September 18, 2025 • 50 mins
Chelsea is joined today by whistleblower Reality Winner, a former linguist and intelligence analyst, arrested in 2017 for leaking classified documents about Russian interference in the 2016 election. They discuss Reality’s arrest, incarceration and recovery - and why it’s so important to speak out when you see injustice.
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Executive Producer Catherine Law
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, hi, Hi, did you see that our friend boom
Boom Hiller won an Emmy.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I did see that boom Boom Hiller won any that
was very exciting. Yes, I was very happy for him.
He gave one a great, great speech. I didn't understand
what was going on with the Emmy's with the money.
What was the money thing? I tuned in like halfway through.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I also tuned in like halfway through.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
I think they should just let people who want talk,
don't you. I mean, you posted these awards shows, like
what's your opinion on that?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I just feel like that's the moment people get to talk.
I mean, obviously within reason, don't go crazy. I thought
they were deducting people. They were deducting money from a
charity for people who were going over their time.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
They were taking money back from the charity.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, that's what they were doing. I think I'm pretty
sure that they were. Basically, they had a set number
and anyone who talked over it became a giving them less.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yes, so I was like, that's pretty fucked up. But
who knows.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I mean, I can't really even track a conversation, so
who knows What I was thinking. I was kind of
half watching. I had just I went to New York
again this weekend.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
So I had there. I show, Actually I had a show. Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I just announced a new tour, you guys, that's what
I want to talk about. I announced the Highend Mighty Tour,
which I'm going to start next year. I started Washington,
d C. Next January or February, I don't know. It's
called the High and Mighty Tour. Tickets are on sale
and I'm going to lots of different cities and you
can check my website Chelseahandler dot com for tickets or
(01:22):
you could go to the link in my Instagram to
buy tickets.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
So that's what's happening there. And we have a very
exciting guest. I okay, so I saw a movie. I
actually moderated a conversation for a director named Susannah Focal,
who directed a movie about Reality Winner.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
This is a girl's real name. This is our guest's
real name. Today. When your name first.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Texted me and said I want to talk to Reality Winner,
I was like, winner of what reality show?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Like?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
I did not get her.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Her name is Reality Winner and if you don't remember
who she is, she was a whistleblower during Trump's first term.
She was working at the NSA and she leaked some
document to AYE to the Intercept and then the FBI
basically arrested her. They came, they interrogated her, they went
showed up at her house on a Saturday afternoon. And anyway,
(02:09):
she's a former linguist, she's an intelligence analyst. She was
arrested in twenty seventeen for leaking classified documents about the
Russian interference in the twenty sixteen election. And there is
some backstory that our listeners should know about before we
get into this conversation.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Reality was in the Air Force as a linguist.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
She translated conversations for government targets, and then when she left,
she started a contract with the NSSA. And she outlines
that there are certain news sources that people who work
for the NSA are allowed to read that are not
available to the general public, but people with security clearance
are not allowed to read mass news the way civilians are.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Right, so, she explains in pretty great detail in the
book how as a person who has a high security
clearance working for the NSA, she had access to a
specific news outlet that was only for people with a
high security clearance. But there was also sort of this
rule that she couldn't go look at New York Times,
she couldn't go look at Washington Post. And if they
had found something like that, like links to that on
(03:06):
her phone, anything like that, then she would have been
in trouble. So there is this sort of weird dichotomy
that people with high levels of top secret clearance do
have access to more information, but they also don't necessarily
have what all of the rest of us have access to.
So the document, and it was just one document that
she leaked, was from this news source that she had
access to as a person with high security clearance.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So she felt that she needed to release this document
about Russian interference in the election so the American people
would know it happened. And then the FBI found out
confronted her in her home in a three hour interview
during which she was not read her Miranda rights. She
also had a dog and cat at her home that
were unpredictable. She describes feeling terrified that they'd hurt her
animals or use their behavior.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
As an excuse to hurt her.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
She was taken to jail, where she stayed for about
a year before going to prison for four more years,
and then her mom lived in her house nearby while
she was incarcerated, which she said has saved her life.
And then once she was out, she had a period
of readjustment. She says even the colors outside were overwhelming
for her after five years of staring at gray walls.
(04:10):
She briefly got married and then quickly divorced to an
old boyfriend who had a child. This was part of
her rebellion during her readjustment period, and now she has
written a book about her experience, has moved on romantically
and is in veterinary tech school. So there are a
few movies out about her.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
There was a Broadway show, There.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Was a Broadway Yes, a Broadway show, and now she
has a book called I Am Not Your Enemy. That's
a little background information for you, so please welcome Reality Winner.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Hi Reality Hlsea. Hi, how are you? I'm good? Thanks
for having me. How are you? Oh? I'm great.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I always want to say we'll commence, but I feel
like commenced as we're starting. Does it commence mean we're
starting something or we're finishing something. I'm getting confused with
my Spanish.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
She commenced. The starting commencement's speech though at a graduation.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Is yeah, well you're commencing into life.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Okay, okay, okay, we have Reality Winner here. Reality You
and I go way back, but you don't know it.
I'm sure a lot of people feel that way about you.
First of all, I'm just happy to see you out
of prison. I actually moderated a conversation between Susanna Fogel.
Do you know Susannah I love her? Yes, yes, okay, great.
She directed a move in one of the movies. So
(05:23):
there's three movies out about your story. Reality Winner was
a whistleblower in the year twenty sixteen with relation to
the Russian interference in the twenty sixteen election, and subsequently
went to jail and then prison because of that. So
there was a documentary about you, which I also watched.
And then there was a movie with Sidney Sweeney. I
(05:44):
skipped that one, And then the one was Susannah Fogel
who starred. Who was the star of that Reality Amelia Jones?
Amelia Jones, who's fucking phenomenal? Did you love that movie?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I don't watch anything about me because I have a
very like physical trauma response.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Yeah, I understand that. I understand that. How are you
doing today? I'm being so good today.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
My biggest issue was having to get to this studio.
I hate driving on overpasses.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
They're my nemesis. Really, Why they're so high? Why? What
about bridges? No, I won't drive over a bridge? No?
Do you know that.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
When I was a little girl, our family used to
drive up to Martha's Vineyard every summer.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So you drive from New Jersey. We grew up in
New Jersey.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
We drive to Woodsholm, Massachusetts, and you'd have to drive
over a bridge called the tappan Zee Bridge that's outside
of New York. And it was you know how big
bridges are. They have all of that iron work over them, right,
but that's not the actual pavement. But my brothers and
sisters convinced me that we had to drive up over
the iron work every time. So I would crouch down
(06:51):
and cover my head because I was so scared, and
I'm like, oh my god, how are we gonna stay on?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
They're like, we might not let cars fall off all
the time, and so anytime, so I have I have
bridge trauma too.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I hate them, but it sounds like you have lower
Bridge trauma.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Right, there is some bridges out here, Like the only
way to get to the beach is on a bridge,
and it's not fun to be in the car with me.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I have to drive. I have to be in charge
of my own death. But it's horrible. Well, I think
after everything you've been through, it's fine for.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
You to want to be in charge of your own
death and your own life at this point, right, how
long have you been out of prison officially?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I have been out for four years.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Okay, So you wrote this book obviously after that, and
the book takes us through your journey.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
The book is called I Am Not Your Enemy, Reality Winner.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So let's go through your history because you joined the
Air Force and then you decided that you wanted to
go work at the NSA. Correct, and take us through
what happened when you started working at the NSA.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So in the transition from the Air Force to the
in to say, I already knew it was a temporary position.
I had my sight set on getting a position in
Afghanistan proper, but that in order to be eligible for
those deployments, I would have to keep my security clearance
current because that's what the recruiters were looking for. So
(08:20):
I was coming up on a very important deadline and
I just took any contract that would happen. So that
was the particular position that I was working at in
Georgia at the time of my arrest or at the
time I committed the felony, there was nothing for me
to do. I just sat there and watched YouTube all
day and planned out my workouts and my yoga classes.
(08:44):
They didn't really know I was there, and looking back,
being so disconnected from any sort of purpose or mission
is definitely one of those things that left me vulnerable
to doing something so naive.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Naive is the word that you use a lot, and
I also don't really think you're naive. I think that
from your books and from what I've learned about you,
that you really just had a sense of right and
wrong and that you wanted to share. And I think
that's very admirable. And I think what you did, yeah,
you're young. I think you were young and didn't realize
what you revealed in the documentary, that you didn't realize
(09:23):
what the consequences would be. In fact, you didn't even
really consider the consequences of sharing the information that you
were privy to I didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I mean, I just really thought that at the end
of the day, no damage was done. It was very
clear that I did what I did for the greater good,
and that you know, I was definitely going to lose
my job, but did not imagine the statements that the
government would then make about me and my character following this.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
And at this time in your life, were you familiar
with people like Julian Assange.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So on the surface Yet, yes, I knew about Edward
Snowden and Chelsea Manning, but because of a technicality, they
were able to keep us from knowing any of the
specifics about these individuals. Every week or so, especially when
the news cycle would be very much focused on one
of those individuals.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
That if you read this.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Washington Post article and it was derived off of classified
information and you read it on your personal device, you
are then carrying around classified information and you could be
charged with the Espionos Act.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So it was a.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Way to make sure that we were kept in the
dark on what life is like when you're charged with
these sort of crimes, and that I didn't know anything
about Snowden or Chelsea at all. I didn't know what
their legal defense was like I didn't really know what
they had gone through. I was just kind of acting
in the dark at that point.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
And the reason that you acted was because you felt.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
What I felt like, if the American people had the
information on that document and they could see it in
black and white, that a would answer a question that
was I felt like it was burning a hole in
our society in twenty seventeen, and I wanted to give
(11:18):
the American people a way to decode media bias if
they had the full story that they could see, like
the people I trust on the TV aren't giving me
the whole story, Like I can see everything right here,
and they're leaving half of it out.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
And so can you take us through what happened on
that Saturday morning after you had printed this, So you
had printed the document with it on a Friday right
in your office.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I had actually printed it on like a Monday or Tuesday,
and I think I mailed it out on a Tuesday night,
and it wasn't for about two and a half weeks
until the FBI came to my house.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
And I think we should also point out, you know,
the the intercept, which is who you sent the document
to kind of was like, yeah, they bungled the situation.
They have all these high level people who know how
to handle whistleblowers, and your document went to two journalists
who did not know how to do that, and instead
their mistake wound up eventually in your conviction.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Mistake, it was not a mistake, it was on purpose.
It's by design. I was the third, well, actually Terry
was the third, but there were three of us in
a very short succession that were sort of outed by
their incompetence but then championed by them. So they would
create victims and martyrs and then try to be the
(12:41):
only media outlet fairly reporting on them.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So take us through what happened to you on that
Saturday when the FBI did show up at your house
because you were getting ready to go on a date
that night.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Anyway, exactly the ultimate ghosting. That's funny.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, uh, not only did I not show up, but
he was probably interrogated as well, poor guy.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Oh true.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
So I parked with my groceries and immediately a black
vehicle comes up behind my car and parks me in,
and Garret and Taylor come out. They introduced themselves, They
showed the warrant and I knew what it was about, obviously,
because I had done the thing. But they said they
were looking for documents, and I was like, who, I
(13:30):
only had one document and I sent it out like
That's kind of one of the reasons why I was
just so compliant. I was just like, okay, search my house.
The only thing that started to get scary was that
there were eleven men. I was pretty sure all of
them were armed, and the government was very quick to
(13:52):
correct me. Of the eleven agents, only nine of them
were armed. Only nine, Only nine. So I was lying again,
you know me, I just can't stop telling lies. And
they kept leaving my doors open, and I had just
sort of had my early twenties awakening of the injustices
of this country and understood that when the police or
(14:19):
the FBI, when someone from the government kills you, they
have the only control of the narrative. And so I
knew that these men were leaving my doors open and
interacting with a dog that had previously been extremely aggressive
to men, and that if my cat had gotten out
and if I had like run down the street after her,
(14:42):
would they shoot me in the back. If I became
emotional about how they were taking care of my animals,
or if I thought they were going to shoot my dog,
would they shoot me and then you know, try me,
I know, basically posthumously convict me in the news cycle
the next day they had interrogated me.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I did confess.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I thought that because they looked like the guys that
I worked with at NSA, if I just was straight
with them, that whatever was coming next in a court
or whatever, I could figure out and it would be
a normal legal process. And that was when Garrick told me,
(15:27):
we're going to have to take you in. You're going
to go in this vehicle over here, so nondescript, unmarked
black vehicle. He said it was going to be okay
because my hands would be cuffed in the front and
not the back, and that he would be sitting next
to me the whole time, and that he wanted to
apologize because it would be a bit of a drive.
(15:49):
What little I did know about Chelsea Manning was that
when they first took her, she was in solitary confinement
in Quantico for nine months and nobody knew where she was.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
So when he.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Said that reassuring statement, I understood that I was going
to Quantico that night. And nobody would know where I was.
That was not the case, and even if they had
intended to drive me to the jail themselves, the last
remaining part of the warrant was a search of my person,
(16:25):
and obviously I was kind of in between dates, so
I wasn't wearing much. A visual search would have been
just fine, but a female, a woman, had to do it.
So that was when they called a nearby deputy from
the Richmond County Sheriff's office, and I don't know what
it was, but she came and assessed the situation, and
(16:48):
she took me to a private room and patted me
down and executed the search warrant on my person, and
she came out and had a conversation that I couldn't hear.
And shortly after that, another Shaff's Department vehicle came up,
and another female officer came out and she said, Hey,
I'm going to be the one taking you to jail.
(17:10):
So for the first time, women were on the scene,
uniforms were on the scene, marked vehicles were on the scene,
and the word jail was spoken. And I mean, honestly,
that was the first time I knew that I was
going to survive that.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Night, because so that's okay, So okay, it's a paper
trail and a record.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yeah, so I knew my parents could find me.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Then your poor parents, My god, I mean honestly, watching
your I mean, I want to make you feel bad
because I'm sure you have enough guilt to deal with
about with regard to your parents. But what your mother
and your stepfather? Is it your stepfather? Yeah, yeah, I
went through is just like I wouldn't wish that on
any mother, you know, and fighting so hard on your
(17:56):
behalf and having to hear and also you know coming Really,
there is just nothing better than a good mother. There
really is no nothing better in life than having a
good mother. It's more important than a good father. A
good mother is everything. Because she wasn't going to let
you compromise your values or your goals either. She wasn't
(18:16):
going to let you take a deal, which you were
given the opportunity to do.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I was initially upfront and then later again, like in
November of twenty seventeen, offered five years, and we had
tried some legal strategies to get that down to four years,
and it did not work.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
And so when you were given that sentence for basically
telling the truth. How did you wrap your mind around
that psychologically? I know you talk about in the documentary
and in the book you did as well about contemplating
suicide and the one thing you didn't want to do
was hurt yourself, kill yourself while your mother was alone
(18:55):
in your house, which I thought was just like, oh
my god.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
They didn't want your mother to like get get that
information while she was Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, I think that at that moment in time, the
only thing I knew I was going to do it,
and the only thing I was in control of was
the timing where my mother would be when she got
the news. We had just gotten word that I would
be denied bail again and that I would probably never
(19:22):
leave that jail except to go to prison or to trial.
And I said, I can't do this anymore. And so
I started planning and doing dry runs of my suicide.
And the last piece of the puzzle was, Hey, I'm
not getting out on bail.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
You need to go back to Texas.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
You need to go home and get the house in order,
and you know, we'll figure this out later.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
You know, my attorneys will do some stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
And she put it off by a week, and then
she put it off by another week, and then she
put off by another week, and then she started like
working at a dog shelter and thinking about adopting a
dog in Georgia. And it was like those three weeks
where I was actively trying to get her to start
driving and doing that. Other stuff was going on in
(20:11):
those three weeks, and I had kind of hit a
rock bottom, which involved me screaming and punching a door
after an officer, and I came out and told one
of my attorneys, this is what's going on when you
guys call me to the courthouse for this. I can't
go outside to yard call. And I know you guys
(20:33):
are sick and tired of me saying that I want
to go outside. I'm beliemic. I can't do this anymore.
I'm belieming. I'm not functioning, I'm not surviving. And you know,
luckily people on my legal team were very close to
that particular illness, and you know, you think about like,
(20:57):
you know, men don't take eating disorder seriously. They have
very intimate knowledge of how deadly bolimia is, and they said,
this is not okay, Like you were very sick and
this has to be taken care of. And when they
started initiating that type of care and that type of consideration,
I can't say things got better, but I feel like
(21:21):
the moment I came out, it felt like all the
drive in me to kill myself had just kind of
gone away.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
And then how did that impact your eating disorder when
you were in jail or prison at this point? Once
you told everybody, then what happened with your eating disorder?
Speaker 1 (21:40):
You know, it's so difficult, like even in normal daily life,
like you come out about something like that, like obviously
you can't just like not eat, you know what I mean.
It's not like it's not like being like, oh, I'm
addicted to myth, you know what I mean. People are
going to watch you to see if you're doing myth.
If you're like, oh I have bolimia, people want to
see if you're eating right. It's never really like a relief.
(22:00):
It just cuts some tension. And I was medicated, and
my legal team altered their interactions with me in a
way that would not disrupt the daily schedule of the prison.
Then they understood that when they came to have legal
(22:23):
meetings with me or when they were calling me to
the courthouse and I would miss yard call or being
able to go outside. They stopped doing that. They said,
we are going to meet her on her own terms,
and we're only going to try to meet with her
after she's gone outside to go run or exercise, and
just things like that. It made enough of a difference
(22:45):
to get me through the winter of twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
And you talk a lot about the exercise and that
kind of replacing your addiction in a sense, I mean,
were you able to actually stop throwing up at that
point or did you continue on for a while.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I was able to not throw up and to continue
to exercise it an intensity that allowed me to eat.
And that was another pressing issue of with my disordered eating,
having very severe OCD. As to what I would even
put into my body, I don't even think clinically I
(23:23):
could get my hands on enough food that I was
willing to eat to do a proper binge. So it
was pretty much just trying not to throw up the
one meal I would eat that day.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Right, because you talk about how it was difficult to
get not only like kosher meals, but like meals that
didn't have meat or didn't it that had things that
you could eat that you were okay eating.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I mean, it's crazy, but as a federal inmate, that
County jail was required to give me a substitute protein
and not just more rice or more corn. When I
got to federal prison where it is regulated, there's chicken
or there's baked beans, right, they have to have that
on the line. It didn't make it easier because you
(24:07):
would be discriminated against if you dared hold up the
line to ask for the alternative, because they're just throwing
chicken on trays and trying to push everybody through. You
just got to have a thick skin. And there were
several really tense standoffs with officers because, like I said,
(24:28):
I dared to ask for the beans.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
This week, we're looking for questions from writers. Whether you're
an up and coming writer or you do it for
a living, Please write into Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail
dot com.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Did you make any friends in prison? Lots?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, people you still keep in touch with absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I went and ran a half marathon with one of
my friends, Stephanie, and my family got to meet her
and they added her on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
She's great, she's doing so I'm so proud of her.
Oh wow, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
So talk to us about what it was like to
come out of PRISM after spending that much time there.
When you did come out four years ago, talk to
us a little bit about leading up to that moment
and then the actuality. I know, you have ideas, people
talk about these kinds of huge changes that you have
ideas of what it's going to be like, and then
the reality of what it is like can be kind
(25:22):
of counterintuitive to a degree absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I mean, when you're inside those four walls of the prison,
it's like, give me an ankle monitor, I don't care.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
I would do anything just to be home.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
And in the year leading up to my release, the
COVID pandemic had happened. We had had several unwarranted lockdowns
and being put in county jail type conditions all over again,
and I had just become so disruptive and violent and
using drugs, getting girlfriends, getting into fights that But by
(26:01):
the time that version of me walked out of that prison,
I was almost unrecognizable to my family. Even mild disagreements
would get loud with me.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I didn't know how to relate.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Because the things that I thought were funny, were like,
you know, I mean, they were so inappropriate all the time,
which was fine, but I don't think anybody gave me
or my family the vocabulary to sort of talk through
the process of decompressing. A huge trauma leading up to
(26:35):
my release is that I spent twenty three days in
a single hospital room as part of a COVID quarantine procedure.
It was just so desocializing to a certain extent, and
I feel like, not ashamed, but just like God, the
person I had to become to get through that with
(26:59):
any type of stability or you know, we were we
were literally like, oh, okay, you're gonna put us in
a room like mental patients.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
We're gonna act like mental patients. I mean we did.
And then to come out.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
The pressure was if your parents do anything public, if
they announced that you're home, we might not be able
to keep you at home. At every step of the way,
that halfway house threatened my ability to be on home confinement.
I did two drug tests a week. I was not
ever authorized to drive myself, so my parents had to
(27:34):
take off work to drive an hour and an hour back.
Just constant drug testing when I didn't even have a
drug charge it like, yes, I know I did drugs, right,
Like we can all say like, oh, she did drugs
while she was in It's in the memoir. At that
point in time, I'm like, the federal government had zero
documentation of substances being in my body, but I'm being
(27:54):
tested constantly if the ankle monitor would buzz, if it
would be on low battery. One time, I missed a
phone call because I was on the phone with my boss,
and I called the guy back and he was like, Okay,
well I had already documented as having escaped. I was
constantly under so much pressure from the top down, from
(28:17):
the government down, that the only way that pressure could
come out was sideways. And so my family were they
were the sideways.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
They they.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
They were in my line of fire since I couldn't
do anything to ease the government pressure off of me.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
So things were really toxic those first six months. Wow,
how about your sister.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Luckily she was protected out of the picture. She was
in North Carolina. She did bring her my niece down,
her daughter, she brought her down to visit. I got
to meet my niece for the first time or a
second time, because they surprised me getting out of prison.
She and baby were there waiting outside the prison. For me,
(29:04):
I know for her it was hard, but she also
had a one year old daughter, so that probably gave
her a really nice little buffer zone between the absolute
dumpster fire that I was.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
And what do you think what was the shift that
happened after about six months?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Just did it start to depress your eyes?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Like everything surrounding your case and you're kind of like
their oversight of you.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I think a really big part of it was, yes,
I secretly married Carlos in my backyard and then sixty
seven days later that relationship fell apart, and you know,
my parents didn't talk about it, but I think that
once it had completely fallen apart, you know, day sixty seven,
(29:55):
I said, okay, like his shit is out of this house,
like I made him come get it, and you know,
was like, I'm going to start figuring out how to
secretly get divorced from my living room. Right, it felt
like one of the biggest barriers between me and my
parents was lifted. And honestly, like it's really ugly to
(30:16):
say this, but a big part of it was the
fact that he had a daughter who was she was
four at the time, and he would bring her over,
and you know, my mother felt like I wasn't supposed
to bond to this child. Well, my sister and her
baby existed, Like, oh, you got out of prison, you
(30:38):
got to meet your baby niece. Oh, but now you're
playing stepbom to a four year old, Like I thought
you wanted to be an aunt for your sister's baby.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Or were you in any condition to be in that
role in the first place.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Well, I was fucking better than he was at it,
that's for fucking sure. But when I found out he
was getting high again and stuff like that, I mean,
you know it, and part of getting married, I knew
he was terrible. But I thought again, like, this girl
was brilliant four years old, taught herself how to read.
(31:12):
Her mom really didn't want to be a mom, which
is why she was. She spent ninety percent of her
time with her alcoholic high you know, piece of shit father,
And I just thought, well, god damn, like, even with
this inkle monitor, I'm better than both of them combined.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
And isn't it amazing though, when you think back and
look at that kind of decision making, like marrying Carlos
in the first place, Like when you look at your
the state that you were in, how newly out of
prison you were, what your parents must have thought about that.
I mean, you know you discussed that too, and it's obvious,
(31:51):
But when you look back at that decision making, don't
you just know that you were in no position to
make any of those decisions, Like you were dealing with
so much much trauma that you hadn't even begun to unearth.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, and I think that when someone's drowning in trauma,
the worst thing you can do is point out that
they're traumatized, right, and that I was. I hate it
when people say this, but they do say it innate
thinking patterns. The way you think and operate as an
inmate is you find what you want and you find
(32:27):
a way to secure it in a way that an
officer or a position of authority cannot take it away
from you. So I knew that I wanted to be
with Carlos and I wanted to be a family to
that little girl. And I was just thinking like, hey,
my parents can't say anything if we're married, but b
if I do wind up backing custody, the government can
(32:50):
never deny me access to the two of them if.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
We're legally married. Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
So it was the absolutely like you just grab something
and you're just like, no, you can't take this away
from me because I have this legal document and you're
constantly trying to be two steps ahead of the police.
And that's where that decision making was from. And again,
as a family unit, nobody had that sort of nobody
(33:19):
had the vocabulary to sit me down and say, nobody's
going to take him away from you. We don't like him,
we don't agree with him, we're not going to let
you go back into custody, but nobody's going to make
it illegal for you guys to interact. And because I
didn't get that assurance, I married him secretly, and once
(33:40):
that disintegrated, I felt like everything got better with my
parents obviously, like the way relationships go. We did see
each other one more time, and that was when I
saw first hand the way he was going to use
(34:00):
access to his daughter to get behavior that he wanted
from me. And that was when I walked away permanently
and I never saw either of them again.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Wow, it's like trauma on top of trauma on top
of trauma.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
I just keep asking for it. I make shit decisions.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
No, no, no, no, You're going to get better at
making life decisions you already have. You're going to get better.
That's just a period in time that's not permanent. Nothing's permanent.
You know, Look you're out. This is different. I mean,
I have a lot of faith in your future, do you?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
I mean, I guess I think you just lead. You're
just such a heart leader.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
You know, you lead with your heart so much that
that's been your issue. I think you know with when
you say you're terrible at making decisions, lead you're making
decisions with your heart rather than using your head. But
with all of this experience that you now have, you're
going to make better decisions.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
It's like a math equation.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
You're smart. You're too smart to keep repeating those decisions.
And I don't think the first decision was necessarily framed
as a bad decision.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
It was like you based on the courage of your convictions.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
That was what I believed it. I wouldn't frame that
as bad. You just didn't realize the consequences. So it
was it was naive, as you say, it was young,
but it wasn't like you did something wrong.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
You didn't do something wrong.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
You know, I would like to think that I would
have those same convictions in your situation. So now where
are you? Where are you with all of your trauma?
How do you feel about everything? And how do you
feel about your life moving forward? And how do you
frame the past?
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So one of the best parts about being back in
my hometown is I get to be anonymous. People when
they realized that I'm reality winner, it's usually like, oh,
your Billy's daughter, and so everybody wants to know how
my mom and my sister are doing. People don't really
make the connection to what I did. The people down
here are very concerned, but they also don't follow national
(36:02):
news there, which has kind of been my hiding place.
I'm just coach ree and I've been coaching CrossFit now
for four years. It's it's a cult, but it's also
what keeps me from being bulliemic. It's like the only
cure that I've ever found so far. And you know,
(36:22):
I rescue dogs and I recently started a veterinary technology
program at the local university, which is the hardest thing
I've ever done. And the travel restrictions are even more
like I'm not traveling, I'm not going anywhere, Like, I
basically signed up for three more years of federal probation.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
What do you mean basically signed up?
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Literally, if you miss more than two days, you're out
of the program, the vet tech program. Yes, I felt
more nervous asking for one day of missed class to
go on book tour the week of publication than I
ever did asking my probation officer to try.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
You said you were surprised that they used the dog
in the movie, that that they had the dog in
the movie.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Why did that surprise you?
Speaker 4 (37:07):
Or that they had to stealing a dog in the movie, Yeah,
which you had never done at that time.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Oh yeah, I hadn't actually never stolen a dog. My
friends stole a dog for me back in May, and
I just thought that was like a funny continuation of
like how that movie played out. That was the only
scene I've ever seen from that movie. I just thought
it was so delightful, and.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
It is delightful. It is. It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
I wasn't even really into animal rescue at the time
of my arrest. You know, it's just kind of been
a self fulfilling prophecy. Like the more people talk about it,
the more I started doing it in my own life.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
And what do you think or like some of like
what do you think is your biggest takeaway from spending
all that time locked up and being treated as a criminal,
Like what do you think that did to your spirit?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Like do you feel stronger now?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I don't necessarily feel stronger. I do feel a little
bit more brittle, kind of like I know, if you
hit this glass against the table the right way, it's
going to shatter. You know, I know what can take
me down really quickly. You know, I've often said, like
what doesn't kill you just doesn't kill you. But I
(38:22):
do think that getting to interact with people from a
background that I never would have before and sort of
breaking down, Like I mean, when I was growing up,
I was constantly just around other brilliant children, even in
high school. You know, all my friends right now are
like they're all doctors. They're just insanely successful people. And
(38:47):
even in the military, being around other people like me
that could learn languages. I've never been around normal people
until I was in that county jail. And that's kind
of what burst my bubble and helped me understand my
own country. I thought I was interested in social justice,
(39:09):
in the United States, and then I got locked up,
and I got really interested in it very fast, because
you do realize that what is happening to millions of
other Americans can happen to you at any time, and
that all of us are one interaction with law enforcement
away from being in solitary confinement without legal justification.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
And what we're seeing now with.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
You know, these ice rates going on, and you know
citizens getting detained under immigration law, which is ridiculous. Like,
it's so scary right now, to the point to where
I never thought that this is where we were going
as a country. My basic understanding was, yeah, if they
(39:55):
charge you with the crime, they can do anything to
you after that. And now they don't even have to
charge you.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Oh it is Yeah, that's very scary to think about,
especially when you put it like that.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
What do you want out of life now that you
have one? Honestly, I just want to know that.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
My community is a better place because I'm in it,
And like most people, I want to be comfortable in
my life. I want enough to get by. I want
to fence in my ten acres and open a dog sanctuary,
you know. I mean, my view of the world has
gotten a lot smaller with this criminal conviction, not being
(40:41):
able to have the high positions that I wanted to do.
I can't even coach troubled kids. You know, I can't
be a mentor yet you have to have ten years
clearance from your last day of your sentence. My sentence
didn't end until last November, so in twenty thirty four
(41:03):
I might be eligible to be a mentor for children
caught up in the criminal justice system.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
I'm surprised they allowed you to write a book. I
am allowed.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
I can't make any money from it, and the NSA
took two years to clear that manuscript.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Really, you'll make it, So where does the money go?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
So I gave everything to my agent because I love him,
not in a weird, like rep creepy way, but he
found me and he didn't even know I couldn't make
money from it. This was all conversations we had later
on once we found a publisher. As of right now,
I don't have any documentation to say otherwise, but proceeds
(41:42):
from this book will go to charity. We just we
waited two years for the NSA to clear the manuscript.
When the time comes, we will make a statement on
which charities are and you know what percent of proceeds
and how that works out legally. But I do plan
on being as transparent as possible.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
And do you want to have a family.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I have eight dogs, three cats, and somebody named Eddie.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
So is that a man in your life or is
that another animal? He's a man? Unfortunately, No, no, no, no,
that's not unfortunate. I'm glad that you have someone that
you care about. I want that for you, and I
also just want you to like you're an inspiration. You know.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
I hope you do feel that way.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
I just am like looking back, like I could have
done things so much better, and I could have been
somebody that the government couldn't say these terrible things about
even though ninety nine percent of them weren't true. You know,
it's really hard to continually absorb the things that were
said about you in the courtroom that are like there's
(42:56):
just enough truth in that statement, like to where you
actually just believe everything they said about you. And I'm
still reckoning with that today. Like I said, I don't
use my name in a lot of social situations, and
just admitting that I went to prison, you know, the
biggest compliment that I get is if I bring it up,
(43:18):
people just think I went for like meth, and I'm like,
I'm willing to go along with that, Like yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Sure, no, no, it's so much more than that, because
I mean, I don't think you're taking into account that
you survived all of this.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
You know, of course it's not ideal.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Of course, you don't want anyone to be saying, you know,
to be propagating lies or perpetuating lies about you.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
No, but you survived all of this.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
You have a job, and you care about your like
place in the community. Look at all these animals that
you're helping, like your parent, you're with your family, you know, like,
there's so many good things. Even though this is not
an ideal situation, and you would if you had to
repeat it, you would not have repeated it. You are
here with us today and there are lessons for you
to still continue to learn, and your story, like sharing
(44:05):
this book with the world is going to be tremendously
helpful I think, and cathartic for your healing process. I mean,
I'm assuming you're already in therapy. I mean, you'd have
to be right. You have been in therapy for a while.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Yeah, therapy and me don't get along well because for
three years of probation, I was court ordered to do it.
I had to be in a program without being provided
the health care for it, so I was like a
lot of paying out of pocket. So like for me,
it just let such a bad taste in my mouth.
But I have been able to kind of get my
veterans benefits back up and running.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Oh that's great. Yeah, so I was properly.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Diagnosed last fall and have been doing a lot better
with my mental health and a sort of regimen for that.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
And you need to reclaim that too, you know, you
need to reclaim therapy because that's yours for the taking,
not theirs to leave a bad taste in your mouth.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, I mean, I'll just do a bunch of podcasts
till I feel better about myself.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Absolutely, just keep talking and talking and spreading the good word.
Speaker 4 (45:07):
Well, and Chelsea, I think you're so right. Like this book,
I feel like is such a turning point where ten
twenty years down the road, you may have a better
understanding of why you went through what you went through,
but this is just the beginning of that. Like, this
feels like a starting point, A commencement, like we talked about.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
So we have to figure out what commencement means because
I'm still I keep looking up that word.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I'm like, is it a beginning or then? But no reality.
I think that it's so funny that your name is
Reality Winner.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
I mean, honestly, try to be anonymous with a name
like reality Winner, right, But I really do think like
you haven't seen I know you've been out for four years,
but you haven't seen the lessons that are going to
come from this just yet. And to be open to
whatever comes your way, and the fact that you're so
open and so willing to share your story and that
you don't Yes, of course there's bitterness, but you don't
(46:00):
come across as someone who is bitter and enveloped in.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Your bitterness, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (46:06):
You're loving and you're sweet and like and to remain
to have those things remaining within you is quite a
feat and it speaks volumes about your true character and
who you really are as opposed to all of the
things that have been said about you that are not true.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, I think twenty twenty five for me has been
difficult because we're right back in the same position we
were in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
And of course it's very triggering for you, so triggering.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
I mean, one of the jokes we have is like,
you know, the last time around, I only made it
four months before I broke.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
The law, and I think, right now, lady doubled your time?
Are eight months?
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Well? I know I have little tick marks, you know
what I mean. But it's like the guilt of that
then was like last time I was willing to act,
and now, like so many millions of Americans, I don't
want to lose everything all over again.
Speaker 3 (47:02):
I don't, right, you know, am I supposed to be
out there? I mean?
Speaker 1 (47:07):
And of course where I live in the middle of nowhere.
You know, we're not in a big city. We're not
in LA We're not Chicago. Right now, what am I
supposed to do? Am I supposed to drive to Chicago
and put my body between victims and masked agents, masked kidnappers?
You know?
Speaker 3 (47:25):
No, I mean, here's what am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2 (47:28):
You've done what you're supposed to do. You're not supposed
to be involved in anything else. You need to keep
yourself safe and sane. That's your main objective, and take
care of all of your animals and have a good
time with your boyfriend. That's what I want you to do.
That is your doctor's orders. I'm a medical professional. I'm
actually not so I can't say that, but I think
I am so. But that's You've done your You've done
(47:49):
your time, literally, and you've done your contribution to society.
Leave that up to everybody else and just focus on
getting yourself healthy and as happy as possible, because I
want you to have.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
A really full life. And you know you're still young.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
You have a whole life ahead of you, and this
guy's not going to be president for the rest of
our lives. This is only a four year stint, even
though you know other things have so just don't even
you know that's not your problem anymore.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
But I do want to thank you.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
I want all of our listeners to pick up a
copy of I Am Not Your Enemy by Reality Winner.
This book is really important and it's important to just
if you care about your country, it's important to read.
And if you care about being a strong woman who
has stands up for something and has convictions, it's important
for you to read.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
And it's a story about surviving.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
It really is You're a survivor and you went through
you went through hell and you're still here to talk
about it, and that in and of itself just shows
that you have a purpose. And so thank you for
coming on the podcast. And I really wish you all
the best.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Thank you so much for having me. I mean, like,
I'm such a huge fan and I just really appreciate
you taking the time.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
Absolutely pleasure.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
And I was just when I met Susannah and she's like, oh,
will you moderate this film? I just I was like,
oh my god, Yes, I know that story. So I
was just yeah, thrilled to be a part of that
as well. And I'm going to text her right now
as soon as we get off and let her know
that I got to meet you.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Hey, can't wait to see her next week.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Oh good, you're gonna see her? Okay, tell her, I
say hi, will you I will? Okay, Okay, bye, Reality,
Thank you so much, sending you huge love.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Bye, Thank you bye.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
I put up new Vegas dates by the way for
next year. This year, I will be there November first
and November twenty ninth. Those are my last two dates
this year. Then I start up again January thirty, first,
March seventh, April eighteenth, and May thirtieth, and tickets are
now on sale for all.
Speaker 3 (49:44):
Of those dates. Do you want advice from Chelsea?
Speaker 4 (49:47):
Right into Dear Chelsea Podcast at gmail dot com. Find
full video episodes of Dear Chelsea on YouTube by searching
at Dear Chelsea Pod. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered
by Brad Dickert executive pretty Katherine law And be sure
to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com
Okay, hi, Hi, did you see that our friend boom
Boom Hiller won an Emmy.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I did see that boom Boom Hiller won any that
was very exciting. Yes, I was very happy for him.
He gave one a great, great speech. I didn't understand
what was going on with the Emmy's with the money.
What was the money thing? I tuned in like halfway through.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I also tuned in like halfway through.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
I think they should just let people who want talk,
don't you. I mean, you posted these awards shows, like
what's your opinion on that?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I just feel like that's the moment people get to talk.
I mean, obviously within reason, don't go crazy. I thought
they were deducting people. They were deducting money from a
charity for people who were going over their time.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
They were taking money back from the charity.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, that's what they were doing. I think I'm pretty
sure that they were. Basically, they had a set number
and anyone who talked over it became a giving them less.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yes, so I was like, that's pretty fucked up. But
who knows.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I mean, I can't really even track a conversation, so
who knows What I was thinking. I was kind of
half watching. I had just I went to New York
again this weekend.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
So I had there. I show, Actually I had a show. Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I just announced a new tour, you guys, that's what
I want to talk about. I announced the Highend Mighty Tour,
which I'm going to start next year. I started Washington,
d C. Next January or February, I don't know. It's
called the High and Mighty Tour. Tickets are on sale
and I'm going to lots of different cities and you
can check my website Chelseahandler dot com for tickets or
(01:22):
you could go to the link in my Instagram to
buy tickets.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
So that's what's happening there. And we have a very
exciting guest. I okay, so I saw a movie. I
actually moderated a conversation for a director named Susannah Focal,
who directed a movie about Reality Winner.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
This is a girl's real name. This is our guest's
real name. Today. When your name first.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Texted me and said I want to talk to Reality Winner,
I was like, winner of what reality show?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Like?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
I did not get her.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Her name is Reality Winner and if you don't remember
who she is, she was a whistleblower during Trump's first term.
She was working at the NSA and she leaked some
document to AYE to the Intercept and then the FBI
basically arrested her. They came, they interrogated her, they went
showed up at her house on a Saturday afternoon. And anyway,
(02:09):
she's a former linguist, she's an intelligence analyst. She was
arrested in twenty seventeen for leaking classified documents about the
Russian interference in the twenty sixteen election. And there is
some backstory that our listeners should know about before we
get into this conversation.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Reality was in the Air Force as a linguist.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
She translated conversations for government targets, and then when she left,
she started a contract with the NSSA. And she outlines
that there are certain news sources that people who work
for the NSA are allowed to read that are not
available to the general public, but people with security clearance
are not allowed to read mass news the way civilians are.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Right, so, she explains in pretty great detail in the
book how as a person who has a high security
clearance working for the NSA, she had access to a
specific news outlet that was only for people with a
high security clearance. But there was also sort of this
rule that she couldn't go look at New York Times,
she couldn't go look at Washington Post. And if they
had found something like that, like links to that on
(03:06):
her phone, anything like that, then she would have been
in trouble. So there is this sort of weird dichotomy
that people with high levels of top secret clearance do
have access to more information, but they also don't necessarily
have what all of the rest of us have access to.
So the document, and it was just one document that
she leaked, was from this news source that she had
access to as a person with high security clearance.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So she felt that she needed to release this document
about Russian interference in the election so the American people
would know it happened. And then the FBI found out
confronted her in her home in a three hour interview
during which she was not read her Miranda rights. She
also had a dog and cat at her home that
were unpredictable. She describes feeling terrified that they'd hurt her
animals or use their behavior.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
As an excuse to hurt her.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
She was taken to jail, where she stayed for about
a year before going to prison for four more years,
and then her mom lived in her house nearby while
she was incarcerated, which she said has saved her life.
And then once she was out, she had a period
of readjustment. She says even the colors outside were overwhelming
for her after five years of staring at gray walls.
(04:10):
She briefly got married and then quickly divorced to an
old boyfriend who had a child. This was part of
her rebellion during her readjustment period, and now she has
written a book about her experience, has moved on romantically
and is in veterinary tech school. So there are a
few movies out about her.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
There was a Broadway show, There.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Was a Broadway Yes, a Broadway show, and now she
has a book called I Am Not Your Enemy. That's
a little background information for you, so please welcome Reality Winner.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Hi Reality Hlsea. Hi, how are you? I'm good? Thanks
for having me. How are you? Oh? I'm great.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I always want to say we'll commence, but I feel
like commenced as we're starting. Does it commence mean we're
starting something or we're finishing something. I'm getting confused with
my Spanish.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
She commenced. The starting commencement's speech though at a graduation.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Is yeah, well you're commencing into life.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Okay, okay, okay, we have Reality Winner here. Reality You
and I go way back, but you don't know it.
I'm sure a lot of people feel that way about you.
First of all, I'm just happy to see you out
of prison. I actually moderated a conversation between Susanna Fogel.
Do you know Susannah I love her? Yes, yes, okay, great.
She directed a move in one of the movies. So
(05:23):
there's three movies out about your story. Reality Winner was
a whistleblower in the year twenty sixteen with relation to
the Russian interference in the twenty sixteen election, and subsequently
went to jail and then prison because of that. So
there was a documentary about you, which I also watched.
And then there was a movie with Sidney Sweeney. I
(05:44):
skipped that one, And then the one was Susannah Fogel
who starred. Who was the star of that Reality Amelia Jones?
Amelia Jones, who's fucking phenomenal? Did you love that movie?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I don't watch anything about me because I have a
very like physical trauma response.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Yeah, I understand that. I understand that. How are you
doing today? I'm being so good today.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
My biggest issue was having to get to this studio.
I hate driving on overpasses.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
They're my nemesis. Really, Why they're so high? Why? What
about bridges? No, I won't drive over a bridge? No?
Do you know that.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
When I was a little girl, our family used to
drive up to Martha's Vineyard every summer.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So you drive from New Jersey. We grew up in
New Jersey.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
We drive to Woodsholm, Massachusetts, and you'd have to drive
over a bridge called the tappan Zee Bridge that's outside
of New York. And it was you know how big
bridges are. They have all of that iron work over them, right,
but that's not the actual pavement. But my brothers and
sisters convinced me that we had to drive up over
the iron work every time. So I would crouch down
(06:51):
and cover my head because I was so scared, and
I'm like, oh my god, how are we gonna stay on?
Speaker 3 (06:55):
They're like, we might not let cars fall off all
the time, and so anytime, so I have I have
bridge trauma too.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I hate them, but it sounds like you have lower
Bridge trauma.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Right, there is some bridges out here, Like the only
way to get to the beach is on a bridge,
and it's not fun to be in the car with me.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I have to drive. I have to be in charge
of my own death. But it's horrible. Well, I think
after everything you've been through, it's fine for.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
You to want to be in charge of your own
death and your own life at this point, right, how
long have you been out of prison officially?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I have been out for four years.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Okay, So you wrote this book obviously after that, and
the book takes us through your journey.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
The book is called I Am Not Your Enemy, Reality Winner.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So let's go through your history because you joined the
Air Force and then you decided that you wanted to
go work at the NSA. Correct, and take us through
what happened when you started working at the NSA.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So in the transition from the Air Force to the
in to say, I already knew it was a temporary position.
I had my sight set on getting a position in
Afghanistan proper, but that in order to be eligible for
those deployments, I would have to keep my security clearance
current because that's what the recruiters were looking for. So
(08:20):
I was coming up on a very important deadline and
I just took any contract that would happen. So that
was the particular position that I was working at in
Georgia at the time of my arrest or at the
time I committed the felony, there was nothing for me
to do. I just sat there and watched YouTube all
day and planned out my workouts and my yoga classes.
(08:44):
They didn't really know I was there, and looking back,
being so disconnected from any sort of purpose or mission
is definitely one of those things that left me vulnerable
to doing something so naive.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Naive is the word that you use a lot, and
I also don't really think you're naive. I think that
from your books and from what I've learned about you,
that you really just had a sense of right and
wrong and that you wanted to share. And I think
that's very admirable. And I think what you did, yeah,
you're young. I think you were young and didn't realize
what you revealed in the documentary, that you didn't realize
(09:23):
what the consequences would be. In fact, you didn't even
really consider the consequences of sharing the information that you
were privy to I didn't.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I mean, I just really thought that at the end
of the day, no damage was done. It was very
clear that I did what I did for the greater good,
and that you know, I was definitely going to lose
my job, but did not imagine the statements that the
government would then make about me and my character following this.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
And at this time in your life, were you familiar
with people like Julian Assange.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So on the surface Yet, yes, I knew about Edward
Snowden and Chelsea Manning, but because of a technicality, they
were able to keep us from knowing any of the
specifics about these individuals. Every week or so, especially when
the news cycle would be very much focused on one
of those individuals.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
That if you read this.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Washington Post article and it was derived off of classified
information and you read it on your personal device, you
are then carrying around classified information and you could be
charged with the Espionos Act.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So it was a.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Way to make sure that we were kept in the
dark on what life is like when you're charged with
these sort of crimes, and that I didn't know anything
about Snowden or Chelsea at all. I didn't know what
their legal defense was like I didn't really know what
they had gone through. I was just kind of acting
in the dark at that point.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
And the reason that you acted was because you felt.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
What I felt like, if the American people had the
information on that document and they could see it in
black and white, that a would answer a question that
was I felt like it was burning a hole in
our society in twenty seventeen, and I wanted to give
(11:18):
the American people a way to decode media bias if
they had the full story that they could see, like
the people I trust on the TV aren't giving me
the whole story, Like I can see everything right here,
and they're leaving half of it out.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
And so can you take us through what happened on
that Saturday morning after you had printed this, So you
had printed the document with it on a Friday right
in your office.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I had actually printed it on like a Monday or Tuesday,
and I think I mailed it out on a Tuesday night,
and it wasn't for about two and a half weeks
until the FBI came to my house.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
And I think we should also point out, you know,
the the intercept, which is who you sent the document
to kind of was like, yeah, they bungled the situation.
They have all these high level people who know how
to handle whistleblowers, and your document went to two journalists
who did not know how to do that, and instead
their mistake wound up eventually in your conviction.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Mistake, it was not a mistake, it was on purpose.
It's by design. I was the third, well, actually Terry
was the third, but there were three of us in
a very short succession that were sort of outed by
their incompetence but then championed by them. So they would
create victims and martyrs and then try to be the
(12:41):
only media outlet fairly reporting on them.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So take us through what happened to you on that
Saturday when the FBI did show up at your house
because you were getting ready to go on a date
that night.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Anyway, exactly the ultimate ghosting. That's funny.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, uh, not only did I not show up, but
he was probably interrogated as well, poor guy.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Oh true.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
So I parked with my groceries and immediately a black
vehicle comes up behind my car and parks me in,
and Garret and Taylor come out. They introduced themselves, They
showed the warrant and I knew what it was about, obviously,
because I had done the thing. But they said they
were looking for documents, and I was like, who, I
(13:30):
only had one document and I sent it out like
That's kind of one of the reasons why I was
just so compliant. I was just like, okay, search my house.
The only thing that started to get scary was that
there were eleven men. I was pretty sure all of
them were armed, and the government was very quick to
(13:52):
correct me. Of the eleven agents, only nine of them
were armed. Only nine, Only nine. So I was lying again,
you know me, I just can't stop telling lies. And
they kept leaving my doors open, and I had just
sort of had my early twenties awakening of the injustices
of this country and understood that when the police or
(14:19):
the FBI, when someone from the government kills you, they
have the only control of the narrative. And so I
knew that these men were leaving my doors open and
interacting with a dog that had previously been extremely aggressive
to men, and that if my cat had gotten out
and if I had like run down the street after her,
(14:42):
would they shoot me in the back. If I became
emotional about how they were taking care of my animals,
or if I thought they were going to shoot my dog,
would they shoot me and then you know, try me,
I know, basically posthumously convict me in the news cycle
the next day they had interrogated me.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I did confess.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I thought that because they looked like the guys that
I worked with at NSA, if I just was straight
with them, that whatever was coming next in a court
or whatever, I could figure out and it would be
a normal legal process. And that was when Garrick told me,
(15:27):
we're going to have to take you in. You're going
to go in this vehicle over here, so nondescript, unmarked
black vehicle. He said it was going to be okay
because my hands would be cuffed in the front and
not the back, and that he would be sitting next
to me the whole time, and that he wanted to
apologize because it would be a bit of a drive.
(15:49):
What little I did know about Chelsea Manning was that
when they first took her, she was in solitary confinement
in Quantico for nine months and nobody knew where she was.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
So when he.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Said that reassuring statement, I understood that I was going
to Quantico that night. And nobody would know where I was.
That was not the case, and even if they had
intended to drive me to the jail themselves, the last
remaining part of the warrant was a search of my person,
(16:25):
and obviously I was kind of in between dates, so
I wasn't wearing much. A visual search would have been
just fine, but a female, a woman, had to do it.
So that was when they called a nearby deputy from
the Richmond County Sheriff's office, and I don't know what
it was, but she came and assessed the situation, and
(16:48):
she took me to a private room and patted me
down and executed the search warrant on my person, and
she came out and had a conversation that I couldn't hear.
And shortly after that, another Shaff's Department vehicle came up,
and another female officer came out and she said, Hey,
I'm going to be the one taking you to jail.
(17:10):
So for the first time, women were on the scene,
uniforms were on the scene, marked vehicles were on the scene,
and the word jail was spoken. And I mean, honestly,
that was the first time I knew that I was
going to survive that.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Night, because so that's okay, So okay, it's a paper
trail and a record.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yeah, so I knew my parents could find me.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Then your poor parents, My god, I mean honestly, watching
your I mean, I want to make you feel bad
because I'm sure you have enough guilt to deal with
about with regard to your parents. But what your mother
and your stepfather? Is it your stepfather? Yeah, yeah, I
went through is just like I wouldn't wish that on
any mother, you know, and fighting so hard on your
(17:56):
behalf and having to hear and also you know coming Really,
there is just nothing better than a good mother. There
really is no nothing better in life than having a
good mother. It's more important than a good father. A
good mother is everything. Because she wasn't going to let
you compromise your values or your goals either. She wasn't
(18:16):
going to let you take a deal, which you were
given the opportunity to do.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I was initially upfront and then later again, like in
November of twenty seventeen, offered five years, and we had
tried some legal strategies to get that down to four years,
and it did not work.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
And so when you were given that sentence for basically
telling the truth. How did you wrap your mind around
that psychologically? I know you talk about in the documentary
and in the book you did as well about contemplating
suicide and the one thing you didn't want to do
was hurt yourself, kill yourself while your mother was alone
(18:55):
in your house, which I thought was just like, oh
my god.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
They didn't want your mother to like get get that
information while she was Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, I think that at that moment in time, the
only thing I knew I was going to do it,
and the only thing I was in control of was
the timing where my mother would be when she got
the news. We had just gotten word that I would
be denied bail again and that I would probably never
(19:22):
leave that jail except to go to prison or to trial.
And I said, I can't do this anymore. And so
I started planning and doing dry runs of my suicide.
And the last piece of the puzzle was, Hey, I'm
not getting out on bail.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
You need to go back to Texas.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
You need to go home and get the house in order,
and you know, we'll figure this out later.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
You know, my attorneys will do some stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
And she put it off by a week, and then
she put it off by another week, and then she
put off by another week, and then she started like
working at a dog shelter and thinking about adopting a
dog in Georgia. And it was like those three weeks
where I was actively trying to get her to start
driving and doing that. Other stuff was going on in
(20:11):
those three weeks, and I had kind of hit a
rock bottom, which involved me screaming and punching a door
after an officer, and I came out and told one
of my attorneys, this is what's going on when you
guys call me to the courthouse for this. I can't
go outside to yard call. And I know you guys
(20:33):
are sick and tired of me saying that I want
to go outside. I'm beliemic. I can't do this anymore.
I'm belieming. I'm not functioning, I'm not surviving. And you know,
luckily people on my legal team were very close to
that particular illness, and you know, you think about like,
(20:57):
you know, men don't take eating disorder seriously. They have
very intimate knowledge of how deadly bolimia is, and they said,
this is not okay, Like you were very sick and
this has to be taken care of. And when they
started initiating that type of care and that type of consideration,
I can't say things got better, but I feel like
(21:21):
the moment I came out, it felt like all the
drive in me to kill myself had just kind of
gone away.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
And then how did that impact your eating disorder when
you were in jail or prison at this point? Once
you told everybody, then what happened with your eating disorder?
Speaker 1 (21:40):
You know, it's so difficult, like even in normal daily life,
like you come out about something like that, like obviously
you can't just like not eat, you know what I mean.
It's not like it's not like being like, oh, I'm
addicted to myth, you know what I mean. People are
going to watch you to see if you're doing myth.
If you're like, oh I have bolimia, people want to
see if you're eating right. It's never really like a relief.
(22:00):
It just cuts some tension. And I was medicated, and
my legal team altered their interactions with me in a
way that would not disrupt the daily schedule of the prison.
Then they understood that when they came to have legal
(22:23):
meetings with me or when they were calling me to
the courthouse and I would miss yard call or being
able to go outside. They stopped doing that. They said,
we are going to meet her on her own terms,
and we're only going to try to meet with her
after she's gone outside to go run or exercise, and
just things like that. It made enough of a difference
(22:45):
to get me through the winter of twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
And you talk a lot about the exercise and that
kind of replacing your addiction in a sense, I mean,
were you able to actually stop throwing up at that
point or did you continue on for a while.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I was able to not throw up and to continue
to exercise it an intensity that allowed me to eat.
And that was another pressing issue of with my disordered eating,
having very severe OCD. As to what I would even
put into my body, I don't even think clinically I
(23:23):
could get my hands on enough food that I was
willing to eat to do a proper binge. So it
was pretty much just trying not to throw up the
one meal I would eat that day.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
Right, because you talk about how it was difficult to
get not only like kosher meals, but like meals that
didn't have meat or didn't it that had things that
you could eat that you were okay eating.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I mean, it's crazy, but as a federal inmate, that
County jail was required to give me a substitute protein
and not just more rice or more corn. When I
got to federal prison where it is regulated, there's chicken
or there's baked beans, right, they have to have that
on the line. It didn't make it easier because you
(24:07):
would be discriminated against if you dared hold up the
line to ask for the alternative, because they're just throwing
chicken on trays and trying to push everybody through. You
just got to have a thick skin. And there were
several really tense standoffs with officers because, like I said,
(24:28):
I dared to ask for the beans.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
This week, we're looking for questions from writers. Whether you're
an up and coming writer or you do it for
a living, Please write into Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail
dot com.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Did you make any friends in prison? Lots?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, people you still keep in touch with absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I went and ran a half marathon with one of
my friends, Stephanie, and my family got to meet her
and they added her on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
She's great, she's doing so I'm so proud of her.
Oh wow, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
So talk to us about what it was like to
come out of PRISM after spending that much time there.
When you did come out four years ago, talk to
us a little bit about leading up to that moment
and then the actuality. I know, you have ideas, people
talk about these kinds of huge changes that you have
ideas of what it's going to be like, and then
the reality of what it is like can be kind
(25:22):
of counterintuitive to a degree absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I mean, when you're inside those four walls of the prison,
it's like, give me an ankle monitor, I don't care.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
I would do anything just to be home.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
And in the year leading up to my release, the
COVID pandemic had happened. We had had several unwarranted lockdowns
and being put in county jail type conditions all over again,
and I had just become so disruptive and violent and
using drugs, getting girlfriends, getting into fights that But by
(26:01):
the time that version of me walked out of that prison,
I was almost unrecognizable to my family. Even mild disagreements
would get loud with me.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I didn't know how to relate.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Because the things that I thought were funny, were like,
you know, I mean, they were so inappropriate all the time,
which was fine, but I don't think anybody gave me
or my family the vocabulary to sort of talk through
the process of decompressing. A huge trauma leading up to
(26:35):
my release is that I spent twenty three days in
a single hospital room as part of a COVID quarantine procedure.
It was just so desocializing to a certain extent, and
I feel like, not ashamed, but just like God, the
person I had to become to get through that with
(26:59):
any type of stability or you know, we were we
were literally like, oh, okay, you're gonna put us in
a room like mental patients.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
We're gonna act like mental patients. I mean we did.
And then to come out.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
The pressure was if your parents do anything public, if
they announced that you're home, we might not be able
to keep you at home. At every step of the way,
that halfway house threatened my ability to be on home confinement.
I did two drug tests a week. I was not
ever authorized to drive myself, so my parents had to
(27:34):
take off work to drive an hour and an hour back.
Just constant drug testing when I didn't even have a
drug charge it like, yes, I know I did drugs, right,
Like we can all say like, oh, she did drugs
while she was in It's in the memoir. At that
point in time, I'm like, the federal government had zero
documentation of substances being in my body, but I'm being
(27:54):
tested constantly if the ankle monitor would buzz, if it
would be on low battery. One time, I missed a
phone call because I was on the phone with my boss,
and I called the guy back and he was like, Okay,
well I had already documented as having escaped. I was
constantly under so much pressure from the top down, from
(28:17):
the government down, that the only way that pressure could
come out was sideways. And so my family were they
were the sideways.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
They they.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
They were in my line of fire since I couldn't
do anything to ease the government pressure off of me.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
So things were really toxic those first six months. Wow,
how about your sister.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Luckily she was protected out of the picture. She was
in North Carolina. She did bring her my niece down,
her daughter, she brought her down to visit. I got
to meet my niece for the first time or a
second time, because they surprised me getting out of prison.
She and baby were there waiting outside the prison. For me,
(29:04):
I know for her it was hard, but she also
had a one year old daughter, so that probably gave
her a really nice little buffer zone between the absolute
dumpster fire that I was.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
And what do you think what was the shift that
happened after about six months?
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Just did it start to depress your eyes?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Like everything surrounding your case and you're kind of like
their oversight of you.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I think a really big part of it was, yes,
I secretly married Carlos in my backyard and then sixty
seven days later that relationship fell apart, and you know,
my parents didn't talk about it, but I think that
once it had completely fallen apart, you know, day sixty seven,
(29:55):
I said, okay, like his shit is out of this house,
like I made him come get it, and you know,
was like, I'm going to start figuring out how to
secretly get divorced from my living room. Right, it felt
like one of the biggest barriers between me and my
parents was lifted. And honestly, like it's really ugly to
(30:16):
say this, but a big part of it was the
fact that he had a daughter who was she was
four at the time, and he would bring her over,
and you know, my mother felt like I wasn't supposed
to bond to this child. Well, my sister and her
baby existed, Like, oh, you got out of prison, you
(30:38):
got to meet your baby niece. Oh, but now you're
playing stepbom to a four year old, Like I thought
you wanted to be an aunt for your sister's baby.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Or were you in any condition to be in that
role in the first place.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Well, I was fucking better than he was at it,
that's for fucking sure. But when I found out he
was getting high again and stuff like that, I mean,
you know it, and part of getting married, I knew
he was terrible. But I thought again, like, this girl
was brilliant four years old, taught herself how to read.
(31:12):
Her mom really didn't want to be a mom, which
is why she was. She spent ninety percent of her
time with her alcoholic high you know, piece of shit father,
And I just thought, well, god damn, like, even with
this inkle monitor, I'm better than both of them combined.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
And isn't it amazing though, when you think back and
look at that kind of decision making, like marrying Carlos
in the first place, Like when you look at your
the state that you were in, how newly out of
prison you were, what your parents must have thought about that.
I mean, you know you discussed that too, and it's obvious,
(31:51):
But when you look back at that decision making, don't
you just know that you were in no position to
make any of those decisions, Like you were dealing with
so much much trauma that you hadn't even begun to unearth.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, and I think that when someone's drowning in trauma,
the worst thing you can do is point out that
they're traumatized, right, and that I was. I hate it
when people say this, but they do say it innate
thinking patterns. The way you think and operate as an
inmate is you find what you want and you find
(32:27):
a way to secure it in a way that an
officer or a position of authority cannot take it away
from you. So I knew that I wanted to be
with Carlos and I wanted to be a family to
that little girl. And I was just thinking like, hey,
my parents can't say anything if we're married, but b
if I do wind up backing custody, the government can
(32:50):
never deny me access to the two of them if.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
We're legally married. Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
So it was the absolutely like you just grab something
and you're just like, no, you can't take this away
from me because I have this legal document and you're
constantly trying to be two steps ahead of the police.
And that's where that decision making was from. And again,
as a family unit, nobody had that sort of nobody
(33:19):
had the vocabulary to sit me down and say, nobody's
going to take him away from you. We don't like him,
we don't agree with him, we're not going to let
you go back into custody, but nobody's going to make
it illegal for you guys to interact. And because I
didn't get that assurance, I married him secretly, and once
(33:40):
that disintegrated, I felt like everything got better with my
parents obviously, like the way relationships go. We did see
each other one more time, and that was when I
saw first hand the way he was going to use
(34:00):
access to his daughter to get behavior that he wanted
from me. And that was when I walked away permanently
and I never saw either of them again.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Wow, it's like trauma on top of trauma on top
of trauma.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
I just keep asking for it. I make shit decisions.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
No, no, no, no, You're going to get better at
making life decisions you already have. You're going to get better.
That's just a period in time that's not permanent. Nothing's permanent.
You know, Look you're out. This is different. I mean,
I have a lot of faith in your future, do you?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
I mean, I guess I think you just lead. You're
just such a heart leader.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
You know, you lead with your heart so much that
that's been your issue. I think you know with when
you say you're terrible at making decisions, lead you're making
decisions with your heart rather than using your head. But
with all of this experience that you now have, you're
going to make better decisions.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
It's like a math equation.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
You're smart. You're too smart to keep repeating those decisions.
And I don't think the first decision was necessarily framed
as a bad decision.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
It was like you based on the courage of your convictions.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
That was what I believed it. I wouldn't frame that
as bad. You just didn't realize the consequences. So it
was it was naive, as you say, it was young,
but it wasn't like you did something wrong.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
You didn't do something wrong.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
You know, I would like to think that I would
have those same convictions in your situation. So now where
are you? Where are you with all of your trauma?
How do you feel about everything? And how do you
feel about your life moving forward? And how do you
frame the past?
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So one of the best parts about being back in
my hometown is I get to be anonymous. People when
they realized that I'm reality winner, it's usually like, oh,
your Billy's daughter, and so everybody wants to know how
my mom and my sister are doing. People don't really
make the connection to what I did. The people down
here are very concerned, but they also don't follow national
(36:02):
news there, which has kind of been my hiding place.
I'm just coach ree and I've been coaching CrossFit now
for four years. It's it's a cult, but it's also
what keeps me from being bulliemic. It's like the only
cure that I've ever found so far. And you know,
(36:22):
I rescue dogs and I recently started a veterinary technology
program at the local university, which is the hardest thing
I've ever done. And the travel restrictions are even more
like I'm not traveling, I'm not going anywhere, Like, I
basically signed up for three more years of federal probation.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
What do you mean basically signed up?
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Literally, if you miss more than two days, you're out
of the program, the vet tech program. Yes, I felt
more nervous asking for one day of missed class to
go on book tour the week of publication than I
ever did asking my probation officer to try.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
You said you were surprised that they used the dog
in the movie, that that they had the dog in
the movie.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Why did that surprise you?
Speaker 4 (37:07):
Or that they had to stealing a dog in the movie, Yeah,
which you had never done at that time.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Oh yeah, I hadn't actually never stolen a dog. My
friends stole a dog for me back in May, and
I just thought that was like a funny continuation of
like how that movie played out. That was the only
scene I've ever seen from that movie. I just thought
it was so delightful, and.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
It is delightful. It is. It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
I wasn't even really into animal rescue at the time
of my arrest. You know, it's just kind of been
a self fulfilling prophecy. Like the more people talk about it,
the more I started doing it in my own life.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
And what do you think or like some of like
what do you think is your biggest takeaway from spending
all that time locked up and being treated as a criminal,
Like what do you think that did to your spirit?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Like do you feel stronger now?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I don't necessarily feel stronger. I do feel a little
bit more brittle, kind of like I know, if you
hit this glass against the table the right way, it's
going to shatter. You know, I know what can take
me down really quickly. You know, I've often said, like
what doesn't kill you just doesn't kill you. But I
(38:22):
do think that getting to interact with people from a
background that I never would have before and sort of
breaking down, Like I mean, when I was growing up,
I was constantly just around other brilliant children, even in
high school. You know, all my friends right now are
like they're all doctors. They're just insanely successful people. And
(38:47):
even in the military, being around other people like me
that could learn languages. I've never been around normal people
until I was in that county jail. And that's kind
of what burst my bubble and helped me understand my
own country. I thought I was interested in social justice,
(39:09):
in the United States, and then I got locked up,
and I got really interested in it very fast, because
you do realize that what is happening to millions of
other Americans can happen to you at any time, and
that all of us are one interaction with law enforcement
away from being in solitary confinement without legal justification.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
And what we're seeing now with.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
You know, these ice rates going on, and you know
citizens getting detained under immigration law, which is ridiculous. Like,
it's so scary right now, to the point to where
I never thought that this is where we were going
as a country. My basic understanding was, yeah, if they
(39:55):
charge you with the crime, they can do anything to
you after that. And now they don't even have to
charge you.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Oh it is Yeah, that's very scary to think about,
especially when you put it like that.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
What do you want out of life now that you
have one? Honestly, I just want to know that.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
My community is a better place because I'm in it,
And like most people, I want to be comfortable in
my life. I want enough to get by. I want
to fence in my ten acres and open a dog sanctuary,
you know. I mean, my view of the world has
gotten a lot smaller with this criminal conviction, not being
(40:41):
able to have the high positions that I wanted to do.
I can't even coach troubled kids. You know, I can't
be a mentor yet you have to have ten years
clearance from your last day of your sentence. My sentence
didn't end until last November, so in twenty thirty four
(41:03):
I might be eligible to be a mentor for children
caught up in the criminal justice system.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
I'm surprised they allowed you to write a book. I
am allowed.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
I can't make any money from it, and the NSA
took two years to clear that manuscript.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Really, you'll make it, So where does the money go?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
So I gave everything to my agent because I love him,
not in a weird, like rep creepy way, but he
found me and he didn't even know I couldn't make
money from it. This was all conversations we had later
on once we found a publisher. As of right now,
I don't have any documentation to say otherwise, but proceeds
(41:42):
from this book will go to charity. We just we
waited two years for the NSA to clear the manuscript.
When the time comes, we will make a statement on
which charities are and you know what percent of proceeds
and how that works out legally. But I do plan
on being as transparent as possible.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
And do you want to have a family.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I have eight dogs, three cats, and somebody named Eddie.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
So is that a man in your life or is
that another animal? He's a man? Unfortunately, No, no, no, no,
that's not unfortunate. I'm glad that you have someone that
you care about. I want that for you, and I
also just want you to like you're an inspiration. You know.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
I hope you do feel that way.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
I just am like looking back, like I could have
done things so much better, and I could have been
somebody that the government couldn't say these terrible things about
even though ninety nine percent of them weren't true. You know,
it's really hard to continually absorb the things that were
said about you in the courtroom that are like there's
(42:56):
just enough truth in that statement, like to where you
actually just believe everything they said about you. And I'm
still reckoning with that today. Like I said, I don't
use my name in a lot of social situations, and
just admitting that I went to prison, you know, the
biggest compliment that I get is if I bring it up,
(43:18):
people just think I went for like meth, and I'm like,
I'm willing to go along with that, Like yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Sure, no, no, it's so much more than that, because
I mean, I don't think you're taking into account that
you survived all of this.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
You know, of course it's not ideal.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Of course, you don't want anyone to be saying, you know,
to be propagating lies or perpetuating lies about you.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
No, but you survived all of this.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
You have a job, and you care about your like
place in the community. Look at all these animals that
you're helping, like your parent, you're with your family, you know, like,
there's so many good things. Even though this is not
an ideal situation, and you would if you had to
repeat it, you would not have repeated it. You are
here with us today and there are lessons for you
to still continue to learn, and your story, like sharing
(44:05):
this book with the world is going to be tremendously
helpful I think, and cathartic for your healing process. I mean,
I'm assuming you're already in therapy. I mean, you'd have
to be right. You have been in therapy for a while.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Yeah, therapy and me don't get along well because for
three years of probation, I was court ordered to do it.
I had to be in a program without being provided
the health care for it, so I was like a
lot of paying out of pocket. So like for me,
it just let such a bad taste in my mouth.
But I have been able to kind of get my
veterans benefits back up and running.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Oh that's great. Yeah, so I was properly.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Diagnosed last fall and have been doing a lot better
with my mental health and a sort of regimen for that.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
And you need to reclaim that too, you know, you
need to reclaim therapy because that's yours for the taking,
not theirs to leave a bad taste in your mouth.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, I mean, I'll just do a bunch of podcasts
till I feel better about myself.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Absolutely, just keep talking and talking and spreading the good word.
Speaker 4 (45:07):
Well, and Chelsea, I think you're so right. Like this book,
I feel like is such a turning point where ten
twenty years down the road, you may have a better
understanding of why you went through what you went through,
but this is just the beginning of that. Like, this
feels like a starting point, A commencement, like we talked about.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
So we have to figure out what commencement means because
I'm still I keep looking up that word.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I'm like, is it a beginning or then? But no reality.
I think that it's so funny that your name is
Reality Winner.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
I mean, honestly, try to be anonymous with a name
like reality Winner, right, But I really do think like
you haven't seen I know you've been out for four years,
but you haven't seen the lessons that are going to
come from this just yet. And to be open to
whatever comes your way, and the fact that you're so
open and so willing to share your story and that
you don't Yes, of course there's bitterness, but you don't
(46:00):
come across as someone who is bitter and enveloped in.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Your bitterness, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (46:06):
You're loving and you're sweet and like and to remain
to have those things remaining within you is quite a
feat and it speaks volumes about your true character and
who you really are as opposed to all of the
things that have been said about you that are not true.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, I think twenty twenty five for me has been
difficult because we're right back in the same position we
were in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
And of course it's very triggering for you, so triggering.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
I mean, one of the jokes we have is like,
you know, the last time around, I only made it
four months before I broke.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
The law, and I think, right now, lady doubled your time?
Are eight months?
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Well? I know I have little tick marks, you know
what I mean. But it's like the guilt of that
then was like last time I was willing to act,
and now, like so many millions of Americans, I don't
want to lose everything all over again.
Speaker 3 (47:02):
I don't, right, you know, am I supposed to be
out there? I mean?
Speaker 1 (47:07):
And of course where I live in the middle of nowhere.
You know, we're not in a big city. We're not
in LA We're not Chicago. Right now, what am I
supposed to do? Am I supposed to drive to Chicago
and put my body between victims and masked agents, masked kidnappers?
You know?
Speaker 3 (47:25):
No, I mean, here's what am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2 (47:28):
You've done what you're supposed to do. You're not supposed
to be involved in anything else. You need to keep
yourself safe and sane. That's your main objective, and take
care of all of your animals and have a good
time with your boyfriend. That's what I want you to do.
That is your doctor's orders. I'm a medical professional. I'm
actually not so I can't say that, but I think
I am so. But that's You've done your You've done
(47:49):
your time, literally, and you've done your contribution to society.
Leave that up to everybody else and just focus on
getting yourself healthy and as happy as possible, because I
want you to have.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
A really full life. And you know you're still young.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
You have a whole life ahead of you, and this
guy's not going to be president for the rest of
our lives. This is only a four year stint, even
though you know other things have so just don't even
you know that's not your problem anymore.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
But I do want to thank you.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
I want all of our listeners to pick up a
copy of I Am Not Your Enemy by Reality Winner.
This book is really important and it's important to just
if you care about your country, it's important to read.
And if you care about being a strong woman who
has stands up for something and has convictions, it's important
for you to read.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
And it's a story about surviving.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
It really is You're a survivor and you went through
you went through hell and you're still here to talk
about it, and that in and of itself just shows
that you have a purpose. And so thank you for
coming on the podcast. And I really wish you all
the best.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Thank you so much for having me. I mean, like,
I'm such a huge fan and I just really appreciate
you taking the time.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
Absolutely pleasure.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
And I was just when I met Susannah and she's like, oh,
will you moderate this film? I just I was like,
oh my god, Yes, I know that story. So I
was just yeah, thrilled to be a part of that
as well. And I'm going to text her right now
as soon as we get off and let her know
that I got to meet you.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Hey, can't wait to see her next week.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Oh good, you're gonna see her? Okay, tell her, I
say hi, will you I will? Okay, Okay, bye, Reality,
Thank you so much, sending you huge love.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Bye, Thank you bye.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
I put up new Vegas dates by the way for
next year. This year, I will be there November first
and November twenty ninth. Those are my last two dates
this year. Then I start up again January thirty, first,
March seventh, April eighteenth, and May thirtieth, and tickets are
now on sale for all.
Speaker 3 (49:44):
Of those dates. Do you want advice from Chelsea?
Speaker 4 (49:47):
Right into Dear Chelsea Podcast at gmail dot com. Find
full video episodes of Dear Chelsea on YouTube by searching
at Dear Chelsea Pod. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered
by Brad Dickert executive pretty Katherine law And be sure
to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com
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