Levels to Authenticity with Jemele Hill

On this episode of Levels to This, Sheryl and Tee talk to Jemele Hill about what it means to find your authentic voice in media. The three discuss the WNBA media environment this past year, the impacts of the 2024 election on journalism and how the goal posts always feel like they’re moving for black women in the media. Plus, Sheryl, Tee and Jemele dig into their Thanksgiving day meals.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Levels to This is an iHeart women's sports production in
partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey, everybody, it's your girl, Srika Foster Brassby.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
And I'm your girl, Cheryl Swoops And this is Levels
to this.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
This is the podcast and the show where we share
that it is levels to the ship that women go through.
And we have got such a great show lined up today.
We have an incredible special guest that I really cannot
wait to talk to. But first, Cheryl, have you been
keeping up with what's going on between Drake.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
And Kendrick Lamar? No? See this the ship right here.
I'm like, I know, I'm like, should I not have it? Okay?
So they got into a rap beef and honestly, I'm sorry,
I'm sorry. Didn't Drake have another rap beef with somebody else?

Speaker 2 (00:59):
See, he had a beef would meet Mills some years ago,
and then he had a beef with somebody else.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
He be beaking whatever, he be beaking with everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
So Kendrick Lamar is who he'd been beefing with this year,
and that's how we got not like us?

Speaker 3 (01:12):
They not like us.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Oh so Kendrick Lamartin dropped this little album this past
Friday and it's it's been period not Drake mad. So
Drake then fouled like these little legal actions against the
music group. Against the music group because they said he's
saying one they fabricated streams because not Like Us was

(01:33):
like the highest streaming song of the year. And then
he's also suing them for defamation of character because they
allowed they allowed this particular track to go on basically
where Kendrick is calling him a sex offender, and apparently.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
I guess he said, he's not my problem. I'm just
like listen.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
I believe Reddit has some things out here in the
streets that will make this a very difficult lawsuit for you, Drake.
But the some why bring this up, it's because it
made me think you played in the WNBA. She got
she got real testy in the WNBA some time the time.

(02:12):
Never ever been a situation where you have had real
ass beef with another girl where you just be like,
I am not.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
I promise if I catch her outside, it's about to
be a rep Look at me. Do I even look
like I would be that girl. Are you looking for
my real answer? Listen.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
It was a couple of times where I was just like, bitch,
you got one today, but real quick, let me tell.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
You this funny story.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
We were playing the Los Angeles Sparks who comments Sparkes
Liberty like the three of us, we were like yeah,
always we were going at it. So we're playing at
home and my mom was hitting courtside right because I
was like, no, gotta be close to the action. Yep,
I went got an in one on Lisa Leslie and
so ball comes through the net. Lisa gets the ball.

(03:08):
I'm walking to the free throw line and get ready
to shoot it.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
So I score it. I'm like in one.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Everybody says it right, I'm walking to the free throw
line and Lisa throws the ball and hits me in
my back right.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
She ain't throw it like really hard, but she but
she threw it at me.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
So I turn around and was like, I know you
didn't just hit me with the ball. So I'm going
walking up to Lisa. She's walking up to me. Tina
Thompson gets in the middle. I was like, no, niece, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
So Tina and Lisa get into it.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Girl, But why didn't my mom get up her seat
and starts coming.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
On to the floor. Mama sat down.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Security has to get my mama. Now, mind you, we
got something going on the floor. But I see security
put their hands on my mama. So now I gotta
address that.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
That what's going on over here? Yeah, like, don't don't
touch my mama.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Girl.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
She is trying to get to Lisa. So I look
at her.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
I said, Mama, listen in the middle of this, right,
I said to her, I said, you will not set
court sight ever again.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
Tea. I never got her court sight seats after that.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
So mama action on the floor, girl, Yeah, gonna hit
my baby with the boss. Tina and Lisa they going
at it like pushing each other, and here I am
said at the free throw line.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
So Tina ends up getting ejected for me.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
But I was like, I didn't tell you to get
in the middle of it, Like, Tina, wait a minute,
way no, I think she got a tea.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
I don't think she got ejected. Kids about this said
a protection way too far, Tina. I think I think
she got a tea.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
But at the end of the game, Tina comes up
to me like you're gonna pay my fine, I got
a tea for you.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
I was like, I was good. I didn't tell you
to come.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Really the only time I can remember right now at
the top of my head where something like that happened.
But there were definitely some players, girl, Yeah, were some players.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
That I was like, yeah, I wish you would I
know it. I knew it. See.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
This is why I'd be trying to tell folks when
they be talking about, oh, they playing too Russ in
the w have you watched, because they've been getting it in.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
Like they've been been getting it in Sparks in uh
the shock, Milton whose Detroit Planeta?

Speaker 3 (05:37):
Candas do what? Rookie what? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Sharon for swing Yeah yeah, tweet wasn't no game, like
y'all come on now, They.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Wasn't no game.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Listen anything coming out of Detroit. You already know that
we ain't got no sense. My mom would always say
anytime you would ask my mother, like what happened in
the game that you might have missed, she'd have been like,
they might have gotten into a fight. And I said,
did we win the game or not? And she would say,
they really don't matter if they.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
Won the game. Because you know they want to fight. Yeah,
they wanted to fight. They want to fight. When Bill A.
Beer and Rick Mahorn coaches, you knew it.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
You knew what you knew it was gonna be something
with them every game.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
I'm really surprised when Vegas first became Vegas that they
wasn't really just bullies because I was, like Bill and
Beer about to just turn all of them up.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
I really was, I really was. But it's just interesting.
It's interesting. I'm with you, though, Drake. I don't know
if you're gonna win that lawsuit.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
But but but what I can say is that the
new Kendrick Lamar track the album has been dope. I've
been playing it just every since it came out. I've
played it every day. It goes hard like that, and
it really shows us authenticity at its finest because there's
a line where Kendrick says in a song that I
have never changed my image to fit a rap image,

(06:59):
like I've never change who I am to fit whatever
personality it is for me to look good. And that
is exactly what we are going to talk about on
today's show, being yourself, building your authentic voice, and really
just being who you are, regardless of what and to
help us do that, we have none other than Jamail Hill,
who's going to be joining us on the show today,

(07:20):
and I'm so excited to talk to her me to
just get right into it and take this thing to
the next level. I cannot express how incredibly excited I
am about today's guest, Cheryl. We really got somebody to
pop on the show who number one has the busiest

(07:40):
schedule in the world, is all over everything, and yet
found some time to come kick it with us at
levels to this. So everyone with little owe us right,
So make some noise, everybody for my girl, Emmy Award
winning sports analysts previous Journalists of the Year NABJ. She

(08:01):
has her own show on T and T Above the
Fold and a new iHeart podcast Politics, which delves into
that intersection between sports and politics. Absolutely love the show, y'all.
Welcome my girl Jamail Hill to the show.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
Go man, this is amazing clic.

Speaker 5 (08:21):
You already know how I feel about you from our
time when we worked at ESPN.

Speaker 6 (08:25):
One of the hardest working people in this business.

Speaker 5 (08:28):
I think people because of the path that you took,
Like people ask me all the time, how did you
get into this. Why did you start in sports media?
How did you become a sports journalist? And I feel
like my path is so inauthentic from this standpoint is
that I knew what I wanted to do very early
and that's all I did. But I think your pathway
is the pathway that they should study.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Not mine.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
Really definitely, because it was hard your I know it
was hard.

Speaker 5 (08:54):
That doesn't mean like you got it out the mud,
and I'm not saying I didn't either, But I think
because you had to come through where you are now
through it more of a non traditional way that is
very inspiring to people I tell kids all the time,
like young journalists. I was like, I feel like I'm
doing your just service by answering it. Because my path
was so different and the media age that exists when

(09:16):
I came up did not exist anymore. You've had to
deal more with the current model than I have. So
I feel like your experience and the way that you've
been grinding and making yourself into such an incredible expert
and analyst, I think your path is much more representative
of today's times. So yeah, and Cheryl, I mean that

(09:38):
means you no problem to show like I would be
remiss if I didn't give your flowers as well. My
first professional beat as a sports journalist was covering the WNBA.
This was in nineteen ninety seven, Like it was my
first job out of college. I was at the News
and Observer in Raleigh as a general assignment sports reporter,
and I asked them because I had always liked women's basketball,
and the WNBA's a rival was such a big deal

(10:00):
coming off that ninety six Olympics. I asked him if
I could cover the team in Charlotte, the Charlotte Steak So,
because I covered a lot of women's basketball when I
was inow So that team, they had some g's on
that team, Tracy Reid, those late nineties basketball players, women's
basketball players like I credit them so much, players like

(10:24):
yourself for really jump starting my career because women were
so undercovered at that time that, like the access was incredible.
I won a bunch of awards based off the reporting
that I did on the female athletes in the area.
A lot to do with the basketball team because NC State,
North Carolina and Duke were all good at that time.
So anyway, being able to do that first season and

(10:47):
being able to interview players like yourself.

Speaker 6 (10:49):
It was such a huge boost and lift in my
career early on.

Speaker 5 (10:52):
So I just wanted the opportunity to thank you for
that and to say thank you for making yourself accessible,
for being such an ambassador, not to holy hijack hijacked
a conversation.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
But listen, you keep going, keep going.

Speaker 5 (11:08):
But I will tell you this one really funny story.
A homeboy of mine covered y'all had y'a almost had
a game in Charlotte, and he talked about being in
the locker room and he's a fairly seasoned columnist, but
he just thought you were gorgeous. And he was talking
about how he had to go to the locker room
to interview you and you just had a towel on it.

(11:28):
He was like, oh, it was just so dis army.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
Is fine, and here she is in this town and
I'm trying to interview her and I professional.

Speaker 6 (11:40):
Yes, he said, yes.

Speaker 5 (11:42):
He was very enamoraateed with you, and I was just like, boy,
men because maybe people listening don't know this, but the
rule they've changed it now was the NBA and wn
b A had the same access rules, a ten minute
cooling off period and the media just comes in the
locker room and it just interviewed you.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
You just do you?

Speaker 6 (12:01):
You just do you?

Speaker 3 (12:02):
Just do you?

Speaker 5 (12:03):
Because people be like, was it the same in the
W be like, yes, men were in the locker room
in the W n b A.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
What's so crazy about that is that not much has
changed as it relates to Sheryl, because I get people
in my inbox all the time that'd be like, Yo,
what's going on with Shiryl?

Speaker 1 (12:17):
Like now, no, A lot has changed with Cheryl?

Speaker 3 (12:22):
A whole lot. Listen, no, ma'am.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
But I gotta say this because Jay, you're over here
giving us our flowers and I'm gonna try really hard.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
You know, she's gonna shut up. I cried the drop
of a dime.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
But listen, and this is part of our conversation we're
gonna get into. But before we get into it, I
have to say this, and I told you this maybe
a month or so ago.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
First of all, I'm a fan, I'm a j fan.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
I appreciate everything you have ever done in this space,
ESPN your journey, everything you done, I appreciate you. But
what I really appreciate the most is how you have
continued to remain authentic.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
True to who you are. Yeah, I picked up the phone.
Oh here it.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
Comes, see and I called you Because people don't know
this because it's not their business, but I need to
share this moment. I guess it was probably a month
maybe two months ago when social media was coming for me.
And I'm just not going to say people's names on here,
but just people different people that.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
You know, I know, T knows.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
And I was in a very I don't want to
say a dark space, but I was in a not
so good space, just.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
Mentally and emotionally in.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
I don't know if you truly know how much that
moment meant to me, just having a conversation with you
and just there were so many words that you said
to me in that moment that really resonated with me
that I really needed to hear to get through what
I was going through. And I just want to say
thank you. Like you and I don't talk, we don't

(14:04):
have conversations like that, but you call me at a
moment when I was at a low and I needed
that in that moment. So I just want to say
thank you from the bottom of my heart for always
being true to who you are and just for being
there for me when I needed you, so thank you.

Speaker 6 (14:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (14:21):
I mean, even though, like you said, we don't know
each other super well, there's a relatability and like an
understood connection that's there, and like with all of us
for sure, And I knew what you were going through
and you hadn't even vocalized it to me yet, and
I was just like I've been there in that before,
where you have the world that has the pitchforks out
and like they just ready to feast, you know, and

(14:44):
try to do their best to make you miserable. And
people even though obviously being a professional athlete, you're used
to being criticized, you're used to your life.

Speaker 6 (14:52):
Being a certain amount of scrutiny.

Speaker 5 (14:54):
But I don't think people understand how different it is
when something like that happens. And it's the barrage of it,
it's the unwaveringness of it, it's all of that, and
after a while, it weighs on your spirit is heavy,
and as someone who has been through similar things, I
just wanted to encourage you. And at the end of
the day, once you get past dealing with the barrage

(15:16):
of it, like you sort of have to kind of
stand Square and be like, man, fuck these people, like
no doubt.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
No doubt, no no, no, no, no, no, no doubt, no doubt.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Man, Like, that's really where you get to. I remember,
really where you get to? Now, that's really where you
get to. I don't know if you remember this or not. Jay,
but many years ago, during your time of having to
deal with scrutiny and bullshit, pretty much, you and I
and Jasmine Ellis who went to a bar of the
Good One Hotel and we're in a hotel and we're
talking and literally as you're saying I'm about to get

(15:45):
a drink, CNN pops up with a picture of Jamel
and Johnald Trump on TV. We're like, what the fuck,
We're trying to get away from it, and it's right
here at the bar. Double the drinks at this point, because, yeah, that.

Speaker 5 (16:02):
Was an interesting time because that actually happened to me
a few times in downtown Harford because I used to
be at either the good Way because it was brand new,
or I would be at the Capitol Grille that was downtown,
knew everybody in there.

Speaker 6 (16:13):
That was my spot. I ate there a couple of
times a week.

Speaker 5 (16:15):
And after all of that happened, and I go in
there and I was literally being discussed on three networks
at the same tame, and I was like, well, this
is something you know, but it is what it is.
And the thing is, I tell people, and especially those
who have read my memoir, the things that I talk
about in my memoir are very personal, deep childhood trauma
I had to deal with, and anything that happened between

(16:38):
me and Donald Trump wouldn't even rank in the top fifty.

Speaker 6 (16:41):
Of them that I don't have about found out. And
so I.

Speaker 5 (16:44):
Always came from perspective, and especially with the volatility of
our business, and there have been other times where people
have been trying to come from my head and I
got that. But whenever that happens, I always stay level.
By Sam, you have made it through so much worse.
Really nothing that doesn't give people the right to say
it or to do some of the things that they've done,

(17:05):
but it is to say.

Speaker 6 (17:06):
That I have made it through so much worse. Yeah,
I think I can take it.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
One thing that I can say about every single person
on this show right now, whether it's me or you
or Cheryl, is that no matter what situation, we have
always seemed to find ourselves being as much as we
can be true to ourselves, and that gets incredibly difficult.
I think as your platform gets larger, because it seems
to be like the larger you get, the bigger your voice.

(17:43):
The more people have access or at least they think
they have access to you, the more there seems to
be this expectation for you to say the right things,
look the right way, do the right thing.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
And at some point you're like, I can't.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Be this thing for TV, or I can't be this
thing for the media, like I just have to be
or I just have to be sure, or I just
have to beat to Rika. And so my question to
both of you and Jamail will start with you, and
I'm gonna take it back being the fact.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
That we're both from Detroit and Beer from Detroit right there, we.

Speaker 5 (18:10):
Got a different we gotta looking at that.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Right.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
First of all, you can't get too big for your
bridges Beer from the D because they will remind you
ass where you press well, keep you grounded. But just
as you have the platforms that you have, what has
been some of the things that has helped you to
kind of develop your authentic voice Despite the size that
your platform continues to grow to what.

Speaker 5 (18:34):
The one thing I had to realize was that the
people that don't like you, you're not gonna wake up
one day and say something that they're going to be like,
you know what, I'm on board right now. So it's like,
sometimes you can run the risk of trying to please
people who are intentionally trying to misunderstand you all the
time and who intentionally want to debate and argue with
you all the time. They're just there, You're their opposition avatar.

(18:57):
And I had to understand that those people are always
going to feel that way.

Speaker 6 (19:02):
It doesn't matter what I say.

Speaker 5 (19:03):
Like I could point to them and say the sky
is blue and they want to argue me down about
it and insult me about it, and I'm like, I
don't have any time for that. So the one thing
I always keep in mind is can I live with
me at the end of the day, And that is
more important than whoever and however they react. And plus,
you know, to be honest, and I think we just

(19:23):
saw this with this national election, is that when you're
a black woman in these spaces and you have a platform,
the scrutiny, the reaction to what you say is going
to be so much different, and the goalposts are constantly moving.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
I cannot keep up.

Speaker 5 (19:36):
I would wring myself out of that if I did, so,
I just don't even bother to try. And you know it,
there are things that you say that if a dude said,
they wouldn't even react the same.

Speaker 6 (19:47):
So you're carrying that.

Speaker 5 (19:48):
Extra layer, that good old helping of both misogyny and
racism that's combining. Those forces are combining to stand in
your way all the time. So it's been helpful for
me to not just remember my roots, but remember that
I'm never gonna please everybody, and everybody will not like
what I say, and that's okay. And you just have

(20:09):
to really be rooted in your identity to the point
where I wouldn't say that things necessarily bounce off of you,
but where you feel comfortable standing in your space. So
in many ways, I'm super glad that I was able
to get the bigger platforms, the older I got as
a person and the older I got in this business,
because had this happened when I was younger, I think

(20:31):
I'd be a lot more self conscious.

Speaker 6 (20:32):
I think I'd have a lot more self doubt.

Speaker 5 (20:34):
I also would have had the unfortunate experience of doing
this having grown up in social media. Like we didn't
grow up in social right, So it's like we have
a different relationship than the people now. I think approval
and validation means a lot more to the younger generation. Yes,
maybe right, it means a lot, right, like those likes

(20:55):
matter to them, and because they don't matter as much
to me, then I'm able to keep things in perspective. Plus,
the third thing I also like to remember, and I'll
say this finally, is that check cash the same.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
Whether you like that.

Speaker 6 (21:12):
Really don't matter how you.

Speaker 5 (21:15):
You can say whatever you want to be up and down,
yep or whatever social media platform all day, that check
still gonna be there on Thursday regardless. Yes, Chuyl, I
know you feel the same way, because it's always one
thing I know I would text you and say, for
people who don't really like you, people who don't really

(21:36):
find value in the things you say, they constantly feel
the need to tag you, to follow you, to see
what you're doing, to add you to the conversation, always.

Speaker 6 (21:44):
Check it for you.

Speaker 3 (21:46):
You don't care, but don't care.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, Actually, on some days when I have time, then
I just sit there and I'll have time.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
It doesn't happen very often, and it's not because I
really care, but I'm like, you know what, I got
a little time today.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
Here's my thing. And I said this.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
If you don't like me, and if what I have
to say is wrong, why the hell are you following me?
Why do you have your notifications turned on so that
any time and every time I post something you get it.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
That's the part that like just truly baffles me.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
I have found, and I don't know Jay, if you
feel this way or ut. I have found that as
I've gotten older, I really don't give a shit, do you.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
Know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (22:33):
I do, because here's what I think people tend to forget.
And you said this earlier. Why am I not entitled
to my opinion? And it's my opinion? Like if any
of the male analysts, male athletes, any of them, they
have their own opinion and it's okay. It's because well
they're men, so it's okay for them to have an opinion.

(22:53):
And for me, I just find it very maybe interesting
that anytime a former player right has an opinion on
what's going on in the WNBA or whatever, that we're bitter,
we're mean, we're ugly, we're nasty, we're all kinds of words,
And my thing is, no, that's not what it is.

(23:14):
But we're entitled to have our opinion to talk about
where the game is today, what the players are like
today versus the way it was when it first started.
But the thing when I said, I found out I
got as I got older, I don't really give a
shit when you're playing and you're in that space. We'll
use WNBA for example, because that's the space I was in.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
There's this kind.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Of written rule right that there are just certain things
you don't say, or certain things you don't talk about
because if you do, it gives the league a bad
name or a bad look. And so I think so
many players, including myself when I played, we got so
caught up in we're just gonna take everything that's thrown
at us, and we're not gonna come back. We're not
going to say anything at you because then it's a

(23:55):
bad look.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
On the league. And for me now that I don't.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Honestly, I'm like, what can the league possibly do to
me for being honest and for speaking up and telling
my truth?

Speaker 3 (24:08):
Like you don't know my truth.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
I just think for me, as hard as it's been
at times to see a lot of the shit that's
out there and to know that what they're saying isn't true,
it's also been very therapeutic for me to just get
that shit off my chest with.

Speaker 5 (24:23):
Some of it too, though, Is that a lot of
what the negative reaction that you experience is tied up
into really some people deep down in the places they
don't want to talk about it, Like what it's hitting
on is how they really feel about black women in general.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
Facts.

Speaker 5 (24:39):
That's why they try to look, if you put an
opinion out there, people are going to react to that opinion.
You have a right to criticize my opinion because I
put it out there. So I do understand that part.
The part that I reject is when they act as
if you don't even have a right.

Speaker 6 (24:52):
To have an opinion.

Speaker 5 (24:53):
That part that is different, right, because they're telling you
that you have no value that basically your lived experience,
it is meaningless even though you live the experience that
they're trying to gain insight into. That is the part
that I don't like. And I also, and I haven't
been shy about this. There are male analysts who have
not had that same lived experience who cannot speak to

(25:15):
what it's like to be not just a player in
the WNBA, to be one of the greatest players in
the WNBA, and to be one of the greatest players
in women's basketball history period. Having that knowledge base and
that institutional knowledge is important, and men are allowed to
be on shows and in position to speak about the

(25:36):
league having no institutional knowledge and being delightful about their
ignorance to say openly to a group, I don't know
anything about this, but here's why you should take my
opinion seriously anyway.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
Yeah, And it's crazy.

Speaker 6 (25:50):
They're allowed to be automatic experts.

Speaker 5 (25:52):
And I think what that, unfortunately does, is send the
message of how sometimes women our opinions get devalued and
how they're not even considered to be worthwhile, even if
it's something you actually.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
Experienced, which is wild to me because that brings me
to the example of how many times being a person
who covers multiple sports like Jamelle and I we have
covered more than just women's basketball. I've covered NFL, MLB,
and to have someone to tell you that either your
opinion is invalidated because you've never.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
Played football before.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
First of all, I actually did play football for the
East sac Cowboys when I was in fourth poinde.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
I was a wide receiver, if you might know.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
But the point is, it's just that there is this
thing where the first thing, especially being a woman in
this space, is that your opinion is often devalued for
the sake of the fact that you have no experience
inset thing. And it makes me look at women like
Mina Kaimes for example, probably forgotten more football than some
people have ever learned. Incredible in that space, right, And

(26:59):
so for those saying people to step over into the
women's basketball space, and it's just I am one who
preaches that basketball is basketball in some aspects, but there
are some aspects in which NBA WNBA or men's basketball
and women's basketball are inherently different. And there are just
some opinions you can't offer based off what you know
about the NBA. It just does not translate here. But

(27:19):
I think the overall picture is we are sometimes often
put in positions as women in sports, as analysts, where
we can only battle back so far, we can only
push back so much. I think one thing is this
is levels to this that makes my level a little
different than you two is. I'm still like at that
middle point, right, So I have to balance the line

(27:41):
of being true to who I am, being authentic with
my voice and saying what I want to say, but
also understanding I haven't gotten a bag yet.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
So I can't. I can't go all the way to
deep been right, Like I got to dip my toe.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
See how much you're gonna let me go figure it
out from there, because I'm someone that's still positioning myself
within this space, within companies, within the avenues of having
to be presentable or professional in some way. But I
just will never compromise my values. I'll never compromise my opinion.
I won't compromise who I am. To your point, Jay,

(28:13):
I got to be able to sleep at night, and
if I feel I can't do that, then I just
not for you. But I think what makes it interesting
is that this wasn't always the case, Like the value
of authenticity wasn't always a thing in our space and
our business. It just wasn't when I first got into media.
And I'm like, y'all know, I wear wigs because that's
my thing, that's what I do. But in the beginning,

(28:35):
it was because I can't let y'all see my blond hair,
or I can't let y'all see how I look like.
I need to look like what the presentation is of
what an analyst or talent or broadcaster would look like,
because otherwise I won't be accepted into this space or
respected into the space. And then I don't know, something
happened in twenty twenty where black people decided to finally say,
y'all have stepped on this man's neck, and we're fed

(28:57):
up with your shit, and now you want to see
us a little differently, Well, we welcome your braids, and
we welcome your weaves, and we welcome your blond here,
and we welcome your nails, and we welcome all this
authenticity and diversity that you bring to this space. And
it's just it's interesting because there was a time again
where those things wouldn't have been accepted, where those things

(29:17):
actually would have probably pushed you further and further to
the back. Just have there been moments where maybe you guys,
have felt that you haven't truly been able to say
what you want to say, or speak on how you
want to speak, or bring your authentic self to the
table because maybe there was something on the line that
you may not have been able to get because of it.

Speaker 5 (29:36):
Well, you know, it's interesting you bring that up in
this particular time because a lot of the things that
we saw that happened in twenty twenty, where you had
people opening the doors and welcoming black people and saying,
we want to hear about your experience, we want to
know where we could do better.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
Yeah, all that shit way, Scott.

Speaker 5 (29:52):
Yeah, and it's gone because I knew it would be,
because the way that it was. I knew that people
sometimes oftentimes have nfortunately are only interested in systemic change
in moments because it requires a lot of hard work,
a lot of consistency, and it requires, most importantly you
to risk being ostracized to do it. And so that's

(30:12):
why allyship is something to be taken seriously. You don't
need an ally as doctor Yaba Blaze she said this before,
I don't need an ally, I need a co conspirator.
Those are different, right, And so a lot of people
aren't willing to be the co conspirator because that means
when inevitably the shit hits the fan, you have to
still be willing to stand on business, and they are
not because as soon as the temperature changes, then they

(30:38):
want to go back to what it was before. So
authenticity for black people and for black women and especially
is always a slippery slope and it's always something that
you have to evaluate moment by moment. As much as
I feel like I do have the most freedom in
terms of being able to really authentically be who I
am say what I want to say, I still have

(30:59):
constraints because I still have bills to pay, period, not
a large bills.

Speaker 6 (31:04):
I still have bills to pay.

Speaker 5 (31:05):
All right, And especially now where we see there's going
to be a deep progression, there's going to be a
different tone and temper to this nation that bleeds itself
into sports and entertainment, into all of those cultural things
that connect us. And so right now I live in
Los Angeles, a lot of black people in media are

(31:25):
having the conversation about where we fit as we change
into this new presidential administration, because, particularly for journalists, this
is probably the most critical time in our history, not
just in the way we have covered certain things, it's
critical because you're going to have someone in the White
House who has made no secret of the fact that
he considers journalists to be enemies. And when that's the case,

(31:49):
as we've already seen, is that people are already preemptively
bending the knee, and that's not what journalism was for.
The whole point of journalism is disruption. That's the whole
point of it. And so that's going to bleed into sports.
I just did a bonus episode on politics about how
the Trump presidency will impact the world of sports this
time around. Which you're going to see is that it's

(32:09):
going to be support of him is going to be
a lot more normalized.

Speaker 6 (32:12):
There's going to be a lot of.

Speaker 5 (32:13):
Leagues who, seeing that he although barely won the popular vote,
they consider that to be a mandate that hey, the
majority of people in this country, this is who they support.
So therefore we have to make sure that we coddle
that half of the country. That we center this half
of the country and I won't say half of the country.
Let me be clear, half of the people who voted.

(32:35):
That's different than half of the country. Yes, half of
the people who voted. There's this idea that we now
have to cater to those opinions and that belief system.
The problem is that when it's us even if we
are part of the majority opinion, that sentiment still exists anyway,
and so we sometimes find our authenticity having no place.

(32:57):
And I feel or a lot of us that are
in media right now, because I think this is going
to be a very difficult terrain to navigate.

Speaker 6 (33:07):
It's going to be a.

Speaker 5 (33:08):
Tricky time, and there are going to be I think,
harsher consequences for speaking out than there were before. But
this is when I feel like we have to stand
the tallest if we can. I certainly don't. I don't
at all judge anyone who has to make business decisions,
because I think we have to make those daily. We're
going to have to compromise somewhere, particularly if you want to.

Speaker 6 (33:30):
Be in corporate media. It's going to have to happen.

Speaker 5 (33:32):
Right What I've always tried to keep in mind is
I know when I have the leverage, I use it.
And sometimes what we will do is when we do
have that leverage and we can maybe make some systemic change,
is that we wind up talking ourselves out of it
because we are too worried about what they might think.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (33:52):
And I'm like, when they got the leverage, they don't
worry about how we think. Why am I worrying about this?

Speaker 6 (33:56):
At ESPN?

Speaker 5 (33:57):
As you know, Tarica, particularly my last year, it was
a very difficult year to navigate. And one of the
reasons I left Sports Center is because I felt like
every day I had to come to work and was
just fighting to be authentic and I got tired of that.

Speaker 6 (34:13):
He's like, why got to fight with you to be me?
Why do I have to do this?

Speaker 5 (34:16):
And to me, the writing was on the wall in
many ways figuratively in Sports Center. In the set we
had a personality wall, and so on the personality wall,
me and my friend former TV partner Michael Smith. They
allowed us to have personal pictures of our families, things
that are important to us. So of course we had
up there our pictures with former President Barack Obama because
we got to go to.

Speaker 6 (34:36):
The White House twice. Yeah, he was there.

Speaker 5 (34:38):
He was a fan of our show, he loved watching ESPN,
and so we had those pictures up there. We had
a picture Biggie, We had a picture of Tommy Smith
and John Carlos, things that represented pop culture, revolutionary changes
in sports, that kind of thing, and yeah, of course
the first black president. We were told we had to
take it down.

Speaker 6 (34:55):
Now.

Speaker 5 (34:56):
The thing is, the only picture they wanted us to
take down was the one really with Baraco Obama. But
then like that, Yeah, so they made us take down everything. Wow, Wow,
a new presidency had occurred, Yes, why we had to.

Speaker 6 (35:09):
Suddenly take it down.

Speaker 5 (35:11):
And so I feel like things like that are things
we've all had to certainly deal with in our career.
But unfortunately, I think we're about to hit a moment
where those types of things are about to get worse
and much more bolder in terms of how people view authenticity,
because it's only, as we know, it's only certain people
that are allowed to be authentic. That's it, apologizing, that's it,

(35:34):
and none of them look like anybody on this call
right now, which is interesting. I think one thing that
we've come to find, and I know Cheryl you can
definitely speak to this, is that there are so many
athletes now who have transitioned over into the media space
right and that can be a good thing on many levels.
You have the experience, you understand the game from a
different perspective. You're giving the audience another way to view

(35:56):
what's going on and to understand what's happening on the
corridor on the field or whatever and whatever sector it is.
But it also can prove to be incredibly difficult for some,
not all, but for some to separate that I am
no longer a player, that I am now in this
space as an analyst, that I am now in this space.
And I can imagine it could be incredibly difficult for someone,

(36:18):
you know, like a Chenea Gumakay a few years ago,
who was still playing while also being in media. But
I think it becomes increasingly difficult to separate those lines
for the audience and for you. I would love to
know what that's like, trying to be the professional in
your sport, trying to be the color commentator, trying to

(36:39):
offer that opinion as an analyst, while also understanding that
I've got to be very careful how I told this line,
because there are some who won't understand I am no
longer a player and I am not speaking as a player.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
It's hard.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
I want to go back and touch on one thing
that y'all are just talking about. As far as you know,
lots of times people say, just be you right, show up,
be your authentic self.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
That's what we.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
Want, And in reality, I'm like but do you really
because your actions, the way you're treating me and things
you're saying to me say differently. You know what's hard is,
especially being a former player and then becoming an analyst
or a color commentator, is I call the game the
way I see it as a former player, and it

(37:25):
doesn't really matter who the player is.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
Great example, Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
Right, because this is kind of sort of where all
the stuff started with me. My very first statement that
I made when Angel and Caitlyn were coming out of
college was that I didn't think either of them would dominate.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
The league immediately.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
But everybody only took you said Caitlyn wouldn't dominate immediately.
No one really cared about what I said about Angel,
and my response was no, I said that about both
of them. Again, it's my opinion, and what I mean
by don domde is if they're dominating, then they should
come in from game one, from day one and put

(38:07):
up thirty forty.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
To be honest with you, I felt like Angel may
have done it a little bit quicker than Caitlin because
she came in getting double doubles. Right. That's neither here
nor there. I only bring that.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Up to say I had an opportunity, so I thought
to do studio for Ion because remember Ion carried some
WNBA games this year. Ion reached out to my agent,
had the deal done, and this was on a Friday.
The deal was done. I get home, I'm on the plane.

(38:40):
When I get off the plane, I have a message
from my agent that says call me. I was like,
all right, cool, So I call her and she says
Ion's off the table. So I was like, what do
you mean. It was only missing my signature. So apparently
I think I know who it was. But apparently someone
from the league called Ion and said we do not

(39:01):
want Sheryl Swoops doing studio because of her Caitlyn Clark comments.
And I only bring that up to say, yes, it
is hard because I'm trying to be me and I'm
being honest. I'm calling it like I said, that's what
you ask me for, that's what you're paying me for.
Yet I can only do that with certain players, and

(39:24):
for me, that's when it becomes more than basketball. And
that's where I have to decide how important is this
for me? Because one thing I'm always gonna do always,
I am always going to stand for right, and when
fans and people were coming for Diamond to Shields saying oh,
I hope you have another tumor and die I reached

(39:47):
out to Diamond and I was like, Sis, we got you.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
We're here for you, keep your head up.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
They took that as me saying keep fouling Caitlyn Clark
hard right, which my post had nothing to do with Caitlyn.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
I do not appreciate how.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
Fans, especially this year, felt so comfortable coming for certain players,
and not a single person former player or not a
single person stood up for those players. And that's where
I was like, listen, as a former player to me,
right now, this isn't about me being a commentator and an analyst,
but this is about me as a former player saying

(40:22):
this shit is not okay and somebody needs to stand
up and speak up.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
So has that affected me and has that hurt my
pocketbook a little bit? Yeah? It absolutely has.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
But at the same time, I'm going to go back
to something Jamelle said, and you said, I sleep very
well at night because I know that what I've done,
what I try to continue to do, is only standing
up for what's right and having the backs of these
current players.

Speaker 5 (40:49):
That's also something that does a disservice to women and
a disservice to women in the league in the sense
that it makes it feel it makes it seem like
they need protection for just yeah, yeah, pretty standard basketball criticism.
And it doesn't just service to her because you're saying
that her feelings.

Speaker 6 (41:07):
And by the way, she may not even felt any
kind of way about you.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
I agree with that.

Speaker 6 (41:11):
I agree with that she probably didn't.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
Now mind you, if you remember this or not.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
I did reach out to her, so we had a
text exchange, like we were cool.

Speaker 3 (41:19):
It was everybody else that had an issue with it, That's.

Speaker 6 (41:21):
What I'm saying. And it's like that.

Speaker 5 (41:22):
And when I started to hear that when you had
Jeff t talking about they need to take it easy
on her, not foul her and let her score and
all this, and I'm like, do you realize how the
idea of that is so super insulting to the women
who play in this league and to her in particular,
because there's nothing in her personality that says that.

Speaker 6 (41:42):
She wants to take.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
Nothing.

Speaker 5 (41:46):
She wants to go through what she's supposed to go through.
Because as a player, that's what makes you feel competitive
and accomplished. I don't love the optics of that, because again,
we should be able to criticize women in the league
like we would any other basketball player, like the mane
the man, Oh my god, Charles Barkley, like every day,
how much shat Dwight House have a feature of this show, right,

(42:10):
Nobody calling Shack petty or jealous.

Speaker 6 (42:13):
They just laughing as he.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
Called Rudy Gobert the worst defensive player of the year
and his and I was like.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Shock, how nobody blowing yours up about you?

Speaker 5 (42:26):
Nobody like you might have a tough time when you
go to France, but that's about it.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
You stray Like It's just it's interesting how the balance
of trying to remain professional while also trying to remain
who you are in any given situation, right, even when
it's not pertaining the sports. Even as we just went
through this presidential election, I had no problem sharing who
I was supporting. I had no problem sharing why I
was supporting that person, And quite honestly, I was hoping

(42:53):
more people would share on the other end of the
aisle that they were supporting Donald Trump, because that helps
me figure out how to move him a new around you.
I understand that there are people who you obviously can't
help but to work with because of whatever situation you
will be in. But I feel better when I know
what I'm dealing with than when I have to guess
or try to figure it out. So I appreciate knowing

(43:13):
the kind of people that are in my workplace or
the kind of people that I have to maneuver around.
But it definitely comes with a bit of backlash at times,
and now more than anything, it's going to come with
them even deeper backlash. And what I love is that
we get an opportunity to hear about this and more
on politics, because Jamille, this is what you do and
what you talk about on a regular basis.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
And I have loved every episode.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
I think my favorite has to be the episode that
you have with Dan Lebatar, just because I also worked
with Dan and talked to Dan and understood like that
was an episode that I was like, wow, I really
felt that, and so just kind of take a second
to share with us why it was important for you
to have a show that really talked about the intersection
between the two and how that intersection has always been there,

(43:58):
even when folks didn't really want to recognize it.

Speaker 5 (44:01):
The relationship between sports and politics has been a long
standing one, and that opening episode with Lebatar, I have
an essay at the top of the podcast where I
talk about how when George Washington was running for president,
and he used to host election parties and he'd get
people all liquored up and they would play sports games,
and so he was using sports, and as did many
of the early presidents, they use sports to connect with

(44:22):
their electorate. Andrew Jackson was a huge gambler, loved to
bet the ponies, as they say, and so with a
lot of our early American history, you saw that relationship
that was there. The difference was that when there were
mostly white people forging that relationship and contextualizing it, there
was a much different reaction. But when black athletes started

(44:44):
to begin to use their platforms to speak to the
conditions of their people, to be able to use sports
to get into entry places or gain entry into places
where we were normally not there, and it seemed we
were closing that gap with white America in certain ways.
Then the idea of stick to sports and politics and
sports not mixing became a thing because it's not really

(45:06):
about whether or not sports and politics mix.

Speaker 6 (45:08):
It's about whose politics do I agree with?

Speaker 5 (45:10):
And if I agree with them, then it's not political,
But when I don't agree with them, then it's too much.

Speaker 6 (45:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (45:16):
So I think this is a very interesting and complicated
relationship to examine, and that's what I wanted to use
the podcast to do. Of course, naturally, I'm going to
spend a lot of time talking about women's sports because
I think so much of what's happening in women's sports
is shaping or at least influenced by what's happening politically.
I had Terry Jackson on that WNBA executive director of

(45:36):
the Players' Union, and Terry's amazing, and I wanted people
to understand how sports, in very many ways is the
backbone of the American labor movement. The WNBA players have
opted out of their collective bargaining agreement, and that is
helping people understand how the existence of sports unions, what
they mean, and why it's important in this moment that

(45:58):
these women, why they have an incredible amount of leverage,
fight for the things that they need to fight for.

Speaker 6 (46:03):
A lot of.

Speaker 5 (46:03):
People don't understand that the WNBA salaries only account for
nine percent of the revenue that's being brought in in
the NBA. I think the players get so they're getting
the majority and even helping the people understand these narratives
that are out there because the evaluation the WNBA teams
is skyrocketing to such a point that's why people.

Speaker 6 (46:25):
Want to get in on them.

Speaker 5 (46:26):
But nevertheless, even as we think about politics, we know
it's so divisive in our country right now, but the
great thing about sports is that it's still the one
thing that we do together. It's the one thing that
we're not segregated in. Doesn't matter your gender, your race,
your economic background.

Speaker 6 (46:41):
We can all be shurel Swoops fans, right.

Speaker 5 (46:43):
And so because of that, sports gives to me the
entry point to talk about something that's like a little
bit more complicated and maybe talk about it in a
way that's not fraught with such negative energy, that where
we have an opportunity to learn and understand and connect
the dots. So that was my goal was politics, and
I wanted it to happen in an election year because

(47:03):
even now with Donald Trump promising to shut down the
Department of Education, as I've tried to remind people, and
as I did in the Bonus episode, is like I
was under the Department of nine.

Speaker 6 (47:15):
So I ever believe this is going to become a
sports issue.

Speaker 5 (47:17):
We saw that one of the most effective campaign as
he ran was about a transgender athlete. Politics will be
on the doorstep of sports, whether they would want.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
It to be or not.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Cheryl, I had a question for you. I know that
by the time this episode's aired, we will be past Thanksgiving,
and that's fine, but I'd like to know. I like
to know what's going to be on your table on Thursday.

Speaker 3 (47:52):
So can you remember we had this conversation.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
I'm one of those old school wives, so it doesn't
really matter if it's two of us, me and my
husband or if it's a bunch of us. So he says, baby,
what do we have it? And I said, what do
you want? And it's the usual. So the usual for
us is Thursday morning, I will get up and go
to my garden and harvest smiles, dunk collared.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
And mustard grade. They just taste very different.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
So we'll have collar greens, our yams, cornborad dressing, not stuffing.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
I don't do stuffing.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
There is a difference dressing corner dressing, oven baked mashed potatoes.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
Yeah, that's delicious, it's different.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
I don't do desserts, so I just go buy my
I'm a big patty LaBelle.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
I was just about to say, you're going to Walmart
to get they come away?

Speaker 3 (48:49):
Did you know you were supposed to warm them up though?
Because I didn't, I just go straight to the wa
You just ate it straight straight out the damn bar,
like a straight up the box too. I didn't know.
I wasn't aware that you da I will this year.
I didn't know. I was like, let me know to
this thing.

Speaker 5 (49:09):
I because when you said you were gonna go buy
your dessert, because you know everybody. I don't know if
this is just something unique to black culture, but everybody
know a cake a pie. Lady like, we don't, we
don't do we do?

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Right?

Speaker 6 (49:24):
Are going to see the cake?

Speaker 3 (49:25):
No? We do?

Speaker 1 (49:27):
I just I got my order in late, and I
feel really bad because she was.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Like, whoops, you know I got your baby right when
I was like, listen, don't stress yourself. I'll pay you extra,
but don't stress yourself. But it's that's right.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
But I just do the pecan pie because it's old
school pecan pie.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
And it's saying, that's another thing, a question for you
on hold on, shirl real quick.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
So what kind of pie a pecan?

Speaker 5 (49:53):
She I was like, and then because I saw in
your face, I was like, or pe can?

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Okay, yes, I could get rugged on and say but come.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
But day you got people all over social media about
some turkey.

Speaker 6 (50:15):
Oh so yo. So here's what it is.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
Now.

Speaker 5 (50:18):
The thing is, I'll make so my mom is in
town for Thanksgiving, and I'm so proud because I think
it was either last year the year before. I feel
like it was a year before when she told me
I now officially have the title I got.

Speaker 6 (50:31):
I am the best. I have the best mac and
cheese and and and dressing.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
The I need the mac and cheese recipe. I try
to make it, but it's every year I'm doing a
different recipe.

Speaker 5 (50:42):
No, in fact, I can text. I'm a text it
to you. It's like crazy, I just got that goodness
that you need.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
Do you put eggs in it?

Speaker 6 (50:50):
I actually do not.

Speaker 5 (50:52):
But you know what my if you want to call
it a secret in Giarion is sweetened this milk put
a little sweetened this milk. And it's the main thing
you don't want.

Speaker 6 (50:58):
Is for your mac and cheese to get drun.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
To get drowned.

Speaker 5 (51:01):
Now, between the cheese, I do a bunch of different cheeses,
like five different cheeses. But I also use on top
of the sweet in dense milk, so I can't believe
it's not butter as well.

Speaker 6 (51:11):
And so it was little game change.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
I not only need the recipe, I need the directions
on how to make I got you don't just send
me the recipe be talking about it.

Speaker 5 (51:25):
But I mean, maybe this is why Thanksgiving is my
favorite holiday. And I growing up as a kid, it
was Christmas because you get gifts, so it's very saying.
Plus my birthday is December twenty first, so it always
all right there, it's right there. But here's the thing
is that Thanksgiving it's just usually it's just one thousand
percent about food, family and football at the third f
that's really important. But more importantly, it's that institutional knowledge

(51:47):
that you get from the elders in terms of how
to make things. And I underestimated how important that was.
My grandmother was alive. I spent no time in the kitchen.
It was like her and my mama's thing. They was
up in there. But when my grandmother passed and it's
just me and my mom and my mother's only child,
is like, my mom has taught me everything that she
learned from my grandmother in terms of how to make it.
And that's really especially when it comes to the dressing

(52:09):
the mac and cheese. That end of the day, I
still can't. I have never tried to do my own turkey.
And so this gets back to what Tarrika was saying
about social media. So word on the streets streets is
saying that the Costco smoked turkey is fire. So they're
saying it's fire. Now, I don't know if it's as
good as the Popeyes one. Everybody swears by the Popeyes.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Everybody turkey.

Speaker 5 (52:34):
They got the Casian turkey, but you can never get
that joint because they all I'm like, do y'all purposely
under supply order?

Speaker 3 (52:41):
I think you got to pre order. You got to.

Speaker 5 (52:44):
I know, I tried, and it's like I can't get
in on the hustle, Like I need to connect you
out there Asian turkey Popeyes connected.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
I need the Pope connected, but I need to connect.

Speaker 6 (52:57):
I need to know. But my husband, he was to Costco.

Speaker 5 (53:00):
He was like, yo, it was like the last one
left and people was not playing, but just the one.

Speaker 6 (53:07):
So we will. I'll give you all the review. I'm
sure Medium had to pick up my honey baked ham.
Gotta have a.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
Honey gotta have a honey based ham.

Speaker 6 (53:15):
Gotta have a honey baked ham.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Right, that's bast when it picked that up.

Speaker 5 (53:18):
And then I'm gonna actually, as of the time of
this recording, I'm gonna start prepping today. And then because
I don't I try to be one of them black
people who don't tell you that the dinner starts at three,
and it's really got to be that person.

Speaker 3 (53:30):
I try not to be, but I am.

Speaker 6 (53:32):
I know, but every year it was God that much.

Speaker 5 (53:35):
It'll be like, I'll give people the loose time of three,
but it'll probably be like four four thirty. But I
swear one of these times, I'm gonna hit this three o'clock.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
See your girl is spoiled. I grew up with my
great grandparents. Grandma said, dinner started two, dinner started too.
If you're there at two thirty, you missed out of chiplins.
That's your fault because you showed up like I wouldn't be.

Speaker 3 (53:56):
I'll be mad as hell because I will tear some
chiplins up. That's just me. I'm standing on it. I'm
not debating, and give me some hustles and it's going down.
Do you hear me? I only ate my mom's chitlings,
and that's how my mom passed.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
I have.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
That was seven years ago.

Speaker 6 (54:09):
That is the.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Life anymore. You're talking about getting recipes from the elders.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
The only recipe I will not get is how to
make chitlings, because the moment she tells me how to
make it, she will no longer make them. And I
can't do that.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
I need her continue to make it. That's the slat part.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Anything you want your mama to make you forever, don't
ever learn how to make it.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
Just make her do it.

Speaker 5 (54:32):
Know what you are so right? Because ever since my
mom taught me how to do the mac and cheese
ad dresses, she ain't made it.

Speaker 6 (54:36):
She made it about six years.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
I blame you. You know how to do that.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
I don't have to blame your kitchen supervising me like
you might need a little bit more at I was
like I tell people learning how to cook it is
like learning how to play spades. You're supposed to just
watch and figure it out. Because here's the thing.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
Here's the thing.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
I don't even understand how we get real recipes. My
mom has never measured ship shed just be like, put
a dash it at and then put us pinch it
at in and pull a little bit of what the
hell is a little bit afore?

Speaker 3 (55:05):
But we don't measure up. I have our.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
Ancestors parents measuring cups because there was this one recipe
I wanted. My mom used to make this homemade pie,
and so I was like, okay, and now I can't
make it because I don't have the recipes. She was like,
you don't measure girl, because I go with the measuring spoons,
measuring tub. I'm like, Mama, she was like, girl, no,
just a little bit dash of that, a spoon of this.

(55:27):
Let me taste this a little bit more. Yeah, we
ain't got no real recipes.

Speaker 5 (55:32):
That's the hard part about this maca cheese recipe is
that I can't tell you any measures.

Speaker 6 (55:37):
Because I never heard that.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
I can tell you what goes in them, and gitterally
how much you might want to put it there. Hey, okay,
I can't tell you, like, okay, put three cups of cheese.

Speaker 3 (55:48):
You don't have to give me the measurements. But I
need to know, like you know something and then you
gotta fold it over or whatever like like that's what
I need to know. I love black people. I love
us just related, no matter.

Speaker 6 (56:03):
What it feels like, we were all. We all grew
up in the.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
Same I grew up in the same crib. That's so funny.
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
And to this day I still listen to the Thanksgiving
episode of His and Hers because the draft classic classic.
I still be on Josh, like, Josh, how you draft
pumpkin pie?

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Bro? What are we doing anyway?

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Like that one was gonna be left on the table.
That's the last one, no matter what.

Speaker 6 (56:25):
I just say.

Speaker 5 (56:26):
Real quick though, Cheryl, for those who have not made
sweet potato pie, I'm not a baker either, but sweet
potato pie.

Speaker 6 (56:32):
I found a really good sweet spot.

Speaker 5 (56:34):
With that, just because it's one of the easiest things
to make. It really is because you just basically you
you season the sweet potatoes or until you have the
desired about a sweetness, so you just going base. I
couldn't tell you, like four cups of sugar brown to
you generally brown.

Speaker 6 (56:51):
Sugar butter, white sugar butter.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
I'm not gonna lie to you.

Speaker 6 (56:55):
You just do it to taste like I'm.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Not gonna lie to you like that. By the time
I finished, I don't want to do desserts. No, I
don't let me go.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
Buy me and Patty, Getty, we're good. I heard that
because like you were that much. Yes, it's too much.

Speaker 5 (57:14):
I'm always the last one to eat when I cook anyway,
because part of it.

Speaker 6 (57:17):
I mean, first of all, well.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
You're eating, you're eating while you're cooking, you're eating while
you're going, and I'm sipping while I'm going, So like it.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
See, I was something to say.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
I can't beat the person to be trusted with the
entire meal, because if I got to cook the entire meal,
by the time I'm done with my drink, girl, something
is burned up.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
I done left something something still, So don't trust me.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
A chef too, so he can cook any and everything,
but he yeah, this year he has to work on Thanksgiving,
So I'm going to cook something so that something could
be done when he gets home. But by the time
we get to that part. I have already been to
faux houses, and I have already let him know of
them and let them know he ain't come Hans.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
About seven thirty eight o'clock.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
So by the time we get there, I are already
and I've already let them know. I will see you
at one thirty. I will see you at three twenty five.
I will see you at four fifty.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Schedule. Don't worry about my box. I already got it
with you.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Got to tup away, I got to We do eat
an actual meal at each house.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
I eat a little something like, say you got two starches,
if you got rice and mashed potatoes, I'll pick one.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
I'll pick one and then pack the other. There is
quite little.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
See, when you are a person who has lived in
various states outside of where your home family is, you
have to figure out how to get through holidays. And
I'd in bed in North Carolina and Florida, Connecticut. I'd
have been everywhere except in Michigan on Thanksgiving so often
that I have now figured out how to get through
these holidays and eat good, so I ain't worried.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
I'm straight.

Speaker 5 (58:47):
Yeah, this stuff when you live outside of where your
home family is yeah, because with Thanksgiving, me and my
favorite holiday, I was real picky about whose house I
went to, right because if you mess up my Thanksgiving,
I'm gonna be mad for ever.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
See what I mean.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
If not coming there and I see some raisins in
the potato selling, we're gonna fight first.

Speaker 6 (59:02):
Less simple.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
I'm not visiting nobody who I even suspect would put
races in.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
You know, I'll see you as friends giving friend, you.

Speaker 6 (59:11):
Know what I'm saying.

Speaker 5 (59:12):
Because friends giving, my expectations are much, very low. And
it just reminded me of a friend of mine who
years ago told me this story about she went to
this woman's house and when I tell you this, you
will probably guess perhaps the racist the woman who did this,
and she was. The woman was so excited. She was
just like, yeah, I did greens this year. I've never
done it before, which was an automatic where we're going

(59:35):
with this, And she said she couldn't fix her face
because when the woman took the greens out of the oven,
which I was out of it, and they were not
out of the oven, and she wasn't keeping them in
there to warm them, to make sure that she was
cooking them.

Speaker 6 (59:49):
She was cooking them.

Speaker 5 (59:50):
She was baking greensked greens, and when my girl looked
at these greens, blessed her heart.

Speaker 6 (59:58):
She had not cleaned.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
She ain't clean or cut him. Huh.

Speaker 6 (01:00:01):
It was a holy I don't know who led her wrong.
And I was where did she get this recipe? And
I was like, and that's why.

Speaker 5 (01:00:12):
You can't need everybody house on things. Much like when
you apply for an apartment or a car, I'm gonna
need a cooking history.

Speaker 6 (01:00:20):
Are report of your cooking?

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
We've never heard.

Speaker 6 (01:00:25):
I was like, but where does she think?

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Why the oven?

Speaker 6 (01:00:28):
That's what I was like, I.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Why what if you can just google something and know
not to put them in the oven?

Speaker 5 (01:00:35):
I have to say, though, this is how long ago
this happened. This preceded Google, didn't preceded what we were
using our you know how we google everything. Now we YouTube,
we can't figure it out. It was before that friend.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
Come on, now, that was just.

Speaker 6 (01:00:51):
She clearly didn't know the right ones.

Speaker 5 (01:00:53):
I think she guessed. I told my girl. I was like,
I think she was thinking it was kind of like asparagus.
I don't know why, but like I she was thinking.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
That because she didn't watch them green child, I can't no, yeah,
so that I can't Kntan and everybody I have, I
have to have eating at your house before to know
that you can be trusted for Thankgiving and and I
can always tell too, depending on if you're hosting, if

(01:01:21):
you'll be like, oh yeah, the family coming over at two, Okay, you.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
Do it right, you got folks coming over, then you
do this. But at this.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Show, this is my first time hosting that right there
is let me know how it goes, and then maybe
I'll be there.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
Maybe i'll be there next.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Year Deserve and that'll be we'll figure that out. I
feel oh my god, Jamil, it has been a pleasure
to have you on the show kicking it with us today.

Speaker 5 (01:01:47):
I'm so glad you guys have this platform, and just
the more women in the space the better. But you two,
in particular, you have such distinct and authentic voices. So
I'm just happy to be a part of the conversation
and happy that you're able to be put in a
position where others can understand the brilliance that is so
obvious to watch you for a long time. So thank

(01:02:08):
you so much, Loving.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
You're the best.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
You keep keeping here because we need you, we need you,
we need you more now than ever before.

Speaker 5 (01:02:19):
Yes, like a lot of like we on vacate.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
It's above me now, it's above me now.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Like now, I don't know what to tell you, okay, Okay,
so I will say I just.

Speaker 6 (01:02:32):
Need we got to regroup and then yeah, I think
we'll be back.

Speaker 5 (01:02:35):
But as I tell a lot of other young folks,
you have no choice to be you because everyone else
is taking Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Yes, I love that. I love love that.

Speaker 5 (01:02:46):
Holiday, and you too, are so much and any time
ital I'm gonna seit you there.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
Okay, I want to. I'm gonna take it. How money,
I'm gonna take a picture of it. I'm gonna send
it to you.

Speaker 6 (01:02:56):
All right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
I got you only if it looked great.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
If it'll look right, you're gonna picture.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
I am so excited about the conversation that we just
had with Jamil, and I say I'm excited because it
just reaffirms and read validates everything that I already thought
that number one being who you are, being true to
who you are, finding your voice and talking about it
in a very authentic way is the thing to do

(01:03:29):
in twenty twenty four.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
And it won't please everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
But as long as it pleases you and you can
sleep well at night, you good, Cheryl, That's.

Speaker 3 (01:03:37):
It, that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Jay is always dropping gems And I said this, I've
admired her from afar right, just watching her navigate life
and navigate when shit ain't going great, when shit is
going great, and to see her in the space she's
in today.

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
We need Jay, we need her voice, and we need
more people like her. So y'all keep doing you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Yeah, keep doing you, doing you, And just you know,
we only got a few more weeks left in this year,
to be honest, right, So it doesn't feel like it,
but realistically, there's only a few more weeks left in
this year. So we got to bring twenty twenty four
to a close with a bang and really look at
how we are going to make an impact in twenty
twenty five. So we got a few weeks to really
put it together, and voices like hers help us continue

(01:04:20):
to do that. So as we leveled off tonight's show
what you got for us today?

Speaker 3 (01:04:25):
Cheryl? All right? So giving everybody a little something to
level up.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
This is a note to self, and it goes along
a little bit with what Jay just said. In the
conversation we had so note to self. You can't control
how other people receive your energy. Anything you do or
say gets filtered through the lens of whatever personal shit

(01:04:49):
they are going through at the moment, which is not
about you. Just keep doing your thing with as much
integrity and love as possible.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
I don't think you realiz how much I needed that
today because some ship went down and I had to
take a step back to keep this seven mile in
keep this Detroit girl in check. And that right there,
just that right there was just something for me that
is an absolutely having this conversation, and we hope that

(01:05:22):
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
What saying that, and this is a party.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Make sure because you subscribed to some shodcasting and find us.

Speaker 6 (01:05:30):
I saw the iHeart Radio as you can.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
I'm going to just gave you the maybe her media.
I am a sports understanding.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
The lady you said to him, this is a black guy, right,
she said, don't step on my sign on the floor.
If you step on that sign, she said, I'm gonna
take you out, bide it and hang you or something.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
And please don't forget that. I had to do also
keep up with all the women's ports that work on Instagram.
I had to decide if I was going to be a.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Week or keeping you and and so I left alone
with us time, so he said. And I chose the thermostat,
he said, because the thermometer tells you the temperature in
the room. The thermometer is like, you go in, you
look at the thermometer, you see what the temperature is,
which was the lady, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
And then the thermostat.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
You control the thermostats that, yeah, you can make it hotter,
you can make colder, he said. So I was a thermostat.
So I decided that I wasn't gonna let the thermometer
control what was going on. Yeah, And so I was like,
you know what, I need to remember that because there
are so many times we're in shit and we could
choose to be a thermometer or a thermostat, and I
need to choose to be a thermostat more than allowing

(01:06:45):
the thermometer to control the situation.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
You are so one hundred percent correct.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
And on that note, I think that's an excellent way
to close out. So as you guys go into this week,
choose to be a thermostat. I love that one percent.
So as always Cheryl, it is a pleasure to hang
out with you, and I just really appreciate everybody for
tuning in to us week after week, So thank you all.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
For continuing to listen to Levels to This.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
We'll be back next week with more next level conversations
about the shit that we all go through as women.

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
But please remember this isn't.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
Just our show. It's our show, so we want to
hear from you. You can leave us a review in
Apple Podcast, or you can email our show at Levels
to This Podcast at Gmail. Tell us what you thought
of this week's guest. What do you want to talk
about next? You can also follow us on Instagram at
ltt pod, But until then, keep your mentals ground level

(01:07:42):
and we'll be back next week.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
Peace.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Listen to Levels to This on America's number one podcast network, iHeart,
open your free iHeart app and search Levels to This
with Cheryl Swoops and Treka Foster Brasby and start listening.