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December 18, 2023 50 mins

If you enjoyed part one of the conversation with Holly Marie Combs, you’re going to love part two! What really happened on the set of “Charmed?” Did Shannen direct her own death scene without knowing it?  And how did Holly feel when Shannen left the very show she launched and loved? #thetruthmatters

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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Let's be Clear with Shannon Doherty. Hi everyone,
This is Let's be Clear with Shannon Doherty, Part two
of my interview with Hollywood combs. Hi Hall, so good.
We had to do it again. It's kind of like
where we left off. We were, you know, talking about

Charmed and what transpired and what happened. And you know,
I don't know if the statement was made in her
book or if it was on like her press tour.
I don't really know because I didn't at that point
in time pay all that close attention to it. And
I know that people are really interested in what actually happened.

It's it's a question that you and I get. I
think when we do the conventions and we go on
these panels, people have asked us and I sort of
would say, oh, it's wait for the podcast, wait for
the podcast. So now it's here, let's be clear. Let's
be clear. You know, I just want to make sure
that everybody knows that there's zero hate here. The past

is definitely done and over with, and it's not even
like we really talk about this at all. It's I
think this is coming up because it's a question that
I get asked on an absolute regular basis. At every
convention that we do, every single you know fan that
I run into on the streets always asked me why

did you quit? Why did you quit? Why did you quit?
And the narrative that I quit was assigned to me
by other people, wasn't assigned to me. I didn't assign
it to myself. And I think I'm just at that
point in my life where I don't want to keep
lying about something, and I don't want to keep lying

about something that meant the absolute world to me, something
that I went to I loved doing. I loved going
to that job, I loved the people that I worked with.
And I had a father who was extremely sick and
had a lot of medical needs, and this show really

helped me to provide for an entire family. So when
my livelihood got taken away, it was extremely hard. I
still went with the narrative and the story that everybody
wanted me to go with. But now at my age
and dealing with stage four cancer, I just don't feel
like I have to keep telling a lie. I feel

like it's okay to be honest. So one of the
biggest sort of myths out there was that I quit well,
that story has a backstory and then another story. Yeah,
it has a lot of backstories, which we'll go into,
but just to you know, sort of address that. I

don't think that there's anybody in their right mind that
would quit a hit show that's paying them a good
amount of money that they actually really enjoy working on,
which was my deal. Like I enjoyed it. Yeah you did.
You were very dedicated. You like to show up for
stunt rehearsals a day early and do your wardrobe a
week early. Was really annoying. Well, I mean Eilish was

like so good prepared. You were overly prepared. I was.
I liked to be prepared. But sort of during that
time period after the first season, when everybody sort of
got acclimated, I think things obviously started to change and
the show got a lot more attention and us girls
got individual attention, and that may have caused some Yeah

I heard that. I mean we've talked about that, but
I never knew that because I wasn't the one doing
the maximum covers. I think I did one terrible cover
and they gave me very big boobs and I was like,
who is she they did? I remember that cover? It
was Stuff? Was it? Stuff Magazine? They made me like
six feet tall and gave me really big boobs, and

I was like, Okay, that wasn't the picture I approved.
By the way, I had final approval on the photo
on the cover, and it was I mean, it was
a version of the photo I approved. But that was
the only like naked naked maxim type photo shoot I did.
And I remember saying to my publicist at the time.

I was like, shouldn't I take like a couple of weeks. Well,
I was in my twenties maybe three, to like work
out and look good for this, And he was like, honey, no,
they airbrushed gizell. They don't even care what you look like.
And I was like, ouch. By the way, Stuff magazine
the name, it sounds like a porno magazine. Yeah, well

look like it. But actually the cover shot was the
one I was most comfortable with because I just wore
my g I wasn't wearing like red lingerie and I
was topless, but my hair was covering my boob. So
that was the one. I was like, cool, I can
swing this. I remember this dis cover. It's very sexy. Yeah,
I thought so. I mean, if I was six foot

in head double d's. Yeah, don't look it up. Oh
my god, woman, let some things die. Okay, so they
weren't double d's. They were like seas but still, hey,
you never know, I could go short. Those aren't those
are big? Yeah? Yeah, it's too big for my flag

foot too. Look at your abs. Yeah, I got out
and they got longer. That's why I mean, like I
got long, I got tall. Yeah, you know, they definitely
stretched the torso they did because I have no torso.
I mean, you look good though I was, you know,
the the real picture was fine too, though, Yeah, I

think I did. Like FHM and Lingerie and then Maxim
it was you guys were on the circuit. We were,
but it was more of like all the other you know, yes,
those magazines where they served a purpose back then, but
it was like the people magazines or the individual TV
guide covers or the this or the that or the

you know. In my case, I guess like my my
contract was that I got you know, I was the
highest paid because I was the one that the network
you know hired and and and uh sort of green
light the show based on. So it was something my
attorney negotiated in there and that caused you know, riffed

once once Alyssa found out that was definitelyentually Yeah, and
Smelling did some backdoor deals. I don't know why it
was privy to all the backdoor deals, but people tell
me everything. I guess you do have a plethora of
knowledge that like didn't even really pertain to you. It

was kind of wild. Yeah, and I keep every text
an email, so truth be told. Let's be clear. Yeah,
I do too. Oh, I know this, I do know
about you. Yeah, some people don't love that about me,
but m h, that's all right. I just like keeping
all that stuff because I think it's really good like reference.

If somebody is saying something that transpired that didn't transpire,
then I can go back in the email and be like, well,
actually here's the email. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's like
the attorney side of me coming out. M h. Right.
So there were like all sorts of little jealousies. You
went to the hospital, and that was a little bit

of an issue, you know, I asked, uh, it was funny.
I don't know why they put me in a room
with Jonathan Levin of all people. It wasn't Jim, wasn't Aarin. Well,
Aaron had kind of was having own health problems at
that point, but it wasn't Jim, and it wasn't Duke,
who were by my bedside when I woke up from surgery.

So it was interesting that when I had a problem
after this all transpired and I wanted to discuss leaving
the show and all my reasons why they put me
in a room with Jonathan Levin, which I don't know
that I had seen since we went to network, and
you had told me about your background with him, which
is varied and interesting, and he obviously has a very

fond spot, shall we say, for you, And I don't
know why they chose him to do this meeting, but
I can tell you that during the meeting where I
said this is not the show I signed on to do,
I hear that you're looking for other people. And it's
not about the list of names. It's about this was
not a show that I wanted to do without Shannon.

She didn't want to do it without me. Therefore I
don't want to do it without her, and that should
be fairly clear. And he hadars in his eyes already
because he could see I was getting upset. As you
can hear me getting upset, And I said, why would
you hire her again just to fire her? And he said,
we didn't mean to, And he said, but we've been

backed into this corner. He said, you know, we're basically
in a position where it's one or the other. We
were told that it's her me and Alyssa has threatened
to sue us for a hostile workplace environment, which because
she went to the therapist or the mediator or the
corporate mediator, whatever the heck his title is, she built

a case for herself where she was documenting every time
she felt uncomfortable on set and for whatever reason, whereas
you and I refused to speak to him. So that's
where the deck was stacked. I always think that, like
when somebody does that, you you know, I would as
a producer call them on it. And I know that
that's a huge risk and it was definitely one that

they didn't want to take. And what's funny is that
by today's standard, it wouldn't even qualify because there were
no onset, you know, brawls. There was no either even
like harsh words exchanged. It was all behind the scenes,
it was all in the trailer. It was nothing that
anybody or any of our guest stars ever noticed or noted.

And you know, there's not a director that would not
work with you. Again, there's not any one of our
crew members that did not have a great time working
with you. So by today's standards, it wouldn't fucking fly, right,
And I don't think being laid as a teenager on
a set called nine O two one zero would fly
for being fired either. Like it's just it's just doesn't

make any sense anymore. There are people that actually behave
badly and get away with it, and there are men
that you know, abuse people, throw things, screaming fits and
get away with it. Like I don't think people understand
that that never happen here unless you were there. No
one understands that. Yeah, I mean, I you know, listen,

I lived a you know, a year after that, sort
of replaying everything in my brain and really like trying
to find those moments where we and I couldn't find them,
like there was no like we never had it out,

like we never not privately or public public. Right, I
don't ever remember being mean to her on set. I actually,
like I remember an episode that I directed where you know,
she did something on the Christmas break and they asked
me to work around some things with her, and I

had no problem with it, Like I couldn't have been
more kind and understanding, And the only thing was that
it was. There were like a couple of couple of
things that sort of stood out to me. One was,
you know, her mom had that like safe searching thing
or whatever, and she like showed up one day and said, oh, well,

you know, I designed your website and it's unsafe searching now,
and I was like, can you please take it down?
Like my father doesn't feel well, he's not doing well,
and I sort of want to give this to him
as a project so he has something to occupy his
time with. And I mean, I have no idea if

that was a factor or not, but it happened. They
you know, did yours as well, but you allowed it,
and because why wouldn't you didn't have a dad that
needed something to do. He's floating around out there, right,
And then the whole you know, paid discrepancy, even though
it was so incredibly minor not even worth a conversation really,

But once that all came out and her and I
had the conversation, and my attorneys went to Spelling and said,
this is not okay. You can't be doing you know,
side deals to someone. It was it was me that
told you that there was another deal, So why wasn't
I fired? Right? Yeah, And I think you know previously,

you know, you had discussed with them that the tension
was getting high and that you didn't want to replay
of what had happened before, So you were preemptively trying
to work it out. And I also wonder in the
back of their minds if they didn't choose you because
they knew they had done it before and nine O

two one zero went on. I almost wonder if they
were okay with the publicity, if they were okay with
we've done this before, it worked out, fine, we can
do it again. I think that's a valid, valid point.

I think back then the male mentality was to pit
the women against each other anyway in order to keep
them controlled. Yeah. No, they didn't want us working together.
They wanted to keep us segregated and separated and not
negotiating together because then you have a friends situation where
everybody's getting paid the same amount, and that's not what
they wanted to do, you know, like I said before,

I ended up doing the most hours for the least
pay because I just didn't ask for raises. I didn't
want more to be taken out of the budget. I
didn't want to have no money for guest stars like
I was producing. Then. I knew that we had to
get rid of Brian for some episodes to afford Nick Lache.
But at the time when I had a three month

old baby and I'm doing more hours than anyone and
people are being let out for baseball games, you know,
I sat in my trailer and I was like, and
I said to Jim, and I said to Duke. I
was like, I don't need to do this. I don't
want to do this. This is a second time. I
don't want to do this, and I just I don't
know how you expect me to pick up all the
pieces and go home to a three month old baby

and not be ragged like. It just wasn't fair. It
just wasn't fair. Yeah, because when I was gone, Once
I was gone, it really did fall completely on your shoulders,
because at least while I was there, it was on
my shoulders. And I would share it with you because
we had the same mindset about the show. But then

once I got fired, it was all on you. Yeah,
you know, and it took you know, the writers were
good about letting me work through the process of going
through the change and grieving your loss and then being
awkward with Rose coming in. Yes, Prue and Page, but
I'm using their real life names because that's what I

had to deal with. And you know, I had said
to Jonathan, it's not the show that I want to do.
It's not the show I signed up for. And you know,
the conversation got to the point where he said not
just threatened to sue me, but said he would sue
me and dock my wages if I worked anywhere else, right,

I remember, including being a backer at a grocery store.
They would still dock your wages. Yeah, I said, well
that's because I started laughing, like through my tears. I
started laughing, and I was like, what does that even mean.
He said, we will sue you for what we think
we will have lost on the show because of your departure,
and we will dock your wages to regain those numbers.

And I said, well, what if I go to like
Arizona and I bag groceries. He goes, we will dock
your wages. It really was like, suddenly, I'm married to
the mob. They forced me to go back to a
show that I wanted nothing to do with, and it
was very emotional for me, and it was very emotional
for both of us. And you couldn't understand how I

couldn't do anything, and frankly, neither did I, because my
voice meant nothing. And that's what was so funny to me.
I was like, you're telling me I'm so valuable that
you can't do the show without me, but yet my
voice and my feelings and my thoughts mean nothing. Well,
imagine could they couldn't lose two sisters? Like it's fine to,

you know, go into a four season replacing one sister
and all of a sudden she's dead and you have
her direct her own death without telling her what she's doing.
But to lose two, for sure, I think at that
point the audience would have turned because the truth would
have come out at that point, and eventually those people
would have turned it off, which is why it's I think,

correct me if I'm wrong. But you and I have
spoken about this. It's hard to have even this conversation
publicly because we are so respectful of the audience and
the fans and how much they love the show, and
they bond with the show when they think of us
all as sisters, so as we are. You don't want

to break that. You don't want to burst anybody's bubble.
But the fact of the matter is, this is what
I say. It is like a real life family. We
did have common goals, and we tried to keep it together,
and we did get along famously for a long time,
and then you just have life differences where sisters, as
far as I know, from having no siblings myself, families,
you know, stop talking to each other, or people come

back together and reunite or they don't, you know, And
it's just it's a painful. It's a painful bond and
it was a painful time. And for it to be
put to me the way it was was it felt
like blackmail. And then try acting through that and making

people want to see it. While you succeeded, eh, I
don't know, people still wanted to see it. I think
people inherently instinctually understand that it was like once I
was gone, it was you that was the glue between
the new Threesome and I think it's why when people

really think of Charmed, it becomes yes, prou will always
be there, but there's a big piper element because I
think it's obvious like you were, you know, hurt, you
were all of those things. I think that shows and
how you dealt with it after. But during the rest
of those years, you were the glue. Yeah, you know.

And it was it was tough because you know, none
of this was Rose's fault, and she was coming into
this situation quite awkwardly. Even though she was a tough guy,
she wasn't. This was awkward for her and I had
I had empathy for her for that, and I could
see how difficult this was for her to just jump
into not just being a show that was already running,

but she had never done TV before, so there was
a huge learning curve, you know. So I was sensitive
to that fact. And really my only consolation, and it
wasn't a very big one, was that I said to Jonathan,
you guys will not have the privilege of saying that
you fired her again. And I said, the only thing
that I'm going to ask of you is that she

gets to put out whatever statement she wants to. And
I said, if anybody talks about it, then I'm I'm
going to be a very big problem. I mean, what's
really funny about that is that I had a pair
play deal, and when all of this went down, I
was like, Okay, they can't burn me a second time, right,
That's not fair. It's not fair to me. So I

really wanted to sue them for my payer play deal,
which would mean that for as long as you guys
went on, I would continue being paid and my contract
would be honored as far as a paycheck goes and
profit participation and everything that was in my contract and
my representatives and remember them looking at me at the

time and said, no, no, no, your career won't survive
another firing. So we're just going to say that you
chose to leave. And I started I remember I started laughing, going,
who is going to believe that I'm crazy enough to
leave a hit show or to direct an episode that

you died in and not such a great fashion. We
would have made it far more spectacular than that, for sure.
It wouldn't have been just a bookcase falling on you
and me being thrown through the air and through a
door wall or whatever. I had both went through the
wall and looked like we were taking a nap. I
would have blown up, you know, I would have had

far more spectacular. Somebody take over your body and you
blow me up, and let's see how you deal with
killing her sister for the next season. I would have
done something, you know, a lot more. But I'm going
to say I was still young. I was twenty seven, eight,
twenty nine, somewhere in that range, and really thought that
I should listen to everybody else about my career. And

it's one of It's not like a huge regret because
at the end of the day, it's just a TV
show and it's just one aspect of my life when
my life is about so many other things. But I
wish that I had been older and wiser, because I
definitely would have sued, and I would have been honest

about the situation, because the rumors followed me regardless, right,
and so the rumors were there, but now I wasn't
getting paid and I was made out to. It makes
you look crazy when you want to you when you
leave a hit show only after three seasons. I think
that the people in the industry and the business knew

what happened because word spread not necessarily though, Yeah. I
mean we ran into it a couple of times. It
was it was, It was awkward, and I think I
said much earlier that you know, there are things that
you can forgive and forget, and I was pretty harsh
saying that I would never forgive or forget. And I

was contemplating that again today and yesterday, and I thought,
is there forgiveness? I think there's acceptance, which as you
get older, you accept that a situation happened. But acceptance
and moving on with your life does not equate to forgiveness.

You just learn a lesson and look at somebody differently
and move on. I think we were all just cogs
in that wheel. I think they knew how to make
money and they did it well. You know, I was
fine being and I know that this doesn't sound very
good for me, but I was fine being a cog

in that wal, to be honest, because it was a
great show and it was something that I enjoyed. The
more it progressed and the more I got to do
my stunts and I had that amazing stunt team, it was.
It was fun. I looked forward to going to work
and once they started letting me direct. I was in

my element. I was assuming that for season I would
direct something like five episodes of four episodes. It was.
It gave me a lot of opportunities that I was
incredibly grateful for. But then when that was sort of
snatched away without even a fair trial, that's what's upsetting,
without a warning though, either. I mean, I remember when

you called me and we were on a hiatus and
you were working and we hadn't really talked in a minute,
and you said that they had just fired you. I said,
that's impossible, it's impossible. I was like, you just directed
the last episode. That's impossible. Like I really was like,
you're mistaken, You're mistaken, because it was just so preposterous.

It was so ridiculous that it was like shocking, and
you said you need to do something, and I was like,
it's just not even happening, and it's so dumb, so dumb.
I will say that I think Rose stepped in nicely,
and that, as you said, was very hard. Yeah. I

know that there was some press things trying to pit
us against each other, and well that's what they did
in that I kept on referring to a photo of
the two of us at an Entertainment Weekly party in
New York City where we hung out, and we're both
smiling and happy with each other because there was no reason.
It wasn't Rose's fault. There was no reason for me

to have an issue with her, and she did a
great job, and she brought something quirky and different to
the show. But it was definitely you that kept that
train moving forward and being the person that cared oh
so deeply besides me for it and making sure that

the fans got what they needed out of that show.
You were very dedicated to that, cause yeah, I was.
I still am, you know, And that's why going to
cons like is strangely, you know, it's astonishing to me
that it meant, you know, half as much to other

people as it did to me, because I really thought
I was going crazy for a little bit where I
was like, I just I just so valiantly wanted to
make it good and wanted to make it real and
for whatever reasons I can't really even explain now, So
you know, part of part of it is work ethic,
part of it is not wanting to fail, you know,

but it was it was a big deal to me. Wow,
anything that you want to add, I don't know, I
got a little heated, calmed down a little bit. It
was a terribly uncomfortable situation for me, and obviously you
saying I'm not going to do the show without her
in the beginning to network and me saying it clearly

didn't have the same effect, you know, and so it
was terribly awkward for me. You know, Brian and she
were dating at the time when this all went down,
which to me, us being completely oblivious to me was
the worst part, where it was like all sort of
part of this plan that was happening and unfolding through

over months. It was, you know, months of that year,
and you were dating Julian, so you guys were off
in that world, and then Brian was off with Alyssa.
He just recently. It was it was about a year
ago in France. We were on stage at a panel
that was filled with many, many people and he just

kind of paused, like he looked at me like he
forgot something. And I looked at him, like, what, what's
the problem. Why are you looking at me like that?
And he just looked at me while someone was asking
a question and just went, I'm so sorry, and I
was like sorry for what. I was like, are you
going somewhere? What's happening. He just shook his head and goes,

I'm so sorry. Because we had talked about it a
little on stage without talking about it, because still no
one was allowed to talk about it, and we got
off stage and he just looked at me and said,
I'm so sorry. That must have been a terrible time
for you. That's all I have to say. I mean,
it took him like twenty four years, but better late

than never, better late than never. I want to go
back to something that you said right before that, and
you said, when I said the network, you know it's

she's doing it or you don't get me, And you
said that you know obviously when you tried that, it
didn't mean as much. And I want to say that
I disagree because I think had it been any normal
situation that we were in with them, you saying that

would have been enough. They would have chosen the right path.
And yes, do that now in this day and age,
it's not going to fly in any way, shape or form.
But your voice I think was appreciated, and I think
they I think they knew that they couldn't lose you,

but they were over a legal barrel, and I don't
want you to ever sell yourself short in that scenario.
I know that you fought for me, and I know
the tactics that they took with you, but you know
you did the right thing. You stood up and you

fought for what you believed in for your friend, for
the show. But that legal barrel that was created was
just far too much for them, and you have to
accept that also and understand that again. You know, I

just want everybody listening to to respect the fact that
it's hard for the two of us to sit here
and talk about this show in anything but a positive light,
because we know how much it meant to the audience
and to our fans, and to the people that we

hear from all the time that talk about how it
brought them closer to their families or it helped them
get through dark times when they were younger, and that
is something that the two of us take very seriously.
We love the fans, we love the show. We're super respectful.
So none of this is to try to to try

to tear any of that down. And as I said before,
there's no hate left behind. We've all moved on, and
we definitely wish everyone, you know, peace, love and healing
and all of that. I know I have much bigger
things in my life to worry and concentrate on. However,

you can't. One can't keep telling the same story over
and over and over again when it's not the truth.
And this podcast is in fact called Let's be clear,
So all right now, holla and I are going to
talk about something else. Okay, I have a funny question.
I mean, it's not funny, but it's one that we
get asked a lot in the panels at the conventions,

which is, would any of us ever consider doing a reboot?
And how would we even manage to do it? Disclaimer
being that we don't own the show, so it's very
hard for us to to convince CBS to pull their
heads out of their asses and let us do it,
and let us do it the right way, let us

do it right. But how would that? Would you be
interested in that? And what would that look like to you? Gosh?
You know, it's a hard question to answer because you know,
I get asked about it weekly. Like I'm not exaggerating,
I hate the R word. I hate, you know, the
theory that we're going to reboot something to make it

better than it was. So then let's not say a reboot.
What if we do a continuation, but we've now fast
forwarded so many years. Just you know, I have I
have no problem doing it. I just hope for better
special effects. I hope for you know, people to understand

that this, this show and this job meant so much
to so many people around the world. And this is
why I you know, I sometimes downplay it and people
get angry at me, but it's like it's hard to
talk about how important it was when you were part
of it. But I just think there's three generations now

that have watched the show. There are people that watch
it every day and sometimes twice a day, and you know, yeah,
I would do it. I would just hope that people
would come to it with an understanding that some things
are bigger than you and some things are more important
than you know, personal feelings, you know. In that being said,

there's also split screen and green screen, and people don't
have to work with each other. They don't want to.
We can just make it look like you do. But yeah,
you know, I just I think from the very beginning
I've been trying to say, this thing is bigger than
all of us. It's definitely bigger than me, and it

still means a lot to a lot of people. And
I'm glad it does because that means that, you know,
everything that we all went through actually still means something. Agreed. Yeh, agreed.
I was trying to get a more fun answer out
of you. I know, okay, but it's too late. I'm
already in the dark and gloomy, gritty. I was trying
to think, like, what would have happened to your kids

by now, because what did happen to your kids? One?
Like day and one is alive? Like what's what's Chris
is dead? Chris is his day? He had a terrible
accident off of the Golden gate Bridge. No, I'm just kidding.
We can't kill Drew, even though wind to kill Drew
every day every day and other I haven't read that

you had no, yeah, Wyatt, he's the perfect child and
supposedly in the continuing I think it's the comic books. Yes,
we have comic books, in case anybody didn't now, and
we had novels like Connie wrote books after the show ended,

along with a few other writers. I had I finally
had the third kid, because everybody said she had a girl.
I think they both somebody has twins. I mean, there's
all sorts of another generation, which is why people were
always like, why didn't they just do the next generation?
And I was like, you'll have to ask the CEW

Paramount and CBS that question. I always say that Prue
is now like, you're the most powerful elder. You're an
elder that's in the universe, but come and kick physical
ass all the time. That's the thing is, nobody really dies,

so you technically can do whatever you want technically, right, yep,
which I guess. I mean, I have no when they
when they asked me if I would come for the finale,
you said no. I said no, And I didn't even ask,
like how they would bring me back because it's it's
a fantasy world, so obviously there's tons of different ways

to do it, and they would have been open to
my suggestions. But yeah, I think I didn't want to
do the finale because at that point it had been
however many seasons, and yeah, I was, you know, very separated.
You were trying to distance yourself from it and move on. Yeah,

which is understandable. But I'm now an old lady and
I'm like, that's okay. I could still do some stunts.
I'm not doing any Come on, we can run around
and heels still, and I want a rocking chair and
I want a car hand thing. I can do that

from a chair. And she's got some grandkids now probably wait,
they can go run around and heels. Drew wears heels
just fine. And your daughter's probably a witch. She is. Yeah,
I've never read these novels that Connie wrote. I'm gonna
have to try to track them down. Have you read them?
And the comic books and comic books I always seem

to be doing laundry, so I'm not into those either. No,
oh thank you. No, that's not good. So we kind
of bonded over sea, Shepherd, although you were very militant
about it, much more than I was. You're like, we're
going to this demonstration today. I was like, it's Valentine's Day.
You were like, yeah, let's go. So yeah, I mean

we had that in common, and we had that sort
of drive to be an activist in common. And I think,
especially with what has happened to see Shepherd, there's clearly
more work to be done. I think it's about time
for either one of us or both of us to
have our own foundation because right now, especially with like

what's happened to See Shepherd, it's hard to know who
to trust, and it's hard to know where trust, where
your money is going, and things like that. So I'm
producing a documentary about the Harbor Seals up here. I
just pledge my own money. There's obviously a lot of

really good foundations, but there is I'm always amazed at
how much money is spent on administration salaries as opposed
to as opposed to the bulk of the money going
towards the animals. So also, you know, for me, it
was very hard with Sea Shepherd because of the thing

with Taiji and paid my way there and went and
gotten a lot of trouble with Japan that didn't really
want me to come back for a while, and being
there at the cove, and that was extremely hard. Just
like watching all of the their campaign for the baby

seals in Canada that are club to death and then saying, Okay,
why aren't you still there? Well, it's going to die out.
We've done a great job and we've brought it down
to a certain level, which is what a lot of
these foundations do is they think, like, all right, so
instead of ten thousand seals, is now only one thousand seals.

So eventually that's going to be zero seals. But what
happens is once you disappear and you don't have a
presence there anymore, and you're not documenting it anymore, the
thousand seals turns into three thousand seals, which then turns
into five thousand seals, and then you have the problem again.
And I'm a firm believer in sticking with a campaign

until you get the result that you want, right I
think you know, with them, they had limited resources even
though they had the most of many and they're you know,
the focus would sway. But now with Sea Shepherds no
longer really Sea shepherd there's nobody in Taiji. There's only
Dolphin Project in Taiji. That's crap, you know. And I

will say Dolphin Project how amazing because they have stuck
with it yea and poured a lot of money into it,
very consistent with Lolita and very consistent with Taiji and
captives and rehabilitation. So they still get my vote. Yeah,
they get my vote too. They've definitely proven to be

stewards of those dolphins and Taiji and the pilot whales
and the melon heads and all of that. They've done
a really beautiful job being stewards. I don't know how
we don't eradicate that situation, especially considering that it's been

proven that that meat is filled with mercury and incredibly
bad for you. And I was just talking to a
woman from Japan the other day, beautiful lady. She did
my makeup for People magazine and Hanoka, and we were
talking about it, and she was saying that nobody really

eats it anymore, that it's a very there's one area,
one area, and a certain generation that really eats it.
And say, well, of course that's because they are going
to continue claiming that they eat it because they can
hide under the cultural banner as opposed to what it's

truly about, which is financial. It's all about capturing those
dolphins that they then get to go sell for a
million dollars, two million dollars. That poor albino dolphin is
still in that small and I was there at that
Taiji Whale museum, and that is nothing no place for
anything to be living in, but they have to because

they're making so much money. These fishermen. Fishermen don't know
any other way, They don't want to know any other way.
They get a ton of money, and but they do.
They can't say, well, we're just greedy. We're just greedy,
So we're going to keep killing dolphins, and in the

most horrific way possible, because those still rods that they
put through their blowholes does not killed them right away.
It is incredibly painful. They've bleed out. They're separating mothers
from their babies. It is I've never seen something more horrific.
And for anybody who has not still doesn't know anything
about what's happening in the Cove and Taiji. There is
a documentary called The Cove. It's very good. You should

watch it. And then you had me go with you
to the protest in Miami. That was Lolita. Yeah, that
was Lolita. Can you tell us a little bit about Lolita?
She unfortunately, you know, I don't know. There was also
someone who took over the Miami c Aquarium who was

I believe, pretending to have good faith in sending her home,
which is actually where I live now, because I moved
to sort of the neck of the woods where I
felt I could do the most and was most inspiring
to me. And she would have been rehabilitated here. But

I feel like, and I did at the time, that
they weren't being entirely honest, you know, talking about raising
funds and keeping them. I don't think this organization had
any real plans on releasing her. And the same with SeaWorld,
you know, like I did. I narrated the documentary on Quirky,
who is the longest held captive, and she's been there decades,

like Lalita was there decades. And you know, Lalita's case
was really tragic because her tank wasn't even a legal size,
so there were so many reasons, you know, that she
should have been the one that was released, and sadly
she passed away just recently under really suspect circumstances that

haven't totally been revealed yet, you know. And it was
me and Paul Watson and one other person who said
they have no intention of releasing her. This is all
just a smoke screen. It was all just a stall tactic,
and nobody really wanted to hear that, you know, But

with organizations like that, who their business is owning dolphins
and SeaWorld, there's very little hope. You know. We can
talk about it, we can make movies about it. We
can show how atrocious the tanks are and how dirty
and how bored they are, and how brilliant and smart
and how they're meant to live with their families and

be social, and we can do all that, but there's
nothing that's going to convince a corporation to change their
formula that's been making them money for decades without a
tidal wave of public opinion. And then fortunately there's just
too many people who still go to SeaWorld and buy
a ticket and basically fund abuse. There's just no other

way to put it. You're funding animal abuse. I get it, right,
Like I get someone having a kid and being like
I want to I want my child to see this
killer whale and this dolphin or this elephant or this
I understand, but there are other ways sure to see

these animals, to witness There are migrations that you can
go see at any point in time, And then you're
also teaching your child about respecting another being and what
they're like in the wild. The corporations have to have, yes,

an outcry of human opinion, and it's got to hit
them in their wallets. They cannot profit from it anymore.
Once it becomes too expensive for them to buy them
and house them and they're just not making the profit,

that's when things might change. Also, the regulations need to
be better. Yeah, they're losing money now, they're actually getting
sued for lying to stockholders about how much they were
actually losing because of the blackfish effect that they call it.
But the fact of the matter is if you don't humanize,

and I don't like to do that with animals, but
if you don't humanize the issue, people don't really care
and go throughout their days. So like the campaign I
did with Peda was pretty smart because they said, you know,
moms shouldn't take their babies to SeaWorld because what happens is,
especially with orcas, the sons in the wild live with

their mothers their entire life, their entire life, they do
not leave their mothers, and in SeaWorld they separate the
babies from their moms, separate families and there's literally like
they scream out, shaking and crying when this happens, like
there's a family bond with orcas that we can't even

understand as humans because they have a whole different part
of their brain that is a sense of community, community
and family that we don't even have, Like they literally
have a different part of the brain that is just
for this. So we know enough to know this about them,
and we know that after five decades, this is torture
for them. And the only thing I can really do

without being a really big pain in the ass and
annoying is just tell people and inform people, let them
make their own decisions, and hopefully they'll decide. See world
is too expensive to watch something be miserable in a tank, Yeah,
especially because there's other alternatives to seeing it. And I'm sorry,

go watch a documentary and show your child through a documentary.
It's far more interesting and far more revealing than watching
something be trained to do flips and tricks because you're
starving them with food and they're now completely reliant upon
a human being, because that's not natural, that's not how
they conduct themselves in the wild. So at least have

a true wild, authentic experience versus what you're getting at
a place like SeaWorld. I think. I think the best
idea I've heard in a long time is as starting
a foundation. Yeah that too. Well, we have a few ideas.
I mean we also have a deep love of well
of all animals, but horses. We bonded over horses for

a very long time. We still do. We both do
rescue work with horses. I just rescue you two when
got cancer in one eye has to be taken out. Yeah,
that's unfortunate. But they do adapt. They do adapt, especially
if they have a buddy. She found a buddy at
the kill pen, or her buddy found her. Yeah, so

that helps keep them calm and secure. And dogs, we
had lots of conversations about dogs and how to help
and especially with how with high kill shelters. Yeah, I
mean we do have a lot of We have a
lot of We have a lot of fires in the
oven right now. Yeah. We have a lot of common
interest and we kind of always have and I think

the ones we have cooking, you know, are kind of
a culmination of all those things. I would agree, thank you,
sure anytime? Great, No, not anytime. Let's see in like
two hours, Yeah, great, awesome, All right, Well that's let's

be Clear with Shannon Doherty with special guests Holly Murray
Colms love her, Love you guys, Thanks for listening.
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