. So it's like how I love you
and Vera the same the most possible, every day, all day.
That's so kind of you, baby. What else do you
want to say to all the listeners listening?
Speaker 2 (42:10):
The two ninja questions?
Speaker 12 (42:12):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yeah, monster one? And being in ninja?
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Okay, okay? How does it feel being a ninja?
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Very good?
Speaker 4 (42:19):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Okay, that's good? And what did you want me to
ask you about monsters.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
If you're afraid of if?
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Like, are you afraid of monsters? Albie?
Speaker 2 (42:29):
No, I'm alb Shapiro. They were afraid of me.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Oh I like that answer. What's your favorite joke to tell?
Speaker 3 (42:41):
I don't have one?
Speaker 1 (42:42):
I know. Do you remember we used to do those
joke books and you had it memorized backwards and forwards.
We got to pull that back out at night? Who's there?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Chicken?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Chicken?
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Who chicken? Because I'm an animal?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Good one, buddy? Can you tell me are you having
feelings about starting kindergarten?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
No?
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Just tell me about it.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
But I said I'm going to be nervous.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
But you're not nervous. What are you feeling about kindergarten?
What are the feelings you have about it?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
If I had to go to camp where to like
the sleep camp, I'll be nervous because I do not want.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
To sleep the No, you're you do not have to
go to sleep boy camp now or ever. If you
don't want to. We will just continue that conversation as
you get older, and we'll make a decision whatever you
feel comfortable with. Are you excited about kindergarten?
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (43:41):
What are you excited about?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I don't even know what's there.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
We saw one time they had a lego class. They
have a robotics class, the Lego one. God, we dropped
our headphones. Okay, back guys, Okay, I'll be We have
(44:06):
to interview Vera now. But is there any other last
things you want to tell me or Daddy or any
of our listeners.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Fair being, I'm grateful for being a ninja and my family.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
I love it. Say peace out, love you. Okay, Now
let's get Via and she's gonna say two words. You
could be with me.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Okay, but we gotta.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
More questions.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
We'll ask you more questions later, tell them to come
over here.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Go get Via and go see out of mommy in
her office.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, God, now Vera's coming in the cloth and okay,
you know what, I'll put her right here out of
It's all right, Okay. Can I have some room for
Vera to be in the mic?
Speaker 13 (44:49):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (44:50):
No, baby girl, come here, sweetie. Okay, okay, ready, here
we go. Okay, we're here. We're here.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
We're not playing around.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Now, Okay, Vera? Can I ask you a few questions?
Speaker 13 (45:12):
What?
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Okay? What's your name?
Speaker 6 (45:15):
Vera?
Speaker 1 (45:16):
How old are you? Are you too? You see, daddy?
How old are you?
Speaker 5 (45:23):
Very?
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Daddy?
Speaker 1 (45:25):
And Vera?
Speaker 3 (45:26):
Hi? Vera?
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Vera? How old are you too? Yeah? You're too. Can
you tell me what was the hardest part of your
day so far? It's really early in the morning. What
was the hardest part of your day? I twinkle? Okay,
what's the scariest part of your day? Daddy? What do
(45:51):
you want to talk about? You want to sing a song?
Speaker 7 (45:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Oh, she's moving her tongue around because she's real psyched
that she can see her own face. Sing me a song?
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Take how? Why? What?
Speaker 13 (46:12):
What do you.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
A nice ending? Wow?
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Is there any other song you want to sing? No,
who is your best friend? Is it Albie? How am
I doing as a mom?
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Abby?
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Yeah? Albi is going to go to school? Do you
want to go to school with him? You can just
drop him off. You don't have to go to school today.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Go daddy.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
You want to go to daddy?
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Mommy?
Speaker 5 (46:40):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (46:40):
You want mommy mommy? Okay, yeah, we're gonna go play.
Do you want to go to the park? Wait? Can
you tell me something? How am I doing as a mommy?
You want to go to the park. Okay, we're gonna
go to the park. But wait, how am I doing
as a mommy? Okay? Do you want to say bye bye?
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Bye bye?
Speaker 4 (47:02):
Babby?
Speaker 3 (47:03):
She said, bye bye? I love you, I love you.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Great job in wrapping up up key. The first thing
I want to say is a huge takeaway of mine.
(47:27):
I mean, there are so many and Adam, thank you
so much for coming on the podcast say and reminding
us about so much of the stuff we've done that
has helped us, and I hope has helped all of you.
I always here it's not our job to mold them.
We unfold them. And I don't even know if anyone
said that on the podcast. I don't know where I
(47:48):
picked that up, but I feel a great sense of
surrender and release in parenting when I know that it's
not my job to make I'm a person.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
It's already, it's in there already.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Of course, it's our job to teach them to be
kind and to teach them manners, and to teach them
about saving the planet and helping people and being better
than we've all been. Of course, but the pressure is
really that's a lot of pressure, but it makes me
feel like there's less pressure in that it's not my
job to sign them up for a thousand things, to
(48:27):
have them be perfect all the time and say the
right things or wear the right clothes or make sure
that they're like succeeding every single day. It's just our
job to love them and support them for who they are.
And it just makes me feel like I'm gripping the
steering wheel of parenthood far less tightly. And that's been
(48:49):
a massive relief. That's sort of a big overall takeaway
that I've gotten from six seasons of this show. Yeah,
I think I would be even more anxious and even
more controlling, if you can believe it.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
Okay, no, that's huge. That's huge.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
In wrapping up, how do you think I'm doing as
a mom?
Speaker 3 (49:12):
Killing it?
Speaker 8 (49:13):
Do?
Speaker 1 (49:14):
Really?
Speaker 3 (49:15):
Of course this place would fall apart without you. Well,
we both have.
Speaker 4 (49:23):
Our own strengths when it comes to parenting. We both
have our own strong points during the actual course of
a day, and I think that those things are going
to change a lot as the kids get older. But
there are a lot of things that you do that
there's no fucking way I could do that. You create
(49:46):
an amazing community for the kids and of other parents
and moms, and you've been super helpful inside and outside
of Katie's Crib to moms everywhere, and I think that's
also come back to us in a lot of amazing
ways over the past five and a half years. I'm
so glad that we could have this podcast for the
(50:07):
first five years of ALBI, in the first two years
of your's life. It's just it was an amazing thing
for us to go through, and I hope that the
listeners felt the same way about their own journeys and parenting.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
Adam Shapiro, Man, Am I lucky. You're a great.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Dad, You're a great mom. Katie.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
We're doing okay. We're gonna work. This is happening, Adam,
thank you for being my final guest. Obviously, in so
many ways, I couldn't do any of this without you.
Speaker 3 (50:44):
Katie Crap Baby.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
We love you all so much. I'm so thankful to
all of our listeners, all the fans, every mom who
stops me on the street and sobs in my arms.
I've got you. I'm here for you. I will continue
to be here for you. There are some things in
the work, so don't hold your breath. There's exciting stuff coming.
Speaker 4 (51:04):
Katie's Big Girl Bed. Katie's Big Girl Bed could be
the podcast for the children.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
That's hilarious. And now I'm not going to cry. I'm
not going to cry. But this is so momentous.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
Is that the word that's very momentous occasions?
Speaker 3 (51:27):
I can't believe.
Speaker 5 (51:27):
I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Stay tuned for more information. You can always find me
on the socials. I want to hear from you always,
and I just want to say again, from the bottom
of my heart, thank you. Katie's Grim is a production
of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from Shondaland Audio, visit the iheartradi you app, Apple podcasts,
(52:01):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. Okay, Alb, we have to interview Vira now,
but is there any other last things you want to
tell me or Daddy or any of our listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
My fair things being I'm grateful for being a Ninja
and my family.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I love it. Say peace out, love you. Okay, do
you want to say bye.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Bye bye bye bye bye, Babby?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
She said, bye bye. I love you, I love you.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Great job.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Hello everybody, Hello, friends, Mama's Katie's Crib, community caretakers, everyone.
This is what's wild that I'm even about to say this,
but I'm currently about to record the final episode of
Katie's Crib. My goodness, have we all gone through stuff together?
(01:14):
And I'm just so grateful. I'm sitting here just so grateful,
and I am bringing to you a last episode with
my family because who else best to ask how I've
been doing as a mom and everything that I've learned
from Katie's Crib with your support. But Adam, Albi and
(01:34):
Verra right, so they are my guests today. This is
the final episode of season six and the final episode
of Katie's Crib. We've done six seasons. Give it up
for six seasons? Are you hidding? When I started this,
when we would record in Albi's crib nursery room, hence
(01:55):
the title, I had no idea that this would be
my safe space. I had no idea this would be
my mom village. I had no idea this could be
the platform where I could take all of my biggest
worries and heartbreaks and anxieties and joys and triumphs and
failures and find any sort of expert or other mom
(02:17):
who'd been through it to come on and hopefully all
together we could learn how to get through this whole thing,
which we are still doing. But I want you all
to know this is not the end of us. Look,
the podcast can be referred to constantly. I listened back
to the things experts say all the time because I
(02:39):
forget amazing lessons that I learned in seasons one, two, three, four, five, six.
But beyond that, Thank Gosh for social media. Thank Gosh,
who am I good morning? Thank God for social media
because you can always reach me and I can always
reach you, and they are exciting potential Katie's Crib things
in the works just FYI. So I can't really say
(03:01):
what those things are right now, but there are Katie's
Crib future lives that are in the works and potentially happening.
This work is so near and dear to my heart.
So even though this is the final episode of Katie's
Crib is a podcast, we are not final. Does that
(03:23):
make any sense? And I'm making any sense. Let's get
on with it, right because otherwise I'm just gonna sit
here like a blubbering mess. I cry a lot on
this podcast. So, guys, the guest today, as I just explained, yes,
(03:44):
is the love of my life.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
We're back Baby Katie's Crib.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
My husband, my baby daddy, Adam Mark Shapiro, shepis share apps. So, Adam,
how has Katie's Crib affected our journey as parents? Using?
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I mean A big part of the way that it's
affected me, I think is it's so hard to get
to my underwear drawer while you're recording it.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I have deceased.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I've gone a lot of days commando because you're recording
Katie's Crib and I can't get in my closet.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
My clawfice has just like a piece of plastic that
I open up the door. You've seen photos, and I
will post photos at the time of this podcast airing.
But yeah, I'm usually in here pretty early recording and
Adam can't get to his underwear. Do you even remember
this podcast starting? Do you remember when I used Akua
used to come over in Albi's nurse It was his nursery,
(04:50):
then it was the playroom. Now it's his room because
Verra's moved. We've done a lot of musical bedrooms in
this house to make it all work. But yes, she
used to come over, and like Kate Kristen be Well,
came Rebecca Ben and nadi Jen Finnegan pre COVID. We
were recording in a studio. We were having round tables
with a bunch of people.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
My first experiences with Katie's Crib were making the logo
and adding the bottle to the logo.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Oh remember that, I do remember that.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
I bring the graphic design as well, not just fathering
the children.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Is he not just a one stop shop of perfection
this man.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I've just had such a unique experience with Katie's Crib
being the.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Co parent to you.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
No one else in the world gets to listen to
this podcast and be like, oh, I didn't realize she
felt that way about that, or I didn't realize that happened,
or we hadn't had time to talk about that story,
and that was actually new to me. It was almost
like a podcast just for me in a lot of ways,
to listen to and get to hear your insights in
a way that probably most husbands and wives are co
(05:59):
parents don't actually have the time to sit down and
talk about.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yes, But then also, didn't you find it really hard
in the beginning? I remember like I would learn things
from experts about shit we were doing wrong or not
to the best of our ability.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
You'd come streaming out of the closet and be like Adam.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
We need to yeah, or like you would be in
the middle of doing something, like we would learn something
and we would kind of use it against each other,
not in a bad way, but in a good way.
I would put a lot of food out on their plates,
and Adam would be like taliamore the nutrition episode, like
we know we're not supposed to give them, Like this
is overwhelming and causes anxiety. Daniel Siegel comes on and
(06:37):
it's all about rupture and repair and if there was
a rupture and you and Alb got into some sort
of upsetting moment, and then I'm like, you can go
in there and you just have to say, remember when
that happened. I'lbe I'm really sorry about that.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Yeah, And sometimes I'd be like, I appreciate the advice Katie,
and then other times I'd just be like, I don't
want Katie's crib this moment right now. I just want
to yell at them put of my room.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Here's an example where my kids were older than your
son is at that time. But I had a nine
at the time, my daughter and then our son was fourteen,
and we were walking by this crepe store near where
we lived, and my son said he's hungry. I said, oh,
do you want to crape? And he said, yeah, I
love crepe. And then I asked his sister, do you
want to crape? She goes, I'm not hungry. I said fine,
you know, so we went in, he got a crape
(07:23):
and then she said to him, can I have a
taste of your crape? He goes no, And I'm just
fuming inside, like I've done a horrible job teaching him
to be a sharer and he's selfish and all stuff,
and then I exploded. Luckily my wife was home and
she intervenes when all the three of us get home,
and then my system is starting to slowly calm down.
(07:45):
And so his sister and I go for rollerblading out
on the street and she says to me. She goes, Dad,
what was going on? Why did you get so angry?
I said, oh, you know, because he didn't share the
crepe with you. She goes, I can handle myself. What
was happening? I said, oh, I was trying to guess
(08:05):
work through the way. My parents never protected me, so
I was trying to protect you. And since she looks
at me, she goes, this is your own garbage. She goes,
why don't you work this out on your own time?
Speaker 1 (08:15):
And that's parenting the crepes of wrath business.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
That was the rupture and then figuring it out. But
the repair happened when she and I got back from
the rollerblading thing. We had a family meeting and I
apologized to my son for having, you know, flipped my lid,
for just asserting his right to eat his crape by himself.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
The kids are so great, and I think a lot
of our battles have had to do with food, and
I think maybe that's just me projecting because a lot
of my battles have to do with food. But I
think that first or second episode with Talia when she
was talking about.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Nutrition was like I was, that was like a huge.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
Corner that we turned with Albie, and I think it's
huge things out for years because of that.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Oh yeah, this is what I hear in my head
all the time. What and when they eat is up
to me, If they eat is up to them. Parenthood
is so much about fighting the things that have been
pushed into you from your childhood experience, good or bad.
Am I going to do this the same? Am I
going to do this different? And I'm gonna am I
(09:23):
going to learn mostly about yourself and your own shit
in the process. It's been such a gift to have
access to the best experts and people who've been through
it before. Like, for example, we're gonna potty train via
this weekend, and I'm already like, oh, I just go
back and listen to Jamie Gowacky's episode who wrote the book,
(09:46):
Oh crap, And I feel like a pro already.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
Because the signs of readiness quote unquote are so subtle.
I always say between twenty and thirty months is perfect, right,
And the biggest issue you guys is you can certainly
potty train before twenty month. It's going to be a
longer learning curve, but you don't get any attitude. The
kid just takes a little longer to connect the dots.
After thirty six months, your kid goes through a psychological
process called individuation, which means they begin to realize they're
(10:12):
a separate person from you. So yeah, So all I
tell people is I don't really give a ratsas when
you potty chain. I have no investment whatsoever. I don't
care if you could go to college in dapors. Just
know that every month that goes by, you are cementing
a different habit.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Diaper wearing is a habit. That's it.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yeah, we have we've had unprecedented access to all of
the biggest experts in all of the fields of child.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Develop Fucking Harvey Karp came on the inventor of the
snow and the five fucking esses.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah that was pretty great. That was great.
Speaker 8 (10:43):
What snow does, in addition to rocking and shushing all night,
is that it hears when the baby cries and responds
with a little bit more jiggle and shush.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I mean, come on, but it's true.
Speaker 8 (10:57):
We're the most awarded baby product in history for innovation, technology, safety,
and design. It's in three of the leading art museums
around the world.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
We loved it because I was a bad swaddler, and
so this new comes with a really beautifully tight zip
up a bowl sleepsack sort of thing that you put
the baby in, and it is a swat, it's a swaddle,
but I'm not doing it with all this material that
he's getting out of and it's terrible.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Right, our kids slept like a baby.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
That's one thing we didn't fuck up. We fucked up
a lot of stuff, but sleeping we nailed. And honestly,
that is a testament to Adam Shapiro and incredible boundaries.
Because if I was married to somebody else, my kids
would be in the bed. I would have no ability
to say no. And Adam just you really were like, no,
they've been in. They just have a really good relationship
(11:49):
to sleep and putting themselves to sleep, and you really
fought for that as a massive value in the health
of this family of four.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
Yeah, I need I'm not messing down. I don't need
to be getting kicked in my balls every two hours
in the bed by I'll be like.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
That was huge.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
That was huge for us to like really get comfortable
and learn everything there was to know about infants and
toddlers and kids sleeping, because it's a huge part of
the early part of parenting is the sleeping. I can't
tell you how many conversations I had with friends and
(12:30):
like the unbelievable struggles that they've been having with their
kids sleeping and not sleeping and getting in their bed
and wake up in the middle of the night and
all that kind of stuff. And we were able to
have access through Katie's crib to some really amazing information
that we implemented immediately.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
And this was all happening for us in real time too.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Like we started with sleeping and nutrition and that was
that those were two things that we were able to
put in there right away.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
And I yeah, I also think it helps your marriage
because there's a middle person who's an expert telling us
what to do, versus one parent struggling with a differing
opinion than another parent, Like I think When Betsy Brown
Braun came on, she wrote the book, You're not the
boss of me, and just tell me what to say.
And Albi was having We were having a lot of
(13:22):
difficulty mitigating the discipline waters with him.
Speaker 9 (13:27):
A consequence needs to be related to what the misstep was,
and more times than not, it will work.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Okay, let's say a kid hits another kid. What's the consequence.
You are at a pool party.
Speaker 9 (13:42):
Okay, hitting is a I mean, that's all. That's one
of those topics. I mean, I'd be asking you lots
of questions. But if we've walked into the party and
I've said, Alb, we're going to this party, there will
be other kids. If there is a problem, you come
and get me and I will help you. We do
not hit. If you need to hit, we will leave. Now,
(14:05):
the other part of this is maybe he doesn't want
to be there and he wants to leave, so maybe he's.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Goes Okay, we're off.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
No, but I understand that's a logical consequence, right correct.
He was hitting kids, he was having tantrums. And we
had just brought Via into the world, and her episode
was so instrumental in terms of like natural consequences. It
was like taking away the object we're in said, are
going to go away. You can't play with her until
(14:35):
you're ready to play with her in a different way.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Yeah, Betsy had like the tiniest little adjustments that you
can make that just made all the difference in the world.
For example, like even before we talked to Betsy, it's
like the you remember when we were talking about Albie
was having trouble sleeping. At one point we had like
a sleep trainer to tell us, oh, he needs to
eat five minutes before you guys are feeding him.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, that was Susie Monkey's of the Healthy Little Sleepers episode.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Yeah, doctor mankys you now, and she came in and
she gave us this five minute adjustment.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I just thought it was so ridiculous to hear.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
And then all of a sudden you started feeding him
five minutes earlier, and it just made this giant difference
in the entire course of the night.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
How do you wean a baby off of nighttime feedings
in order to get a longer chunk stretch of sleep.
Speaker 10 (15:30):
So again, so the first feeding, we want it after midnight.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Because their brains are going to develop if they go
down at seven pm and they sleep till midnight. That's
a great five hour developmental chunk. Okay.
Speaker 10 (15:42):
And then you can do it a couple ways. You
can push the time out. So let's say two nights
in a row, they made it to twelve thirty okay,
tomorrow night, let's try and make it twelve forty five
or one o'clock okay. So you can push it out
that way. You can also reduce how much how much
time wise or that I did, and kind of push
it out that way so they get their stomach is
(16:03):
less full, right, so they're not used to sleeping on
a full stump.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
No one teaches you this shit too. How are you
supposed to fucking know?
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Well, there's a lot of books.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You can listen, there's a lot of books, but oh
my god, who's got time? I literally have talked to
one thousand moms between this podcast and just living our lives,
and I don't think I've ever known any mom that
is actually finished. Yeah. Also, everything's a phase. By the
time you think you've read a book on the thing
your kid is going through, it's changed there. It's just
(16:36):
so hard you're into the next thing. Any particular episodes
or moments that touched or changed you.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
The one that really sticks out is when Kristen Bell
was talking about decks having to suck out the uh
the Clock blog ducked.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
So masitis is a an infection.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
It's a blocked milk duct.
Speaker 11 (16:58):
So look, if your milk does come in, you might
feel like you suck and you have to go to formula.
Speaker 12 (17:03):
Don't beat yourself up.
Speaker 11 (17:04):
If your milk does come in and you have too
much milk like I did, your ducks can get blocked
very easily and you still feel like you suck. Because
what can happen with mestitis is it gets blocked, it
starts to get sore. If you are not so on
top of that, you have to stand under the shower,
you have to put heat packs on it. You have
to open that duct up or get that baby to
see it's so painful. It's pretty painful in the beginning
(17:26):
when it's forming. If it goes to the second stage
and the baby doesn't suck it out, it can get
infected the third stage. After if it gets infected, it
can go to your blood and it's like literally hospital,
you could die. So you have to be very serious
about mestitis, so serious.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I will never forget it dangle feeding feeding, dangle feeding
so that the gravity helps you know your boob. You're
basically on all fours and the baby's breastfeeding on the floor,
so that maybe the gravity will help pull the clog out. Guys,
this shit is horrifying and so hard, and I'm pumping
it on the masaging them, taking diapers, filling them with
(18:02):
hot water, microwaving them for twenty seconds, and then taking
a steaming hot diaper and placing it on my boob
just trying to like heat sometimes gets it out. Massage.
One time, I took a fucking thera gun. I don't
recommend this, please, I'm not a doctor. Don't listen to me. Yeah,
I took a thera gun to my boob. But I
got to the point where I said to Adam, I've
(18:23):
got the worst duct. I'm so scared of getting mestitis.
I'm not gonna make it. The baby's suction is not
hard enough to get it out, the pump isn't working.
It's gonna have to.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Be Yeah, But because Dax did it, I was like,
I'm gonna do it too.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Had you not known that Dax had never done it,
do you think you would have said.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
No, Yeah, I know. I just would have been like,
what are you talking about? This is insane.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
There's gotta be a better way talk about having to
rupture and repair. That would have taken a while for
us to get over the postpartum depression stuff that you
guys talked about. That really helped me too, because there's
in a weird way, I think like when you went
through your postpartum is like maybe when I had the
(19:07):
most energy and most time for parenting, and maybe that
was just the natural yin and yang of the of
a marriage and a relationship that I felt.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Like you were not gone.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Yeah, you were not able to be there, and so
I needed to be there more and make up for
it or whatever. You know, It's just a hard thing
for me to understand having not gone through it. And
then those episodes really put that into perspective that really
helped me out a lot.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I had had other friends that were pregnant during the
pandemic alongside with me, and they had all told me
that once the baby was here, that their anxiety and
fears diminished basically down to zero. And that's what I
was hoping for that I just had to make it
across the finish s line to bringing or here, And
what I slowly over the next four to six weeks
realized after Vera had been here was that my experience
(19:56):
took a one to eighty from my friend's experiences, and
my anxiety and depression got worse instead of better. And
that's when we knew I had to get more help.
And Rebecca again was one of my first texts and
jumped in, giving me a plethora of other moms who
had been diagnosed with postpartum depression and anxiety, who were
(20:17):
on medication or not on medication, or had been doing
different things, so that I had other moms who were
ahead of me that I could talk to and just
ahead of you, like their measures just kicked in a
week hire two weeks, Rebecca being like, here are all
the moms I know that have been diagnosed postcard impression,
who are on zoloft, who are breastfeeding who, And I'm
(20:40):
going to put you in touch with them so you
can ask them a billion questions about their experience and
blah blah blah. And so really you've been our dula
for life. And as you can tell, I think you
can both attest since getting help and via being here,
I am doing much better.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
What do you think at them?
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yes, yes, yeah, I would think that postpartum depression. Anyone
who's listening to this podcast. Not only was Katie's Crib
so instrumental in helping us personally parent and I hope
it's helped you all listening, but I'm really proud of
some of the work that I did and that we
(21:19):
all did together, and it definitely falls in the one
example of that is the postpartum depression episodes, and I
hope that it just provided women with some comfort.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
And I know it has.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
We walk on the street all the time and women
come up to you and they thank you for a
very specific episode. Think it's so funny, but you never
know what they're gonna which episode they're going to bring up,
or what they're going to say they're going through. For
those listening, Katie has this uncanny sort of personality trait
where strangers just open up to her in the most
(21:55):
personal ways. Right off the bat, I'm talking and somebody
next there on the plane is going to be talking
to her about her menstrual cycle before we take off.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
It's because I just asked questions and I don't think
people get asked questions from someone that actually is listening.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, and that's.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
What you do, though I don't ask you questions or
listen to you.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, yeah, when does that happen? That's why I come
on Katie's.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Crib, Yes, because I'll give you way more attention on here.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Ah, this is the best. What else do you want
to talk about?
Speaker 1 (22:31):
The other thing? I was super proud of? So the
postpartum depression anxiety journey sucked, absolutely sucked, and I hope
and was awful and scary and brought me to my
fucking knees and is the worst I've ever felt, the
most afraid I've ever been. I do look back on
(22:53):
it and I don't even feel like that person. And
you all really went through that journey with me of
learning about it, going on metacation, being able to get
through it and get back to work and get back
to enjoying parenting, because good lord, I probably should have
been on medication my entire pregnancy with via in COVID
(23:14):
because I look back and I was such a shell
of a parent. I really was not available during that time.
But because of you all, and because of the podcasts,
and thank god, the access to the doctors and psychiatrists
and therapists that I had access to, and my husband
texting my friends saying that something's up, something's wrong.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Yeah, but that was because we had We had done
the episode in between now Be and Via, so I
kind of knew exactly what was happening when it was happening,
and I immediately called I believe episode threes guts. I
called her immediately and I was like, Katie's struggling, and uh,
(23:55):
you know, tell me.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
What to do here.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Oh, this is why an I'm sure it was the
greatest husband in the entire world, which is what I
tell people and what we learned from like Alissa Berlin,
that not only should there be a birth plan, but
there should be a post birth plan, which is at
about the three week mark to the four week mark.
If your partner, mother, spouse, best friend is looking at
(24:19):
you and they don't recognize who they see, and the
emotional ups and downs that are more the post part
and blues, which are very common, but if that isn't
shifting towards you're just crying all day, all night for
no reason, having anxiety attacks that are disproportionate to what's
going on. And you're not yourself. I think the post
(24:39):
birth plan for your partners and caretakers is to say, Hey,
before I give birth this baby, I just want to
have a conversation with you that if I don't look
like myself at week three or four and I'm not
acting like myself, can you call someone to help me?
Or let's just make a list of therapists numbers to
have on hand.
Speaker 13 (24:57):
That three week mark. If there's still stuff going on,
we've seguyed out of the baby blue and we've segued
into something bigger. Into those PMTs, so pery natal mood
and anxiety disorders pery natals from conception through that first
year of life, and that's usually that time period that
we're looking at. And like we said, mood and anxiety disorders,
it's depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, which I probably see
(25:19):
the most of.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Wow, yeah, what does that look like? What are the
symptoms of that? You know?
Speaker 13 (25:23):
So it's that combination of the obsession, this intrusive thought
that's just sticky and won't go away, and then a
compulsion or a behavior you know, either mental or you know,
something in actuality that we do to alleviate that anxiety.
So we all have intrusive thoughts in our lives, right,
we all have those, you know, weird thoughts of like, gosh,
(25:44):
what would happen if like the hatch on a plane
opens up? Absolutely and you're like, Okay, that was weird.
Someone who struggles with OCD, it's like there's chewing gum
stuck to the end of that thought and they can't
seem to shake it. And the more it lingers, the
more it starts to build up this anxiety.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
What do people do when they see that we've made
it over the three week mark and we're getting worse
or we're not getting any better.
Speaker 13 (26:09):
And that's where your professional help comes in. Psychotherapy is
huge medication when you know the right time in the
right place.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Is awesome, absolutely and a huge.
Speaker 13 (26:19):
Part of the picture. And again, here's one of those
things where there's so much stigma. But unless you're in
your that persons.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Shoes, no judgment, none, because no one.
Speaker 13 (26:29):
Should struggle or suffer when they have a baby.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
That leads you back to like it takes a village episode.
I didn't fully appreciate the value in that, and now,
especially as the kids get a little bit older. I
always felt like when they were like babies, it was
a little bit more manageable. Now it's like there's a
Friday night comes along and I am exhausted in the
(26:53):
week and the kit and then like our friends Jackie
and Jason will invite us over for like a Friday
night dinner with a bunch of kids.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And the village, Thank you God.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
And it's I couldn't do it without that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
I know, you literally hear Hallelujah, like coming from the heavens.
Besides the postpartum depression work, I think the other work
that I'm so proud of on Katie's Crib that I
think has helped us and we haven't even started to
really see how it's going to help us, was when
George Floyd was murdered and was talking a lot to
(27:26):
Shonda Rhymes about how Katie's Crib can be used as
a platform to get moms the information on how to
be an anti racist parent, how do we get better,
how do we give our children a better sense of vocabulary,
how to start with books, how to have conversations about race.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
And that reminds me of like the idea of having
not having one hundred minute conversation, but having one hundred
one minute conversations.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
It's got to be a part of your life.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
And you take any opportunity you can. It's such an
opportunity I see as learning moments when we're at a
let's say we're at lunch, right, Albi's done this before,
and he'll be like when he was little, he'd be like, Mommy,
why is that person skin black? Or something like that,
why does that person have a mole? Before all the
work we did on Katie's Crib about that, I would
have absolutely done what my parents did, which is sh
(28:20):
like we don't talk about like that's rude, sweep it
under the yeah stupid shit like yeah bad. And now
thank god for Beverly Tatum who came on the podcast
and all the oh my god, she wrote the book
why are all the black kids sitting at the same
table in the cafeteria? It's unfucking believable.
Speaker 12 (28:38):
There are things that you can observe and point out
to help your child think critically about those questions and
those conversations, not just one but over time, help them
to ask the question, well, who is missing from this picture?
You know? Why is this happening in this way? And
(28:59):
then what could we do about it?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
I really am so encouraged by everyone saying, or a
lot of people saying, it's okay if you mess up
or you're stumbling at first.
Speaker 12 (29:09):
And that is really something that's important to remember. You
can always come back and say, you know, I was
thinking about that conversation we had yesterday and I said this,
but you know, I've been thinking more about it, and
what I really meant was that, so let me tell
you more about that.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Right, everyone should go back and listen to these episodes
because they should be learned and relearned and heard often
and read those books. But because people have been doing
work on this stuff for a million years, and I
was just my first foray was thankfully on this podcast,
but knowing to say to alb Oh that that person
(29:47):
has black skin, look at this person has this, and
I would do it proudly like wow, I'm really I
get to take advantage of this moment versus be embarrassed
or think that I'm doing something wrong or think that
he's wrong, like he's curious about that people look different.
And and it was all because of Beverly being on
the podcast that I even knew how to respond.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
There's also the idea that that she brought up.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
I think that you know that it's okay to say, oh,
that's a really interesting question. I don't know the answer
to that. Let's maybe you and I go look up
what the answer.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Is to that.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
You know, that's Sasha Sagan's episode.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Oh yeah, yeah, what.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Did they say when you said to them? Is their God? Well,
because I am scared, like, I'm not gonna lie, like
when Albi is old enough to be like, is there one?
Like I still I don't know when I don't know
what I'm going to say?
Speaker 7 (30:36):
Well, but I think that's the answer.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
Is I mean, if this is how you feel.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Obviously, if you're devoutly religious, of.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Course go you know, of course say what you believe.
Speaker 7 (30:44):
But if you're skeptical or I think I don't know,
is a totally acceptable answer.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
There's so much value in a teaching your kid that
it's okay not to know the answer. It's great, and
teaching your kid how to then go about finding out
that answer instead of just making up something that maybe
we were taught when we.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Were kids, or feeling like because I'm the parent, I
should know the answers.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
I know this to make it up.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
And if your kid asks you something about race, something
that's difficult, god, death, sex, anything and you don't know,
rather than make some shit up, it's better for you
to be like, you know what, that's a great question.
I don't know the answer one hundred percent. I'm going
to go find out my answer and I'll come back
to you. And days later, after you've called your village,
(31:33):
after you've read some blurbs online from experts that you
highly respect, after you've listened to episodes of Katie's Crib,
you come back to your kid and you say, hey,
you remember when you asked me this. I actually did
some research and my answer is this. I was not
given a vocabulary to talk about race growing up because
my parents didn't talk about it. Similarly, sex either. They
didn't talk about books that are developmentally appropriate for the age.
(31:57):
Is a great way in to know how to talk
about it, do you know what I mean? And we've
done tons of episodes with links to books of what
you could read on those topics. Think you talking about
sex though? In one hundred minute conversations. I always think
about you and your dad Adam and how much he fucked.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Instead of one hundred minute conversation or one hundred and
one minute conversations, it was just one one minute conversation.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Tell the story about sex. Your parents never talked to
you about sex before this one minute?
Speaker 4 (32:27):
I don't believe so. No, it was literally it wasn't
even a minute. It was just it was a couple
sentences right as we were getting off the exit of
four ninety five dropping me off at my dorm freshman year.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
It was a little late.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Ten years old. You're being dropped off at you to
presee your Maryland. Your dad's driving you from Philadelphia to Maryland.
You're literally pulling off the exit, and what does he say?
Speaker 4 (32:48):
You know, to use protection? Right, Yep, got it done.
Let's talk about what we're doing for lunch.
Speaker 12 (32:55):
Was so on.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That was the extent.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
That is not okay, but tis credit though.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
I I took a lot of supplemental sexual education outside
of school. Wow, Like my synagogue had stuff about AIDS
and health these health stuff. There was a lot of stuff.
I became like a youth AIDS expert.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
On that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I know that, Yes, I knew what was.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Up when our kids are early bloomers, especially our daughter.
We're going to come back on this podcast. It's going
to be called Katie's Crib the teen Years, and Adam
is going to be a fucking disaster area. Like he
looks at the teens walking around La, the girls who
are like twelve years old wearing just it's I always
(33:45):
ask Katie.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
I'm like, is that girl twelve or forty seven? Like
I have no, I don't understand these kids. Wait, Katie, Yes,
this was one that I thought was really instrumental for you.
Oh what remember Sfali?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Oh yeah, huge.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
She said that you get the kid that is going
to teach you the most.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
This was the one book that Kerrie Washington told me
to read, which I read a lot of it. I
actually read a lot of it.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
You just always said wow, like the kids like Albi does.
It's like the one.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Thing I can't handle is what he does, or the
one thing I don't want to talk about is what
he wants to talk about right now. And she always
says that you get the kid that is going to
teach you the most about life, and maybe they're actually
going to like help you round out the person that
you are.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
It's supposed to bring you to the next level. I mean,
if you want to go conscious of conscious that the
life's lessons are can get you so far, and you're
gifted a child who Albi has completely rocked me human being,
and I'm convinced that this is Vera later for you.
(35:09):
Do you think that's good to be true? Because Albi
doesn't bring you what does to you what he does
to me?
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Yeah, oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
But I think Vera will be the child to get
you to your next level of consciousness in her entire
about nine years old to sixteen.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Yes, I agree. I know already already.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Explain why and why Vera is your greatest challenge.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Alby and I just have such a shorthand for me.
It's so easy to sort of parent him, teach him
and talk him, talk him in circles until he's doing
what he thinks that he's decided, but it's really what
I need him to do, like that kind of stuff
with Albion.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Oh, I am fucking terrible. When I realized that we
had a child that you had to do reverse psychology on,
I was like, I am fucked, Like I cannot, but
that is not where I go instinctually it is not.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
But you also say you, I mean, this is something
that I say to you all the time. You say
I cannot do this. I not not, not as if
it's like a mantra.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Really you can do A good point.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
He's almost six, and I can honestly say at the
time of the recording of this podcast that I am
so proud and excited and interested in the person he
is and who he's becoming.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, But at three I was not well about this
whole thing. I was, what do you think animals that faith?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
I don't know. Not well, I don't know mom is there.
We're just a very different worlds.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Why extrapolate?
Speaker 4 (36:55):
I don't know what you mean by not well with it?
Like it's hard, but I don't like it, doesn't. I
just think that there's such a different emotional component to
being a mom.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
And being a dad, Like.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
It's very easy for me to compartmentalize, like disciplining Albee
and then moving on with my debt.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
It's not like crushing me to my soul.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
It crushes me to my soul. But that might just
be me. Okay, how has this podcast strengthened our relationship
as a couple.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
I think one thing that's done is taken away obstacles.
There's so many things that as a couple we can
be tripping over and causing conflict when it comes to parenting.
But having just this wealth of knowledge coming out of
Katie's Crib has really helped smooth things out. We didn't
hit roadbumps that we probably would have if we hadn't
(37:50):
been listening to these experts.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
One hundred percent. So everybody listening. Tell your friends if
you want to save your relationship, listens to Katie's Crib,
because what these experts say make parenting easier, which makes
being in your relationship easier.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Okay, could you want to bring an Albi first or
Via first? Albi will flip out if Vera goes first.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Okay, let me go get them.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Okay, thanks, baby, my god, I'm so sorry. In advance.
There's no telling what he will say. There is just
no telling. He's quite fair. Oh my, I gotta take
a picture of this. I'm like emotional right now. My
(38:47):
son and my husband are looking through the camera at me,
and they're in the other room in the house. Hi Albi, hi, elmmy,
Hi sweetie, I'm really happy to see you. Can you
tell us how old are you?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Five and three quarters?
Speaker 5 (39:05):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (39:06):
And what is your favorite thing to do? Right now?
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Be a ninja?
Speaker 4 (39:12):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Yeah, do you?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I'm real ninja?
Speaker 1 (39:15):
You are a real ninja? Is that what you want
to be when you grow up?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Already?
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Of course you're all right.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I would team all my headquarters over there.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
At your headquarters over there? I see Albi. Can you
tell our listeners what is it like having me as
a mom?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Very good?
Speaker 1 (39:35):
It is like the best. You're gonna make me cry?
What's your favorite thing to do with me?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Be you a few? Play?
Speaker 1 (39:47):
What do you like to play together?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I really like to play even more with you on
Saturdays and Sundays where I don't have to go to school.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Oh yeah, what is it that we play?
Speaker 2 (39:57):
You played games?
Speaker 1 (39:59):
What kind of game? Ms Land? Oh yeah, we've played
candy Land a lot? Okay, question for you? Do I
yell at you a lot?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yes?
Speaker 8 (40:09):
What I do?
Speaker 13 (40:11):
Not?
Speaker 8 (40:11):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (40:12):
You do?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Do I put you in timeouts a lot?
Speaker 5 (40:16):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
My goodness, that is not true. You haven't been in
a timeout? And how many years.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
You gave me? So many times? You give me some timeouts?
But daddy game is so many when.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
I was free, okay for listeners, Just to clarify, I
really think in total, Albi's been in three to five
timeouts in his entire life, and not one since he
was three, and he's currently five and three quarters. I
love you, honey, Oh, five and three quarders. Yeah, you're
five and three quarters.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
You said free?
Speaker 1 (40:45):
And can you tell me? What's the game we play
at dinner? What are the questions? We go around the
dinner table and ask please, We asked questions like.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
What are you what are you grateful for? Are you
scared about? What are you anything about?
Speaker 1 (41:04):
What was the hardest part of your day? What was
the best part of your day? What's your favorite book
to read?
Speaker 2 (41:10):
My favorite book to read gotta be my Pokemon book.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Yeah, we love Pokemon. We're super into Pokemon. Okay, who's stricter?
Me or Daddy?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Both? Because if you say that, I don't want to
make anyone not because it's like, who do I like more?
Daddy or mommy? I don't want I don't want to
get mad I both.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Oh, I understand why you said that. That makes sense.
You love me and daddy and some days you love
me more and some days you love daddy more, but
you love us both so much like I.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Don't like any I don't love any of you more
any day. Both of you the same every day.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Oh, I understand. So it's like how I love you
and Vera the same the most possible, every day, all day.
That's so kind of you, baby. What else do you
want to say to all the listeners listening?
Speaker 2 (42:10):
The two ninja questions?
Speaker 12 (42:12):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yeah, monster one? And being in ninja?
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Okay, okay? How does it feel being a ninja?
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Very good?
Speaker 4 (42:19):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Okay, that's good? And what did you want me to
ask you about monsters.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
If you're afraid of if?
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Like, are you afraid of monsters? Albie?
Speaker 2 (42:29):
No, I'm alb Shapiro. They were afraid of me.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Oh I like that answer. What's your favorite joke to tell?
Speaker 3 (42:41):
I don't have one?
Speaker 1 (42:42):
I know. Do you remember we used to do those
joke books and you had it memorized backwards and forwards.
We got to pull that back out at night? Who's there?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Chicken?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Chicken?
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Who chicken? Because I'm an animal?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Good one, buddy? Can you tell me are you having
feelings about starting kindergarten?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
No?
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Just tell me about it.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
But I said I'm going to be nervous.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
But you're not nervous. What are you feeling about kindergarten?
What are the feelings you have about it?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
If I had to go to camp where to like
the sleep camp, I'll be nervous because I do not want.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
To sleep the No, you're you do not have to
go to sleep boy camp now or ever. If you
don't want to. We will just continue that conversation as
you get older, and we'll make a decision whatever you
feel comfortable with. Are you excited about kindergarten?
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (43:41):
What are you excited about?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I don't even know what's there.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
We saw one time they had a lego class. They
have a robotics class, the Lego one. God, we dropped
our headphones. Okay, back guys, Okay, I'll be We have
(44:06):
to interview Vera now. But is there any other last
things you want to tell me or Daddy or any
of our listeners.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Fair being, I'm grateful for being a ninja and my family.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
I love it. Say peace out, love you. Okay, Now
let's get Via and she's gonna say two words. You
could be with me.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Okay, but we gotta.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
More questions.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
We'll ask you more questions later, tell them to come
over here.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Go get Via and go see out of mommy in
her office.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, God, now Vera's coming in the cloth and okay,
you know what, I'll put her right here out of
It's all right, Okay. Can I have some room for
Vera to be in the mic?
Speaker 13 (44:49):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (44:50):
No, baby girl, come here, sweetie. Okay, okay, ready, here
we go. Okay, we're here. We're here.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
We're not playing around.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Now, Okay, Vera? Can I ask you a few questions?
Speaker 13 (45:12):
What?
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Okay? What's your name?
Speaker 6 (45:15):
Vera?
Speaker 1 (45:16):
How old are you? Are you too? You see, daddy?
How old are you?
Speaker 5 (45:23):
Very?
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Daddy?
Speaker 1 (45:25):
And Vera?
Speaker 3 (45:26):
Hi? Vera?
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Vera? How old are you too? Yeah? You're too. Can
you tell me what was the hardest part of your
day so far? It's really early in the morning. What
was the hardest part of your day? I twinkle? Okay,
what's the scariest part of your day? Daddy? What do
(45:51):
you want to talk about? You want to sing a song?
Speaker 7 (45:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Oh, she's moving her tongue around because she's real psyched
that she can see her own face. Sing me a song?
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Take how? Why? What?
Speaker 13 (46:12):
What do you.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
A nice ending? Wow?
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Is there any other song you want to sing? No,
who is your best friend? Is it Albie? How am
I doing as a mom?
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Abby?
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Yeah? Albi is going to go to school? Do you
want to go to school with him? You can just
drop him off. You don't have to go to school today.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Go daddy.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
You want to go to daddy?
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Mommy?
Speaker 5 (46:40):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (46:40):
You want mommy mommy? Okay, yeah, we're gonna go play.
Do you want to go to the park? Wait? Can
you tell me something? How am I doing as a mommy?
You want to go to the park. Okay, we're gonna
go to the park. But wait, how am I doing
as a mommy? Okay? Do you want to say bye bye?
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Bye bye?
Speaker 4 (47:02):
Babby?
Speaker 3 (47:03):
She said, bye bye? I love you, I love you.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Great job in wrapping up up key. The first thing
I want to say is a huge takeaway of mine.
(47:27):
I mean, there are so many and Adam, thank you
so much for coming on the podcast say and reminding
us about so much of the stuff we've done that
has helped us, and I hope has helped all of you.
I always here it's not our job to mold them.
We unfold them. And I don't even know if anyone
said that on the podcast. I don't know where I
(47:48):
picked that up, but I feel a great sense of
surrender and release in parenting when I know that it's
not my job to make I'm a person.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
It's already, it's in there already.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Of course, it's our job to teach them to be
kind and to teach them manners, and to teach them
about saving the planet and helping people and being better
than we've all been. Of course, but the pressure is
really that's a lot of pressure, but it makes me
feel like there's less pressure in that it's not my
job to sign them up for a thousand things, to
(48:27):
have them be perfect all the time and say the
right things or wear the right clothes or make sure
that they're like succeeding every single day. It's just our
job to love them and support them for who they are.
And it just makes me feel like I'm gripping the
steering wheel of parenthood far less tightly. And that's been
(48:49):
a massive relief. That's sort of a big overall takeaway
that I've gotten from six seasons of this show. Yeah,
I think I would be even more anxious and even
more controlling, if you can believe it.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
Okay, no, that's huge. That's huge.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
In wrapping up, how do you think I'm doing as
a mom?
Speaker 3 (49:12):
Killing it?
Speaker 8 (49:13):
Do?
Speaker 1 (49:14):
Really?
Speaker 3 (49:15):
Of course this place would fall apart without you. Well,
we both have.
Speaker 4 (49:23):
Our own strengths when it comes to parenting. We both
have our own strong points during the actual course of
a day, and I think that those things are going
to change a lot as the kids get older. But
there are a lot of things that you do that
there's no fucking way I could do that. You create
(49:46):
an amazing community for the kids and of other parents
and moms, and you've been super helpful inside and outside
of Katie's Crib to moms everywhere, and I think that's
also come back to us in a lot of amazing
ways over the past five and a half years. I'm
so glad that we could have this podcast for the
(50:07):
first five years of ALBI, in the first two years
of your's life. It's just it was an amazing thing
for us to go through, and I hope that the
listeners felt the same way about their own journeys and parenting.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
Adam Shapiro, Man, Am I lucky. You're a great.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Dad, You're a great mom. Katie.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
We're doing okay. We're gonna work. This is happening, Adam,
thank you for being my final guest. Obviously, in so
many ways, I couldn't do any of this without you.
Speaker 3 (50:44):
Katie Crap Baby.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
We love you all so much. I'm so thankful to
all of our listeners, all the fans, every mom who
stops me on the street and sobs in my arms.
I've got you. I'm here for you. I will continue
to be here for you. There are some things in
the work, so don't hold your breath. There's exciting stuff coming.
Speaker 4 (51:04):
Katie's Big Girl Bed. Katie's Big Girl Bed could be
the podcast for the children.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
That's hilarious. And now I'm not going to cry. I'm
not going to cry. But this is so momentous.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
Is that the word that's very momentous occasions?
Speaker 3 (51:27):
I can't believe.
Speaker 5 (51:27):
I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Stay tuned for more information. You can always find me
on the socials. I want to hear from you always,
and I just want to say again, from the bottom
of my heart, thank you. Katie's Grim is a production
of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from Shondaland Audio, visit the iheartradi you app, Apple podcasts,
(52:01):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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